S01.E08: Find a Way

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

10 hours ago, Adgirl said:

Right because a shitty landlord not providing heat and your job not paying you enough to eat so you can't make milk for your child are all things perfectly within one's control.

So what's changed for Bebe? She still has no money or marketable job skills, and is now a fugitive on top of that. Does anyone think that living in a car while her mother dumpster-dives is going to be a better life for Mirabelle than her beautiful home and loving adoptive parents in Shaker Heights?

Bebe made a conscious choice to abandon her helpless baby. Let her live with the consequences of that choice.

[marny]

16 hours ago, Akinimod said:

Am I the only one on team Elena here? She did her best to create what she thought was a perfect family and the best life and even though this cost her giving up many personal dreams, she stuck with the decisions she made. Kudos for the determination and not changing her mind at the first sight of hardship. Was it really too much to expect that all her family members also try to act in a way that's best for the family instead of being selfish brats that they turned out to be? Of course she would have been better off as less of a control freak, but hey, no one is perfect.

 

Children are human beings who are not required to suppress their feelings simply because their mother made a bad decision to give up her dreams. Elena regrets her decisions but instead of trying to figure out how to find happiness within her life or to make efforts for her children not to feel as stuck as she did, she uses that “determination” to pigeon-hole her kids the same way she felt pigeon-holed. And god forbid her child not conform to the fake life she’s envisioned. Was Izzy difficult? Yes, as are most teenagers— and her difficulties were well-earned. Was Elena a good mother to her? No.

And then she has the gall to try to get dirt about whether Bebe ever considered not giving birth to Mai Lin when she herself didn’t want Izzy and regretted her existence every day? Amazing. But her actions are forgivable because she has money and a support system. A major difference I’m seeing is that Bebe was likely desperate and suffering from post partum during her worst moment of abandoning her child. What’s Elena’s excuse for emotionally abandoning her child for her entire life?

I agree with the posters here who don’t like the writer’s implicit message that biology is what makes a better parent, but I’m also grossed out by the many arguments I’ve seen here that seem to say money is what makes a better parent. 

 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 minutes ago, marny said:

I’m also grossed out by the many arguments I’ve seen here that seem to say money is what makes a better parent. 

Especially considering that we have seen that Pearl always felt loved by Mia, despite being repeatedly uprooted, sleeping in their car, and getting by with very little money. Mia was far from a perfect parent but she never made Pearl feel unloved or unwanted.

In contrast, Elena clearly had enough money to live in a big fancy house, send Izzy to an expensive summer orchestra program, and provide four children with all the material things they could want and she was still a shitty mother to Izzy.

But somehow the McCulloughs > Bebe because they have a lot more money. Money can make things easier but lots of single moms with crappy minimum wage jobs manage to raise kids.

[kimchibucatini]

12 hours ago, Adgirl said:

Right because a shitty landlord not providing heat and your job not paying you enough to eat so you can't make milk for your child are all things perfectly within one's control.

Thank you for saying this - I haven't seen this brought up in any other thread. The lack of empathy for Bebe really shattered me when I started reading comments. This may be in part because I read the book last weekend and then immediately binge watched the show (the portrayal differs and important details are left out). Also, my kids are still little, so I'm only a year out from the last time I had a newborn.

I'm privileged in that I didn't want for food or heat and I have a supportive family. I also had no issues breastfeeding, but if I did I had the means to buy formula. But I still suffered PPA along with pretty common but very powerful postpartum issues (lack of sleep, colicky baby, hormonal fluctuations, etc. etc.). I cannot imagine facing that on top of not being able to provide food for my child and being totally alone with no support. I could easily see how she'd make that desperate decision to ensure her baby was fed and then later regret it. 

It made me really uncomfortable how the show set up the situation to perpetuate the idea that biology is everything - it's obviously not, and I can see how this would tick off a lot of viewers. I think they totally missed the opportunity to put a spotlight on PPD/PPA (tragically under diagnosed) and the lack of postpartum support/care in this country. 

As far as race is concerned and comments on how the lawyer set up his argument - I think he was so direct in hammering the race issue home because unfortunately a lot of viewers would see zero problem with a white family using fortune cookies/panda bears to celebrate a one-year old Asian baby's birthday party as a "nod to the culture" (I may have misquoted Linda, but this was the essence of her testimony on it). And it IS problematic. Much of the court battle seemed to me to be a commentary on the b.s. notion of "colorblindness" that some white people use to signal that they are inclusive (Lexie uses the term when she's having the breakup fight with Brian in her bedroom; Linda basically says it doesn't matter that May Ling is Chinese). There are a lot better and more qualified sources than me who can describe why "colorblindness" contributes to racism. I applaud the show for acknowledging it, but I think using the lawyer to illuminate the issue is the reason there are multiple comments on here saying that his only argument for Bebe getting custody is that she is Chinese. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Bebe made a conscious choice to abandon her helpless baby. Let her live with the consequences of that choice.

This is essentially Elena's argument. And it doesn't address the question or issues surrounding why would a mother be driven to do this in the first place. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by kimchiarancini

[peachmangosteen]

21 hours ago, snarts said:

This, and it drove me crazy when he went after Helen for changing the baby's name. Of course she re-named her, how the hell would she know the birth name of an abandoned baby???

Yea, I was confused by that. It made literally no sense. Are we now supposed to believe that Bebe, what, left a note with the baby that said what her name was? 

The story with Bebe and the baby was easily the worst one because clearly the writers had an agenda with it but they didn't manage to write it to fit that agenda well enough. I get that they want us to think bio moms are the best and that a Chinese baby should have a Chinese mom but, first of all, that's gross lol but also they didn't do anything to show us that a) Bebe was any better off now than she was when she felt so low that she abandoned her baby or that b) The McCullough's were evil, racist people that would be bad parents. The whole story failed on every level.

