Cersei Lannister: Not As Smart As She Thinks She Is

[SimoneS]

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

Tyrion is treated horribly by his sister and father.  However, he counts himself lucky that as a dwarf, he was born into the powerful Lannister family.  He is keenly aware of his privilege and how much harder his life would have been if he was one of the small folk (at least in the book).

Cersei never sees the good things in her life.  Before her children died, she was a beautiful queen who had all the privileges and luxury afforded to a woman in this world.  Yes, there was sadness and unfairness in her life.  It was unfair that her wonderful mother died giving birth to a monster (at least in Cersei's opinion).  It is unfair how women are looked upon as chattel in this world.  It angered her that Robert would be forever in love with a dead woman, even though she herself was in love with her brother.  She actually was in a position to make life easier for her people, but she is incapable of caring about anyone outside of herself.  Her children and Jamie are just manifestations of her own ego and pride.

Exactly. I don't buy any excuses for Cersei's soullessness. She had a pretty good life. So what if Robert didn't love her, she was in love with Jaime and fucking and conceiving children with him. She could have chosen to be generous and kind to her everyone around her as well as the poor in King's Landing. Instead she schemed and engaged in needless cruelty that made enemies of her family's wealthy allies, the Tyrells, destroyed her own children, and will end up destroying her. I always compare Cersei to Daenerys who had it much worse. Viserys subjugated Daenerys, disgustedly ogled her naked and fondled her breast. He sold her to Kal Drogo for an army and was still determined to abuse and control her. Yet Daenerys still cared about the women who the Dothraki raped and has been determined to free the oppressed from slavery.

Edited July 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Exactly. I don't buy any excuses for Cersei's soullessness. She had a pretty good life. So what if Robert didn't love her, she was in love with Jaime and fucking and conceiving children with him. She could have chosen to generous and kind to her everyone around her as well as the poor in King's Landing. Instead she schemed and engaged in needless cruelty that made enemies of her family's wealthy allies, the Tyrells, destroyed her own children, and will end up destroying her. I always compare Cersei to Daenerys who had it much worse. Viserys subjugated Daenerys, disgustedly ogled her naked and fondled her breast. He sold her to Kal Drogo for an army and still determined to abuse and control her. Yet Daenerys still cared about the women who the Dothraki raped and has been determined to free the oppressed from slavery.

One thing, as ruthless as Khal Drogo was and as bad as their marriage started out, he ended up truly loving Daenerys and only her and it helped he wasn't pinning away for someone else, like Robert did. Having it confirmed that Jon is Lyanna's child and not with Robert, I wonder if Ned's kids glove approach with her had more to do with guilt with not telling Robert the full extent of Lyanna's feeling towards him, which might have improved their marriage than his honor. If Tywin had raised to be more politically shrewd like Olenna did Maragery, she might have not been so adversarial towards everyone she didn't consider her own.

[SimoneS]

14 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

One thing, as ruthless as Khal Drogo was and as bad as their marriage started out, he ended up truly loving Daenerys and only her and it helped he wasn't pinning away for someone else, like Robert did. Having it confirmed that Jon is Lyanna's child and not with Robert, I wonder if Ned's kids glove approach with her had more to do with guilt with not telling Robert the full extent of Lyanna's feeling towards him, which might have improved their marriage than his honor. If Tywin had raised to be more politically shrewd like Olenna did Maragery, she might have not been so adversarial towards everyone she didn't consider her own.

More excuses for Cersei. So what if Robert fell in love with her? She was not in love with him. Frankly, it is a testament to Robert's good judgement that he did not fall in love with such a vicious soulless woman. He and Drogo have that in common.Besides, this is about Cersei not Robert, not Jaime, not Tywinn. Cersei was a child when she started being physically cruel to Tyrion. She and Jaime grew in the same household, yet he managed not to hate Tyrion. If Cersei had been a man, she would have been her father, not Jaime or Tyrion. I completely believe that one's environment influences who you grow up to become, but it doesn't mean that you cannot make different choices and decide how to live your life. It would have cost Cersei nothing to let the people have the food left over from the wedding, but she refuses to be generous or compassion. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

More excuses for Cersei. So what if Robert fell in love with her? She was not in love with him. Frankly, it is a testament to Robert's good judgement that he did not fall in love with such a vicious soulless woman. He and Drogo have that in common.Besides, this about Cersei not Robert, not Jaime, not Tywinn.

Quote

Exactly. I don't buy any excuses for Cersei's soullessness. She had a pretty good life. So what if Robert didn't love her, she was in love with Jaime and fucking and conceiving children with him. She could have chosen to generous and kind to her everyone around her as well as the poor in King's Landing. Instead she schemed and engaged in needless cruelty that made enemies of her family's wealthy allies, the Tyrells, destroyed her own children, and will end up destroying her. I always compare Cersei to Daenerys who had it much worse. Viserys subjugated Daenerys, disgustedly ogled her naked and fondled her breast. He sold her to Kal Drogo for an army and still determined to abuse and control her. Yet Daenerys still cared about the women who the Dothraki raped and has been determined to free the oppressed from slavery.

It is crazy how people make excuses for Cersei.  I hate the plot point of the prophecy, because some people are like "poor thing, this black cloud made her bad".

NO...a black cloud is having your family brutally murdered, living on the run with your abusive brother, and then being sold off like cattle to a war lord.  A black cloud is being a child starving on the streets of flea bottom and watching Cersei feed extra food to the dogs.  A black cloud is watching your father be beheaded and then having to hide on the streets or be at the mercy of the people who killed him.

I could go on, but it is pointless.  Also, Cersei has always had a male protector in her brother, father, and now the Mountain to look out for her, unlike a lot of the other women in the series.

I think something about Cersei taps into something about ourselves.  We all have a touch (some people more then others) of that dark, petty, mean, and malicious place in our soul, that most of us can overcome.  Cersei is a total manifestation of this and it is helped by Lena's amazing performance on the show. 

She is like a mirror for our nastiest selves.  The other villains in the series are so bad that there is nothing there to relate to...example Ramsay Bolton.  However, Cersei is so horribly human that it both painful and pitiful at the same time.

[BlackberryJam]

Cersei is dreadful. And she feels justified in her actions. There are posts in other places (Tumblr) about how Cersei had no choice but to blow up the sept and all I can think is "What?" Cersei had so so so many choices throughout her life. She had more choice than Pia or Hildy, more choice than Arya or Sansa. Cersei did have choices and she chose to do the worst possible thing every single time. (Hello, Melara Heatherspoon. How ya doin', Tyrion's penis?)

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

More excuses for Cersei. So what if Robert fell in love with her? She was not in love with him. Frankly, it is a testament to Robert's good judgement that he did not fall in love with such a vicious soulless woman. He and Drogo have that in common.Besides, this about Cersei not Robert, not Jaime, not Tywinn. Cersei was a child when she started being physically cruel to Tyrion. She and Jaime grew in the same household, yet he managed not to hate Tyrion. If Cersei had been a man, she would have been her father, not Jaime or Tyrion. I completely believe that one's environment influences who you grow up to become, but it doesn't mean that you cannot make different choices and decide how to live your life. It would have cost Cersei nothing to let the people have the food left over from the wedding, but she refuses to be generous or compassion. 

