S02.E06: This Woman's Work

[maraleia]

 

After an Arkfall crash, Pottinger recruits Nolan to lead their salvage mission but his secret agenda puts them in grave danger against an Alien race they’ve never encountered before.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Castithan like me?  

 

So Stahma is the new leader of the Castithan womens liberation movement.  Men don't stand a chance.  Hey if only human women thought of killing off the men who opposed them and then framing other men....alot less trouble.

 

Pottinger sending your most trusted aid into a hopeless battle in your place.  That is so Potiinger..

 

I enjoy the scenes between Amanda and Stahma and want more of them.  Hell I like it when Amanda is on my screen so I don't care who she is with

 

You steal my boyfriend.  I sleep with your father.  I am starting to like Berlin

 

Did not really care about the Arkfall stuff or Irisa.  

Edited July 25, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[johntfs]

I loved Datak's look when Stahma dropped the final stone. Like, "I have just realized that my wife is a very scary, dangerous person who is now somehow even hotter than she used to be."

 

I get the feeling that Nolan is going to be happier visiting Berlin than will be to have invited the visit.  I loved Tommy's meet-cute story about Berlin.  It makes me like her more and be sadder for what she did out of hurt tonight.

 

BTW, was Casti-Viceroy with Christie at the end or somebody else?

Edited July 25, 2014 by johntfs

[sjohnson]

Casti-drag? Really?

 

Don't believe Stahma could have pulled it off. Also believe they would have acquitted the guy even if she could have. 

 

Tommy's an idiot and doesn't deserve any better than Irisa. 

 

Nolan knew exactly what he was telling Pottinger to do. 

 

Pottinger should be gone so I suppose they'll spin their wheels to keep in there and kill off the more expensive Atherton. 

 

Speaking of Pottinger, he's losing his cool over the bioman which didn't fit with the persona he carried initially. Is he supposed to be unraveling after the assault?

[BungalowSummer]

Tommy's an idiot and doesn't deserve any better than Irisa.

Funny, I think it's Berlin who's the idiot who doesn't deserve Tommy, Nolan or anything better than playing at being Pottinger's tame camera girl. She's a real disappointment.

However, Tommy is an idiot for carrying on his grudge match with Nolan. Since when is Tommy so dedicated to going by the book?

Nolan, though, better watch it. He's showing every sign of having no standards whatsoever and is a pig-headed idiot for taking Tommy up on the grudge match. Was Nolan just drunk or did schtupping Berlin because she was Tommy's girlfriend influence his (bad) decision?

To me, Irisa is fairly blameless in all this. It hurt her to lose Tommy, but her behavior toward Tommy had none of the jealousy that Berlin showed.

Irisa has been under extraordinary pressure. She's literally infested with devices that are capable of controlling her mind, her actions and her memory. I was happy to hear that she's finally realizing that "Irzu" is no god.

Stahma, meanwhile, is a goddess --a goddess of vengeance who you cross at your extreme peril. I am rooting for her every step of the way. I, too, love her little chats with Amanda, but I fear what will happen when the truth about Kenya comes out, and it will come out.

Now we know what Deirdre meant when she told Christie that she needs to live in their skin to understand the Castithans. Wow. I must say, Viceroy Mercado was quite flamboyant compared to most of the Casti men we've met. Was Christie wearing pink contacts for Casti eyes? Was everybody in that club a human cross-dressing as a Votan species? Or were some Votans dressing as humans?

I will miss Churchill. So, I think, will Pottinger. The Bioman was probably the only true thing in Pottinger's life.

[Quilt Fairy]

I don't understand why Stahma killed all 3 of those women when it looked like only one was actively against her.

[thuganomics85]

 

I don't understand why Stahma killed all 3 of those women when it looked like only one was actively against her.

It sounded like the preacher was not only being punished for the deaths, but she also set him up as being a secret leader for a woman's movement, so I guess she needed more bodies to make it look real.  That said, I do wish we got more about how she pulled it off, because I would think it couldn't have been that easy.  I guess I can just handwave it because Stahma is a badass, but there had to be more to do it, the just planting evidence and accusing him.  But it was all worth it just to see Datak's "Oh, shit!" reaction to realizing that his wife isn't going to go down easily.

 

WTF, Berlin?!  I get bad break-ups, but to sleep with Nolan, someone you know Tommy despises?  Damn, that's cold!  Nolan going for it was strange; I guess he doesn't consider him and Amanda exclusive.  Either that, or he was jealous over her comforting Pottinger.  But, I have to think this is going to lead to some ugly stuff.

 

Farewell, Churchill.  Pottinger really looked gutted by the entire thing.  Speaking of Pottinger, looks like he's no longer mayor, but I have to think something will prevent him from leaving.  Maybe Deidre pretending to be a Castithan will come back to bite him.  And, it looks like Christie is pretending to be one too.  I guess this is this civilization's version of role-playing.  I can buy it, actually.

