S01.E02: Maps and Legends

[Netfoot]

5 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

The difference in real vs replicated could be the smells and the having to wait a long time before you can eat it (anticipation). 

So, you could ask the replicator for raw, whole eggs, butter, salt, etc, and cook your own "omelette"  then? Couldn't be worse than the genuine (but obviously horrible) eggs Riker used.

[853fisher]

I enjoyed this episode too.  I could've used more plot development, but the end left me feeling "wow, it's over already?" and not "God, that dragged."

 

The post-show was interesting.  I adore Wil Wheaton but think it could've been half the length.  Akiva Goldsman didn't add much besides meaningful nods.

[HotRats2112]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:30 PM, starri said:

Vasquez Rocks has served as various planets for every Trek series, except for Disco, which films in Canada.  It's been Vulcan multiple times, most recently in the 2009 Star Trek.

This is the first time it's ever been what it actually is, the mountains of Southern California.

Don't forget in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. Where they actually watch the episode of TOS before they get tossed off the rock to their deaths.  

 

Also, I'm with whoever said swearing seems wrong in Star Trek.  If anything the F word would be replaced by new cursing that far in the future.  Like how farging was such a bad word in the 1800's.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by HotRats2112

[Anduin]

51 minutes ago, HotRats2112 said:

Also, I'm with whoever said swearing seems wrong in Star Trek.  If anything the F word would be replaced by new cursing that far in the future.  Like how farging was such a bad word in the 1800's.  

I disagree. While frelling is good for Farscape, and fraking in BSG, I think any swearing in Trek would just sounds weird. Same with boyfriend, and girlfriend when it popped up in Star Wars. Some words just sound wrong in certain situations.

[benteen]

After a strong pilot, Picard took a big step backwards with this episode.

Where to begin...there was some outright terrible acting by the guest cast here.  The Admiral arguing with Picard was terrible and that whole conversation was cliched.  If Picard didn't get along with this admiral, why go to her in the first place?  More than fair to point out that after trashing Starfleet, he wasn't likely to get a ship in the first place.

More bad acting the "Vulcan" commodore (I always liked this rank better) and Lt. Rizzo.  Damn, that was terrible, with "Vulcan" commodore practically twirling her mustache to her equally unsubtle conspirator.  How do these two possibly stay hidden without Starfleet? 

This episode had WAY too much exposition, starting with the scene in Dahj's apartment and ending the episode with a long, boring conversation between Rizzo and the Romulan scientist.  This show seems to be throwing a ton of ideas out there and then explaining them to death.  Not a good look for this show already.

Roddenberry's utopia was always unrealistic but now we have gone to another extreme with how the Federation is portrayed, including having synthetic slave workers.  I did like the synths though.

This show is desperately trying to be edgy television.  It reminds me of the pilot of BSG, where they just kept having random sex scenes in a desperate attempt to convince the audience how edgy they were.  They settled down with that and worked it in a lot better after that initial episode but that's kind of what Picard is reminding me of.

Stewart is good as always and some of the new cast is too.  I liked meeting someone he served with on the Stargazer.  

I think this show will be fine going forward but the one-dimensional portrayal of the villain Romulans and Starfleet/The Federation (basically anyone who disagrees with Picard) is a definite source for concern.  The Romulans on TOS were always a lot more interesting than this group.

Edited February 3, 2020 by benteen

[Hiyo]

Quote

The Romulans on TOS were always a lot more interesting than this group.

The Romulans on TOS were just kind of...there. Nothing to really differentiate them from the others aliens on that show. Plus they were only in like 2 episodes on TOS.

[HotRats2112]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

I disagree. While frelling is good for Farscape, and fraking in BSG, I think any swearing in Trek would just sounds weird. Same with boyfriend, and girlfriend when it popped up in Star Wars. Some words just sound wrong in certain situations.

We're actually on the same page with this one.  I think it sounds out of place.  My examples were more of a... if you HAD to have cursing in Star Trek.  

