S15.E18: Despair

[S Cook Productions]

5 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

My interpretation, now that I’ve just finished watching the whole episode:  Cas, realising death is coming via Billie, acknowledges that the one thing he felt he couldn’t have was a happy, peaceful life with his family, but has an epiphany - he had that family, he loved that family, and therefore he’s happy at that, albeit retrospective, thought.  He didn’t realise what he had til he had to give up his life to protect them.  Just my thoughts.

Yes. I agree with this. 

[ahrtee]

Basically then,   Cas is Pinocchio and Dean is his blue fairy.   Knowing Dean was making him understand and appreciate humans, maybe even want to become one, but he would/ could never actually be a "real boy. "  (Even during the time he lost his grace and became mortal, I doubt if he was given a human soul, so he still wouldn't be "real".)  Maybe that's what he could never have.   🤔

[Terese]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

This does make it seem that way, a way I didn’t personally see it originally (but I’m not a shipper). Where did this script side come from? Do we know it’s legit? At any rate, I think it was totally meant to be ambiguous. The shippers can be happy, and casual viewers like my friends and family just saw a nice tear-jerker scene that they loved but didn’t for one minute take it to be more than familial love. So I guess they figured that would be a win-win. Also, didn’t Dabb joke once that he thought the finale eps would make 30% of the audience happy? Maybe destielers make up about 30%? 🤷🏼‍♀️

 

It is my understanding, as referenced by many, that this is a fake script circulating around.

[BabySpinach]

8 minutes ago, Terese said:

It is my understanding, as referenced by many, that this is a fake script circulating around.

Yup, just discovered this myself. What a waste of time spent analyzing it! Though I guess it says something that the mushy way it was written seemed like it could be legit. Dabb's assistant certainly helped see to that.

[takalotti]

Scene with the empty playground with equipment still moving...

Hubs: So they’re the only people left?

Me: They’re going to have to repopulate the earth!

Hubs: But there’s no women left. 

Me: Life finds a way.
 

😂

Edited November 7, 2020 by takalotti

[SueB]

I thought it was a beautiful ending for Cas.  I also think there was something for everyone in how it was written. 
 

I just LOVED the callback to Dean’s nature changing someones’s existence. 
- Once again it’s Dean’s embodiment of AGAPE (self-sacrificing LOVE) that shapes destiny.  He absolutely shaped Castiel’s existence after they met by just being himself.  Dean was the perfect man in that regard.  His love for others, his passionate protection of humanity.  Cas experienced love because of Dean.  And as @ahrtee suggested, Cas realized all he had to do was to speak his truth to Dean, to get Dean to understand what a gift loving him was — that’s all he needed for happiness.  I loved how Misha played it like an epiphany.  Cas was so CERTAIN he had found his happiness.  And knowing that this happiness would SAVE DEAN made it a joyeous Death.  Cas died with no regrets, he went out like a Boss.  Damn but I love that Angel. 

I also really felt the growing despair as they realized the odds were cosmically bad.  Sam said just the perfect thing to take the sting out of Dean’s guilt.  And he had Rowena’s spells with him!   For some reason, Sam’s instinct to gather and protect felt like a callback to when they destroyed the Croatoan virus in S5.  He was reaching out again and again to protect people.  It’s his instinct.  It felt very ‘Sam’.  Pure hearted.  
 

Jack blowing up the Empty appears to be the visual we’ve been seeing as the title card all year.  Like he torn up the fabric of reality.  
 

i was fine with Lisa’s performance as Death.  She was ‘Classic Death’ at the start — cool and mysterious.  But once cut, it’s like she said ‘f*ck it (the rules).  I’m going to get some payback. I was a wee distracted from her pregnant body - the sweater was a little clingy over her baby bump, but I thought she played her rage very well.  
 

From my perspective, we know the show is ending.  I couldn’t stand the notion of Cas living forever after Dean (eventually) dies.  Going out in a blaze of agape love was a perfect ending IMO for the awkward Angel of Thursday. 

[Terese]

11 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Yup, just discovered this myself. What a waste of time spent analyzing it! Though I guess it says something that the mushy way it was written seemed like it could be legit. Dabb's assistant certainly helped see to that.

A fanfiction hack is a fanfiction hack no matter where they are. Some are even employed by TV shows.