[marshmallows]

17 hours ago, Akinimod said:

Am I the only one on team Elena here? She did her best to create what she thought was a perfect family and the best life and even though this cost her giving up many personal dreams, she stuck with the decisions she made. Kudos for the determination and not changing her mind at the first sight of hardship. Was it really too much to expect that all her family members also try to act in a way that's best for the family instead of being selfish brats that they turned out to be? Of course she would have been better off as less of a control freak, but hey, no one is perfect.

Also, why despise Moody for his claim at Pearl, but not Bill at Elena? When Bill left on the last evening I was waiting for Elena to tell him to not bother coming back if he's not ready to support her fighting for the life they both chose. As for Moody, I feel he deserved to know where he stood with Pearl - seeing that he likes her why couldn't she just tell him the truth, preferably even before sneaking off with his brother? It looked like she used him when she had no other friends, but as soon as someone more popular came along, it was bye bye Moody the loner, hello the high society of Lexie and Trip.

 

You are not alone. It's not that I am 100% team Elena is awesome. But, I found her more understandable. She tried her best to build a home for her children. Could she have been more open minded? Absolutely. Should she have taken the time to get to know Izzy better? Yes. But in Elena's defense, Izzy was a very difficult child. It would be hard to be her mother. It doesn't mean you tell her that or tell her you never wanted her, because WOW that is harsh. But, everyone seems to forget that parents are human too, and humans say things they shouldn't and things out of anger all of the time. I wish Izzy hadn't run away and we got to see a reconciliation between Elena/Izzy. It would have been nice to see Elena apologize to Izzy and show her that she is important and she is heard. I just feel like Mia got underserved redemption, while Elena didn't get any redemption whatsoever. Pearl took about 5 minutes to completely forgive her mother. Is Pearl really that much of a doormat or desperate for love/stability? I think most children would absolutely despise their mother after finding all of this out. Mia deprived Pearl of who were supposed to be her parents, money Mia had, stability, her grandparents all for her own selfish "Pearl is MINE" bs. No, Mia Pearl in fact was NOT yours. You were a surrogate, not her mother. The Ryan's woman was her mother. Geeeez.

I want to echo whoever said above how Bebe and Mia seemed to get their happy endings while all the rich white people had devastating endings. I don't know what point the show was trying to get across here, because again Mia was terrible for everything mentioned above. And Bebe while her story is tragic, at the end of the day she abandoned her baby in the freezing cold to the point May Ling got frostbite. Bebe is working the same job she was when she abandoned May Ling and living in the same apt (from what I could tell). She is in no better place than before, so how is she going to care for her now when she couldn't back then? And this is not me saying, only the rich can provide a stable, loving home for children because that is not true. There are plenty of families who have much less money, even poor, who can provide a stable loving home. But, Bebe is not just poor, she is basically at poverty level and has already proven that she is unfit to take care of her child. Again I echo, if Bebe was white, this would not even be up for discussion that the adoptive parents deserved to win the trial. The adoptive parents did nothing wrong here besides give an abandoned baby a home and they had to suffer for it.

Wow, the Asian lawyer really had a terrible case if all he had to go off of was May Ling belongs with Bebe because she is Chinese. It honestly doesn't get more racist than this. So you are telling me because Bebe and May Ling are the same race, somehow that makes Bebe a better parent? Give me a break. That is so absurd.

Ugh Moody really went all self-righteous nice guy this episode. I am so glad Izzy told him that just because he liked Pearl, it in no way means Pearl had any obligation to like him back. This is the only time I liked Izzy this entire show. If Moody is going to be upset, at least direct it at the correct person which is your brother Tripp who slept with the girl he knew you liked and then did not tell you about it.

I agree with whoever said Pearl and Bill are the only likable characters.

While I have a lot of issues with the way this show handled biology vs. adoption and racism, overall I thought it was a very thought provoking show and incredibly well acted. I enjoyed all the tension because this is often how real life is, so I think it did a good representation on how life is so unfair and people who don't deserve redemption get it all the time and sometimes there are no happy endings, just loose ends and little fires everywhere.

[PepSinger]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But somehow the McCulloughs > Bebe because they have a lot more money. Money can make things easier but lots of single moms with crappy minimum wage jobs manage to raise kids.

That's true. However, we've already seen Bebe try to raise a child with a crappy minimum wage. It ended with her abandoning her baby. As many others have said, nothing has changed in the interim. Who's to say she won't do it again? Yes, she was possibly suffering from PPD, and is no longer not, but what if she becomes clinically depressed? 

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, marshmallows said:

I just feel like Mia got underserved redemption, while Elena didn't get any redemption whatsoever. Pearl took about 5 minutes to completely forgive her mother. Is Pearl really that much of a doormat or desperate for love/stability? I think most children would absolutely despise their mother after finding all of this out. Mia deprived Pearl of who were supposed to be her parents, money Mia had, stability, her grandparents all for her own selfish "Pearl is MINE" bs. No, Mia Pearl in fact was NOT yours.

I also found it unrealistic that Pearl would forgive her mom so quickly. I told my mom there's no way I would forgive her if she had done that to me, and she laughed and agreed with me. Haha. I agree that Mia's redemption was unearned. Granted, this is the only episode of the series where I found her remotely tolerable, but I still kinda hate that she gets a happy ending. Nonetheless, that's life. 

In fact, what I appreciated most about the ending to the series is that it perfectly mirrored real life. Some people never pay for their misdeeds. Some people are awarded for bad behavior. Some people eventually lose everything they worked so hard to achieve. Innocent people pay a tragic price.

Other thoughts:

I thought the scene building up to the fire was fantastic. That's one of the best scenes I've seen on TV in a while. It was perfection. Writing, directing, acting -- especially Reese. My goodness, when she yelled, "YES, YOU ARE!!!!!" even *I* was scared. The acting (with a small exception for KW) was the best part of the entire series, IMO. I would love to see nominations come awards time. 