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

The Romulans on TOS were just kind of...there. Nothing to really differentiate them from the others aliens on that show. Plus they were only in like 2 episodes on TOS.

The Romulan commanders were played by Mark Lenard and Joanne Linville.  They were great in their roles and their characters were more compelling than this lot.

Edited February 3, 2020 by benteen

[Lebanna]

I didn’t have a problem with the swearing here for the same reason that I don’t  mind it in Westworld - because these people are behaving completely inappropriately, even for the situation they are in.
 

In the scene the admiral is implying that Picard is an old coot potentially suffering from dementia - she should be taking the high road and treating him with perhaps sympathetic, polite disdain for his aggression towards her organization. And I think he would have understood that, on some level.
 

But yet she suddenly gets right up on her hind legs and basically screams ‘fuck you and the horse you rode in on’ right in his face. It’s just so incredibly wrong... so inappropriate and unexpected and yet it reminds me of how we didn’t ever expect to have to watch Wolf Blitzer or whoever saying words like ‘shit-hole’ when quoting our most important figures. 
 

For Picard it would give him that same feeling of falling into a universe we don’t quite recognize. What the hell is this place, if this is how we talk now in meetings? 

For dramatic reasons, I felt like here it worked. 
 

But if Picard himself starts swearing it will completely freak me out.

[Hiyo]

Quote

their characters were more compelling than this lot.

To each their own. I'm finding this lot compelling and and am enjoying them.

[Ottis]

This show has the uncanny ability to make me ask questions in one ep about things that don't make sense, that are then answered in the next ep by the characters (so for a week I wonder why no one on the show has asked them). 

This time I was wondering why a Romulan is in Starfleet, and why Federation scientists/citizens are openly working with Romulans (in charge?) on a Borg cube. But I guess that admiral is assumed to be Vulcan? 

Sad to say, but Picard's actions through two eps do indeed seem like those of a cantankerous old man who wants attention. He's not making me feel like he is able to save anything.

I already can't stand beardy McScientist on the cube, just as much as I couldn't stand beardyBadGuy on Disco. I guess I'm an anti-beardite, because I find both characters insufferably smug and not at all attractive.  And we are to assume he is the director of the Borg project, from his odd 'no I don't need permission" comment?

I did love what they did with the Borg. I always thought Borg were too sanitized in the TV show and movies, given that are living people with mechanical appendages inserted into them. Liked this reality more.

Pretty slow overall, though.

[wanderingstar]

Good episode!

Hearing the term "synthetic labor units" in the flashback sent a chill down my spine.

Oh hey, Tamlyn Tomita! And Peyton List (with an English accent!) Plus, David Paymer, too! I'm loving spotting all these actors I've always adored on this show.

I like Zhaban and Laris and their relationship with Picard.

So, there's a super secret cabal among the Romulans that's even more secret than the infamous Tal Shiar! Sounds interesting. Still meh on Narek.

With all this Maddox talk...are we eventually going to see the man himself?

[paigow]

If this show goes for the TOS callback, any Maddox we meet now will in fact be a synthetic. The real Maddox died years ago....

If Luddites hate technology, what is the term for those that hate facial hair? Brynnerite?

[Netfoot]

Pogonophobia is the fear of beards or bearded persons. Which is not the same as hate...

(I get pretty bushy between trips to the barber...)

[DavidJSnyder]

17 hours ago, paigow said:

If this show goes for the TOS callback, any Maddox we meet now will in fact be a synthetic. The real Maddox died years ago....

I'm confused.  Maddox isn't from TOS.  He's from TNG.

The actor is apparent;y the Director of Theater Arts at Caltech now, which is kind of neat.

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

I'm confused.  Maddox isn't from TOS.  He's from TNG.

The actor is apparent;y the Director of Theater Arts at Caltech now, which is kind of neat.

What Are Little Girls Made Of? Is a TOS episode. Dr. Roger Corby crashed on a frozen planet inhabited by an android - Ruk- that outlived his humanoid creators. Ruk could not save Corby, but kept him alive long enough to transfer his memories into a physical copy. This is the callback...

