Cersei Lannister: Not As Smart As She Thinks She Is

[lion10]

I don't understand why Cersei is trying to antagonize Margarey and the Tyrells.  The Tyrells are their only sure allies anymore with the Martells mad over Oberyn's death.  Tommen isn't the type of kid who's going to listen to his wife's whispers about how evil his mother is.  

 

And rearming the Faith Militant and giving the approval to go after even royals is really stupid.  The Targaryens had trouble with the Faith Militant and they had dragons.  The FM could prove to be much more dangerous against a diminished Lannister family with the entirety of King's Landing to draw upon for troops.

 

And I love her smirks.  They're divine.

 

Edited April 26, 2015 by SilverStormm
Please tag book talk in here.

[Lady S.]

Well in fairness, I don't think show Tyrion had any idea that prince Oberyn would come to KL and die.  His plan still worked as marriage was always a way to broker deals in Westerous - even without an honored guest in return.

They already had a motive to use Myrcella as a hostage because of Elia's murder. Other marriage alliances don't have that kind of bad blood to overcome, you need trust to have an alliance or else something to keep both parties in line. How could he trust Doran and Oberyn would forgive their sister's murder by being bought off with a good bride for Doran's son? Tyrion was caught off guard by Oberyn's revenge quest and that only worked out between him and Oberyn because he was arrested for Joffrey's murder. What if Oberyn fought the Mountain under other circumstances and then tried to bring down Tywin with Tyrion still aligned with House Lannister?

[Winnief]

Ah, Cersei, Cersei, Cersei...you are without a doubt the most infamous adulteress in the Seven Kingdoms.  You're widely known for putting three children by incest with your own twin into the royal nursery and suspected (correctly) to have committed regicide and your family name is now soaked in blood and universally despised.... and you arm a group of fundamentalist religious fanatics one of whose most fervent converts includes a guy you committed adultery AND helped commit the Regicide with.

 

Oh this is just going to be so poetic to watch.  Even people in the Unsullied thread could already tell where it was going. 

[bluvelvet]

Ah, Cersei, Cersei, Cersei...you are without a doubt the most infamous adulteress in the Seven Kingdoms. You're widely known for putting three children by incest with your own twin into the royal nursery and suspected (correctly) to have committed regicide and your family name is now soaked in blood and universally despised.... and you arm a group of fundamentalist religious fanatics one of whose most fervent converts includes a guy you committed adultery AND helped commit the Regicide with.

Oh this is just going to be so poetic to watch. Even people in the Unsullied thread could already tell where it was going.

I came to this thread to say Cersei is an idiot! But you said it so much more eloquently than I could.

Edited May 4, 2015 by bluvelvet

[GreyBunny]

Oh yes, they have Lancel, he says he's been forgiven which means he probably confessed his sins...all of them.  The High Sparrow already knows all about Cersei.

[Winnief]

Oh yes, they have Lancel, he says he's been forgiven which means he probably confessed his sins...all of them.  The High Sparrow already knows all about Cersei.

 

 

Agreed.  My guess is that he's gathering his strength first *before* he arrests her.  Smart nutjob.

The sad part is that Cersei probably thinks she holds the upper hand in terms of intellect there.

[Lady S.]

Ah, Cersei, Cersei, Cersei...you are without a doubt the most infamous adulteress in the Seven Kingdoms.  You're widely known for putting three children by incest with your own twin into the royal nursery and suspected (correctly) to have committed regicide and your family name is now soaked in blood and universally despised.... and you arm a group of fundamentalist religious fanatics one of whose most fervent converts includes a guy you committed adultery AND helped commit the Regicide with.

Do we think she let him into her bed before Robert died? I was thinking she held out until the deed was done, Lancel wasn't all that assertive before his religious re-birth and I don't think she had much reason to be hot for his bod back then either.

She really should have gotten the message from Lancel dramatic re-emergence at Tywin's funeral. Maybe she thinks any group Lancel is involved with will be as easy to control as Lancel was back when he was really her minion.

[Featherhat]

Cersei was so painfully idiotic it was excruciating to watch. Yes, lets arm the religious fanatics to humiliate your rival, I'm sure that won't backfire. It doesn't seem to have occurred to her that a man who walks around in rags spouting the simple life but can inspire massacres is dangerous or that people who willing carve religious symbols into their foreheads have some broader agenda than "Team Lannister" no matter who gave them their power.

She's doubly stupid to start messing around in the direction of sexual immorality. Even if Lancel hadn't been in the group, she knows that the rumours of her and Jaime are only kept back because the Tyrell's are willing to overlook it and everyone is tired of war. Give people a bigger reason to grumble or "a cause" and then she's suddenly in deep doo doo.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Featherhat

[BlackberryJam]

Cersei being completely wrong and stupid is pretty true to Cersei in the books, even if she's wrong and stupid in a totally different way. The only person that ever thought Cersei was brilliant and would be a good leader was...Cersei. And we all know she's wrong about everything.

[Winnief]

Returning to this thread to distract myself from the Scene I Cannot Name...

 

First of all as others have noted it was hilarious to see Cersei consciously trying to imitate Tywin with the whole scribbling furiously at the desk thing, but she ain't fooling anyone.  Tywin was a genuine workaholic who was OBSESSED with administrative details, and everyone knows full well, Cersei is bored by them. 

 

Secondly, while it is beyond obvious to Sullied and Unsullied alike that empowering the Faith militant to this degree is unbelievably dangerous and WILL come back to bite her on the ass, Cersei remains as blithely smug as ever-which I suppose is all to make the inevitable outcome even sweeter.

 

Lastly, I like how Olenna pointed out the obvious; the Lannister's need the Tyrells to have any hope of keeping the city much less the Seven Kingdoms and everyone in King's Landing knows that-except Cersei.  She just doesn't understand alliances, which is completely true to the books and that is not just bad for her but disastrous for all of House Lannister.