[OtterMommy]

Just a reminder that, for the sake of this thread, the book does not exist and posts that reference the book will be removed.  If you'd like to talk about the differences between the book and the show, there are two places you can go.

1. Book Talk: The Book Club - if you've read the book and would like to discuss it with other readers, go here.

2. Little Questions Everywhere - if you have never read the book and have questions about it OR if you just haven't read the book and want to talk about the differences that are referenced in articles and such, go here.

Both threads are spoiler zones.

[alexvillage]

2 hours ago, kimchiarancini said:

Thank you for saying this - I haven't seen this brought up in any other thread. The lack of empathy for Bebe really shattered me when I started reading comments.

I guess the reactions might have been because the whole plot was poorly written. They just showed a black-white situation, with just a few lines to see how hard it is for a young mother with a language barrier (also badly portrayed, not consistent) to provide for a child while alone and not sure if she can ask for help because of her immigration status. But having Bebe happily sharing a car with the baby - and they made sure to have the shot of the baby as happy and comfortable with a stranger - was bullshit.

 

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

The story with Bebe and the baby was easily the worst one because clearly the writers had an agenda with it but they didn't manage to write it to fit that agenda well enough. I get that they want us to think bio moms are the best and that a Chinese baby should have a Chinese mom but, first of all, that's gross lol but also they didn't do anything to show us that a) Bebe was any better off now than she was when she felt so low that she abandoned her baby or that b) The McCullough's were evil. racist people that would be bad parents. The whole story failed on every level.

That was what I wanted to say and it is a more coherent comment than mine.

[kimchibucatini]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

 b) The McCullough's were evil. racist people that would be bad parents. 

But they *are* racist. They might be "well-meaning" racists but they are still racist.

Edited April 23, 2020 by kimchiarancini

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

21 minutes ago, kimchiarancini said:

But they *are* racist. They might be "well-meaning" racists but they are still racist.

And what evidence do you have that the McCoulloughs are racist? Nothing in the show even hinted at that.

[alexvillage]

Just now, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

And what evidence do you have that the McCoulloughs are racist? Nothing in the show even hinted at that.

Yeah, I think they were more clueless, not overtly racist, but racist in the sense that white people don't usually acknowledge their privileges - especially race privilege - and many feel like saviors. Not an excuse but many people are like this. They clearly loved the kid. I would compare the dynamics to people I personally know, they are evangelical people, really nice at first glance, who go to Africa and come back with adopted children who they clearly love but their reasons (according to my perception obviously) is that they needed the praise, to feel like they were saving the children. In the one case I am drawing the example from the children are now adults, also evangelical, and they seem comfortable in their skin, and they don't mention any desire of knowing their roots and the culture from the original countries.

[PepSinger]

4 minutes ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

26 minutes ago, kimchiarancini said:

But they *are* racist. They might be "well-meaning" racists but they are still racist.

And what evidence do you have that the McCoulloughs are racist? Nothing in the show even hinted at that.

Personally, I don't think the McCulloughs are racists. I would say that they are culturally ignorant. That can be addressed if they do love May Ling. If I were the judge in this case, I would've 1) ruled in their favor, and it wouldn't have taken me almost a week to do so and 2) make one of the conditions of adoption be that they engage in cultural education (i.e., having books related to Chinese culture, books on famous Chinese people, going to exhibits related to Chinese culture, etc...) The McCulloughs are one of those "I don't see color!" couples. While that needs to 100% be fixed, that is not going to be enough to keep them from adopting. At least, not in the 90s.

[blondiec0332]

46 minutes ago, kimchiarancini said:

But they *are* racist. They might be "well-meaning" racists but they are still racist.

 

16 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

Personally, I don't think the McCulloughs are racists. I would say that they are culturally ignorant.

I don't think they are racists.  The aren't "woke" but I don't think they would have ever not let Mirabelle know and learn about her culture. 

[Armchair Critic]

19 hours ago, snarts said:

This, and it drove me crazy when he went after Helen for changing the baby's name. Of course she re-named her, how the hell would she know the birth name of an abandoned baby???

I see no problem changing a baby's name. Now when this child is older and already knows their name that is a different story.

[marny]

54 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

 

I don't think they are racists.  The aren't "woke" but I don't think they would have ever not let Mirabelle know and learn about her culture. 

I don’t think it would have even occurred to them for her to learn about her culture if it hadn’t come up as an issue during the trial. While they wouldn’t prevent her from learning, they also wouldn’t even compute why the fortune cookies at the birthday party was tone deaf. Which is in line with the “we don’t see color” of many well-meaning White people. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by marny

[alexvillage]

6 minutes ago, marny said:

I don’t think it would have even occurred to them for her to learn about her culture if it hadn’t come up as an issue during the trial. While they wouldn’t prevent her from learning, they also wouldn’t even compute why the fortune cookies at the birthday party was tone deaf. Which is in line with the “we don’t see color” of many well-meaning While people. 

You are right about this and it is kind of impossible to speculate about characters of a book/show if we don't have a lot of background or real story to go by - the big flaw in this plot. But it is possible that the trial would make some people who don't see color at least be aware of what they are doing. I do believe it is a minority and it was a missed opportunity by the writers who didn't care much about the complications os such a storyline.

It is one of the hardest things to pick sides. I tend to favor Bebe because she was in an impossible situation but her situation didn't improve so what is the point? Love is not immune to resentment. The writers could have explored this better but they decided to go all weird "solutions" that please absolutely no one watching. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

The story with Bebe and the baby was easily the worst one because clearly the writers had an agenda with it but they didn't manage to write it to fit that agenda well enough. I get that they want us to think bio moms are the best and that a Chinese baby should have a Chinese mom but, first of all, that's gross lol but also they didn't do anything to show us that a) Bebe was any better off now than she was when she felt so low that she abandoned her baby or that b) The McCullough's were evil. racist people that would be bad parents. The whole story failed on every level.

