Cersei Lannister: Not As Smart As She Thinks She Is

[Hecate7]

I wonder if it would be possible for Jaime to marry Cersei and acknowlege Myrcella.

 

Obviously acknowledging Tommen would be a bad idea, given that he's sitting on the throne based on his Baratheon last name.

[Maximum Taco]

I wonder if it would be possible for Jaime to marry Cersei and acknowlege Myrcella.

 

Obviously acknowledging Tommen would be a bad idea, given that he's sitting on the throne based on his Baratheon last name.

 

I don't think you can do it retroactively. She'd still be a bastard for being born out of wedlock. Although Tommen, as king, could legitimize Myrcella as a trueborn daughter of Jaime and Cersei.

 

However it would be foolish to acknowledge Myrcella, it would cast doubt upon Tommen's already doubtful lineage. One bastard apple spoils the whole bunch as it were.

 

I mean what's Cersei gonna say "Oh the middle child was Jaime's, but the other two are totally Roberts..."? Like that would fly in Westerosi culture.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

Ramsey Snow was changed retroactively to Roose Bolton's legitimate son. Fathers can acknowledge and legitimize their bastards, without even having to marry the mothers. Mothers of course can't do this. Usually fathers of bastards don't want to do this, because they already have legitimate heirs. The only other person who can do it is the King, and he can do it right over the father's head if he wants to.

 

Since Myrcella was born in wedlock between Robert Baratheon and Cersei, she is not legally a bastard, because no one knows of her true parentage. And you're right about acknowldging her as Jaime's being a very bad idea from Tommen's perspective.

[Maximum Taco]

There's one exception to this in the books-the Mormont family in Westeros is known for the fact that Mormon's sister, and her daughters all reproduced without any husband in the picture-thus ensuring the kids kept the Mormont name.  Their official explanation was that they were skin-changers and that the children were fathered by bears.  (Or in other words none of your business.)  Their fellow Northerners accepted this-but that seems like a Northern thing.  I doubt it would work in the Westernlands. You might want to look up the story of the Blue Bard for some context there.

 

BTW neither the Blue Bard nor the Mormonts are spoilers for anything so relax.

 

The Mormonts are never really discussed in great detail. I don't think they actually use the skin changer excuse, it's more of a slur directed towards the Mormonts, like calling the crannogmen bog-devils. They just made it their own after people started up the japes. "Yeah, we bed down with bears, so you better watch yourself!"

 

Sure it could be a "none of your business" type thing, or it could be as simple as Maege married a commoner, or a landed knight, or a noble bastard, easily a possibility for the daughter of a reclusive minor house. She probably never expected to inherit after Jorah was born. If Maege did marry a man of a lower station, he may have taken her name, as the Mormont name would've carried more prestige then his own (if he had one), this would be simlar to how Bronn takes the name Stokeworth, since he has no last name when he marries Lollys. If Maege married a bastard she would not want her daughters to be "Snows," that would imply that they are bastards, so they would've taken the name Mormont.

Edited June 29, 2014 by SilverStormm

[Lady S.]

Ramsey Snow was changed retroactively to Roose Bolton's legitimate son. Fathers can acknowledge and legitimize their bastards, without even having to marry the mothers. Mothers of course can't do this. Usually fathers of bastards don't want to do this, because they already have legitimate heirs. The only other person who can do it is the King, and he can do it right over the father's head if he wants to.

 

Since Myrcella was born in wedlock between Robert Baratheon and Cersei, she is not legally a bastard, because no one knows of her true parentage. And you're right about acknowldging her as Jaime's being a very bad idea from Tommen's perspective.

Nah, fathers can acknowledge bastards and that's the only way they get the name Snow or whatever, but only the King can legitimatize a noble bastard. Tommen's seal would be on the paper Ramsay got from Roose. Stannis

mentions his sole legitimizing power several times when offering to do so for Jon Snow. And when Robb wanted to legitimize Jon as a last resort after Sansa was married as his heir, he pointed out that he now had the power to do so because he was the King, not just the Lord of Winterfell.  

Why on earth would even Cersei want to acknowledge Myrcella's paternity now and have her also-bastard son legitimize his sister? Myrcella has a claim to Casterly Rock already as Robert and Cersei's daughter, it's not like Cersei is suddenly going to start caring about legality with Myrcella when Tommen's still on the throne. And keep in mind people only tolerated the Targs' close incest because they were magical Valyrian dragonriders, otherwise it's against every Westeros religion, so I doubt acknowledging and legitimizing twincest spawn would really be as simple as doing so for Ramsay Snow. There's no reason to think Loras wasn't actually right that Jaime, as a non-Targ, could never marry Cersei. And as long as he's in the Kingsguard, Jaime can't have any legitimate children, incestuous or otherwise, even if he remained unmarried.

 

I thought the idea was that the twincest is out in the open with Tywin so Cersei no longer cares about people gossiping, but they're not fully out and proud from the incest closet. Cersei was threatening Tywin with a full reveal to get him to call off her wedding and let her stay with her son, the king. Now the wedding's definitely off and Tommen is hers again, so there's no reason to come clean now and threaten everything in King's Landing. She and Jaime can just try going back to what they had when Robert was king.

 

Tommen as King can keep the Title of Lord of Casterly Rock and put a royal minister in charge for running things if similar to English system (and probably others) and hand the title out later if he wishes.

Yep, Robert could have done the same for Storm's End instead of giving to Renly. And as Stannis is a traitor who has now left his own holdings behind, Storm's End and Dragonstone would be claimed by Tommen too. If Tommen actually survives long enough to consummate things with Marg, he could grant Casterly Rock or Storm's End to their younger children, with the eldest son getting Dragonstone and later the throne.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Lady S.

[Ripley68]

I get the feeling that Cersei would have been a much different person if she had married

Rhaenys.  She compares many men to him, and I think she could possibly have had real feelings and even had his children.

Edited July 7, 2014 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tagged book info.

[Lady S.]

Rhaegar? That'd still a question of him ever loving her since

Cersei was a genuinely awful human being from childhood, long before she married Robert. I think Jaime and maybe Lancel were the only men who could love her the way she wanted, as opposed to just wanting to fuck her. Maybe she wouldn't refuse to have the children of a husband who didn't abuse and intentionally humiliate her, but I think it's a possibility she would have still grown disappointed and turned to Jaime when he was right there in the Kingsguard, just without intentionally having Jaime's bastards.

Edited July 7, 2014 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tagged book info.

[Avaleigh]

Kevan too seems to think that things might have worked out for the better had Rhaegar married Cersei instead of Elia to the point where he questions if Rhaegar would have even looked twice at Lyanna had Cersei been in the picture. I think Rhaegar had a better chance in bringing out the best in Cersei whereas Robert was the type of person who brought out the worst.

I don't feel that Jaime was a genuinely awful human being and he was able to see the good in Cersei. It's something that's often glossed over in discussions of her character but Cersei actually makes an effort in the books to present a courteous front. She's a phony bitch in public a lot of the time and this is most apparent in Tyrion, Sansa, and Jaime chapters. Tyrion and Jaime both notice when she's trying to be charming with this lord or that, Sansa notes that she feels safer around Joffrey if the queen is present, Tyrion wonders if this is the way she is with Jaime the night he poisons her and they're both in a good mood after hearing about Renly vs. Stannis. I mention all this because I think Cersei could have won Rhaegar over if she'd made the effort, and she seemed inclined to do so.

