S22.E01: Guardians and Gladiators

[WendyCR72]

Airing November 12, 2020:

When the squad tries to solve an assault in Central Park, they are hampered by their own blind spots and a community that is losing trust in the police.

[dttruman]

1

Bad news, guess who is listed in the cast of characters, Noah Porter Benson. It's going to be a bad episode if he has more screen time and dialogue than Garland.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11873140/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

Edited November 9, 2020 by dttruman

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I saw the promo pics for the episode and Noah is in them - blah, let’s hope the screentime for the brat is minimal.

I really have no idea what to expect from this episode, I hope for the best.

[Spartan Girl]

I saw the promo last night and...this is how they want to tackle the BLM Movement? They need to fire their writers.

But they didn't do a good job of doing it in the past, why should we expect anything different?

[wanderingstar]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I saw the promo last night and...this is how they want to tackle the BLM Movement? They need to fire their writers.

But they didn't do a good job of doing it in the past, why should we expect anything different?

Yeah, based on that promo, I do not see this episode going well.

[Xeliou66]

5 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Yeah, based on that promo, I do not see this episode going well.

I never get my hopes up for current SVU episodes, I don’t expect much from them. The only thing that seems somewhat interesting about the promo is that it seems Benson may have screwed up - something which present day St Olivia never does. However I have a feeling they will find a way to make St Olivia the hero and savior of all by the end of the episode like they usually do, that’s my prediction.

[CrystalBlue]

Re the promo:  What does the black lady, whoever she is, saying to Olivia before Olivia says, "Excuse me?"  Right at the end.  She talks too fast and replaying it over and over again doesn't help and there's no subtitles in YouTube videos.  I got that Noah said he was watching his mom arresting the wrong guy.

Never mind, I found the CC (closed caption) button for YT vid.  She says, "I'm gonna stop you here."

Doesn't portend to be a good episode but Fin is backing the Capt., so we shall see what spin the show put on the real-life incident that was in the news.

Edited November 12, 2020 by CrystalBlue
Found it.

[Spartan Girl]

So I caught the season finale the other night and I know this season is having Fin shot a guy who nearly stabbed his son and getting sued by the battered wife. Again, REALLY? The writers apparently want to show that their cops are getting a bad rap by people using the BLM for their own advantage. UGH.

[wanderingstar]

I am crying from laughing at how much the characters are using hand sanitizer. Ok, show we get it-lol

[Gigi43]

Benson regularly ruins the lives of men falsely accused, regardless of race.

They'll never really get into that conversation in a real way.

[Spartan Girl]

Olivia owning up to her bias would have meant more years back, particularly when Barba brilliantly called her out on it in "Community Policing." But too little, too late.

Fin, on the other hand, doesn't deserve this crap. The guy had a knife on his child. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[dttruman]

This episode starts out by combing two incidents together, the Karen and the BLM involvement and it was pretty good with a lot of good investigative moments. Then about halfway through it became nothing but a social and political issue concerning the police and their supposed underlying racism. I thought the second half of the episode was forced and manipulated by so many people conveniently overreacting, especially Carisi and the two Grand Jury members asking preconceived notion questions. I thought it was suppose to be about objectivity. I thought the guy was arrested because he was being uncooperative, resisting and combative, which conveniently wasn't mentioned, but the writers (and producers) made damn sure it was all about race. I thought they could have presented this in a better way, but all they wanted to do was push their agenda again.

[UnoAgain]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

arrested because he was being uncooperative, resisting and combative, which conveniently wasn't mentioned, but the writers (and producers) made damn sure it was all about race

Well when his race.. And the whiteness of the woman who weaponized the cops against him was the issue for the false arrest.. Then yeah being combative and resisting are realistic reactions... And the growing frustration of something happening to you that you know has happened to countless others no matter how respectable they act would only add to it

[Xeliou66]

I thought this was pretty good, especially for an episode dealing with a lot of social and political issues.

I liked certain things about this episode - such as the fact that the perp wasn’t immediately obvious, it required investigation, and I liked that they showed an ending where justice wasn’t served, that happens in plenty of real life cases, and while it was somewhat cliched how the grand jury reacted, it was nice to see something different from the usual “justice is served and the vic thanks St Olivia” ending.

Most of all I liked that St Olivia was taken down a peg, and she wasn’t able to fix everything by the end of the episode. I liked that they at least said had a line from Benson about being biased towards the victims, we’ve all noticed her extreme biases over the years, and it would be great if this case caused Benson to become a more objective squad leader. Somehow I doubt that will happen, but it would be great if it did. 