I don't think that was the show's point.  The lawyer was making the case that Helen didn't even care about the baby's race, heritage, or background.  A lot of parents can care about their babies race without sharing the same race as their baby.  For example, some biracial or multiracial people are raised by one white parent who might be extremely conscious of their child's race and background and want to be educated on it.

When Pearl says to Mia, "Where did I come from?" Mia has a pretty good answer or can supply that to Pearl or put her in touch with the people who can answer that for her.  When Mae Ling grows up and says "Where did I come from?" the show kind of painted Helen as a person who didn't give a shit.  I think if the show went on as Helen winning the case I don't think she'd ever let Bebe see her kid again.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[kimchibucatini]

40 minutes ago, marny said:

I don’t think it would have even occurred to them for her to learn about her culture if it hadn’t come up as an issue during the trial. While they wouldn’t prevent her from learning, they also wouldn’t even compute why the fortune cookies at the birthday party was tone deaf. Which is in line with the “we don’t see color” of many well-meaning White people. 

100% agree with this.

Maybe it seems harsh of me to call them racist, but they are culturally insensitive and ignorant (willfully at times) of racial issues. The way I see it, they are in a position of privilege and they cherrypick when to acknowledge race/culture on their terms when it benefits them (incl. the birthday party; the many excuses Linda gives on the stand for not acknowledging May Ling's race like "they don't make Asian dolls!"). 

I also want to acknowledge something else I haven't seen discussed: We don't really know what Mark's deal is. When I say "they" (re: McCulloughs), I realized I'm mostly talking about Linda, because thinking back, Mark's most memorable scene to me is at the birthday party when he was trying to lure Bill in another room to watch sports. 

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, PepSinger said:

I thought the scene building up to the fire was fantastic. That's one of the best scenes I've seen on TV in a while. It was perfection. Writing, directing, acting -- especially Reese. My goodness, when she yelled, "YES, YOU ARE!!!!!" even *I* was scared. The acting (with a small exception for KW) was the best part of the entire series, IMO. I would love to see nominations come awards time. 

Seconded.

The whole story with Bebe and the baby just didn't have much nuance to it and just came off like "Bebe should have the baby because she's her bio mom/the same race as her and the McCullough's shouldn't because they're evil and racist" and that simply didn't work. The McCullough's were not presented as terrible, deeply racist people who stole Bebe's baby and they did nothing to show why exactly Bebe was now capable of caring for the child she abandoned before. Then they had Bebe actually kidnap the child and tried to present that as a good thing/a happy ending. It's almost comical in how bad it is lol.

[Enero]

On 4/22/2020 at 12:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

Bebe kidnapping baby Mirabelle to presumably raise her on the run out of her car doesn't exactly make me see her as a fit mother,

Several have made the assumption that Bebe will now be living out of her car with the baby. Though she doesn't have access to a potentially lucrative income like Mia, I don't think that final shot of Bebe means she's going to be living out of her car with the baby. Niagara Falls is about a three hour drive from Shaker Heights. I'm thinking she drove as far as she could, before having to stop to change and/or feed the baby.  What happens after that is anyone's guess. For all we know Mia could've loaned her a stash of cash to make run for it. Despite Mia's epiphany, I don't think that would be above her to do, to "help" Bebe take her baby. 

On 4/22/2020 at 9:02 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Izzy's not a strong enough person to make a go of it on her own. She'll be back home in a matter of weeks.

I don't think people understand the impact of Izzy hearing her mother scream that she never wanted her, which is essentially saying she never loved her. IMO Izzy won't be back. What is she coming back to? A home with siblings, save for Moody, who don't give a f*ck about her and a mother who sees her as a thorn in her eye? She'll live off the money that helped her get that bus ticket to whereever, before she ends up on the street. She seems just the type to end up in New York or Seattle, sadly strung out and living the life of a starving artist. 

At times, it was difficult to sympathize with Mia. She certainly wasn't perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but I found I was happy with the ending she got with Pearl. She wasn't the best mom, but her choices, though selfish were made out of love for her daughter. At heart, I think she was a good person. 

The same can't really be said about Elena. She was not only a selfish racist who made some terrible choices, but she was an extremely unethical and vindictive woman. That is not something that will be overcome with her being enlightened by her house burning down.  . 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Enero

[ifionlyknew]

20 minutes ago, Enero said:

Several have made the assumption that Bebe will now be living out of her car with the baby. Though she doesn't have access to a potentially lucrative income like Mia, I don't think that final shot of Bebe means she's going to be living out of her car with the baby. Niagara Falls is about a three hour drive from Shaker Heights. I'm thinking she drove as far as she could, before having to stop to change and/or feed the baby.  What happens after that is anyone's guess. For all we know Mia could've loaned her a stash of cash to make run for it. Despite Mia's epiphany, I don't think that would be above her to do, to "help" Bebe take her baby. 

 

 

It doesn't matter where Bebe lives with the baby. She is still a kidnapper and a fugitive. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Enero said:

 

 

[Enero]

4 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

It doesn't matter where Bebe lives with the baby. She is still a kidnapper and a fugitive. 

 

 

 

I didn’t say she wasn’t. I was just saying that her situation may not be as financially dire as some assume. 

[LeGrandElephant]

I see now that Lexie putting down Pearl’s name was important to the plot, But it still makes no sense that she put down a real person’s name at all instead of making one up. They should have shown her being required to use a school ID with no picture or something, to explain it. 

[Armchair Critic]

Tripp was taken aback by his mother but I think when Lexie said to burn the place down that he would have blown her off and ran out of the house searching for Pearl. Moody is more sensitive and Lexie was really upset so I can kind of see them doing it, but that doesn't seem like something Tripp would do.