[DavidJSnyder]

27 minutes ago, paigow said:

What Are Little Girls Made Of? Is a TOS episode. Dr. Roger Corby crashed on a frozen planet inhabited by an android - Ruk- that outlived his humanoid creators. Ruk could not save Corby, but kept him alive long enough to transfer his memories into a physical copy. This is the callback...

Richard Maddox is the character from Measure of a Man who wanted to take Data apart and who Data later corresponds with in Data's Day.  I think that's the actor people are referring to in terms of bringing back.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

What Are Little Girls Made Of? Is a TOS episode. Dr. Roger Corby crashed on a frozen planet inhabited by an android - Ruk- that outlived his humanoid creators. Ruk could not save Corby, but kept him alive long enough to transfer his memories into a physical copy. This is the callback...

 

1 hour ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Richard Maddox is the character from Measure of a Man who wanted to take Data apart and who Data later corresponds with in Data's Day.  I think that's the actor people are referring to in terms of bringing back.

I think this conversation is at cross-purposes. Both are true. Bruce Maddox is a TNG character who has been referenced in Picard as the likely creator of Dahj and Soji, who may or may not make an appearance in the show down the track - the possible TOS callback explained by @paigow above would be if when Maddox does make an appearance, it turns out he is already dead and has transferred himself to a new synthetic body (which would also be a TNG reference, as there was an episode there where a scientist tried to transfer his consciousness into Data so he could live forever). Time will tell what the actual story with Maddox turns out to be!

Edited February 4, 2020 by Llywela

[dwmarch]

Personally, I always liked the theory that Arik Soong and Noonien Soong are one and the same, with Arik becoming Noonien while hiding out in the Briar Patch. Remember how Picard was trying to dumb it down for the Ba'ku regarding Data's injuries and they were all "yeah we know how to fix positronic shit, no problem!" And Soong made a backup wife so maybe he made a backup self.

[Sandman]

An interesting episode, though it seems like there's quite a bit of story being front-loaded. (Is it still backstory if we front-load it into the second episode?)

Ann Magnuson made a couple of interesting choices as Admiral Clancy -- she seems like all that anger is to cover fear. Does she know on some level she's being played? I already hate her. (Or maybe I just don't like that she's dropping F-bombs on Picard.) I will never get used to hearing that word on ST: Anything. It's pulling me out of the story. (Almost as much as Laris as the only Irish Romulan in the quadrant -- but I adore Orla Brady, so I'll allow it.)

I'm still intrigued, even if, counting "Lt. Rizzo," Commodore Oh (oh, hi, Tamlyn Tomita), Clancy and even Angry Laris, this episode showed rather a heavy over-reliance on Resting Bitch Face to move the plot along. Also, the "embedded enemy remade to pass for human" thing seems a redo of the beginning of Discovery, no?

Edited to admit: I had no memory of the name of the crabby scientist-Commander in "Measure of A Man"; if I am reliably informed by IMDB, this is a callback I completely missed. Intriguing (as our old friend might say).  

Edited February 5, 2020 by Sandman

[DedDude]

On 1/30/2020 at 2:17 PM, Netfoot said:

So... Picard demands a starship, and in return will condescend to a drop in rank to... Captain?

Entitled much?

Well, it's not like he saved the planet a few times, and the Federation a couple more.

 

[xfuse]

Quote

4. The Romulans and especially the Zhat Vash are so against anything synthetic yet are harvesting parts from the Borg. To do what?  (on a side note: that scene were they have that Nameless Borg half alive and harvesting parts was really hard to watch. Even though I dislike the Borg. 

Will it turn out that the Romulans big secret and why they are against synthetics are because they created the Borg accidentally or on purpose 

[Anduin]

Here's something I just discovered. The first three eps were originally going to be two, but apparently they ran shot on exposition. Ep 2 is the one that got most of the new material. Yeah, the producers and director talked about it here.

While I liked it, I could have done with less exposition and a little faster story.

