The Vow

[Armchair Critic]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:32 AM, charmed1 said:

I watched Rich & Shameless

Thanks for the info, I am going to watch that episode now.

[DanaK]

I’m only a 1/3 of the way through the finale and it’s all so sad and disgusting how badly Keith abused these women

[EtheltoTillie]

Those nutty supporters stand outside Raniere’s prison and signal to him with strobe lights and they do dances.  Are they using Morse code?  

[DanaK]

Wow on the parts Nancy read of her letter to the judge and talking about it. So she did have a brief sexual relationship with Keith. And he told her not to have a relationship with anyone else without discussing it with him first, so she didn’t have one for 20 years. Sad, and even sadder that she’s worried about her elderly parents if she goes to prison. Wow and shocking on that story about a dying Pam messing herself and Keith not letting Nancy go help her until he had breakfast

Those remaining Keith supporters are just sad, including Nikki

The defense lawyer remains an asshole. Not surprising that he couldn’t get many people to testify for Keith, given the porn and underage sex charges. NXIVM was not legitimate Mr. Attorney, and probably never was

Interesting that the New York Post reporter thought the government was underhanded in presenting some of its evidence, pushing shocking over stuff that were actual crimes

Good to see Dani made a victim impact statement and that Camila finally turned against Keith and also made a victim impact statement. Hopefully both sisters and their family can heal from this

Keith never did good Nancy. She still needs some waking up to do. Hopefully she continues with her therapy, because it did seem to start to help her question things she doesn’t want to look too closely at

I doubt any appeal of Keith’s sentence will get very far

Hard to believe one guy had so many people, especially women, under his thumb for so long

I’m kind of sad this series is over. I hope it does a lot of good in helping to warn people away from similar bad situations

Man, the background music is really foreboding and sad

[Armchair Critic]

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

I’m only a 1/3 of the way through the finale and it’s all so sad and disgusting how badly Keith abused these women

I'm 5 minutes into it and already had to pause it because Keith's texts with Camila are so cringe. He is so nasty.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Armchair Critic

[ninjago]

Nicki knew the Camila testimony would be damaging.  Does that mean she knew about his pedophilia and child porn?  Her objections were that the trial wasn’t fair, and she believed DOS was a choice, etc. but I wanted them to ask her how she continued to support him with the pedophilia accusations?  Because his lawyer might be a creep, but he was right: financial charges and even some coercive adult sex can maybe be spun, but once you’re a child pornographer and rapist no one is listening to you anymore.

[Armchair Critic]

Keith even did a number on his lawyer, notice he said "Keith said I am resourceful and talented and he is putting his faith in me". I look at Keith and I see a manipulative little man, but he really does have a knack for getting people to do what he wants.

Still watching because I keep cringing and have to pause it. How convenient now Nancy is worried about her parents because she can use them to help her case for not going to jail.

Even when Nancy was crying she was careful how she worded things to not implicate herself more. I do believe she knew most of what was going on.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Armchair Critic

[Door County Cherry]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Those nutty supporters stand outside Raniere’s prison and signal to him with strobe lights and they do dances.  Are they using Morse code?  

It cracked me up when they were taking a picture at the end that one of the guys kept adjusting his hair to look "just so." 

4 hours ago, DanaK said:

So she did have a brief sexual relationship with Keith.

As soon as they revealed it, I said "I knew it!"  There were some one-on-one video of them in previous episodes where she just looked besotted.  

4 hours ago, DanaK said:

Interesting that the New York Post reporter thought the government was underhanded in presenting some of its evidence, pushing shocking over stuff that were actual crimes

But didn't she change her mind once the photos were brought in?  I think she made that statement before they got to the meat of the Camila stuff and realized what they were getting at.  

I did find it interesting that he groomed Daniela but waited until she was 18 but chose not for Camila.  It makes me wonder if someone warned him not to mess with underage girls so he changed his MO.  Or was there something irresistible in Keith's mind that he threw out caution. 

2 hours ago, ninjago said:

I wanted them to ask her how she continued to support him with the pedophilia accusations?

I'm wondering if she still believes Keith's "was the child raped by an adult truly victimized by that adult if they don't realize they're victims?  Or is it society telling them they're victims that really messes them up?" thought exercise--or whatever Nancy called it.