[LeGrandElephant]

I guess I’ll have more thoughts later, but my immediate reaction is that the answer to the fire mystery isn’t working for me at all, I feel terrible for the McColloughs, and if you never get over the pain of losing a child then why is it ok for Mia to inflict that pain on the father of her child? And Elena is much worse and less self-aware and mature than I had realized earlier, mainly regarding how she treats Izzie. 
 

Is this show trying to make some kind of point that I don’t get or agree with? I found the journey and characters very compelling and interesting but I did not like the resolution. 

[Armchair Critic]

28 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I see now that Lexie putting down Pearl’s name was important to the plot, But it still makes no sense that she put down a real person’s name at all instead of making one up.

I went with a friend in the 90's and they didn't just let you walk in and get an abortion, you first had to meet with them and then you came back for another appointment to have it done. She gave a fake name but she had to give them a real phone number because they had to call you to verify, I know this because she gave them my phone number because she lived with her parents and I just acted like I was her when they called. It seems unrealistic how they portrayed it that you just walk in and get it done immediately and also that they have paper files sitting out like that.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Armchair Critic

[ShadowHunter]

Elena and Mia feel like daytime soap opera characters. They keep doing wrong and messing up. One character always gets forgiven no matter what they do. Blackmail, secrets, and plotting.

A few unanswered questions so I wonder if Hulu wants a S2. 

The acting was great especially from Reese. 

Bill I am glad he finally showed some backbone. I'm not giving Elena a pass but he had to know deep down back then she didn't want a fourth child.  Many characters living in denial here.

I see why the kids burned down the house because of Elena and not wanting to be her but wow they did not give a crap about Dad lol. They didn't stop to think.

I'm not into Pearl and Tripp as a couple so not upset about how they ended up. 

No sympathy for Bebe. Stealing the child now just ridiculous.  The baby cant stay in the car forever. Yes they probably won't but still who is going to watch her while she works??

Elena really did make everything worse. She didn't even know it. Damn she needs therapy.  

Edited April 24, 2020 by ShadowHunter

[Armchair Critic]

3 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

Stealing the child now just ridiculous.  The baby cant stay in the car forever.

Especially since she is 1 and walking around and called Linda "Mama", she's not a little infant who is just going to sleep in a carseat.

[LeGrandElephant]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:17 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

So was Pearl going to meet the Ryans, or Mia's parents? Thanks for making that totally unclear (unless we're supposed to remember the appearance of a house we saw a couple of times two full episodes ago).

I thought Mia suggested New York, meaning the Ryans, but Pearl said no. So the only other choice is the grandparents.

But if Mia actually took Izzie with them then they’ll definitely get caught, because Elena will be after them and she knows where the grandparents live. 

On 4/22/2020 at 3:32 AM, paulvdb said:

Her getting in Mia's car was a dream sequence. After she woke up it seems that she was in a bus.

I did not get that. Was that supposed to be confusing?

[Armchair Critic]

1 minute ago, LeGrandElephant said:

But if Mia actually took Izzie with them then they’ll definitely get caught, because Elena will be after them and she knows where the grandparents live. 

Izzy dreamed she got in Mia's car but it looked like she was actually on a bus.

[LeGrandElephant]

Amazing how people who marched for a woman’s right to choose are so upset over their daughter or their son’s girlfriend having an abortion. I would be glad the teen was able to make that choice. I’m not saying it’s not believable that people are that hypocritical about it but it is sad. 

[LeGrandElephant]

Did they have safe haven laws in the 90s? I think even if not, Bebe could have found an option that would make sure someone brought her daughter inside before she was frost bitten (eg, call 911 from a pay phone, or knock on the door and watch to make sure someone answers before running away). She could have asked for help from a church or something. Since her actions don’t make logical sense, post partum depression is more sympathetic than the idea that she made a logical choice to have someone else care for her baby, when in fact she left her outside in the cold. I feel bad for Bebe but I also feel like the adoptive parents bonded with the baby in good faith and did nothing wrong. I think the best solution would have been Bebe getting some regular visitation with the baby through the adoptive parents, and maybe they would have all agreed to that if Mia and Elena hadn’t been so busy escalating things. 

[Slovenly Muse]

I agree the show's message about parenthood and adoption is muddled, but I do think we are supposed to agree that the judge unfairly favoured the rich, white people, as always.  I would think that in a custody battle like this, when the adoption hasn't even been finalized, the judge would need a VERY compelling reason to keep the child away from its birth mother. Just thinking that she wouldn't be AS good as a rich family, because of their resources, isn't enough. The question isn't who is the "better" mother, or who could give May Ling/Mirabelle the "best" life, but rather who has the LEGAL RIGHT to raise this child, and that is a different issue. If there was evidence that Bebe was abusive, or an addict, or posed a danger to the child's safety, that would make sense. Abandoning her at a fire station doesn't establish a pattern of dangerous behaviour. It WAS the best thing for her to do when she couldn't care for her child, or present herself to the authorities to ask for help. Does Bebe still live in poverty? Yes, but even in America, where there is a strong tendency to commit minority children to foster care at an alarmingly inflated rate compared to white children in similar circumstances, poverty in and of itself is not a strong enough legal reason to separate parents and children. So, was Bebe right to kidnap May Ling? No! But she'll have to live with her choice, and its consequences, just as Mia did, and I think, rather than focusing on who's "right" or "wrong," the show is inviting us to live in the grey area a little, in the messiest parts of humanity, where we can disagree with someone's choices, but still empathize with why they made them. I think Mia's statement to Elena is a pretty strong thesis statement for this show: "You didn't MAKE good choices. You HAD good choices." Bebe was out of choices. It's not "right," but it's the natural consequence of an unjust system.

[OtterMommy]

I finally had a chance to watch this and, for reasons that I will discuss in another thread, I hated the ending.

But one thing stood out to me as a flub that really bugged me.  So, Elena told Pearl that her mother had told the Ryans that Pearl had died--but how did Elena know that?  She only spoke to Mia's parents and they didn't know that Mia had done that.  All they knew was that Pearl was being paid to be a surrogate and then she left their lives.