[nksarmi]

Littlefinger all but came right out and reminded Cersei that her bedfellows are common knowledge in King's Landing.  While her dear sparrow cousin doesn't seem too guilt ridden with his activities yet, I can believe he has either already confessed them or that Littlefinger will remind him to do so very soon (I hate LF and want him to die, but he can do this for me first).  Since LF and Olenna presumably had an alliance to off Geoffrey - I do not doubt that they can also align to bring down Cersei. 

 

I have always believed Cersei knew in her heart of hearts that Tyrion really didn't kill Geoff, but it might turn out that her most foolish moment was believing her own hatred and not thinking about who else might have killed her crazy ass son and what enemies she might have that she didn't know about.  Because I don't doubt for a minute that Olenna is going to bring Cersei down - it just can't happen soon enough for my liking.

Edited May 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[Avaleigh]

I definitely, definitely, definitely think that Cersei believes that Tyrion killed Joffrey. The prophecy coupled with everything else makes her unwilling to entertain any other possibility. She only looks for proof to support the opinion she's already formed.

Littlefinger all but came right out and reminded Cersei that her bedfellows are common knowledge in King's Landing. While her dear sparrow cousin doesn't seem too guilt ridden with his activities yet, I can believe he has either already confessed them or that Littlefinger will remind him to do so very soon (I hate LF and want him to die, but he can do this for me first). Since LF and Olenna presumably had an alliance to off Geoffrey - I do not doubt that they can also align to bring down Cersei.

We all know what an idiot Cersei is and this past episode twice reminded me of something Tyrion once said about how quick she is to see insults but doesn't really seem to learn from these moments or see any opportunity in them. Cersei toys with Olenna by continuing to write but immediately bristles, looks up, and gives Olenna her full attention thereby letting Olenna win the moment. Cersei was trying to make Olenna uncomfortable and it got turned around on her almost instantly.

With Littlefinger, he checks her about her own bedfellows and she only takes it as him getting smart with her, pricking her, trying to be deliberately annoying. She doesn't see it as a genuine warning, not a warning because LF is concerned for her but because the FM doesn't help anyone. It's going to be bad for business, bad for morale, bad for stability, bad for the monarchy, etc. and Littlefinger is shocked that Cersei can't see what's right in front of her face. Littlefinger comes back to KL and is instantly being harassed in the streets. The King can't even visit the Sept when he wants to. There are all these changes that are threatening their rule and Cersei hasn't seemed to notice one.

He even tells her that she can't afford to make an enemy of the Tyrells and she just shrugs it off like he's reminding her about something unimportant.

I'm looking forward to Cersei's arrest and how she behaves once shit starts to go down but I cannot bring myself to cheer on this Walk. I didn't like seeing the High Septon go through it and I'm not going to like seeing Cersei go through it even though she's done a bunch of horrible things.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

Because I don't doubt for a minute that Olenna is going to bring Cersei down - it just can't happen soon enough for my liking.

 

 

Well between Olenna and Cersei I know who I'd bet on...but remember Cersei still has to outlive her two remaining children-which doesn't mean Olenna can't put her firmly in her place first, (on the show she'll probably play a role in instigating the Walk of Shame, and I for one won't be able to blame her for it,) and dear Gods it's gonna get ugly when the Tyrell's are no longer there to prop things up in King's Landing. 

 

With Littlefinger, he checks her about her own bedfellows and she only takes it as him getting smart with her, pricking her, trying to be deliberately annoying. She doesn't see it as a genuine warning, not a warning because LF is concerned for her but because the FM doesn't help anyone. It's going to be bad for business, bad for morale, bad for stability, bad for the monarchy, etc. and Littlefinger is shocked that Cersei can't see what's right in front of her face. Littlefinger comes back to KL and is instantly being harassed in the streets.  The King can't even visit the Sept when he wants to. There are all these changes that are threatening there rule and Cersei hasn't seemed to notice one.

 

He even tells her that she can't afford to make an enemy of the Tyrells and she just shrugs it off like he's reminding her about something unimportant.

 

Its part of a larger pattern of Cersei being acutely sensitive to immediate rivals/petty power struggles but oblivious to larger, looming external threats.  Remember how much time and energy in Season 2 she spent feuding with Tyrion while blithely shrugging off the military threats to House Lannister until Stannis was literally at the gates?!?  Notice how she's completely ignored all the reports from Essos about Dany who has a growing army and three dragons, much less dismissing everything from the Wall as pure nonsense?!?  She has no way of understanding either the dangers of armed Fanatics, OR what the destruction of the Tyrell/Lannister coalition would mean, because its all just hypothetical to her and because hey nobody can beat the Lannisters!  Unfortunately for Cersei it's all going to stop being hypothetical really, REALLY quickly and she's going to have her face rubbed in the fact that the Lannister name just ain't what it once was-and how difficult if not impossible it's going to be for them to find new allies in the days to come after all the shit they've pulled. 

 

Regarding the prophecy, I for one firmly believe that Sansa is the Younger More Beautiful Queen, and even if she isn't, I do anticipate another face to face confrontation between those two sometime especially now that Cersei knows where she is and is planning to send an army to kill her. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Winnief

[nksarmi]

I believe there are ways Olenna can get her children out of this, but I believe that first she will make sure Cersei falls - not dies persay - but falls from grace.  I think if Loras demands trial by combat and wins, he can exonerate himself and his sister.  I don't think the FM would deny such a request and surely they would not ask an abomination such as Frankinmonster to fight on their behalf?  So really who would Loras face?  How many can defeat him?  It would be a solid calculated risk and much better than having to deal with the rumors of Renly.