Or she thinks it's all made up to convict Keith. 

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Even when Nancy was crying she was careful how she worded things to not implicate herself more. I do believe she knew most of what was going on.

I can't help but be fascinated by her.  I think she's in denial. I don't think she'll ever be out of denial.  I don't know how much she knows.  Clearly Keith brought her in as a fixer to some of his sexual exploits but we also know he was good at hiding some of them from her that he didn't want her to know about.  

She clearly hasn't accepted that the program she helped design was meant to create a cult.  She doesn't realize that people come to the classes and some don't come back because they're onto something new. Or they have to be judicious with money.  Or they eventually realize there's just something off about it all even when they don't realize it's a cult.  (And I absolutely believe many did realize it once Keith was referred to as Vanguard because that ish is crazy.) You can see her still clinging to the belief that it was good in the conversations with the cult expert. 

She also hasn't truly embraced how much she enabled him. She did compromise herself morally and ethically bit by bit over the 20 years she spent with him.  She saw what a callous dick he was even if he didn't know all his crimes but she never turned on him until he was arrested. 

I can believe she didn't know that Keith started having sex with Camila at 15 as Keith liked his secrets.  But I also don't know that she would have turned on him had she known.  And if she's honest with herself, neither does she.  That's the reckoning she has to have.  

[Armchair Critic]

Who is the black woman who was with Nicki Clyne supporting Keith? She looked familiar, is she an actress?

[DanaK]

It’s interesting the many letters of support Lauren got asking for a light sentence when it seemed no one else who was convicted got that same support 

Clare Bronfman deserves her prison sentence as Keith probably wouldn’t have been able to do as much harm as he did for as long as he did without the many millions she gave him

[kathe5133]

Wow.  Nancy is messed up.  Although I can admit people can be coerced and manipulated into such an organization and not see it coming.  I don't believe "I'd never fall for that....", but.  Look at Bonnie.  All in and then she wasn't.  Sarah.  All in and then she wasn't.  Even Mark.  Well into what I've heard is his second cult and then he wasn't.  No matter how badly someone manipulates us, I believe that some people have a core of decency that only allows them to go so far and then they walk away.  No such core in Lauren, Nancy, and the pack of dancing weirdos outside of Keith's prison.  Sarah, please, please don't throw back in with Lauren.  Make your peace and get your closure.  She may have been your best friend, but you were never hers.  She's showed you who she is.  Listen and walk wide around her!

[Rlb8031]

4 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I did find it interesting that he groomed Daniela but waited until she was 18 but chose not for Camila.  It makes me wonder if someone warned him not to mess with underage girls so he changed his MO.  Or was there something irresistible in Keith's mind that he threw out caution. 

I wonder if this was about timing. The Times Union (Albany paper), ran a story years before the feds arrested Keith about his involvement with underage girls early on in (or maybe before?) ESP times. He had been accused of taking advantage of teen girls and had that reputation, although he claimed a lot of it was misunderstandings. I wonder if the timing were such that he knew he had to remain above board with Dani, but by the time Camilla came around it was several years later, he was already sleeping with Dani and the older sister and thought that he could fly under the radar with Camilla. What's crazy is that while it was clear there was jealousy between the women in that inner circle, none of them said "wow, he's sleeping with a kid" and used that as a line in the sand.

[Rlb8031]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Who is the black woman who was with Nicki Clyne supporting Keith? She looked familiar, is she an actress?

No. Her name is Michelle Hachette. She is a member of DOS, one of Allison Mack's original slaves and one of the women who is steadfastly and somewhat publicly, still supportive of Keith and DOS. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole you can read her affidavit in support of Keith's defense here. She used to run a group to teach kids about healthy eating, but it appears that she walked away from that in 2015 to join up with Keith and his band of merry sister wives. She appeared in part one of the series, but pre-DOS, she was a completely different looking woman.

[FozzyBear]

10 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Keith even did a number on his lawyer, notice he said "Keith said I am resourceful and talented and he is putting his faith in me". I look at Keith and I see a manipulative little man, but he really does have a knack for getting people to do what he wants.