Carisi was awesome in this one - I loved seeing him act with authority and not take orders from anyone, he’s settled in nicely as ADA and I hope to see more of this Carisi the rest of the season. Bonus points for no trashing of the DA’s office, no Hadid, and Carisi getting his own office!! Like I say, I hope this is a sign of things to come. 

What did strike somewhat of a false note was Fin and Carisi’s argument, I liked Carisi calling Fin out after the grand jury stuff started to go awry, but what was with Fin’s comment about Staten Island and then Carisi asking if Fin was calling him a racist? I don’t know but it seems like there’s been some tension between Fin and Carisi since Carisi joined the DA’s office, and I don’t care for it, I guess I still miss Fin and Carisi working together as detectives, they had a nice partnership especially in season 20. 

Garland was good, I like his style as Chief, but he didn’t get a lot to do and I’m not sure why they added him to the main cast, not every episode will have the need for his involvement. 

I really liked the callback to American Tragedy from season 15, good continuity there which SVU doesn’t normally have. Also liked Tucker being mentioned since IAB was involved, I still think killing him off was a terrible mistake, but it was nice they mentioned him. 

Really could’ve done without the Noah scene at the end, I hate almost every scene with him. 

Rollins didn’t annoy me in this one which was good, and I liked how they had her interact with Carisi without any hints of sexual tension. I liked their friendship before they started hinting at romance between them. 

Overall this was a good season premiere with a lot of signs that point to a good season, so I’m pleasantly surprised. 

 

[CrystalBlue]

The last time I checked, if you have a warrant or warrants out for your arrest, and you encounter the cops, you get arrested.  Taking the suspect in on arrest warrants is SOP regardless of race to get it sorted out, at the precinct, where they can then determine it's not appropriate or policy to put someone behind bars for violating a protest curfew.  Other than that, I feel for Jayvon Brown's frustration and situation.  It is a pity that a man gets targeted as being a menace to society for merely Walking While Black.  The Karen was a beyotch and as it turns out a nutcase.

I really enjoyed this episode and loved Nurse Rudy and the other guest actors, who did a great job as always.  I'm looking forward to next week's and have some hope for the series after all, especially with Benson's retrospection and soul searching.  My, Noah is getting so big!  Still would like him off my TV screen though.  Carisi rocked and I don't want anything bad to happen to Fin.

[Dlw88]

Listen I have watched vsu for 20 years and if this is what it's going to focus around I will have to delete that timer! 

[wknt3]

The Good:
The case. It wasn't obvious from the beginning, but they also didn't add unnecessary twists. It flowed logically and brought in the social issues they were exploring naturally. And they didn't feel the need to give us a unearned happy ending.
Good use of the whole cast. It was nice to see the actual detectives in the field and Benson being more of a leader. Everyone got something to do and Benson was front and center without taking over everything.
Benson was wrong. Let me repeat BENSON WAS WRONG. Even though they added all sorts of caveats about how her heart was in the right place and she was the only one not worried about politics etc, and she did everything she could to make amends they actually gave us Olivia Benson as a flawed human being. 'Bout freaking time.
Carisi. He was actually acting as an ADA and not an auxiliary detective and Benson's personal lawyer. Hopefully this means they have gotten a handle on how to write Carisi in his new position and this will keep going moving forward.
Some nice nods to past continuity. Heck we even got an AMARO reference!

The Bad:
Benoah. One thing that has stayed consistent among all the different showrunners, different writers and approaches, etc. is that these scenes add nothing except a chance to beat us over the heads with overacting and clumsy attempts at thematic resonance. I guess partial credit for at least advancing the plot somewhat by giving LIv a motive for the conversation at the end, but since when does she need an actual reason to do something stupid against all logic and reason?
The Fin and Carisi argument. As others mentioned it was just totally unnecessary and a bit OOC. Why not have Rollins be the one Fin was angry at and accusing of racism/bias since there is actually some grounding there? And keep the conflict between Fin and Carisi  to the law and Fin's behavior? Or maybe dive a bit deeper with Carisi pointing out that Fin has always prided himself over being a good soldier and has stood up for far worse? Maybe asked him if he had some lingering biases of his own relating to the victim's sexuality and that was why he wasn't hiding his own feelings so that they could get justice? A lot of false notes there.
Speaking of false notes - the music. Especially at the end, They've gotten really heavy handed with the background music over the last few years almost to the point of self parody. Let's dial it back a bit show.