 

Irisa's story-line is finally coming back to ahead.  I'm glad she at least as someone to confined in now, but I really want to know what in the hell is going on with these people she's infecting, and they are chosen.

 

Amanda and Stahma together was easily my favorite scene of the episode.

[Grammaeryn]

Thanks Stahma, so that's how I should handle the #womenagainstfeminism movement (kidding!) I got the vibe that Churchill was Pottinger's companion in more than one sense. As Amanda was talking to Stahma I thought, "Don't turn into the new Quenya for her!" I'm glad someone knows about Irisa's deal even Idiot Tommy. The whole Berlin/Nolan ending was hacky crap writing. Of course an ambitious woman has revenge sex with her ex's ex girlfriends father figure. I'd see that on Days of Our Lives. I hope this isn't the last we'll see of Pottinger! In fact, I wouldn't object to an episode following him in the Dakotas. It might sound silly but I kinda liked the Faux Castithan Club because I had always wondered why people didn't try to dress up as other races. Hopefully it's just a flirtation between Christie and Ghostbusters guy (who had an odd British accent in only one scene).

[ottoDbusdriver]

WTF, Berlin?!  I get bad break-ups, but to sleep with Nolan, someone you know Tommy despises?  Damn, that's cold!  Nolan going for it was strange; I guess he doesn't consider him and Amanda exclusive.  Either that, or he was jealous over her comforting Pottinger.  But, I have to think this is going to lead to some ugly stuff.

 

I think Berlin spite-fucked Nolan since Tommy rejected her -- one way to hurt Tommy, especially since Tommy already had an extreme hate-on for Nolan, this will just make it even worse.

 

I wonder what the Viceroy expected from Pottinger at the Arkfall -- the cylinders I get (for the energy source), but did he want him to bring a Gulanee back that was still hibernating (because they seemed WAY too dangerous when awake).

Edited July 25, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[BungalowSummer]

I wonder what the Viceroy expected from Pottinger at the Arkfall -- the cylinders I get (for the energy source), but did he want him to bring a Gulanee back that was still hibernating (because they seemed WAY too dangerous when awake).

I got the impression that Mercado and Pottinger both knew the cylinders contained Gulanee, but didn't realize that they were already in their battle suits. They expected the Gulanee would die if something happened to damage or open a cylinder.

The story Pottinger gave Nolan and his troops about pure Votan energy, not energy beings, was govt. coverup. How they planned to harvest the Gulanee's very essence is unknown. It would certainly be an act of genocide.

I'm also curious about the "front" where Mercado threatened to send Pottinger. Does that mean the E-Rep is actively at war somewhere? Is this something happening in the game?

[ottoDbusdriver]

I'm also curious about the "front" where Mercado threatened to send Pottinger. Does that mean the E-Rep is actively at war somewhere? Is this something happening in the game?

 

I caught that too -- is the E-Rep fighting Votans ? Humans ?  Martians ?  And where is 'the Front' located -- North America ?  Europe ? Asia ?

 

Since the Votanis Collective is based in Brazil, I doubt 'the Front' is in South America.

 

Is Canada a separate country from the E-Rep ?  Pottinger mentioned something about an E-Rep ambassador about to sign a truce with Winnipeg.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[GaT]

I didn't get the ending at all, is Christie getting dressed up as a Castithan & getting paid for sex? Why? And why was that other guy dressing as one too? The whole thing is weird.

[BungalowSummer]

I have a bad feeling about Christie's little Casti cross-dressing adventure. I'm surprised that Stahma hasn't gotten wind of her "hanyataivo's" escapades with Dierdre and warned her to stop. Sooner or later the gossip will start. Dierdre is bad news and this will not end well for Christie. One would think her pregnancy would be enough to make her hesitate.

[johntfs]

Thoughts on the episode overall:

 

I really like Rafe and Datak, especially Rafe's "Mrs. Tarr, can Datak come over and play, please?"

 

Can we sic Stahma on the entire Religious Right of America?  AKA Welcome back to the Stahma Own Zone, Feel Free to Stretch Out and Stay for a While.

 

Holy Shit, the Gulanee are scary MFers, aren't they?

 

As far as Stahma getting away with stuff, consider what she did and how she did it.  She killed two other wives and did so with poison, framing the Holy Man.  Poison is generally the weapon of a woman, the weapon of a cowardly, inferior person, according to Casti tradition.  Killing women is one thing, but killing women in womanly way, well, that deserves the Shaming Rack.

 

William Atherton makes an awesome Casti and so does Christie.  I get the feeling that the Viceroy is probably not long for this world, though.

