S01.E08: These Are His Revolutions

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Revolution has finally come. As Layton leads the lower classes forward in armed rebellion, Melanie's house of cards collapses.

Airing Sunday, July 5, 2020.

 

[AnimeMania]

What a "Bloody Mess" this show has turned into. It could have been great if this show was a study of Capitalism instead of Sensationalism.

[Chaos Theory]

I am really enjoying this show.  Probably more then I thought I would considering I hated the movie.   I thought the battle scene was really well done and all the moments leading up to it.   Ruth and Melanie’s scene was especially well done.   I also really liked the confrontation with the Brakeman in third class when they were finally told that there was no Mr. Wilford.    So everyone knows now and it’s a battle between first who has all the guns and third and the tail who have the numbers.    
 

I am just glad Till survived the battle.

[formerlyfreedom]

I was also glad to see Till survived. Javi was such a dumbass.

I did think it was a bit of a stretch that Layton would trust LJ, but then I figure some handwavium is probably appropriate there - I really need to see that girl get her due, along with her idiot parents.

Finding out that Strong Boy can suddenly speak - and not just speak but MANDARIN? What the heck are they playing over the sound system in the drawers???

So many questions, and I'm pretty sure that in exactly one week, I'm going to have plenty more.

[ParadoxLost]

When Layton was giving his motivational speech in the Tail. I realized that they hadn't really sold me on the idea that Till had seen enough and learned enough to be fully on the Tail's side.   I was fully expecting her to slam the door on Layton and the Tail in a futile hope she could reason with someone from first.  Not because I don't think she's on the Tail's side in this, she is.  I just don't think its believable that putting Layton in a drawer and torturing Josie was enough that she's going along so easily with a bloodbath being the only option left.

34 minutes ago, saoirse said:

Finding out that Strong Boy can suddenly speak - and not just speak but MANDARIN? What the heck are they playing over the sound system in the drawers???

Seems like Melanie and cohorts (?) concocted some way to use the drawers to rehabilitate health issues and educate the sleepers.  So the kids that got internships and got drawered may actually be having an unconventional internship aimed at preserving the future of the train.

[rmontro]

Wow, next week is the two hour finale of Snowpiercer, 1001 cars long (for now).  Is there supposed to be a second season for this, or was it designed as a one off?  Because it looks like things are really coming to a head.  

They did a really good job of showing the brutality of the revolution.  Complete with planned executions apparently.  Seems like a dumb idea to execute Melanie since she's the one who knows the train best.  

I guess we now know what really happened to Mr. Wilford, unless this is some sort of red herring.  Funny how so many people think so highly of him when it sounds like he was a pretty superficial person. 

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I guess we now know what really happened to Mr. Wilford, unless this is some sort of red herring. 

No body, no death.  TV rule.  If he is indeed still around, I nominate Michael Emerson for the role.  He will put Ruth and LJ in their places. 

So the Tailies went full on Braveheart on the Jackboots.  How many of those guys were there?  That was a righteous bloodbath.  And I'm surprised that Till has more combat skills than any of them. 

Layton needs a shower now.

LJ is a moron, sitting there thinking that everything is cool because she's the center of attention.  She has no clue that she is in a fight for her life.

They just glossed over a point about the train when the kid was up in the engine, listening to the other engineers.  Why is the train slowing down revolution after revolution?  This does not bode well for the passengers.

Till has got some 'splainin' to do to her girlfriend.  That might not end well for one of them.

Why was Melanie's cabin unlocked?

[AnimeMania]

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

Wow, next week is the two hour finale of Snowpiercer, 1001 cars long (for now).  Is there supposed to be a second season for this, or was it designed as a one off?  Because it looks like things are really coming to a head.  

Don't read the episode titles for next week, major spoilers.

[Dminches]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Don't read the episode titles for next week, major spoilers.

So were the coming attractions, not that what they showed was unexpected.

[AryasMum]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

Wow, next week is the two hour finale of Snowpiercer, 1001 cars long (for now).  Is there supposed to be a second season for this, or was it designed as a one off?  Because it looks like things are really coming to a head.  

They did a really good job of showing the brutality of the revolution.  Complete with planned executions apparently.  Seems like a dumb idea to execute Melanie since she's the one who knows the train best.  

I guess we now know what really happened to Mr. Wilford, unless this is some sort of red herring.  Funny how so many people think so highly of him when it sounds like he was a pretty superficial person. 

I’m beginning to think Wilford was another Bernie Madoff. Using people’s money for nefarious purposes, and Melanie actually created the entire train system. She once said that she would have done things more equitably, so Wildord is the one who created the caste system.  At least this is my impression so far.
 

I also think that all three engineers made the decision to either drawer or de-train Wilford, and Javi was just trying to cover his ass.   Javi has shown signs of jealousy that Melanie and the other guy get to have sex, and he also voiced his displeasure at Melanie being in charge. 
 

I was hoping Melanie and Layton would end up on the same team.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend. 
 

I hate that Layton trusted sadistic murderer LJ, and that he allowed LJ to interact with innocent Miles. I wish they had chosen to make that character (LJ) the run of the mill asshole rich kid, but I guess she was Layton’s only connection into first class. Plus, he knew she and her parents were amoral people who only care about their own welfare, so more easily manipulated with no concern about a bloodbath. 