Environment does play a huge role in development. For example: even left leaning think tanks discovered if the factor of single parenthood is taken out of the equation, the imbalance between black and white incarceration disappears completely. All those men and women in prison are there because of the choices they made, nor should be released because of their childhoods, but it does illustrate early has to carefully handled in order to not raise criminals. Tywin never thought once to properly school her in diplomacy (it also doesn't help he just didn't believe in showing much, if any kindness), even though he wanted to raise a queen consort.  Do I think she would become as compassionate as say, Dany no, but she might have become on par with Olenna in giving the people enough bread and circuses to keep them relatively happy. If, like Dany, she made more of an effort to get Robert to fall in love with her instead her writing off Robert when he called out his dead fiancé name she probably would have been happier for, however Robert knowing the truth early on, might have allowed him to feed into Cersei's  ego if he was regularly insulting Lyanna. I think if she more like Maragery, who tried to make it work with a man more interested in fucking brother, and was understanding enough not bear him no ill will, she would have gotten Robert to fall in love with her. 

[qtpye]

14 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Environment does play a huge role in development. For example: even left leaning think tanks discovered if the factor of single parenthood is taken out of the equation, the imbalance between black and white incarceration disappears completely. All those men and women in prison are there because of the choices they made, nor should be released because of their childhoods, but it does illustrate early has to carefully handled in order to not raise criminals. Tywin never thought once to properly school her in diplomacy (it also doesn't help he just didn't believe in showing much, if any kindness), even though he wanted to raise a queen consort.  Do I think she would become as compassionate as say, Dany no, but she might have become on par with Olenna in giving the people enough bread and circuses to keep them relatively happy. If, like Dany, she made more of an effort to get Robert to fall in love with her instead her writing off Robert when he called out his dead fiancé name she probably would have been happier for, however Robert knowing the truth early on, might have allowed him to feed into Cersei's  ego if he was regularly insulting Lyanna. I think if she more like Maragery, who tried to make it work with a man more interested in fucking brother, and was understanding enough not bear him no ill will, she would have gotten Robert to fall in love with her. 

If Cersei was given any of these advantages, she would not appreciate it, she would still just think about what she has not been given.

If her father taught her diplomacy, then she would pout, because he is only teaching her to be a consort, instead of the way he would teach boy.  If Robert fell in love with her, she would just be angry that he is not Rhaegar and later disgusted by his appearance.

Many people defend Cercei, because they think she would have been different, if she had been raised under different circumstances.  Our environment does shape a great portion of who we are, but I think it is her very nature never to be happy or satisfied.

She is like a billionaire who cries because he can not reach a penny under the couch.  There is nothing that will make her happy, she will always want more.

Edited July 21, 2016 by qtpye

[Ambrosefolly]

16 minutes ago, qtpye said:

If Cersei was given any of these advantages, she would not appreciate it, she would still just think about what she has not been given.

If her father taught her diplomacy, then she would pout, because he is only teaching her to be a consort, instead of the way he would teach boy.  If Robert fell in love with her, she would just be angry that he is not Rhaegar and later disgusted by his appearance.

Many people defend Cercei, because they think she would have been different, if she had been raised under different circumstances.  Our environment does shape a great portion of who we are, but I think it is her very nature never to be happy or satisfied.

She is like a billionaire who cries because he can not reach a penny under the couch.  There is nothing that will make her happy, she will always want more.

Maybe or maybe not. But maybe if Tywin shown her a little more respect, she would have channelled her negative qualities better and learn to play the long game. Besides, rich people stay rich for a reason.

[qtpye]

Quote

Maybe or maybe not. But maybe if Tywin shown her a little more respect, she would have channelled her negative qualities better and learn to play the long game. Besides, rich people stay rich for a reason.

I actually loved that Tywin called her on her shit.  He told her several times he had no problem with her being a female.  Tywin was one of the few lords that loved and respected his wife dearly.  He knew, in all honesty, that she is an vicious mean sadistic idiot.

Its like Ted Bundy.  The guy was a serial killer, but he had it all.  He was from a good family, was incredibly handsome, and was considered very smart.

Cersei's a sociopath rather then a psychopath.  She is not clever enough to hide her baser instincts. 

I do agree that it is impossible to tell how someone would have been under different circumstances.  We just can speculate based on our own opinions and observations.  I mean, perhaps Tywin's love would have made all the difference in the world for her...you never know.

[Ambrosefolly]

20 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I actually loved that Tywin called her on her shit.  He told her several times he had no problem with her being a female.  Tywin was one of the few lords that loved and respected his wife dearly.  He knew, in all honesty, that she is an vicious mean sadistic idiot.

And that is why I loved it when she admitted to her affair with Jaime and threaten to burn the house down with her revealing that all of his grandchildren are not in line to the throne, effectively the visage that he had any business running the seven kingdoms. As with Tyrion, he was over confident that the respect that he had as her father and his rep would be enough to not get Cersei to step out of line. Cersei, like Joffrey, is someone that shouldn't have power, but fact is she was his only daughter and the only way to get someone with Lannister blood to legitimately sit on the Iron Throne, so the very least he could attempt to make her a proper guide for any monarch she might produce. 

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

One thing, as ruthless as Khal Drogo was and as bad as their marriage started out, he ended up truly loving Daenerys and only her and it helped he wasn't pinning away for someone else, like Robert did. Having it confirmed that Jon is Lyanna's child and not with Robert, I wonder if Ned's kids glove approach with her had more to do with guilt with not telling Robert the full extent of Lyanna's feeling towards him, which might have improved their marriage than his honor. If Tywin had raised to be more politically shrewd like Olenna did Maragery, she might have not been so adversarial towards everyone she didn't consider her own.

Actually, that made no difference at all in how Danaerys' personality developed. She'd have cared for the people whether Drogo loved her or not. Drogo wouldn't pine for anyone because his culture just doesn't have that. Dothraki men don't pine for women. They buy them, they abduct them, or they rape them. They don't pine and they don't really love, either. It's a charming fantasy that Drogo loved Danaerys, but I've always felt the need to put it in quotations marks.

Cersei simply has no capacity for caring about others. She has absolutely no sadness or sympathy hearing about starving people or other women getting raped or any kind of hardship. Even Jaime losing a hand only disgusted her as opposed to arousing any sympathetic or sorrowful feelings. She wasn't the slightest bit concerned about Tommen being bullied by Joffrey. What she cared about, all she ever cared about, was what she considered her due.

That's just the kind of person she is. Lovers are incidental and in no way create a person's character, which is more or less developed by age 5. Cersei was always this way. Robert wasn't pleasant, but there's really no "if only he'd loved her she'd have been like Danaerys." No, she wouldn't.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Hecate7

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Actually, that made no difference at all in how Danaerys' personality developed. She'd have cared for the people whether Drogo loved her or not. Drogo wouldn't pine for anyone because his culture just doesn't have that. Dothraki men don't pine for women. They buy them, they abduct them, or they rape them. They don't pine and they don't really love, either. It's a charming fantasy that Drogo loved Danaerys, but I've always felt the need to put it in quotations marks.

Cersei simply has no capacity for caring about others. She has absolutely no sadness or sympathy hearing about starving people or other women getting raped or any kind of hardship. Even Jaime losing a hand only disgusted her as opposed to arousing any sympathetic or sorrowful feelings. She wasn't the slightest bit concerned about Tommen being bullied by Joffrey. What she cared about, all she ever cared about, was what she considered her due.

That's just the kind of person she is. Lovers are incidental and in no way create a person's character, which is more or less developed by age 5. Cersei was always this way. Robert wasn't pleasant, but there's really no "if only he'd loved her she'd have been like Danaerys." No, she wouldn't.