Edited July 25, 2014 by johntfs

[marieYOTZ]

That ending was a little too crazy to be watching at 8:15 in the morning, before work!  I really liked it.  Defiance has been so much bolder this season than first season, every episode I find myself like "What the WHAT?!"   I'm going to have to sit down and marathon all the S2 episodes (without my cellphone in my hand) to make sure I'm catching everything, as I'm so used to only paying 70% attention while watching summer shows, and I feel like I've missed some good moments. 

[tricksterson]

Sooo, that's a different spin on crossdressing.

 

Did not like the Nolan/Berlin scene at the end.  Berlin I can understand, she was drunk, hurt and angry.  But what happened to Nolan's thing with Amanda?  Did I miss something?

 

So why did the Gulanee just start killing everybody as soon as it woke up?  I would have like to have seen a bit more personality on it's part.

[CoderLady]

So why did the Gulanee just start killing everybody as soon as it woke up?  I would have like to have seen a bit more personality on it's part.

It didn't know the war with humans was over since it had been deactivated for the last 17 years, so it just started doing what it did best.

[Chaos Theory]

Something very very bad is going to happen to Christie which is going to further several storylines including her decedent into Stahmahood. I'm calling it now Christie is going to commit murder by the time the season is out: (Either Mercado or the chick who is after Alak - maybe both!)

Mercado will be somehow blamed for Kenya.by Stahma which will get Amanda into the E-rep game. Pottinger will survive the season because he is an interesting villain with a good story.

[Izeinwinter]

I... really dont see any sensible reason for the rather sizable. troop deployment the mayor took with him didn't have arms sufficient to take the thing out, or a few translators to yell at it to stand down, Because he darn well knew what he was going there after, and it isn't like "Bring the big guns, boys" would be giving the game away... As is, they appear to have been along just to die. Not to secure the site, not to be useful in case of bad shit going down, just to die like stormtroopers. Offscreen. That's just tacky storytelling.

 

Oh Berlin. I so love her for offering to help her boyfriends ex out of whatever trouble she was in. That was a class act, and Tommy didn't really give her any reason to trust him at all. Following that up with Nolan? WTF? I mean, just what?

 

The Cross-species dressing club was hilarious and logical. Of course that would be a kink! 

 

Anyone else have their doubts about churchill actually being dead? 

[Chaos Theory]

Oh Berlin. I so love her for offering to help her boyfriends ex out of whatever trouble she was in. That was a class act, and Tommy didn't really give her any reason to trust him at all. Following that up with Nolan? WTF? I mean, just what?

No one in this board has a devious mind. Sleeping with Nolan has the benifit of pissing off Tomny and Irsa. Plus hey he's hot if you go for that.....

[BestestAuntEver]

I loved Datak's look when Stahma dropped the final stone. Like, "I have just realized that my wife is a very scary, dangerous person who is now somehow even hotter than she used to be."

 

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw this scene this way. I swear Datak was proud & turned on by what Stahma did. 

 

 

Stahma, meanwhile, is a goddess --a goddess of vengeance who you cross at your extreme peril. I am rooting for her every step of the way. I, too, love her little chats with Amanda, but I fear what will happen when the truth about Kenya comes out, and it will come out.

 

 

Yes she is & I'm loving every minute of it. I love it when females are allowed to to be strong & ruthless without guilt.

 

I had to go back & rewatch the cross species dressing club scene because I did not get what it was or what they were doing the first watch. Once I understood, it was a delight to watch.

 

TPTB, seem to have their act together regarding this season of the show. There are so many story lines that I'm truly interested in seeing unfold.

[SimoneS]

Anyone else have their doubts about churchill actually being dead? 

 

I think that Churchill will be back to kill Pottinger just when he thinks he is getting away with his crimes. Pottinger was right that Nolan would have never sent Irisa out there. Nolan would have die first. Therein lies the difference between Nolan and Pottinger. I don't know why Amanda does not see this.

[Cardie]

Do we think that all the people Irisa has "tongued" are now immortal as she is? And am I recalling correctly that she has only done it to Votans, not humans?

[wanderingstar]

I think I'll hate Pottinger forever for what he just did to Churchill.

 

 

I enjoy the scenes between Amanda and Stahma and want more of them.

 

 

Same here, but I'm trying not to get too attached to them because I don't know if they'll last once Amanda finds out about Stahma killing Kenya.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Gillian Rosh

[johntfs]

 

Oh Berlin. I so love her for offering to help her boyfriends ex out of whatever trouble she was in. That was a class act, and Tommy didn't really give her any reason to trust him at all. Following that up with Nolan? WTF? I mean, just what?