Overall this was a solid episode. Maybe a B+. Certainly better than I expected given the previews and the subject matter and it left me hopeful for the rest of the season. I hope they can keep it up.

[Gigi43]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

. 

What did strike somewhat of a false note was Fin and Carisi’s argument, I liked Carisi calling Fin out after the grand jury stuff started to go awry, but what was with Fin’s comment about Staten Island and then Carisi asking if Fin was calling him a racist? I don’t know but it seems like there’s been some tension between Fin and Carisi since Carisi joined the DA’s office, and I don’t care for it, I guess I still miss Fin and Carisi working together as detectives, they had a nice partnership especially in season 20. 

 

 

 

Staten Island isn't known for the diversity other boroughs are and considered to be the more racist of the boroughs. However, obviously, not everyone from Staten Island is a racist and Fin pulling that was so OOC. Carisi isn't Stabler, who Finn regularly showed distain for. He likes Carisi the argument of maybe Carisis is forgetting what it's like to be a cop, fine, whatever. The racist thing felt like they needed someone for Finn to call a racist so why not the white guy on the show. 

 

This episode was okay. I'm in the group that liked the first half better. Mostly because I felt beat over the head with the word "Karen" "in this climate" etc. We get it.  This episode even has me defending -gasp- Noah, slightly. If he's online and seeing his mother trend for being a racist, and the news and everyone is calling her a racist, well, being young I think it was kind of logical for him to ask in the mind of a kid. Then Liv got offended and was all "C'mon" as her answer. He's a kid. Liv. Don't seem annoyed. I mean sure, I'm generally annoyed by Noah, but as a parent you don't get he's being bombarded everywhere so it may confuse him? But we all could have done without the kid, entirely. That scene was useless, as is all Noah scenes.

 

One thing that pissed me off, going back to my first post. Liv says she has a bias towards victims. No, she has a bias towards accusers. That's not the name. The man who was rape was a victim but the woman in the park? Not a victim, an accuser. Plenty of accusers turn out to not be victims but Liv won't acknowledge that because maybe she'd have to own the damage she'd done. Mr. Jackie, anyone? That episode still angers me in reruns. Live wanted that shit public, 

 

I'm pissed we're getting IAB and no Tucker. Killing him off was beyond pointless. They're trying to play good guy and bad guy with the Chief (telling, Finn to watch out for himself, then meeting with Liv) I hope they don't make him another Big Meanie because he's not in the inner circle. But I liked seeing Carisi in court, more of that please. 

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

Well when his race.. And the whiteness of the woman who weaponized the cops against him was the issue for the false arrest.. Then yeah being combative and resisting are realistic reactions... And the growing frustration of something happening to you that you know has happened to countless others no matter how respectable they act would only add to it

 

2 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Other than that, I feel for Jayvon Brown's frustration and situation.  It is a pity that a man gets targeted as being a menace to society for merely Walking While Black.  The Karen was a beyotch and as it turns out a nutcase.

I can understand from a racial point where Jayvon is coming from, but IMO it's more about a profiling point (which I can identify more with) and how he reacted. There was a crime, I fit the description (or profile) at the time, where I was questioned and detained. I was cooperative and it was quickly determined that I was not involved in the crime. The police explained why they took such actions and then apologized for the detainment. Why people are uncooperative or resist only adds on to the problem. Thinking the whole department is racist even when there are many minorities on the force leads to paranoia. Yes, there is a bad (or racist) cop out there, but they usually unmask themselves sooner or later and that cop is usually bounced.

As for Jayvon, he had that video of that crazy lady going nuts, so he would have been released promptly. Where the writers (and producers) decided to push their agenda is when they conveniently gave him a couple of outstanding warrants. Even though the police followed proper procedure, they still wanted to subvert the police and make it seem like the whole system is "out of whack".

This then led us through a series of events where I thought the confrontations between the characters were so staged and unrealistic and I had to ask 'how can this be". Most here have been working together for a long period of time and know one another, but then this so-called underlying racism and accusations started flying for no apparent reasons and that's where I thought they were throwing the NYPD under the bus.

 

 

[SarahPrtr]

9 hours ago, dttruman said:

This episode starts out by combing two incidents together, the Karen and the BLM involvement and it was pretty good with a lot of good investigative moments. Then about halfway through it became nothing but a social and political issue concerning the police and their supposed underlying racism. I thought the second half of the episode was forced and manipulated by so many people conveniently overreacting, especially Carisi and the two Grand Jury members asking preconceived notion questions.

