Season 9 Discussion

[sheshark]

I did not I understand the initials in Kaci Lynn’s bedroom.  K B E - does anyone know what that means?

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, sheshark said:

I did not I understand the initials in Kaci Lynn’s bedroom.  K B E - does anyone know what that means?

It's a monogram.  Here's a some info from on monograms:

"For an individual, the first name initial is followed by the last and middle. The last name initial (center) is larger than those on the side." Southern Living

I have never understood why the last name goes in the middle. Also apparently it must be for Khloe. Kaci's middle name is Lynn and Khloe's middle name is Eileen. 

 

[Steff]

1 hour ago, sheshark said:

I did not I understand the initials in Kaci Lynn’s bedroom.  K B E - does anyone know what that means?

Southern monograms. 

[sheshark]

29 minutes ago, Steff said:

Southern monograms. 

Yes I know monograms, but she is K B L. Or is the Lyn short for Evelyn Or Ellyn?

[Sew Sumi]

The monogram was above the crib. I'm sure Kaci is in a toddler bed by now. The initials are those of the baby Khloe.

[sheshark]

Khloe’ Eileen!  Oh, thanks.  I didn’t notice the crib as I read my emails during the show.  In a monogram, your last name is in the middle, and usually in a larger font or type or embroidery.  I had a sweater like that years ago.

[iluvobx]

On 5/4/2020 at 1:26 PM, RebeccatheWriter said:

No, she said in the episode where they go to her old high school and tour her childhood home that her siblings (Kay, Kim, and Chip) went to live with him and she lived with their mother. Given the time period, a man getting custody is strange. I've always associated her lack of having her siblings around every day with some of her weird vibes about wanting to be besties with her older daughters. 

The exact quote from the episode (Season 5, Episode 8 - Sweet Home Spartanburg) was:

"I was in the third grade when my parents got divorced. I lived with my mother and my siblings lived with my father. So they moved to Tennessee. I stayed in South Carolina with my mom."

Thank you, I had it backwards.

[sATL]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:22 PM, SideofSlaw said:

Why 10 min of sticking a needle in a pretend arm? I had to fast forward. 

I thought Michealla was an EMT in her prior-single life. Don't EMT insert IVs? I know she is rusty on the procedure, but she seemed like it was her 1st time...

Given her love of children, nursing and taking care of others, I wonder has Michealla  thought or someone suggested,  she go into pediatric nursing. Or pediatric ICU . Or newborn pediatrics.

On 5/3/2020 at 10:58 PM, RebeccatheWriter said:

I know it always comes up that Kelly Jo's mother adopted Beth and Becca. However, one should realize that Kelly Jo's mother is not a follower of IBLP. She was a divorced woman who chose to adopt for her own reasons. Second, by IBLP's current thinking, she already had children and chose to adopt - something allowed and sanctioned by IBLP. I don't know Kelly Jo's family situation, but it is very nontraditional to say the least. Kelly Jo was raised by her mother when the rest of her siblings went with their father. Kelly Jo was married with babies of her own when her mother adopted. Kelly Jo seems very stilted and strange with her siblings on camera. They seem removed from each other and their mother too. 

For example, in the episode where Kelly Jo's mother gets married again. Kay, who lives close to their mother and helped take care of her at times per the storyline, arrives at lunch with some of the kids and Kelly Jo/Gil. She then admits she has never met the man (Tom) her mother is marrying. That whole exchange struck me as odd. 

Kelly Jo's sisters seem quite normal. I wonder what they really think about her and her beliefs, etc. 

I asked this question too - given the time period when all of this happened. Someone on the board suggested that maybe the older kids were biological only to the father. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by sATL

[RebeccatheWriter]

21 hours ago, sATL said:

I thought Michealla was an EMT in her prior-single life. Don't EMT insert IVs? I know she is rusty on the procedure, but she seemed like it was her 1st time...

 

I asked this question too - given the time period when all of this happened. Someone on the board suggested that maybe the older kids were biological only to the father. 

1. EMTs can be trained on IV access. She admitted she knew about it but was rusty on it. Remember that when she and Zach did their training, most of it was with the volunteer fire department in Anderson County. Not knocking them (some of my family does this), but I'm not sure how well they were trained. In the 19KAC episode showing Michaela and Zach on a call, he was working and she was back at the truck with the equipment and monitoring it. I know there was a lot of question at that point as to how much training and practice she had. Her previous education was in health sciences, but that doesn't really get into the practical side of patient care. 

I don't have the stomach to do healthcare so I don't know for sure. She seemed a little thrown about where she should put the tourniquet since it wasn't a real arm (or the size of one). That may have been part of her issue. My cousin is a former EMT turned nurse. She said her instructors expect her to know far more than she actually does. 

2. I have wondered that too, but the one sister - Kay - is very similar in looks to Betty (the mother) only a little rounder. Kelly Jo also said at one point that Betty was living with Kay or Kim. Granted not everything that comes out of her mouth is true. 

Didn't someone say that Kelly Jo's father was a minister or preacher? Since her siblings were all older, they might have chosen to live with him and Kelly Jo was too young for that decision. He apparently remarried rather soon after and had more children. Kelly Jo alternates between calling them her step siblings and her half siblings. 

[cereality]

So I guess Erin is "ok" with 4 kids in a 2 bedroom house because Gil let it be known that they had EIGHT kids in a 2 bedroom, 800 sqft house. I assume it was boys camping in the living room and girls in a bedroom; or a girls and boys bedroom with G&K sleeping in the living room making a new blessing.

I love that now the need from a new house stems not from -- we're packed like sardines -- but oh Carson is a BOY and you really don't want a BOY sharing a room with girls for so long so by the time he's 5 or so he needs his own room; he and his royal dick need their own rooms, the girls -- eh whatever, that's what servants quarters are for.

Chad said a few seasons ago he doesn't believe in taking a mortgage so he will buy a falling down house in cash and fix that up. Yet the falling down houses they showed, OMG they will actually fall over in a swift breeze. It's possible they are changing their minds on the no mortgage stance -- Erin because she is being lapped by her siblings -- and Chad because he may be losing his mind with 6 people in 2 rooms. Yet no way anyone is giving him a mortgage as a new business owner of a construction business that let's be real is not going to pull in any real jobs for months/if not years. With 14%+ unemployment, I'm pretty sure people are deciding their closed concept house with the unrenovated kitchen is just fine. And sorry Chad doing "German schmear" for your sister in law who likely is paying you squat because your wife volunteered you is not a job as far as a lender is concerned.

From the prior episode -- believe me I'm not fan of Lawson, but my goodness the rudeness of 11 year old Callie as she says with an attitude "he [Lawson] is 27 with no girlfriend, it's very odd." Guess G&K don't put the younger kids in their place? I'm sure she gets the attitude by seeing how Erin, Tori, Josie, and Carlin speak, but come on they are adults -- she's a child and freaking rude to speak like that about her 16+ yr older brother. Plus Callie there are a LOT of you -- you realize statistically it's possible some of you will be old maids; someone will end up divorced; someone will end up childless; someone may end up [gasp] gay.

And re G&K's visit with Alyssa and John when they were talking about her heart problem, I love that Gil's first reaction was -- those girls need a mother. Uh does she have any value to you but for the fact that she pushed out children??

As much as I think women are NOT put on this earth to have babies, man Brandon and Michaela would be great parents. It wouldn't even be about showing off a pregnancy or a cute baby, I think they'd be good with and interested in every stage -- including the annoying stages. I wish they'd adopt. Michela actually seems like she interacts with and is somewhat close with Kelly's adopted African American sisters; I could see her being totally ok with an African American baby. I imagine the reluctance is with Brandon -- given his fundie affiliation, probably has never been around anyone non white etc. But IDK his own brother married a woman who has kids so he has 2 steps kids that are probably kindergarten/first grade age. I realize that bro is probably not fundie, but maybe things like that make Brandon slowly see the light you CAN have happiness if you want kids, even if you're not able to make your own for some reason.