I know it's debatable but I think Jaime comes across as a man who is mostly good-ish. I find it hard to believe that Cersei was non-stop horrible about everything and everyone when they were together. Even in the last episode Jaime tells her that he didn't fight to come back and return to her only to find that she's become this [hateful woman]. He didn't say that last part but the implication is that he thinks that she's changed. He even said this in the first episode of this season. Jaime feels that Cersei has changed when it's fairly obvious that Jaime is the one who's gone through the most change. Cersei *has* changed since they were separated but I'm not sure that she's changed in the way Jaime is implying. Her attitude towards Tyrion for one. That isn't anything new. She referred to him as a little beast in the pilot and Jaime didn't even blink. When Brienne insulted Cersei though Jaime immediately insisted that she be courteous as far as Cersei is concerned.

Cersei showed a willingness in both the show and the books to want to play nice at the start of the marriage. If Rhaegar had been good to her as he was at first with Elia I'm certain the bastard issue likely wouldn't have come up. I'm uncertain as to whether or not she would have cut things off with Jaime though since she seems like she'd want to have her cake and eat it too. I definitely don't think that the affair with Jaime would have been as intense nor do I think either would have been interested in taking some of the risks they took as they did when Robert was her husband. Jaime at least seemed to respect Rhaegar and I don't think he ever respected Robert.

In fact, under the right circumstances, I could maybe even see Rhaegar being understanding/tolerant of Cersei and Jaime having a discreet relationship at some point provided Cersei and Rhaegar already had their own children.

[Hecate7]

Cersei would have eventually hated anyone she married, for not being Jaime.

In the books she thinks to herself, "It's only ever been good with Jaime."

She was already vicious to Tyrion, but Jaime might have attributed that to Tywin or to jealousy that he paid attention to Tyrion at all. I doubt he realized the extent of Cersei's cruelty and selfishness, because Cersei is a special kind of beautiful, with her warm smile and radiant skin--you just don't think a person who looks like that can possibly be evil. Especially if she looks exactly like you, and you're not evil.

[lawless]

Rhaegar? He definitely met her snobbery quota as everyone seemed to adore him for his otherworldly beauty and Targaryens so infrequently married outside the family, Cersei would undoubtedly perceive marriage to him as her rightful due -- who could do better? No one. But he likely would not have been able to fulfill her need to be adored, as most people, and I assume Rhaegar, would have been off by her vanity and callousness toward others, even if she tamped down her crueler instincts.

I think Cersei is incredibly vain and an incredible snob, and their father raised them to think that Lannisters were superior to pretty much everyone.  Cersei was forced into marrying Robert; however, young Robert was apparently good looking and a champion warrior who had just won the kingdom.  That probably satisfied Cersei's snobbery, but the fact that he was still in love with and grieving Lyanna offended her vanity, and that was probably it for that relationship.  Could any other prospective husband have satisfied her standards of snobbery and also provided her with the adoration she felt she was due and which she got from her handsome Lannister twin?  If so, then I would say the marriage had a chance, and Cersei might have put Jaime on the back burner if not ended things with him.  But that's such a tall order, and King Robert didn't fit the bill.  Would  Okaaayy.  Having major trouble with the spoiler tags, they always move to the front of the post even if they don't belong there, but please insert the spoiler above here.

Edited July 8, 2014 by lawless

[Lady S.]

Cersei certainly increased in bitterness  and spitefulness over the years, but her general lack of empathy and fucked up Tywin-based philosophy weren't caused by Robert. As anybody's Queen, it wouldn't be long before she'd order a handmaiden flogged for a minor offense or had another peasant killed for pocketing a mutton chop or some shit. She's not a very lovable person, so it's no surprise the only two guys who knew her and were still into her were her own family. Jaime may not have known the extent of Cersei's cold-bloodedness, or chosen not to realize it and idealize her instead, but he knew she could be very cruel and spiteful (think after the Nymeria incident

when she begged Jaime to hunt down Arya for her, and it was only luck that someone else found her first

) and it didn't faze him so much because they all grew up with Tywin as role model. I doubt she would have raised her eldest son to be a decent person even if he wasn't 100% Lannister, she'd have spewed the same we're better than everyone else, do whatever you want type bullshit. And if another husband had a problem with her shit, I doubt she'd be motivated to become a better person. Even if she made an effort in the early days of the marriage, she couldn't keep the act up 24/7 if her husband cared to get to know her. A big help in hiding things from Robert was his perpetual drunkenness. I've seen people posit about a Cersei/Ned AU, based on their s1 scenes, but seven hells I don't see how that would ever work, if Ned bought home a bastard to Cersei, she'd drop the baby down a well.

 

Of course Tywin and Cersei herself thinks she's the best choice for any powerful man, they're Lannisters and think Lannisters are always the best, so I'm not sure what they're opinions are really worth. They can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want Cersei as a wife, when there are plenty of obvious reasons. Her looks, her family name, and their gold are really all she has going for her. There are richer families, others with proud names, and plenty of other beautiful women, probably all of them less ugly on the inside than Cersei.

 

Cersei can keep a false pretense of civility in public when it suits her, but how long would she really keep it up with a husband in private? I don't see her as the type to work that hard to win someone over for the long-term, more that she'd expect someone to come to love her pretty easily as a golden Lannister goddess, and because she was used to that kind of love from Jaime. And I wouldn't say she had real feelings for anyone else when she didn't know even them, her attraction to Robert was based on him being a hot war hero who would make her Queen, and I don't see any difference with her

thoughts on Rhaegar

, her feelings were as superficial as s1 Sansa's for Joffrey. Robert shot down any fantasies pretty fast and maybe her idea of making an effort with him was giving him some time to recognize her as way better than that stupid dead Stark girl. She seems to held their wedding night against him from the start, but as bad as that was for her, it was understandable and pitiful for Robert. It sounds like Jon Arryn arranged this match as soon as possible after Robert was king, as in when Lyanna had just died after Robert spent the whole war believing winning it would get her back. I'm sure Cersei's idea of getting him to love her didn't include being sensitive about the dead girl she was jealous of, understanding his grief would have required caring enough about another person's feelings and realizing not everything was about her, two things she has never shown herself capable of.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[sev]

She seems to held their wedding night against him from the start, but as bad as that was for her, it was understandable and pitiful for Robert. It sounds like Jon Arryn arranged this match as soon as possible after Robert was king, as in when Lyanna had just died after Robert spent the whole war believing winning it would get her back. I'm sure Cersei's idea of getting him to love her didn't include being sensitive about the dead girl she was jealous of, understanding his grief would have required caring enough about another person's feelings and realizing not everything was about her, two things she has never shown herself capable of.

Still, Robert didn't seem to have tried very hard, or at all, to make up for it.

It kind of parallels with Dany. Drogo is hurting her, until she makes an effort to be more "loveable". While on one side it is an example of a woman turning a bad situation in her favour, on the other it makes it look like it is Cersei's fault if her husband is aggressive because she didn't try hard enough to please him.

Nevertheless, Cersei is a nasty piece of work. That's always an issue in determining what in her situations is deserved and what not. Especially, when I feel she's more criticized for her sexual rebellion rather than for her real crimes.

(WoS)

Edited July 11, 2014 by sev

[lawless]

Still, Robert didn't seem to have tried very hard, or at all, to make up for it.

He did not, that's true.  I suspect that I his mind he was remaining true of heart of Lyanna all his life by not allowing himself to love anyone else. I think he was already prone to carousing and whoring, but it also served his purposes if he was avoiding finding love with someone else.

 

Nevertheless, Cersei is a nasty piece of work.

This is the thing though.  With time, Robert might have gotten through his grief enough to consider the person he was married to and try to make some sort of go at it.  But to get to know Cersei is to despise her.  She's vain, arrogant, spectacularly self-involved in her thoughts, and more than callous toward others -- she's outright vindictive and vengeful.  Having servants beaten, doing nothing while Joffrey had Sansa brutalized by the Kings Guard for Joffrey's amusement, planning to have Ilyn Payne behead Sansa if the Lannisters lost the battle for Blackwater, her delight in Joffrey's puppet show, her immediate hatred of Margaery, . . . the list goes on.