Yep, the same old, same old - good and promising start at the beginning of the episode, which gives us some hope that this could be something worth watching.  Then... fizzzzzzzzzz...... they self-destruct!  And Carisi a racist?!!  FFS!!!!!!!!!!  Are they THAT desperate???

 

 

[dreamer]

On 11/12/2020 at 9:23 PM, dttruman said:

I thought they could have presented this in a better way, but all they wanted to do was push their agenda again.

Agreed! I liked Olivia and Fin's little yet purposeful discussion about whether to arrest the guy or not in the park, as well as, outside the precinct after the arrest. As a viewer, I was able relate to their POV and felt involved.

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Really could’ve done without the Noah scene at the end, I hate almost every scene with him. 

There was something different about this scene though. Usually, Noah's scenes are related to Olivia being just a parental figure with almost stereotyped views on issues concerning parenting. Possibly, it never occurred to her, that her job might have an effect on him, too.

[dttruman]

24 minutes ago, dreamer said:

There was something different about this scene though. Usually, Noah's scenes are related to Olivia being just a parental figure with almost stereotyped views on issues concerning parenting. Possibly, it never occurred to her, that her job might have an effect on him, too.

How old is Noah suppose to be now, I haven't been paying attention to that? I thought he was still too young to show any concern for Benson's work. The last thing I remember, he liked baseball, but was switching over to some dance classes. What we saw last night, does this mean the writers (and producers) plan on making Noah active in social issues and having discussions with Benson regularly?

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

How old is Noah suppose to be now, I haven't been paying attention to that? I thought he was still too young to show any concern for Benson's work. The last thing I remember, he liked baseball, but was switching over to some dance classes. What we saw last night, does this mean the writers (and producers) plan on making Noah active in social issues and having discussions with Benson regularly?

I don't think Noah was concerned about Olivia's work; the only reason he was interested was because other children were viewing the video of the arrest that was probably on YouTube.

I think the "woke-ness" of the show has more to do with the pandemic.  Because our distractions (movies, shows, bars, restaurants, get togethers) have been taken away or reduced, people have become laser focused on other things.  I really don't think there would have been so many protests all over the world after George Floyd's murder, had there not been a pandemic.  

And this show, like all the other Law & Orders got the grand jury, wrong, wrong wrong.  The jurors themselves can't ask questions.  You have to ask the ADA if you can ask the question. 

[wanderingstar]

I laughed all the way out loud when that lady said "I'm not one of those Karens." Ok, writers, we get it. You spend time on Twitter.

Quote

Really could’ve done without the Noah scene at the end, I hate almost every scene with him.  

Every time he comes on screen, I just roll my eyes and wait for it to be over.

The Fin-Carisi argument smacked of the writers trying to be edgy, and well...it just fell flat to me.

The perp using legit criticisms of police conduct to get off irritated me. Because it felt like the show was saying, "See, all these people crying BLM are just hucksters." Which, is some BS, but I don't expect more from this show.

Quote

Rollins didn’t annoy me in this one which was good, and I liked how they had her interact with Carisi without any hints of sexual tension. I liked their friendship before they started hinting at romance between them.  

Now if only they'd stick with a friendship between these two.

What did folks think of the incorporation of references to Covid? I appreciated it, though I found it pretty heavy handed (then again, when has this show ever done subtlety!).

I did find myself looking at how far apart the actors were in each scene. *smh* Sign of the times, I guess.

[balmz]

amusing episode, best part of the episode was them trashing olivia, worth watching the episode if nothing else for that

 the attempt at having blm and trying to be woke made me roll my eyes, svu came off as being an annoying poser with the terrible attempt at incorporating blm, the different people mentioning karens, the terrible attempt at putting covid in the story

 

 https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WereStillRelevantDammit

this tv tropes article sums up svu's pathetic attempt to try include real world issues

 

did like the fin and Garland's chat though

 

 

[853fisher]

I find myself agreeing with many comments above.  Not perfect, but frankly a better outing than I expected.  I hope they stay this course and remain focused on the procedural.  I would always be happy to see more in court, but they used the whole team well.

This is the first new scripted show set in the present I've watched since COVID.  Otherwise it's been "The Goldbergs" and several game shows, where COVID is not evident in the same ways.  So maybe I am exaggerating things in my recollection because I was looking out for them, but it certainly felt to me like there were an awful lot of "dramatically peeling off my face mask!" moments.  Like, "hello," "hello," *quick draw peel*.  Just me?