So, this was either really bad storytelling or there are some crucial scenes missing that explains that, which is really bad editing.

I also had a really hard time believing that Tripp, Moody, and Lexxie were capable of setting the fire.  I actually think I could have believed it if it had just been Lexxie, but only based on her last scene with Elena.  But Tripp and Moody never really had a big issue with their mother--their issues were more with each other and it just didn't make sense that they would set it.

[dmc]

14 hours ago, kimchiarancini said:

Thank you for saying this - I haven't seen this brought up in any other thread. The lack of empathy for Bebe really shattered me when I started reading comments. This may be in part because I read the book last weekend and then immediately binge watched the show (the portrayal differs and important details are left out). Also, my kids are still little, so I'm only a year out from the last time I had a newborn.

I'm privileged in that I didn't want for food or heat and I have a supportive family. I also had no issues breastfeeding, but if I did I had the means to buy formula. But I still suffered PPA along with pretty common but very powerful postpartum issues (lack of sleep, colicky baby, hormonal fluctuations, etc. etc.). I cannot imagine facing that on top of not being able to provide food for my child and being totally alone with no support. I could easily see how she'd make that desperate decision to ensure her baby was fed and then later regret it. 

It made me really uncomfortable how the show set up the situation to perpetuate the idea that biology is everything - it's obviously not, and I can see how this would tick off a lot of viewers. I think they totally missed the opportunity to put a spotlight on PPD/PPA (tragically under diagnosed) and the lack of postpartum support/care in this country. 

As far as race is concerned and comments on how the lawyer set up his argument - I think he was so direct in hammering the race issue home because unfortunately a lot of viewers would see zero problem with a white family using fortune cookies/panda bears to celebrate a one-year old Asian baby's birthday party as a "nod to the culture" (I may have misquoted Linda, but this was the essence of her testimony on it). And it IS problematic. Much of the court battle seemed to me to be a commentary on the b.s. notion of "colorblindness" that some white people use to signal that they are inclusive (Lexie uses the term when she's having the breakup fight with Brian in her bedroom; Linda basically says it doesn't matter that May Ling is Chinese). There are a lot better and more qualified sources than me who can describe why "colorblindness" contributes to racism. I applaud the show for acknowledging it, but I think using the lawyer to illuminate the issue is the reason there are multiple comments on here saying that his only argument for Bebe getting custody is that she is Chinese. 

 

 

This is essentially Elena's argument. And it doesn't address the question or issues surrounding why would a mother be driven to do this in the first place. 

Because despite circumstances, our choices have consequences.  Bebe was in a desperate situation but she still chose to abandon her child.  I am at a loss, do people think the child should just be kept at the fire station to wait for Bebe to be ready to come back for her?  She knew when she left her that she would end in up foster care or being adopted.  The people that adopted her didn't do anything wrong.  They gave a home to someone who in their mind didn't have one.  Bebe's circumstances or why she chose to give up her baby shouldn't be placed on them.  They were completely unaware of it.  I have empathy for her but my empathy doesn't extend to getting her child back.  

Edited April 24, 2020 by dmc

[ElectricBoogaloo]

17 hours ago, marshmallows said:

all for her own selfish "Pearl is MINE" bs. No, Mia Pearl in fact was NOT yours. You were a surrogate, not her mother. The Ryan's woman was her mother. Geeeez.

Yes, she served as the surrogate but Mia is also Pearl's biological mother. The Ryans didn't extract Mrs. Ryan's eggs, fertilize them with Mr. Ryan's sperm, and have a doctor implant the embryo into Mia. They squirted a turkey baster of his jizz into Mia in the bedroom of their apartment. They chose Mia to be the biological mother because she (supposedly) looked like Mrs. Ryan and they wanted their baby to look like them.

[alexvillage]

11 hours ago, Enero said:

Several have made the assumption that Bebe will now be living out of her car with the baby.

Key word: assumption - because the writers didn't give us anything and the last scene showing total happiness was not consistent with the story they gave us.

 

11 hours ago, Enero said:

I don't think people understand the impact of Izzy hearing her mother scream that she never wanted her, which is essentially saying she never loved her.

That is true. It was heartbreaking and it happens to a lot of people, some of them have time to take back the words and attempt to heal. Not in tis case

 

8 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Is this show trying to make some kind of point that I don’t get or agree with? I found the journey and characters very compelling and interesting but I did not like the resolution.

They left us with: some end up unhappy for life, some are lost for life and we don't know what to do with the others so we will not give them a conclusion because we are lazy and bad at what we do.

[peachmangosteen]

 

11 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I see why the kids burned down the house because of Elena and not wanting to be her but wow they did not give a crap about Dad lol. They didn't stop to think.

I just assumed they knew Bill wasn't home.

10 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I think the best solution would have been Bebe getting some regular visitation with the baby through the adoptive parents, and maybe they would have all agreed to that if Mia and Elena hadn’t been so busy escalating things. 

This.

9 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

... I think, rather than focusing on who's "right" or "wrong," the show is inviting us to live in the grey area a little, in the messiest parts of humanity, where we can disagree with someone's choices, but still empathize with why they made them.

I agree that's what the writers were going for but they severely missed the mark lol.

[ShadowHunter]

21 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

 

I just assumed they knew Bill wasn't home.

 

That may be but still it was his house. He worked for that house and he had his belongings in it. The whole coversation right about they only mentioned Elena.  

[peachmangosteen]

10 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

That may be but still it was his house. He worked for that house and he had his belongings in it. The whole coversation right about they only mentioned Elena.  

I didn't even think about that lol. Bill was such a non-entity, apparently even to his kids!

[tennisgurl]

The whole plot with Bebe and McCulloughs is interesting, because I dont really see anyone as the "bad guy" in the whole situation. Well, until the kidnapping that is. Until that, I could sympathize with both Bebe and the McCulloughs, while also feeling like both sides also made mistakes. 