[iMonrey]

This week had the makings of a great episode, and in fact for the first 10 minutes I found myself quite engaged and impressed with it. But then, like much of the season, it sort of fell apart under the weight of sloppy writing. The whole big speech Layton gave in the tail just felt corny and unnecessary. And it occurred to me that the show hasn't really done a good job of establishing enough of these tertiary tail characters for me to care what happens to any of them. Maybe if they focused on that more in the early episodes instead of that stupid murder mystery subplot, this episode would have felt more earned.

Why is it that Layton took over a full day to recover from the drawer after being in it only about a day, while these other taillees have been in much longer and seemed just fine after a few minutes?

If they execute Melanie, who the hell do they think is going to keep the train running? Now they know she designed the damn thing and there's no Wilford. They kind of need her whether they want to or not.

I'm not really into big action scenes and the fighting was hard for me to follow because I couldn't really tell half the time which side was which once they really got into it. Again - the lack of developing a lot of the minor characters really diminished the impact of these scenes. At one point Grey had some Asian woman in his clutches to fend off Layton and all I could think was "Who the hell is that?"

[BingeyKohan]

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This week had the makings of a great episode, and in fact for the first 10 minutes I found myself quite engaged and impressed with it. But then, like much of the season, it sort of fell apart under the weight of sloppy writing. The whole big speech Layton gave in the tail just felt corny and unnecessary. And it occurred to me that the show hasn't really done a good job of establishing enough of these tertiary tail characters for me to care what happens to any of them. Maybe if they focused on that more in the early episodes instead of that stupid murder mystery subplot, this episode would have felt more earned.

I remain very involved with this show but totally agree with you at the same time. To me the Tail section is occupied by a lot of middle aged white men, that one older woman with a frizzy gray bob haircut, and the Black woman who helped the electrician cut the wires. I should probably have more ways to distinguish them by this point than that?

I couldn't decide how I felt about Melanie just immediately caving and telling Ruth the whole story. if she was going to try and cut a deal or work some angle to her advantage I can't see Melanie trying to do it through Ruth who seems a little spineless, generally. I think that mostly was just to give Alison Wright something of a powerhouse scene. Though I hope this spurs Ruth to be a full-on villain next season - more like the Tilda Swinton character from the movie, but less addled-seeming. So far Ruth is not that different from Martha in The Americans - a duped woman realizing she was lied to. Only difference is Alison Wright uses her real accent here.

[blackwing]

I found this episode a little disturbing considering the real world parallels - people deciding that they no longer need to respect law and order and just take matters into their own hands.  A homicide detective deciding he no longer has to respect the law.  A policeman deciding she no longer has to respect the law.  To me it's not revolution.  It's anarchy.

I've spent all season trying to figure out the difference between the Brakemen and the Jackboots.  I guess the Brakemen (why are they called brakemen, they don't seem to apply brakes to the train) are the policemen / security guards while the Jackboots are kind of like the army?  I find it inconceivable that Roche and the brakemen would just stand aside.  And I was really confused by Commander Grey...  he was shown colluding with the hateful Folgers and had Melanie arrested so they could take control of the train, but then when he hears of a Tailee uprising, he then decides that he's going to maintain order 

22 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I remain very involved with this show but totally agree with you at the same time. To me the Tail section is occupied by a lot of middle aged white men, that one older woman with a frizzy gray bob haircut, and the Black woman who helped the electrician cut the wires. I should probably have more ways to distinguish them by this point than that?

Layton mentioned that they had 400 soldiers.  I believe that is the entire Tail since I could have sworn they established that there were 1,700 Third Class and we previously were told that there were 2,100 Third and Tail combined.  So ALL of these 400 are suddenly trained to fight?  Including the children, the old woman who spoke Spanish, the other old men?  And Astrid?  I find it completely inconceivable that the Tailees, who live mostly in cramped and dark quarters, would have any kind of training at all.  Or that they would even be strong and fit enough to battle against an elite military squadron of soldiers.  It'd be like in Ancient Rome if the slaves thrown into the gladiatorial arena, naked or dressed in a thin white shift and given a rusty sword, were up against a legion of battle-hardened Roman soldiers who are bigger and stronger and better armed.  So utterly ridiculous.

Where would the Tailees even come up with that spear gun machine?  Was that something that was already made and they just commandeered it?  It appeared to only be able to shoot spears straight.  Why didn't the soldiers just hug the walls of the corridor out of aim of the machine and then advance and kill them all?

I want the rest of First Class to realise what the Hateful Folgers have done and kill all three of them themselves.

So there's no Mr. Wilford.  Who the hell cares?!?!?  Everyone is still alive, thanks to Melanie and English Engineer.

We didn't see Jinju again since Till effectively dumped her.  I do hope Jinju survives.  I've been wondering why Jinju lives in a sumptuous cabin with a huge bed and big bright windows, while Melanie lives in what looks like a cabin full of bunks.  Didn't we see Melanie with a roommate earlier this season?  I could have sworn we saw her go into the bathroom, and then come out and ask someone to "zip me up".  Then she put on her blue coat. 

And just because Mr. Wilford wasn't in the Engine when Miles let Lilah Jr in, why were they so convinced he was not on the train?  A man would presumably sleep, what if he was sleeping in another cabin?  Why was Melanie's cabin the only possible place for Wilford to be?  Or what if he was simply just taking a dump? 

This show has become infuriating.  Still not sure if I'm going to come back for Season 2, but I know one thing for certain.  If Jennifer Connelly bites it, I am for sure out.