[65mickey]

The one thing that I do agree with Gil on is that Alyssa's girls do need a mother. Hopefully they are her priority now not trying for that son that some have urged her to do. Kelly said that Alyssa's heart problem may have been there since birth but it did not manifest itself until her third pregnancy. That is scary and I would take it as a sign that my body was saying no more pregnancies. it sounds likeher heart condition is nothing to play around with.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, 65mickey said:

The one thing that I do agree with Gil on is that Alyssa's girls do need a mother. Hopefully they are her priority now not trying for that son that some have urged her to do. Kelly said that Alyssa's heart problem may have been there since birth but it did not manifest itself until her third pregnancy. That is scary and I would take it as a sign that my body was saying no more pregnancies. it sounds likeher heart condition is nothing to play around with.

Yes, it does. I really hope she's not trying for a son to be there for her kids already here. They do need a mother. I do like Alyssa and John teaching their kids sign language that was cool.

Although he was very annoying at the tree job. Did he really ever actually work it himself or did he always have his sons cutting down the trees? I did wonder when they talked about how it was more fun then work if that's their problem when it comes to the Bates boys and work. Except for Zach do any of them actually have a job? Have to be at a place for thirty or forty hours every week? Have to be on time and work? Maybe Trace and he just keeps going from one brother's job sheriff to his brother-in-law's construction. Nathan's doing something with planes. I think teaching. The other boys are working at Chad's construction who knows what their licenses or training is. 

Erin and Chad only want a bigger house so Carson could have his own room? Really? That's the only reason? They don't want more space for them and the tons of kids still coming. I agree with @cereality I can't see them ever being able to afford any other place. Their money and getting a loan based on Chad's new company before all this hit was unlikely but now? But that's okay cause Erin's parents had eight kids in a smaller area. Really Erin? You never once got sick of that as a kid? Mostly due to your parents' lack of birth control and your dad refusing to work? Now living in small house with four kids and who knows how many pets because lack of birth control and not making smart decisions when it comes to jobs or money. And now the bad luck of who knows when he'll be seeing a paying job. 

So Gil came home at five every day and played with the kids while Kelly cooked? What? Gil worked? Where? What was this job? Was it the Nabisco company before he quit/laid off? Kelly cooked? Really? Are these really early memories before Michael was old enough to cook? Three? Four? Maybe if she's lucky six? 

[sATL]

I really like Alyssa.. She is living proof what moving away from family can do for a person.

The Sunday, after church, picnic - everyone looked looked great. Except for Kelli. She's in that same old tired , frumpy and probably hot given it is FL, jean skirt, and a blouse that looked like it had some "miles" on it.

I'm not buying she's not dressing better b/c she's no longer a size 2-6, like her daughters. Most women aren't - welcome to the club . I also not giving her a pass b/c she's a mother to young children, who may need to nurse (hence the button down) or she's rolling down in the floor with them. Jeb/Jud is what 7-8 now? I also not buying she "forgot" to pack an outfit ; one arm Gill can pull out a suit & tie... What happened to all of the mother of the brides dresses? If they are long, shorten them.

The dresses Alyssa and the girls had on were beautiful -so spring like and feminine. If Alyssa/Michella made them, or ordered them from the Sisters&Company ( I forgot the same of the drop-ship store Erin/Whitney/Carlin run) , surely they could have ordered extra fabric for their mother. Can Kelli sew? who taught Michella ?

And Kelli - NO. Trace/Jackson and any other Bates son does not need to apprentice under John. The HVAC business is for the Websters. Stop trying to pimp out your sons. If any Bates man-child wants to learn/know/work,  then let man up and ask Webster Sr (John's dad) themselves. Or wait for a Wester to state they are looking for newbies, because their business is growing.

Edited May 10, 2020 by sATL

[sATL]

I watched the episode from DVR, set to tape on Thursday.  There were 2 info-commercials where Kelli is stating about how these are trying times and that they enjoy bringing the show to us viewers.

Little curious how a family of 30+ are "sheltering in place" during all of this time, who seem always be with each other for the smallest daily life events. Wished she would have dropped a comment , showed a scene, etc on that point, like other tv personalities have.

Then she says there is a website uptv.com/feedback to leave comments about the show.

Is the show in trouble? Contract renewal time? Testing the waters for a spinoff  idea? I can't see the Bates making major changes based upon what we do/don't want to see. But like the Duggars,for a different reason, they might need to consider to spin-off to focus on the kid-adults, as there will be a while before another Bates daughter wedding. We will have to see if Lawson's wedding has as much draw/interest/ratings boost , as John David's wedding did.

RE: the tree job - If those men showed up in my yard arguing who is going to do what, I would have asked them to leave. Not a good professional look. And when the trunk/base of the tree , dropped, Gil was standing too close to it. He was off to the side  , but didn't need to be that close.

Edited May 10, 2020 by sATL

[65mickey]

4 hours ago, sATL said:

I really like Alyssa.. She is living proof what moving away from family can do for a person.

The Sunday, after church, picnic - everyone looked looked great. Except for Kelli. She's in that same old tired , frumpy and probably hot given it is FL, jean skirt, and a blouse that looked like it had some "miles" on it.

I'm not buying she's not dressing better b/c she's no longer a size 2-6, like her daughters. Most women aren't - welcome to the club . I also not giving her a pass b/c she's a mother to young children, who may need to nurse (hence the button down) or she's rolling down in the floor with them. Jeb/Jud is what 7-8 now? I also not buying she "forgot" to pack an outfit ; one arm Gill can pull out a suit & tie... What happened to all of the mother of the brides dresses? If they are long, shorten them.

The dresses Alyssa and the girls had on were beautiful -so spring like and feminine. If Alyssa/Michella made them, or ordered them from the Sisters&Company ( I forgot the same of the drop-ship store Erin/Whitney/Carlin run) , surely they could have ordered extra fabric for their mother. Can Kelli sew? who taught Michella ?

And Kelli - NO. Trace/Jackson and any other Bates son does not need to apprentice under John. The HVAC business is for the Websters. Stop trying to pimp out your sons. If any Bates man-child wants to learn/know/work,  then let man up and ask Webster Sr (John's dad) themselves. Or wait for a Wester to state they are looking for newbies, because their business is growing.

Kelli has modeled a few + size dresses for the Sister's Boutique on their website. For the most part they are flattering on her and they look more stylish than the long denim skirts and vests. I don't know why she doesn't wear these especially in Florida when they would be so much cooler and more comfortable. Not sure about the quality of these clothes maybe they don't hold up to multiple washings. 

[RebeccatheWriter]

9 hours ago, sATL said:

Can Kelli sew? who taught Michella ?

And Kelli - NO. Trace/Jackson and any other Bates son does not need to apprentice under John. The HVAC business is for the Websters. Stop trying to pimp out your sons. If any Bates man-child wants to learn/know/work,  then let man up and ask Webster Sr (John's dad) themselves. Or wait for a Wester to state they are looking for newbies, because their business is growing.

Skills

Kelly Jo apparently cannot sew. The evidence is when Michaela arrives and she begs her to mend something, fix something, sew something. Michaela apparently picked up some of her skills with sewing and even cooking from Gil's mother. Kelly Jo has said she grew up with tv dinners and the such. 

People who I know who used to go to church with the Bates before Gil started his own say that Michaela was always the one of the family to bring dishes to the pot lucks and such. Some of the women in the church helped her to learn different skills, as according to two of the people I know with connections to them, "Kelly Jo never really did anything. She just stood around and talked about how much she head done while some of her daughters did all the heavy lifting."

That must have been an early memory for Michaela to have mentioned about Gil playing with them after 5 p.m. since Kelly Jo was cooking and not her. I assume that would be around the Nabisco time. Granted some of the early interviews talked about Gil's tree business and coming home to play with the kids.  

Education

The apprentice thing is the Gothard IBLP talk rearing its head. Their beloved Crown College has its own HVAC program for students. It's better than nothing. It would be one thing if Jackson, Warden, and Isiah were vocal about wanting to pursue a career in the trades but unsure which one. Shadowing Chad, John, Kelton, and Evan might be helpful in that regard. They could observe what goes on and how things work. But no they don't need to apprentice, work, and get paid. They need to explore career options and learn before making a decision. 