Still watching because I keep cringing and have to pause it. How convenient now Nancy is worried about her parents because she can use them to help her case for not going to jail.

Even when Nancy was crying she was careful how she worded things to not implicate herself more. I do believe she knew most of what was going on.

I’m with you. I don’t believe Nancy at all. I think she’s just as crazy as Keith but maybe a bit better at reading the room. She’s trying to stay out of jail. I don’t sense any real remorse for anyone but herself. Even when her youngest daughter was talking about how bad things were for her because she didn’t want to sleep with Keith, I doubted Nancys tears. Nancy’s only cares about the bad things happening to her. In my opinion, what Nancy didn’t know, she didn’t know on purpose. I can easily imagine her and Keith having tacit agreements about things she shouldn’t “know” for legal reasons. Didn’t mean she didn’t actually know or know enough. NXIVM was making her rich. She wasn’t going to do shit as long as the paychecks kept coming. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by FozzyBear

[Pop Tart]

I do think Nancy is in denial and knew more than she'll ever admit (even to herself). Her description at the end of how this can happen, by making one choice and then another and then another, each one that pushes your moral and ethical boundaries, you get sucked in. It's a kind of a sunk-cost situation. You've already gone this far, given up this much, conceded so many things, because you think there's a big payout coming. For Nancy, it was literally money. For the rest? success? Happiness? Something they think they're going to find if they just keep at it.

That's what Keith counted on and that's how he operated. He'd push the women beyond a personal boundary and if they went with it, he'd move to the next boundary. As much as he looks like a creepy little dweeb, he is people smart. When he knew he'd got close to a firm line with someone, he'd back off a little bit and start gaslighting them about their narcissism or weaken their resolve in other ways (often punitive, by withholding affection or attention or in the case of Danielle, extreme isolation). Then he'd come back at them and see if they'd give in. If they did give in, then it was on to the next boundary.

With someone like Keith, this isn't some manipulation ability he brought out now and again to have sex or whatever. This is his constant state. He is always looking for the weakness and getting his digs in. That recorded conversation when he asks Allison what was key for her when she got the brand. She responds with what was meaningful for her and he turns it around to call her a narcissist because he meant the question more generally, for all the women. It's a small moment and there's no reason he has to make her squirm there, but he does. Because that's who he is 100% of the time.

The other thing that struck me is now all the other members have to "strengthen their character" "be more disciplined" or have a consequence. He never does any of that. Because, why? He's already ascended to a higher plane of being? 

[DanaK]

38 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I do think Nancy is in denial and knew more than she'll ever admit (even to herself).

I noted that earlier and you can see her starting to admit and accept at least some of it towards the end as she was talking to the therapist. The filmmaker indicated in an interview that she interviewed Nancy over a couple of years, so you can see the progression, though halting, towards admitting that things weren’t all that they seemed. But she’s going to have to keep working on it and continue with therapy and hopefully she can do it in jail. Does she deserve redemption? Maybe, I’m not sure since she was in charge. But she was the first to turn against Keith and testified against him, which was way more than Clare Bronfman ever did

[Pop Tart]

3 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I noted that earlier and you can see her starting to admit and accept at least some of it towards the end as she was talking to the therapist. The filmmaker indicated in an interview that she interviewed Nancy over a couple of years, so you can see the progression, though halting, towards admitting that things weren’t all that they seemed. But she’s going to have to keep working on it and continue with therapy and hopefully she can do it in jail. Does she deserve redemption? Maybe, I’m not sure since she was in charge. But she was the first to turn against Keith and testified against him, which was way more than Clare Bronfman ever did

I mostly believe that Nancy didn't realize the extent of what Keith had going on with the women and the fully abusive nature of it all. But she certainly knew bad things about him that she let slide and she had some awareness that he was sexually involved with a number of the women - her mention of having to be Human Resources and handle things when they went sour.

But more interesting to me is Nancy's motivations in regards to the money-making aspect of the whole shebang. Does she genuinely think they were doing good work and thus the costly classes where worth it? Or was she using her expertise in neuro linguistic programming to make this a profitable enterprise that would make her rich and she didn't care about the rest? 