[Terese]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

This does make it seem that way, a way I didn’t personally see it originally (but I’m not a shipper). Where did this script side come from? Do we know it’s legit? At any rate, I think it was totally meant to be ambiguous. The shippers can be happy, and casual viewers like my friends and family just saw a nice tear-jerker scene that they loved but didn’t for one minute take it to be more than familial love. So I guess they figured that would be a win-win. Also, didn’t Dabb joke once that he thought the finale eps would make 30% of the audience happy? Maybe destielers make up about 30%? 🤷🏼‍♀️

 

I think they just feel like 30% There's probably only about 7 of them.

[Frost]

Why does the Empty have to follow Death's orders?  Castiel got sucked into the Empty because of his deal with Death to save Jack's life, correct?  But now that he's there, who says he has to stay?  The Empty wants revenge on Death/Billie - which it can now get because Castiel maneuvered Billie into getting sucked into the Empty along with him - and then wants to go back to sleep.  Isn't Castiel tramping around the Empty for eternity going to disturb the second part of that plan?   I'm not so sure an alive Castiel won't get spit back out by the finale.  

[Terese]

10 minutes ago, Frost said:

Why does the Empty have to follow Death's orders?  Castiel got sucked into the Empty because of his deal with Death to save Jack's life, correct?  But now that he's there, who says he has to stay?  The Empty wants revenge on Death/Billie - which it can now get because Castiel maneuvered Billie into getting sucked into the Empty along with him - and then wants to go back to sleep.  Isn't Castiel tramping around the Empty for eternity going to disturb the second part of that plan?   I'm not so sure an alive Castiel won't get spit back out by the finale.  

Death promised the end of God, among other things, and didn't deliver. Taking Billie for revenge doesn't really solve its problem.  I don't think it should be satisfied enough to go back to sleep. Unless something fundamentally is different about Jack, he could reawaken Cas and the Empty could toss him out again. How many times is it going to want to do that? Too many inconsistencies about the nature of the Empty, compounded by vague writing renders all of this too difficult to accept or speculate. Too much is conveniently glossed over or dropped as needed.

[The Companion]

26 minutes ago, Frost said:

Why does the Empty have to follow Death's orders?  Castiel got sucked into the Empty because of his deal with Death to save Jack's life, correct?  But now that he's there, who says he has to stay?  The Empty wants revenge on Death/Billie - which it can now get because Castiel maneuvered Billie into getting sucked into the Empty along with him - and then wants to go back to sleep.  Isn't Castiel tramping around the Empty for eternity going to disturb the second part of that plan?   I'm not so sure an alive Castiel won't get spit back out by the finale.  

Cas made a deal with the empty. Jack woke Castiel whose consciousness woke The Empty. He then made a deal with The Empty.

[7kstar]

22 hours ago, Terese said:

But, how is this any different from any other work place? People resign all the time from situations that compromise the product and their own integrity. They quit, broke their contracts, returned the money, went to court if needs be. They need to step in for themselves or step out. They are not children; no one needs to step in for them, but them. 

One big issue is that if you are always making a big deal about the lines and such, you get labeled as hard to work with.  If you are breaking contracts, then others don't want to hire you.  Blacklisting is real for the acting world.

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They penalties for contract breaking by an actor are pretty high. That would cost them several millions, not just their salary.

I do agree on how they shouldn't have signed on anymore the last time. But alas, that would have also put many people out of jobs.

I'm judging the writers here the most. Noone forced them to do a terrible product.

Some of the shows that people loved and wondered why they got canceled when audiences wanted them to continue. It usually was a popular character - actor wanted to leave.   Jensen has never been that person.  I think he was very aware of others depending on the show continuing, so they had their livelihoods.  But it got to the point that going on was too much so they stopped.  Remember fans kept saying you can't end the show at conventions, demanding that they stick with it.  I think they gave as long as they could for the fans and the crew. 

We will never know everything as Jensen is smart and private on some things.  But in the world of tv, writers are the head of it all.  To change a line, you much have their consent.  They got away with some things because they weren't filming in LA.  But I didn't see them really getting much of what they would have liked just a few things here and there.

IA, I blame the writers the most.

[7kstar]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

I thought it was a beautiful ending for Cas.  I also think there was something for everyone in how it was written. 
 