Case in point, I have a cousin who said she wants to be a nurse. She has said this since she was 4. It was assumed that is what she would do. In high school she barely passed biology or chemistry and I internally questioned her resolve. Before enrolling in the healthcare program she had to sit through an orientation and be advised. Her car broke down so I drove her. The advisor looked at her transcript and package and I could see he had doubts. I expected him to just say no and send her away. He didn't. He sat there and asked if she liked needles. Did she like blood or freak out at the sight of it? What was her own health experience with nurses? My cousin admitted she hated all of that and that she wasn't sure why she wanted to be a nurse. He pointed her in the direction of some other programs and encouraged her to interview people in those professions and watch what they did. It helped her pick her career and educational path without telling her she couldn't or shouldn't do something. 

Let these boys (and preferably the girls too) take a career assessment to see where their interests and abilities are right now. 

Alyssa's Health

I've had the same procedure as Alyssa had. It is scary, but so much easier and better than many of the alternatives out there. While such things can appear later in life or during pregnancy, I have to question the kids healthcare growing up. Gil talked about using the ER for everything in some early interviews. Did they ever have any preventative care or testing as children? Were they only taken when something was clearly wrong?

Although I agree that Alyssa and John's daughters are better off with two healthy parents, I did side eye the television with Gil's statement. On Callie's birthday he made the comment that wished her a happy birthday and said she was sure to be a wonderful mother someday. The family does have some skewed views on the roles of men and women, as well as love, marriage, and relationships overall. I just shook my head the other week when Callie stated Lawson being single at his age was "odd." Given her age, odd was probably not her own word. She was parroting or mimicking something someone else has said. Not that I like Lawson, but his single status in a family that puts such pressure on instant love and marriage is quite refreshing. His lack of a girlfriend or wife means one less woman is bound into the submission that is the Bates family. 

[crazy8s]

per the Bates' endless commercials on UP network with home schooling tips

the boys don't like to read and you must give them something to read that interests them.

Jackson, i think. is shown, will only read if it is about airplanes.

watch soon for Jackson to get a pilot's license.

[Me from ME]

Am I remembering correctly that the boys have to turn over their paychecks to Gil since he provides their room and board? (I know that in the beginning Lawson gave the family money from the lawn care service when the family needed to buy food. I thought I heard Gil mention the financial arrangement with the other sons fairly recently.

If true, I can see why they're in no hurry to get a 9-5 job outside the home to just turn it over to their Dad.

[65mickey]

20 minutes ago, Me from ME said:

Am I remembering correctly that the boys have to turn over their paychecks to Gil since he provides their room and board? (I know that in the beginning Lawson gave the family money from the lawn care service when the family needed to buy food. I thought I heard Gil mention the financial arrangement with the other sons fairly recently.

If true, I can see why they're in no hurry to get a 9-5 job outside the home to just turn it over to their Dad.

I've never heard them say they have to turn over their paychecks to Gil.  I can't imagine Gil saying this on the TV show. That wouldn't look too good. Who knows how the money from UP is distributed though.  What I remember Lawson saying about buying the food was that he was responsible for grocery shopping. I don't think he ever said that he used his own money for the food budget. He did say that he loaned money to Erin when she needed money to pay her tuition. I remember Kelli saying that Josie was working extra hours at the hair salon to earn as much as she could for her wedding. So oviously she was turning over her pay check to Gil. 

[LynneH]

I don't have a problem with apprenticeship programs or even the teenagers following around Chad, Zach, Gil or whomever.  In my opinion, It's a great opportunity to decide if they like and have the constitution for that particular career plan.  If they do, great, go to college and get your license/degree; if you don't then move on to something else.

[Me from ME]

What I recall was him saying something to one of the boys. I would never expect the girls to have to chip in because - well, different rules for different genders.

Reference from August 2011:

Quote

Lawson looked so uncomfortable even being asked about it. I doubt he ever asks Gil for a return on that money. It seemed like he felt obligated to do it.

Also, what I think is more disconcerting in all of this. In the Nightline piece, when Lawson pays for the family groceries, they say it's because Gil hasn't gotten paid yet.

It also mentions that he lends money to his brothers and sisters and they repay him.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Me from ME
Added reference

[BitterApple]

I can't say for certain with regards to the boys' outside jobs, but Gil did explicitly say he didn't pay them for tree work. He stated room and board was fair trade.

[Sew Sumi]

5 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I can't say for certain with regards to the boys' outside jobs, but Gil did explicitly say he didn't pay them for tree work. He stated room and board was fair trade.

I also remember this. My first thought was "What a fucking cheapskate." 

[Me from ME]

Quote

He stated room and board was fair trade.

That's it. Thanks for clarifying it for me.

[Sew Sumi]

How can it be fair trade when they aren't allowed to live outside the home until they're married? That doesn't seem fair.

[cereality]

It'd be nice if Gil meant it as -- "these girls need a mother -- i.e. please don't take the risk of more babies." But even if he DID mean it that way, I can see Kelly in Alyssa's ear talking about how much they need to try for John Elliott Jr. Especially since Alyssa has now said that the earlier, more "difficult" cardiac problem that she had has been solved thru the 2 surgical procedures and the current problem is more like AFib which is typically handled by meds. Unless those are the types of meds where you can't get pregnant (I have no idea), I can see Kelly saying at some point esp as more time goes by -- see you were healed by God so you owe it to God and John to do what you were put on this earth to do.

While I'm not a fan of Gil, I do think he is a bit more human with his daughters and cares for them (sons OTOH he wants off his payroll ASAP). He and Alyssa are close and I can see him thinking he doesn't want her taking a risk. A few seasons ago he took Addie/Ellie/Callie out to lunch and either Addie or Ellie said something like they don't want to grow up because they you can't play, you "have to" go to college, and then you have to get married and leave home. Gil instinctively in that dad way says -- you never have to leave home, you can stay with dad forever if you want to. Kelly OTOH would have started lecturing a 10 year old girl about how her Godly purpose is to be a wife and mother and of course she wants that and if she feels she doesn't want that at the ripe old age of 10, there's something wrong with her and she had better start praying for guidance.

And I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with the sons seeking out apprenticeshps in the trades, but I think it should be the SONS seeking it out. OTOH the parents -- esp Kelly -- have decided that after leaving Zach, Nathan, and Law out there on their own to figure out a living, they now have enough "options" in the family to force each of the sons in law to provide jobs to the remaining sons -- Trace/Jackson/Warden/Isiah and eventually Jeb and Jud. Whether sons want it or not be damned. And no -- no one is allowed to do this the RIGHT way, with an actual trade school and license. So they will half ass it and become a contractor, electrician or plumber by working for one of their brothers in law. Honestly I think they'll all end up with Chad and maybe Evan if he ever opens his own shop  -- if Chad can ever turn a profit after this recession; they're local + Chad has no backbone. John is in Fla. with a real business with his brothers, so I don't see that company hiring John's brother in law just bc John asks unless the BIL LEGIT has a license, as John's business does real HVAC work for car dealerships, restaurants etc. -- accounts they can't afford to lose. And Kelton while local just doesn't play ball with the Bates. Plus he has 2 (I believe) brothers of his own who are high school/young college age who've gotten their plumbing licenses while in HS; you know when Kelton's business grows and he's in a position to hire, he's hiring his brothers not Warden just bc Kelly says so.

[RebeccatheWriter]

19 hours ago, LynneH said:

I don't have a problem with apprenticeship programs or even the teenagers following around Chad, Zach, Gil or whomever.  In my opinion, It's a great opportunity to decide if they like and have the constitution for that particular career plan.  If they do, great, go to college and get your license/degree; if you don't then move on to something else.

True apprenticeship programs are great. I take exception to Kelly Jo's interpretation that her sons wander around, perform tasks they aren't ready to do, and then get paid for it. Many companies aren't equipped for real apprenticeships, which require a mixture of classroom education and hands on experience. State licensed positions (varies by location), require both to be legally able to work in electricity, plumbing, etc. It is a disservice to true apprenticeships to pretend that what the Bates do is anywhere close to that. 