[paigow]

On 2/6/2020 at 10:34 AM, DedDude said:

Well, it's not like he saved the planet a few times, and the Federation a couple more.

Think what would have happened to humanity if Q had picked Jellicoe for first contact with Delta Quadrant Borg.....

Edited February 8, 2020 by paigow

[Tyro49]

What is the aftershow and how do I watch it? I haven't noticed anything about it listed on All-Access.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

What is the aftershow and how do I watch it? I haven't noticed anything about it listed on All-Access.

It's called The Ready Room, hosted by Wil Wheaton. I've been watching it on the official Star Trek Facebook page where it isn't region-locked. It is also available region-free on Instagram - you can find the posts on both the CBS Star Trek and Wheaton's own Instagram pages. Wheaton interviews a different cast member each week, as well as talking to members of the production team, and at the end of each episode previews a clip from the next episode of the show.

[starri]

It's on YouTube as well.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 2/3/2020 at 9:36 AM, benteen said:

After a strong pilot, Picard took a big step backwards with this episode.

 

On 2/3/2020 at 9:36 AM, benteen said:

This show is desperately trying to be edgy television. 

Yes, the first episode seemed to create a feeling of excitement and possibility. But this episode seemed to establish a pessimistic tone for the series. 
We already had a super secret Romulan kill squad. This episode introduced an asshole admiral,  a clueless or colluding commodore, and a pair of sinister - possibly incestuous -siblings. Did we need to have such a grim and ominous atmosphere set up so early? 

Edited March 26, 2020 by shrewd.buddha

[blueray]

On 3/25/2020 at 12:40 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

 

Yes, the first episode seemed to create a feeling of excitement and possibility. But this episode seemed to establish a pessimistic tone for the series. 
We already had a super secret Romulan kill squad. This episode introduced an asshole admiral,  a clueless or colluding commodore, and a pair of sinister - possibly incestuous -siblings. Did we need to have such a grim and ominous atmosphere set up so early? 

This is how I felt when watching it. I didn't hate the episode but it did leaving wondering, why does almost every character have to be lying or manipulating in some way especially this early in the show? And why is everything so dark and gloomy or creepy futuristic? I kind of miss the fun times of shows like TNG and SG1 but I guess that world is gone 😞.

I feel this show still hasn't given me the character development I want in a good show. Yes, I know who Picard is but the other characters just sort of pop in and pop out.  Hopefully this improves as the show goes on. I do like the assistant people that work with Picard even though I can't remember either of their names.

[Affogato]

On 2/2/2020 at 5:52 PM, Netfoot said:

So, you could ask the replicator for raw, whole eggs, butter, salt, etc, and cook your own "omelette"  then? Couldn't be worse than the genuine (but obviously horrible) eggs Riker used.

On voyager they are always making food with replicated ingredients, although Neelix incorporates a variety of delta quadrant plants in his food, to save on replicator energy. Coffee beans, for example. He seems to make coffee by the pot and serve it to the crew. 

[Affogato]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:21 AM, benteen said:

The Romulan commanders were played by Mark Lenard and Joanne Linville.  They were great in their roles and their characters were more compelling than this lot.

Also I thought they felt more alien/not human in tos. My understanding is that they were the same genetic stock as Vulcans (I could even be wrong in that, but they were certainly set as a contrast to the Vulcans), but had not decided to suppress what were unusually strong (by human standards) emotional reactions, and that they were in many ways more relatable than the Vulcans. 

In Picard, some oddly medieval cult groups aside (and that seems to match with the Vulcans, also) they seem to be humans with pointy ears. 

[Affogato]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:58 PM, Netfoot said:

Why do they have different eyebrows?

Advanced space waxing spas.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

In Picard, some oddly medieval cult groups aside (and that seems to match with the Vulcans, also) they seem to be humans with pointy ears. 

I read Picard's take on the Romulans very differently - I thought the show did a great job of expanding this previously rather two-dimensional alien race, adding depth, dimension and diversity to them and exploring their culture in a variety of new ways. Through Picard we learned about Romulan language, religion and mythology in a way on-screen Star Trek has never seen before. The show also showed multiple facets of Romulan society by giving screen time to a number of different sects and worldviews, instead of presenting them as a single homogenous whole. They were no more 'humans with pointy ears' than the Vulcans have ever been, imo.

