S06.E14: Death of the Speed Force

[Trini]

Kid Flash (guest star Keiynan Lonsdale) returns to Central City with a Zen attitude and new tricks up his sleeve. While thrilled to see his family again, Wally confides to Barry that he returned because he thinks there is something wrong with the speed force. Meanwhile, Cisco returns from his fact-finding mission across Earth-Prime.

Brent Crowell directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen & Emily Palizzi Gilbert.

Airdate: 3/10/2020

[Maverick]

 The writing on this show.  A lot of things are Barry's fault, but why should he be taking the blame for saving all of existence from literal oblivion.  Whatever. 

[UNOSEZ]

Strong episode having wally back was fun... That trick with the copter and with the flower were awesome and its cool he recognized something was off with his sister.. I think others will start to notice more and more now... 

[bettername2come]

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

 The writing on this show.  A lot of things are Barry's fault, but why should he be taking the blame for saving all of existence from literal oblivion.  Whatever. 

Even when Barry does right he's wrong.

I do love the chemistry between Tom Cavanagh, Grant Gustin and Carlos Valdes. And Thawne is much more enjoyable than Nash. I enjoyed watching Thawne and Cisco's powerless fight. He's had that coming for a long time. But I miss the days where Thawne had the screwed up love/hate relationship with them both. Now he just wants to slit Barry's throat? That's so pedestrian.

Grant Gustin's definitely poised to take Jensen Ackles' mantle of "CW's Best/Prettiest Crier."

Didn't care for villain of the week. C'mon, Cisco didn't even bother with the name. Didn't like Cisco calling Caitlin "Cait." He's never once done that in the past 6 years. 90% sure. But hey, at least they let her be a bioengineer instead of just letting Frost have all her knowledge. And I'm sure Danielle Panabaker would prefer to waste less time in the makeup chair during her pregnancy.

I was glad Cecile was the one tasering Thawne, because I thought it would be Kamilah, and I really don't feel like watching Cisco get saved by his girlfriend who I care very little about. Although I did care that she got blasted away into the Mirrorverse. Or I assume she did.

[quarks]

(head in hands)

I honestly don't know where to begin with this one.

Good things:

1. Caitlin's bulky clothing this episode? Did a much better job of concealing DP's pregnancy (I am no longer worried that she's carrying quintuplets) and seemed much more suited to what Caitlin the character would be wearing in Star Labs.

2. Ok, so now we have two shows claiming that multiverse doppledangers will get neurologicial issues and die, so, some consistency here. Care to explain things, Supergirl?

Literally everything else:

1. Let me get this straight: Wally notices something is off with Siri. Cisco's girlfriend notices something is off with Siri even before the photo deletion issue. Siri then makes an incredibly un-Irislike speech to Barry that is a complete reversal of everything Iris has been saying for the last three or four years to Barry. And yet somehow, I'm expected to believe that Barry hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris? That Joe hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris? That Cecile, whose powers specifically cover this, hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris?  Or even, for that matter, Caitlin - who, yes, is never in the same room alone with Iris if the two of them can help it, but who did notice that something was just mildly off with Cisco.

Come on, show.

2. Speaking of that camera incident, though, up until now, Siri has been shown as equally intelligent and savvy as Iris. Which means that she would and should have found another way to deal with Cisco's girlfriend.

3. Uh, Flash writers? Did you not watch the crossover episodes? Much though I personally like to blame Barry Allen for everything, those episodes were pretty clear - Crisis was not Barry's fault, and increasing Barry's power and sending him into the Speed Force was Spectre Oliver's fault, not Barry's fault.

That said -

Hey, show, is it too much to ask that you stop blaming Oliver for things, especially now that his show is off the air?

4. Liked having Wally back and his whole embrace of Buddhism was delightful, but, it was combined with just a complete personality whiplash. One minute, he's then, and the next minute, when the plot demanded that he not be zen, he wasn't zen. Just clumsy writing all around.

5. So Reverse-Flash somehow didn't notice that he was running at normal speed instead of full speed when he first attacked Cisco?

6. Very dull villain of the week. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

Did they leave the speedforce jump start cables back in the old multiverse ?  

So, is Camilla in the mirror universe now ?

Why did the picture in the camera suddenly turn to show Siri instead of Iris ?
And how did Siri know what Camilla saw in the camera ?

[Lantern7]

Joe: I heard you were hard on Barry today.

Wally: He destroyed the Speed Force! I don't get the physics, but you know what I would be without my powers? Some dork that spouts Zen at parties and gets his ass kicked by alpha dudes that want to keep their girls.

Joe: Kid, this is Barry. You think he doesn't feel bad enough?

Wally: I don't know. Maybe he doesn't grasp the enormity of his actions.

(CUT TO: Barry in the Gideon Room, in the fetal position, softly sobbing to himself as Siri fills his head with thoughts of a "normal" life)

I like Wally, and I can appreciate his outlook . . . but I think this was the death knell for any hope that Max Mercury could be worked into the series. In the comics, he was the original "Zen Master of Speed." He also communed with the Speed Force . . . and now Wally has/had a connection that went beyond "Barry's Mom." But it looks like the gang at STAR Labs will be making their own Speed Force, so . . . yeah. Problem solved.

