S05.E07: The Ballad of Roger Mac

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

There are a lot of double standards in this fandom when it comes to Roger and Jamie. Jamie gets a lot of leeway because it's understood that he's a man of his time.  Roger is expected to adhere to enlightened 21st century standards for the audience to like him. Jamie can say things like - 'you are a woman like no other Sassenach, but don't forget ...you are still a woman' and get away with it, but if Roger is angry about Brianna going to comfort her rapist and inform Bonnet that Jemmy is his son instead of Roger's then that's a hanging offense and he deserves to die.

So I doubt it's really people disliking the character for his flaws and more that unlike Sam Heughan, Rik Rankin is not considered hot enough for many of the audience to look past his flaws.

Yes I agree with your analysis. 

 

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I think Rik is plenty hot enough.  😉  

I think Rik is a handsome man, but the period styling/hair etc does him no favors. He’s much more attractive on his Instagram than he is in the show. Sam is down right gorgeous by ANY sort of beauty standard in my opinion and he’s supposed to be the hero of the story. 

[toolazy]

5 hours ago, AD55 said:

Count me among those who had no idea that was Graham McTavish playing William Mackenzie.

I completely missed it because I was out of the room for that part of it. That particular series of events is upsetting and I try to skip it.  Kissing or hugging another man's wife is one of the stupidest things that Roger has ever done, so I went into the kitchen while all that was going on. 

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Oh God, there is a plot  worse than last season's sold to the natives plot I hated? I hope this one gets resolved much sooner than the end of the season.  Poor Roger!!! 

I like Roger, & am surprised how much Roger hate there is in the nonbook readers thread (I have not read this book yet, but intend to). I think it is because people expect him to have a 21st century perspective, but it is only a 20th century one! Big difference! 

 

And not even a late 20th century perspective.  A lot of progress was made in the last 30 years of the 20th century that Roger was not privy to at this point.

[Cdh20]

9 minutes ago, toolazy said:

 

9 minutes ago, toolazy said:

 

And not even a late 20th century perspective.  A lot of progress was made in the last 30 years of the 20th century that Roger was not privy to at this point.

Yes, you are so right about that!

[GHScorpiosRule]

44 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Kissing or hugging another man's wife is one of the stupidest things that Roger has ever done, so I went into the kitchen while all that was going on. 

Seriously! You would think he would know by this point that you can't be hugging or kissing women not in your family in this time period! 

But I saw what Show, or rather, Toni Graphia (who wrote this episode, and who I'm not a fan of), did here with that line from Buck to Roger about taking his "hands off my wife."😒

50 minutes ago, toolazy said:

And not even a late 20th century perspective.  A lot of progress was made in the last 30 years of the 20th century that Roger was not privy to at this point.

Yeah. A lot of viewers (not just here) just can't seem to take off their 20th/21st century lenses when watching a show set 200 years in the past.

[cardigirl]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I agree with your analysis. 

 

I think Rik is a handsome man, but the period styling/hair etc does him no favors. He’s much more attractive on his Instagram than he is in the show. Sam is down right gorgeous by ANY sort of beauty standard in my opinion and he’s supposed to be the hero of the story. 

I guess so.  I like Sam as Jamie, right enough, but I don't really worship him, like so many do.  Not sure why.  I'm not in the group of people who are begging for more sex scenes though, either.  

Looked up the water hemlock that Claire asks Marsali about. 

 

 

 

Spoiler

I think I know who took it and for what.  It's extremely poisonous and I couldn't figure out why Claire would stock it, but apparently it can be used to treat migraine headaches and menstrual cramps as well.  Anyway, I bet Roger took it to commit suicide because he's lost his singing voice. 😞 ) 

 

[Scarlett45]

55 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Seriously! You would think he would know by this point that you can't be hugging or kissing women not in your family in this time period! 

I agree with you and @toolazy- a HUGE violation of social norms to embrace a woman not your wife or immediate family member. Goes to show that violation of social norms can be a danger to men as well as women.

Yes that William was a violent asshole, a more reasonable kind man would have been like “wtf are you doing to my wife?” But once explained that he saved his wife and child on the ship may have said “thank you” (while still keeping his wife close cause who goes hugging on other men’s wives in this time period??) And let him go on his way. 
 

Again- what happened to Roger wasn’t his fault, that Willam was a POS in any century but it was an example that he wasn’t being careful in not drawing attention to himself. 
 

Assholes exist everywhere, but social rules and expectations often dictate just how far they will go in treating others like crap, because they will think of their own skin before they go too far. 