 

Just so I don't give the wrong impression, I know it's not ok to hit people in anger, and it's not ok for men to strike their wives.  But in Robert's defense, when he struck Cersei on the Show, she was actively trying to escalate a conflict with Ned Stark that was heading toward an all out war between the two families.  Many members of Ned's household in King's Landing had just been killed, and he had just been severely injured by Jaime, as a result of that brewing conflict.  Robert was doing what he could to stop the situation from escalating further, but Cersei kept trying to make the situation worse.  While it generally it's not acceptable to hit a person, particularly a more vulnerable person, in anger or to control them -- I would say it's maybe a little different when the person in question is doing things that are very likely to get other people hurt or killed, and that's what Cersei was up to.  Because she was complicit in awful things and was trying to hide it, and because to her, other people are "so small she can't even see them."  She's really awful.  I don't care nearly so much about who or how many people she sleeps with, it's about how she treats them, and others. The answer is, not well, not well at all.

[Constantinople]

Nevertheless, Cersei is a nasty piece of work. That's always an issue in determining what in her situations is deserved and what not. Especially, when I feel she's more criticized for her sexual rebellion rather than for her real crimes.

 

Given that her sexual rebellion led to three bastard children and a succession crisis that's cost an untold number of lives, I believe Cersei's sexual rebellion can't be separated from her real crimes.

[sev]

Given that her sexual rebellion led to three bastard children and a succession crisis that's cost an untold number of lives, I believe Cersei's sexual rebellion can't be separated from her real crimes.

If Ned Stark had imagined a succession rebellion he might have proceeded more carefully himself. He couldn't foresee it either.

The fault of the war rests on the other "Kings" for wanting to usurp the throne, except maybe Stannis who is the rightful heir - they were just jealous that Cersei got there first, and without the need of armies and war. (Btw Robert, too, usurped the previous King)

And really, it wasn't such a stupid plan: the kids look like the mother, it's just really unlucky that none of Bob's escapades had hair genes stronger that his.

Edited July 11, 2014 by sev

[Hecate7]

I think we're meant to believe that nobody in the world has hair genes stronger than a Baratheon male.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

If Ned Stark had imagined a succession rebellion he might have proceeded more carefully himself. He couldn't foresee it either.

The fault of the war rests on the other "Kings" for wanting to usurp the throne, except maybe Stannis who is the rightful heir - they were just jealous that Cersei got there first, and without the need of armies and war. (Btw Robert, too, usurped the previous King)

And really, it wasn't such a stupid plan: the kids look like the mother, it's just really unlucky that none of Bob's escapades had hair genes stronger that his.

 

I disagree that a succession crisis isn't forseeable.  The entire social structure of the elite is predicated on the idea that only legitimate children inherit and bastards get jack squat.  Why else bother differentiating between them?

 

Cersei knows this better than any.  Else why the continued public insistance that her children are Baratheons?  Why threaten Tywin with publicly revealing the truth if she's forced to marry Loras?  Cersi also knows that, in paritcular, Stannis wouldn't just react with a shrug should her children's legitimacy be questioned.

 

GoT was inspired in part, by the Wars of the Roses, a decades long civil war over who was the rightful King of England.  That in turn could be seen as an offshoot of the Hundred Years War, an on and off affair over who was the rightful Kig of France.  For the most part, no one seriously questioned the legitimacy of the players involved, yet they still fought for decades over who should be King.  Given that, it would be odd if people in GoT would be blind to the dangers of trying to foist a Cuckoo on the Iron Throne.

 

Moreover, I would never use Ned Stark, the LCD of poltical astuteness, as evidence of anything.  But even he knew how Robert would react to the news, and Ned knew what would happen once he made his decision.  After Ned told Littlefinger what Ned knew, Littlefinger advised that Ned support Joffrey, but Ned refused

 

   Littelfinger: So it is to be Stannis and war?

   Ned: There is no other choice.  He is the heir.

 

To get back to Cersei, she and Jaime knew damn well that Robert wasn't the father of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella,  They were arrogant enough, or indifferent enough, to believe they could get away with it.  That doesn't, IMO, absolve them of the thousands, or tens of thousands of deaths, that resulted in trying to perpetuate the lie that her children are Robert's children.

[sev]

It is interesting to notice that Cersei had witnessed her own father's impotence toward disproving Tyrion being his son.

If Cersei is responsible for the war and the death of thousands, it looks like all the decision making men of the realm were just puppets to this one woman action.

Edited July 13, 2014 by sev

[Lady S.]

I think we're meant to believe that nobody in the world has hair genes stronger than a Baratheon male.

Only on the show, but that doesn't even make sense there since Shireen is blondish herself, and if a non-dark haired Baratheon was impossible someone should have known that before Jon Arryn played detective. In the book, when Ned looks at the Big Book Of Baby Names,

he only goes through past Lannister/Baratheon unions, both of Baratheon males and females, discovering the gold always yields before the coal or some shit. And in The Princess and the Queen, we have an example of a past Targ/Baratheon union that produced a Valyrian-looking daughter, even though the Targ genes aren't really any stronger than Martell genes.

 

The thing is, if Cersei had allowed Robert to father just one living child, it's possible no one would wonder at the hair colors of the others. And she wouldn't just be preventing a succession crisis and protecting the lives of non-Lannisters she cared nothing about, she'd be protecting her own children, whose lives were in danger from birth with the chance of discovery hanging over their heads. There would no threat to the children's lives from Robert or Stannis or anyone else were it not for Cersei and Jaime's own decisions. When Cersei sat with Tommen on the throne, worried that an awful man would take him, it was her own choices that put them in that position and put Tommen's life at risk.  

 

Crazy hair genes or no, I'd think treasonous adultery would always carry a big risk, it's not these two were even great at being stealthy, getting caught by a little boy doing it in his home, half the small council knew for years and it's just the Lannisters' luck that those men were dishonest and had no real loyalty to Robert, and if Robert wasn't drunk off his ass most of the time he might have even noticed something hinky himself (think

Jaime's account of banging Cersei after Nymeria injured Joffrey, with Robert passed out on the floor beside them

). Cersei and Jaime weren't unaware of the consequences of their affair, they discussed the possibility of exposure, they just didn't care about the cost too much and got off on the adrenaline rush of their forbidden love or something. My feeling is sure, if these freaks are into that, let them get up to incest in private while Robert screws around in public, as long as it's their dirty secret and no one gets hurt. They failed majorly on both counts, and did not give one measly, tiny shit about those failures.

 

I don't think Tywin ever really believed he'd been cuckolded with Tyrion, he just didn't want to believe, he, the great and powerful Tywin Lannister, had produced a dwarf. Reminds me of

Sansa not understanding how she and Arya could be sisters and asking Cat if she was sure Arya was her daughter.

This is neither here nor there, but there's no evidence Tywin ever tried to disprove Tyrion's paternity the way Jon Arryn tried to with Joffrey's.

 

Still, Robert didn't seem to have tried very hard, or at all, to make up for it.

It kind of parallels with Dany. Drogo is hurting her, until she makes an effort to be more "loveable". While on one side it is an example of a woman turning a bad situation in her favour, on the other it makes it look like it is Cersei's fault if her husband is aggressive because she didn't try hard enough to please him.