That said, these boys (and girls) need to be allowed to explore the careers they have an interest in without pressure from Kelly Jo and Gil. If she wants to coordinate it, then put it in as part of her homeschool curriculum. At around 14/15, the kids could choose 2-3 careers they had an interest in and find someone in those careers to interview about the job. He or she could write up their findings and even follow someone around for a day or two. At 16ish they could expand that to include learning how to become licensed and exploring educational opportunities for those they were interested in. Basically, it should progress and be based on their interests and initiative. 

Kelly Jo doesn't need to ask John or any of the other sons-in-law. It comes off as if she is trying to pawn off her sons on Alyssa to care for so she doesn't have to do it while they follow John around in Florida. 

[LongDenimFrumper]

When Erin and Chad were discussing a new home, I like how Erin mentions she wants a "small home" because it's so easy to organize. Uh uh. I also think it's cute that she says they only need one more bedroom. Who are you kidding Erin? You are planning on pushing out at least 15 or more children, you need a massive compound to accommodate the brood you're planning. I don't know why these people beat around the bush so much. Just be real. You need a good sized home for your large/growing family. Chad is going to have to bite the bullet soon and get a mortgage. (Somehow, some way.) It has got to be killing Erin to see some of her siblings own a decent sized home before her. As their family grows...I wonder if they are starting to question whether any of this is smart? Or do they truly believe God will provide for their mega family? I know I would be freaking out if I had 4 kids packed into one tiny bedroom! 

Edited May 12, 2020 by LongDenimFrumper

[RebeccatheWriter]

1 hour ago, LongDenimFrumper said:

When Erin and Chad were discussing a new home, I like how Erin mentions she wants a "small home" because it's so easy to organize. Uh uh. I also think it's cute that she says they only need one more bedroom. Who are you kidding Erin? You are planning on pushing out at least 15 or more children, you need a massive compound to accommodate the brood you're planning. I don't know why these people beat around the bush so much. Just be real. You need a good sized home for your large/growing family. Chad is going to have to bite the bullet soon and get a mortgage. (Somehow, some way.) It has got to be killing Erin to see some of her siblings own a decent sized home before her. As their family grows...I wonder if they are starting to question whether any of this is smart? Or do they truly believe God will provide for their mega family? I know I would be freaking out if I had 4 kids packed into one tiny bedroom! 

Just some conjecture and some assumptions on my part, but I think Erin has a very different perspective on growing up than her siblings of a similar age do. While Michaela and Alyssa were required (volunteered) to cook meals for the family as a whole from an early age and the boys were required to be a part of the tree business and find their own careers to make money, she was more sheltered by her parents. They sort of picked her out as the "talented" one to make music. She was allowed to spend more time practicing than doing some of the chores her siblings were doing. 

From the early magazine shows and 19KAC appearances, we saw Michaela doing laundry and cooking with a baby on her hip or at her side (Callie, Addee, or Ellie). Alyssa was cooking and usually caring for the needs of the middle boys and Josie/Katie in those days. Tori and Carlin claimed they didn't want to learn to cook (Tori more vocally), but Kelly Jo insisted for the cameras at least. Erin was not required to do those things. They actually joked about her lack of ability with cooking. 

In the 19KAC episodes where the Duggars come to visit, they show Gil and Kelly assigning chores. Erin's name was always distinctly absent from that, as her chore was apparently giving piano lessons to her siblings. I'm not saying that isn't work. But it is very different than cleaning the bathrooms, cleaning bedrooms and changing sheets, or fixing meals for 40-plus people when the Duggars showed up. 

Where there is a little evidence that Zach, Michaela, and Alyssa have a little more care in the way they operate - Zach and Michaela seem more practical and Alyssa is more in tune with wanting nicer things and giving her daughters things she probably didn't have growing up - Erin seems intent on repeating her parents' lifestyle. So - again just assuming - she looks at things as it worked for me growing up so it should be fine. I haven't really seen any of that motivation with her to rise above and have a more comfortable or better life than she had growing up. 

[cereality]

Agreed @RebeccatheWriter. Zach and Alyssa especially seem to want a better and nicer life that what they grew up in. Makes sense because they didn't grow up on the compound that today's kids/teens are living in; they mostly grew up in a 2 bedroom, 800 sqft home with 8 kids + 2 adults.

I think Zach also decided his parents are full of $hit when he was the good son who did everything that was asked, prayed, etc. and his courtship still didn't work out. I think that's when he realized his parents don't know it all and there is a whole world out there that is still Godly (esp in eastern rural Tenn) but still lives, has nice things etc. So I think the nice house with a "limited" # of kids -- like 4 or 6 or whatever -- was a priority for him. And while Alyssa has that tiny little rental home, she is apparently fastidious about her house to the point where when they visit, Gil and Kelly actually monitor their other kids to make sure they don't destroy anything bc Alyssa will be pissed.

Michael IDK about. I think she does truly believe in the fundie life 100%. I think she would be happy to sacrifice her life to have 12 kids even in a 2 bedroom home; IDK if the nicer things matter to her as much as the traditional views in which she was raised. Alas life didn't work out that way (though maybe she also now questions in her heart of hearts her parents' obsession that if you're Godly life will be exactly how you want), so I think now she'd just be happy with 1 or 2 kids which necessarily gives them a nicer life since they won't have to worry about providing for 15 kids.

And then Carlin and Josie got caught up in the insta influencer world -- and Tori is their hanger oner (maybe IDK much about her)  -- so that's when they discovered the nice houses, better clothes etc. since they need to photograph their lives well.

Honestly I think the only ones ok with their parents lives would be Erin, Trace, Warden/Jax/Isiah because life was pretty easy for them -- didn't do much, didn't have much responsibility, in Erin's case it's the man's problem to figure out how to make $$$ and provide housing for 14 kids, and in the boys' cases they'd have a woman and daughters doing all the cooking/cleaning etc. so it'd be just like living with mom and dad except they'd go to their manual labor jobs. Law and Nathan may fall in there as well though for them I think they want their own jobs and lives that aren't tree work, but if a woman wanted to settle down with them, I see them having no problem settling into the fundie life; I don't see their aversion to fundie and tree work as exceeding their love for being pilots/being on the road etc; it's just something to do for now bc it gets them off the compound since they have no responsibilities to their own wives/kids etc.

[RebeccatheWriter]

14 hours ago, cereality said:

Michael IDK about. I think she does truly believe in the fundie life 100%. I think she would be happy to sacrifice her life to have 12 kids even in a 2 bedroom home; IDK if the nicer things matter to her as much as the traditional views in which she was raised. Alas life didn't work out that way (though maybe she also now questions in her heart of hearts her parents' obsession that if you're Godly life will be exactly how you want), so I think now she'd just be happy with 1 or 2 kids which necessarily gives them a nicer life since they won't have to worry about providing for 15 kids.

I think Michael's mindset is different than say Zach and Alyssa. Michael is total fundy and if she could would already have five kids at this point. She is nostalgic about her growing up years probably because her role as caregiver was something important to her and is now pretty minimal even when she babysits. She isn't materialistic, but her husband seems to prefer some of the nicer things he received as a result of working with IBLP and may even use those as a way to keep her happy-ish. He was the one most against the rental they looked at last season (the one Carlin and Evan ended up getting). He felt it was too small. So while I think Alyssa and Zach are determined to live differently than their parents in terms of possessions, Michael seems to want something different in terms of lifestyle in some ways. 

Like Alyssa, she seems to crave order and discipline. Where Kelly Jo and Gil come off as much more in the mode of God will provide, Michael and Alyssa are planners and doers. Alyssa has said she doesn't really like all the noise of all her siblings at the same time. She was clearly stressed at Ali's first birthday with her siblings eating what she was going to serve later and ignoring her directions. I would have thrown a fit. Meanwhile we never saw Gil or Kelly Jo step in and do more than mild chastising as the children and even young adults continued to eat the strawberries, etc. 