 

If Loras won trial by combat, the FM can't do anything to him or Marg and they/Cersei have made a huge enemy in the process.  Of course, if Olenna can arrange for Lancel to confess and Cersei to be arrested before this happens, the Tyrells come out even more on top. I honestly believe that Cersei has orchestrated her own downfall - perhaps not her death - but definitely her removal from power.

[Winnief]

If Loras won trial by combat, the FM can't do anything to him or Marg and they/Cersei have made a huge enemy in the process.

 

 

I really really like that theory.  The Tyrell's aren't gonna keep the Iron Throne, but I do NOT want to see them extinguished, but rather retreat back to Highgarden.

 

Also depending on when Loras insisted on his trial by combat its possible that Frankengregor might not even be ready yet for Cersei's use.  And yeah true to the ironic value of prophecy, Cersei in her attempts to destroy the woman she *thinks* is the YMBQ and thus preserve her place in power has helped set about her own downfall because that's how these things go.

[Rocket]

Cerisi could have asked her brother Tyrion with all his book learning how to deal with prophecy. I'm sure he would tell her prophecy often works by what ever you do to avoid them you make them come true. But like all the other good advice he could give her she rejected him because she hated him as the dwarf that killed her mother. 

Of course depends on what type of prophecy Westros has, the type that can be avoided or the Norse type that is locked in on rails and cannot be avoided as you will find your self compelled to act your part in the play.

I wondered for a short bit why Littefinger left Sansa to return to Kings Landing where it could be dangerous for him. Then I remembered who controlled the Gold Cloaks in season one, I'm sure as master of coin he made sure they got paid on time and gave them all perks from time to time. Plus most of the Lanister army has now been removed by Cerise's stupidity and returned to Casterly Rock with Uncle. I'm fairly sure with the gold cloaks the Tyrell's  have the most trained forces in Kings Landing now.  With two actual smart players like the Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger Cersi is doomed. I'll put more detail in Sansa's thread on Littlefinger leaving her in Winterfield but this actually works for him if he wants her latter. 

Littlefigners talk with Cerise reminded me of his with Ned season one, Littlefinger is actually giving good advice that if ignored will result in him being the one who lowers the axe. With Littlefinger I'm sure most of his plans are heads he wins, tails you lose. 

[Avaleigh]

I believe there are ways Olenna can get her children out of this, but I believe that first she will make sure Cersei falls - not dies persay - but falls from grace.  I think if Loras demands trial by combat and wins, he can exonerate himself and his sister.  I don't think the FM would deny such a request and surely they would not ask an abomination such as Frankinmonster to fight on their behalf?  So really who would Loras face?  How many can defeat him?  It would be a solid calculated risk and much better than having to deal with the rumors of Renly.

I think you just solved for me how it's going to work only I see Loras losing. I'm guessing they're building up Lancel as more of a hardass for a reason. Watch Lancel kill Loras and then get killed by Gregorstein when it's Cersei's turn.

[nksarmi]

I think you just solved for me how it's going to work only I see Loras losing. I'm guessing they're building up Lancel as more of a hardass for a reason. Watch Lancel kill Loras and then get killed by Gregorstein when it's Cersei's turn.

That could work as well, but I guess it depends on if they plan on having Marg prevail or not.  I mean honestly, House Tyrell hasn't taken many hits considering they backed Renly at the start of the war, so maybe it's just their turn.

 

However, Cersei really is cutting off her nose to spite her face here. Let's review the perilously peace she has at the moment. Her son rules as king with a king in the north who means to unseat him.  Stannis lost once, but he did so only because the Tyrells aligned with the Lannister army to defeat him. So what has Cersei done?  Feed the heir of High Garden to FM and brought down the queen with him?  How does this benefit her?  What does she gain except for some smug satisfaction that she humiliated her rivals?

 

Cersei has been told the Lannister mines are dry.  She knows how much the crown owes the Iron Bank.  How does she plan to run the kingdom without Tyrell support?  Does she honestly expect to keep that support while sacrificing Marg and Lorus just because their alliance brought peace?  Is she delusional or just plain stupid?

 

In the south, Dorne is pissed over Oberon's death.  In the north, the whole of the North is pissed over what happened to the Starks.  I honestly believe the end result of this situation could be that Stannis marches on KL from the north while Dorne marches on KL from the south and the only hope Cersei had was House Tyrell.  And at this point, I think the only family in all of Westerous that would want to keep Tommen on the throne was in fact House Tyrell.  What will they do if Loras or Marg die?  Will they care then?

[Winnief]

And at this point, I think the only family in all of Westerous that would want to keep Tommen on the throne was in fact House Tyrell.  What will they do if Loras or Marg die?  Will they care then?

 

If either of those (entirely too possible) events take place, then the Tyrell's are out of the whole deal.  Period.  And yeah, I think Cersei is just being delusional at this point.  Tywin's punishment in the afterlife is probably having to watch this shit go down as he turns over in his grave.

 

How does this benefit her?  What does she gain except for some smug satisfaction that she humiliated her rivals?

 

 

Cersei never thinks beyond the smug satisfaction stage.  NEVER.  It's been that way since Season 1 but now it's worse than ever-probably because neither Daddy or Tyrion are around anymore to save her from herself. 

 

I think you just solved for me how it's going to work only I see Loras losing. I'm guessing they're building up Lancel as more of a hardass for a reason. Watch Lancel kill Loras and then get killed by Gregorstein when it's Cersei's turn.

 

That sounds all too plausible.  I'd hate to see it go down that way because I like the Tyrell's, but fact is they've been on a lucky streak so far being the one House who *hasn't* suffered during the WoTFK and all the other chaos, which in the world of Westeros bodes badly for them.  More and more I wish that a Tyrell/Stark alliance had taken place, (sealed by marriages like Sansa/Loras and/or Robb/Margaery,) not just for the sake of Robb and the Starks but because I have a nagging suspicion that signing on with the Lannister's might just prove fatal to the Roses now that Winter has Come.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Winnief

[Conan Troutman]

I definitely, definitely, definitely think that Cersei believes that Tyrion killed Joffrey. The prophecy coupled with everything else makes her unwilling to entertain any other possibility. She only looks for proof to support the opinion she's already formed. 