Well, the abuse parallels Dany/Drogo, but their wedding night wasn't abusive, just pitiful. Under the circumstances, I don't think it's too much to expect a wife to make an effort by showing a little compassion. Dany had language and cultural barriers to get through, Cersei had the barrier of being a cold-hearted and petty bitch. Talk about someone who doesn't know that love should be earned and given as well as received, all Cersei did to "earn" Jaime's love was have sex with him and offer the pleasure of her company, things that are present in any marriage anyway with or without love. If Robert had a wife who could empathize with him, it's very possible the marriage could have gone a lot better. Was he incapable of loving any woman after Lyanna, or just unable to love Cersei? I doubt Robert ever knew himself, because Cersei was the only chance he got and every day with her would give him more reason to long for Lyanna. (Y'all, these past days' discussions is the most I've ever cared about Robert.)

[Hecate7]

Love isn't earned. It just happened. Lyanna didn't "earn" Robert's love, nor did Cersei or Jaime earn one another's. For that matter neither did Shae earn Tyrion's love. It's like a lightening bolt. People for thousands of years have tried to earn love, control it, understand rules about it. They've invented deities of love to pray to, made sacrifices, done love spells, and written thousands of books of formulas for getting and keeping love. Because love makes no sense. it just happens. If it could be earned, Tywin Lannister would adore Tyrion more than he did Jaime, and Stannis Baratheon would love Selyse with a ferocity that would put Cersei and Jaime to shame.

 

Cersei did her best to have sex with Robert and did nothing to stop him from enjoying her company.

 

 

Was he incapable of loving any woman after Lyanna, or just unable to love Cersei? I doubt Robert ever knew himself, because Cersei was the only chance he got and every day with her would give him more reason to long for Lyanna.

He was incapable of loving ANY woman including Lyanna. Cersei was not the only chance he got--he had at least 16 mistresses---and that's only the ones who bore him children. He didn't fall in love with any of them, either. He wouldn't have been faithful for Lyanna, and eventually he'd have despised her for one reason or another. She'd have aged, she might have become bad-tempered married to a drunken womanizer she didn't love, she might have been disgusted at his nostalgia for "making the eight," and other youthful hobbies of his. 

 

Neither Robert nor Cersei are to blame for the way the other turned out. They were the people they were, regardless. I don't think there's anything Cersei could have done, at all, to make Robert love her, or even really like or tolerate her. Cersei was prepared to try to love Robert for his good looks, but sooner or later he'd have done something to hurt her feelings. He's an insensitive, boorish man who doesn't really care about women much, so it was inevitable that sooner or later she'd fall back into the arms of Jaime, who really did love her in spite of everything. If Robert had treated Cersei like a goddess, wooed her with songs and flowers and pretended, at least, to love her, she might at least have tried not to get pregnant during her assignations with Jaime.

[Luckylyn]

Cersi made a conscious choice to avoid pregnancy with her husband and only have children with Jaime knowing that it could endanger the succession and cause conflict. No matter how she and Robert felt for each other common sense should have lead her to make sure her children were Robert's. Vanity and spite made her make an idiotic choice that has cost hundreds maybe thousands of lives. I think Robert brushing her ego by not loving her doesn't justify that level of selfish stupidity.

[sev]

If she had only shut up and given her body to the realm, everybody else would just sit around helpless in their lust for power and schemes (Usurped Targs, Balon, Renly, LF and Lysa, Varys... the Lannisters)

[Constantinople]

If she had only shut up and given her body to the realm, everybody else would just sit around helpless in their lust for power and schemes (Usurped Targs, Balon, Renly, LF and Lysa, Varys... the Lannisters)

 

If Targs, Balon, Renly LF & Lysa jumped off a bridge, that makes it OK for Cersei?

 

If Cersei's children were undoubtedly Robert's, it would be much harder for LF/Lysa to blame the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's murder because the Lannisters would no longer have a motive.  Jon Arryn served as Hand for almost 20 years, and then the Lannisters just kill him for no reason?

 

Also, if Cersei & Jaime weren't screwing each other, or at least if they could have kept their pants on when visiting Winterfell, Bran would never have seen anything,

 

Balon had already been crushed once and probably wouldn't have tried again, and Renly would have also had much less room to operate.

 

So Cersei and Jaime do bear much of the blame.

[Luckylyn]

Cersei chose to take a drug when Robert and her had sex to prevent conception and ensuring there were no legitimate heirs.  Right now the kingdom is facing threats from multiple directions.   If Cersei's children had been her husbands there would be less military conflict within which would leave them as a whole better equipped to face the coming conflicts from Dany and the White Walkers.  Stannis and the lords of the North could have been allies instead of enemies if the Cersei had not weakened her families position by choosing to only have children with her brother.  People hate the Lannisters and look for c***** in their armor, and she and Jaime gave them the weapon to use against them.  They are weaker now because of the legitimacy of the succession is in question.   Smart people don't help give potential enemies ammunition.  If she only allowed at least some of her children to be Roberts, they would have been better off.

 

A clever woman would make sure to have legitimate children to ensure her position especially since the hair color seemed to be huge sign about the parentage of the children.  Imagine how someone like Margary would have handled Robert.  She probably would have had a lover on the side, but she would have made sure to conceive children with Robert.

[Lady S.]

Love isn't earned. It just happened. Lyanna didn't "earn" Robert's love, nor did Cersei or Jaime earn one another's. For that matter neither did Shae earn Tyrion's love. It's like a lightening bolt. People for thousands of years have tried to earn love, control it, understand rules about it. They've invented deities of love to pray to, made sacrifices, done love spells, and written thousands of books of formulas for getting and keeping love. Because love makes no sense. it just happens. If it could be earned, Tywin Lannister would adore Tyrion more than he did Jaime, and Stannis Baratheon would love Selyse with a ferocity that would put Cersei and Jaime to shame.

 

Cersei did her best to have sex with Robert and did nothing to stop him from enjoying her company.

 

 

He was incapable of loving ANY woman including Lyanna. Cersei was not the only chance he got--he had at least 16 mistresses---and that's only the ones who bore him children. He didn't fall in love with any of them, either. He wouldn't have been faithful for Lyanna, and eventually he'd have despised her for one reason or another. She'd have aged, she might have become bad-tempered married to a drunken womanizer she didn't love, she might have been disgusted at his nostalgia for "making the eight," and other youthful hobbies of his. 

 

Neither Robert nor Cersei are to blame for the way the other turned out. They were the people they were, regardless. I don't think there's anything Cersei could have done, at all, to make Robert love her, or even really like or tolerate her. Cersei was prepared to try to love Robert for his good looks, but sooner or later he'd have done something to hurt her feelings. He's an insensitive, boorish man who doesn't really care about women much, so it was inevitable that sooner or later she'd fall back into the arms of Jaime, who really did love her in spite of everything. If Robert had treated Cersei like a goddess, wooed her with songs and flowers and pretended, at least, to love her, she might at least have tried not to get pregnant during her assignations with Jaime.

The earn comment was a reference to a comment about Robert's ability to love, just to say that Cersei is certainly a selfish lover as well. Obviously no one can make someone fall in love with them but a non romantic love can be formed based on mutual affection. All Cersei had to do was be herself to get Robert not to enjoy her company. Why should he treat her like a goddess and woo and worship her if she offers nothing in return? Ned Stark didn't woo his wife, they just worked at their marriage together, something Cersei is imo no more capable of doing for the long term than Robert was. Expecting him not to smack her around and throw his infidelity in her face to publicly humiliate her is reasonable, expecting him or any other man to love her the way Jaime does for no reason at all is not imho. Robert had mistresses but no real other relationships so I don't how that proves he was utterly incapable of loving a wife who wasn't Lyanna, being incapable of monogamy in a society where men are basically allowed to fuck whoever they want does not translate into being incapable of love. I agree with you that it's not so much a question of an affair with Jaime as her purposely bearing the fruits of that affair but any affair is treasonous and would carry the risk of children. Cersei should know better than to have Jaime's spawn again now that she's single, but would she abort an accidental pregnancy by Jaime with a husband, any husband, to pin it on? The fact that

at the time of Jaime's joining the Kingsguard, Tywin was still planning a royal marriage for her, possibly to Rhaegar if Elia should die of natural causes, yet Cersei promised Jaime they could be together always, indicates to me she not only wanted Jaime unmarried himself but wanted him around as an option after she got married. And imo it's not clear that her fucking Jaime on the morning of her wedding day was the last time they had sex until conceiving Joffrey, she only thinks/hopes Greenstone was the time and place of Joffrey's conception, which could mean her saying she wanted to give Robert horns instead of Jaime killing him only meant that she wanted to try for a baby for a literal cuckolding, not that Jaime had been by her side but keeping celibate for the years up to the point of her horns declaration.