[ferjy]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Sam is down right gorgeous by ANY sort of beauty standard in my opinion and he’s supposed to be the hero of the story. 

It’s all a matter of taste of course, but Sam doesn’t do anything for me. Now Richard Rankin. Ba-boom, ba-boom.

I find Richard a much better actor too. I wince often when Sam delivers his lines. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by ferjy

[anamika]

13 hours ago, ferjy said:

I find Richard a much better actor too. I wince often when Sam delivers his lines. 

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Those Jamie scenes with dead Murtagh was painful to watch because of the acting.  Catriona as Claire seemed more genuine in her grief.  Unpopular opinion I know, but yeah.

Catriona Balfe and Rik Rankin are the stronger actors in the show and maybe that's why I enjoy the few Roger/Claire scenes the best. They have an easy chemistry and seem like old friends. A big negative for Roger is that most of his scenes are with Sophie who looks perennially exhausted.

I find Claire to also be more interesting outside of Jamie. In the books, the story centers around Claire and we see things from her 20th century perspective - there's a lot of humor and charm in the way she tells the story that's missing on the show.

If this show was about Dr.Claire, medicine woman and Roger trying to open an university, I think I would enjoy it more.  Reminds me of Poldark where I wanted to see more of Dr.Enys and Caroline and all we got was Poldark and Demelza and more Poldark.

Edited April 1, 2020 by anamika

[Cdh20]

I am going to jump in about the acting-  I just rewatched this episode ( I am not working so have far too much time on my hands). Seriously that was a masterclass- Sam's face when Tryon put the coat on him, his sweet goodbye to Claire, his first weak "Help Me", his anger, grief, sadness ! I might have a little Sam crush but I still know good acting when I see it. I think Cait, & Rik are equally fantastic! Really everyone in this show is good. 

One of my friends just started watching recently & she texted me the other day to say how much she loves everything about it, & I was glad because I was telling her for that for years. There is  much TV out there now with amazing acting, so that this show is getting overlooked for awards, although praised by critics, is too bad! 

[sas616]

On 3/31/2020 at 10:25 AM, Cdh20 said:

Oh God, there is a plot  worse than last season's sold to the natives plot I hated? I hope this one gets resolved much sooner than the end of the season.  Poor Roger!!! 

I like Roger, & am surprised how much Roger hate there is in the nonbook readers thread (I have not read this book yet, but intend to). I think it is because people expect him to have a 21st century perspective, but it is only a 20th century one! Big difference! 

I too am surprised about the disdain for Roger that I see (especially in the non-book section).  They don't seem to realize that he is not a 21st centry man.  Roger was probably born in the 40s and raised by a his minister uncle in the 50s.  Those were very different times.   

[cesstar]

I'm a book reader who wasn't a massive fan of Roger in the books either (although I didn't dislike him) so for me it's not about the actors playing them. I think both actors do a great job with their characters. I think the Jamie character is possibly the harder one to get right given the huge amount of charisma he is supposed to project. You need to really believe why people would follow him into war, back in time etc. They hit the jackpot with Sam in my opinion.

Roger is certainly a man of his time. This is an interesting contrast with the other main characters who are all, to some extent, progressive for their respective eras. Perhaps that plays into the indifference for him, particularly with younger audiences? 

For me, I quite enjoy Roger in his plots away from Bree, for example when he is paired with Claire or Jamie. It is when he is with Bree that I find him at his most insufferable. Some of that is due to his attitude towards her, particularly when they first got together and then after the whole Bonet debacle but I also never get the impression that he is truly in love with her as a person. He talks of her beauty and her as a mum, but never really her as an individual. I'm never sure if this is a deliberate choice by the author or not. 

[rxpert14]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Those Jamie scenes with dead Murtagh was painful to watch because of the acting.  Catriona as Claire seemed more genuine in her grief.  Unpopular opinion I know, but yeah.

Catriona Balfe and Rik Rankin are the stronger actors in the show and maybe that's why I enjoy the few Roger/Claire scenes the best. They have an easy chemistry and seem like old friends. A big negative for Roger is that most of his scenes are with Sophie who looks perennially exhausted.

I find Claire to also be more interesting outside of Jamie. In the books, the story centers around Claire and we see things from her 20th century perspective - there's a lot of humor and charm in the way she tells the story that's missing on the show.

 

Agree with your unpopular opinion! I've been with the unpopulars for a while now. It's all good. We have snacks. ☺️

[SassAndSnacks]

8 hours ago, cesstar said:

For me, I quite enjoy Roger in his plots away from Bree, for example when he is paired with Claire or Jamie.