You can see a bit of Michael's personality come out when she was planning her wedding. She was not as easily swayed by Kelly Jo's desires as some of her siblings (Tori) have been. I remember actually being impressed looking back on it with how she let Kelly Jo and Erin run off at the mouth about what church, what style dress, etc., but she then chose what she wanted on many of the items - some exceptions - and picked her battles. Yes, she deferred to Brandon at times, but she didn't cower to what Kelly Jo wanted every single time. She showed some of that same resolve when Carlin visited their first apartment with Kelly Jo and Josie. She did not take every piece of advice about decorating it, nor did she when Erin came to visit when they moved in the house. 

Michael doesn't come off exasperated like Alyssa or as removed from the chaos as Zach. I think - and this is just my interpretation - she may think that she could probably do a better job than Kelly Jo at being a mother to a large crowd. She is certainly stricter with her younger siblings than her parents are at this point. To me that seems a call out like Alyssa's comments of the house always being loud or Josie's comments about it always being dirty. 

Josie, Tori, and Carlin are in a different category than the oldest three girls. They were actually taken care of by Michaela and Alyssa (and whatever it was that Erin did). Yes, they got the roles of caregivers when those three were gone, but it doesn't appear to be the same level. We never saw them having to cook huge meals (more like heat and serve) and all three claim they never learned to cook. They helped with school stuff, but they also had a bit more freedom with going to Crown (later Liberty for Carlin). They are still insulated and isolated from other people to model their own life and behavior after, but there was some outside the family influence. 

Josie seems to want to live more like Alyssa and/or friends she made through cosmetology. She's not anti-religion by any means. She did say that she felt cosmetology was a good way for her to extend her mission work. But she seems to want that order and lifestyle of someone who doesn't have 500 kids and can have something breakable on a shelf without worry. 

Tori is Kelly Jo part two. 

Carlin hasn't changed at all. She still seeks that camera and has an image to project. I wonder about how she will be once the show is over someday. In the words of a friend of mine, "she might have to consider therapy just so she can continue talking about herself and pay someone to listen."

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, RebeccatheWriter said:

I think Michael's mindset is different than say Zach and Alyssa. Michael is total fundy and if she could would already have five kids at this point. She is nostalgic about her growing up years probably because her role as caregiver was something important to her and is now pretty minimal even when she babysits. She isn't materialistic, but her husband seems to prefer some of the nicer things he received as a result of working with IBLP and may even use those as a way to keep her happy-ish. He was the one most against the rental they looked at last season (the one Carlin and Evan ended up getting). He felt it was too small. So while I think Alyssa and Zach are determined to live differently than their parents in terms of possessions, Michael seems to want something different in terms of lifestyle in some ways. 

Like Alyssa, she seems to crave order and discipline. Where Kelly Jo and Gil come off as much more in the mode of God will provide, Michael and Alyssa are planners and doers. Alyssa has said she doesn't really like all the noise of all her siblings at the same time. She was clearly stressed at Ali's first birthday with her siblings eating what she was going to serve later and ignoring her directions. I would have thrown a fit. Meanwhile we never saw Gil or Kelly Jo step in and do more than mild chastising as the children and even young adults continued to eat the strawberries, etc. 

Michael doesn't come off exasperated like Alyssa or as removed from the chaos as Zach. I think - and this is just my interpretation - she may think that she could probably do a better job than Kelly Jo at being a mother to a large crowd. She is certainly stricter with her younger siblings than her parents are at this point. To me that seems a call out like Alyssa's comments of the house always being loud or Josie's comments about it always being dirty. 

Zach, Michael and Alyssa all seem to be in the category where they had to do the actual work when it came to the family. Although Michael's the only one who came out of the three still fundy. Partly because her personality of liking to help and take care of people and partly she still seems to think her mother is a great person and her best friend. She doesn't notice her mother basically used to her to raise her kids.

Zach seems to see his father at least for who he really is. A slacker who never works and doesn't do much of anything. He was probably tired of the grifting and being poor. And not because of circumstances but because his father refused to work. But then when he got completely screwed over by his parents with the courtship he realized his parents were full of crap. He seems to be really the only one who realizes he got screwed over by his parents the rest still haven't. He ended up choosing who he wanted to court and marry and wouldn't budge even with Kelly trying to find someone else. He went out and got a real job. He seems really willing to work hard in a job and in the house he and Whitney bought and fixed up. What that means if he remains fundie I don't know but he won't be a Gil and Kelly fundy. He seems to be the only one who questions them. 

Alyssa too seems to realize which seems to be one of the reasons she likes living so far away from her parents. She gets to do more that she wants focusing on clothes, hair, nice things and quiet. She managed to keep her entire family from coming down when Allie was born and does get annoyed when they do visit because their obnoxious and will trash her place. When Kelly tried to pressure her to move back to Tennessee it didn't work. We see how her siblings and parents treat things at home or when they visit Gil's parents. Her parents laughed at how destructive their kids are at their grandparents. After seeing that its easy to see why Alyssa and Michael come off so strict when their siblings visits. If they don't then they'll destroy their stuff. It doesn't mean anything to them and their parents' don't care. They really have no choice. In Michael's case even though she comes off strict but she comes off more like a mom to her siblings. 

Quote

Carlin hasn't changed at all. She still seeks that camera and has an image to project. I wonder about how she will be once the show is over someday. In the words of a friend of mine, "she might have to consider therapy just so she can continue talking about herself and pay someone to listen."

She really has a need to for attention all the time. As its been pointed out Carlin's always the first to hug people, to congratulate, and stuff. She needs attention on her. Maybe because she never got much growing up which is possible she was number nine and doesn't get the attention that Erin gets. Carlin certainly wants it and seems to model her behavior after Erin and Kelly. She had to have the biggest wedding party, she had to have the biggest dress,  somehow managed to get the big venue and got the dancing. Which made Erin jealous. Carlin's still competing for attention and following what she thinks will get it. Putting herself on camera all the time. The attention she gets from fans she probably needs but also craves. 

[cereality]

Michael and Alyssa (and Zach) are likely doers because they had no choice. Gil and Kelly can sit there with the whole -- oh God will provide for our dinner table -- but Michael and Alyssa were the ones who actually had to DO IT and get dinner on the table. They probably learned by age 10 if not earlier that if you don't start chopping vegetables or prepping the meat by 4 pm, you won't be able to get dinner on the table for 20 people by 5:30 pm and that's when mama and daddy start to get cranky when dinner isn't on the table yet. I mean by the time Alyssa was 10 (and Michael was 15), I'm sure they were 100% responsible for meals -- they had 14 freaking children. They were putting dinner on the table for 16 ppl as pre teens. They are used to working HARD.

It's interesting you mention Michael's wedding, I had totally forgotten. You're right she wasn't a total pushover. I wonder if some of that comes from her fundie beliefs too. You are under mom and dad's control until you become a WIFE and that's what makes you a WOMAN under your husband's control; so the wedding is for you and your husband -- and like most husbands Brandon deferred to Michael on it and thus she was like -- nope this is how WE want it, even if mom and Erin think otherwise. I don't recall much of it, but I do remember her being insistent on one particular church and worrying whether that church was available on that date; Erin tried to convince her other churches were fine and she was like nope -- it's THIS church. I also remember being surprised that she served real food. I know the Bates weddings aren't as pathetic as the Duggars, but they've gotten bigger lately with the social media savvy daughters. The older kids did punch and cake receptions (as did Tori bc she didn't give a $hit and clarified she'd do whatever Kelly wanted that was quick bc she just wanted to hit the motel bed w Bobby), as I expect they wanted all of the limited $$ to go into the wedding grandeur (ahem Erin) and that's what their parents had always seen and recommended. Michael OTOH worked out an agreement with the family she nannied for which owns a restaurant in town to provide chicken and sides for dinner. And then later when Erin and Carlin tried to redecorate her Chicago apt -- Kelly was the one appeasing her saying "it's just furniture, if you don't like it, they'll move it back" and Brandon when he came home was quick to say "well do YOU like it" -- as opposed to your sisters? I think she takes the fundie WIFE, this is MY marriage and MY home thing seriously.

I think you're right -- Alyssa (and Josie) think they can keep a better home than Kelly (they do); Michael thinks she can be a better mom and just run a better/more disciplined household (unfortunately she hasn't had a chance but just seeing her with her siblings, cooking, sewing -- yeah she does the fundie wife things MUCH better); and Zach thinks he can work harder and provide better than Gil (he does).