Weirdly her still being in denial about how abusive it all was? Kind of makes me believe her a bit that she thought they were doing good? I think if she were just in it to rip people off, she would be throwing Keith under every and all buses. She wouldn't have as much confusion about just how evil he is. So it reads, to me, like she really did think/hope they were doing some good. And she was making money too.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I did find it interesting that he groomed Daniela but waited until she was 18 but chose not for Camila.  It makes me wonder if someone warned him not to mess with underage girls so he changed his MO.  Or was there something irresistible in Keith's mind that he threw out caution. 

I wonder if all the power was really going to his head and he was getting more reckless. He'd gotten away with so much. Plus, as Lauren said, he mostly liked sex when ht was a way of humiliating someone else, so if he'd already had the girl he waited for until she was 18, how much better to be abusing the girl who was even more of a child when he started grooming her and still very much a minor. All while the parents are helping him.

10 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I'm wondering if she still believes Keith's "was the child raped by an adult truly victimized by that adult if they don't realize they're victims?  Or is it society telling them they're victims that really messes them up?" thought exercise--or whatever Nancy called it.

Yeah, my god, how do you NOT see the danger in that statement?

4 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

I’m with you. I don’t believe Nancy at all. I think she’s just as crazy as Keith but maybe a bit better at reading the room. She’s trying to stay out of jail. I don’t sense any real remorse for anyone but herself. Even when her youngest daughter was talking about how bad things were for her because she didn’t want to sleep with Keith, I doubted Nancys tears. Nancy’s only cares about the bad things happening to her. In my opinion, what Nancy didn’t know, she didn’t know on purpose. I can easily imagine her and Keith having tacit agreements about things she shouldn’t “know” for legal reasons. Didn’t mean she didn’t actually know or know enough. NXIVM was making her rich. She wasn’t going to do shit as long as the paychecks kept coming. 

I wonder if she also resented the other women since Keith was quickly done with her. Don't know if I'd apply that to her actual daughter, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had a lot of resentment against all those young tiny thin women who came and went while she was always there to be the drudge.

But boy does that man hate women. He must have loved having Nancy cook him breakfast (why?!) while he knew the other woman was lying in her own shit.

[DanaK]

Variety talks to the filmmaker. She breaks down Nancy’s finale reveal and how prison has changed her https://variety.com/video/the-vow-nancy-salzman/

Some especially interesting stuff on Lauren

[DanaK]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But boy does that man hate women. He must have loved having Nancy cook him breakfast (why?!) while he knew the other woman was lying in her own shit.

My guess is to control her and to mess with her head

[izabella]

One of the worst things about that breakfast story is that Pam wasn't just a random woman in the cult.  She was his longest partner, his biggest partner in crime when it came to grooming those young girls, and his partner in crime in all ways for decades.  And he left his cancer-stricken life partner to die in a soiled bed like she was rotting leftovers in the back of the fridge.

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, izabella said:

One of the worst things about that breakfast story is that Pam wasn't just a random woman in the cult.  She was his longest partner, his biggest partner in crime when it came to grooming those young girls, and his partner in crime in all ways for decades.  And he left his cancer-stricken life partner to die in a soiled bed like she was rotting leftovers in the back of the fridge.

Exactly. And that was just an extension of what he'd done to her the whole time, getting her dependent on her so he could abuse and humiliate her - and get other people to help.

[veronicamers]

47 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Variety talks to the filmmaker. She breaks down Nancy’s finale reveal and how prison has changed her https://variety.com/video/the-vow-nancy-salzman/

Some especially interesting stuff on Lauren

Thank you for sharing that! I find myself feeling a lot more empathetic towards Lauren after watching this second season of The Vow than I expected to. Yes, she did terrible things. But she was the only one (I think) of the group charged with crimes that testified against Keith and admitted on the stand to doing those terrible things. I'm sure it helped in her sentencing. She was horribly manipulated by Keith and seems remorseful for the actions she took to try to get back in his good graces. He really did a number on her, promising he'd have a child with her for all those years. 

[izabella]

I wanted to feel more sympathetic to Lauren since she got no jail time for her crimes, and I wanted to feel better about her serving no jail time, but I don't.  I really didn't end up more sympathetic.  I still think she should have done jail time for at least the 2 full years she kept Daniella in that room in the dark and sleeping on a mat on the floor with no human contact.  Also, she chose Keith over having a child.  She chose having Keith's baby over having a child.   Keith was her priority, not having a child.