I never said she would have been like Daenerys even if Robert had loved her. At best, she might have been like Olenna. I even pointed out that Cersei gave up too easily after Robert yelled out Lyanna's name on their wedding night, not comprehending she might have gotten Robert to love her like he loved Lyanna, and forgetting that Lyanna had just died. If Maragery had been in her position, she would have been unfazed by that incident and would have worked her hardest to get the marriage to work.  I disagree about Drogo as well. While I will never celebrate their love story, Dany did manage to get Drogo to heel somewhat, and gave her liberties that probably not even other Khaleesis enjoyed. If Drogo always continued to view her as he did when he first married her, he wouldn't have allowed Daenerys to take the women from that town they enslaved, not to mention chuckle when she talked back to one of his warriors.

[SimoneS]

37 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I never said she would have been like Daenerys even if Robert had loved her. At best, she might have been like Olenna. I even pointed out that Cersei gave up too easily after Robert yelled out Lyanna's name on their wedding night, not comprehending she might have gotten Robert to love her like he loved Lyanna, and forgetting that Lyanna had just died. If Maragery had been in her position, she would have been unfazed by that incident and would have worked her hardest to get the marriage to work.  I disagree about Drogo as well. While I will never celebrate their love story, Dany did manage to get Drogo to heel somewhat, and gave her liberties that probably not even other Khaleesis enjoyed. If Drogo always continued to view her as he did when he first married her, he wouldn't have allowed Daenerys to take the women from that town they enslaved, not to mention chuckle when she talked back to one of his warriors.

I said that "I completely believe that one's environment influences who you grow up to become, but it doesn't mean that you cannot make different choices and decide how to live your life." I do not give any weight to think thank research, only peer-reviewed research. Many peer-reviews studies have found that people of color and poor people are investigated, prosecuted, and subjected to different jury verdicts and sentencing that whites. It has little or nothing to do with single parenthood. 

Again, so what if Robert loved Cersei? She didn't love him. She loved Jaime and having him in her life and having his children still wasn't enough to make her happy. If Twyin really is the reason that Cersei is so vile, how come Tyrion who he treated worse isn't? Besides, Cersei's life isn't much different from any offspring of a wealthy powerful family. The more power you have in Westeros, the less choice you have in who you marry. Marriages are to form alliances and there are tons of loveless marriages. Olenna wasn't a vile callous excuse for a human being like Cersei because her husband loved her. She just never wasn't Cersei from jump. Just like Margaery and Daenerys aren't Cersei.

Robert's love, any man's love, isn't magic that fixes a lack of character or sociopathy such as the what afflicts Cersei. Look at Brienne, she could have become vile and bitter when Renly didn't return her love, but instead after being rejected and allowed to make her own choices, she sworn an oath to serve Renly. Yet Brienne is one of the most honorable and kind people around. There are no excuses for Cersei's vileness, callousness, and depravity. She chooses to be who she is. 

I am repeating myself so I stop now.

Edited July 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[Ambrosefolly]

All of Tywin's children are messed up one way or another. Tyron might be the most moral person in his family, but Tywin's abuse has caused him to self medicate with drink, sex and food, but mostly drink. I will say this, Cersei might have the low cunning to pull off certain feats, but she lacks the long term planning of even Sansa to hold onto power. 

I don't even she loves Jaime. She is so narcissistic that at this point the only person she can trick herself into thinking she genuinely loves is the male twin that people used to confuse her for. 

[Lady S.]

16 hours ago, qtpye said:

It is crazy how people make excuses for Cersei.  I hate the plot point of the prophecy, because some people are like "poor thing, this black cloud made her bad".

I think the prophecy only makes sense if Cersei didn't put much stock in it until Joffrey's death. If she was actually living in terror from it, there was one very easy way to disprove it. She was told she and the king would have no children but she deliberately made sure that part of the prophecy came true. Pretty counter-productive if she wanted to get rid of that black cloud, right?

[Hecate7]

On 7/21/2016 at 1:32 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I never said she would have been like Daenerys even if Robert had loved her. At best, she might have been like Olenna. I even pointed out that Cersei gave up too easily after Robert yelled out Lyanna's name on their wedding night, not comprehending she might have gotten Robert to love her like he loved Lyanna, and forgetting that Lyanna had just died. If Maragery had been in her position, she would have been unfazed by that incident and would have worked her hardest to get the marriage to work.  I disagree about Drogo as well. While I will never celebrate their love story, Dany did manage to get Drogo to heel somewhat, and gave her liberties that probably not even other Khaleesis enjoyed. If Drogo always continued to view her as he did when he first married her, he wouldn't have allowed Daenerys to take the women from that town they enslaved, not to mention chuckle when she talked back to one of his warriors.

Never said he didn't treat her well, never said Drogo didn't feel differently after he impregnated her than he did when he first married her. But he "loved" her in the sense that she was a prize possession, a brood mare about to deliver his son. It is actually fortunate that Danaerys never got to experience what life would have been like for her after the birth of that son, who would have completely replaced her as the focus of Drogo's pride and joy and positive emotions. No child that came later could ever have mattered as much to Drogo, and neither would Danaerys anymore. Danaerys' forceful personality, which Drogo excused as being caused by the strong male son inside her, would have annoyed Drogo eventually. He still would have called her moon of his delight, but he would have stopped indulging her in ordering good treatment of prisoners, for instance. At no time did he ever truly love her in the sense of caring more about her feelings or welfare than his own. Danaerys and Cersei make interesting foils, though.

[Ambrosefolly]

5 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Never said he didn't treat her well, never said Drogo didn't feel differently after he impregnated her than he did when he first married her. But he "loved" her in the sense that she was a prize possession, a brood mare about to deliver his son. It is actually fortunate that Danaerys never got to experience what life would have been like for her after the birth of that son, who would have completely replaced her as the focus of Drogo's pride and joy and positive emotions. No child that came later could ever have mattered as much to Drogo, and neither would Danaerys anymore. Danaerys' forceful personality, which Drogo excused as being caused by the strong male son inside her, would have annoyed Drogo eventually. He still would have called her moon of his delight, but he would have stopped indulging her in ordering good treatment of prisoners, for instance. At no time did he ever truly love her in the sense of caring more about her feelings or welfare than his own. Danaerys and Cersei make interesting foils, though.

According to the actor that played Drogo, he fell in love with Daenerys, so I am going to take that as cannon and she probably would have been smart enough to be a stronger influence on their son, as Drogo wouldn't be involved in actively raising him during the first few years.

[Hecate7]

20 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

According to the actor that played Drogo, he fell in love with Daenerys, so I am going to take that as cannon and she probably would have been smart enough to be a stronger influence on their son, as Drogo wouldn't be involved in actively raising him during the first few years.

Doubt that's how Dothraki society works, considering how uniformly misogynistic and violent all the men seem to be. It's a rape culture, it's a nomadic warlike culture, and very patriarchal, and so I think any influence Danaerys could have would be completely undermined from the very start.

Drogo being "in love" doesn't make that much difference, honestly. Romantic love is not a formative influence on personality.

[Ambrosefolly]

Whether Drogo was incapable of being in love with Dany or not, I think it is immaterial. Dany believed he did because Drogo acted like it, to the point that she weirdly venerates his memory. Drogo's favor of her gave her enough courage to start standing up to her brother and command the horde, even if it was to stop and rest. Also, her feeling like she in control in the bedroom probably helped her bond with her unborn son, which she might have resented if she continued to feel that she was no control of her marriage to Drogo. 

Westeros was less rapey and more respectful of woman. Maybe Cersei would have never truly loved Robert (despite what Lena Headley has said about the character) but she did more to get Robert to her side instead of completely writing him off in what was the first day of their arranged marriage, she might not have been less contemptuous of all things Baratheon and even increased the strength of the house. If Cersei was less impulsive and more intelligent, Cersai could have succeed long term where Dany might have eventually failed after the birth of her son. 