By the way, what did Wally go in the cold intro? I get that Turtle Too was aging the helicopter, and Wally . . . disassembled it as it was falling? Neat trick, great visuals.

2 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

So, is Camilla in the mirror universe now ?

Looks like. And I'm thinking Siri fucked up, because that's one more friend for Iris and Eva to help break free.

Not getting the "possession" of Nash. It can't be biological because Eobard only posed as Harrison Wells.

[phoenics]

I really enjoyed this episode... that RF reveal was very, very good... though I laughed at the part where he realized he had no power and was jabbing at Cisco's chest like Loki poking Tony Stark's arc reactor thingee.

I LOVED seeing Wally!!!  That helicopter rescue was just SO BADASS!  And then him doing all that cool stuff with the speed force (lightning lotuses, splitting off into separate Wallys - holy sh!t) was AWESOME!!  And then I was like cool - Wally's gonna teach Barry some new tri - speed force dies - cks - wait what?  The Speed Force is dead?

I do like what's happening at the end of the episode - with Barry thinking how to generate his own alternate speed force... I was kinda hoping that was where they were gonna go.

Now to Siri - she feels like she's simultaneously a duplicate clone of Iris and ALSO an extension or is linked to Eva?  Because when Eva freaks out or something really radical happens to Eva emotionally (thinking about her husband leaving her and shaking) or physically (burning her arms), it also happens to Siri.  So what is Siri really?  An automaton/clone that Eva controls somehow?  Could she be separated from Eva's control and go rogue?

And where did she send Kamilla?  Will she end up where Iris is?

Also - thank goodness Wally knew something was off with Iris.  I assume they are gonna claim Barry was too preoccupied with everything else going on for him not to pay enough attention to the flags going up about Siri?

I just worry that the longer this goes on without Barry getting a clue, the worse it's gonna be emotionally for Iris when she finally gets out - especially if she gets out and he still doesn't know Siri is not her.  I feel like that could have lasting effects on Iris and her trust in Barry.

[adora721]

I wish Joe would have given Wally his father's watch in this or another episode, but that's in Barry possession.... sigh. Really loved having Wally back; such a delight and a joy to have his presence. And the writing respected Wally and didn't disappoint. I hope he'll return in the future.

Again, Caitlin continues her hypocrisy streak.  She chides Cisco about not using her bioengineering skills to work on stopping Turtle 2 after she didn't use Cisco's mechanical engineering skills to control Killer Frost and used tech from Amunet Black and worked in human trafficking instead.

I feel like Thawne mentioning him making his own speed force was a trap to goad Barry into doing likewise. I mean, Thawne doesn't seem to have his negative speedforce either. I'm sure Barry's artificial speedforce is exactly what Thawne needs to restore his own powers. Will Barry never learn?

 

 

[Trini]

Wow - didn't think the title of this episode was going to be literal. How many times are they going to ask Michelle Harrison back just to do another death scene??

I have some issues with the plots (BTW, there was a new writer for this one), but let me start with some positives.

Loved seeing Wally/Kid Flash again! Missed you Keiynan! The opening scenes showing off his new uses of his powers were impressive. I liked that he got one-on-one scenes with Barry, Joe, and (mirror😔-) Iris. He noticed something off about Siri, so hopefully Barry and Joe can piece things together soon.

[Comic reference:]

Spoiler

And hey, at least Wally's twins exist in one timeline!

Yay! Cisco is back! Atlantis exists on Earth-Prime - will they ever bring in any Aquaman-related characters? Liked that he was able to get a few punches in on RF.

Lightning Rod mention from Iris! Please let this come into play later with Barry.

Barry's CSI lab sighting!

Not so great stuff:

They set up clues beforehand that there was something wrong with the Speed Force, but to find out it was dying AND have it die in the same episode seemed like bad and hasty decision to me. Something that big shouldn't have been a one-episode plot.

Umm - clearly Spectre killed the Speed Force. (Thanks, Oliver!) I mean, they went out of their way in Crisis to say that using it was the only way to escape the Vanishing Point and defeat the Anti-Monitor. So I don't know why the writers are a) using that particular plot point from Crisis, b) to kill the Speed Force , c) and blaming it all on Barry. It just didn't make sense to me. No matter how many time they kept repeating it.

And the Speed Force just ... dying didn't make sense to me either. (How are they going to bring back Barry's mom now, huh?? 😜)

Wally's argument with Barry at the lab just didn't ring true because he hasn't been around (or mentioned?) since the Season 5 premiere, and the relationship just isn't there for Wally to be so mad at him.

Can't wait for whatever nonsensical explanation for how Reverse Flash is possessing Wells #4687. And yeah, "I'm just gonna kill everybody" RF is not as interesting, and is a bit of a departure from his previous appearances.

Disappointed that Iris only had one scene. Although we saw more of the connection between Eva and Siri. It's looking more like Eva wants revenge against Carver. But she also tried to push away Wally, and was prompting Barry to accept the loss of his powers, so she must know that they are a threat to whatever her plans are.

It's really weird but intriguing how Siri is very much like Iris, but she got her own (Eva's) agenda. She says things that Iris might believably say, but not quite. However, I don't see how she can explain away Kamilla disappearing, especially with Cisco back in town.