[kathe5133]

Yeah.  I've no sympathy for Lauren.  Perhaps since she has no jail time she can step up and care for her grandparents in Nancy's absence.  That would be a nice gesture.  Let's see if she steps up.

[DanaK]

13 minutes ago, kathe5133 said:

Yeah.  I've no sympathy for Lauren.  Perhaps since she has no jail time she can step up and care for her grandparents in Nancy's absence.  That would be a nice gesture.  Let's see if she steps up.

Nancy’s dad died and her mom is now in assisted living. Hopefully Lauren will visit her

[kathe5133]

3 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Nancy’s dad died and her mom is now in assisted living. Hopefully Lauren will visit her

Awww.  Nancy's mom seemed nice, but her dad did seem pretty sick.  I guess he's at peace now.  I hope her mother is doing well.  

[JD5166]

No wonder sara’s acting career never took off, she is a horrible fake crier-I don’t see any tears there “Sara Sobs” I don’t think Lauren really wants anything to do with you. I can’t take think of anything I’d want to listen to less than her and Nippy talk about themselves. 

Those hangers on are completely insane. I actually found Nancy pretty sympathetic, but I still have a hard time believing NONE of these nitwits saw what was going on right in front of them. I am sorry, kissing everyone on the lips is just an invasion of personal space, especially when you’re doing that with EVERYONE. EW. The second I saw him doing that I would’ve run for the door. I am not someone who accepts help easily from others unless it’s absolutely necessary, call it a flaw but at least I know I would NEVER find myself in a cult....not ever! 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, JD5166 said:

Those hangers on are completely insane.

I thought it was interesting when the film makers were on the Zoom call with them, and told them they were going to have to seek something else to find meaning, and they would also need to find jobs and places to live.  It was so bizarre they just silently stared at her, as though she was speaking in another language.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, JD5166 said:

Those hangers on are completely insane. I actually found Nancy pretty sympathetic, but I still have a hard time believing NONE of these nitwits saw what was going on right in front of them. I am sorry, kissing everyone on the lips is just an invasion of personal space, especially when you’re doing that with EVERYONE. EW. 

Keith would have better as a one-off character on Seinfeld. "The Mouth Kisser."

[DanaK]

22 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

No. Her name is Michelle Hachette. She is a member of DOS, one of Allison Mack's original slaves and one of the women who is steadfastly and somewhat publicly, still supportive of Keith and DOS. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole you can read her affidavit in support of Keith's defense here. She used to run a group to teach kids about healthy eating, but it appears that she walked away from that in 2015 to join up with Keith and his band of merry sister wives. She appeared in part one of the series, but pre-DOS, she was a completely different looking woman.

Does she really believe that affidavit was a positive thing for Keith’ defense? 

[EtheltoTillie]

Yeah those affidavits. When they were reading aloud from them in the documentary they sounded so triumphant, as if they were helpful, but it was so delusional!  

[luckyroll3]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:12 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

Those nutty supporters stand outside Raniere’s prison and signal to him with strobe lights and they do dances.  Are they using Morse code?  

I also was trying to figure out how they were "communicating" with Keith. It definitely was not morse code. They were just waving the phone flashlight around. At one point it looked like they were maybe drawing letters, but IDK. I'm sure Keith in all of his brilliance devised a new secret code for them to use.

On 11/22/2022 at 12:51 AM, ninjago said:

Nicki knew the Camila testimony would be damaging.  Does that mean she knew about his pedophilia and child porn?  Her objections were that the trial wasn’t fair, and she believed DOS was a choice, etc. but I wanted them to ask her how she continued to support him with the pedophilia accusations?  Because his lawyer might be a creep, but he was right: financial charges and even some coercive adult sex can maybe be spun, but once you’re a child pornographer and rapist no one is listening to you anymore.