People who are hurt or angry or drunk tend to make bad decisions.  People who are all three at the same time tend to make really bad decisions.  I suspect that Berlin's morning after thoughts will run something like "Oh God, I chupped the happy cowboy.  Which makes me one of the whores that he chups.  Ohgod ohgod please let this be nightmare!:"

 

 

I think that Churchill will be back to kill Pottinger just when he thinks he is getting away with his crimes. Pottinger was right that Nolan would have never sent Irisa out there. Nolan would have die first. Therein lies the difference between Nolan and Pottinger. I don't know why Amanda does not see this.

 

Actually, Irisa probably would've been the best person to send out there.  She is both Votan and immortal.  If she goes out there, there's a decent chance Defiance gets its first Gulanee citizen.  It kills Irisa, who gets back up.  Repeat the sequence until the Gulanee realizes that nope, Irisa can't die.  At which point communications open because brute force won't cut the Irathiant.

 

Since she wasn't available, the only logical choice to go out and try to delay the Gulanee was Churchill.  Pottinger would die instantly and Nolan has to build the Thingie.  Meanwhile, the Gulanee has to be stopped in the ship or dozens, possibly hundreds more people will die once it gets to Defiance.

 

 

I... really dont see any sensible reason for the rather sizable. troop deployment the mayor took with him didn't have arms sufficient to take the thing out, or a few translators to yell at it to stand down, Because he darn well knew what he was going there after, and it isn't like "Bring the big guns, boys" would be giving the game away... As is, they appear to have been along just to die. Not to secure the site, not to be useful in case of bad shit going down, just to die like stormtroopers. Offscreen. That's just tacky storytelling.

 

Maybe they had all of those things.  Surprise counts for a lot in battle, especially where alien godlike energy beings are concerned.  Figure the group was setting things up when the thing came in and started blasting.  Maybe a translator was able to say "Wait, st-" before ZORP!  That said, anyone (Gulanee aside) without a speaking part is an extra and extras are basically just there to help set the scene.  The Earth Republic extras were there to set the scene that "Holy frakking Jesus, Gulanee are seriously nasty!" by dying really quickly offscreen.  Plus, offscreen is better for this.  The way it happens in your head is way better than seeing CGI zap lightning at a bunch of people.

[BungalowSummer]

Do we think that all the people Irisa has "tongued" are now immortal as she is? And am I recalling correctly that she has only done it to Votans, not humans?

I don't know if they're officially immortal or functionally as good as immortal because they're under the protection of the Kaziri's A.I. in the form of "Irzu". That was the word Irzu used; she said she wasn't killing them, she was protecting them. [edited to add: I listened again; Irzu actually says, "You're not killing them, you're saving them." Same difference.] The victims themselves are also turning around and infecting others with the filaments.

And yes, so far only Votans have been favored with Irzu's "protection". This reminds me of the episode last season when Sukar was revived from death by nanotech in the Ark shard that killed him. It directed him to take over the radio equipment in the Arch to guide a huge Arkfall that was about to hit Defiance. The explanation then was that the nanotech was guided by the Arkbrain's "prime directive," to preserve and protect all Votan life. If the Arkfall had hit Defiance, it would have killed large numbers of Votans.

This does not bode well for whatever the Kaziri's programmed instructions are regarding Earth. It has recruited Irisa as its "weapon" and in the meantime it's sending her out to protect all the Votans by immunizing them. Is there another explanation that fits?

Edited July 26, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[Vandy10]

I...huh, I still don't know how I feel about that ending.

 

On the one hand, I do so love Stahma's badassery. But, like someone mentioned above, I wish TPTB had made how exactly she framed the religious leader slightly more explicit. I don't need every dot connected for me, but a bit more would've helped sell it to me. The more I think about the scene with her and the women, I'm wondering if Stahma went into that little sewing circle with a Plan A, which was to actually foment a real women's lib movement among the Castithans. But then when she realized the women weren't going to budge, even the abused one, she skipped ahead to Plan B: murder and a frame job. Who am I kidding? It's Stahma; murder and framing will always be her Plan A. It's why I love her.

 

I can't quite decide if Nolan having sex with Berlin was so jarring to me because it was actually out-of-character for him, or if I'm just projecting my morals onto who I want Nolan to be. I mean, this is the guy who waltzed into town and spent the first money he earned on a whore. But on the other hand, we've seen no indications that he's been sleeping with multiple people other than our former mayor. But again, we also haven't seen them having a conversation about exclusivity and they're obviously not at that level of openness since she'd been doing drugs behind his back for a while...So, yea, still conflicted on the Nolan-Berlin ending. Plus, I just hate watching violent sex. It's a personal issue of mine. I know she asked him if she should punch him for the Barbie comment, and he told her yes, but a sex-punch just won't ever work for me.

 

This show has built up a lot of goodwill in me (plus I'm an easy viewer to hook anyway, hee!) so I'm definitely in to see where these stories go. But I do hope some of the characterization is made clearer for me as the season continues.