On July 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM, SimoneS said:

I said that "I completely believe that one's environment influences who you grow up to become, but it doesn't mean that you cannot make different choices and decide how to live your life." I do not give any weight to think thank research, only peer-reviewed research. Many peer-reviews studies have found that people of color and poor people are investigated, prosecuted, and subjected to different jury verdicts and sentencing that whites. It has little or nothing to do with single parenthood. 

Finding out if the prison population comes from a home where biological mother and father were married and/or lived together to raise their offspring is easy enough to find out. The think tank didn't pull this statistics out of thin air, which is probably why it wasn't peer reviewed (or they were trying to discredit a conservative think tank and failed).  Larry Elder ( a black conservative) recounted a story where all prison inmates would send out Mother's Day cards, but none sent out Father's Day cards when that day rolled around. Either it was a special case, or this is par for the course, meaning people that don't have a set of responsible parents to actively raise them are pretty screwed.

[Hecate7]

21 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Westeros was less rapey and more respectful of woman. Maybe Cersei would have never truly loved Robert (despite what Lena Headley has said about the character) but she did more to get Robert to her side instead of completely writing him off in what was the first day of their arranged marriage, she might not have been less contemptuous of all things Baratheon and even increased the strength of the house. If Cersei was less impulsive and more intelligent, Cersai could have succeed long term where Dany might have eventually failed after the birth of her son.

On a purely superficial level, sure. But really the Dothraki are just more overt and obvious about it.

Quote

Finding out if the prison population comes from a home where biological mother and father were married and/or lived together to raise their offspring is easy enough to find out. The think tank didn't pull this statistics out of thin air, which is probably why it wasn't peer reviewed (or they were trying to discredit a conservative think tank and failed).  Larry Elder ( a black conservative) recounted a story where all prison inmates would send out Mother's Day cards, but none sent out Father's Day cards when that day rolled around. Either it was a special case, or this is par for the course, meaning people that don't have a set of responsible parents to actively raise them are pretty screwed.

It's an anecdote by a conservative meant to deliver a point, not a scientific study by Johns Hopkins or anything like  that. The "prison population" doesn't exclude falsely convicted people, people there for smoking pot, people there for breaking laws that didn't used to even exist, etc...Moreover, there are plenty of people from single parent homes, same sex homes, remarried homes with several sets of stepparents, people raised by their grandmothers, people who grew up in orphanages, even, who never end up anywhere near a prison. More than one president was raised by a single mother with the influence of a grandfather--I guess they'd have sent Father's Day cards to granddad. Was Larry Elder one of the inmates? A parole officer? A guard? How did he know how many sent Mother's or Father's Day cards anyway? It's anecdotal, not hard evidence of anything. A greeting card once a year proves very little--perhaps those mothers were very problematic as well.

BTW, it wasn't peer reviewed because Larry Elder is a personality, not a researcher. He is an inspirational speaker and can say what he likes--it doesn't have to be true because he's not even really a journalist. His job is to say stuff that conservatives and libertarians like, not to present hard evidence or solid research. The man likes "Atlas Shrugged." Nuff said. Think tanks are not to be confused with the research departments of universities. They are not paid to tell the truth--they are paid to make conservative money sources happy. Nobody would bother to peer review this type of "research," nor would anyone make the effort to "debunk" it, because it's not even pretending to be science.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Hecate7

[Ambrosefolly]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

On a purely superficial level, sure. But really the Dothraki are just more overt and obvious about it.

For a great warrior, Robert sure was hung up on the memory of Lyanna, even if it was superficial. He might have been swayed to embrace Cersei as wife, as Catelyn embraced Ned as her husband, despite being completely in love with his bad boy older brother. Since Cersei is a superficial person, it might have been all she needed, especially if Robert openly showed he cared about her.

Quote

It's an anecdote by a conservative meant to deliver a point, not a scientific study by Johns Hopkins or anything like  that. The "prison population" doesn't exclude falsely convicted people, people there for smoking pot, people there for breaking laws that didn't used to even exist, etc...Moreover, there are plenty of people from single parent homes, same sex homes, remarried homes with several sets of stepparents, people raised by their grandmothers, people who grew up in orphanages, even, who never end up anywhere near a prison. More than one president was raised by a single mother with the influence of a grandfather--I guess they'd have sent Father's Day cards to granddad. Was Larry Elder one of the inmates? A parole officer? A guard? How did he know how many sent Mother's or Father's Day cards anyway? It's anecdotal, not hard evidence of anything. A greeting card once a year proves very little--perhaps those mothers were very problematic as well.

It has been shown that having a step father (or a string of boyfriends) can be pretty dangerous, more so than a single mother, since the person has no biological stake in the outcome of the child (not saying that step parents can't do a fine job. I know a very friendly, popular woman that was raised by a step father and never met her biological dad). And it isn't just anecdotal, but it is multiple, unrelated studies done across  many institutions, like the Progressive Policy Institute, who I used, but initial didn't cite. I used the anecdotal one, because that study wasn't believed (but not discredited). It isn't just prison, but rates of teen pregnancy, runaways and suicide also increase dramatically because of single motherhood. So unless those rates are also somehow caused by our courts and the law, how one turns out is greatly effected by how they were raised. Also, you are not developing by the time your a child, but the time your are 26. So Cersei, at 19, might have been able to change into a more supportive (though probably still ruthless) wife if  Robert had fallen in love with her.  She would still be a bitch, but maybe one that wanted her husband's house to succeed.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[TxanGoddess]

This was brought to my attention in another capacity today but as soon as I read about it I was like "ooh this is Cersei!"  It's a psychological classification called the dark triad.  For Joffrey see the dark tetrad.  The Dark Triad Wiki Page

[Lady S.]

From Jaime's thread:

Quote

Yes, but it seems other houses like the Starks and Tyrells (or Redweynes, Olenna's house) realized that not only would the women have to give birth to the heirs of the houses, but would also need to be a strong figure to rear the children if they didn't die in children. While I expect Tywin was pissed that he was passed over for Hand for Jon Arynn, he (rightly) believed that if he outlived Robert Baratheon, he would be appointed Hand and the power behind the throne, so he didn't raise Cersei to be an operator like Olenna did for Maragarey (though she over focused on that at the expense of Mace) so he could consolidate more power for himself. Considering he knew first hand that it would be difficult for Robert to move on quickly from a woman he believed to be the love of his life, he should have warned her not to take Robert's misery personally and win him to her side. 

Tywin may have hoped to outlive Jon Arryn and Robert based on one's advanced age and the other's unhealthy lifestyle, but he couldn't have counted on them both dying before Joff reached his majority, which barely worked out in the timeline as is. So who was he trusting to raise Joffrey as a respectable king and future Tywin partner, as a major representative of the Lannister legacy? Not Robert, who Tywin didn't respect as a king or as a man. He left Cersei to handle Joffrey without a second thought until such time as that blew up in his face with Ned's execution. So I don't think he wanted her to be a purely ornamental sex slave/brood mare. Tywin's control freak parenting impeded all three of his children, I don't think he was hoarding his power from his daughter in particular. The fact that Tywin didn't prepare Cersei to be more like Olenna or Marg probably has to do with the fact that in most families the fathers train their sons and leave their daughters to the mother. I don't think those other families had more insight into women's roles, they just actually had women to train their daughters. Tywin should have picked up the slack with Joanna gone since he refused to replace her with another wife. He chose to be a single father so that he did fail Cersei selfishly in that sense, but I'm just saying I think his ideal would be Joanna alive and Cersei being raised by her mother to be like her, not he and Joanna waiting to sell Cersei off to produce boy children who would hatch fully formed to carry on Tywin's legacy.