 

Could you explain how the prophecy makes her think Tyrion killed Joffrey without being too spoilery?

 

Regarding the prophecy, I for one firmly believe that Sansa is the Younger More Beautiful Queen, and even if she isn't, I do anticipate another face to face confrontation between those two sometime especially now that Cersei knows where she is and is planning to send an army to kill her. 

 

I like that, but I have no idea how Sansa could possibly wind up being Queen. And I sure as hell don't want a King Ramsey.

 

I believe there are ways Olenna can get her children out of this, but I believe that first she will make sure Cersei falls - not dies persay - but falls from grace.  I think if Loras demands trial by combat and wins, he can exonerate himself and his sister.  I don't think the FM would deny such a request and surely they would not ask an abomination such as Frankinmonster to fight on their behalf?  So really who would Loras face?  How many can defeat him?  It would be a solid calculated risk and much better than having to deal with the rumors of Renly.

 

I don't think the FM knows about Qyburn's little experiments, so they probably wouldn't object. I guess Loras fighting Frankenmountain is the most logical outcome from a meta perspective - there really wouldn't be a point in letting the Mountain somehow survive unless he had some purpose and since Cersei's fall from power is imminent, Checkov's Frankenmountain has to be fired soon. Also: Didn't the Mountain almost kill Loras early in season 1, after Loras "cheated" by making the Mountains horse horny, but Loras was saved by the Hound's intervention? If so, I'm all for a rematch. And if Loras were to win or at least lose, but doing a better job than Oberyn in wounding him fatally, the Hound would still be indirectly responsible for his brother's death. Of course Lancel would be a good alternative.

 

Cerisi could have asked her brother Tyrion with all his book learning how to deal with prophecy. I'm sure he would tell her prophecy often works by what ever you do to avoid them you make them come true. But like all the other good advice he could give her she rejected him because she hated him as the dwarf that killed her mother. 

Of course depends on what type of prophecy Westros has, the type that can be avoided or the Norse type that is locked in on rails and cannot be avoided as you will find your self compelled to act your part in the play.

 

I'm wondering if the witch "simply" was being able to look in Cersei's future as if it was the past - which would mean that Cersei has already made all those decisions from the witch's POV, so the free will vs determination "problem" doesn't exist, which would make this more of a Norse type one - or since she needed the blood, it was some kind of blood magic. The kind that killed Dany's unborn son and Cersei's somehow cursed. Either way, she's completely screwed now.

 

That could work as well, but I guess it depends on if they plan on having Marg prevail or not.  I mean honestly, House Tyrell hasn't taken many hits considering they backed Renly at the start of the war, so maybe it's just their turn.

 

I guess Margaery will survive. The FM is dangerous, but I don't think the penalty for lying is necessarily death. The High Septon was made walking around in the street naked, which would seem like both an appropriate punishment in-universe and a nice opportunity for the show to fulfill the boobie quota. Loras however, I don't think he makes it, since as you said, the Tyrells are more than overdue to take a hit.

 

If either of those (entirely too possible) events take place, then the Tyrell's are out of the whole deal.  Period. 

 

I think they're out already, judging by Olenna's look to Cersei at the end of the trial scene. Even if Margaery and Loras both get out of this unscathed, Olenna won't have any more of Cersei's shenanigans. The can't simply annul the marriage right now, but once Tommen is officially exposed as a bastard and abomination of incest, that should be reason enough. Either that, or Margaery finally gets her "widowed thrice" achievement unlocked.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Avaleigh]

Olenna doesn't want to deal with anymore of Cersei's shenanigans true, but she's not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater by saying anything to the HS about the incest. It doesn't make any sense from her position since she wants her granddaughter to be queen. I agree that the focus is going to be on Cersei's relationship with Lancel and the murder of the King. I can see Jaime coming up too but not because of Olenna. I think the HS will get their on his own since the rumors have been out there for years or possibly because of Lancel.

 

As far as the speculation from people that Cersei had the necklace sent to herself--I'm starting to become convinced. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes never make any mention of having sent the Lannisters a warning, do they? 

 

That would also explain the cold goodbye and the way she assumes that he'll be going alone. Why would she assume that? It's like she was putting the suggestion out there. 

 

The only thing I'm still on the fence about with regard to the theory is the potential danger that Myrcella could be in if Jaime is caught. Cersei loves her children, that much has been established, so would she really put her daughter in danger like that? 

[BlackberryJam]

Could you explain how the prophecy makes her think Tyrion killed Joffrey without being too spoilery?

 

 

I like that, but I have no idea how Sansa could possibly wind up being Queen. And I sure as hell don't want a King Ramsey.

 

 

Any discussion of that prophecy that differs from the show might be spoilery, so I don't think anyone can.

 

Just note though, that the prophecy never says "Younger, more beautiful queen." It says, which doesn't differ from the source, that Cersei will be queen until there comes "another, younger and more beautiful." Not necessarily another "queen" although people like to say YMBQ all the time. It really should be A,YMB. So Sansa doesn't have to be a queen to fulfill the prophecy.

[Lady S.]

Could you explain how the prophecy makes her think Tyrion killed Joffrey without being too spoilery?

 

 

I like that, but I have no idea how Sansa could possibly wind up being Queen. And I sure as hell don't want a King Ramsey.