I feel terrible for Bebe and how much she went through trying to take care of her daughter. She had no help, no opportunities, people treated her like crap, presumably because she was a poor undocumented immigrant, and I dont think that her choice to leave Bebe was out of lack of care for her daughter. I think she was trying to do what was best for her, and that leaving her was out of desperation and love. She was abusive or purposefully neglectful. However, her whole situation hasn't changed at all, and while she might be able to run off to Canada and get a job, would things really change that much for her from when she had to leave May Ling in the first place? Obviously not having money doesn't mean your a bad parent any more than having money makes you a good parent (hi Elena!) but if your struggling so much that you cant feed your child, thats a real barrier to parenting. Plus, you know, kidnapping a baby doesn't say much about a persons responsibility or morality. Unless the child is being abused or something (which I dont at all think was the case here) there is no good justification here, even if its understandable that is is that desperate, and it makes Bebes situation even worse now that she is going to live looking over her shoulder as a fugitive, even if she does cross the border. 

At the same time, I dont think the McCulloughs are the bad guys here either. They seemed to truly love little May Ling/Mirabelle, they were affectionate and attentive (especially Linda, who saw most with her) to her, faught desperately to keep her, May Ling/Mirabelle seemed to be attached to her adopted parents, and while the adoption wasn't finalized (why did they just bring that up in the last episode?) they did adopt her on good faith thinking that the baby had been given up by her bio parents (which was true, just more complex) and did everything on the up and up. Of course, they also were not particularly aware of the complications of an interracial adoption, hadn't made much of an effort to learn about her culture, and while I dont think that they were actually racist in a contious way, they did have a rather privileged lack of knowledge about the challenges that come with an interracial adoption and hadnt really thought about how being an Asian child raised in a white family in a mostly white neighborhood could affect her growing up. They seemed to have a very 90s style "I dont see color" kind of approach to race, along with than a few very questionable comments about Bebe that they and the rest of the Shaker Sorts made, which could easily lead to problems later on for May Ling/Mirabelle if she has no real understanding of her birth culture and her parents dont know how to deal with issues that she, as an Asian child, might have in a mostly white area that they probably never thought about. 

Of course, its possible that we are supposed to have mixed feelings and its all supposed to be ambiguous. Maybe the show isn't trying to tell us who we are supposed to be rooting for? I do wonder if the show does have someone we are "supposed" to be rooting for, and if we are, I think its supposed to be Bebe, considering how often people talk about how the McCullahs stole the baby and with the happy heartwarming music after Bebe kidnapped May Ling, and the real life issues surrounding children from underrepresented backgrounds being disproportionately taken from their families (which is an issue that is very much worth dealing with), but I dont know for sure. But it cant be that simple, as we see plenty of Linda being a good loving mom and see her grief and fear over losing her daughter, so I dont think we are supposed to see the McCullahs as the bad guys. So maybe its all supposed to be confusing and we are supposed to be left feeling like there was no real way for this to end well for everyone. Of course, there are also a lot there we are I think supposed to assume, or maybe that they think we might assume. Are we supposed to assume that the McCullahs are racist? That they are better parents? That Bebe is a better person to raise the baby because she is the bio mom and Chinese? That Bebe is the better parent? That the situation for Bebe will be different now? That the McCullahs would be bad parents? I really wish that we could have gotten more information about this story and about the people involved, because I feel like we are asked to assume things (I dont know what, but something) instead of being shown them. I have no clue if this is really good ambiguous writing, or if its rather crappy and confused writing of a sensitive and emotional topic, but I am still thinking about it, so thats...something I guess? 

[alexvillage]

10 hours ago, dmc said:

Because despite circumstances, our choices have consequences.  Bebe was in a desperate situation but she still chose to abandon her child.  I am at a loss, do people think the child should just be kept at the fire station to wait for Bebe to be ready to come back for her?  She knew when she left her that she would end in up foster care or being adopted.  The people that adopted her didn't do anything wrong.  They gave a home to someone who in their mind didn't have one.  Bebe's circumstances or why she chose to give up her baby shouldn't be placed on them.  They were completely unaware of it.  I have empathy for her but my empathy doesn't extend to getting her child back.  

Bebe didn't abandon the baby, she left at the fire station (I guess) because she knew someone would help the kid. Any mother who made this decision under the type of distress she was into would want the baby back if she saw a chance. It doesn't matter if it was a realistic chance, or if it is fair, but having a chance to do so, a mother would probably fight to get the baby back. Not everyone in this situation would stop to think about the consequences - where to live, how to support the kid - she would just fight one day at a time. 

But again, the way the story was presented to us was a complete mess and we can speculate several scenarios and possibilities and none will satisfy us because the writers chose to be crappy ones.

[marshmallows]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yes, she served as the surrogate but Mia is also Pearl's biological mother. The Ryans didn't extract Mrs. Ryan's eggs, fertilize them with Mr. Ryan's sperm, and have a doctor implant the embryo into Mia. They squirted a turkey baster of his jizz into Mia in the bedroom of their apartment. They chose Mia to be the biological mother because she (supposedly) looked like Mrs. Ryan and they wanted their baby to look like them.

It does not make her Pearl's mother in the sense of the term meaning who you're family is going to be. Here is a definition: Surrogacy is an arrangement, often supported by a legal agreement, whereby a woman agrees to bear a child for another person or persons, who will become the child's parent after birth. So no Mia is NOT her mother. And don't come back with biology, I am very well aware of how biology works. That's not what this is about. To me Linda was May Ling's mother, not Bebe. Biology isn't everything, and anyone who says it is, is basically spitting in any adoptive parent's face or a woman who could not carry her own child and used a surrogate.