Neither Cersei nor Robert is responsible for who the other was as a person, yes, but Cersei is responsible for her her own actions and choices, and who she was a person contributed to Robert not just not loving her, but hating her. I guess my original point is that they're both responsible for how miserable their marriage was, and as Cersei was part of the problem, we can't really say that a different king, a different husband would have loved her and given her reason not to ever fuck Jaime during her marriage. She was willing to love a husband she thought was hot but didn't really know at all, I'm not sure that really says anything about her willingness to learn to love a man who wasn't Jaime and put real effort into producing a good marriage.

 

She and Jaime both knew damn well they were risking their own necks if their affair was found out which, at the least would leave her children orphans even if they were spared, but would also throw their paternity into question and make anyone take a second look at their lack of resemblance to Robert, because the only reason a consort's adultery is treason is to ensure the sanctity of the royal succession. Even without a crazy super seed of black hair, an heir only resembling his mother who was fucking her own brother gives reason to doubt his legitimacy and bar him from the line of succession. Having heirs that don't look like the father of record leaves room for enemies to question their legitimacy, however baseless the accusations are, and by purposely having her only lover's bastards, and having a lover who looked like her, Cersei knowingly gave her enemies this ammunition. Westeros

has had not one but two major Targ succession crises with allegations of an heir's paternity being a lie.

Henry VIII had two wives beheaded on charges of adultery, in one case all the charges were surely trumped up and in the other case there's no proof Katharine Howard actually went to bed with her guy on the side. Westeros has no real justice system either, if Robert had suspected anything on his own, he could have executed the twins and started a war with Tywin himself without lining up all his bastards in a row and reading the Baratheon hair history into the royal record. The purpose of the gold always yielding before the coal genes is to remove any doubt even before Cersei proudly confirming the incestuous cuckolding to Ned, it's not that such an accusation was unforeseeable otherwise. (Sidenote, I've always loved Cersei's response there. Where Ned must think he's thought up this great comeback, "your brother or your lover?", and Cersei basically just says, "Yeah, both, it's not just incest, it's twincest, we shared the womb, so it's only natural that our bodies keep in touch, duh." Not even a second wasted feigning shock or trying to deny it like any normal person whose committed treason. Which is proof enough imo that Septgate was a fluke and Cersei was an eager participant with two-handed Jaime, as well as proof she didn't fear Robert finding out, one of many clues in that scene that she would sooner have him killed.)  And the whole investigative process would have speeded up quite a bit if Bran had awoken from his coma remembering his climb up that tower and how and why he fell.

 

Another thing to consider is that by Cersei's own logic, having and raising Robert's children wouldn't have been unbearable for her, she had to endure some sexual contact with him anyway, and she thinks a mother has no choice about loving any of her children, no matter what, so what does having a little black-haired beauty to love cost her?. She advised Tyrion to put a baby in Sansa already, thinking Sansa's consent wouldn't matter once she had a baby to live for. And hmm, why did Sansa need a new reason to live, maybe because Cersei's family kept having members of hers killed? Which Cersei was downright delighted about earlier that same ep, when they heard the news of Robb and Cat's deaths, so if saying a baby would be good for Sansa was her idea of sympathy, it was a pretty sick excuse for such. Cersei is someone who lives on even the most petty resentments but never ever admits any of her misfortunes might be partly her own doing, blaming the gods for how Joffrey turned out doesn't quite count imo, (no wonder she never stopped thinking of Joff as her precious baby, to admit his inhumanity would mean realizing her own and regretting all the trouble she went to to put her incest spawn in power), and cares nothing for the misfortunes of non-Lannisters, in fact being willing to hurt or kill anyone to satisfy her vicious desires, and knowingly risking causing a succession crisis does qualify as that, she and Tywin both think nothing of starting wars because of a mistaken belief that they can't possibly be the losers in the game of thrones and belief that anyone else is collateral damage worth losing to satisfy their own pride.

[fantique]

Cersei just keeps making me shake my head in contempt. I just want to see inside her twisted mind and understand how she has this skewed view of the world. Poor woman lost out on both nature and nurtutre.

Yes, her mariage with Robert was disastrous but I genuinely think that it would have been bad with anyone. She is innately unable to truly care for another person. Her vanity and arrogance would have repelled anyone at some point or other. Her problem is that since she takes other people for granted and lived the illusion that the world is here to serve the Lannisters, her cruel and petty side would have come out in her treatment of the husband and anyone around them. I feel like when she looks at her children and Jamie, the live she feels is complete vicarious narcissism. They are an extension of her. I not saying she doesn't feel love for them, I just think it's rooted in them being part her.

I really want to see her realise that running a kingdom is not a hobby that one takes when trying to be accepted at the adults' table. She has hekd on to the thought that the only reason she has not been able to show her political prowess was because she is underestimated as a woman... she is going to realise it's because she is out her depth.

 

Random note about figuring out that none of Cersei's children were Robert's; genes that contribute to blond hair are recessive so probabilities would suggest that most likekly at least 2/3 of their children would be dark-haired. Whereas black/brown hair genes are dominant and therefore the combination of dark heir genes on both sides of the familly are not necessary. Obviously they did not have DNA testing but it would be a pretty abvious thing to observe and record I think. They would then develop a theory. It also helped that all the other children Robert fathered regardless of their mothers were dark-haired.

 

PS: I am glad Lena got nominated for an Emmy, not for this season but for the aggregate work of all past 4 seasons

[Avaleigh]

If Cersei's children had been her husbands there would be less military conflict within which would leave them as a whole better equipped to face the coming conflicts from Dany and the White Walkers.

I'm not sure that I believe that it would have made a huge difference. IMO Renly would have still wanted to be king. If his nephew had been a little asshole like Joffrey only with dark hair, I can still totally see him thinking that the realm would be better off with him as king. Even if Joffrey hadn't been such a sick little sadist I can see Renly thinking that the realm would need a man rather than a boy as king. I still see him jumping over Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis because he wanted it. That was basically the bottom line IMO.

 

Threats like the Ironborn? Again, I easily see this happening anyway after Balon's death. Those people just come across as being inherently rebellious and seem like they're just looking for an excuse to fight. I can't see Euron caring whether Joffrey, Tommen, or Myrcella are legitimate or not. 

 

Lysa still wouldn't have wanted to be married to Jon Arryn and would have been willing to get rid of him, Littlefinger would still have been scheming, Dany still would have been a threat, the Martells and Sand Snakes would still want their revenge on the Lannisters, etc.

 

The main difference that I see is that Ned would have been willing to remain Hand of the King if he'd thought Joffrey was trueborn and would never have confronted Cersei. But I can easily see huge conflicts happening with Ned choosing to stand against Tywin Lannister over the whole Tyrion being kidnapped issue. Jaime and Ned would also still have had their conflict.