 

 

I don't think the FM knows about Qyburn's little experiments, so they probably wouldn't object. I guess Loras fighting Frankenmountain is the most logical outcome from a meta perspective - there really wouldn't be a point in letting the Mountain somehow survive unless he had some purpose and since Cersei's fall from power is imminent, Checkov's Frankenmountain has to be fired soon. Also: Didn't the Mountain almost kill Loras early in season 1, after Loras "cheated" by making the Mountains horse horny, but Loras was saved by the Hound's intervention? If so, I'm all for a rematch. And if Loras were to win or at least lose, but doing a better job than Oberyn in wounding him fatally, the Hound would still be indirectly responsible for his brother's death. Of course Lancel would be a good alternative.

 

 

I'm wondering if the witch "simply" was being able to look in Cersei's future as if it was the past - which would mean that Cersei has already made all those decisions from the witch's POV, so the free will vs determination "problem" doesn't exist, which would make this more of a Norse type one - or since she needed the blood, it was some kind of blood magic. The kind that killed Dany's unborn son and Cersei's somehow cursed. Either way, she's completely screwed now.

Without being spoilery? Cersei has reason to believe she will outlive all her children, she already saw Tyrion as some evil force who killed their mother, then in s2 she saw something sinister in Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne and wanting Joffrey to be present in battle so she had Ros kidnapped on the pretext of keeping Joff safe, so that's why I completely buy that Cersei would connect all murders in her family to the guy she already unfairly blamed for a death in the family. She may have had the prophecy on her mind for the first time since hearing it when Tyrion was acting Hand. I don't believe she really took the "boring" witch's words seriously all these years, else her deliberately helping part of the prophecy come true by never having a living child of Robert's was even stupider than ignoring the threat Lancel's newfound piety poses. Agreed with your take on the prophecy as something that might have been, now coming about due to Cersei's own folly.

 

B.Cogs has gone on record saying they try to avoid encouraging Lost-fandom-style convoluted theorizing, so I don't think the prophecy would even be included if the words were meant to be obfuscating. That's why I believe Tommen and Myrcella are doomed and there will be a younger, more beautiful queen. What matters here is Cersei getting things wrong more than tricking the audience with wordplay.

[Winnief]

Well we all knew that Cersei was going to be hoist on her own petard here....and when the moment finally came it was everything I'd dreamed of and more.  Great performances by LH and JP there.  Will this finally be the end of Smug Cersei?!?  Say it ain't so!

 

But did anyone else get a pit in their stomach when Cersei said, "I'd burn down cities" for her children, given Dany's vision of KL of smoky ruins?!?

[Spartan Girl]

It's too bad Tyrion wasn't there to see Cersei get arrested. He would have LOVED that....

[bluvelvet]

I won't lie, I was very moved by Cersei's impassioned speech to Tommen. I believed her though, she believes Margery is a threat to Tommen. With Joffrey dead she's determined to hang on to him more than ever. This is the same woman who was willing to poison her son to keep him from Stannis. However the goodwill vanished during her scene with Margery and turned to absolute delight when she was arrested. While she as threatening the Sept, I realized she still thinks that her being a Lannister makes her special. Will be interesting to see how she reacts to the black cells.

Also something else Cersei never got, you may hate someone but you look at the bigger picture. Example Tywin, he hated Tyrion but he made him acting Hand and then married him off to Sansa as a way to solidify a union with the North.

Edited May 26, 2015 by bluvelvet

[Funzlerks]

Why are the other lords putting up with the imprisonment of the Queen, her brother heir to the most powerful loyal house to the crown, and the Queen mother who is regent. Doesn't diminishing their power diminish the lords' power. Even if Cersei is isolating, the Lannisters and Tyrells have so many bannermen. I actually think Tommen had the right idea. Maybe he wouldn't be so bad if he actually had a chance to make a decision. The kingdom is basically the Lannisters and the Tyrells because the Vale has been allowed to do what it wants. Why is it only Olenna demanding that something be done?

[Winnief]

While she as threatening the Sept, I realized she still thinks that her being a Lannister makes her special.

 

As she told Olenna, "House Lannister has no rivals."  Dear Gods she's in for a rude awakening there. 

 

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if members of the Faith targeted poor Tommen for being an abomination.  Her attempt to protect her son, could ultimately be what gets him killed....because that is how these things go. 

[Conan Troutman]

Why are the other lords putting up with the imprisonment of the Queen, her brother heir to the most powerful loyal house to the crown, and the Queen mother who is regent.

 

What other Lords? The only ones left to care are the Tyrells...

 

Masterful job by Cersei, you have to admit it. It was a really remarkable effort in meticulous, well planned self destruction. Not even her biggest enemy could've possibly done a better job. Let's see how many Tyrells she can drag down the hole with her.

[darkestboy]

Cersei, love her as a character but she's a horrible person and not smart. She should've stamped out the Faith, not given them more power.

[DigitalCount]

That look on her face where the smile just freezes into a rictus grin and then she finally, finally sees the trap as it springs around her. I almost felt sorry for her, and then I remembered her and her new bestie working with dwarf heads for whatever ghoulish reason and it passed. Quickly.

[Advance35]

Well considering all that has happened, it feels like this thread has earned a comment on principle.   I've read the books and though she's presented differently there (skewed much more towards villainy) I never imagined how far Cersei Lannister would go.  The woman functions and propels herself on pure rage.  

I'm wondering if Cersei got the Wildfire idea from her confrontation with Olenna Tyrell.  Olenna said your surrounded by enemies, thousands of them, are you going to kill them all?  You've lost Cersei."  I remember Cersei was SHAKING with rage.   I think she hated Margaery Tyrell but she ensured Mace, Margaery and Loras were all in the Great Sept as a "Reins of  Castamere" FU to Olenna wherever she was.

I assume the people present for the trial were the A-List for the nobility in the Seven Kingdoms.  She murdered them and now sits on the Iron Throne so does that make everyone else in the Red Keep, her royal hostages, like Sansa was through Seasons 2-early 4?   Her coronation scene  was one of the most chilling scenes I recall on the show.