[johntfs]

I...huh, I still don't know how I feel about that ending.

 

On the one hand, I do so love Stahma's badassery. But, like someone mentioned above, I wish TPTB had made how exactly she framed the religious leader slightly more explicit. I don't need every dot connected for me, but a bit more would've helped sell it to me. The more I think about the scene with her and the women, I'm wondering if Stahma went into that little sewing circle with a Plan A, which was to actually foment a real women's lib movement among the Castithans. But then when she realized the women weren't going to budge, even the abused one, she skipped ahead to Plan B: murder and a frame job. Who am I kidding? It's Stahma; murder and framing will always be her Plan A. It's why I love her.

 

I can't quite decide if Nolan having sex with Berlin was so jarring to me because it was actually out-of-character for him, or if I'm just projecting my morals onto who I want Nolan to be. I mean, this is the guy who waltzed into town and spent the first money he earned on a whore. But on the other hand, we've seen no indications that he's been sleeping with multiple people other than our former mayor. But again, we also haven't seen them having a conversation about exclusivity and they're obviously not at that level of openness since she'd been doing drugs behind his back for a while...So, yea, still conflicted on the Nolan-Berlin ending. Plus, I just hate watching violent sex. It's a personal issue of mine. I know she asked him if she should punch him for the Barbie comment, and he told her yes, but a sex-punch just won't ever work for me.

 

This show has built up a lot of goodwill in me (plus I'm an easy viewer to hook anyway, hee!) so I'm definitely in to see where these stories go. But I do hope some of the characterization is made clearer for me as the season continues.

Stahma planted the poison in his home and arranged for three witnesses against him.  Whatever the ultimate shape of her frame-job, it was subtle, thorough and convincing.  Hell, the guy being stretched to death didn't even see Stahma's hand in it.  Otherwise, he'd have been vocally accusing her of setting him up.

 

I may be recalling it incorrectly, but I though Amanda put her relationship with Nolan on hold until she got her head straightened out.  Then, she ditched Nolan to spend time with Pottinger, which has to irritate him.  Meanwhile, Berlin's description of Nolan as a "happy cowboy" isn't quite right.  Nolan certainly has an attitude of "eat, drink and chup whores, for tomorrow Gulanee might fry you like an egg."  There's a little more to it than that.  Nolan clearly has a strong allegiance to a personal code of trust and loyalty.  If he feels he owes someone he'll act against his better judgement to repay whatever that debt is, as witness Rafe and the robber miner.  If he perceives that someone he trusted has betrayed him or otherwise been disloyal (Tommy) he becomes deeply angry at that person and will seek to "repay" that debt as well.

 

I think Nolan knew more about Berlin's motives in the bar than Berlin did.  He knew she was doing what she was doing in part to hurt Tommy and chose to allow it to proceed because he was feeling a little rejected by Amanda, and Berlin is really pretty, very willing and Nolan still felt angry at Tommy himself.  It was kind of an ugly thing for him to do, but that's okay.  I like that no one in Defiance is of a piece.  Just as Stahma has her times of kindness and mercy, Nolan can sometimes be petty and cruel.

[Izeinwinter]

I believe Stahma was giving those women the women's lib pitch because she realized it was a no-loose proposition. - If they go for it, then great, she refrains from poisoning the lot of them, and now she has a new set of social connections to work against the patriarchy, and if they fuck up, the most likely consequence is the preacher actually killing his wife, which is one step better than a frame.

If they say no.. Well dead women tell no tales, so she doesn't get ostracized anymore than she already is. 

Stahma has a very complicated mind. 

 

Christies scene with the DJ were they were playing dressup was super adorable, and I am in two minds about it, because I am unsure which angle the DJ is playing. Is she trying to work her way into a triad with Christie and Alak, or is she being all about Eve? Version 92? 

Edited July 26, 2014 by Izeinwinter

[shapeshifter]

People who are hurt or angry or drunk tend to make bad decisions.  People who are all three at the same time tend to make really bad decisions.  I suspect that Berlin's morning after thoughts will run something like "Oh God, I chupped the happy cowboy.  Which makes me one of the whores that he chups.  Ohgod ohgod please let this be nightmare!:"

Pretty much how I saw it.

About Churchill being sent on a suicide mission: Nolan explains the writers' rationale for us when he says something like: Churchill, unlike Irisa, is a bioman, which is basically spare parts with programming. Anyone have the exact line? Plus, Nolan points out that there was no other choice, because otherwise all three of them would be dead.

Although Pottinger did look kind of cold when he watched the bioman Churchill die, I don't think--based on his later comments--that he didn't regret it. IMO, the coldness was more of stealing himself against emotions that seemed inappropriate to him. It seemed like Churchill was analogous to the German Shepherds that were sent into harm's way in various world wars--their caretakers did love them and hated it when they died, but ultimately they were there to die in place of men if need be.

