S05.E08: Romeo V. Juliet: Dawn of Justness

[MarkHB]

Quote

The Legends continue their hunt for pieces of the Loom of Fate and find themselves face to face with William Shakespeare. Ray, Nate, Rory, Constantine, Charlie and Behrad stay a little longer on the mission making things worse after lying to Sara. Meanwhile, Ray and Nora make another big life decision that leaves the team surprised and best buds, Nate and Ray, on the outs.

 

[scarynikki12]

 

[scarynikki12]

The glare Con gave Sara for that “accent” cured my allergies and extended my life. I’m going to put it on my go to gif list.

Belated Bachelor and Bachelorette party time! 

Zari’s Glam Time while everyone needed to pee was delightful.

I love Gideon helping urge Ray to tell Nate he and Nora are leaving.

I’ll admit that I enjoyed watching everyone act out Nate’s various plans to get the ring.

I kind of want the stripper to stick around. I love his concern at Shakespeare changing Romeo and Juliet into a superhero play. He can hang out in the corner wearing his fireman suit and be the peanut gallery.

Hee Sara lecturing while sloshed.

Sara helping Ray have perspective and a private goodbye was perfect.

Of course the Legends reboot Shakespeare’s career by performing the play. And they get really into it. Even Mick and Con!

Tala freaking NAILED Juliet in the balcony scene (not that there was any doubt) and I’m now low key shipping Zari and Con. Or at least the friends with benefits I was denied with Sara and Snart. 

I wish we had a one on one goodbye between Ray and Mick but I’ll settle for Mick being a new Shakespeare fanboy, letting Mona hug him, and drinking the green juice with the team. Ray would be proud.

To Ray! 

[Primal Slayer]

I dont know....as Ray's last episode....I didnt enjoy it that much. 

[shantown]

All I wanted was Ray and Nora’s parting shot to be them walking off happily together. Instead we had to coddle Nate one more time. Ugh.

[Lantern7]

Well, that was sweet. And insane. Ray gets to go off to live a normal life with Nora . . . but not before almost destroying Western literature with most of the team. For those guys, that's about a good of a note to go out on.

And we have to say goodbye to the Time Bros. I get the criticisms of Nate, but he and Ray were so sweet together . . . up to and including the imaginary gratuitous rappelling sequence.

Anyone want to bring up how only men performed in plays back then? Yeah, me either. And "rebooting" Romeo & Juliet does seem like an idea Ray would have to save the day. Maybe they'll keep his chore wheel and card game. Then again, they kept the Prof. Stein puppet that Snart-X made, and that didn't turn out so well.

Not really feeling the Astra subplot. Also: I don't really have a fixed recall on looms, but I don't think a ring was involved.

Great that Mona showed up without transforming. And I like her befriending the grumpy pyromaniac bear that is Mick.

Stripper on the Waverider? Why the hell not?!?

[Josh371982]

57 minutes ago, shantown said:

All I wanted was Ray and Nora’s parting shot to be them walking off happily together. Instead we had to coddle Nate one more time. Ugh.

Yep all about Klemmers favorite character 

[Jediknight]

The Time Bros are no more.  Props to the show for having 2 guys admit they love each other, without any romantic or "not in that way" stuff.  It's 2 best friends, who have become brothers admitting they love one another.

Of course Zari is the only one that doesn't have to go to the bathroom after drinking Ray's green juice.  She probably drinks stuff like that all the time, but the rest of the Legends don't, so it's not a shock to her system like it is for the others.

Nora spent most of her life as host to a demon, surrounded by people who just used her, but with the Legends she found a group that liked her for who she was.  It was nice to see her get one last night of fun with Book Club before she and Ray left.  Nora deserved it.

Legends won't be the same without Ray.  He's been there since the beginning, now it's only Sara and Mick as the OG Legends.

[Starfish35]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The glare Con gave Sara for that “accent” cured my allergies and extended my life. I’m going to put it on my go to gif list.