Seeing a new version of Turtle with new powers was fine; but it wasn't as engaging as everything else going on.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Trini

[thuganomics85]

Cool seeing Wally again!  The show never really did him justice in the past, but I really loved his stint on Legends, and it was great seeing him here and Keiynan Lonsdale getting to interact with everyone in the cast again.

And, of course, Cisco is back too!  And thanks to that closing scene, maybe he'll actually stick around for a while.  One would hope he would notice that his girlfriend has suddenly disappeared.

So, the Speed Force is dead, huh?  At first, Barry thought it was because of the time he attacked it while infected by Bloodwork, but nope!  It was actually because of the time he used Spectre's powers in Crisis.  In other words, Barry and Oliver are both at fault!  These shows really are all about guilt-tripping the heroes.  Even though if Barry didn't do that, well, all the universes would have been wiped out of existence.  But I guess I am curious to see how they will go forward, with Barry having to ration out his speeding skills and trying to build their own Speed Force.

All of Nash's visions was leading to Eobard Thawne returning and taking over his body.  He did have a minor hick-up of not being able to use his powers in Nash's body, so he's now back in the Pipeline, but you just know it will only be a matter of time before he's let loose again!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: no one can sell a sappy pep-talk like Jesse L. Martin can!

Looks like some of Eva's actions can actually effect Siri in the real world?  Interesting.  At least Wally noticed something was off about her, and asked Joe to look into it.  But we've still got a good amount of episodes to go this season, so let us see how much they drag this out!

[UNOSEZ]

If I listened correctly... Wally wasn't just mad that Barry did something that had a negative impact on the speedforce... He was mad that even though he could see something was going on he said nothing.. And wally said he blew him off.. So I'm guessing even with his peace corps stuff he tries to reach out to Barry to see if anything weird was happening to him... Barry didn't respond.. He's mad Barry procrastinated cuz that put all the other speedsters at risk apparently... I hope wally returns... I know he was criminally underused, on both shows if I'm being honest but where his character is now would be a good place to have him return to the waverider... Especially with Ray leaving

[Velocity23]

I thought it was finally time that the Flash writers would stop shitting on Oliver, but i guess its in their blood. Also i wonder what crossover did they watch when they praising Barry as the hero.

When Barry has not shown to be a hero at all. I am tired honestly. 

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

And hey, at least Wally's twins exist in one timeline!

What?  What does this mean?  I missed it.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

I thought it was finally time that the Flash writers would stop shitting on Oliver, but i guess its in their blood. Also i wonder what crossover did they watch when they praising Barry as the hero.

When Barry has not shown to be a hero at all. I am tired honestly. 

But they didn't even mention Oliver - and they are clearly pinning this on Barry because he took the power into the speedforce.  He didn't know it was bad and clearly neither did Spectre/Oliver.  And I wouldn't even blame Oliver in this if I had to blame anyone.  I'd say SPECTRE and Barry were accountable for this, but not intentionally.

This whole thing with Barry creating his own speedforce is interesting though, because I thought that:

 

in the comics, Barry generates the speedforce himself?  Max Mercury said that the Speed Force is generated when Barry Allen runs. It's why he has a stronger connection to it than Wally and other speedsters?  He kinda IS the speedforce?

Edited March 11, 2020 by phoenics

[quarks]

11 minutes ago, phoenics said:

But they didn't even mention Oliver - and they are clearly pinning this on Barry because he took the power into the speedforce.  He didn't know it was bad and clearly neither did Spectre/Oliver.  And I wouldn't even blame Oliver in this if I had to blame anyone.  I'd say SPECTRE and Barry were accountable for this, but not intentionally.

This whole thing with Barry creating his own speedforce is interesting though, because I thought that:

  Reveal spoiler

in the comics, Barry generates the speedforce himself?  Max Mercury said that the Speed Force is generated when Barry Allen runs. It's why he has a stronger connection to it than Wally and other speedsters?  He kinda IS the speedforce?

(blinks)

They not only specifically mentioned Spectre but went out of their way to show a clip of Oliver Spectre from the crossover episode - something that they had to pay Stephen Amell at least a couple of thousand bucks for, during an episode that otherwise went well out of its way to stay on existing sets to save money. And that crossover episode made it absolutely clear that Spectre was/is Oliver Queen. So, yeah, they absolutely mentioned Oliver.

The Arrow series finale then confirmed that Spectre absolutely was/is Oliver Queen. 

All that said, attempting to blame Barry or Oliver for this is absolutely ludicrous.

[phoenics]

30 minutes ago, quarks said:

(blinks)

They not only specifically mentioned Spectre but went out of their way to show a clip of Oliver Spectre from the crossover episode - something that they had to pay Stephen Amell at least a couple of thousand bucks for, during an episode that otherwise went well out of its way to stay on existing sets to save money. And that crossover episode made it absolutely clear that Spectre was/is Oliver Queen. So, yeah, they absolutely mentioned Oliver.

The Arrow series finale then confirmed that Spectre absolutely was/is Oliver Queen. 

All that said, attempting to blame Barry or Oliver for this is absolutely ludicrous.

They showed Spectre and they never showed his face in the flashback that Barry had.  Oliver's face - Stephen Amell's face was never shown.  Just Spectre.  Who isn't really Oliver - but okay.  And definitely the show is blaming Barry pretty much alone.  No one on the show ever said, "why would would Spectre do that - he should have known!" or anything like that.  Instead, Barry took it as though he alone was at fault.