[Affogato]

28 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I read Picard's take on the Romulans very differently - I thought the show did a great job of expanding this previously rather two-dimensional alien race, adding depth, dimension and diversity to them and exploring their culture in a variety of new ways. Through Picard we learned about Romulan language, religion and mythology in a way on-screen Star Trek has never seen before. The show also showed multiple facets of Romulan society by giving screen time to a number of different sects and worldviews, instead of presenting them as a single homogenous whole. They were no more 'humans with pointy ears' than the Vulcans have ever been, imo.

Perhaps at this point I just see all the star trek aliens as human. Q is pretty human for an omnipotent god type and the horta are darn relatable for rocks. 

Thinking that if you replaced the Romulans with humans you could show the same facets of the race, tell the same stories. Yes, it would be a stretch to get there. Why are these humans developing independent of other humans? Why did Picard have to save them? Making them aliens makes getting them there a lot easier. But they are pretty darn human. 

How do humans write a nonhuman character as generally alien? It has been done. But Star Trek is usually about morality, even as it has slipped away from the morality plays of TOS.

There are some genuine aliens in Star Trek, but the ones I remember are one offs. The pinpoints of light, positronic briney sand alien in the first season of TNG is one, maybe?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Affogato

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

How do humans write a nonhuman character as generally alien? It has been done. But Star Trek is usually about morality, even as it has slipped away from the morality plays of TOS.

There are some genuine aliens in Star Trek, but the ones I remember are one offs. The pinpoints of light, positronic briney sand alien in the first season of TNG is one, maybe?

At the end of the day, your basic humanoid is just plain easier to represent on-screen than anything else! I suppose that's why the worldbuilding around them is so important, so that you aren't just telling basically human stories about humans-with-a-makeup-job. And Picard checked that box, for me - the storytelling around the Romulans was rooted in their very specific culture of secrecy and paranoia, as established in previous iterations of Trek. You could not tell the same story with Klingons, for instance! I don't think it would work with humans, either, really. But it did also broaden and deepen our understanding of Romulans in general - the show, did, I agree, humanise the Romulans in the sense of making them more relatable, in general, by showing us that there is more to them than just the secrecy and paranoia we'd already seen so many times. They were given many more facets than they've ever had before, just by virtue of increased representation - we got to meet multiple Romulans all with different backgrounds and belief systems, motivations and ambitions, which allowed them to move from two dimensional antagonists rooted in mystery to a fleshed out and complex culture.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Llywela

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

At the end of the day, your basic humanoid is just plain easier to represent on-screen than anything else! I suppose that's why the worldbuilding around them is so important, so that you aren't just telling basically human stories about humans-with-a-makeup-job. And Picard checked that box, for me - the storytelling around the Romulans was rooted in their very specific culture of secrecy and paranoia, as established in previous iterations of Trek. You could not tell the same story with Klingons, for instance! I don't think it would work with humans, either, really. But it did also broaden and deepen our understanding of Romulans in general - the show, did, I agree, humanise the Romulans in the sense of making them more relatable, in general, by showing us that there is more to them than just the secrecy and paranoia we'd already seen so many times. They were given many more facets than they've ever had before, just by virtue of increased representation - we got to meet multiple Romulans all with different backgrounds and belief systems, motivations and ambitions, which allowed them to move from two dimensional antagonists rooted in mystery to a fleshed out and complex culture.

You are right. They are doung a good job with the Romulans. 

in our current climate I can’t help but think of the deep state, conspiracy theories surrounding the virus, the many paranoid humans....

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:21 AM, benteen said:

The Romulan commanders were played by Mark Lenard and Joanne Linville.  They were great in their roles and their characters were more compelling than this lot.

And then Mark Lenard became Sarek.

Two eps in (on DVD) and I'm already enjoying this more than Disco.