[Vandy10]

Don't get me wrong, I like shades of grey in my characters. But I'd completely glazed over the fact that Nolan and Amanda were "on a break." Now that I know that, the Nolan-Berlin scene at the end makes more sense to me. I still don't like their pairing, but it does work for me in the narrative now.

 

I really shouldn't be such a lazy viewer; I tend to miss important things that way!

[sjohnson]

Re Nolan/Berlin: Barbie Dolls are all about sex, he's always despised her and putting it to her puts him one up as far as he's concerned. As for Berlin, I daresay part of this was about getting one up on Irisa. And I expect Irisa to see the sex tape at some point too, that being the reason it was made I think. (By the way, why didn't Berlin think Pottinger was maybe gay since he isn't interested in her? Does she really think narcissists don't have sex? Or did she not want to spook Tommy by saying Pottinger would only look at his naked ass?) 

 

Re Nolan/Bioman: Nolan knew exactly what he was telling Pottinger to do. If Pottinger had tried to go out, I think Nolan would have stopped him, needing his help in finishing off the Gulanee. He stated the obvious about Churchll's inevitable death because he enjoyed rubbing Pottinger's face in it. I suspect that Nolan made his argument about the inhumanity of the bioman because he was suspicious about the mission and wanted it clear that he deemed the bioman expendable. I think the show agrees with Nolan but argues that since Pottinger doesn't, that means he's the morally guilty one, not Nolan. James Murray should be looking for a new job. 

 

Re Nolan/Tommy: Ditching someone who was a real friend because he didn't want to cover up a crime is not very admirable, even if you cover with drivel about loyalty. Really, Tommy trusted that Nolan was going to do the right thing as lawkeeper. Nolan violated that trust, abused Tommy's loyalty because that piece of shit McCawley asked him for a favor. What loyalty did Nolan owe him? And there's his supposed loyalty to Irisa, who he knows is in some sort of trouble and he doesn't want Tommy's help for her sake? It's seems obvious to me that he doesn't really regard Irisa as worth a little vanity.

 

I don't know whether the show means to deconstruct the character or is accidentally doubling down on the badassery. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by sjohnson

[MrPissyPuppy]

One little touch that totally cracked me up was Datak putting a coaster of some sort under the beer/drink he took from Rafe when he left so that Datak and Stahma could talk.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice by the actor or director or the actor just being habitually tidy  'cuz Datak hasn't  struck me as a coaster type guy.   

[wanderingstar]

One little touch that totally cracked me up was Datak putting a coaster of some sort under the beer/drink he took from Rafe when he left so that Datak and Stahma could talk.  I wonder if that was a deliberate choice by the actor or director or the actor just being habitually tidy  'cuz Datak hasn't  struck me as a coaster type guy.

 

 

I missed that! But I loved everything about the Datak/Rafe/Stahma scene. Those 3 together are bringing me so much joy this season!

[Turtle]

I'm trying not to get too attached to them because I don't know if they'll last once Amanda finds out about Stahma killing Kenya.

But how will Amanda ever find out?  Isn't Stahma the only one who knows?  I don't see her 'fessing up anytime soon.  

 

I'm still confused about the ending - was everyone at the club only dressed up as a Castithan?  Or was it a Castithan club with just a few pretenders?  Like I said - confused! 

[BungalowSummer]

But how will Amanda ever find out? Isn't Stahma the only one who knows?

Datak knows. He forced Stahma to kill Kenya as "penance". Poisoning Kenya was, I think, Stahma's idea. She seems to like poison. She reminds me of Livia in "I, Claudius."

I rewatched the scene in the cross-dresser club. As far as I could tell, everybody there were humans cosplaying as Votans. The singer was dressed as an Indogene (her ears were human), as were a few others. I also saw a few people with painted Irathient markings. Most were dressed as Castithans. I would love to have seen a faux Liberata or Sensoth.

Edited July 27, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[Turtle]

Thanks, @BungalowSummer  I completely forgot that Datak was in on killing Kenya.  

[GaT]

Datak knows. He forced Stahma to kill Kenya as "penance". Poisoning Kenya was, I think, Stahma's idea. She seems to like poison. She reminds me of Livia in "I, Claudius."

 

 

 

Thanks, @BungalowSummer.  I completely forgot that Datak was in on killing Kenya.  

I still don't think Kenya is dead. When Stahma came back to Datak after supposedly killing Kenya, she said something like I did as you told me, or I did what you wanted, or something like that. I think if Kenya was really dead, Stahma would say she was dead. Kenya was the beginning of Stahma's defiance of Datak, I think she may have drugged her & dumped her, or sold her, or did something with her that keeps her wherever she is, but I don't think she killed her.