Alyssa has a lot of Mama Jane in her. Mama Jane doesn't even hide her annoyance when all 18 grandkids descend and act like animals and start to destroy her house. I mean even the older ones do it and G&K just laugh along. Like at a 4th of July gathering 1-2 yrs ago, she told them only one person in the hammock at a time -- Erin, Law, and Tori -- grown ass adults -- all climb in at once, break it, and walk away laughing and tell Mama Jane she's over reacting!? WTF -- she's an older lady likely on a fixed budget, buy her a new hammock and install it before you go.

Likewise Alyssa barely hid her annoyance at Ally's 1st birthday when her older siblings were helping to prep and acting like they had never had fresh fruit before (likely something Gil doesn't spring for as it's pricey) doing the -- chop a strawberry, eat a strawberry, go back to chopping with the same hands that touched my mouth, who cares if it's unhygienic + results in a half tray of fruit salad. And this was people like Law/Nathan/Erin!? While Jeb/Jud ran around trying to destroy her house. She must've said something off camera though bc since then we see G&K visit alone; she often invites down 1-2 older boys alone like Trace or Isiah; and on the rare instance that G&K come with younger kids, they only bring 2-3 of them and now Gil is seen following them very closely around her house + being like -- I'm going to take them to the park/beach/Home Depot etc. to get them out of Alyssa's hair. Gil seems to get it/care more than Kelly when Alyssa is pissed.

Even Michael who LOVES kids and clearly enjoys doing projects with her younger siblings and nieces/nephews is still very much a mom -- telling them no, telling them how they'll do x or y. Like with caramel apples, she was very clear that she and Brandon would handle the caramel, while it was drying - no one was to touch it and they would be outside playing with leaves etc. She was not going to have kids hands in caramel running off touching her couch and then laugh it off.

[RebeccatheWriter]

The boys are a bit harder for me to fully understand and get a read on really. Trace seems very entrenched by the whole thing and is clearly a mama's boy. Nathan was the same until his break up. I still see a lot of the bitterness in him over that. However, unlike Zach who decided to find a woman on his own terms rather than rely on his parents, Nathan seems to manifest his bitterness in the form of snide remarks about his sisters choices in hair, makeup, or dresses for a wedding. 

I sort of wonder if Lawson's bachelorhood is actually a bit of defiance toward his parents. He gets to do things he wants (mission trips, music, buying things he likes, etc.) without the responsibility of supporting a family. If he was truly carrying things financially in his teen years for Gil and Kelly, I bet the freedom he has now (even sharing a room with his brothers) has to feel pretty darn good. 

16 hours ago, cereality said:

It's interesting you mention Michael's wedding, I had totally forgotten. You're right she wasn't a total pushover. I wonder if some of that comes from her fundie beliefs too. You are under mom and dad's control until you become a WIFE and that's what makes you a WOMAN under your husband's control; so the wedding is for you and your husband -- and like most husbands Brandon deferred to Michael on it and thus she was like -- nope this is how WE want it, even if mom and Erin think otherwise. I don't recall much of it, but I do remember her being insistent on one particular church and worrying whether that church was available on that date; Erin tried to convince her other churches were fine and she was like nope -- it's THIS church. I also remember being surprised that she served real food. I know the Bates weddings aren't as pathetic as the Duggars, but they've gotten bigger lately with the social media savvy daughters. The older kids did punch and cake receptions (as did Tori bc she didn't give a $hit and clarified she'd do whatever Kelly wanted that was quick bc she just wanted to hit the motel bed w Bobby), as I expect they wanted all of the limited $$ to go into the wedding grandeur (ahem Erin) and that's what their parents had always seen and recommended. Michael OTOH worked out an agreement with the family she nannied for which owns a restaurant in town to provide chicken and sides for dinner. And then later when Erin and Carlin tried to redecorate her Chicago apt -- Kelly was the one appeasing her saying "it's just furniture, if you don't like it, they'll move it back" and Brandon when he came home was quick to say "well do YOU like it" -- as opposed to your sisters? I think she takes the fundie WIFE, this is MY marriage and MY home thing seriously.

I specifically remember Erin telling her that one church was too small and wouldn't fit as many people as she thought. She, Whitney, and Kelly Jo tried to sit and space it out to show her. Michaela told them that most of the guests would be children, as she was inviting parents with several kids each. That was also when Erin told her that if Brandon didn't want to change the date of the wedding that she could find another groom. Erin was joking, but Michaela shut her up quickly. 

Tori did have a baked potato bar at her reception, but I doubt that was her idea. It was such a contrast to Josie who picked her dress out online and was set on it (even with the trip to New York), wanted things outdoors, etc. While Tori stood off to the side holding the baby of the wedding planner volunteer and lamented about eloping with Bobby, Josie was telling people where to stand and how to line up like she wanted. I still think Josie's bouquet looked like she was carrying yard trimmings, but I respect that she did what she wanted and really seemed to only cave on the extra fabric for modesty. 

I still wonder about the true relationship between Michael and Kelly Jo at this point. They pay a lot of lip service to the whole mother daughter thing, but there are some strange moments. When they did the "girls' trip" for Tori before the wedding, Kelly Jo (in front of all of them) asked Erin and Alyssa to offer marriage advice since they were married - leaving Michaela out of that discussion despite her sitting right there. Michaela is always tasked with a variety of things to do when Kelly Jo needs it. Even on that trip, Kelly Jo sat with the sisters and said Michaela was cooking dinner for everyone. There's just an odd vibe even about the way they have talked about the infertility issue. With Erin's miscarriages, Kelly Jo was very sympathetic to Erin and was concerned and checking on her (sending the other girls to do it). The staged conversations about Michaela's struggles between her and Erin have Kelly Jo on the periphery saying things that almost come off as "good luck with that."

Quote

Alyssa has a lot of Mama Jane in her. Mama Jane doesn't even hide her annoyance when all 18 grandkids descend and act like animals and start to destroy her house. I mean even the older ones do it and G&K just laugh along. Like at a 4th of July gathering 1-2 yrs ago, she told them only one person in the hammock at a time -- Erin, Law, and Tori -- grown ass adults -- all climb in at once, break it, and walk away laughing and tell Mama Jane she's over reacting!? WTF -- she's an older lady likely on a fixed budget, buy her a new hammock and install it before you go.

Don't forget the Thanksgiving episode where Carlin was walking on the tables to put up decorations in her shoes. Jane called her out on it and Carlin said it was okay because the shoes were new. Never mind the shoes looked worn as crap. Never mind they were claiming they still bought used shoes at the thrift stores. She had been wearing them all day outside around cow pastures (as said by Jane) and was walking where they were going to eat (on top of the table cloth.  Carlin was also the one who sent Alyssa to the edge when she dropped the garlic bread, picked it up, and put it in the oven. 

I'm guessing we are about to get another Thanksgiving on the farm episode given the timeline. I am curious about the vibe between Kelly Jo and Mama Jane. The past few times Kelly Jo comes off as the lazy woman who creates extra work. The year Tori got married she plopped down in the middle of the kitchen to start discussing wedding plans while Mama Jane, Alyssa, Whitney, and others were cooking. She never lifted a finger. Papa Bill made breakfast for everyone and she showed up late. The one where the boys were building the barn thing was another time that she just stood on the sidelines and squealed every time they did something dangerous. The most exertion we see from her is when they played kickball. Given what we see of Mama Jane's personality, I'm not sure she is a big fan of Kelly Jo. 

 

 

[BitterApple]

I remember Mama Jane saying Alyssa was the only one she liked having visit, because she helps. I can't believe Gil and Kelly are that tone deaf they can't see what a strain 20+ houseguests are on an elderly couple. They really should be staying at a hotel. 