 

[AnimeMania]

45 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I find it inconceivable that Roche and the brakemen would just stand aside.

Well, all of the Brakemen live in 3rd and 3rd sided with the Tailies. I think there was a fear for their and their families' safety.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

A homicide detective deciding he no longer has to respect the law.  A policeman deciding she no longer has to respect the law.

They see it as fighting an unjust law - just because something is legal doesn't make it right. As Layton put it last episode, first class has a bowling alley. There's enough space on the train that the tail doesn't have to be crammed in together the way they are, starving and filthy and almost certainly dying off because of their conditions.

Also, Layton DID respect the law when he solved the murder case, and all he got for his troubles was "drawered"/imprisoned for figuring out Melanie's secret (and I'm not sure how legal that is; she did it secretly so my guess is it's not something she was supposed to do). Melanie quite literally let that little psychopath LJ get away with murder. LJ wasn't respecting the law when she was having people killed and dismembered, and she suffered no consequences for it. The law only works for a few on the train. It's REALLY a trip watching this in summer 2020.

[iMonrey]

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Where would the Tailees even come up with that spear gun machine? 

I spent most of the episode thinking the Brakemen and/or Jackboots were the ones operating the spear gun machine. It wasn't until the very end when I realized it was the rebels. So again, this episode suffered from a lack of distinct character development. It feels like everyone in the tail is an extra except Layton and Josie (who is now dead) and Miles (who is no longer in the tail). I know who Till and Roche are and that guy Till was partnered with but all the other Brakemen are extras too.

Quote

 Didn't we see Melanie with a roommate earlier this season?  I could have sworn we saw her go into the bathroom, and then come out and ask someone to "zip me up".  Then she put on her blue coat. 

That was Knox, the engineer she's sleeping with.

[Dminches]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

So there's no Mr. Wilford.  Who the hell cares?!?!?  Everyone is still alive, thanks to Melanie and English Engineer.

 

That is a great point.  The Tailees were revolting when they thought there was a Mr. Wilford so they don't care.  The first class people seem to have it pretty good and they are still alive so why would they care?  And since when would all these people be happy that there was effectively a dictator (Mr. W) in charge? 

 

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, Dminches said:

And since when would all these people be happy that there was effectively a dictator (Mr. W) in charge? 

Ruth in particular seems to think they need him to cling on to the way she does, but I haven’t seen much evidence of that. As you say, the tail only cares who is in charge so they know who to fight, and how to leverage the info - they don’t care about Wilford as a person. First class only cares because they want to appeal to the person in charge about their petty grievances - who it is doesn’t matter to them either.

Ruth seems to have elevated him to Godlike status (didn’t she cross herself in the shape of a W?) but I think she’s the only one we’ve seen to have done so.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

They see it as fighting an unjust law - just because something is legal doesn't make it right. As Layton put it last episode, first class has a bowling alley. There's enough space on the train that the tail doesn't have to be crammed in together the way they are, starving and filthy and almost certainly dying off because of their conditions.

Also, Layton DID respect the law when he solved the murder case, and all he got for his troubles was "drawered"/imprisoned for figuring out Melanie's secret (and I'm not sure how legal that is; she did it secretly so my guess is it's not something she was supposed to do). Melanie quite literally let that little psychopath LJ get away with murder. LJ wasn't respecting the law when she was having people killed and dismembered, and she suffered no consequences for it. The law only works for a few on the train. It's REALLY a trip watching this in summer 2020.

And their solution is to just murder innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs?  They are on board the train illegally.  We saw them revolt once already in the first episode.  They killed 22 soldiers (I think?).  One of them lost and arm and three were Drawered.   After that, we didn't see any further attempt at a peaceful appeal.  If the source of their rage is the benefits enjoyed by First, why not direct their anger towards First and not the soldiers?  Lilah Jr regularly travels to Third for noodles and prostitutes.  Why didn't the Tailees and Third think of kidnapping her and holding her hostage?  They could have sent a message to Melanie that they have Lilah and they want to discuss some solutions.

If they wanted revenge so much against Lilah Junior, they easily had her in their grasp and they did nothing about it.  They could have exacted their own justice against someone who was actually guilty and they did nothing about it.

9 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Ruth in particular seems to think they need him to cling on to the way she does, but I haven’t seen much evidence of that. As you say, the tail only cares who is in charge so they know who to fight, and how to leverage the info - they don’t care about Wilford as a person. First class only cares because they want to appeal to the person in charge about their petty grievances - who it is doesn’t matter to them either.

Ruth seems to have elevated him to Godlike status (didn’t she cross herself in the shape of a W?) but I think she’s the only one we’ve seen to have done so.

More than a few on the train have done this W salute.  The Eastern European mechanic - the guy that talked to the students and explained his role on the train, and later told Melanie when she was repairing the hydraulics that he is the only one who should be going under the train.  The students themselves all did it too.

Ruth is a complete idiot.  She feels betrayed that Melanie didn't tell her THE SECRET but it's quite obvious that she wouldn't have kept the secret to herself, and Melanie wanted to maintain the premise that he was in charge.

Part of the problem is that they really didn't explain why Melanie felt the need to continue the illusion.  "He sold tickets."  So what?  She could have just said from the beginning that Mr. Wilford didn't make it onto the train, but he entrusted her to run the train.

I am truly hoping that Lilah Junior dies horribly.  I truly can't stand her.  The way she was positively giddy when she heard about the Tailees.  "The Tailees?!"  It'd be even better if others in First killed her.