 

I don't know, I just see war happening whether the royal children are legitimate or not. Robert says it in the second episode I think. They just know that war is coming and that it's coming soon. There were already multiple uneasy relationships and situations so that it seemed like it wouldn't take much to start a fire that would spread and spread continue to burn for years. 

[Conan Troutman]

What would have changed is that Stannis, stickler for the rules he is, wouldn't have wagered war against Joffrey. Does Renly manage to get all the Baratheon bannermen, one way or another? That's the big question. Stannis doesn't need them himself, but he would never give them to Renly. If not, I doubt he would try it, even with Tyrell help. If yes, then KL falls rather quickly. Either way, Westeros would be united under a strong, accepted King. Now, it is divided under a weak King and pretty much everone knows about those rumors. So yes, if Cersei had managed to at least only have tue Baratheon children, whoever would be King would be in a much better position against the threats from north and east. 

 

Random note about figuring out that none of Cersei's children were Robert's; genes that contribute to blond hair are recessive so probabilities would suggest that most likekly at least 2/3 of their children would be dark-haired.

 

If Robert had mixed hair genes (one Baratheon dark, one Targaryen blonde), it wouldn't be 2 out of 3, it would be 1 out of 2 because Cersei obviously has two blonde genes. However, since all of Robert's bastards were dark haired and I highly doubt he exclusively slept with dark/dark girls, he must've had two dominant dark genes, so all of his children would be dark haired. So if Westerosi knew about that stuff (doesn't take technology to figure it out, only a smart man - Mendelsson came to that conclusion without), it would be pretty obvious that all three children could not be his and could even be considered hard evidence by a court.

 

[Winnief]

In honor of the premiere of Season Five, I'm giving this friend a bump up.

 

Firstly, I'd like to give my heartfelt praise to the actress they had playing young Cersei-she nailed both the body language and Cersei's smugness oh so, well.  Secondly, the content of the prophecy was certainly telling wasn't it?!?  Cersei must fear a younger, more beautiful queen to cast her down...and she will outlive all three of her children.  I really wish that last part wasn't true for Tommen and Mycella's sakes, but I fear it is.

 

And now we have Cersei, running KL, on her own without Tywin.  Seven Save Us All.

[Lady S.]

But my favorite scene has to be the Cersei flashback. Great casting choice and acting, the girl certainly had all the arrogance and the bitchyness down. Minus the broken bitterness of course. Her friend looked like she could've been from Dorne, with the yellowish color and all - maybe she was Elia Martell, during the visit Oberyn talked about with Tyrion in the cell? Not sure if this would add up timeline wise though. She could also just be a random courtier, it's not that her role in that scene was anything other than "give Cersei someone to talk to".

 

Anyway, the prophecy was certainly interesting. Let's take a look:

- You'll never wed the prince, you'll wed the king - checked.

- You'll be queen - for a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.

- The King will have 20 children, and you will have three - checked.

- Gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds

 

Parts two and four are somewhat ambiguous. Golden crowns could mean the hair color, but it also could be taken literally - only Myrcella needs a crown now for that to come true, and Tommen isn't exactly safe. Golden shrouds, that could mean all three die while holding the Iron Throne - it could be only the King gets the honor of a golden shroud, and it looks like even Tywin didn't get one.

Now to part two: Cersei will be queen - for a time. Now, what exactly does queen mean? Married to the King? Or does she have to hold the Throne herself? And for a time? Cersei was married to Robert roughly 17 years, I'd consider that more than just a time. The younger one could be either Margaery (if she only has to be married to the King) or Daenerys (if she has to hold the Throne herself, aka be THE Queen) or maybe some dark horse (speaking of dark, Queen Sansa would be fantastic).

 

My speculative takeaway: Tommen will die sooner rather than later and Myrcella will follow him (both on the throne and probably also into the grave). Cersei will somehow seize the Throne without a birthright (if Tommen dies before Margaery gets pregnant, Margaery would be out of the way), only to be unseated shortly thereafter. This could take place during this season and the next and end with Dany taking over. But of course this could be a red herring or I'm interpreting too much, so we'll see.

Oberyn's story took place when Tyrion had just been born, and Cersei would have been a littler girl then, she's not 11 or 12 or 13 (or however old that actress was) years older than Tyrion.

I think 17 years counts as "a time" in magic prophecy terms. With a different king who managed not to drink himself to an early grave or get murdered, the marriage could have lasted a lot longer. And she was asking about being the Queen in the same way Marg does, as in married to one King and mother to the next, so I don't think she has to somehow steal the Iron Throne for herself. Right she's the Queen Regent (until Tommen comes into his majority, if he survives that long) and Margy is the younger Queen, if Marg manages to take Cersei's remaining power and force her from King's Landing, then she'll have fully replaced Cersei.

It's the "take all you hold dear" part I wonder about, surely that would include her children? Marg and Sansa both had indirect roles in Joffers's murder, as the motive and the means of poison carrying respectively, but I doubt Sansa could have anything to do with Tommen or Myrcella's demise or that Marg's black widow curse could do in Myrcella. Maybe it means all she has left after all of her children are dead but I'm not sure what that would be since her children are the source of her royal power. Maybe the power of House Lannister of Casterly Rock then, Dany could do that. My money's on Dany in any case because that's the one option she'd never see coming, she has Marg in her sights at the moment, and believes Sansa plotted to murder Joffrey, I'd think it'd have to be someone she isn't already wishing dead for real irony. And with the childhood blood-of-the-dragon fascination that has to be at work in the twincest, I could see her even acknowledging Dany's beauty in a way she couldn't with a Tyrell or a Stark.

[Jennifersdc]

Hah! Love the name of this thread.

[fantique]

I love how Cersei doesn't see why what the Lannisters have done to the Martells would be cause for long term blame. No, of course Cersei there is absolutely no reason why they associate your house with their misery. It's not like your dad ordered to have their niece and nephew killed and when their mother dared to try and protect her, the Mountain raped her and killed her children in front of her, right? No reason to hate you whatsoever. Such drama queens those Martells...

Edited April 23, 2015 by fantique

[Lady S.]

Cersei is a real drama queen when it comes to fire, first she'd burn House Lannister to the ground before leaving Tommen to Tywin and Marg, now she'll burn down every city in Dorne if Myrcella is harmed. Dany's not the only Queen who should be worried about turning out like Aerys.

[Maximum Taco]

Cersei has a completely self centric view of the world.

 

The only things that matters to her is her. Even her love for Jaime and her children can be seen as extensions of her love for herself. Especially early on when the Lannister twins were said to look almost alike when Jaime had long flowing golden hair. This also explains her dalliance with cousin Lancel.

 

Even if she can understand how the Martells feel, she doesn't care. She has no sympathy, because she isn't capable of sympathy.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I love how Cersei doesn't see why what the Lannisters have done to the Martells would be cause for long term blame. No, of course Cersei there is absolutely no reason why they associate your house with their misery. It's not like your dad ordered to have their niece and nephew killed and when their mother dared to try and protect her, the Mountain raped her and killed her children in front of her, right? No reason to hate you whatsoever. Such drama queens those Martells...

I think Cersei gets the Martells anger to a point--she knows that they have no reason to love her family and this is one of many reasons she doesn't want Myrcella sent there in the first place. As far as Cersei not interfering and telling Oberyn that he can't fight the Mountain--to me anyone who dislikes her/the Lannister side would just say that she was only trying to spare the Mountain in addition to robbing Oberyn of his chance to get justice for Elia and her children. That's what's so frustrating to me about Ellaria's anger with regard to Oberyn's death. She's completely absolving Oberyn of any responsibility from his participation and wants to make it seem like it was the fault of the Lannisters that he died and that simply isn't what happened. The Lannisters had just handed Oberyn a position of importance in addition to bringing the Martells into the fold via marriage. The Lannisters are at least making efforts to move on from the bad blood between the families. 