[VioletWitch]

I think Alyssa and Callie resemble Mama Jane in looks 

[cereality]

Kelly and Erin and even Tori/Josie do talk about Michael and her lack of kids as very much of a “yeah good luck with that” type of attitude. Alyssa to me always seems attitude-y as well but apparently she isn’t because she has called Michael in advance of her pregnancies to tell her so that she has time to process her thoughts/isn’t made to feel bad in front of everyone etc. I think they bent over backwards for Erin because she’s Kelly’s favorite daughter + she WAS actually getting pregnant but just kept losing the baby so they knew that’d be fixed. Given that Michael can’t get pregnant and they can’t figure why, you know Kelly/Erin just respect her less as a woman. Yet they “encourage” her to stay involved with the family they love having someone to pawn their kids off on, someone who will come cook or sew.

I honestly wish Michael had more self-confidence – something that isn’t taught in fundie women. Enough self-confidence to do her own thing more; make her own friends at school and hang with them instead of subjecting herself to her mother and sisters multiple times per week, who treat her like the poor childless aunt and use her as a nanny/housewife. I know she loves kids, but there are OTHER kids out there even if not nieces and nephews. Hell she could coach a soccer team or some other kid extracurricular like that.

Even the way they talk about her nursing school is such a back handed insult. It’s all – oh it’s SUCH a great career/calling . . . I mean you can practically hear the second part of their phrase “IF you can’t have the ULTIMATE job which is MOMMY, then I guess being a nurse is ok since she needs SOMETHING in her life since she isn’t #blessed with babies like I am.”

The boys are a wildcard. I think some of them – Trace and Jackson especially – do look up to Zach and want what he has – a beautiful wife he met himself who isn’t fundie, a nice home, a nice living, a reasonable # of kids. But Trace is scared to actually go out there and make it happen; he doesn’t know what to do – follows around Z with the sheriffs office and Chad with contracting, neither of those is what he wants but he doesn’t know what he wants and doesn’t know how to find it. So I see him falling back into the – be a mama’s boy, get a fundie wife bc mama has told him that ANY woman would be lucky to bear his kids, and just take on whatever jobs his brothers in law can get him or his parents – wouldn’t be shocked to see him at that metals co soon where Chad and Bobby worked. Jackson – it’s too soon to tell whether he’ll step out and follow Z’s path or go down the path of least resistance.

Nathan def has turned into a bitter 26 year old bc a girl dared turn him down and now has the nerve to be engaged. You can see it just in how he talks to his sisters. He went to Michael’s dress fitting and was going on about how certain dresses didn’t look good and same with Carlin or Tori going on and on about how they HAD to wear their hair down for the wedding bc that’s what guys like. Even Law who isn’t the most tactful person in the world was like -- the only correct answer is “you look great.” Yet Nathan STILL wouldn’t back off.

And Law – IDK what his deal is, but I think he enjoys having money. It seems like he works for that relief org. now as he is always on site for every tornado. IDK how they pay – maybe that they only pay when he’s working. But reality is he lives at home, so even if he’s only working 10-12 weeks/yr, with no rent that money pays for his flight lessons (which he’s likely doing bc he’s realizing from Nate that once you have a full license yourself, you can get paid to give lessons/fly with beginners). Plus when he’s home for a while w/o an emergency to tend to and wants to get out of dodge, that money pays for him to grab an AirBnb in Nashville and some studio time. His only recurring costs are probably a cell phone and clothes and while he seems to like to look good, the clothes are mostly A&F, Gap etc. so it’s not like they’re terribly expensive esp at outlets. I think he realizes that tying himself down to a wife + 10 kids means that financial freedom as well as the ability to just pick up and go is gone. He’s 27 and still has his looks. Despite his family acting like he’s an old maid, he’s got time.

[RebeccatheWriter]

I know all the leg humpers on Instagram and Facebook are wanting every show to be an hour long, but when the big drama of the episode is if Kelly Jo's daughters will glue her eyes shut with the lashes or which of Erin's kids is going to break the $19.95 foot massager Chad brought home...I'm thinking we're lacking a storyline here for 30 minutes.

I can't stand their fundy beliefs, but I have to say that Brandon and Michaela probably have the most interesting lives of all the married couples. Yes, they have freedom because of the childless issues, but they use that freedom. I can appreciate her starting a business sewing (without it being a big thing with all her sisters) and him writing and illustrating a book. You can almost picture them being able to have a normal conversation with people.

Erin and Chad still seem so stilted and like they don't know each other. I have no idea how they manage to conceive so many kids. I'm beginning to wonder if Erin calls out, "that's so sweet," after sex. They are a little more comfortable than they used to be, but they had nowhere to go but up. 

Carlin brought dresses from the "boutique." Yet she said aloud she didn't like one of the dresses. Way to market, Carlin!

I see they were playing with the timeline again. This episode had Kelly Jo and Gil going on an anniversary dinner. Their anniversary is in December. They still have Erin and Whitney pregnant. Khloe was born November 7. Holland was born November 26. 

3 hours ago, cereality said:

Kelly and Erin and even Tori/Josie do talk about Michael and her lack of kids as very much of a “yeah good luck with that” type of attitude. Alyssa to me always seems attitude-y as well but apparently she isn’t because she has called Michael in advance of her pregnancies to tell her so that she has time to process her thoughts/isn’t made to feel bad in front of everyone etc. I think they bent over backwards for Erin because she’s Kelly’s favorite daughter + she WAS actually getting pregnant but just kept losing the baby so they knew that’d be fixed. Given that Michael can’t get pregnant and they can’t figure why, you know Kelly/Erin just respect her less as a woman. Yet they “encourage” her to stay involved with the family they love having someone to pawn their kids off on, someone who will come cook or sew.

 As someone with a lot of extended family who are super fertile and having had a hysterectomy at a young age myself, I feel for Michaela at these events and even on social media. Mother's Day sucks big time. Even if you are not longing for a child (I adopted), the attitude can be so challenging. You have Kelly Jo featuring pics of each of her daughters who are mothers. Yes, it would be awkward to include Michaela, but there are ways to word it. Talk about how she is like a mother to her younger siblings. 

I know when Alyssa did one of her pregnancy announcements Carlin and Tori were guessing it was Michaela and kept asking her point blank. That is just rude and cruel. My kids are Asian. I am not. I am very honest with people that I had a hysterectomy due to cancer and am very happy to be alive after the experience. Still I get people asking if I'm pregnant. I just graduated again. I stopped by my office to pick up something (still working from home now) and a coworker said congratulations to me about graduation. Another coworker jumped in and said, "Oh my God are you pregnant?" Way to stab me in the feelings. I laughed it off and said I won't wear that shirt again if it makes me look pregnant, but dang that hurt. 

Zach is the only one who really seems to care anything about Michaela in that family. I think Alyssa does show more respect to Michaela than the others, mainly because I think they had to work together so much as kids. The sisters all seem to act in varying degrees like infertility is contagious. 

Josie and Katie are about the line where Michaela really started taking over the raising of the kids and running the house. I have to wonder what their relationship is like with her. My mom is the oldest of a lot of siblings and had a lot of responsibilities like Michaela. Her youngest siblings don't even remember her living at home since she moved out after high school graduation. One of my uncles was 6 years old when I was born. My mom was 26. He's always been more like a cousin to me. He said once that he didn't realize my mom was his own sister until he was 13 or so. He thought she was a babysitter. 

[andromeda331]

Kelly uses Michael but unfortunately she doesn't realize it. She used her to raise her kids, to dump work on while not doing anything. Every time she visited Kelly dumped work on her the second she walked through the door. I really wish Michael would realize it.

Kelly loves having other people do her hair and make up. Josie (unless that was Carlin saying it) your mother loves other people raising her kids, running her house and doing everything else. In her case she turned her daughters into her servants. 

Listening to the kids talk about how romantic Gil was might have been nice if they weren't the couple who dumped all their work on their kids while they went out to dinner (Gil's bragged about bring back a piece of steak or something and letting the kids fight over who gets it), and constantly traveling with Kelly. Its not hard to find time to do that when your not taking care of your kids and grift people for free trips. 

Okay watching the kids putting their feet in the water was cute. But more of Erin does so much. What exactly does she do? She comes up with decorating ideas and makes Chad do them, she volunteers him for jobs, she sort of works for the dress business but they have a lot of help and you don't really ever see her doing anything. Tori's apparently teaching two of her kids. What does she do? No wonder she's following her mother's example get all the rewards and praise while not actually doing any of the work.