[Christina]

Well, the good news is there are less mouths to feed and more space to go around.

[Mrs peel]

56 minutes ago, blackwing said:

And their solution is to just murder innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs?  They are on board the train illegally.  We saw them revolt once already in the first episode.  They killed 22 soldiers (I think?).  One of them lost and arm and three were Drawered.   After that, we didn't see any further attempt at a peaceful appeal.  If the source of their rage is the benefits enjoyed by First, why not direct their anger towards First and not the soldiers?  Lilah Jr regularly travels to Third for noodles and prostitutes.  Why didn't the Tailees and Third think of kidnapping her and holding her hostage?  They could have sent a message to Melanie that they have Lilah and they want to discuss some solutions.

If they wanted revenge so much against Lilah Junior, they easily had her in their grasp and they did nothing about it.  They could have exacted their own justice against someone who was actually guilty and they did nothing about it.

More than a few on the train have done this W salute.  The Eastern European mechanic - the guy that talked to the students and explained his role on the train, and later told Melanie when she was repairing the hydraulics that he is the only one who should be going under the train.  The students themselves all did it too.

Ruth is a complete idiot.  She feels betrayed that Melanie didn't tell her THE SECRET but it's quite obvious that she wouldn't have kept the secret to herself, and Melanie wanted to maintain the premise that he was in charge.

Part of the problem is that they really didn't explain why Melanie felt the need to continue the illusion.  "He sold tickets."  So what?  She could have just said from the beginning that Mr. Wilford didn't make it onto the train, but he entrusted her to run the train.

I am truly hoping that Lilah Junior dies horribly.  I truly can't stand her.  The way she was positively giddy when she heard about the Tailees.  "The Tailees?!"  It'd be even better if others in First killed her.

1.  People are “on the train illegally” only because apparently goats failed to prepare and protect the people.  And factually, they have been there for 7 years, time to make some accommodation for a large part of the remnants of society.

2.  The soldiers are protecting first class and much of the space that could be split among more people.  The tailpipes and 3rd class would probably be more than willing to fight directly with the 1st class passengers, but they aren’t go8ng to move out from behind the soldiers.

2. I assume Melanie lied because people wouldn’t follow her the same way they were willing to follow Wilford.  Truly, it’s like a cult - maybe that’s a necessity when you are locked up on a train that is the only way to survive.  But the idea of a small group taking up tins of the space and goods was always a recipe for disaster.

3.  I can understand that Ruth’s life has been completely upended, and I assume she has nursed a grudge against Melanie for her “apparent” connection to Wilford.  But she of all people should wake up and realize that Melanie is essential.

[iMonrey]

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Ruth seems to have elevated him to Godlike status (didn’t she cross herself in the shape of a W?) but I think she’s the only one we’ve seen to have done so.

I think Wilford is revered as a Godlike persona throughout first class, at least. If you watch with closed captioning, He and His and Him are capitalized when referring to him. The world Glorious is thrown around a lot too.

[Netfoot]

XXX

19 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

it’s a battle between first who has all the guns...

If they have all the guns, why didn't they use ONE of them?  It was laughable.  A good 12 Ga. and I could have stopped the entire taily "army" by myself. Instead, the tailys had bows and arrows... they even had a ballista, FFS! Where were the rifles, shotguns and pistols of the defenders? Where were the flamethrowers? Where were the hoses squirting super-chilled air from outside? The entire battle was about as realistic as some SJW's wet dream, and about as effective.

19 hours ago, saoirse said:

I really need to see that girl get her due, along with her idiot parents.

She needs to have her ass thrown off the train. But give her a nice, warm coat first, so she can suffer for longer, before she crystallizes.

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

Is there supposed to be a second season for this, or was it designed as a one off?

"it was announced that the series would [...] air on TNT's sister network TBS [...] and that it had already been renewed for a second season." -- Wikipedia

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The whole big speech Layton gave in the tail just felt corny and unnecessary.

"Not one tail; one train! Now let's go kill a buncha ourselves!" What bullshit.

5 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

To me the Tail section is occupied by a lot of middle aged white men, that one older woman with a frizzy gray bob haircut, and the Black woman who helped the electrician cut the wires. I should probably have more ways to distinguish them by this point than that?

What this writing says to me is that fundamentally, the tailies are as worthless/useless as they have been made out to be. Otherwise, by now I would at least know who someone (other than Layton) actually is!

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Ruth is a complete idiot.  She feels betrayed that Melanie didn't tell her THE SECRET but it's quite obvious that she wouldn't have kept the secret to herself...

100%.

Well, I'm watching next week's double-finale, but I don't hold out much hope for a believable conclusion, far less a satisfactory one!

[blackwing]

12 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

If they have all the guns, why didn't they use ONE of them?  It was laughable.  A good 12 Ga. and I could have stopped the entire taily "army" by myself. Instead, the tailys had bows and arrows... they even had a ballista, FFS! Where were the rifles, shotguns and pistols of the defenders? Where were the flamethrowers? Where were the hoses squirting super-chilled air from outside? The entire battle was about as realistic as some SJW's wet dream, and about as effective.