That was hilarious. “And frankly offensive.” I laughed so hard.  That and everyone racing for the one bathroom at the end. 🤣

Edited March 18, 2020 by Starfish35

[thuganomics85]

Kind of avoided talking about Ray (and Nora's) exit in previous episodes since I didn't want to be too off topic, but it looks like it has happened for now.  On one hand, I'm glad he at least got a happy ending and seems to have found peace.  On the other hand, I really do feel like the show just won't be quite the same without him.  If I was forced to choose, I'd probably say that Sara, Mick, and now Zari are my favorite Legends, but Ray really did end up being one of the most significant characters on the show.  As cheesy as it could be, he really was the heart in a lot of ways, and I worry that his absence will have more of an impact compared to the other ones that have left.

That said, I loved the episode and thought it was both hilarious and touching at various times.  Watching the Legends not just helping William Shakespeare, but it ending with them actually performing Romeo & Juliet in order to save the timeline, was the best.  I loved how much everyone got involved (even Mick, despite not being impressed with the story involving those "Italian kids"), but no surprise, Zari/Tala Ashe was the best as Juliet.  And, yeah, intentional or not, she and Constantine/Romeo did have some chemistry going there, which I guess isn't too surprising since Ashe and Matt Ryan both tend to work well with whoever they are opposite of.

Hey, Mona is back and actually not annoying!  She was pretty enjoyable being all excited about book club, and giving Mick advice (he even consented to a hug!)

I would like to pretend that I wasn't moved by all of the Ray/Nate stuff, but that would be a lie.  Yes, I do think Nate can be obnoxious from time to time and I did wish they spent more time with Ray's other relationships, but dammit, I really do think these guys are/were one of the best "bro" duos ever, and both Brandon Routh and Nick Zano really sold their friendship.

Continuing to hope that Behrad will be upped to a regular going forward or next season.

So, Astra now knows that Constantine is going after the Loom of Fate, and is likely going try to beat him to it.

Matt Ryan definitely wins reaction shots of the night, with both his looks during Ray/Nate's goofy initial plan, and Sara's horrible attempt at a British accent.

I do question the Waverider only having one bathroom, but that was a funny gag.  I did notice Charlie was definitely crushing on Zari once she got out.

Fare thee well, Ray Palmer and Brandon Routh.  To think that I found him obnoxious at times when he first showed up on Arrow, but Routh and this show's writers managed to somehow turn all of that around.  Well done.

Edited March 19, 2020 by thuganomics85

[darkestboy]

A bit of a rushed ending for both Ray and Nora but I still liked it. The show will lose something after Ray's departure tbh.

Ray and Nate's bromance had it's moments and I did love the last scene when they all badly reacted to the green juice.

Loved the use of Shakespeare in this one, the take on Romeo & Juliet was hilarious as were the bachelor and bachelorette parties respectively.

Coin Maker will likely be one of Charlie's sisters. She didn't have to do much to get Astra to work against Constantine either. 

Nice scenes with Mick and Mona in this one too and can we bring stripper guy back too? 8/10

[shantown]

Also, Gideon's one single tear as she said goodbye to Dr. Palmer! 
 

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

but no surprise, Zari/Tala Ashe was the best as Juliet.  And, yeah, intentional or not, she and Constantine/Romeo did have some chemistry going there, which I guess isn't too surprising since Ashe and Matt Ryan both tend to work well with whoever they are opposite of.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Zari/Constantine romance.

[Bruinsfan]

I would—Constantine's romances usually end very badly for the other party!

[AD35]

I'm holding out hope for at least a brief appearance from Ray in the future if only to patch up his his friendship with Nate.

[Alice Mudgarden]

I love Zari calling Gideon "Gidget".

I'm gonna miss Ray and his sunny optimism. We knew this was on the horizon, but it didn't make losing him suck any less. And his tears at the end... dammit, Brandon Routh.