And someone pointed out elsewhere and I'm still wondering, whom is Cersei going after first.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes or Sansa?

[Constantinople]

41 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

whom is Cersei going after first.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes or Sansa?

How would Cersei be able to go after either?

Of course, it's a bit of a moot point given that the Dany Armada is bearing down on her.

[Umbelina]

Realistically, Cersei will have her hands full just trying to manage Kings Landing, I don't think she's in a position to go after anyone.  She might be able to pay for a few assassins though, since she never cared if her subjects would actually have food, clothing, or shelter. 

Hopefully the teleporting continues and Dany attacks KL soon though.  Maybe that's when (hopefully) Jamie kills her, Dany is invading, probably with no resistance from the masses at that point, it's not as if the citizenry is going to fight for Cersei, and she decides to set off more wildfire to kill them, who cares if the rest of her subjects die in the fire as well?  I'm looking forward to her full on crazy, since those are the only convincing scenes for me with this actress.

[Constantinople]

Quote

Cersei: You want to make things better for Sansa? Give her a child.

Tyrion: So you can tell Father it was you who finally talked me into it?

Cersei: So she can have some happiness in her life.

Tyrion: You have children. How happy would you say you are?

Cersei: Not very. But if it weren't for my children, I'd have thrown myself from the highest window in the Red Keep. They're the reason I'm alive.

Myhsa, Season 3 Episode 10

Still waiting.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Constantinople
Yes, Edmure still blows

[Lady S.]

[arjumand]

On 28/06/2016 at 1:38 PM, Advance35 said:

And someone pointed out elsewhere and I'm still wondering, whom is Cersei going after first.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes or Sansa?

The thing is, when Jaime gave that comment about Cersei still chasing Sansa for Tyrion's murder, I saw it more of an out for him with Brienne, or even trying to talk himself out of the logical thing to do, which would have been give up King's Landing and all within it as a lost cause. At the time he was speaking, Cersei had no power to do anything at all - she couldn't even stand next to her son, the King. I see the Sansa problem as being very much 'out of sight, out of mind' for Cersei.

Or we'll see in the season 7 opener - depending on her reaction when she's told that the Riverlands are either up for grabs or under Tully rule, and that the Boltons are toast and the North is in revolt, but, strangely enough, not interested in marching on King's Landing or whatever.

If she really wanted to be a real Queen rather than getting revenge on everything, she'd try to solve the little problem of who's controlling the Reach now that she's wiped out the Tyrells. And where are the King's Landing people going to get their food.

I fully expect Cersei and Jaime's first meeting to involve Cersei monologuing about her great revenge, and Jaime listening, with an enigmatic expression on his face. I mean, has he ever told her why he killed King Aerys? If she knows about that, she'll be going after him first.

[Luckylyn]

The  thing about Cersei is that she has some valid reasons for her anger.  She was discounted and blocked from excelling on her own because she was a woman.  Her only use in their society is to be married to whoever her father chooses regardless of her feelings on the matter and produce an heir.  For that I can almost sympathize but still she is an entitled, short sighted, arrogant, vindictive, and ruthless person.  She fixates on her own petty rivalries and takes actions that may give her a temporary victory but in the long term make situations much worse.  She never learns from past mistakes and keeps repeating the same pattern.  She never thinks ahead and considers the larger picture.  I can't get past the fact that a lot of this horror could have been avoided if she had not made the choice to use birth control with her husband and not her brother ensuring that her children were not legitimate heirs which put everyone at risk unnecessarily.    She claims to do things for her children's sake, but she created the danger for them in the first place while not taking personal responsibility for it.  Cersei wants the power she feels she deserves and was denied because she was a woman.  Her children were a path for her to gain power through them.  She did not raise them to be leaders but intended for them to be lead by her.  

[Lady S.]

On 7/2/2016 at 5:57 AM, arjumand said:

I fully expect Cersei and Jaime's first meeting to involve Cersei monologuing about her great revenge, and Jaime listening, with an enigmatic expression on his face. I mean, has he ever told her why he killed King Aerys? If she knows about that, she'll be going after him first.

I don't get the feeling the Lannisters really do a lot of confiding. Every scene with the twincesters has just been about them against the world and/or which of their kids had just been murdered. Neither has really shown much interest in the other as an individual imo. I can buy that Jaime only told Tyrion, because I think Tyrion would be the only to ask about what happened. For Cersei, I think the death of the Targs matters only in how it relates to her and her opportunity to be wife and mother of the new kings. I imagine she thought Jaime turned on Aerys just because Daddy did, which would be most people's natural assumption, but she'd think he did nothing wrong and shouldn't care what lesser beings said about him. I suppose it's also possible he did tell her, but I think that would mean she hid that from her bff Qyburn for some reason, since their discussion of "rumors" in 6.08 made it sound like she was only just learning of the Mad King's leftover wildfire.

[Helena Dax]

6 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

The  thing about Cersei is that she has some valid reasons for her anger.  She was discounted and blocked from excelling on her own because she was a woman.  Her only use in their society is to be married to whoever her father chooses regardless of her feelings on the matter and produce an heir.  For that I can almost sympathize but still she is an entitled, short sighted, arrogant, vindictive, and ruthless person. 

Yeah, I could almost sympathize with her if she wasn't the most misogynistic woman in Westeros. 

[Lady S.]

On 7/10/2016 at 5:49 PM, Helena Dax said:

Yeah, I could almost sympathize with her if she wasn't the most misogynistic woman in Westeros. 

Yeah, Cersei doesn't have a problem with women being treated unfairly, only with herself being treated unfairly. She think she's better than other women, and better than most men too. I actually think misogyny is too limited a term for Cersei, and that she just plain hates anyone who isn't Cersei. The other important people in her life were the Creators of Cersei (her mother and father), Male Cersei (Jaime) and the mix of Cersei and Male Cersei (her 3 kids by Jaime).