I truly didn't get that either.  The Tailees and Third have been sharpening any bit of metal they have for use as blades and axes and what not.  The soldiers ACTUALLY have guns, at least I thought I have seen guns in the past.  Yet they don't choose to use them at all.  They choose to rush into battle against the Tailees with their billy clubs.  Why?  As soon as the Tailee army rushed them, the soldiers in front should have just mowed them down with bullets.  Completely ridiculous.  At first I thought maybe they were concerned about piercing the hull of the train and letting in the cold, but if that was the case, they would never have had guns in the first place.  I later saw some of the soldiers using metal blades and axes but I'm pretty certain that these were weapons they picked up from the bodies of the dead Tailies.  Because, you know, they didn't think to use the weapons they did have.

Astrid gets her hand lopped off.  We see the stump and we see her screaming, but wow, she has really learned to toughen up working in the train cafeteria because she didn't pass out from the pain/shock.

Layton's Braveheart speech was one of the worst Braveheart speeches I've ever seen in a movie or on TV.

Shouldn't English Engineer immediately be suspecting Miles?  I have no more like/sympathy for Miles.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I think Wilford is revered as a Godlike persona throughout first class, at least. If you watch with closed captioning, He and His and Him are capitalized when referring to him. The world Glorious is thrown around a lot too.

I did notice that last night! I had the CC on because my AC is loud. 

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, AryasMum said:

I hate that Layton trusted sadistic murderer LJ, and that he allowed LJ to interact with innocent Miles. 

I don't think he trusted her so much as used her as a tool to disrupt first class and Melanie's control over the train.

 

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If they execute Melanie, who the hell do they think is going to keep the train running? Now they know she designed the damn thing and there's no Wilford. They kind of need her whether they want to or not.

Yeah, if anything she should be more indispensible in their eyes now than she ever was as head of hospitality.  And she is indispensible, so executing her or denying her a position of power is extremely short sighted.

 

15 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Don't read the episode titles for next week, major spoilers.

Already saw them, that's why I added the "for now".  And as someone else noted, the previews for next week gave it away also.

[redpencil]

Totally agree with everyone else who has pointed out how spectacularly stupid it would be to execute Melanie. Remove her from being in charge, okay, sure. But how on earth do they think this is going to go if they get rid of her? Especially now that they know how integral she really is/was in building the thing and keeping it going. I'm not sure if that is just what Ruth thinks should happen because she's pissed, or if that would also be in Layton's plans for when he or his group is in charge (side note, but who exactly do they think is going to run things? their whole game plan for once this is over is very unclear to me). I think he knows or at least suspects Melanie's true role in regards to the engineering, etc., right? Or does he still think Mr. Wilford built the train and she just took over at some point?

I also feel like there should have been a better plan to deal with the Jackboots. Even if you couldn't get the leader on your side, at least get some of the foot soldiers before you attack so you don't have as much of a bloodbath? If it takes longer before you can put your plan in motion, it takes longer. Seems like bad planning to me.

Edited July 7, 2020 by redpencil

[AnimeMania]

They could always turn the temperature down in the cars that are rioting, not enough to kill anybody, just enough to remind everybody what might happen next.

[Xebug67]

When in an attempt to further stir up trouble as he's addressing third class, Layton says something along the lines of "We're the ones who are doing all the work" (I'm paraphrasing poorly I know), my first thought was, "What work has any of the tailees done?" for the most part anyway, not including the ones who've gotten out of the tail and moved up to third class, or the sanitation team.  All I can see that the tail has done is use up unplanned for resources in keeping them alive and sustaining this pack of low life stowaways for 7 years. 

 

It's frightening just how much this series is emulating real life circumstances nowadays, and just as frustrating and angering as the real life rioters and unjustly self-entitled dregs of humanity are constantly wreaking havoc, so are the low life stowaways on this train doing the same exact thing.

 

I was so angered when I saw all the jack boots being killed by these undeserving scum bag tailees.  Yes, I side with those passengers who have paid their way (first class), and empathize only slightly with third class, but not enough to the point of rooting for them to win the revolution.

 

I have ZERO sympathy for Layton and his usurping minions.

[rmontro]

12 minutes ago, Xebug67 said:

I was so angered when I saw all the jack boots being killed by these undeserving scum bag tailees.  Yes, I side with those passengers who have paid their way (first class), and empathize only slightly with third class, but not enough to the point of rooting for them to win the revolution.

It's true the Tailies are basically freeloaders, while everyone else on the train actually made a contribution to its existence.  Buying a ticket helps pay for it.  Still, to say the Tailies were treated shabbily would be an understatement, so I can see why they're angry and want to improve their conditions.  But they don't deserve to be running the show by any stretch of the imagination.

[blackwing]

27 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It's true the Tailies are basically freeloaders, while everyone else on the train actually made a contribution to its existence.  Buying a ticket helps pay for it.  Still, to say the Tailies were treated shabbily would be an understatement, so I can see why they're angry and want to improve their conditions.  But they don't deserve to be running the show by any stretch of the imagination.

The line that keeps sticking out to me is when Layton indignantly says "They have a BOWLING ALLEY".  You know what?  They PAID for that bowling alley.  I suppose I would get it if the Tailees said to management, "we want to be treated like Third.  Please, give us jobs and we will work for our food and accomodations."  But instead, their whole revolution is simply based on the fact that IT'S NOT FAIR and they want "no borders, no classes" and want everyone to be equal.  That's terrible.