I just LOVED the callback to Dean’s nature changing someones’s existence. 
- Once again it’s Dean’s embodiment of AGAPE (self-sacrificing LOVE) that shapes destiny.  He absolutely shaped Castiel’s existence after they met by just being himself.  Dean was the perfect man in that regard.  His love for others, his passionate protection of humanity.  Cas experienced love because of Dean.  And as @ahrtee suggested, Cas realized all he had to do was to speak his truth to Dean, to get Dean to understand what a gift loving him was — that’s all he needed for happiness.  I loved how Misha played it like an epiphany.  Cas was so CERTAIN he had found his happiness.  And knowing that this happiness would SAVE DEAN made it a joyeous Death.  Cas died with no regrets, he went out like a Boss.  Damn but I love that Angel. 

I also really felt the growing despair as they realized the odds were cosmically bad.  Sam said just the perfect thing to take the sting out of Dean’s guilt.  And he had Rowena’s spells with him!   For some reason, Sam’s instinct to gather and protect felt like a callback to when they destroyed the Croatoan virus in S5.  He was reaching out again and again to protect people.  It’s his instinct.  It felt very ‘Sam’.  Pure hearted.  
 

Moments to like but the ripoff of the Infinity Wars...well it seemed a bit cheap.  I did like Charlie's 2.0 scene at the beginning.  But, getting everyone together so they could all just vanish into dust.  Fail a bit.    But why?

Like everything, nothings been really set up.  It just happens and is supposed to be emotional.  I think of Ellen and Jo's send off.  It was set up.  We felt everyone connecting and then bam, the emotional ending.   But this just looks like they went oh what can we do that will make everyone sad.  Had they spent more than fifteen minutes...not sure the exact time for this moment, but the moment came and went.  I was bothered by Charlie and Donna's exit.  But at the same time I was left comparing it to the movie that did it so much better.  Not a good thing.

The ending for Cas.  I'm glad he saved Dean's life.  I'm glad he did tell Dean why he mattered and how his love changes people.  But again, it felt rushed.  The pace was off.

I didn't have a problem with Death wanting to kill Dean, and the heart would be a nice reminder of the history of the show...but still not sure it was planned.  I think since they were having to hide that she was pregnant it did make it over dramatic since you have to do closeups and that may have added to the feel of overacting.

 

I will say this ep felt stronger than last week's.  But am I holding my breath waiting for the next ep.  Nope.  There are moments I think that could be used to create a strong ending, but so far I haven't seen anything that can't be undone by strong writers.

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, 7kstar said:

Like everything, nothings been really set up.  It just happens and is supposed to be emotional......

The ending for Cas.  I'm glad he saved Dean's life.  I'm glad he did tell Dean why he mattered and how his love changes people.  But again, it felt rushed.  The pace was off......

I will say this ep felt stronger than last week's.  But am I holding my breath waiting for the next ep.  Nope.  There are moments I think that could be used to create a strong ending, but so far I haven't seen anything that can't be undone by strong writers.

Of the episodes we've been given since the return, I agree, this was a little better than expected, certainly. But the bar is so low that's not saying much. And yes, everything feels rushed because it is - because they wasted most of the rest of the season instead of making the professional adult decision that maybe they should spend the last year talking to each other and developing a slow steady burn of a final story line. Instead Dabb and Berens stuck to their guns of focusing on their pet, storytelling be damned, and ignoring the leads until they were forced to have to address them at the bitter end. I weep for what this season could have been with stronger writing and showrunning. As I said before, there's a reason Jensen wanted some of the past writers to come back and write scripts.

As for the bogus script, eh it was fun regardless. However, what gave it legitimacy is the fact that Misha had auctioned off this particular script (signed) during his M&G in Vegas, the last con that was held before everything shut down. So the pages are actually out there. And we've seen in leaked pages before where some of the stage directions are embarrassingly bad.

Bottom line, that scene was probably the best Bobo has produced in years since Dabb took over - and it was carefully written to make it ambiguous enough that anyone could read whatever they wanted into it. But my point about it having to pass WB muster remains, because things have been nixed before, and anything skirting that close to Destiel would have to be approved. So if that was Bobo's intention - and I still think it was - it had to be carefully written to be approved.

Destiel did trend most of Thursday night on twitter, and there was some funny commentary - my favorite being someone who said the US election count is taking so long that Destiel finally became canon. We Americans have to laugh at something - it's exhausting crying all the time. LOL!