That scene was very interesting. Why would she be so worried about Camila's testimony if according to her [Nicki] Keith has done nothing wrong. It was also pretty telling that for all the innocence she kept proclaiming for him and DOS that she was very wary about dealing with the prosecutors cause she had to protect herself. I personally am still shocked that she wasn't charged with anything as she was right in the thick of it with Alison, Lauren, and other others. And her shock when her lawyers dropped her for not listening to them. Lol! Sweetie, your lawyer's job is to keep you out of jail; when you keep doing stuff that make it more likely that you will end up in jail, they cut you as a client. She's a completely fucking mess.

Me during all of Nancy's crying/sobbing scenes:

I think Nancy is so full of shit!

22 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

I’m with you. I don’t believe Nancy at all. I think she’s just as crazy as Keith but maybe a bit better at reading the room. She’s trying to stay out of jail. I don’t sense any real remorse for anyone but herself. Even when her youngest daughter was talking about how bad things were for her because she didn’t want to sleep with Keith, I doubted Nancys tears. Nancy’s only cares about the bad things happening to her. In my opinion, what Nancy didn’t know, she didn’t know on purpose. I can easily imitative her and Keith having tacit agreements about things she shouldn’t “know” for legal reasons. Didn’t mean she didn’t actually know or know enough. NXIVM was making her rich. She wasn’t going to do shit as long as the paychecks kept coming. 

All of this!!!! She knew what was going on, she just didn't care. Like the judge said, she was all too happy to be second in command. The older blonde who was also a former NXIVM member said something similar as well, that Nancy's position gave her the adoration and power she craved and Keith was counting on that.

She also contradicted herself because earlier in the season she said she didn't know about any of the sex stuff or that Lauren was involved with Keith. This episode, she revealed that she knew about both! And she only cared about having to deal with the sex stuff once she realized that Lauren was one of the women. How that wasn't a turning point for her is beyond concerning.

And her challenging the therapist's explanation that the curriculum was built to help facilitate all the other shit was mind boggling. Every single part of that curriculum is designed intentionally to get people to ignore crossed boundaries and to ignore their inner voice telling them to get the fuck out. And she herself told us that Keith dictated every single lesson in the curriculum to her AND made her practice the delivery. That makes all of it suspect. She's desperately trying to save her credibility, but that shit's long gone. 

I'm sad they didn't talk more about the actual RICO charges. I wanted to know about the hidden cash in shoe boxes and wire fraud and all of that stuff.

[Rlb8031]

47 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

Her objections were that the trial wasn’t fair, and she believed DOS was a choice, etc. but I wanted them to ask her how she continued to support him with the pedophilia accusations?

The timeline of all of this is wonky. The initial Times Union article about Keith having relationships with underage girls was published in 2012. That article cited a young woman whose mom worked for Keith at his MLM and who accused Keith, Pam Caffriz, Kristen Keefee and others of participating in her grooming which led to Keith sexually abusing her beginning in 1990. She reported this to the state police in 1993. That article would have been published only a few years before Daniella. In the TU article there were at least three young girls (12-16), who Keith had contact with when he was in his 20's. So, the stories about him liking young girls were certainly public well before 2014-17 period when the Daniella and Camilla abuse occurred.

The Times Union isn't some hick publication. It's the major newspaper in the state's capital, and it gets read by every local as well as all of the state legislators and their staffs. This would have been COMMON knowledge in the region.

I think this comes back to the fact that they now use Keith's morality scale and in their minds this isn't abuse because the girls were willing participants at the time.

[izabella]

41 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

I think this comes back to the fact that they now use Keith's morality scale and in their minds this isn't abuse because the girls were willing participants at the time.

And their minds refuse to admit that the girls were "willing" only because they were groomed.

[sistermagpie]

59 minutes ago, izabella said:

And their minds refuse to admit that the girls were "willing" only because they were groomed.

By themselves!

[TexasGal]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:54 PM, FozzyBear said:

One thing they keep touching on but not really getting into that I wish they would more is the weight obsession. 

That video of Keith, sitting all greasy looking with a pot belly, telling an already thin woman she needed to lose weight.  Um, no thank you.  

Between the delivery of the affidavit to the prosecutor that was going to be "game changing" and then Nikki crying because her lawyer fired her as a client - I was laughing my butt off.

[ninjago]

Did Keith poison Pam?  I find that a very believable accusation. Was she getting treatment for her cancer?  It sounded like she was just laying in a bed dying.