[CrystalBlue]

27 minutes ago, 853fisher said:

I find myself agreeing with many comments above.  Not perfect, but frankly a better outing than I expected.  I hope they stay this course and remain focused on the procedural.  I would always be happy to see more in court, but they used the whole team well.

This is the first new scripted show set in the present I've watched since COVID.  Otherwise it's been "The Goldbergs" and several game shows, where COVID is not evident in the same ways.  So maybe I am exaggerating things in my recollection because I was looking out for them, but it certainly felt to me like there were an awful lot of "dramatically peeling off my face mask!" moments.  Like, "hello," "hello," *quick draw peel*.  Just me?

No, I was counting the times when masks were worn, peeled off to speak which isn't supposed to happen; you're supposed to talk with your mask on, that's the point of wearing it, you nit wits, droplets in the air and all, and how if the whole show was authentic everyone should have been wearing a mask all the time when getting within 6 feet of anyone else, except at home, like the Benoah scene.  I know that would have distracted the whole show but ...

[853fisher]

16 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

No, I was counting the times when masks were worn, peeled off to speak which isn't supposed to happen; you're supposed to talk with your mask on, that's the point of wearing it, you nit wits, droplets in the air and all, and how if the whole show was authentic everyone should have been wearing a mask all the time when getting within 6 feet of anyone else, except at home, like the Benoah scene.  I know that would have distracted the whole show but ...

I was just as distracted this way.  So maybe they couldn't win.  I particularly noticed when one of the grand jurors stood up, bringing her molecule-spewer above the plexiglas, and tore off her mask to ask her question.  (Which she also shouldn't have directly asked anyway.)  Madam, what what what are you doing?!  Maybe it would be too weird not to show the masks, but I'm glad it's not just me that found a few of these choices very strange.

[CrystalBlue]

My first question last night when the credits rolled was who told Jayvon's employer he was in NA?  The SVU promised him they wouldn't hear it from them, wasn't it Fin and Rollins in that scene?  I was really upset that there was a leak and that Jayvon Brown got fired over it.  I hope he sues for wrongful termination along with his lawsuit against NYPD.

[dttruman]

10 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

No, I was counting the times when masks were worn, peeled off to speak which isn't supposed to happen; you're supposed to talk with your mask on, that's the point of wearing it, you nit wits, droplets in the air and all, and how if the whole show was authentic everyone should have been wearing a mask all the time when getting within 6 feet of anyone else, except at home, like the Benoah scene.  I know that would have distracted the whole show but ...

I guess the producers thought it was much more important to center on a couple of the possible social injustices than an actual medical issue. If your question is raised a lot, I am sure they will reach into their bag of dramatic licenses and say they all tested negative. And that will be that.

[appledown]

30 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

No, I was counting the times when masks were worn, peeled off to speak which isn't supposed to happen; you're supposed to talk with your mask on, that's the point of wearing it, you nit wits, droplets in the air and all, and how if the whole show was authentic everyone should have been wearing a mask all the time when getting within 6 feet of anyone else, except at home, like the Benoah scene.  I know that would have distracted the whole show but ...

I was super distracted and annoyed by the inconsistencies with masks. And one character spoke without his mask on to 2 others wearing masks and then PUT HIS ON as he walked away. Um...what?? Lol

[mommalib]

It was nice to see Olivia get put through the ringer a little bit and get put in a position where she's wrong and has to apologize. I love what that sista said to her during the interrogation. It's scary that Benson is framed as so well intentioned but it really didn't resonate with her that she once stopped and frisked a man because of the color of his skin.

Chief Garland was really straddling the fence between figuring out what went down and trying to protect Olivia. I guess he did the best he could under the circumstances.

I don't like how they did Fin especially with the jury. First he gets put in a tough situation with Javon's arrest and then he gets accused of aiding and abetting the system that's oppressing's his people and by a white woman no less.

 

[Winston Wolfe]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

And this show, like all the other Law & Orders got the grand jury, wrong, wrong wrong.  The jurors themselves can't ask questions.  You have to ask the ADA if you can ask the question. 

Parisi did try to assert that protocol, but lost control of the Jury very quickly. And I can recall Barba allowing jurors to ask questions (at least one time) when it suited his agenda.

Overall a very underwhelming Season Premiere. It's like they tried to do too much (Covid-19, BLM, St. Olivia falling off her pedestal) all at once. Haven't watched regularly for a while, didn't know Tucker had died. Liv just takes one hit after another.