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

I thought it was a beautiful ending for Cas.  I also think there was something for everyone in how it was written. 
 

I just LOVED the callback to Dean’s nature changing someones’s existence. 
- Once again it’s Dean’s embodiment of AGAPE (self-sacrificing LOVE) that shapes destiny.  He absolutely shaped Castiel’s existence after they met by just being himself.  Dean was the perfect man in that regard.  His love for others, his passionate protection of humanity.  Cas experienced love because of Dean.  And as @ahrtee suggested, Cas realized all he had to do was to speak his truth to Dean, to get Dean to understand what a gift loving him was — that’s all he needed for happiness.  I loved how Misha played it like an epiphany.  Cas was so CERTAIN he had found his happiness.  And knowing that this happiness would SAVE DEAN made it a joyeous Death.  Cas died with no regrets, he went out like a Boss.  Damn but I love that Angel. 

I also really felt the growing despair as they realized the odds were cosmically bad.  Sam said just the perfect thing to take the sting out of Dean’s guilt.  And he had Rowena’s spells with him!   For some reason, Sam’s instinct to gather and protect felt like a callback to when they destroyed the Croatoan virus in S5.  He was reaching out again and again to protect people.  It’s his instinct.  It felt very ‘Sam’.  Pure hearted.  
 

Jack blowing up the Empty appears to be the visual we’ve been seeing as the title card all year.  Like he torn up the fabric of reality.  
 

i was fine with Lisa’s performance as Death.  She was ‘Classic Death’ at the start — cool and mysterious.  But once cut, it’s like she said ‘f*ck it (the rules).  I’m going to get some payback. I was a wee distracted from her pregnant body - the sweater was a little clingy over her baby bump, but I thought she played her rage very well.  
 

From my perspective, we know the show is ending.  I couldn’t stand the notion of Cas living forever after Dean (eventually) dies.  Going out in a blaze of agape love was a perfect ending IMO for the awkward Angel of Thursday. 

Well said.

What Dean has is a superpower IMO... it changed Cas, Amara, Benny. Crowley, Ketch, Gadreel perhaps...

Dean helps those around them to change and redeem themselves...

Will it work on Chuck? Because I  think Chuck is laser focused on Dean.

Do you think Jack is NU-Death or do you think the explosion gave him weird powers?

[Castiels Cat]

12 hours ago, Smad said:

To me it's simply pandering to the fanbase. This is what Dabb has been doing during his entire run and it got worse every year. It's so obvious that this was for the Destiel crowd. And it was the most cowardly way they could have done it. They never wanted to go there while the show was actually continuing. Now that it's ending and they don't have to follow through (even for the rest of the Season since Cas is dead), they threw a bone to pander to the Destiel crowd. Despite the fact that Dabb completely ruined their relationship and Cas himself during his run. That's why this declaration of love, whatever your interpretation, is worth nothing more than eye rolls.

And yet I still believe it's the truth. Knowing Dean changed Cas and made him care. Dean is everything Cas said he is. Cas realized that he loves Dean and telling Dean that he loves him, telling Dean what he means to him and the world and being able to save his life truly makes him happy. 

The fact that they wrote it ambiguously is no surprise.

 

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I actually agree with most of the comments by everyone here.  IA that Cas wanted a deeper relationship with Dean, more intimate than just family, and he was sad since he knew he couldn't get it.   What I'm saying is that I don't think it's necessarily (or even ambiguously) physical.  As @Smad said, sexual orientations shouldn't exist for angels, since they can change genders (and preferences) with different vessels.  And I'm guessing that, if Cas really wanted a sexual relationship with Dean (and assuming that Dean also wanted to get closer) then Cas could have changed vessels years ago.  Imagine if, back in season 5 or 6, he'd been resurrected in a new vessel, as a beautiful woman.   It might be awkward at first, but after Dean recognized that he was really the same person underneath, their entire relationship would have grown in a totally different direction.  

But I'm assuming that Cas picked up his "coding" (or preferences) from Dean (and/or Jimmy), since he pretty much learned all he knows about being human from them; and that's why his interests have so far been for females, without even a hint of physical desire for men.  I do think that the show wanted to throw a bone to the Destiel group, and left Cas's declaration to be open to whatever interpretation people want.  