[izabella]

6 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

The timeline of all of this is wonky. The initial Times Union article about Keith having relationships with underage girls was published in 2012.

This also blows up Nancy's lie that she didn't know Keith was a pedophile and grooming the girls all along.  She knew.  Everyone who read that article knew in 2012, if not sooner.  AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT AND CONTINUED TO MAKE MONEY OFF IT.  And that includes "we didn't do anything bad!" Sarah and Mark. 

But we don't need that for proof.  The NYT article on Nancy has plenty that was not in The Vow about what Nancy did to Keith's rape victims, and that she clearly KNEW what was happening as it was happening and not from the trial.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/nyregion/nancy-salzman-nxivm-sex-cult.html

Quote

A recent amended civil suit filed in federal court in Brooklyn by ex-Nxivm members against Mr. Raniere, Ms. Salzman and others now includes a claim by Daniela’s sister, identified as Camila, who said that Mr. Raniere “forcibly raped” her twice. Prosecutors said during Mr. Raniere’s trial that he started having sex with Camila when she was 15.

After those incidents, the suit says, “Salzman added a new segment to the Jness curriculum (which Camila was required to attend), teaching that when men sense that their partner is trying to leave them, they rape them as a natural way of marking their territory.”

Ms. Nevares said in her letter that Mr. Raniere also sexually assaulted her.

“The following morning, Salzman normalized the assault after she asked about my time with the Vanguard, saying the traumatized state I was in was due to his ‘energy,’” Ms. Nevares wrote. “She insisted that I was lucky that he had singled me out.”

Edited November 23, 2022 by izabella

[sadie]

I don’t believe Nancy for one minute, she admits she was running interference and was the fixer for all of Keith’s women problems, but then on the other hand says she just thought they were doing good work. I don’t know how her ethics got around the fact that she knew Keith was sleeping with students, a lot of them, and it was problematic enough that she was having to go in and do constant damage control.

whoever it was that said Nancy liked being revered, and I believe she really liked the money, hit the nail on the head. And when she was sentenced you could see it hit her that all of her excuses didn’t buy her what she thought they would. All the crying she did didn’t seem at all like it was for any of Keith victims, it was for herself.

His loyal following reminds me of some young people I know who want to feel very self-important and feel like they are fighting for some noble cause, when really they’re just diluted mini Narcissists and they found their leader in Kieth. It will be interesting to see how many years they will stick with this whole free Keith thing before they realize they’re wasting their lives and getting nothing but older.

this episode really struck me with a human damage that Keith and Nancy left behind them. I very much enjoyed this series. 

[blixie]

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 I did find it interesting that he groomed Daniela but waited until she was 18 but chose not for Camila.  It makes me wonder if someone warned him not to mess with underage girls so he changed his MO. 

But he changed it for the worse more legally problematic? Like Daniela first waiting til she was legal, and she rebelled. If anything I think he saw waiting as the mistake, he could exert more control over the mind of 15 year old so she'd NEVER turn against him if he started abusing her earlier, and in deed she didn't turn on him until the fat bird was singing.

But not Nikki and the Nexium five they are LIT. It was so ouch to hear the reporter explaining to them how the only story to tell is about them  recovering and regaining a life from this sad little troll man. They legitimately looked so confused, she's saying words, but what do they MEAN? Damn.

I am not really sure what the reporters point was, like texts are evidence honey, and if Camilla wouldn't testify they really didn't have a lot of options other than to go into all of that.

Not sure what to make of Nancy still, I agree she knew everything and plowed on anyway, and it was so telling that she got angry when the Judge.....judged her. LOL. C'mon Keith and Nancy, stopping being weak victims, work your concepts, be more ethical. But also I it feels like she is at least engaging in the process of accountability. Her mom did make me ruefully laugh when said the most passive aggressive mom thing: I never liked him. Nothing like an I told ya so from your 90 something mother, if the judge heard that maybe he'd have given her home confinement with mom.

[blixie]

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No such core in Lauren, Nancy, and the pack of dancing weirdos outside of Keith's prison. 