What makes it even worse is that there's absolutely no indication that any of these people had ever asked for a job.  Zarah got a job as the meditation master.  She left the Tail and is viewed to this day as a "traitor" by the other Tailees.  She performs work for the train in exchange for better food and a better room.  Why didn't Layton do the same?  He was a detective... clearly he could have approached management and applied for a job as a Brakeman, or at least asked.  But he didn't want to.  Then after helping to solve the murder mystery, he was offered a space in Third for his detective services and he refused because he didn't want to be branded a traitor.  So instead he chose to just constantly complain about how things aren't fair.

 

[iMonrey]

Quote

It's true the Tailies are basically freeloaders, while everyone else on the train actually made a contribution to its existence.  Buying a ticket helps pay for it.  Still, to say the Tailies were treated shabbily would be an understatement, so I can see why they're angry and want to improve their conditions.  But they don't deserve to be running the show by any stretch of the imagination.

I keep beating this dead horse but the whole premise here is flawed. In the pilot we see all these people jumping the train, and guards/soldiers are actively throwing them off and shooting them dead. Finally they become so overwhelmed they just lock the doors and shut in however many are able to make it into the car when the train takes off.

So . . . what happened next? If the people in charge didn't want these folks on the train and didn't want to feed them or take care of them, why not just keep them back there until they starved to death, or unhook the cars? If they decided to allow them to stay on the train for moral reasons and allowed them rations, no matter how poor, why would they not have tried to incorporate them into third class so they could contribute something? What's the point of keeping a bunch of stowaways and giving them food if you have no use for them?

I just don't get the whole premise of this, unless the show is deliberately trying to address the larger issue of politics, race and morality - and I don't think the show is that smart.

[rmontro]

Melanie said she drove the train off while Mr. Wilford was waiting at the boarding platform.  I keep thinking that one of the highlights of every revolution should be when they pass that platform, with a frozen in place Mr. Wilford waving as they go by.

More seriously, he probably sought some sort of shelter until death inevitably came.

Since Melanie left with the train ahead of schedule, does that mean she intentionally killed her daughter?  Meaning that she sacrificed her daughter in the plot to leave Wilford behind?  Did she know her daughter had not yet boarded, or did she find out later?

[Ziggy]

On 7/6/2020 at 1:36 PM, blackwing said:

I've spent all season trying to figure out the difference between the Brakemen and the Jackboots.

You're doing better than me.  At least you noticed the Jackboots before this episode.  I totally missed them before!

[JasonCC]

I can't decide it Ruth is more upset because she is a true Wilford believer or she is angry she wasn't let in on the secret all these years, and feels like a fool for not figuring it out.

Honestly, Melanie's reasoning for leaving without Wilford (I still think he's in a drawer, though) was a good one that made me feel a lot of sympathy for Melanie. She did all the work to actually make Snowpiercer into a rescue mission for humanity when he just wanted to live the high life off the ticket sales with what years he had left. 

I think 7 years really is about the breaking point where you have to come to some sort of dialogue about shared resources. Things like "I paid for season passes to the sauna" are starting to look ridiculous. Plus, there is a generation of those (all classes) who were underage when they came aboard and aren't going to cling to pre-apocalypse values. A more benevolent Wilford....er, Melanie...should have been starting (slowly, not too fast) an integration plan based on skills or something. Healthcare, education, & basic nutrition for the Tailie children at the least. Slowly doing some minor redistribution and human rights advances if not because it's right, then because it's the way to avoid a bloody revolution on your hands. Sort of a Snowpiercer New Deal. As mentioned upthread it really was bad writing not to explain or hint why Tailies were allowed on in the first place--even if the initial reason was diabolical on the part of train security. It almost feels like we're missing something.

Edited July 8, 2020 by JasonCC
ETA; fixed that last sentence about lazy writing on the backhistory

[blackwing]

16 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

I can't decide it Ruth is more upset because she is a true Wilford believer or she is angry she wasn't let in on the secret all these years, and feels like a fool for not figuring it out.

Honestly, Melanie's reasoning for leaving without Wilford (I still think he's in a drawer, though) was a good one that made me feel a lot of sympathy for Melanie. She did all the work to actually make Snowpiercer into a rescue mission for humanity when he just wanted to live the high life off the ticket sales with what years he had left. 

I think 7 years really is about the breaking point where you have to come to some sort of dialogue about shared resources. Things like "I paid for season passes to the sauna" are starting to look ridiculous. Plus, there is a generation of those (all classes) who were underage when they came aboard and aren't going to cling to pre-apocalypse values. A more benevolent Wilford....er, Melanie...should have been starting (slowly, not too fast) an integration plan based on skills or something. Healthcare, education, & basic nutrition for the Tailie children at the least. Slowly doing some minor redistribution and human rights advances if not because it's right, then because it's the way to avoid a bloody revolution on your hands. Sort of a Snowpiercer New Deal. As mentioned upthread it really was bad writing not to explain or hint why Tailies were allowed on in the first place--even if the reason was diabolical. 

It's mostly B with maybe a slight bit of A.  Ruth is a vapid, vain and petty person.  She clearly loves being adored by the First Class passengers, and she loves feeling needed.  She loved when Mr. Wilford came to her B&B and she loved the compliments from him and the invitation for a job.  So some part of her is in love with the idea that he personally requested her and needs her.  But, I do feel that she is mostly upset because Melanie didn't tell her earlier.