[Leila6]

I don't understand people who make excuses for Cersei. She is a despicable person who has always been despicable. Death at the hands of the valonqar is too good for her. 

[Francie]

Book Marjory it is less clear to me what she wanted vs what her family wanted, but she is a willing enough pawn. Show Marge is a player playing with fire.  

Agreed. Though because Book Margaery was sharing the wine cup with Joffrey, it’s virtually impossible not to conclude that she was informed of the conspiracy and had her role to play.  In the book, Loras loudly makes that declaration, implying that whoever committed the crime was throwing Margaery under the bus as well.  They were trying to insulate themselves from suspicious with that ploy.

 I may enjoy their characters, but it's not because I admire them.

We largely feel the same way.  I can admire some traits, or the audacity, or an impressive quick turn of phrase.

  As for Cersei not murdering a teen-aged boy, I'm sure she did.

She’s never targeted a teen age boy, like Olenna did.  As you’ve gone there with the books, Joffrey – in the books – is a 13 or 14 year old kid, and Martin’s on record saying he wrote him as a typical teen age bully. A bully, George said, that might be the type to grow out of it when he’s older. That’s his description of Joffrey, not mine.  And George goes on to state that, because of his murder, he’d never have that chance. So, Martin wrote Joffrey as being a more normal person. D&D ramped Joffrey up to 11 on a scale of 1 to 10 for entertainment purposes.  But I mention it because Olenna did decide to take out a teen age boy. 

  Book Cersei killed/ let die her friend. A teen-aged girl who had the audacity to have a crush on her brother.

We don’t know that yet. George likes to play with assumptions and then soundly thump people on the nose for assuming the worst. George has deliberately written that passage as inconclusive.  You may think we’re to jump to the conclusion that Cersei pushed Melara down the well.  But that fact has yet to be established. I think we’ll be told an interesting story as to how exactly Melara landed down at the bottom of that well.

Honestly, that is the root of my dislike for Cersei and I don't separate book and show cleanly.

My take on it is that George is playing a long game with Cersei.  He dumps on us in the opening books that she supposedly killed Jon Aryn and then is aligned with her brother’s callous pushing Bran out the window. He’s set her up as this villain and is begging for people to bite and hate Cersei.  And he has most fans real good. But peel away all the assumptions and misdirections, and what do you have?

Cersei was badgered by Jaime to go to the broken tower that day – she had begged him to go hunting instead. She gives in, the kid spies on them, and without consulting her, Jaime tosses the kid out the window.

Cersei had nothing to do with Jon Aryn’s murder. That was all courtesy of Lysa, Littlefinger, and – in the books – with an assist from Pycelle.

In the show, Cersei’s been cleared of killing Robert’s bastards outright. Instead, it’s pinned on Joffrey. In the book, curiously, Tyrion makes that assumption – and Varys confirms it. But we know that Varys is up to his own game, with his actions against Kevan. Again, that Cersei actually ordered those children’s deaths is not yet confirmed. Tyrion sent Jonas Slynt to the wall before he could say who gave him the order.

Granted, book Cersei goes off the deep end in AFFC, and commits atrocious acts due to her paranoia and the ease by which she can be manipulated.  But with both show Cersei and book Cersei a lot of people’s conclusions about her on based on incorrect assumptions.

Even if we're going by show Cersei only, she's more sympathetic, but not to the point where I can forgive her for being a miserable wretch to everyone around her.

I don’t “forgive” her. I do like to play devil’s advocate with those who pile on to her things that she didn’t do.  Because only then, once we all are on the same playing field as the facts, can we have a meaningful discussion about the character, etc. 

[BlackberryJam]

In the books, it's Cersei who sends young girls off to serve in bdsm brothels and gives women to Qyburn to torture. Not to mention how she has Qyburn torture others into saying they slept with Margaery. Then, of course, she forgets she's done it.

In the show, she sips wine while a dwarf head rolls across the table and takes a stroll through human entrails to go speak with Ser Gregor. And during this, she never bats an eye.

Cersei is one of the truly vile villains of the series. 

[HeySandyStrange]

In my mind, Cersei is nothing more then a Pyschopath, just like Joffery and Tywin were. She is highly manipulative, lacks empathy, is narcissistic, is completely selfish, sadistic, and any "love" she feels for others is based on her sense of control or possession of them. Of course, this is more obvious in the books rather then show were for a long time they've softened her. But she gets off on cruelty almost as much as Joffery did. Joffery was just slightly dumber and more sadistic, where as Tywin was smarter, less outwardly bloodthirsty but had just as little empathy for others. Pyschopathy seems to be a prevailing Lannister trait.

[Hecate7]

On 7/21/2017 at 2:32 PM, Francie said:

She’s never targeted a teen age boy, like Olenna did.  As you’ve gone there with the books, Joffrey – in the books – is a 13 or 14 year old kid, and Martin’s on record saying he wrote him as a typical teen age bully. A bully, George said, that might be the type to grow out of it when he’s older. That’s his description of Joffrey, not mine.  And George goes on to state that, because of his murder, he’d never have that chance. So, Martin wrote Joffrey as being a more normal person. D&D ramped Joffrey up to 11 on a scale of 1 to 10 for entertainment purposes.  But I mention it because Olenna did decide to take out a teen age boy.

Gendry was a teen-aged boy when Cersei targeted him. So I don't buy that. And I also don't buy that GRRM wrote a boy who was maybe going to grow out of it. What he did to Tommen, and what he did to animals, showed a sociopath who was very dangerous and was NEVER going to "grow out of it," because he was incapable of empathy in the books, too. Even if he were going to "grow out of" or get bored with terrorizing others, it wasn't going to happen soon enough for Margaery. Olenna wasn't "targeting" a teen, she was rescuing her granddaughter.

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Gendry was a teen-aged boy when Cersei targeted him. So I don't buy that. And I also don't buy that GRRM wrote a boy who was maybe going to grow out of it. What he did to Tommen, and what he did to animals, showed a sociopath who was very dangerous and was NEVER going to "grow out of it," because he was incapable of empathy in the books, too. Even if he were going to "grow out of" or get bored with terrorizing others, it wasn't going to happen soon enough for Margaery. Olenna wasn't "targeting" a teen, she was rescuing her granddaughter.

When did Cersei target Gendry? If this is about killing Robert's bastards, on the show, that was laid at Joffrey's doorstep, not Cersei's. In the book, that remains a big unknown. Tyrion assumes and Varys confirms it, but Varys is a big wild card.  I think D&D re-positioning that and putting in on Joffrey is a sign that even George plans to clear Cersei of that.  If I'm missing a plot point, and you meant something else, let me know. 

The rest I took to the unpopular thread. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Francie
Some points are better suited for a non-Cersei thread. I took them to the unpopular thread.

[Hecate7]

27 minutes ago, Francie said:

When did Cersei target Gendry? If this is about killing Robert's bastards, on the show, that was laid at Joffrey's doorstep, not Cersei's. In the book, that remains a big unknown. Tyrion assumes and Varys confirms it, but Varys is a big wild card.  I think D&D re-positioning that and putting in on Joffrey is a sign that even George plans to clear Cersei of that.  If I'm missing a plot point, and you meant something else, let me know. 