I just don't think the show blamed Oliver at all.  It mentioned Spectre - not Oliver - the two are not one and the same to me at all.  Yes there is some of Oliver there, but the part with the power to give is Spectre.  Not Oliver.  So even if the show was trying to blame Spectre (which it wasn't), Oliver didn't even factor into that.  Face shown or not - Spectre still has Oliver's face, so ... 

It just feels like a reach to say the show was blaming Oliver.

Edited March 11, 2020 by phoenics

[Auror]

If Spectre is a God why on earth could he have not anticipated this? I didn't even watch Arrow (I stopped after it was clear they were not following the GA Comic character very closely) but this oddly makes me irked with Spectre yet I shouldn't even really care. This is why Crossovers suck and are messy, too. 

[Featherhat]

37 minutes ago, phoenics said:

They showed Spectre and they never showed his face in the flashback that Barry had.  Oliver's face - Stephen Amell's face was never shown.  Just Spectre.  Who isn't really Oliver - but okay.  And definitely the show is blaming Barry pretty much alone.  No one on the show ever said, "why would would Spectre do that - he should have known!" or anything like that.  Instead, Barry took it as though he alone was at fault.

I just don't think the show blamed Oliver at all.  It mentioned Spectre - not Oliver - the two are not one and the same to me at all.  Yes there is some of Oliver there, but the part with the power to give is Spectre.  Not Oliver.  So even if the show was trying to blame Spectre (which it wasn't), Oliver didn't even factor into that.  Face shown or not - Spectre still has Oliver's face, so ... 

It just feels like a reach to say the show was blaming Oliver.

Arrow and MG made it clear Oliver= Spectre, that's how he was able to change things a d be alive and in a paradise dimension and also able to do guest appearances if/when the actors want to. 

I guess it wasnt egregious here but it's a sensitive spot because of the writers taking any opportunity to bash Oliver.

5 minutes ago, Auror said:

If Spectre is a God why on earth could he have not anticipated this? I didn't even watch Arrow (I stopped after it was clear they were not following the GA Comic character very closely) but this oddly makes me irked with Spectre yet I shouldn't even really care. This is why Crossovers suck and are messy, too. 

Because The Flash wasn't ending yet. The same reason why everything is great in Star City for 20 years but not Central City and that changes when they're trying to set a spin off. 

[phoenics]

Okay about Oliver/Spectre.

Can someone point me to where in the episode anything was said about Wally's twins?

[Auror]

5 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

 

Because The Flash wasn't ending yet. The same reason why everything is great in Star City for 20 years but not Central City and that changes when they're trying to set a spin off. 

Very true. 

[adora721]

18 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Okay about Oliver/Spectre.

Can someone point me to where in the episode anything was said about Wally's twins?

When Wally is angry with Barry about not telling him about the trouble with the speed force, Wally tells him that he's seen his own kids  (Wally's) and saw Nora using the speed force.  Here's the scene:

 

[Starry]

This episode made me wish we saw more of Barry and Wally having speedster team-ups and studying the Speed Force and its mysteries. Of course zen Wally learnt how to project his consciousness into the Speed Force. He had some pretty cool tricks up his sleeve. That helicopter saving was awesome and so was that cute lotus flower. Although it didn't sound right to me that Wally had tried to contact Barry but he kept blowing him off. It's not that I can't see Wally or Barry doing it but that conversation happened so suddenly in the middle of the episode and caught me by surprise. Has Wally been trying to communicate with Barry this entire time?

I was hoping Turtle 2.0 was connected to Black Hole. I guess not. She wasn't the greatest villain but at least she gave Joe more to do. Too bad Wally didn't have scenes with the real Iris ( poor girl missed out on Valentine's Day and her brother's welcome home party ) but I loved that Joe and Wally hug.

I gotta defend Barry here. He did notice that something was off with Iris almost immediately but was gaslit into believing that everything was his fault and she just had changed. They've been kept apart in the last few episodes but there's always a hint of sadness in his demeanour when he has scenes with her. It's like he walks on eggshells around her. That Joe and Cecile can't say something is wrong is more of a problem to me. Joe is completely clueless and Cecile's powers are rendered totally useless.

Now SirI told Barry something I can't see the real Iris saying. I don't know if Barry is going to obsess over it or just assume Iris has changed but he ended the episode deciding he was going to create his own version of the Speed Force. Considering that Iris had just told him they can now have a normal life and start a family he should talk to her about it.

When Thawne couldn't use his powers on Cisco I assumed it was because the Speed Force had died. I totally forgot he has access to the Negative Speed Force.

Wally only mentioned Nora when talking about Barry's descendants. This show better give me the twins!

IMO Kamilla got sent to the Mirrorverse. I hope there's more movement on that front.

[phoenics]

29 minutes ago, adora721 said:

When Wally is angry with Barry about not telling him about the trouble with the speed force, Wally tells him that he's seen his own kids  (Wally's) and saw Nora using the speed force.  Here's the scene:

 

Thank you - maybe Trina was thinking Wally has the Tornado Twins instead of Barry/Iris?  I don't believe that - I think Nora is just one future possibility for B/I... but the kids WW seemed to be talking about were just his kids... not necessarily the TTs.