The really sad part about Nikki and the other woman is that they weren't particularly high up on Keith's list. I think that's possibly also a part of why they are supporting him so hard now, they rise in his estimation in ways they never could when everything was going Vanguaurds way. The men pretty clearly believe the they are all lying ass liars defense from Keith, when Nikki is like yeah it all happened you're just trying to make us incredibly empowered 95 lb child women into pathetic victims.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, blixie said:

The really sad part about Nikki and the other woman is that they weren't particularly high up on Keith's list. I think that's possibly also a part of why they are supporting him so hard now, they rise in his estimation in ways they never could when everything was going Vanguaurds way. The men pretty clearly believe the they are all lying ass liars defense from Keith, when Nikki is like yeah it all happened you're just trying to make us incredibly empowered 95 lb child women into pathetic victims.

A friend of mine is convinced that the black woman who always jumps in to say things like "I'm not going to say if I have a brand/was sleeping with him" did not have a brand and was not sleeping with him because he wasn't her type and she's trying to be more important. So weird.

Btw, on The L Word this week a character has a date with someone her friend thinks is full of red flags. She says, "Her mentor is in jail, but she's trying to get him out." The friend says, "Is it Keith Raniere?"

And it turns out...yes.

[luckyroll3]

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Btw, on The L Word this week a character has a date with someone her friend thinks is full of red flags. She says, "Her mentor is in jail, but she's trying to get him out." The friend says, "Is it Keith Raniere?"

And it turns out...yes.

I laughed so hard when the date said she loved playing volleyball, then pitched ESP a few minutes later! 

[Pi237]

I really felt that Nancy wasn't crying because Keith hurt her daughter, but more so that he chose her daughter over her while she gave up the chance to ever have a relationship with another man. It was telling when she was sobbing on the phone with her daughter, and her daughter seemed unaffected by it, just calmly clarifying that she didn't want food. And that life sized old lady picture on her wall was creepy as hell! What was that?!?

Keith was a slimy, smelly troll for decades, and still he had All these girls and women competing for his attention. Its insane to me. He had zero charisma or charm. His 'flirting' was painful to watch. Ill Never get it. Telling already thin people to lose more weight, and no one said 'Dude-have you looked in the mirror lately?!'  'Take a bath much?'.

This organization ran for years and years. What did all these people do all day besides blow Keith and feed him breakfast?   

I wouldn't even have known about the money if it wasn't mentioned here. That shouldve been explored more. 

So many horrible parents on this series. Those kids never stood a chance.

[izabella]

40 minutes ago, Pi237 said:

And that life sized old lady picture on her wall was creepy as hell! What was that?!?

That truly was creepy, and we never got any explanation for it.  The old lady would just kinda loom over Nancy's shoulder, or she'd walk past it, as though it was art.  Was it supposed to be art?  Was it supposed to be creepy?

Edited December 2, 2022 by izabella

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, Pi237 said:

And that life sized old lady picture on her wall was creepy as hell! What was that?!?

Wasn't it actually a statue? Which is even creepier lol. 

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I wouldn't even have known about the money if it wasn't mentioned here. That shouldve been explored more. 

Seriously. Aren't money related crimes what all of them outside of Keith were convicted of? It's annoying they didn't even get into that at all.

[Rlb8031]

14 hours ago, Pi237 said:

This organization ran for years and years. What did all these people do all day besides blow Keith and feed him breakfast?   

I wouldn't even have known about the money if it wasn't mentioned here. That shouldve been explored more. 

So many horrible parents on this series. Those kids never stood a chance.

They staffed all of the lower level classes and served as the administrative workforce for programming. It takes a lot to run multi-day programs from a logistics perspective and these women (and men) served as free/ low-cost labor for those efforts

[purist]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:04 PM, Pi237 said:

And that life sized old lady picture on her wall was creepy as hell! What was that?!?

@Joe Reid wrote an excellent and pretty funny piece on this for Primetimer. (He doesn't have any answers as to what it is.)

[pigs-in-space]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:58 PM, kathe5133 said:

Awww.  Nancy's mom seemed nice, but her dad did seem pretty sick.  I guess he's at peace now.  I hope her mother is doing well.  

Nancy did claim her mother called her “her little dummy” as a kid because she was dyslexic. So maybe still some dysfunction there.