[Neurochick]

30 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Parisi did try to assert that protocol, but lost control of the Jury very quickly. And I can recall Barba allowing jurors to ask questions (at least one time) when it suited his agenda.

In Manhattan the grand jury sits in something like an small arena, you're elevated.  The ADA and witnesses are like lower than where you're sitting.  Think of a lecture hall, just a bit smaller. 

[kicotan]

3 hours ago, appledown said:

I was super distracted and annoyed by the inconsistencies with masks. And one character spoke without his mask on to 2 others wearing masks and then PUT HIS ON as he walked away. Um...what?? Lol

Me too and I think it has to be on purpose.  Right off the bat, the paramedic doesn’t allow Kat to ride along in the ambulance because COVID.   

Call me petty, but I was also distracted by the amount of fillers in Rollins’ face (when she wasn’t wearing a mask) Egads.

3 hours ago, dttruman said:

I am sure they will reach into their bag of dramatic licenses and say they all tested negative. And that will be that.

It almost feels like a set-up for the next episode where EVERYONE from this episode who did not consistently follow protocol will be hospitalized/quarantined.  Especially the ones who wore them, then took them off to talk to someone.  The Grand Jury had Plexiglass barriers, yet some wore masks, some didn’t, one guy’s was hanging off his ear, some just kept them under their chins, one chick even stood up and pulled her mask under her chin to talk, effectively negating both barriers.  I smell a plot device.

[tennisgurl]

All things considered, this could certainly have been a lot worse. The show kind of had to deal with the protests and BLM movement and the police, and while I know that the show can never really really go hard on dealing with that, I do give them credit that they at least talked about it without getting really defensive or trying to discount people that have legit issues with the police, and they didn't offer up a pat ending or an easy answer. Most shockingly, they even had characters call St Olivia out on her bias, and showed her as being in the wrong, even if it might be subconscious. I am legit surprised that they had Olivia show some self self reflection and people were allowed to accuse her of wrong doing and weren't immediately vilified and that they didn't have Olivia somehow fix racism or something.  I do call bullshit on her whole "I didn't think of racism because I am so focused on victims!" excuse, that was just stupid. First of all, if she is so about victims, she should also be focused on victims of racism, of which there are plenty. Second, and more obviously, Olivia isn't obsessed with victims so much as she is obsessed with perps and sending them to jail while trying to look awesome. She is obsessed with being a savior for crying victims and defeating a never ending horde of smug evil scumbags who seek to abuse the crying victims, to the point where she often stops even noticing the victims at all, she gets so into pursuing "bad guys" and being the hero. I think that it was maybe a bit questionable that they had the rapist basically get out of what he did by playing the BLM card, but I think the show was more saying that the NYPD had screwed up so badly that people just assume the worst of them, not that people who talk about issues of police misconduct as being liars...or maybe I am giving this show too much credit. 

This is also one of those episodes that threw in a TON of stuff, including a bunch of Ripped From the Headlines stories, but to the episodes credit, I do think they did a pretty good job. Things did at least tie together in the end alright with the rapist and the police brutality, and as much as I wanted that smug asshole rapist to get his and for someone to wipe that smug grin off his face, I appreciate that it wasn't just a perfect happy ending where justice was served like it so often is on this show. This is also the first male victim we have had since the Ripped From the Headlines fake rape story last season, so that was a nice change of pace, even if him being in a coma and all the other stuff happening meant he got rather short changed as a character, while most rape victims are around so they can get a lot more characterization, and he seemed like an interesting guy from what we saw and heard. The guy playing the rapist sure did have an epic level shit eating grin, I almost feel bad for the actor, it must be tough going through life with a face that punchable, hopefully he doesn't usually look that intensely smug. 

Not to nitpick, but what the hell was that camera angle when Rollins came in to talk to Carisi, why did it look like it was being filmed on someone's phone for a second? It turned into a found footage film for a second, it was super weird. On the other hand, I liked the shot of Carisi through the plexiglass at the trail, that looked pretty cool. Also, the random "you calling me a racist bro?" argument between Finn and Carisi seemed super random. Finn and Carisi get along pretty well and have worked together for quite awhile, it seemed more like the writers wanting to add more conflict just to add conflict instead of it making any sense for the characters. 

Speaking of, poor Finn. It really sucks that he is dealing with so much, especially with him shooting the abusive husband last season, that guy had a knife to his kids throat! Now people are throwing it at him as another act of racism, like come on people. What was he supposed to do? Adding that into this really just muddies the issue and just feels like its more fucking with Finn. Stupid lawsuit. 