Personally,  I do believe that Cas wanted something more, something *deeper* with Dean than just physical sex--and (as I said before) probably the same thing that Amara wanted--a soul connection, so to speak.  That's something way beyond "romance" and more like soulmates; and it's something that humans  can't just choose to provide.  And that's why Cas knew he couldn't get it from Dean.  

Gabriel was a sex machine and Cas was married as Emmanuel (s 7).

[gonzosgirrl]

I thought the explosion took all Nougat's powers, save whatever weirdness was happening in the silo with the plant.

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought the explosion took all Nougat's powers, save whatever weirdness was happening in the silo with the plant.

I think whatever the Empty tried to do to him or maybe he took something out of the Empty accounts for his new death-esque powers.

Not that his maturity level is fit to be any cosmic being. But it looks like he will be something.

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think whatever the Empty tried to do to him or maybe he took something out of the Empty accounts for his new death-esque powers.

Not that his maturity level is fit to be any cosmic being. But it looks like he will be something.

Yeah, I get that. But his super-duper Nephilim powers are gone. So what's above most powerful being evarrrrr!

[catrox14]

Thinking about previousc episode, OG Adam said Jack would be a black hole after going supernova. I  think he did go partially supernova, and  I think that is why everyone is disappearing. He is sucking everyone into him.  If I thought Dabb was self deprecating, I would think he and Berens are low key implying Jack became the black hole of the show, but I don't think they meant it that way. I know I sure do...

 

[trudysmom]

I haven't watched yet, still too caught up in election anxiety crap.  But I've seen Cas' love declaration online, and I have to say while it was well done, the actors delivered exactly as I would expect them to, it didn't surprise me or move me much.  In Stuck in the Middle (with you), Cas say's 'I love you, I love all of you. You're my family, etc." THAT dying declaration was much more powerful, imo.  He told them that knowing them had been the best part of his life and the things they  shared had changed him.  When he killed Billie at the end of First Blood he gave a speech about how this sad, doomed little world needs all the Winchesters.  So Cas has expressed his love before, and never did I feel it was romantic, but love doesn't have to be romantic to be powerful, life-changing.  In SITM(WY), Dean's reaction was nearly identical to this scene.  He didn't respond in words, he looked away, slightly uncomfortable, but listened to Cas, let him say what he needed to say.  Which brings up a question. I've seen every episode multiple times, I can't recall a time Dean said  "I love you" to anyone besides Mary.  Did I miss it?

[Aeryn13]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, I get that. But his super-duper Nephilim powers are gone. So what's above most powerful being evarrrrr!

If they say he picked up bits and pieces from creatures in the Empty somehow, he could still pull whatever they want out of his butt. Everything is there, demons, angels, archangels, OG Death probably.

[shoetingstar]

16 hours ago, Dobian said:

Yeah the way Cas was looking at Dean in that moment I suddenly flashed back to Ricky Bobby and Jean Girard at the end of Talladega Nights lol.

LOL! and Will Ferrell almost has the same hair as Dean, except with sideburns.😂

[SueB]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Do you think Jack is NU-Death or do you think the explosion gave him weird powers?

I think the explosion changed his cosmic force.  I don’t think it’s angelic anymore.  I think he’s absorbed part of the nature of the Empty without the crazy.  The effect on the leaf was closer to an Amara effect than anything else.  So... I don’t know what it is or if he can control it.  

[foxfreakinmulder]

WTF writers with this Thanos snap sh#t.  This is probably how it went, dude, dude, let's make it like the Avengers and have Chuck snap everyone away. Dude, dude that's so cool. Far out, rock on dude. F you!!

I have to wonder if that scene between Cas and Dean was Misha's last and those were real tears because of that? I haven't been a fan of Castiel in a long time but that was a really nice end for him.

Why is the Empty still looking like Meg?

I've never cared for Billie as Death so bye-bye.

How many more episodes?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think the explosion changed his cosmic force.  I don’t think it’s angelic anymore.  I think he’s absorbed part of the nature of the Empty without the crazy.  The effect on the leaf was closer to an Amara effect than anything else.  So... I don’t know what it is or if he can control it.  

Well, with only 2 people left for it to affect, it probably doesn't matter if he can control it.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking about previousc episode, OG Adam said Jack would be a black hole after going supernova. I  think he did go partially supernova, and  I think that is why everyone is disappearing. He is sucking everyone into him.  If I thought Dabb was self deprecating, I would think he and Berens are low key implying Jack became the black hole of the show, but I don't think they meant it that way. I know I sure do...