As to Joffrey and the animals, he doesn't kill the cat and hide it, like a budding serial killer would. He is the son of a man who likes to do three things:  1) Drink; 2) Fornicate; and 3) Kill animals. What does Joffrey do when he dissects the cat? Shows the kitten fetuses (which, ewwww, it's supposed to make us wretch to read that) to his father. He wants his father's attention and approval.  Like I've said, show Joffrey is more cardboard villain than the book Joffrey. As to the books, George has said he wrote Joffrey with a teen age bully in mind, and that this teen age bully would never get the chance to see if he would grow out of it once he hit adulthood, like other bullies of which George was aware. 

The idea that Olenna was rescuing her granddaughter rather than better positioning her for power is absurd to me.  Margaery's back wasn't against the wall.  She wasn't trapped.  Olenna was clever enough to have found an excuse or manipulated the situation to get Margaery out of that mess and into a different match.  Olenna had full knowledge of Joffrey's nature, and she let the marriage go forward.  That Olenna and Margaery proceeded, all in their quest for power and influence, strips them of any right to cloak themselves in self-righteousness or a false defense claim.  Olenna murdered the kid because he had an eligible younger brother who was easier to control. That's straight out murder. Murder for self-aggrandizement. 

George is making a whopping great assumption that just because those bullies stopped bullying HIM, they "grew out of it." They didn't. They just stopped bragging to him of their exploits. I'm sure they had terrified wives, exes, and siblings on into their twilight years. GRRM is simply being deliberately naive about this. There are bullies who do grow out of it, but they are much milder sorts--just throwing their weight around to be dominant or testing the limits of what they can get away with. The "unpleasantness with the cat" is an example of a deeply deranged mind.

Margaery would have been in an impossible situation had she broken her marriage contract with Geoffrey. See Robb Stark. There is no graceful way to break up with people like Geoffrey or Cersei. As Sansa shows, being Joffrey's ex could be just as deadly as being his wife, and Olenna wasn't about to abandon Margaery to either fate.

 

Cersei might not have given the order to kill all of Robert's bastards in the books, but she did on the show, and it's like her to do it. Remember who made a giant fuss about Bran until Jaime threw him out the window, and who demanded that Jaime kill or maim Arya? Cersei wasn't the slightest bit sentimental about teenagers.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Hecate7

[Francie]

12 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

George is making a whopping great assumption that just because those bullies stopped bullying HIM, they "grew out of it." They didn't. They just stopped bragging to him of their exploits. I'm sure they had terrified wives, exes, and siblings on into their twilight years. GRRM is simply being deliberately naive about this. There are bullies who do grow out of it, but they are much milder sorts--just throwing their weight around to be dominant or testing the limits of what they can get away with. The "unpleasantness with the cat" is an example of a deeply deranged mind.

Margaery would have been in an impossible situation had she broken her marriage contract with Geoffrey. See Robb Stark. There is no graceful way to break up with people like Geoffrey or Cersei. As Sansa shows, being Joffrey's ex could be just as deadly as being his wife, and Olenna wasn't about to abandon Margaery to either fate.

Since your post has absolutely nothing to do with Cersei, I will not respond here. 

[Francie]

 I don't know, killing a friend at 13 ...

This didn't even get hinted at in the show. In the books, George has intentionally not closed the loop on this. He's begging the reader to make that assumption. But I'm quite certain that's all because he's going to enjoy ripping that rug out under you.  In any event, it's not conclusively established, and it's nothing more than an assumption you're making. So, your point lacks foundation to call it a truth. 

or tweaking your baby bro's penis for shits and giggles, isn't a firm foundation for future sanity.

We weren't inside the head of 4-year-old (on the show) or 7-9-year-old (in the books) Cersei. What we do know that is that she is a child who just lost her mother, her father blames this deformed baby that he's hidden away, and Cersei's already being told by septas about what power male brothers, like Baelor the Blessed, get to do to their sisters (lock them away in towers). So, yes, Cersei is taking out her frustration in an unhealthy way. But not entirely an unnatural way for how a child's brain works.  

She's learning a hard lesson about what patriarchy means right about then, and my gut feeling is that if George ever released those next books, we'll see Cersei re-live that event through her eyes and we'll see some childish explanation like that all she had to do was remove that appendage, and this little brother would no longer leap frog over her and have more power than she. But certainly it can't be said with any certainty that she did it for "shits and giggles." 

[Francie]

Quote

 Cersei might not have given the order to kill all of Robert's bastards in the books, but she did on the show, and it's like her to do it. Remember who made a giant fuss about Bran until Jaime threw him out the window, and who demanded that Jaime kill or maim Arya? Cersei wasn't the slightest bit sentimental about teenagers.

None of that happened. In each event you've described you have filled in blanks to make Cersei as villainous as possible. 

To blame Bran on her is incredulous.  She reacted with panic and said "He saw us!" twice.  That was nothing but panic. Jaime coolly and deliberately made that decision without any prompting to do so from Cersei.  And I say that as Jaime's biggest fan and defender.  The show and the books have bent over backwards to have Cersei react with a "what the hell did you do?" attitude to Jaime. 

You're also filling in blanks from a scene where Jaime is reinterpreting what his sister saying "I want ... I want ..." over and over again. When in the moment, he thinks she means "I want you." Then, when he's angry with her, and the wool has been pulled from his eyes about her capabilities, he re-interprets her saying that to mean she wanted Arya killed or maimed. But we really won't know what she meant unless and until we're inside Cersei's head. 

And on the show, they cleared Cersei even more blatantly of killing Robert's bastards.  She doesn't deny it to Tyrion, and that's how he realizes that she's covering for Joffrey.  

I get that George has laid these crumbs, and I imagine him doing it with an evil cackle, that's leading the reader to believe that Cersei is just the worst person who ever existed. But that's what he likes to do. He likes to create these impressions and then rip the rug from out under you. Jaime got that treatment in Book 3. He not so much underwent an redemption arc as the audience was taught more about him. Though, there is something to be said about what Brienne brings out in him.  By Book 4, Cersei has become a paranoid monster.  But the story I see unfold is how a girl with dreams of nothing more than being married to the prince turns into someone so consumed by self-security and not having any man being a position to control her or tell her what to do that she makes horrible decisions in an attempt to achieve and preserve that security. Like I've said before, it's taken a village to create that monster. 

And that's one of the reasons I really, truly hope George does finish those books. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Francie
evil and even are not the same word

[Bryce Lynch]

On 7/24/2016 at 8:35 AM, Hecate7 said:

Doubt that's how Dothraki society works, considering how uniformly misogynistic and violent all the men seem to be. It's a rape culture, it's a nomadic warlike culture, and very patriarchal, and so I think any influence Danaerys could have would be completely undermined from the very start.

Drogo being "in love" doesn't make that much difference, honestly. Romantic love is not a formative influence on personality.

Normally, a woman might not be able to influence Drogo or Dothraki society, but Danerys is a changer of people and cultures.   She freed slaves and turned skeptics, cynics, traitors and sellswords into true believers.  Watching the show, I don't think there is supposed to be any doubt the Drogo fell in love with Danerys and she clearly influenced him.  She hadn't totally civilized him, but the fact she convinced him to go against his blood riders spare  Mirri Maz Duur from further rape and to let her take several of the women for herself showed she was having great influence on him.   

I don't think it has anything to do with Cersei Lannister and her behavior though.   They were in very different situations.  Robert was in love with and obsessed with a dead woman, and was never going to love Cersei.  That doesn't excuse Cersei's numerous acts of evil, though.