Yes!  I feel the same and couldn't quite put my finger on it.  

[ruby24]

On 4/1/2020 at 4:26 AM, anamika said:

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Those Jamie scenes with dead Murtagh was painful to watch because of the acting.  Catriona as Claire seemed more genuine in her grief.  Unpopular opinion I know, but yeah.

Catriona Balfe and Rik Rankin are the stronger actors in the show and maybe that's why I enjoy the few Roger/Claire scenes the best. They have an easy chemistry and seem like old friends. A big negative for Roger is that most of his scenes are with Sophie who looks perennially exhausted.

This is SO TRUE btw. I've been thinking this ever since last season. She looks genuinely, constantly fatigued, like it's a physical effort to walk, speak, do anything. At first I thought maybe that was a choice, like last season she decided to look pained and tired after the rape, because that would consistently be Brianna's new state of being after something so traumatic, but I don't know anymore.

[toolazy]

9 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Yes!  I feel the same and couldn't quite put my finger on it.  

Now that I think about it, that's how I felt about him when reading the books, too.  

17 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

This is SO TRUE btw. I've been thinking this ever since last season. She looks genuinely, constantly fatigued, like it's a physical effort to walk, speak, do anything. At first I thought maybe that was a choice, like last season she decided to look pained and tired after the rape, because that would consistently be Brianna's new state of being after something so traumatic, but I don't know anymore.

I think she really struggles with her accent and it affects her acting. 

[jmnf19]

On 4/1/2020 at 2:57 PM, Cdh20 said:

Seriously that was a masterclass- Sam's face when Tryon put the coat on

See, I thought that was overacting. I’m in the “I cringe” boat at Sam’s acting. (Sorry, my opinion.)

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, jmnf19 said:

See, I thought that was overacting. I’m in the “I cringe” boat at Sam’s acting. (Sorry, my opinion.)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, & no one is wrong! I appreciate that this message board’s posters are respectful that way!  Looks like many reviews for this episode are quite positive & complimentary of Sam

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/outlander/s05/e07

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, & no one is wrong! I appreciate that this message board’s posters are respectful that way!  Looks like many reviews for this episode are quite positive & complimentary of Sam

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/outlander/s05/e07

That’s probably more because of the shirtless scenes. 😜

 

[ferjy]

On 4/2/2020 at 5:26 PM, toolazy said:

Now that I think about it, that's how I felt about him when reading the books, too.  

I think she really struggles with her accent and it affects her acting. 

I agree. You can see she’s concentrating on it. And then she ends up slurring over her words and not perfecting it anyway. She may as well forget the accent altogether and focus on the acting. 😄

 

[Vanessa1214]

Speaking of Sam’s acting with his eyes, one of my favorite moments was the way his face transformed when Jamie finds out the Redcoats have Claire in The Reckoning episode. In a split second, he goes from anger at Willie to shock and worry when Willie says the Redcoats have her. The way his eyes suddenly widen at the word Redcoats shows both his concern for Claire and also the years of history he has with them and the knowledge that he’ll have to go rescue her from the very people who have already hurt him so much. It just gets to me. 

https://youtu.be/Z2JYw4koACY

[areca]

On 3/30/2020 at 10:45 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah that’s what the preview said. Two weeks is Easter Sunday. Why not skip that week?

You gotta be fuckin' kidding me.  They're having the Roger Comes Back from the Dead episode on Easter Sunday?  I'm not even Christian and that's some callous disrespect.  And some dickhead probably laughed about it and skipped this week on purpose.

[Ziggy]

3 hours ago, areca said:

You gotta be fuckin' kidding me.  They're having the Roger Comes Back from the Dead episode on Easter Sunday?  I'm not even Christian and that's some callous disrespect.  And some dickhead probably laughed about it and skipped this week on purpose.

That's hilarious!  I'm so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your post, because it would have been all over my shirt!

I hear what you're saying, but it doesn't bother me.  I've been Catholic my whole life, and my faith is really important to me.  Maybe I'm in the minority, but it doesn't bother me.

Before your post I did think, why would they skip the Sunday before Easter but have an episode on Easter Sunday?  I mean, families don't really gather today, but I would think lost of families might gather next week ... but not this year, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[toolazy]

On 4/4/2020 at 12:29 AM, ferjy said:

I agree. You can see she’s concentrating on it. And then she ends up slurring over her words and not perfecting it anyway. She may as well forget the accent altogether and focus on the acting. 😄

 

I wish she would because when she doesn't have to focus on dialogue, she's really good with her face and body.   Take the scene after the rape,: she went back to her room and Lizzie was trying to get her to talk and she wouldn't.  But her body language and her face perfectly depicted what she was going through.  It was an excellent piece of acting, and it was because she didn't have to really speak.  