[sATL]

was that Kelli's version of a little black dress?  Let me try to be grateful it wasn't her usual get-up that even the kid-adults had something to say about.

I kinda wish the girls would have touched up her hair color..

why the wearing glasses if she had the lasik surgery?

Edited May 15, 2020 by sATL

[RebeccatheWriter]

2 hours ago, sATL said:

was that Kelli's version of a little black dress?  Let me try to be grateful it wasn't her usual get-up that even the kid-adults had something to say about.

I kinda wish the girls would have touched up her hair color..

why the wearing glasses if she had the laser surgery?

I wondered about the glasses too. My mother had eye surgery too. She can see without her glasses with no issues. The one exception being if she is driving in the dark and/or rain. My father had it and still has to wear glasses to read, as it only improved his distance vision. 

[Sew Sumi]

She put on her glasses to open up a necklace. Was it inscribed? 

Thanks for reminding me about her Lasik. I'd totally forgotten about that when she pulled out the glasses.

[sATL]

15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Kelly uses Michael but unfortunately she doesn't realize it. She used her to raise her kids, to dump work on while not doing anything. Every time she visited Kelly dumped work on her the second she walked through the door. I really wish Michael would realize it.

Kelly loves having other people do her hair and make up. Josie (unless that was Carlin saying it) your mother loves other people raising her kids, running her house and doing everything else. In her case she turned her daughters into her servants. 

Listening to the kids talk about how romantic Gil was might have been nice if they weren't the couple who dumped all their work on their kids while they went out to dinner (Gil's bragged about bring back a piece of steak or something and letting the kids fight over who gets it), and constantly traveling with Kelly. Its not hard to find time to do that when your not taking care of your kids and grift people for free trips. 

Okay watching the kids putting their feet in the water was cute. But more of Erin does so much. What exactly does she do? She comes up with decorating ideas and makes Chad do them, she volunteers him for jobs, she sort of works for the dress business but they have a lot of help and you don't really ever see her doing anything. Tori's apparently teaching two of her kids. What does she do? No wonder she's following her mother's example get all the rewards and praise while not actually doing any of the work.

I was thinking she does very little if 4 yr old carson thinks he is 'man of the house" when Chad is out.

Edited May 15, 2020 by sATL

[3 is enough]

I don't know if LASIK is like cataract surgery, but when I had my cataracts removed I had 20/20 vision after being extremely nearsighted my whole life.  BUT I need reading glasses now and I never needed them before the surgery.  Maybe it's the same thing with LASIK?  

That would explain the reading glasses.

Edited May 15, 2020 by 3 is enough

[EVS]

I was in my late 30s when I had LASIK. I was told that it would correct my distance vision but that, like most people, I would still need reading glasses when I got older. 

[Absolom]

Lack of new TV shows seems to be helping the Bates show marginally:  322 K viewers and a .08 rating.  91st cable show of the day.

[Sew Sumi]

And the episodes are more and more vapid. Go figure. 

[Fostersmom]

On 5/10/2020 at 4:28 AM, sATL said:

I watched the episode from DVR, set to tape on Thursday.  There were 2 info-commercials where Kelli is stating about how these are trying times and that they enjoy bringing the show to us viewers.

Little curious how a family of 30+ are "sheltering in place" during all of this time, who seem always be with each other for the smallest daily life events. Wished she would have dropped a comment , showed a scene, etc on that point, like other tv personalities have.

Then she says there is a website uptv.com/feedback to leave comments about the show.

Is the show in trouble? Contract renewal time? Testing the waters for a spinoff  idea? I can't see the Bates making major changes based upon what we do/don't want to see. But like the Duggars,for a different reason, they might need to consider to spin-off to focus on the kid-adults, as there will be a while before another Bates daughter wedding. We will have to see if Lawson's wedding has as much draw/interest/ratings boost , as John David's wedding did.

RE: the tree job - If those men showed up in my yard arguing who is going to do what, I would have asked them to leave. Not a good professional look. And when the trunk/base of the tree , dropped, Gil was standing too close to it. He was off to the side  , but didn't need to be that close.

It might be due to the fact that some cable providers are offering UP TV for free this month.  I've always had UP as part of my cable package on Spectrum, but I also know they are giving to all their subscribers this month along with some random kids programming channels. Last month it was Showtime and some other movie channel. In theory they might have new eyeballs seeing the show for the first time. 

I half assed watched the tree removal episode this morning. Holy crap, can Gil's ass get any bigger? And how was it he had to wear his sling, which didn't look like he had it on right, when they got to the daughter in Florida, but by the end of the trip, he was not only NOT wearing the sling, but holding the youngest granddaughter in that arm for a picture at the picnic?  I agree Kelly looked every out of place in how she dressed for church compared to the rest of them. If I was her daughter, I'd be embarrassed. She has nicer dresses, but chose to dress like she was doing grocery shopping on a Wednesday. It would be one thing if what she had on was her best dress, but it wasn't, and she obviously knows how her daughter dresses for church. And as always, Kelly just comes off as so willfully dumb and just dim. 

I have to wonder how the Bates family will survive when their show is cancelled. Let's be honest, they have everything they have now thanks to the Duggars. JimBob got their house repaired and added on to. JimBob's connections got them a TLC show, which then led to the UP TV show. I have no doubts the Duggars will be fine when their show is cancelled, JimBob has a ton of investments they can live off of. I don't get them impression the Bates family could last a year at best without their show.... or going back to borrowing money from their sons and now sons in laws. I don't think Gil's got any sort of a back up plan. 

 

[3 is enough]

I'm guessing that Gil gets a salary from being on the IBLP board, along with the money from UP.  With 7 kids married, and Lawson seemingly self-sufficient, I'm sure they have a much more comfortable lifestyle these days.  Having said that, I highly doubt that he has put any money away in case things go south.  No doubt they would just revert back to grifting, and guilting the married kids into helping support "the most wonderful parents ever". I highly doubt he ever paid into social security except for those few years at Nabisco, and probably doesn't realize that he will get nothing or next to nothing when the time comes.

Some of the adult kids may have learned some lessons from their hand-to-mouth childhood and appear to be more careful with their money. The ones who come to mind are Zach, Michaela, Alyssa, Josie, and Lawson.  Alyssa and Josie are having some success as influencers, and while they may not make a ton of money, they are getting free merchandise which they otherwise could not afford, which definitely helps with the budget.

[cereality]

Gil is no where near as savvy as Jim Bob. Highly doubt he's been using the 10 seasons of BUB to buy rental properties and cell phone towers that will throw off revenue long after the show is history. Part of it is that UP likely doesn't pay like TLC, but part of it is likely also that he has no clue to do these things. He prob does qualify for some social security though. He was at Nabisco until Zach was around 10=12 -- and he took the job around when Kelly got pregnant w Zach; so likely he has contributed for 10 years in his career to qualify.

I assume the plan is that as soon as the show goes off the air, the adult boys living in the house will suddenly have to contribute their earnings to G&K as room and board and said room and board will basically run the home financially. If this happens in the next 1-3 years, look for Lawson, Nathan, Trace, and Jackson to rush for the exits and suddenly decide now is the time to take a wife as they'll all be ages 21-30. So then that only leaves 7 kids at home, with Warden and Isaiah being 18 and 19 so THEY will then have to contribute their earnings. Plus look for Gil to get the tree biz up and running for real when the BUB contract doesn't renew. I imagine he'll have Warden, Isaiah, and whichever married sons need income working for the business full time, as a real business that seeks customers/contracts and bringing in money but because he'll remain owner, he'll make sure to give himself enough of a cut to make sure him and Kelly can run their household.

That status quo could continue for years with 7 kids and eventually Warden, Isaiah, Ellie, and Addie would all leave to get married as they're close in age -- though he'd prob make sure to keep a few boys in the tree biz bc he needs income -- but then G&K are left with just Callie, Jeb and Jud who'd only be ages 13-15 by the time Warden was 21 so they'd be home for a while longer. But for people who've ran such a huge household on a budget for decades, 2 parents + 3 kids is nothing financially esp with Gil getting a % of the tree income that'll be brought in by the married off sons.