 

If Ellaria does succeed in having Myrcella murdered then all she's doing is putting her country at risk for full on war. Ellaria comes across as a completely selfish and deluded person they way that she's trying to bully Doran into killing an innocent teenager because she wants to feel better about what happened to Oberyn. 

 

Cersei, Jaime, and Kevan are the remaining powerful Lannisters and not one of them was involved in the death of Oberyn, Rhaenys, Aegon, or Elia. If they're expected to pay for Tywin's mistakes, fair enough maybe, but then shouldn't the Martells have to pay for their own mistakes? Oberyn choosing to fight the Mountain in the trial by combat was an error of judgment on the part of Oberyn. If anybody could have stopped the trial by combat it would have been Tywin but again he'd run into the problem of being seen as somebody who was again robbing the Martells of justice with regard to Elia and her children. Additionally, if Tywin hadn't allowed Oberyn to volunteer as Tyrion's champion then it would (again) look like he was doing everything in his power to keep Tyrion from having a fair trial. 

 

Even if she can understand how the Martells feel, she doesn't care. She has no sympathy, because she isn't capable of sympathy.

I think this is true of book!Cersei. Show!Cersei though I think is capable of sympathy and even empathy. I'm principally thinking of the showrunners saying that Cersei was being sincere in the scene where she's talking with Catelyn about the loss of her first child with Robert after Bran's fall. I even think she had some small (super small lol) sympathy for Sansa and seemed like she was trying to make her feel better when she said that one day she'll at least love the children that she has with Joffrey. I felt like she was essentially putting herself in Sansa's shoes for a moment. Oddly enough, she even seemed to feel a small drop of sympathy for Robert during that conversation where they're talking about their marriage. 

 

These moments are few and far between but I think they're there. 

 

For the most part though I agree that Cersei is outrageously insensitive and unsympathetic. She could have had an ally in Loras and they could have worked together to prevent their marriage or even make the most of it by making it a political union and nothing more. Cersei can acknowledge that Loras is just as miserable with the idea of their proposed marriage as she is but she can only feel sympathy for herself in that situation. Similarly, when Tyrion is in the position that she's in she can only smirk and doesn't feel sorry for him for a moment even though, as she put it, they were all being 'shipped off to hell together'. 

[Lady S.]

I think Cersei believed she was being helpful in her chats with Sansa in s2, but it wouldn't pass for empathy from a normal human being when she's brushing off her son's abuse of Sansa to assume babies will make life better, and ignoring that her own beloved children were conceived through her choice by the man devoted to her. Pretty insensitive from someone who frequently complains of how marriage is unfair to her. And when she smirked about Tyrion's marriage she was once again unsympathetic to Sansa being forced to marry a Lannister. I doubt hoping Sansa loved her Lannister babies had anything to do with Sansa's well-being or happiness, and talking about the fulfillment of motherhood was just more complaining about her own marriage than a sign of concern that Sansa might need a reason not to throw herself off a tower. I don't remember her feeling sympathy for Robert either, but I don't care since he didn't deserve any, but her relationship with Sansa really showed an outrageous failure to put herself in Sansa's shoes and see that Sansa had the worse position. It was more like she was trying to put Sansa in her shoes of only needing a golden brat to give her life meaning, and in doing so grossly minimizing Sansa's problems. The idea of anyone's troubles mattering as much or more than her own just does not compute when seeing the world through Cersei-vision. 

 

Tyrion's plan of offering Myrcella to Dorne in s2 expecting nothing, really, in return does look very stupid now though, and makes Cersei look right in that particular disagreement. I don't know why the show had Tywin be the one to tie the Martells more firmly to the throne by offering a seat on the council and justice for Elia.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Lady S.

[nksarmi]

 

 

Tyrion's plan of offering Myrcella to Dorne in s2 expecting nothing, really, in return does look very stupid now though, and makes Cersei look right in that particular disagreement. I don't know why the show had Tywin be the one to tie the Martells more firmly to the throne by offering a seat on the council and justice for Elia.

 

Tyrion's plan of sending Myrcella to Dorne - other than keeping his niece that he loved safe from an attack on King's Landing - was not stupid at all.  He engaged her to the heir of Dorne and it was done to keep Dorne out of the War of Five Kings.

 

Dorne has every reason to name the Bartheons usurpers - their princess was the future queen/queen mother.  Robert is the only non Targareon to sit on the Iron Throne for 300 years.  When he died, there is good reason to question is his child OR brother should succeed him or if someone should go get the living Targereon and bring her back to Westerous.  Can you imagine the mess the War of Five Kings would have been if Dany could have been brought into the fray through Dorne? 

 

Furthermore, KL would have been screwed if Dorne backed Stannis.  Sending Myrcella to Dorne is literally one of the best moves Tryion made and I believe his father backed his decision when Cersei ranted about it.

[Maximum Taco]

Tyrion's plan of sending Myrcella to Dorne - other than keeping his niece that he loved safe from an attack on King's Landing - was not stupid at all.  He engaged her to the heir of Dorne and it was done to keep Dorne out of the War of Five Kings.

 

Dorne has every reason to name the Bartheons usurpers - their princess was the future queen/queen mother.  Robert is the only non Targareon to sit on the Iron Throne for 300 years.  When he died, there is good reason to question is his child OR brother should succeed him or if someone should go get the living Targereon and bring her back to Westerous.  Can you imagine the mess the War of Five Kings would have been if Dany could have been brought into the fray through Dorne? 

 

Furthermore, KL would have been screwed if Dorne backed Stannis.  Sending Myrcella to Dorne is literally one of the best moves Tryion made and I believe his father backed his decision when Cersei ranted about it.

 

Exactly.

 

This is the same reason the Lannisters give Littlefinger Harrenhal and send him off to marry Lysa.

 

They don't expect Dorne or The Vale to actually contribute forces, but the marriages ensure that they won't be allying themselves with Stannis (or when they were alive Renly or Robb), it's worth the marriage to keep the Martells and Arryns neutral.

 

Of course we all know they shouldn't trust Littlefinger to follow along with their plan, but if he was loyal to the crown it's an awesome idea.

 

Now from the Lannister perspective they have ensured that

i) The Tyrells are their allies via Tommen's marriage to Margaery

ii) The Martells are at best their allies and at worst neutral via Myrcella's marriage to Trystane.

iii) The Arryns are at best their allies and at worst neutral via Littlefingers custody of Robin Arryn (even though this isn't true)

iv) The Freys are their allies due to them burning every other bridge by their conspiracy to murder Robb Stark.

v)  The Boltons are their allies due to Ramsay's legitimization only being valid under Tommen (or a Baratheon successor's) rule (if someone else becomes King, he is no longer a Bolton) and also because they have also burned every bridge by their conspiracy to murder Robb Stark.

 

So now 5 Kingdoms are either with them, or neutral, and the only allies Stannis has left is if he can incite the North to rise up against the Boltons.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I think Myrcella would have been better off in the Vale with a betrothal to Robert Arryn. The Elia thing would always hang over Myrcella's head even though it has nothing to do with her. Myrcella engaged to Robert Arryn though keeps Lysa comfortable in thinking that the Lannisters aren't out to get her and this basically holds the center of the kingdoms together with only the North, Dorne and the Iron Islands being out of the fold. 

 

Throw a Lannister cousin at the Iron Islands to get some degree of control over that fleet and they probably wouldn't need an alliance with Dorne because they'd have almost everyone else.

 

I wonder how different things might have gone for Cersei if she made it a point to make Littlefinger an ally as opposed to stupidly challenging him when it wasn't necessary. For example what if she'd allowed Littlefinger to marry Sansa right after Ned's death? What if she'd had Littlefinger arrange for the betrothal between Robert Arryn and Myrcella? 