When I first watched, I saw Cersei as a rather uncomplicated, always evil for evil's sake, mad dog type character, much like Joffrey.  As I have rewatched, and thought more about her, I still see her as evil (and want her dead), but I see a lot more complexity and can understand how she got to be who she is, though I cannot excuse it.  

*She was raised by a unscrupulous tyrant of a father, which is how she learned to be dishonest, brutal and treacherous.

* Her mother died giving birth to the "monster", "imp".  Tywin, an intelligent grown man irrationally hated Tyrion for this, so it is totally understandable that a grieving girl would share her father's hatred.

* Her close brother/sister relationship with her twin, morphed into a perverted, incestuous relationship.  While this is still disgusting and immoral, it is somewhat more understandable as the result of children engaging in taboo behavior as opposed to adults choosing to have sex with their siblings. 

* She was married to Robert Baratheon, who she worshiped, and was heartbroken when he turned out to be a drunken,  whore chaser who was in love with a dead woman and would never love her. 

None of this excuses her evil behavior, but it makes her seem more like a real person than a personification of evil like the Night King.

Also, she did try to spare Ned and send him to the wall and was a shocked as everyone else when Joffrey ordered him beheaded.  It was probably mainly for political reasons, but it at least show she is capable of strategic diplomatic thinking as opposed to just blind rage.

She was a loving mother...and had good cheekbones. :)

She did seem to try to give Sansa what, from her perspective, good motherly advice on how to live in a loveless marriage with a King who hates you. 

Her Faith Militant scheme backfired horribly but again it wasn't out of blind rage, but a seemingly shrewd plot to prevent the Tyrells from taking away all her influence by taking control of Tommen.  

Blowing up the Sept of Baelor, with hundred of people inside, was abominable.  But, her rage at the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant was understandable after the walk of atonement, the High Sparrow did need to be stopped and she probably knew it was her only chance, as she would have been convicted at the trial and likely put to death.   I don't think she was slaughtering people for the sake of slaughtering them, but they were collateral damage to her, in doing what she needed to do to destroy her enemies and save her own life.  

I used to see her as on a whole other level as crazy and evil than all the other characters, but now I put her more or less on par with Tywin, or even Stannis, in his worst moments.  

[Deanie87]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Normally, a woman might not be able to influence Drogo or Dothraki society, but Danerys is a changer of people and cultures.   She freed slaves and turned skeptics, cynics, traitors and sellswords into true believers.  Watching the show, I don't think there is supposed to be any doubt the Drogo fell in love with Danerys and she clearly influenced him.  She hadn't totally civilized him, but the fact she convinced him to go against his blood riders spare  Mirri Maz Duur from further rape and to let her take several of the women for herself showed she was having great influence on him.   

I don't think it has anything to do with Cersei Lannister and her behavior though.   They were in very different situations.  Robert was in love with and obsessed with a dead woman, and was never going to love Cersei.  That doesn't excuse Cersei's numerous acts of evil, though.

When I first watched, I saw Cersei as a rather uncomplicated, always evil for evil's sake, mad dog type character, much like Joffrey.  As I have rewatched, and thought more about her, I still see her as evil (and want her dead), but I see a lot more complexity and can understand how she got to be who she is, though I cannot excuse it.  

*She was raised by a unscrupulous tyrant of a father, which is how she learned to be dishonest, brutal and treacherous.

* Her mother died giving birth to the "monster", "imp".  Tywin, an intelligent grown man irrationally hated Tyrion for this, so it is totally understandable that a grieving girl would share her father's hatred.

* Her close brother/sister relationship with her twin, morphed into a perverted, incestuous relationship.  While this is still disgusting and immoral, it is somewhat more understandable as the result of children engaging in taboo behavior as opposed to adults choosing to have sex with their siblings. 

* She was married to Robert Baratheon, who she worshiped, and was heartbroken when he turned out to be a drunken,  whore chaser who was in love with a dead woman and would never love her. 

None of this excuses her evil behavior, but it makes her seem more like a real person than a personification of evil like the Night King.

Also, she did try to spare Ned and send him to the wall and was a shocked as everyone else when Joffrey ordered him beheaded.  It was probably mainly for political reasons, but it at least show she is capable of strategic diplomatic thinking as opposed to just blind rage.

She was a loving mother...and had good cheekbones. :)

She did seem to try to give Sansa what, from her perspective, good motherly advice on how to live in a loveless marriage with a King who hates you. 

Her Faith Militant scheme backfired horribly but again it wasn't out of blind rage, but a seemingly shrewd plot to prevent the Tyrells from taking away all her influence by taking control of Tommen.  

Blowing up the Sept of Baelor, with hundred of people inside, was abominable.  But, her rage at the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant was understandable after the walk of atonement, the High Sparrow did need to be stopped and she probably knew it was her only chance, as she would have been convicted at the trial and likely put to death.   I don't think she was slaughtering people for the sake of slaughtering them, but they were collateral damage to her, in doing what she needed to do to destroy her enemies and save her own life.  

I used to see her as on a whole other level as crazy and evil than all the other characters, but now I put her more or less on par with Tywin, or even Stannis, in his worst moments.  

I agree with this.  I don't find Cersei to be a one note sadist like Ramsay, for example.  She's not a good politician, a particularly savvy tactician or an inspiring leader.  But she can still wring some sympathy from me every once and awhile and I find her endlessly fascinating and watchable, and most of the credit for that goes to Lena Heady.   She brings something to every scene she is in and, IMO, makes every scene partner more interesting.

It wasn't until last season that I finally cared about Jon Snow, and Dany still bores me more often than not, but Cersei has never been anything less than completely entertaining.   Part of my problem with the latter seasons of GoT, is that so many of the good villains/morally gray characters got killed off and we were left with so many boring do-gooders.  So I"m glad that Cersei has stuck around this long because she is something other than the good but bland characters (Dany, Jorah), the lovable killers with the great dialogue (the Hound, Bronn) and the various Stark offspring, who try my patience greatly.  Give me Cersei narrowing her eyes and sipping wine slowly over Dany's long titled/long winded repetitive speeches any day.   Dany is the better ruler (and person), no doubt, I just hope that she and Jon Snow will be worthy adversaries.  Even with dragons and the apparently blessing of immortality laid upon Jon by the Lord of Light, I'm not going to count Cersei out completely.  

[RedheadZombie]

I loved the scene in the finale between Cersei and Tyrion.  In fact, I think it was far more poignant and gut-wrenching than that between Cersei and Jaime, which I find incredibly interesting.  Cersei simply could not kill Tyrion.  Why?  She killed her uncle Kevan and cousin Lancel without a second thought.  Sure, Lancel had betrayed her, but Kevan hadn't.  So not killing Tyrion had nothing to do with his being a Lannister.  It was a very emotional scene, and Cersei even cried.  Yet when Jaime walked out on her, she was simply enraged, not crying.  So very interesting when she's carrying his child.

Any guesses why Cersei let Tyrion live?  I'm sure it was partly due to Jaime's revelation that Olenna killed Joffrey.  But it was surely more than that, because she hated him and wanted him dead while Joffrey was alive.  One of my guesses on the power of the scene is due to Lena and Peter being excellent scene partners, and they were giving it their all after not working together since season three.   I am not among those who think Cersei and Tyrion are now co-conspirators, because Cersei has always been known for shooting herself in the foot, and putting her petty vengeance before sensible decisions.  Plus I don't think Tyrion would suddenly trust Cersei and switch sides.