7 hours ago, areca said:

You gotta be fuckin' kidding me.  They're having the Roger Comes Back from the Dead episode on Easter Sunday?  I'm not even Christian and that's some callous disrespect.  And some dickhead probably laughed about it and skipped this week on purpose.

Oh, I hope that's coincidental.  Because if it's not, it's incredibly lame. But I wouldn't put it past the current crop of showrunners.

[Lady Iris]

I had Starz free this weekend. Got to catch up on this season. I loved Murtaugh. I wish he could’ve just had a quiet life when he got to America. I’m sad he’s gone. 
 

Thsnk God for book spoilers here. I didn’t want to think Roger was really most sincerely dead. 
 

Watching Jamie being forced to put on that redcoat was like petting my cat the wrong way. Just wrongful. That was rough. 

[areca]

4 hours ago, toolazy said:

Oh, I hope that's coincidental.  Because if it's not, it's incredibly lame. But I wouldn't put it past the current crop of showrunners.

It's classic Weiss and Benioff.  That shit's endemic out there in Holly-out-of-touch.  "It'll make the Roger becomes a minister plot line so much more!"

Barf.

Edited April 6, 2020 by areca

[Ziggy]

4 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

really most sincerely dead.

Tracy and Carol on My Outlander Purgatory kept saying that 🙂

[SassAndSnacks]

Watched this one again last night.  Now that I realize who is playing Buck, I could actually focus on the fight scene between Roger and him, instead of sitting there trying to figure out why that guy looked so familiar.  That scene was so very good.  Further evidence that Rik Rankin is the jam whenever he shares the screen with a character not named Bree.  

The fight rolled right into Claire's "JHRC!" at seeing Jamie in the red coat, making for 5 minutes or so of completely epic Outlander.   

[CountryGirl]

I knew Murtagh was living on borrowed time, but that little part at the end where Claire brought the sheet up, under his chin, and paused to look at him, seemingly sleeping, not wanting him to be gone, and then covering his face a moment later was my undoing.

RIP, you silver fox.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Maybe we'll

get Ghost Murtagh?

 After all, in the buiks, whenever

Jamie was thinking things over, he'd talk to "Murtagh" wishing he was still around to give him advice. I could have sworn his ghost did show up one time.

[nodorothyparker]

Good episode, but I've generally liked this show's battle episodes and think they've done fairly well with making them about the people involved instead of grand spectacle that's often just impossible to follow.  While a lot of it did have a certain paint by numbers quality about it in that we knew Murtagh wasn't likely to be walking away from it, it was still effectively done.  I'm one who thinks Sam often falls into the serviceable level of acting and sometimes skates on his sheer charisma and chemistry with other actors, but he was devastatingly solid here, first seemingly like his whole body was having an allergic reaction to being forced into the hated red coat and then in his initial inability to acknowledge Murtagh's death.  His speech to Tryon about how history remembers these things was also terrific.

I'm always a sucker for those moments the show pauses to remember that it is in fact a show that centers significantly around time travel.  Roger pleading in vain with Murtagh to wait so he could be on the winning side was nicely done, but what really sold me was the scene following Bree's dramatic Paul Revere ride.  Putting aside the contrivance of her "suddenly" remembering at least the broad strokes of the battle of Alamance, I kind of love that she still can't seem to fully wrap her mind around the butterfly effect of their trying to alter known historical fact while her parents who have already tried and failed on that point humor her like she's 5 but then send Roger off to do exactly that anyway.

Hi, Graham McTavish. Nice to see you again.  If the show is faithful to the book, I want to say it will be awhile before we see the character again but now I wonder how or if having McTavish play him here might have any bearing on that.  Yeah, Roger was definitely thoughtless in his familiarity with his however many greats grandmother, but you know it's got to be a serious head trip suddenly running into your ancestors like that even before you get into the messiness of your however many greats grandfather kicking your ass.

[WatchrTina]

I just tuned in to the marathon in the run up to tonight premiere of new season and caught this episode.

Oh. My. God.

This episode is just so GRUELING.  Murtagh killed, Roger hanged, and Jamie forced into a red coat (for a while at least.)  I know the story of course.  I've read the book and watched this episode before more than once.  But it's been a while so I had managed to forget some of the most torturous aspects.

Fasten your seatbelts for tonight!

Edited March 7, 2022 by WatchrTina