Garland continues to a great chief. He's pragmatic, but he also cares about justice more than politics and while he is clearly personally affected by what has been going on as a black man in the NYPD, he is still trying to keep professional. 

Of course, because its this show, even when they are doing alright with a Topical Issue, they have to fall back on melodrama and people talking in soundbites instead of sounding like actual people. Like, not only does some Karen call the cops on a BLM activist at the park while tons of people are watching and video taping and he gets arrested, they also find a rape victim in the woods, AND the rapist stuck around to scream woke catchphrases and remind us again how the writers of this show think that Rollins is the hottest hottie who ever hotted, plus the victim was hiding his sexuality from his mom, and the activist is in recovery and was meeting with his sponsor, its always this massive level perfect storm of a billion issues and things going on all at once. Luckily the mystery of the rapist was pretty easy to figure out and was rather easy to follow. And everyone has to say stuff like "I'm not one of those Karen's!" and other stuff like that which makes people not really talk like real people, they just sound like sound bites or stuff picked up off of Twitter Hashtags. Half the time, instead of it making me think, I am just wondering who the hell talks this way. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by tennisgurl

[jabRI]

Why would he be fired for being in NA? He's a picker not a front line worker.  For not disclosing? But there are privacy laws.  But these days with employment at will workers have zero rights.  That needs to be addressed in this country, but you don't hear about it very much.

[wknt3]

2 hours ago, kicotan said:

It almost feels like a set-up for the next episode where EVERYONE from this episode who did not consistently follow protocol will be hospitalized/quarantined.  Especially the ones who wore them, then took them off to talk to someone.  The Grand Jury had Plexiglass barriers, yet some wore masks, some didn’t, one guy’s was hanging off his ear, some just kept them under their chins, one chick even stood up and pulled her mask under her chin to talk, effectively negating both barriers.  I smell a plot device.

I hope you are not a banker. Because you are giving them WAY more credit than their track record warrants...

 

13 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

I'm pissed we're getting IAB and no Tucker. Killing him off was beyond pointless. They're trying to play good guy and bad guy with the Chief (telling, Finn to watch out for himself, then meeting with Liv) I hope they don't make him another Big Meanie because he's not in the inner circle. But I liked seeing Carisi in court, more of that please. 

I highly doubt they are going to make Garland an antagonist. They wouldn't have promoted him to the main cast if that was under consideration.

[meatball77]

Four shows on last night had masks (the ABC Grey's shows, this one and superstore, Station 19 did the best job) and they all had the same distracting thing where all the background characters are masked and the main characters pull their masks off when they have conversations like that's what you are supposed to do, it's a very bad example.

They need to either pretend that Corona doesn't exist or they need to show their characters fully masked all the time unless they're outside or at home with their families/roommates.

When they told the guy that he needed a better mask and then they came in unmasked and started talking to him.  Then we had Olivia and her boss in a car with the windows up unmasked.

 

[Andyourlittledog2]

Hated the episode. It was just TOO MUCH.  Pace yourselves, writers, it's going to be a long season.

The masks on and off at weird moments was distracting but my take was that they could NOT do an entire episode of the major characters wearing masks all the time because that would make for terrible TV. So they wore them then took them off when they were in a conversation or fully participated in a scene (usually) and held them as a kind of symbolic representation of wearing the mask but not wearing it for the sake of watching the scenes on TV. If they had worn the masks at all times like in real life the show would be almost unwatchable. But they have to represent that they the characters are doing it. So...symbolism.  That's how I saw it anyway. And even I had to keep reminding myself I thought that because every time they whisked a mask off my first instinct was to object. Then I'd remind myself: TV symbolism, you'd hate watching an hour of them fully masked.

[SarahPrtr]

11 hours ago, kicotan said:

  Call me petty, but I was also distracted by the amount of fillers in Rollins’ face (when she wasn’t wearing a mask) Egads.

 

I just don't understand why people do this.  I have no objections to cosmetic procedures if the person is over 18, but surely you would be able to see if you've gone too far, especially when you're only in your 30s/40s.  Kathryn Morris from Cold Case did the same thing.  It was really uncomfortable to look at her face from season 5.  Kelli and Kathryn are both attractive women.  Again... just WHY!?! 

[dttruman]

12 minutes ago, SarahPrtr said:

I just don't understand why people do this.  I have no objections to cosmetic procedures if the person is over 18, but surely you would be able to see if you've gone too far, especially when you're only in your 30s/40s.  Kathryn Morris from Cold Case did the same thing.  It was really uncomfortable to look at her face from season 5.  Kelli and Kathryn are both attractive women.  Again... just WHY!?! 