 

That would be an actual interesting turn of events. So I give it approximately zero percent chance of happening. And the chance of Badd acknowledging the harm the character did to the show is even less likely than that. 

[falltime]

I wish I hadn't gotten spoiled by searching twitter for election stuff. I would have liked to experience it without knowing it was coming. 'I will always love you' started playing in my head during the scene. lol 

I didn't get spoiled about Castiel getting taken by the empty. I'm not convinced that this is the last we see of Castiel. I really, really hope this wasn't it. They didn't even focus on him until the end. 😞 They should stick to tradition and bring him back.

[falltime]

 

[Macbeth]

20 hours ago, 7kstar said:

One big issue is that if you are always making a big deal about the lines and such, you get labeled as hard to work with.  If you are breaking contracts, then others don't want to hire you.  Blacklisting is real for the acting world.

We will never know everything as Jensen is smart and private on some things.  But in the world of tv, writers are the head of it all.  To change a line, you much have their consent.  They got away with some things because they weren't filming in LA.  But I didn't see them really getting much of what they would have liked just a few things here and there.

IA, I blame the writers the most.

Thanks for explaining how the script is the bible that cannot be changed.  You hear all the time how scrips get rewritten on movie sets.  I didn't realize that was not an option on tv.  Although I just read a behind the scenes book on Game of Thrones,  apparently Jonathan Pryce changed a couple of words in his first scene.  Someone asked the director is he was going to ask Jonathan if he was going to say his lines as written, and the director was like hell no.  He was not correcting Jonathan Pryce on his first day on set.  And you know what.  Pryce made that scene better.

So it really sucks  that new writers really didn't know the show and gave no crap in learning its backstory (yes I heard the story about writers being advised to watch old shows while they were cleaning.)  These actors know their characters inside and out.  Canon was ignored which is why I stopped watching.  It's no wonder Jensen wanted out.

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Macbeth

[7kstar]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I didn't realize that was not an option on tv.  Although I just read a behind the scenes book on Game of Thrones,  apparently Jonathan Pryce changed a couple of words in his first scene.  Someone asked the director is he was going to ask Jonathan if he was going to say his lines as written, and the director was like hell no.  He was not correcting Jonathan Pryce on his first day on set.  And you know what.  Pryce made that scene better.

Depending on the pull of the Actor, they can get away with more.  However, I remember chatting with an executive producer/Head writer of another show and they talked about one actor's career would come to an end if he continued to pull the stunts he was pulling on their show.  He was given a lead on a new show.  It was cancelled, and he wasn't getting work.  He's done some stuff now, but now he seems to be focusing on music.  Those writers had gotten the word out and it appeared that their prediction had come true.

So yes, Jensen & Jared did change some lines here and there on the show and even got away with improvising some stuff...but there's also been plenty of evidence of times they just had to suck it up.  Which is why I stated they had an advantage of filming outside of LA.  But there have been plenty of actors that made a big deal over the lines, and suddenly their major career took a nosedive.

I got a lot of answers because I was asking as a teacher to help my drama students.  So they didn't have a problem filling me in.  In Film and Stage, the Director is the head.  They control the rewrites and stuff.  In stage after they finish with everything, the Stage Manager calls everything, and the director has moved on.  They might or might not watch the opening night of their show depending on their schedule.  So it stuck me as weird when I found out that in TV it wasn't the director in charge but the Show Runner/Head writer.  But that is because in TV, the directors don't stay but float in and out.

Jensen is smart, he has a name of working with others and a joy to work with.  That will lead to jobs. 

 

[Castiels Cat]

18 hours ago, SueB said:

I think the explosion changed his cosmic force.  I don’t think it’s angelic anymore.  I think he’s absorbed part of the nature of the Empty without the crazy.  The effect on the leaf was closer to an Amara effect than anything else.  So... I don’t know what it is or if he can control it.  

Yes... it was like Amara in the garden however when they quick cut to Death saying that she was dying... 

So Amara becomes the light and Jack the Darkness?

Amara was doing a fabulous job of being the Goddess last time we saw her.

[Macbeth]

7 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes... it was like Amara in the garden however when they quick cut to Death saying that she was dying... 