When the train almost derailed, she got to be the Voice and she loved the feeling and the power and the commendations from other.  She was about to tell Melanie about the impending First Class mutiny but then when Melanie shushed her, she got her little feelings hurt and decided that she was going to take Melanie's place.  Commander Grey appealed to her vanity and it worked.  I think the only people that truly know that Melanie is the Chief Engineer and the chief mechanic for the train are English Engineer, Traitor Javi, and Eastern European mechanic and maybe some of his team.

I really don't think Melanie is a bad person.  And I truly do think that she has humanity's best interests at heart, she described the Drawer system as a way to pick people of varying backgrounds and skills and put them in suspended animation so that when everything settled down and cleared up, humanity would have a hope.  We saw this with those three prisoners.  Strong Boy woke up speaking Mandarin.  Pike woke up and is gentle and calm and willing to help the train against his former compatriot Layton.  So clearly something is happening in the Drawers that heals, rehabilitates, and teaches the Drawerees.

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, JasonCC said:

Slowly doing some minor redistribution and human rights advances if not because it's right, then because it's the way to avoid a bloody revolution on your hands.

Yes, and because the tailies are an irreplaceable resource that should not be squandered in an otherwise sterile world. But the idea that 1st should be stripped of their earned (yes, earned) privileges and possibly discarded in the name of utility so that the rabble in the tail can be handed the keys to the kingdom? No.

You say 7 years have passed, but frankly some sort of integration plan should have begun immediately. The question is how, on day one, to convince the people at the front to agree, rather than stage their own coup and simply disconnect the tail and let them all go to hell. Maybe Mr. W had the presence to persuade, but remember, he was absent, and Melanie was limited to what she could do without precipitating a demand for Mr. W to appear personally.

[JasonCC]

Quote

Ruth is a vapid, vain and petty person.  She clearly loves being adored by the First Class passengers, and she loves feeling needed.  She loved when Mr. Wilford came to her B&B and she loved the compliments from him and the invitation for a job.  So some part of her is in love with the idea that he personally requested her and needs her. 

That is so true. She probably--after an initial shock--would have been satisfied being "in on the plan" with Melanie posing as Mr Wilford so long as she got all that adoration and feeling loved and needed from First Class. She would have been a wild card, though, and I can't say I blame Melanie for not telling her. The longer working with her, I suspect Melanie respected her less and less. Or else just didn't think of Ruth much at all (certainly not as someone worthy to be a trusted insider on the plot).

Ruth's fairly sudden flip to hating Melanie (especially after you reminded me of the brush off the episode before this one, blackwing) made me think of an Edith Wharton quote from "The House of Mirth":

“It is less mortifying to believe one's self unpopular than insignificant, and vanity prefers to assume that indifference is a latent form of unfriendliness.”

Edited July 8, 2020 by JasonCC

[Tachi Rocinante]

What would be cool is if Wilford had a contingency and is secretly in his own smaller train following them.

Unless all of his scenes are flashbacks, which would be kinda lame.

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

What would be cool is if Wilford had a contingency and is secretly in his own smaller train following them.

Unless all of his scenes are flashbacks, which would be kinda lame.

I was thinking the same thing, there was probably a "proof of concept" train and Wilford and his train full of Whores are probably right behind them and catching up fast. That is why Melanie is so worried about how behind they are in the schedule.

It would be easy to assimilate the people in the tail into the rest of the train, all you have to do is send some people back there to train them and then say that the Tailies can have a place in 3rd if they learn a skill, get a job and they can take one old or young person with them in they are willing to live together, take care of them, and pretend to be related.

[Tachi Rocinante]

For those of you that have the whole season recording, be sure to make sure the second hour is scheduled.

I had to do it manually.

[Pachengala]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

For those of you that have the whole season recording, be sure to make sure the second hour is scheduled.

I had to do it manually.

Hot tip, thanks. 

[Lemons]

I don’t understand how they think the train will keep going if they kill the chief engineer and arrest the other two.   It already looks like they are understaffed in the skill department.  So much so that they had to bring up a 12 year old as an engineer.  

[AryasMum]

On 7/6/2020 at 4:38 PM, blackwing said:

And their solution is to just murder innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs?  They are on board the train illegally.  We saw them revolt once already in the first episode.  They killed 22 soldiers (I think?).  One of them lost and arm and three were Drawered.   After that, we didn't see any further attempt at a peaceful appeal.  If the source of their rage is the benefits enjoyed by First, why not direct their anger towards First and not the soldiers?  Lilah Jr regularly travels to Third for noodles and prostitutes.  Why didn't the Tailees and Third think of kidnapping her and holding her hostage?  They could have sent a message to Melanie that they have Lilah and they want to discuss some solutions.

 

Those “innocent soldiers” are as “innocent” as any other soldiers of a tyrannical regime. No different than the soldiers in tanks in Tiananmen Square, or those terrorizing on behalf of Saddam Hussein.  There is absolutely no consequences when they, or anyone in first class, murder. Melanie will face no consequences for Josie’s death.  Plus, they just backed an illegal insurrection in first class, where they plan on killing Melanie. 

It’s not really a complicated concept when the oppressed, vulnerable, powerless people seek democracy.  Typically, they are cheered on, not shamed for not accepting oppression.  The symbolism is overpowering - they will not accept living at the back of the bus. 

On 7/8/2020 at 7:28 AM, Netfoot said:

Yes, and because the tailies are an irreplaceable resource that should not be squandered in an otherwise sterile world. But the idea that 1st should be stripped of their earned (yes, earned) privileges and possibly discarded in the name of utility so that the rabble in the tail can be handed the keys to the kingdom? No.