[Constantinople]

I think Myrcella would have been better off in the Vale with a betrothal to Robert Arryn. The Elia thing would always hang over Myrcella's head even though it has nothing to do with her. Myrcella engaged to Robert Arryn though keeps Lysa comfortable in thinking that the Lannisters aren't out to get her and this basically holds the center of the kingdoms together with only the North, Dorne and the Iron Islands being out of the fold.

 

If Dorne is left out of the fold and Mace Tyrell's army joins up with Tywin's, the Reach is at risk of invasion from Dorne,

If Dorne is left out of the fold and Mace Tyrell's army is held back to protect itself from a Dornish invasion, Tywin's army might not be large enough to defeat Stannis's forces at King's Landing.

So your either risk losing the richest of the 7 Kingdoms (since the Lannister gold mines have run dry) or the Iron Throne itself.

 

Throw a Lannister cousin at the Iron Islands to get some degree of control over that fleet and they probably wouldn't need an alliance with Dorne because they'd have almost everyone else.

I'm not sure why Balon, a self-proclaimed independent ruler of the Iron Islands, would want to do that since he would insist on the Iron Island's independence, and the Lannister would insist on it's continued inclusion in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Maximum Taco]

Throw a Lannister cousin at the Iron Islands to get some degree of control over that fleet and they probably wouldn't need an alliance with Dorne because they'd have almost everyone else.

 

Wouldn't work.

 

The iron born only marry other iron born. The mainlanders they keep only as salt wives.

Edited April 25, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show info.

[Avaleigh]

Then why does Euron think that Dany should be his wife instead of some woman from the Iron Islands? This guy is all about turning back to the old ways of the Iron Islands. Furthermore in TWOIAF we see the the Iron Islanders married to women from the mainland.

Edited April 25, 2015 by SilverStormm
Please tag Book Talk in here.

[Maximum Taco]

Then why does Euron think that Dany should be his wife instead of some woman from the Iron Islands? This guy is all about turning back to the old ways of the Iron Islands. Furthermore in TWOIAF we see the the Iron Islanders married to women from the mainland.

 

This isn't a book talk thread, so

there is no Euron, atleast not yet.

 

But...

 

Well for one she has dragons, and for two she is rumoured to be the most beautiful woman alive.

 

Those are two things that would probably tempt any man into breaking with convention, especially a man with aspirations to rule the seven kingdoms.

 

Would this Lannister cousin also have 3 gigantic weapons of mass destruction and be the most beautiful woman alive? I'm sure the Lord Reaper of Pyke would accept her if that was the case. But I somehow doubt it.

 

I'm sure there is the occaisional marriage to the mainland, but for the most part it seems the Iron Islanders marry their own and keep the rest as thralls.

[Avaleigh]

Well for one she has dragons, and for two she is rumoured to be the most beautiful woman alive. 

 

Those are two things that would probably tempt any man into breaking with convention.

 

I'm sure there is the occaisional marriage to the mainland, but for the most part it seems the Iron Islanders marry their own and keep the rest as thralls.

Tywin also seemed to think that Balon would be open to the offer of marrying thirty something year old Cersei.

 

I agree with you that it probably isn't that common but no more uncommon than Ned ending up with Catelyn as opposed to some Northern girl. 

[Maximum Taco]

Tywin also seemed to think that Balon would be open to the offer of marrying thirty something year old Cersei.

 

I agree with you that it probably isn't that common but no more uncommon than Ned ending up with Catelyn as opposed to some Northern girl. 

 

Tywin also thought he could marry Cersei to Rhaegar and Loras.

 

Tywin's not exactly the best matchmaker. And even so he's trying to marry Cersei to just about anybody who is in a great house. He'd probably marry Cersei to Bran if he had made the trip down to King's Landing and ended up captured like Sansa.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Lol, good point. 

 

I will say though that those were pretty extraordinary circumstances and Aerys was really just refusing Tywin to be a dick as opposed to Tywin attempting to make some unrealistic match. I don't think Aerys had anything against the idea of Rhaegar/Cersei in and of itself unless some part of him was tweaked with the idea of the son that he doesn't particularly get along with ending up with someone who looks just like his one time favorite. Joanna Lannister. I think it was all about giving Tywin the finger. 

[Maximum Taco]

Lol, good point. 

 

I will say though that those were pretty extraordinary circumstances and Aerys was really just refusing Tywin to be a dick as opposed to Tywin attempting to make some unrealistic match. I don't think Aerys had anything against the idea of Rhaegar/Cersei in and of itself unless some part of him was tweaked with the idea of the son that he doesn't particularly get along with ending up with someone who looks just like his one time favorite. Joanna Lannister. I think it was all about giving Tywin the finger. 

 

Fair enough, but it still proves that Tywin can't really judge people well. So he has no clue how receptive someone might be to a marriage.

 

More importantly, all you can think about now is that Cersei/Bran pairing right? Their couple name could be "Brannister"

Edited April 25, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Lady S.]

Tyrion's plan of sending Myrcella to Dorne - other than keeping his niece that he loved safe from an attack on King's Landing - was not stupid at all.  He engaged her to the heir of Dorne and it was done to keep Dorne out of the War of Five Kings.

 

Dorne has every reason to name the Bartheons usurpers - their princess was the future queen/queen mother.  Robert is the only non Targareon to sit on the Iron Throne for 300 years.  When he died, there is good reason to question is his child OR brother should succeed him or if someone should go get the living Targereon and bring her back to Westerous.  Can you imagine the mess the War of Five Kings would have been if Dany could have been brought into the fray through Dorne? 

 

Furthermore, KL would have been screwed if Dorne backed Stannis.  Sending Myrcella to Dorne is literally one of the best moves Tryion made and I believe his father backed his decision when Cersei ranted about it.

The stupid part is that there's nothing to stop them using Myrcella as a hostage as they're doing now. Oberyn or Doran being in KL on a regular basis would have prevented that with the grudge about Elia's murder somewhat mollified, but Tywin was the one who thought of that, not Tyrion. The Martells didn't join with Renly or Stannis because they were never going to, not because Myrcella's presence prevented them. They could have even given her over to Stannis if they wanted to, it was an alliance between two families in a blood feud based entirely on Stark-style good faith. Book Tywin

only accepted it because Tyrion's offer of a council to Doran meant each side had an "honored guest" for the long-term,

show Tyrion's offer was only about Myrcella and that's why it wasn't enough. 

 

I don't think Tyrion ever had any real intention of sending Myrcella to the Eyrie after his own experience there, and I think that was entirely the right call. Lysa and Robin are not good allies, and Littlefinger framed both Cersei and Tyrion to the Starks before they'd ever done anything to make an enemy of him, so no, he was never a good ally either. If he had Sansa as a wife (ew), he probably would have just destabilized the Lannister regime in some new way.

 

Then why does Euron think that Dany should be his wife instead of some woman from the Iron Islands? This guy is all about turning back to the old ways of the Iron Islands. Furthermore in TWOIAF we see the the Iron Islanders married to women from the mainland.

Because he is insane and wants her dragons? The island/mainland matches in the World Book never really worked, did they? The ironborn/Lannister match ended terribly. Also, Balon's wife is still alive, so he could only take Cersei as a salt wife.

Edited April 25, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show info.

[nksarmi]

Well in fairness, I don't think show Tyrion had any idea that prince Oberyn would come to KL and die.  His plan still worked as marriage was always a way to broker deals in Westerous - even without an honored guest in return.

[Meredith Quill]

I have had to tag quite a few posts in here that contain Non Show/Book Info. Please remember to tag ANY info that is from outside the show in these threads!

 

Thank you.