[ljenkins782]

On 4/23/2020 at 12:39 PM, PepSinger said:

I thought the scene building up to the fire was fantastic. That's one of the best scenes I've seen on TV in a while. It was perfection. Writing, directing, acting -- especially Reese. My goodness, when she yelled, "YES, YOU ARE!!!!!" even *I* was scared. The acting (with a small exception for KW) was the best part of the entire series, IMO. I would love to see nominations come awards time. 

I have very little experience with Kerry Washington prior to this, but I found her to be a huge weak link most of the time. Her best scenes were when she was interacting with Elena's kids for some reason or telling off Elena, but with Pearl and when she was "closeup acting," I found her distractingly bad. She seemed to make the same few strange facial expressions and over-enunciated her words in an attempt to convey emotion and it really fell flat for me. I wish they had cast someone with more range.

Rosemarie Dewitt, though her role was limited, did a fantastic job and I hope she gets recognized. Reese Witherspoon was very good, but also pretty familiar in this role. It felt like a less redeemable version of her Big Little Lies character.

The actress who played Pearl was great and one of the only consistently sympathetic characters in the series. I also really liked Pacey (blanking on his real name) in this last episode, I wish he'd had more to do earlier on. 

[marny]

1 hour ago, marshmallows said:

It does not make her Pearl's mother in the sense of the term meaning who you're family is going to be. Here is a definition: Surrogacy is an arrangement, often supported by a legal agreement, whereby a woman agrees to bear a child for another person or persons, who will become the child's parent after birth. So no Mia is NOT her mother. And don't come back with biology, I am very well aware of how biology works. That's not what this is about. To me Linda was May Ling's mother, not Bebe. Biology isn't everything, and anyone who says it is, is basically spitting in any adoptive parent's face or a woman who could not carry her own child and used a surrogate.

The surrogacy on this series was fairly unique in that usually surrogacy does not involve using the surrogate’s own eggs. In most cases, there will be a separate donor’s eggs (either the mother or a third party) and the surrogate will solely serve as a womb. So in this case, biology absolutely plays a part. While of course adoptive mothers are real mothers, there’s a reason why we distinguish between the terms “biological mother” and “adoptive mother”- they are each a type of mother. To pretend otherwise ignores reality. Not to mention, if “motherhood” is defined as the person who loves and raises the child, then Mia is Pearl’s mother, even without the biological connection. 
 

The arrangement set up by the Ryan’s was extremely messy and left them with very few legal protections. There’s a reason why surrogacy isn’t usually done this way. 

 

 

[ShellsandCheese]

3 hours ago, marshmallows said:

It does not make her Pearl's mother in the sense of the term meaning who you're family is going to be. Here is a definition: Surrogacy is an arrangement, often supported by a legal agreement, whereby a woman agrees to bear a child for another person or persons, who will become the child's parent after birth. So no Mia is NOT her mother. And don't come back with biology, I am very well aware of how biology works. That's not what this is about. To me Linda was May Ling's mother, not Bebe. Biology isn't everything, and anyone who says it is, is basically spitting in any adoptive parent's face or a woman who could not carry her own child and used a surrogate.

My best friend has been a surrogate twice. Unless the Ryan's drew up a legal agreement and Mia gave up her parental rights, she is Pearl's mother. It doesn't matter that she agreed to have the baby for the Ryan's. Unless she gave up her parental rights legal, when Pearl was conceived, she is Pearl's mother not only biologically but in the eye's of the law. When my friend was a surrogate, even though her eggs were not used - she still had to have any parental rights terminated legally.

While I have empathy for the Ryan's, I don't really feel sorry for them. They took advantage of a desperate 18 year old girl and did not do everything above board. An 18 year old who had never even had sex. In most cases, you cannot even legally be a surrogate unless you've already given birth to at least one child. It's not surprising that things went belly up. 

[dirtypop90]

Maybe there's just something likable about Reese even when she's awful, but I liked Elena more than her awful kids.  And I'm not a white woman; can't relate to the character, at all.  I just could not bring myself to see those kids as anything other than spoiled, privileged brats who couldn't handle living on the other side (or that useless husband). So I felt nothing but anger at them for burning that house down.

I hated all the kids by the end of it, even Pearl.

I've disliked Mia since episode 1 and nothing changed.

Maybe a good thing I don't have kids. lol

I haven't watched a show in awhile where I didn't like a single character.  I care about none of these people.

Has anyone read "Such a fun age" by Riley Reid?  Smells like Reese's next project.

[Maysie]

On 4/23/2020 at 3:31 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

When Pearl says to Mia, "Where did I come from?" Mia has a pretty good answer or can supply that to Pearl or put her in touch with the people who can answer that for her.  When Mae Ling grows up and says "Where did I come from?" the show kind of painted Helen as a person who didn't give a shit.  I think if the show went on as Helen winning the case I don't think she'd ever let Bebe see her kid again.

I think that's a great point. Mirabelle is going to want to know who she was before she was Mirabelle - she will know she was adopted. And given how Helen responded on the stand, it sounded like they hadn't even considered that, which is kind of mind boggling. I think anyone who adopts a child outside of their race has to be ready for those questions and be sensitive to those issues and the McCulloughs didn't appear to even think it matters. Plus, now there's the whole media frenzy associated with this thing. I'm certainly not advocating for staying within your race when you adopt, etc., but I think when you adopt outside of your race, you need to be ready to engage in your child's ethnic world a little bit so they have an understanding of who they are and where they're from. It's basic respect, really.

Having read the book, I'm kind of meh on the finale. Elena was awful and hit new lows; I felt really badly for Izzy.  But other than that, I don't really care. I didn't really buy that all three of the kids set the fire and I don't feel like Elena had any kind of epiphany when she went to the apartment. Someone as self absorbed as Elena wouldn't get that by looking at Mia's art. I half expected Elena to basically trash the whole installation; that would have seemed more realistic.

Overall, I felt like the series started off strong but at some point it went off the rails. I can't put my finger on where, but I watched the final episode because I'd made it this far, I figured I'd see where they took it.