You say 7 years have passed, but frankly some sort of integration plan should have begun immediately. The question is how, on day one, to convince the people at the front to agree, rather than stage their own coup and simply disconnect the tail and let them all go to hell. Maybe Mr. W had the presence to persuade, but remember, he was absent, and Melanie was limited to what she could do without precipitating a demand for Mr. W to appear personally.

It was made quite clear in episode one, that the very people who destroyed earth with their greed, are the very people who used their ill-gotten gains to buy their way on the train. The very train that contains the only survivors on earth. Sure they “allowed” a few experts in their field to board and take care of them (after all, first class can’t seem to wipe their own asses), otherwise, they allowed servants to join them as long as they stayed out of their way, worked until the day they died serving first class, and only had children when given permission by the Wizard of Oz himself.

I wouldn’t call their places “earned” anymore than I think Russian plutocrats “earned” their power over the people of Russia. 🤷‍♀️

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, AryasMum said:

It was made quite clear in episode one, that the very people who destroyed earth with their greed, are the very people who used their ill-gotten gains to buy their way on the train.

A premise I categorically reject. Because it's bullshit.

It isn't only rich people who exploit the natural resources of the planet and pollute the environment. It isn't only rich people that drive gas-guzzlers, and pour used engine oil into the drains. It isn't rich people who routinely devastate the forests of the world with slash'n'burn agriculture. It isn't rich people who dump trash and toxic chemicals into the ocean.

The whole ill-gotten gains vs. the somehow wholesome unwashed idea is crap.

First classers paid for the train, in exchange for their place on it. The tailies are illicit stowaways, who have contributed virtually nothing, and now want to run the show. They don't propose a scheme to integrate all trainies. They want to kill anyone that stands between them and the engine, which they don't know how to run.

[Lemons]

17 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

 

First classers paid for the train, in exchange for their place on it. The tailies are illicit stowaways, who have contributed virtually nothing, and now want to run the show. They don't propose a scheme to integrate all trainies. They want to kill anyone that stands between them and the engine, which they don't know how to run.

They've made the first class people as ignorant as the rest of the train when it comes to running the train or even knowing what's going on.  So how does the first class think they are going to run the train if they take out the lead engineer?  Train the redheaded teenager?

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, Lemons said:

So how does the first class think they are going to run the train if they take out the lead engineer? 

They are dumb. Obviously, if they... anybody... eliminate the one person who knows how everything works, the result will inevitably be bad. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

The symbolism is overpowering - they will not accept living at the back of the bus. 

The symbolism might be overpowering, if they hadn't diluted it by making the tailees stowaways. You cannot accurately compare oppressed peoples of today with stowaways. Generally, oppressed people aren't oppressed because they illegally jumped onto a train they had no business being on. If the show is trying to comment on classism they shouldn't have made the tailees stowaways. That's been my point all along. They have sort of blurred the line here in regards to what they do or don't "deserve," and not everyone is going to feel the same way about it. 

[tennisgurl]

I hope that, with all of the chanting and the freedom and the red flags waving, that I wasn't the only one expecting/hoping for Layton to lead a rousing rendition of Do You Hear the People Sing, Les Miz style. Really, they can do pretty well getting more people on their side, with all of this going on it would probably be pretty easy to get most everyone behind a new regime. 

I bet Melanie is really regretting not deep freezing LJ right about now. She is a deeply scarily chaotic element in her perfectly planned train world, just I assumed that she would go on a random killing spree, not that she was ally with Layton and his rebellion basically out of boredom and the promise of more violence. 

That fight got nasty! The night car is going to need some deep ass scrubbing to get all of that blood out. They have three pretty much on the team, and one is staging their own coup basically, I wonder which way two will swing? They might live a nicer life, but they probably have more in common with three than one for the most part, as they are presumably working for their passage the way that three is, just they have more white collar jobs so they get nicer compartments. 

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The symbolism might be overpowering, if they hadn't diluted it by making the tailees stowaways. You cannot accurately compare oppressed peoples of today with stowaways. Generally, oppressed people aren't oppressed because they illegally jumped onto a train they had no business being on. If the show is trying to comment on classism they shouldn't have made the tailees stowaways. That's been my point all along. They have sort of blurred the line here in regards to what they do or don't "deserve," and not everyone is going to feel the same way about it. 

I agree.  I might have been more sympathetic to them if the show hadn't made them illegal stowaways who forced their way onto the train.  They could have called them Fourth Class.  People who bought a ticket for Fourth Class accomodations... which I picture as something like the regular seats on an overnight Amtrak.  No sleeping berths, you sleep in your seat.  You have access to a dining car and a toilet.  Very basic, but it's cheap.  Or maybe they bought Third Class passenger tickets.

Then perhaps something happens and the train runs out of room so they decide that these people who have bought a ticket, albeit a cheaper ticket, can't get what they had purchased.  So they get forcibly removed and shoved to the baggage car.  Or maybe there was some kind of lottery system to randomly determine who would lose their seat.  They can still be on the train, but they have to sleep in the baggage car and get poor rations instead of what others who paid the same get.

The show needed to have instilled some sense of obvious injustice to make me feel sympathetic towards the Tailees.  If the above scenario had happened, I would have felt bad for them.  Instead, I feel like they are the homeless guy who got caught living on the millionaire's property, allowed to stay and given basic rations, and somehow I am supposed to feel like the way they are being treated by the millionaire is unfair.