[Scarlett45]

About Churchill being sent on a suicide mission: Nolan explains the writers' rationale for us when he says something like: Churchill, unlike Irisa, is a bioman, which is basically spare parts with programming. Anyone have the exact line? Plus, Nolan points out that there was no other choice, because otherwise all three of them would be dead.

Although Pottinger did look kind of cold when he watched the bioman Churchill die, I don't think--based on his later comments--that he didn't regret it. IMO, the coldness was more of stealing himself against emotions that seemed inappropriate to him. It seemed like Churchill was analogous to the German Shepherds that were sent into harm's way in various world wars--their caretakers did love them and hated it when they died, but ultimately they were there to die in place of men if need be.

I think the exact line was "stem cells and spare parts"(what the bioman was made of). I am not quite certain how sentient/self aware biomen are supposed to be, but I agree with the German Shepard (or other animal companion) analogy. It seemed to me that Pottenger did care for Chruchill, but not at the expense of his life (maybe at the expense of other human strangers). I think the coldness was his way of "dealing with" the unpleasantness of losing Chruchill who he did care for.

I had to put one of my beloved cats to sleep last week (very old, wouldn't eat/drink and too weak to walk or move) and I was very stoic about it up until I actually got to the vet and had to articulate that I thought euthanasia was best. Again the bioman is more self aware than a dog or a cat but that's the closest analogy I can think of.

[jhlipton]

I don't think Tommy has ever been loyal to Nolan.  He's been loyal to the LawKeeper.  For Nolan, everything is all about him (he's worse than Pottinger in this regard), so he mistook Tommy's dedication to his job as loyalty to him.  When Tommy's job conflicts with what Nolan wants, then he sees Tommy as being "disloyal".  Tommy is an idiot  -- just frex, he could have told Berlin something {"Irisa is going through some weird alien shit.  I value and appreciate your support, and I'll tell you what I can, and i hope that you trust me."), but that wouldn't be Idiot Tommy, would it?

 

On a shallow note, nice to see Berlin join the Side-Boob Brigade!

[pele2102]

I haven't watched the show in a bit, so I had no idea who Churchill was. That being sad I felt more emotion for him and Pottinger than I ever did for Nolan and Irisa. Hell Nolan could've died and I would've been like meh.

[Chaos Theory]

I still don't think Kenya is dead

 

 

I'd be disappointed if she isn't dead.  As much as I loved her as a character (and I did).  What I love about this show is that it is willing to kill off its main cast when it becomes necessary.  I find that refreshing.  There is nothing more annoying on a show than "oh no character you know is never going to die is in danger cliffhanger:.    I like the fact that I actually believe characters are in real danger of dying,  I actually thought for a second that Datak would kill Stahma in the bathtub scene a couple episodes back (even thought the show would be stupid to kill off any of the Tarrs this early in the game - but still genuine concern on my part which doesn't happen on too many shows) 

 

Speaking of....oh no Christie.  Something very very bad is about to happen to a character  I formally felt blah about isn't it?  

 

I like Nolan.  He is a harmless action fluff hero.    It is Irisa who I cannot handle which is unusual.  I usually like female characters regardless of their annoy over/under.  

Edited July 28, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[johntfs]

I don't think Tommy has ever been loyal to Nolan.  He's been loyal to the LawKeeper.  For Nolan, everything is all about him (he's worse than Pottinger in this regard), so he mistook Tommy's dedication to his job as loyalty to him.  When Tommy's job conflicts with what Nolan wants, then he sees Tommy as being "disloyal".  Tommy is an idiot  -- just frex, he could have told Berlin something {"Irisa is going through some weird alien shit.  I value and appreciate your support, and I'll tell you what I can, and i hope that you trust me."), but that wouldn't be Idiot Tommy, would it?

 

On a shallow note, nice to see Berlin join the Side-Boob Brigade!

I don't think that for Nolan it's all about him, though it seems that way.  Nolan and Irisa have spent a large portion of their lives living outside organized communities and their laws.  They travel the Badlands, where the only law is "You keep whatever you're strong enough to defend."  Nolan is about personal relationships, personal obligations and personal trust.  If someone violates that, Nolan is going to be very slow to forgive them.

 

As for Tommy, he can be a bit slow to consider other things but he wasn't wrong to avoid sharing more than he did.  Berlin is still an E-Rep officer who takes her duties seriously.  Given the statement you suggested, her follow would be "What kind of alien shit, exactly?"  If Tommy doesn't tell her, Berlin still breaks up with him but now has additional concerns about Irisa other than "She just stole my boyfriend."  If Tommy does tell about the alien shit, then every other kind of shit hits the fan.  The fact that Irisa is attacking people and infecting them with some kind of alien virus-technology is a potential dire threat to Votans and humans.  Berlin cannot in good conscience allow that sort of thing to continue, which means Irisa likely gets locked up and dissected alive.  Again.