[TxanGoddess]

When Arya told Tywin, "Most girls are idiots," that was his prompt to say, "You sound just like my daughter."

Cersei is at the level of pathological problems with empathizing with other human beings, but she enjoys having categories for her contempt. 

[Luckylyn]

9 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, Cersei doesn't have a problem with women being treated unfairly, only with herself being treated unfairly. She think she's better than other women, and better than most men too. I actually think misogyny is too limited a term for Cersei, and that she just plain hates anyone who isn't Cersei. The other important people in her life were the Creators of Cersei (her mother and father), Male Cersei (Jaime) and the mix of Cersei and Male Cersei (her 3 kids by Jaime).

I'm firmly convinced the reason Cersei has sex Jaime is because it's like having sex with herself.   Also her narcissism is probably a big part of the reason she used birth control with Robert but not Jaime.   She wanted those kids to be exclusively extensions of herself regardless of the fact that it put the children in tremendous danger and risked instability for all of Westeros.   She fixates on harm that has come to her with no consideration to how she may have contributed to creating the situation in the first place.  Whatever humiliation and suffering the Sparrows inflicted on Cersei is what they intended to do to Loras, Margery, and other subjects of Kings Landing.  Cersei would have enjoyed watching the Sparrows inflict that pain to others.  It was okay for the Sparrows to terrorize others and Cersei empowered them to do so but when it affects her than she cares about putting an end to it.  Empathy isn't something Cersei is capable of.  Look at her lack of compassion for Jaime after what he went through being a hostage and losing his hand.  All she cared about was that she suffered when he was gone, and he wasn't there to protect her. 

[Winnief]

From Steve Attewell, comes a great breakdown of Cersei...

Quote

Finally, I’d say Cersei’s biggest problem as a politician is that, because of the fact that her political gifts and education was completely neglected by her father (who curiously seems to have never really taught any of his children his own political skills) and the way that her own gender constraints have created this curdled resentment inside, she’s really only suited to destroy rather than to build. As a usurper, Cersei is remarkably successful – she manages to thoroughly cuckold her husband, eliminate a formally more powerful enemy in the Hand of the King, and install herself as Queen Regent of Westeros. However, once she finally gets to the position she’s been working for her entire life, she has no idea what to do. She immediately loses control over her son’s actions, turning the relative cold war in the Riverlands into an immediate war with the Starks, and has no plans for dealing with either Baratheon beyond trying to command her father to abandon the war effort against the Starks and allow them to pin his army against the walls of King’s Landing.

The most instructive moment comes when the immediate threat to the Iron Throne is crushed; once Tywin actually establishes an alliance with the Tyrells and Martells (a diplomatic coup of the ages), her immediate instinct is to destroy this coalition, because she has no understanding of allies on an equal footing, again because she can’t conceive of others as either servants or enemies. This quality follows through to her choice of subordinates, where Cersei instinctively avoids competence for fear of competing agendas, and instead somewhat subconsciously appoints incompetents and traitors who she feel won’t question her decisions.

In the end, though, I think the real question is what Cersei would have looked like as a politician if she had grown up in a context where her gender and her political interests weren’t in conflict. Because for all that the medieval society of Westeros is truly oppressive to women, there are survival strategies for women with Cersei’s interests and qualities that she never had access to at the decidedly woman-free Casterly Rock. Margaery and Olenna Tyrell make the cultural proscriptions of gender work in their favor, Arianne Martell and the Sand Snakes show that there are alternative cultural spaces in Westeros, even Catelyn Tully doesn’t let the frustrations she feels with gender-imposed limitations poison her life.

All true....ESPECIALLY the part about how Cersei is great at destruction, (and what happened at the Sept was her master stroke,) but she CANNOT build.  Worse yet, I don't think she even knows she SHOULD build. 

[Avaleigh]

12 hours ago, Winnief said:

From Steve Attewell, comes a great breakdown of Cersei...

All true....ESPECIALLY the part about how Cersei is great at destruction, (and what happened at the Sept was her master stroke,) but she CANNOT build.  Worse yet, I don't think she even knows she SHOULD build. 

It's totally true and what's odd is that she's the only character to question what the High Sparrow intends to replace everything with after he tears down the world that they all know. 

[Advance35]

Quote

All true....ESPECIALLY the part about how Cersei is great at destruction, (and what happened at the Sept was her master stroke,) but she CANNOT build.  Worse yet, I don't think she even knows she SHOULD build. 

Agreed completely.  I think this is what makes Cersei so scary.  How do  you deal with someone like this.  The Tyrells were very shrewd and had they been contending with someone like the Starks, Baratheons or pretty much any other Great House they probably would have won the game.   Someone that apathetic or contemptuous towards everything and everyone, how do you contend against someone  like that?   It's why I felt so bad for Olenna, she wants to devastate Cersei for the Great Sept of Baelor but can Cersei be hurt the way Olenna wants?

I see comments around the net about how can Cersei possibly hold Kings Landing and how come the nobles in the city haven't revolted.   Am I the only one that doesn't have a hard time believing people are afraid of what she'll do next.  Whether she has Wildfire stashed in other places and they fear what she'll do at the sign of any dissension.   I also think that the Sept was filled with the most important nobles and that everyone in the Throne Room for her coronation was the B-Team of Kings Landing nobles, second tier if you will.   Second tier who are also now royal hostages like Sansa was.

[arjumand]

44 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I see comments around the net about how can Cersei possibly hold Kings Landing and how come the nobles in the city haven't revolted.   Am I the only one that doesn't have a hard time believing people are afraid of what she'll do next.  Whether she has Wildfire stashed in other places and they fear what she'll do at the sign of any dissension.   I also think that the Sept was filled with the most important nobles and that everyone in the Throne Room for her coronation was the B-Team of Kings Landing nobles, second tier if you will.   Second tier who are also now royal hostages like Sansa was.