So Amara becomes the light and Jack the Darkness?

Amara was doing a fabulous job of being the Goddess last time we saw her.

I know she was - but then Chuck vacuumed her up like she was only so much dust.

I really, really wanted Chuck to die for the finale.  And I don't think that is going to happen.  

The plan was to kill Chuck at the end of S11.  But TPTB came down and said no to killing God.

Given that it's the season finale - I was hoping they could get the job done.

[Aeryn13]

Misha did some virtual panel which seemed to be, surprise, all Destiel. According to him the confession scene was the first scene written for Season 15. Seriously? And Berens told him months in advance. Again, seriously? I would get it if they wanted to discuss the character`s exit with him. Also, he sees it as 100 % romantic on Cas` part. 

Which, to be honest, you could now reframe several things in the show in a "Cas attempts to get rid of the competition" way. And even Jack would be the weird version of "a baby will bring us together". Yeesh.

[Terese]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Misha did some virtual panel which seemed to be, surprise, all Destiel. According to him the confession scene was the first scene written for Season 15. Seriously? And Berens told him months in advance. Again, seriously? I would get it if they wanted to discuss the character`s exit with him. Also, he sees it as 100 % romantic on Cas` part. 

Which, to be honest, you could now reframe several things in the show in a "Cas attempts to get rid of the competition" way. And even Jack would be the weird version of "a baby will bring us together". Yeesh.

What is a polite way of saying that Misha sounds like a media whore?

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Terese said:

What is a polite way of saying that Misha sounds like a media whore?

Misha is a world class troll.  He loves to tell  fans exactly what they want to hear and they can't tell if he's serious or not.   TBH most  believe what they want to.  

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Misha did some virtual panel which seemed to be, surprise, all Destiel. According to him the confession scene was the first scene written for Season 15. Seriously? And Berens told him months in advance. Again, seriously? I would get it if they wanted to discuss the character`s exit with him. Also, he sees it as 100 % romantic on Cas` part. 

Which, to be honest, you could now reframe several things in the show in a "Cas attempts to get rid of the competition" way. And even Jack would be the weird version of "a baby will bring us together". Yeesh.

🙄 😬

Yeesh. Indeed.

Talk about turning Kripke's once little horror show into a soap opera.  

I'll add a Yikes! to your Yeesh. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Myrelle
Nevermind

[DeeDee79]

40 minutes ago, Terese said:

What is a polite way of saying that Misha sounds like a media whore?

If that's how he's presenting himself I say screw being polite.

[Terese]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Misha is a world class troll.  He loves to tell  fans exactly what they want to hear and they can't tell if he's serious or not.   TBH most  believe what they want to.  

I suppose he is enjoying all the attention, given his character and his acting have declined so significantly. But, to pander to fringe element is just wrong. That melodramatic scene could be and probably was designed to be ambiguous. But to reduce Castiel's vicarious and ennobling experience with humanity, with Dean serving as the admired role model, into a romantic overture is unbelievably trite. Every drop of overarching meaning of this show is being systematically destroyed. I would expect a principal cast member to not endorse it. What a creep.

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, Terese said:

I suppose he is enjoying all the attention, given his character and his acting have declined so significantly. But, to pander to fringe element is just wrong. That melodramatic scene could be and probably was designed to be ambiguous. But to reduce Castiel's vicarious and ennobling experience with humanity, with Dean serving as the admired role model, into a romantic overture is unbelievably trite. Every drop of overarching meaning of this show is being systematically destroyed. I would expect a principal cast member to not endorse it. What a creep.

From what I've read over the years he's part of the reason why Cas fans won't let Destiel go. He's a pretty vocal supporter of the ship.

Edited November 8, 2020 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

Any and all flack that Jensen gets over Destiel  lies directly at Misha's feet. He knows very well how over the top intense (to put it kindly)  his fanbase is and he does nothing but encourage it. I won't speculate on his motivation,  but it's clear that he enjoys the attention, regardless of the cost to his friend. 

[Terese]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

From what I've read over the years he's part of the reason why Cas fans won't let Destiel go. He's a pretty vocal supporter of the ship.

Really? I really need to stay away from media.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Misha did some virtual panel which seemed to be, surprise, all Destiel. According to him the confession scene was the first scene written for Season 15. Seriously? And Berens told him months in advance. Again, seriously? I would get it if they wanted to discuss the character`s exit with him. Also, he sees it as 100 % romantic on Cas` part. 