 

[Rachel RSL]

Spoiler

I'm not an expert on the Flash-verse but I think Wally ends up having twins as well in the future.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Rachel RSL

[Starry]

28 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Thank you - maybe Trina was thinking Wally has the Tornado Twins instead of Barry/Iris?  I don't believe that - I think Nora is just one future possibility for B/I... but the kids WW seemed to be talking about were just his kids... not necessarily the TTs.

Wally wouldn't be talking about the Tornado Twins even if he mentioned seeing a timeline where he has twins.

Spoiler

In the comics both Barry and Wally have twins.

I think that's where the confusion comes from.

[phoenics]

5 minutes ago, Starry said:

This episode made me wish we saw more of Barry and Wally having speedster team-ups and studying the Speed Force and its mysteries. Of course zen Wally learnt how to project his consciousness into the Speed Force. He had some pretty cool tricks up his sleeve. That helicopter saving was awesome and so was that cute lotus flower. Although it didn't sound right to me that Wally had tried to contact Barry but he kept blowing him off. It's not that I can't see Wally or Barry doing it but that conversation happened so suddenly in the middle of the episode and caught me by surprise. Has Wally been trying to communicate with Barry this entire time?

 

I completely agree with this on so many levels!  I feel like that's part of what this show has been missing?  The Flash is a show so steeped in mythology - that's why I was so angry when Crisis was used for Oliver instead of finishing the arc that Crisis was literally how Barry Allen became the flash - that was his origin story and now that's all been thrown out.  But even beyond that, Wally doing all of that cool stuff and really communing with his powers to learn and understand them - I MISS that with Flash.

This show is SO dependent on keeping Star Labs folks occupied that it has dropped the ball on really exploring the mythology around the Speed Force - the way Wally experienced it.  Hell I'd watch a whole series on him learning all of this stuff.  They definitely need to bring Wally back for more of that.

And they need to start really delving into this lightning rod stuff with Iris - if they're so set on using SLs to validate everything then show there is that connection with Iris and Barry.  They had that spark thing in S1 and here they've just dropped that.  I feel like Barry should really feel like the soul of Iris is missing - that's why he doesn't feel connected to her properly.  But without them ever quantifying the "lightning rod" concept further or exploring that literal spark between them, Barry gets easily gaslighted.

I'm just worried about what Iris will think, feel and do when she gets out of the mirror.

 

13 minutes ago, Starry said:

Wally wouldn't be talking about the Tornado Twins even if he mentioned seeing a timeline where he has twins.

  Reveal spoiler

In the comics both Barry and Wally have twins.

I think that's where the confusion comes from.

Ohhhhhhhhh... no wonder I was confused.

[BeautifulFlower]

The reason the show portrayed it as Barry's fault is because he asked for the energy boost. Of course,  he didn't know what would happen, but he still is responsible.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

If I listened correctly... Wally wasn't just mad that Barry did something that had a negative impact on the speedforce... He was mad that even though he could see something was going on he said nothing.. And wally said he blew him off.. So I'm guessing even with his peace corps stuff he tries to reach out to Barry to see if anything weird was happening to him... Barry didn't respond.. He's mad Barry procrastinated cuz that put all the other speedsters at risk apparently.   ...

The problem is that they never showed or mentioned any of that until now. I can understand why they hadn't mentioned Wally supposedly being in contact before (producers weren't sure they Keiynan would be back), but that doesn't help the story that they're telling in this episode.

 

1 hour ago, Starry said:

... Although it didn't sound right to me that Wally had tried to contact Barry but he kept blowing him off. It's not that I can't see Wally or Barry doing it but that conversation happened so suddenly in the middle of the episode and caught me by surprise. Has Wally been trying to communicate with Barry this entire time?

 

Exactly. It just didn't follow what we as the audience have seen - or NOT seen, actually.

[UNOSEZ]

30 minutes ago, Trini said:

The problem is that they never showed or mentioned any of that until now. I can understand why they hadn't mentioned Wally supposedly being in contact before (producers weren't sure they Keiynan would be back), but that doesn't help the story that they're telling in this episode.

 

Exactly. It just didn't follow what we as the audience have seen - or NOT seen, actually.

True.. But if you look at how wally was treated when he was on the show.. Many times Barry treated him as an afterthought.. That he as the elder speedster knew better... Which was probably true.. But it constantly felt to  Wally that he was being benched in a way... So this outburst (with the added line that he tried and was blown off and barry's reaction in this very episode*)  shows  the culmination of wally's experience as the junior flash... Which is Barry doing something ( even for good and just reasons)  and then dealing with.. Or in this case not dealing with the repercussions on his own even though the repercussions affect more ppl than just him

[shantown]

So Caitlin is back and Killer Frost is gone, without so much as even a throwaway line explaining the switch. Okay, whatever. 

Then Reverse Flash is back for the 12th time and it's lost all impact because we just keep seeing him return. And now he doesn't even have a sort of symbiotic relationship with Barry, it's just "I'm gonna slit your throat" like the most basic B-movie villain. (Same with Barry crying, it loses the impact after the thousandth time, even if Grant is a good crier)

Thankfully Wally was back with some cool tricks and some great perceptions about Iris. Wish he could stick around longer, I miss Keiynan being on the show but was happy he came back for even one episode.