Yeah - I read somewhere nitpicky that it's all wrong, that the smallfolk would be rioting in the streets, etc, after this attack on their religion, and so on, and so forth.

First of all, Melisandre* and Stannis did exactly the same thing, religion-wise, at Storm's End and Dragonstone - set fire to the statues, burned the Sept. Any of the nobles who refused to take the Lord of Light into their hearts were shown that there was a place for religious debate and discussion: on top of the next bonfire. No-one rebelled or protested after that. Gee, I wonder why.

And now we have an even greater show of power - if Cersei is admitting to what happened, everyone will be bowing down to her, because they'd like to not be blown up, thanks very much.

Also, who was really taken out in the explosion? The A-list nobles and the Faith Militant. None of the smallfolk cared about the nobles, and the Faith Militant were the only ones 'on the smallfolk's side'. There were no soldiers in the sept, no Tyrell men, Lannister men, etc. Cersei still has the City Watch, the Queensguard, and the Mountain, who seems to sense it whenever anyone's talking trash about the regime.

Also, clever Cersei- ha ha! Who am I kidding? Clever Qyburn can even put a further spin on it - the wildfire was brought by the Seven, angry at how the Faith Militant were perverting their message, and the nobles who were going along with it.

Now, when food starts running out, that's when we'll have a problem, and not before. Seriously, if critics are expecting the smallfolk to riot because their temple has been destroyed, King's Landing is the wrong place to expect it. They were never full of religious fervour - they were just glad that someone seemed to care about them for a change, and that the bitch who would have let them starve was shamed and that they could yell and throw shit at her.

*I just read a whole bit on how awesome book Mel is, and it pissed me off so much, I could spit fire at this point. At least with the Seven, the septons and septas (the High Sparrow and Unella were exceptions to the ones we've seen in other parts of the books) try to help people through education and guidance. Melisandre's answer to everything is SET IT ON FIRE! Sure, she sees the threat of the Night's King etc, but by that time she's done so much fire-related shit I just can't reconcile to her.

[Helena Dax]

One more thing about Cersei: had she been a boy, she would have received the same respect from Tywin than Jaime or Tyrion did: zero. Her problem isn't only being a woman in a patriarchal society, it's also that her father is Tywin Lannister and you just can't say no to Tywin Lannister. He would have had plans for male Cersei too and he wouldn't have cared if (s)he liked them or not. And all that stuff about being forced to marry Robert? Tywin would have arranged male Cersei's marriage too, just as he did with Tyrion. It's the way arranged marriages work, for men and women. But of course, Cersei idolizes him and doesn't understand that he messed up all his children, just in a different way.

What I mean is that even in a patriarchal society like Westeros, individuals still matter. Ned supported Arya when he saw she really wanted to know how to use a sword. The Tyrells were supporting Margaery's ambitions. Tyrion knew having sex with Sansa would be wrong. Tywin (and Robert) could have treated Cersei with more respect; they just didn't. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

And all that stuff about being forced to marry Robert? Tywin would have arranged male Cersei's marriage too, just as he did with Tyrion. It's the way arranged marriages work, for men and women. But of course, Cersei idolizes him and doesn't understand that he messed up all his children, just in a different way.

Supposedly Cersei was thrilled to marry Robert.  Robert was a great warrior, young, and handsome.  Not to mention marrying him would make her queen.  The problem is that Robert was still in love with Lyanna.

I will spoiler tag the rest, because I do not know if what I am saying is obvious to show watchers.
 

Spoiler

 

Cersei was considered one of the most beautiful women in Westeros in her youth with her typical Lannister good looks. I believe had a fascination with Rhaegar and and she really believed that if he had seen her, he would not have looked twice at the "Wolf Girl".

It was quite a blow to her ego that Robert did not love her like Lyanna.  The reason I bring this up is she really did not mind the arranged marriage at first.  Tywin could be horrible at time, but what he did was not different then any other lords do with their children in arranging political alliances with marriage.

Truthfully, one of the things that did hurt her was that Jamie was always so blindly devoted to her (more in the show then the book) and his presence helped enable some of her worst behavior.

Cersei is the consumate victim and she never takes responsibility for her actions.  Being a man would not have changed her character.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by qtpye

[qtpye]

On 7/13/2016 at 9:38 AM, Winnief said:

In the end, though, I think the real question is what Cersei would have looked like as a politician if she had grown up in a context where her gender and her political interests weren’t in conflict. Because for all that the medieval society of Westeros is truly oppressive to women, there are survival strategies for women with Cersei’s interests and qualities that she never had access to at the decidedly woman-free Casterly Rock. Margaery and Olenna Tyrell make the cultural proscriptions of gender work in their favor, Arianne Martell and the Sand Snakes show that there are alternative cultural spaces in Westeros, even Catelyn Tully doesn’t let the frustrations she feels with gender-imposed limitations poison her life.

Tyrion is treated horribly by his sister and father.  However, he counts himself lucky that as a dwarf, he was born into the powerful Lannister family.  He is keenly aware of his privilege and how much harder his life would have been if he was one of the small folk (at least in the book).

Cersei never sees the good things in her life.  Before her children died, she was a beautiful queen who had all the privileges and luxury afforded to a woman in this world.  Yes, there was sadness and unfairness in her life.  It was unfair that her wonderful mother died giving birth to a monster (at least in Cersei's opinion).  It is unfair how women are looked upon as chattel in this world.  It angered her that Robert would be forever in love with a dead woman, even though she herself was in love with her brother.  She actually was in a position to make life easier for her people, but she is incapable of caring about anyone outside of herself.  Her children and Jamie are just manifestations of her own ego and pride.