Which, to be honest, you could now reframe several things in the show in a "Cas attempts to get rid of the competition" way. And even Jack would be the weird version of "a baby will bring us together". Yeesh.

I fully believe that Berens did tell him.

I don't see it that Misha is trolling or being media whore in this case, necessarily. Since I don't know the full context without seeing the panel, I can believe that he was being told to play something a certain way from Cas perspective.  Also, given Jensen doesn't read ahead generally, I can see him playing it as shocked and confused as Dean was at the end. Jensen has talked about not wanting to read too far ahead to give the most authentic performance he can.

It doesn't make me upset with Misha, and it doesn't mean Jensen refused to play anything other than what we saw.

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Any and all flack that Jensen gets over Destiel  lies directly at Misha's feet. He knows very well how over the top intense (to put it kindly)  his fanbase is and he does nothing but encourage it. I won't speculate on his motivation,  but it's clear that he enjoys the attention, regardless of the cost to his friend. 

That is a monumental lack of integrity in my book.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Any and all flack that Jensen gets over Destiel  lies directly at Misha's feet. He knows very well how over the top intense (to put it kindly)  his fanbase is and he does nothing but encourage it. I won't speculate on his motivation,  but it's clear that he enjoys the attention, regardless of the cost to his friend. 

@gonzosgirrl and @Terese exactly this.

[Terese]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Any and all flack that Jensen gets over Destiel  lies directly at Misha's feet. He knows very well how over the top intense (to put it kindly)  his fanbase is and he does nothing but encourage it. I won't speculate on his motivation,  but it's clear that he enjoys the attention, regardless of the cost to his friend. 

Thanks for saying that. I wondered about the expression on Dean's face; disbelief mingled with a tad of revulsion. Both Dean and Jensen must be horrified.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

From what I've read over the years he's part of the reason why Cas fans won't let Destiel go. He's a pretty vocal supporter of the ship.

I don't know that he has been a vocal supporter or pushing it as a Canon ship. I do know that at past conventions he's implied that Cas is in love with Dean. I can't recollect him implying that Dean is in love with Cas. So it could be that Misha does interpret it as one sided for Cas. I don't think he's throwing Dean or Jensen under the bus, if it's intended to show that Cas as an angel, came to understand human love by loving Dean.

I think those that seek to demonize Jensen over Dean not reciprocating already kind of have it in for Dean and Jensen. I don't put that all on Misha, if it really is true that Berens always intended to have Cas be in love with Dean. That's all on Berens IMO

 

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know that he has been a vocal supporter or pushing it as a Canon ship. I do know that at past conventions he's implied that Cas is in love with Dean. I can't recollect him implying that Dean is in love with Cas. So it could be that Misha does interpret it as one sided for Cas. I don't think he's throwing Dean or Jensen under the bus, if it's intended to show that Cas as an angel, came to understand human love by loving Dean.

I think those that seek to demonize Jensen over Dean not reciprocating already kind of have it in for Dean and Jensen. I don't put that all on Misha, if it really is true that Berens always intended to have Cas be in love with Dean. That's all on Berens IMO

 

He also said some things that will certainly bring more hate onto Jensen. He didn`t need to do that. Instead he could have used that platform to actually stand up for his friend. Not a word. 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know that he has been a vocal supporter or pushing it as a Canon ship. I do know that at past conventions he's implied that Cas is in love with Dean. I can't recollect him implying that Dean is in love with Cas. So it could be that Misha does interpret it as one sided for Cas. I don't think he's throwing Dean or Jensen under the bus, if it's intended to show that Cas as an angel, came to understand human love by loving Dean.

I think those that seek to demonize Jensen over Dean not reciprocating already kind of have it in for Dean and Jensen. I don't put that all on Misha, if it really is true that Berens always intended to have Cas be in love with Dean. That's all on Berens IMO

 

For the first part of your comment, I'm talking mostly about what I've read about Misha's comments on SM. I've read posts on this very site stating that he encourages support of the ship. My comment didn't say that it was putting all on Misha but I stand behind my opinion that he's not helping at all.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He also said some things that will certainly bring more hate onto Jensen. He didn`t need to do that. Instead he could have used that platform to actually stand up for his friend. Not a word. 

Totally agree.