[tennisgurl]

I knew that Ray and Nora were leaving, but much like Ray, I was putting off actually dealing with it for as long as possible. The show just wont be the same without Ray, our sweet Ray of Sunshine with chore wheels and pep talks who can science his way out of anything and is the sweet squishy heart of the team. I still cant believe that when Ray was on Arrow I couldn't stand him when he first showed up, but now I cant imagine an Arrowverse without him. While we haven't known Nora for as long, she has been one of the shows most successful redemption stories, and has become such a likable and sympathetic character who has found people that really care about her, not as a vessel or as a witch but as a person, and she and Ray make for such a delightful paring. I am going to miss them so much. I am glad that they at least gave them a happy ending and didnt kill them off for the sake of drama or whatever and that they will presumably get a happy ending, but I am still not ready to say goodbye. 

Despite my sadness, this was a good episode, even if I wanted more Ray and Nora and more closure for their character arcs. The Shakespeare stuff was fun, and while it isnt exactly the classics that will make an enormous impact on the western cannon...the superhero plays that Shakespeare were writing did sound kind of awesome. I would watch the absolute crap out of Romeo, Juliet, Viola, Sebastian, and Puck teaming up to take on King Richard, get on that Netflix! And the Constantine and Zari were actually a pretty solid Romeo and Juliet! They also had some real serious chemistry for a minute there, is that possibly something?!

Mona was actually not annoying, so that was a nice change of pace! It also led to some nice moments with Mick, especially him being nervous about being a father, given his own bad family history, so thats always nice. 

Brandon and Nick really sold the hell out of their last hug goodbye, I could really feel all of those feels. I always love how openly affectionate they are and how easily and emotionally they could say how much they love each other. No stupid "not that way bro" stuff, they just really really love each other as friends, and while I do feel like Rays friendship with Nate kind of overtook his relationships with everyone else, I do really love their friendship and how much they un-apologetically love each other. I was also glad that Ray and Sara got some nice scenes together, I always like their dynamic. 

*Sniffle* There is more to say, but...Ray and Nora...

Edited March 19, 2020 by tennisgurl

[twoods]

I love this show because of all the amazing character interactions. I always felt a hole when prior characters left like Jax, Stein and Snart because of their relationships with the other Legends, and Ray is no exception. His bromance with Nate was so cute and will be missed along with his happy attitude towards everything. It definitely got dusty at the end. 

[Bill1978]

Is it weird that I found Ray saying goodbye to Gideon and her tear to be quite moving. I am glad they put that scene in because Gideon is part of the team and it would be easy to forget that AI (or whatever she is) have feelings too.

Is there a way to have the Loom of Fate plot without Astra, cause seriously I don't care about that plot even though it is driving this season. Always seems to be the way I don't care about the big overarching arc of the season. I'm just hear for the fun.

[MissLucas]

That was great... and painful. Of all the times to lose one of the most optimistic characters on tv 😢

For a silly show about time-travel LOT sure knows how to break my heart over and over again (I still miss Rip and Snart). But at least Shakespeare's canon was saved.

*small voice* Can we at least keep the fireman/stripper?

Edited March 19, 2020 by MissLucas
So upset got characters mixed up, sorry Mick.

[bettername2come]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

small voice* Can we at least keep the fireman/stripper?

I have a feeling Ava wouldn't allow that fine gentleman to stay on the ship judging by the way she pulled Sara back while she was throwing cash at him.

It's so fun to see the Legends have fun. And they were not at all subtle in saying just because you love the characters doesn't mean you can just keep them forever. I did love the bro-hug. Nate's hit or miss for me, but I always love his friendship with Ray. Ray's earnestness and optimism brings out a great side to him, imo.

Is Wild Dog joining the team or something? The way they mentioned picking him up and his role offscreen last week I'm half-convinced, but that makes no sense. He has a kid to take care of. 

A good exit. I think it's the best of the non-death exits for me. Definitely better than the flying chicken people got.