I remember the show and the actress, but I never thought too much of the cosmetic procedure, so I went back to look. Wow, you were spot on about that, it's very pronounced!

[agentp]

After reading the recaps, the ratings result, the reactions on Twitter (especially compared to the Grey’s season premiere), I just wanna say this:

THEY BLEW IT. SUPER HARD. COMPLETE BUFFOONERY. (bonus points if you get that joke)

P.S: Here’s the ratings for Thursday, Nov. 12:

https://tvline.com/2020/11/13/tv-ratings-greys-anatomy-season-17-premiere/

Edited November 14, 2020 by agentp

[Andyourlittledog2]

 This episode, IMO, was an overwrought morality play, without nuance or authenticity.  It made valid points in such a heavy handed ridiculous way that I, a liberal, wanted to oppose them just as a reaction.  If this is how TV plans to address these serious issues then we have a problem. 

And this pains me because I have been saying this my entire life: every animal, including human, has an instinctual reaction of us versus them, of my tribe versus your tribe. It is a survival mechanism for each species. My territory versus your territory, my group versus your group. It's innate. We've outlived its usefulness for the most part in modern society but the instinct remains. So we have to recognize it when it pops up inside of us and try to correct as we go along. And as long as people insist they are pure and good and have no bias or prejudice at all, see no color, etc then they will have huge blind spots that they have no chance of recognizing on their own. And that this show touched on that made me very happy because it is rare that anyone ever does.  And they botched it in the bizarre way they fashioned the episode and tried to throw in everything but the kitchen sink in one hour of programming.

It pisses me off. /end rant

[wknt3]

A few thoughts about some minor points about this episode that I haven't noticed anyone address yet.

So with the scenes of the desk sergeant doing COVID screening before visitors entering the squad room does this mean the writers will be hesitant to show randos off the street bursting in? If so at least one positive thing will have come out of this #%@#ing pandemic.

I didn't have time to do any research before posting my thoughts on this episode but I kind of bumped on the IAB officer talking about "gladiator" cops. I have always seen discussions of policing styles or mentalities framed as guardians vs. warriors and now that I've had a chance to do some googling it seems to confirm that they pulled it out of their butts. It bugs me because I have a nagging suspicion that they used the word gladiator so that they could do the contrived 22 letter episode title thing or maybe because they liked the alliteration.

Speaking of sloppiness how old is the chief supposed to be? I was under the impression he was supposed to be fairly young. Because when he talks about his father hitting the ceiling at sergeant that ended in the mid 70's and was done by the 80's (not that there wasn't still discrimination) so assuming he is in his early 40's his father should have been in that first generation that was able to break through. It wouldn't have required a lot of tweaking to make it his grandfather or talk about how his dad was a captain, but had to make a lot of compromises to move up. It's not like you have to do a ton of research to know this - if you watched Hill Street Blues  for instance you would know how times had changed but old attitudes lingered. Of course if none of the 3 writers credited on the teleplay watched the classics of the police procedural genre it explains a lot about the writing issues of the past half decade of SVU...

[dttruman]

28 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I have a nagging suspicion that they used the word gladiator so that they could do the contrived 22 letter episode title thing or maybe because they liked the alliteration.

I always thought that 22 letter title thing for an episode was so stupid. It seemed like they put more attention into that little gimmick than actually putting in the proper research and quality into the episode itself.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

I always thought that 22 letter title thing for an episode was so stupid. It seemed like they put more attention into that little gimmick than actually putting in the proper research and quality into the episode itself.

Agreed with this - the letter title gimmick is really stupid, it’s like the writers care more about creative episode titles than about telling good stories.

[Neiman]

Very disappointed with this episode. Hope it’s not an indicator of what’s to come. 
 

The mask scenes were silly and unrealistic. Everybody wears one except the SVU team and lawyers. They removed masks to get up in someone’s face to speak. 

[DB in CMH]

SVU needs to shit or get off the pot. Either incorporate covid into the show, or pretend they live in some alternate reality. All of the indoor scenes with no masks and people close talking made me crawl out of my skin.

I'm having the exact same issue with Superstore.

Edited November 15, 2020 by DB in CMH

[Neiman]

If they're going to keep using the masks, they need to watch some old episodes of the MASH surgery scenes.  That cast showed how easy it is to talk while wearing a mask, but something tells me Olivia and the rest aren't wearing masks because it might interfere with hair and makeup.