[MadyGirl1987]

I enjoyed this episode for the most part. My biggest complaint is nothing really happening on the Iris in the mirror subplot. It’s getting to the point where I just want them to do something with that plot and see some forward momentum with it. Hopefully Kamilla being attacked by imposter Iris and Wally telling Joe to keep an eye on her. I also think I saw something in Barry sensing something off when she was telling him it would be okay to not be the Flash and to stop being a hero, as that was a very un-Iris thing to say. I just hope there isn’t a whole lot of guilt/anger heaped at Barry that he didn’t catch on sooner since he DID sense something at first but was then convinced otherwise. Not his fault he was/ is being gaslighted.

[Auror]

I don’t understand how Cecile cannot sense something is wrong concerning Iris. It’s like the writers forgot she should easily sense something is very off/Iris is in danger. She might not be able to sense that it’s not really Iris. But based on what we have seen regarding her powers in the past… she should at least know something is extremely wrong every second she gets anywhere near Mirror Iris. 

[Starry]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

And they need to start really delving into this lightning rod stuff with Iris - if they're so set on using SLs to validate everything then show there is that connection with Iris and Barry.  They had that spark thing in S1 and here they've just dropped that.  I feel like Barry should really feel like the soul of Iris is missing - that's why he doesn't feel connected to her properly.  But without them ever quantifying the "lightning rod" concept further or exploring that literal spark between them, Barry gets easily gaslighted.

I think they've been leaving enough breadcrumbs for a lightning rod moment. In 6x12 it was like Barry could sense Iris on the other side of the mirror and in this episode Iris told Eva that Barry used to say that he could find her anywhere. It seems they are building up to something and I can only hope there's a pay-off this time ( still upset about the resolution to Blood Flash ).

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Strong episode having wally back was fun... That trick with the copter and with the flower were awesome 

When he was taking apart the helicopter, I hope he at least had a wrench on him.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, shantown said:

Then Reverse Flash is back for the 12th time and it's lost all impact because we just keep seeing him return. And now he doesn't even have a sort of symbiotic relationship with Barry, it's just "I'm gonna slit your throat" like the most basic B-movie villain. ...

I mean, I should be more excited about Thawne replacing Nash, but I'm over Cavanagh's gravelly Thawne voice, and he's not even being subtle or mysterious.
 

4 hours ago, Starry said:

I gotta defend Barry here. He did notice that something was off with Iris almost immediately but was gaslit into believing that everything was his fault and she just had changed. They've been kept apart in the last few episodes but there's always a hint of sadness in his demeanour when he has scenes with her. It's like he walks on eggshells around her. That Joe and Cecile can't say something is wrong is more of a problem to me. Joe is completely clueless and Cecile's powers are rendered totally useless.

Barry has been noticing things, and the show has been leaving breadcrumbs, but I feel this arc is taking too long. Barry getting his wife back should be his main story.

 

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IMO Kamilla got sent to the Mirrorverse. I hope there's more movement on that front.

1 hour ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I enjoyed this episode for the most part. My biggest complaint is nothing really happening on the Iris in the mirror subplot. It’s getting to the point where I just want them to do something with that plot and see some forward momentum with it. 

... And Iris getting out should be her story (since they want to stall CC Citizen and Black Hole). That has also been moving way too slow. At least one side of this Mirror arc needs to be going somewhere.

 

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

And they need to start really delving into this lightning rod stuff with Iris - if they're so set on using SLs to validate everything then show there is that connection with Iris and Barry.  They had that spark thing in S1 and here they've just dropped that.  I feel like Barry should really feel like the soul of Iris is missing - that's why he doesn't feel connected to her properly.  But without them ever quantifying the "lightning rod" concept further or exploring that literal spark between them, Barry gets easily gaslighted.

Can the Lightning Rod concept work if the Speed Force is dead? I feel like that's going to be the 'out' if they don't use it.

 

 

[crazymadness]

I think Wally's grammar made my ears bleed at one point.

Also, that was a lot of unearned anger for a zen guy.

Edited March 11, 2020 by crazymadness

[BeautifulFlower]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

 

 

 

... And Iris getting out should be her story (since they want to stall CC Citizen and Black Hole). That has also been moving way too slow. At least one side of this Mirror arc needs to be going somewhere.

 

 

 

 

Iris being in the mirror world IS apart of the Black Hole story. Siri is also doing stuff for Eva on the outside dealing with Black Hole. This episode is the only episode were stuff was stalled. It might move again next episode.

[Diapason Untuned]

On 3/10/2020 at 10:02 PM, quarks said:

 Ok, so now we have two shows claiming that multiverse doppledangers will get neurologicial issues and die, so, some consistency here. Care to explain things, Supergirl?

I think we can chalk up the doppleganger thing on Supergirl to aliens being exempt from the rule.

 

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Let me get this straight: Wally notices something is off with Siri. Cisco's girlfriend notices something is off with Siri even before the photo deletion issue. Siri then makes an incredibly un-Irislike speech to Barry that is a complete reversal of everything Iris has been saying for the last three or four years to Barry. And yet somehow, I'm expected to believe that Barry hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris? That Joe hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris?