[Bruinsfan]

I get the meta budget reasons that Ray and Nora had to go, but in-story it feels like they jumped the gun. There should have been a number of episodes with conflict arising from Nora trying to make living on the Waverider work with her metaphysical duties and running into obstacles, rather than the impetus for the decision coming from her father after one evening's observation of her new life. As it is, it feels like Dahrke looked at all his former enemies helping Nora as her friends, said to himself "well, Nora's in love with Ray so I can't get rid of him, but she needs to be isolated from all this loyalty and support, STAT!", and Ray was gullible enough to buy in completely.

[ketose]

On 3/20/2020 at 12:41 PM, Bruinsfan said:

I get the meta budget reasons that Ray and Nora had to go, but in-story it feels like they jumped the gun. There should have been a number of episodes with conflict arising from Nora trying to make living on the Waverider work with her metaphysical duties and running into obstacles, rather than the impetus for the decision coming from her father after one evening's observation of her new life. As it is, it feels like Dahrke looked at all his former enemies helping Nora as her friends, said to himself "well, Nora's in love with Ray so I can't get rid of him, but she needs to be isolated from all this loyalty and support, STAT!", and Ray was gullible enough to buy in completely.

Whatever doesn't put Ray in the same category as Professor Stein. Also, since there are budget issues, can Gideon just be a person on the ship, like Rommie or Rimmer or the EMH? Amy Louise Pemberton is already getting a paycheck.

[Cthulhudrew]

Can we get the real Zari back already? I'm really tired of Alt-Zari-go.

EDIT: Also, Tala Ashe had more chemistry with Matt Ryan in a single scene than she's had with Nick Zano in two seasons. NZ is terrible.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Cthulhudrew

[MarkHB]

On 3/17/2020 at 10:00 PM, scarynikki12 said:

To Ray! 

To Ray! 

People talk a lot o smack about Season 1, but a comment during the re-watch reminded me that one thing they did that year was to make almost every episode a two parter, so they had to build only half the sets. I wouldn't mind them returning to that if it gave them more of a budget for the cast and effects.

Really, the thing that drew me to the show in the first place was the Atom and all the cool stuff they could potentially do with him. But, after Season 2 and excepting the crossovers he barely put the suit on. I'll keep watching but it's more because I'm a completist.

[questionfear]

On 3/17/2020 at 10:53 PM, Lantern7 said:

 

Not really feeling the Astra subplot. Also: I don't really have a fixed recall on looms, but I don't think a ring was involved.

Charlie explained that-the pieces of the loom were transformed into other items, if mortals looked directly at unaltered loom bits their brains would melt. It's the same explanation she gave for why you can't see her true Greek Fate form. 

[statsgirl]

As much as I loved the previous episode and thought it was just about perfectly the LoT that I want (except for Damian Darhk killing himself), I really disliked this one.

As a fan of Upstart Crow which intelligently and lovingly mocks Shakespeare, I thought they did Shakespeare terribly here. It was like it was written by someone who was forced to study Shakespeare in school and has resented it every since.  And I couldn't figure out who that character everyone was afraid of was. Turns out this Philip Henslowe was a creation of Shakespeare In Love; the real Henslowe have very little to do with Shakespeare and Shakespeare isn't even mentioned in his diary.  So the episode's writer ripped off a not-factual movie instead of doing real research. i suppose if I weren't watching the same thing done extremely well this bargain basement story wouldn't have bothered me so much.  Okay, I lie, it still would have bugged me.

 But what I really hated was Ray going around and saying that leaving the ship was the best thing for him and Nora, knowing that Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford didn't really want to go. That was just cruel, like having someone dig their own grave.

I understand that Victor Garber and Wentworth Miller wanted to leave the show but Routh and Ford didn't. Of the new characters they've brought on, the only ones I genuinely like are Zari and Constantine. With Ray and Nora gone now, and Mick barely on any more, it seems like there is a drip, drip, drip of reasons not to care so much.