 

And yes, let the side-boobery continue.

I like Nolan.  He is a harmless action fluff hero.    It is Irisa who I cannot handle which is unusual.  I usually like female characters regardless of their annoy over/under.

 

 

No, he really isn't.  Which is what I like about him.  Sure has the veneer of "jokey action hero" but he's unpredictable and lethally dangerous.  He shot that cuffed Casti war criminal in the head when he learn that the guy would be "jailed" in his own mansion with a pool and slaves.  He also murdered the former cult leader despite the fact that the guy was the sole support for his wife and child.  Even last episode it's obvious that Nolan is aware that Berlin is in a vulnerable emotional position and chooses to take advantage of her.

Edited July 28, 2014 by johntfs

[jhlipton]

As for Tommy, he can be a bit slow to consider other things but he wasn't wrong to avoid sharing more than he did.  Berlin is still an E-Rep officer who takes her duties seriously.  Given the statement you suggested, her follow would be "What kind of alien shit, exactly?"

And Smart Tommy would say "Like I said, I'll tell you what I can, and i hope that you trust me. Right now, that's all I can say. If that's not enough, enjoy Texas." Of course, we have no Smart Tommy on this show.

I was more than a little disappointed to see that the show considers Berlin to be little more than a Barbie Doll.  She's more useless than Christie.  (It hurts more because I had high hopes for her, especially after the "Hot Chewbacca" speech).

Edited July 28, 2014 by jhlipton

[kieyra]

 

The Cross-species dressing club was hilarious and logical. Of course that would be a kink!

 

I don't post much, but I have to say, that one caught me very off-guard while at the same time being totally "yes of course!". Naturally humans would want to role-play as these pale, graceful, heavily ritualized aliens, the same way goth kids pretend they're vampires or whatever. I have to give the show full credit for that. I often can't tell where the show is really aimed, in that Farscapey way, but this felt fresh and inspired rather than somewhat random. 

Edited July 28, 2014 by kieyra

[maczero]

Was I the only one disappointed in the "living in their skin" thing?  I was expecting something truly disturbing.  As far as fetishes go, this barely qualifies as freaky.  Although, I'm guessing the Votan races would be offended by the practice.   It would be like caucasians having parties where they got dressed up in black face and acted out various black stereotypes.  Actually now that I think about it, that may be a fun storyline when the Tarrs find out what Christie has been up to.

 

What else happened?  Berlin is a freak and doesn't have a bad looking body (Tommy is an idiot).  As for Berlin and Nolan, I didn't like it but Nolan doesn't seem like the type to pass up an easy lay.  I actually feel really bad for Tommy now.  Not only did Nolan take his job but he got into his ex's pants hours after they broke up.

Edited July 28, 2014 by maczero

[GaT]

Was I the only one disappointed in the "living in their skin" thing?  I was expecting something truly disturbing.  

I have to admit I was expecting something more in the "it puts the lotion on it's skin" line of fetish.

[sjohnson]

What exactly is the point of this intensive recomplication of tumultuous private lives; Stahma's Lady MacBeth turning into Empress Wu; Irisa betrayed by Tommy; Berlin and Amanda's degradation; Nolan's ever increasing superiority and eventual triumph over the pervert Pottinger? The show is called Defiance, where the Pale Wars were supposed to begun to end because people defied the imperative of war. So you sort of think that might be what the show is about, except, if it is, the show is spinning its wheels a lot. But if it's just about a town full of wretched people doing nasty things, arranged in a hierarchy of coolness like Deadwood, then the soapishness and unreality of the setting are detracting. Why do you need godlike AIs if the show is really just about a crooked cop? We've already had The Shield. 

[BungalowSummer]

I think the show has become about broken and shifting alliances. It's apparent that the Pale Wars didn't really end, they just became a Cold War. And everybody in power seems to expect that war to go hot soon. It will be interesting to see who are allies, who are enemies and who can be turned. Will mutual interest (and affection) overcome racial solidarity?

Edited July 28, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[shapeshifter]

...I'm guessing the Votan races would be offended by the practice.   It would be like caucasians having parties where they got dressed up in black face and acted out various black stereotypes.

That analogy doesn't quite fit since the humans didn't kidnap the Casthis and bring them to Earth to make slaves of them. Native Americans wouldn't work as a symbol of the Casthis either, for different reasons. Still, that doesn't mean the Casthis wouldn't be deeply offended, and, if so, and if the DJ girl takes pictures, Alek might freak out.

Is there any possibility that it is run by Casthis as an under-the-table money making venture? Or did we see something in the scene to indicate otherwise?