Barry was the first person to notice something off with sirI. She just gaslit him into believing that nothing was wrong, and that she had just changed because of thinking he would die in Crisis.

In light of that, it isn't odd that he wouldn't feel anything too off about what she said this episode.

 

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That Cecile, whose powers specifically cover this, hasn't noticed anything wrong with Iris?

 This is an issue, but I suppose Mirror people are immune to empathy powers.

 

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Uh, Flash writers? Did you not watch the crossover episodes? Much though I personally like to blame Barry Allen for everything, those episodes were pretty clear - Crisis was not Barry's fault, and increasing Barry's power and sending him into the Speed Force was Spectre Oliver's fault, not Barry's fault.

Letting the Spectre into the Speed Force wasn't really Barry's fault (what choice did he have?), but ignoring the signs that something was wrong since then kind of is.

 

23 hours ago, Trini said:

The problem is that they never showed or mentioned any of that until now. I can understand why they hadn't mentioned Wally supposedly being in contact before (producers weren't sure they Keiynan would be back), but that doesn't help the story that they're telling in this episode.

I took it to mean Barry noticing something was wrong with the Speed Force, but not calling him to do something as simple as ask "Hey, have you had any trouble with your powers lately?"

Edited March 12, 2020 by Diapason Untuned

[dmeets]

Oh FFS... Thawne again? Eddie’s self sacrifice has got to officially be the most pointless death in television history 

[adora721]

Barry made a point to mention that the speed force is like gravity or light; it just doesn't die. And yet, it died. Then Thawne gaslights him into making his own speed force. I hope they bring Chester in to help since Chester created another force of nature - a black hole. If Chester isn't helping, then this is just a forced OTF thing. 

[shantown]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I hope they bring Chester in to help since Chester created another force of nature - a black hole. If Chester isn't helping, then this is just a forced OTF thing. 

Yeah, Killer Frost's skills are going to be generally unhelpful in this instance.

[adora721]

9 minutes ago, shantown said:

Yeah, Killer Frost's skills are going to be generally unhelpful in this instance.

I'm wondering if Cait will establish the biological aspect of Barry generating speed force energy when he runs. Hopefully, Barry will then enlist Siri to see if she's still his lightning rod. Iris told Barry about the literal spark between them when he was in a coma.  When there's no literal spark between him and Siri, perhaps then Barry will realize that Siri is a fraud.

Edited March 13, 2020 by adora721

[Trini]

Not a fan of the Speed Force dying just so Barry can make (???) his own - based off an idea of Thawne's. Because you just know even if he's successful, they'll turn it into something bad somehow later on. Best case scenario for me would be if he (and Wally) find a way to restore the Speed Force, sans Spectre infection.

(And now I realize there's been two deadly infection storylines this season!)

[Starry]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I'm wondering if Cait will establish the biological aspect of Barry generating speed force energy when he runs. Hopefully, Barry will then enlist Siri to see if she's still his lightning rod. Iris told Barry about the literal spark between them when he was in a coma.  When there's no literal spark between him and Siri, perhaps then Barry will realize that Siri is a fraud.

The problem with this theory is that I don't think Barry sees Iris as his lightning rod in the literal sense. The show has hinted at it but the characters themselves have never connected the dots or given the lightning rod moments much thought. 

[tennisgurl]

Wally is back! With a lot of beige shirts and a new zen attitude! I love Wally so I am happy to see him back, even if its just for this one episode, I will take what I can get! The main villain was pretty lame (even if I was excited to see Joe and Barry get to do their day jobs again!) but this was mostly an episode focused around character dynamics, especially with Wally, so I suppose I can let it slide. The villain of the week was so half assed, Cisco could hardly even be bothered to give her a name!

I know that Barry tends to make deeply questionable life choices and use his powers irresponsibly, especially in the first season or two, but I feel like Wally was way too hard on him about the speed force. He didnt even know for sure what happened, they just assumed it was the stuff with him being eaten with sludge blood in the Speed Force, they had no idea what really happened. As it turns out, what killed the Speed Force was using energy during Crisis, which I find quite justified, considering the fate of the entire multiverse was hanging in the balance, so Wally losing it on Barry seems even more disproportionate. Or was he mostly mad that he never told Wally that his powers were on the fritz? Apparently Wally tried to reach out to Barry, and Barry blew him off? For one, I cant really blame Barry for not calling Wally about his powers, he seemed to think that it was something in response to Crisis, and it wasnt really affecting him too much, so why bother. So was there a whole different show going on off-screen somewhere, because we never SAW Barry get messages from Wally, we never SAW Barry blow him off or why he did that, so it feels rather hallow as an audience member for Wally to be so much about something that we didnt even know was going on. Show dont tell! So if Barry and Wally were chatting this whole time, why did Wally never come by to check in when Nora died? When they all thought Barry was going to die? Did they not tell him that his niece came from the future, then got time disintegrated? That his brother in law is going to die? His sister was about to lose her husband, and he never swung by? I have no idea, because all of this happened off-screen apparently, so I dont know who I am supposed to be annoyed by!