[GraceK]

I think Cersei let him live for pragmatic reasons. She has 2 dragons and 2 armies literally ready to attack her at any offensive assault. Dany would absolutely set fire to the place if Tyrion was killed. I have absolutely no belief whatsoever that Cersei secretly has love for Tyrion deep down. She's incapable of it and she would see him dead in a second if she truly had the power to do so with no immediate repercussions to herself. Plus, seeing her immediate backstabbing it was clear she also needed to have them all believe she was willing to join their alliance, and killing Tyrion at that moment would not have let her underhanded villainy succeed. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by GraceK

[Spartan Girl]

Love how Cersei blamed Tyrion for Tommen's death, conveniently forgetting that it was her blowing his wife up that basically drove him to suicide. She really is incapable of owning up to anything.

[Lady S.]

It is true that Tommen would probably be fine if Tywin hadn't been murdered because Cersei would never have been able to arm the Faith or ruin the Tyrell alliance. It's a complete denial of Cersei's own responsibility for her actions, but it is typical Cersei logic.

[TarotQueen]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:12 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Any guesses why Cersei let Tyrion live?

I think its because deep down, she knows he's right about what he said about him checking Dany and him never having wanted thier families downfall just for its own sake.  

Basically she knows somewhere deep down how full of shit she is, and that Tyrion might end up being her only chance out with her life if Dany wins.

[FemmyV]

On the topic of Cersei's origins as a character. Most people agree the following women were influential: Margaret of Anjou ("the Anjou bitch"), Elizabeth Woodville (had her family stacked in positions of Edward IV's reign, fought the chosen 'Lord Protector' ie regent, tooth and nail); Catherine de Medici (using sons to control gov't). Today I was doing some Wiki'ing and came across the historical nugget of how Marie de Medici rose to power in France: she'd been married to Henry IV (unhappily) for years, and by an amazing coincidence, he was attacked on route to her coronation ceremony (carriage was stopped due to congestion) and died the day after. Granted, there had been a number of attempts on him over the years. But jebus. Does it get more obvious? Also, like Cersei, while she did a great job of seizing power at the right time, she made terrible mistakes trying to hang onto it. This was written about her by de Balzac:

"she never purged herself of the charge of having known of the king's assassination; her intimate was d'Épernon, who did not ward off Ravaillac's blow, and who was proved to have known the murderer personally for a long time. Marie's conduct was such that she forced her son to banish her from France, where she was encouraging her other son, Gaston."

[Neko]

On 8/31/2017 at 4:10 PM, TarotQueen said:

I think its because deep down, she knows he's right about what he said about him checking Dany and him never having wanted thier families downfall just for its own sake.  

Basically she knows somewhere deep down how full of shit she is, and that Tyrion might end up being her only chance out with her life if Dany wins.

Bolded, because I don't think Cersei would scurry away with her life, even if she had the chance.  She didn't flee when Ned confronted her about having Jaime's kids when Robert died, and she was willing to kill herself and Tommen when it looked like Stannis's army would take King's Landing.  Cersei is the type who would rather die a queen than live and watch someone else take the throne.  Bad shit is about to go down, lol.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Sweet Summer Child

[anamika]

Cersei recap season 1-7

[proserpina65]

I was watching the meeting at the Dragon Pit in The Dragon and The Wolf on Tuesday, and realized that one good, controlled burst of dragon fire would've taken care of the annoying Cersei plot for good.  Of course, it would've taken out Jaime too, but I could've lived with that.  Cersei has just become so tiresome.

[AD35]

On 12/29/2017 at 12:30 AM, Shakma said:

Cersei is the type who would rather die a queen than live and watch someone else take the throne.  Bad shit is about to go down, lol. 

Being in her position it's easy to see why she's so smug at this point in the current season.  She has a bodyguard that could rip anyone limb from limb that threatens her. Her army is rested, well-equipped and at home without incurring any casulties from fighting an army of the dead.  A fleet commanded by an ally has just killed one of the last two dragons belonging to her enemy.  And supplementing that is an intelligence network that apparently could put the KGB to shame.  She might as well have had a banner hung outside along the city walls with a message directed at Jon and Dany that read "You wanna piece of me? Then come at me bitches!!!"

Since she isn't the type to slink off to a retirement community for deposed ex-queens, it ought to be pretty enjoyable and fun watching her going down fighting to the end and losing everything.

[slf]

Apropos of nothing, really:

- Cersei doesn't take up with Jaime until after Robert rapes her. She had wanted to marry Rhaegar and then Robert. However, Jaime never wanted anyone but her. She's why he joined the Kingsguard. Yet so many blame the incest solely on her as if Jaime wasn't just as involved and always the one more invested in the incest.

- So much of the writing for Cersei is misogynistic because D&D kept from the books every bad thing she ever did, added in more bad things, took away or minimized a few complicated/sympathetic aspects, all the while doing the opposite for her brothers (Tyrion thinking to himself that when he returns to Westeros, part of his revenge on Cersei will be rape not making the cut, for example). She's still completely awful in the books but much better written.

- I think socialization is pretty much the single greatest influence there is. We still make our own choices absolutely. But being raised by a sadist will have consequences and Tywin was as sadistic as it came. He had people brutally murdered and their corpses put on display where his children could see them and smell them, for months. He, contrary to what some are claiming, was a rank misogynist who was particularly fond of inflicting gendered violence on women (making his father's mistress walk naked through the streets as Cersei herself was eventually forced to do, the brutality Elia suffered and really all the violence against women that Gregor Clegane committed, etc.). I do think Cersei was a victim of child abuse just in a different way than Tyrion. Even Jaime was despite indisputedly having it the easiest of the three Lannister children.

I'm still pissed she murdered Margaery and got away with just a building falling on her. Ugh.

Edited May 15, 2019 by slf

[Spartan Girl]

All these years of giving their bad guys some of the greatest comeuppance ever, but when it comes to Cersei the show completely wussed out!

They could have had Jaime kill her. They could have had Arya kill her wearing Jaime's face. She could have been blown up by her own wildfire. Tyrion could have killed her with the crossbow (WHY he kept wanting to save her after everything she did to him, I'll NEVER understand). Euron could have killed her when he found out the baby wasn't his, or Ellaria could have busted out of the dungeon to kill her. Drogon and Dany could have incinerated her instead of Dany going nuts and killing innocent people.

ALL of these would have been more satisfying than reducing her to a crying, passive victim who dies Romeo-and-Juliet-style with Jaime.

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Thanks for nothing, Dumb and Dumber!

Edited May 15, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[BooBear]

Personally I always loved TV Cersei. I never saw her as evil as much as a product of her environment and a life time of having terrible disappointments. That being said, she was the villain of this show and deserved that someone fitting would have ended her life. But the show didn't seem to want that and that puzzles me. I mean I like Cersei but I still think she had death coming to her worthy of her crimes.  She should not have gotten to die in the arms of the person she loved. I know some people might say this is how real life is but the real life story for Cersei was more realistically that she would have died alone, badly.  

[Constantinople]

The Middle Ages had a number of legends about kings, real or imaginary, who went away or were sleeping, but who would return to protect their people in time of need.
Cersei's body will likely never be found.
Now that Daenerys went full Targaryen, I wonder if similar legends will start about Good Queen Cersei

[Dame sans merci]

19 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Middle Ages had a number of legends about kings, real or imaginary, who went away or were sleeping, but who would return to protect their people in time of need.
Cersei's body will likely never be found.
Now that Daenerys went full Targaryen, I wonder if similar legends will start about Good Queen Cersei

Somebody pointed out on another thread that Lena needs another episode to meet certain awards criteria, so i'm guessing we will inexplicably see her body somehow pulled out from under the gazillion bricks that used to be the Red Keep.