Anyway, Wally got a dad speech from Joe, and he and Barry made up super quickly, so it worked out pretty easily. I love them exploring the speed force mythology more, its something that I always love doing stuff with, but I am sad that so much of it has happened off screen. I wanted to see Barry and Wally exploring the speed force together and seeing how it works and finding a connection with it and knowing more about how it works, not have it all happen off screen and then have the speed force die. Of course, I dont think its gone forever, but its definitely a change for now and one of the biggest plots for the speed force in awhile (even bigger than when Barry vibrated through it) and I wanted to see more of it. 

Thawne returns...again. And now, he is giving up on all of those nuances and complex evil plans, he just wants to kill everyone, because that is just SO much more interesting! I liked Thawne in the Nora arc, because there was a lot of different things going on and a lot of dynamics at play and he was being all manipulative and charming as well as evil, but him just coming back to cackle just seems dull, especially after him being destroyed and brought back again and again. 

Not much movement on the Iris/Siri front, except Wally, using his powers of zen, managed to figure out that something is off, even if he isnt sure what, and Kamilla gets shot into the mirror universe. Well that something at least! I think that one of the few times that Siri seemed to be noticeably non Iris was when she told Barry that maybe it was time to give up being The Flash, that seems like when she would normally give a "you can do it" speech instead. Of course, Barry was so despondent, and is still dealing with so many horrible traumas all happening one right after the other, what Siri is saying might sound quite appealing. As much as I want this plot to get moving, and for Barry to figure out what is going on, I do get why he hasn't put it all together yet. He caught on right away that something was up right away, and Siri gaslighted the crap out of him, played on his well known guilt complex, had excuses for every weird thing about her, and made it seem like he was the jerk for saying anything, so now if Siri does anything weird, he will probably just not bring it up, for fear of starting an argument, or put sit all on what Iris has been through, especially as his wife. Its frustrating, but I get it. I just really hope that Siri has been having a lot of headaches whenever Barry brings up having some...couple time, because otherwise...nope nope whole lotta nope. 

So Caitlin is back again! And so is Cisco! Yeah those powers are probably sounding good when your super villain evil mentor shows up looking fr some murder, huh Cisco? Still nice to have him back, even with some contrived arguing between him an Caitlin. Plus, Atlantis is here! I want an octopus playing the drums ASAP!

[rmontro]

On 3/11/2020 at 5:28 PM, Trini said:

I mean, I should be more excited about Thawne replacing Nash, but I'm over Cavanagh's gravelly Thawne voice, and he's not even being subtle or mysterious.

Thawne whispering all his lines has driven me crazy from the beginning.  I actually used to wonder if there was something wrong with Cavanagh that he delivered all his lines that way.

[Trini]

A couple more promo pics were released on twitter, and Keiynan posted some BTS pics:

 

 

[phoenics]

On 3/13/2020 at 3:55 PM, Starry said:

The problem with this theory is that I don't think Barry sees Iris as his lightning rod in the literal sense. The show has hinted at it but the characters themselves have never connected the dots or given the lightning rod moments much thought. 

That's exactly my issue - it's a shame the show dropped that spark thing with them in S1 - I really wish they'd bring that back.

I need my truly cosmically connected OTP back.

 

[Trini]

On 3/13/2020 at 4:44 PM, tennisgurl said:

I know that Barry tends to make deeply questionable life choices and use his powers irresponsibly, especially in the first season or two, but I feel like Wally was way too hard on him about the speed force. He didnt even know for sure what happened, they just assumed it was the stuff with him being eaten with sludge blood in the Speed Force, they had no idea what really happened. As it turns out, what killed the Speed Force was using energy during Crisis, which I find quite justified, considering the fate of the entire multiverse was hanging in the balance, so Wally losing it on Barry seems even more disproportionate. Or was he mostly mad that he never told Wally that his powers were on the fritz? Apparently Wally tried to reach out to Barry, and Barry blew him off? For one, I cant really blame Barry for not calling Wally about his powers, he seemed to think that it was something in response to Crisis, and it wasnt really affecting him too much, so why bother. So was there a whole different show going on off-screen somewhere, because we never SAW Barry get messages from Wally, we never SAW Barry blow him off or why he did that, so it feels rather hallow as an audience member for Wally to be so much about something that we didnt even know was going on. Show dont tell! So if Barry and Wally were chatting this whole time, why did Wally never come by to check in when Nora died? When they all thought Barry was going to die? Did they not tell him that his niece came from the future, then got time disintegrated? That his brother in law is going to die? His sister was about to lose her husband, and he never swung by? I have no idea, because all of this happened off-screen apparently, so I dont know who I am supposed to be annoyed by!

YES to all this; but the bolded parts are the main problems for me.

However, one Barry/Wally moment I did really like was the callback to Season 3 when Flash and Kid Flash raced but Wally hadn't learned to phase yet; now here they ran and phased together! I thought it was cute. Let's not wait another season and-a-half to get Wally back, OK, show?

 

On 3/13/2020 at 4:44 PM, tennisgurl said:

... I just really hope that Siri has been having a lot of headaches whenever Barry brings up having some...couple time, because otherwise...nope nope whole lotta nope.  ...

LOL! It's never going to come up either way; unfortunately. But after the Valentine's episode, they haven't shown them to be very intimate at all, as Siri is kind of cold towards Barry; so no sex between them is plausible albeit highly unrealistic.