S12.E01: Spyfall (1)

[tessaray]

3 minutes ago, rwlevin said:

Wasn't that also the reasoning that 12 looked like the dad from Volcano Day? That he had so much guilt about all the lives he's destroyed, he subconsciously regenerated into the likeness of somebody he had met before (and ironically hadn't gotten killed? ) plus with the timelords gone, there really aren't any rules about regeneration anymore. 

Yep. I didn't mention that one because it was such a lame explanation. 🙂 

Eta: Romana got a little pushback from the Doctor about that choice, which she airily brushed off.  That seems in keeping with the Master's personality.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

 I do agree the companions are the weakest links. I still don't like Ryan and Yaz. I would love to see Graham be her only companion. 

I would be down for this. I am enjoying Jodie very much, but I just don't like The Doctor with three companions. Even two is one too many for me. I enjoy Graham but both Ryan and Yaz leave me wishing their scenes were over.

[DanaK]

9 hours ago, elle said:

On topic! Where was the party supposed to be?  I missed if there was a title card.

No title card, but I think it may have been held at Barton’s place in San Francisco

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would be down for this. I am enjoying Jodie very much, but I just don't like The Doctor with three companions. Even two is one too many for me. I enjoy Graham but both Ryan and Yaz leave me wishing their scenes were over.

I felt the same. And I like Graham's scenes with the "Doc". 

Yes, we have had multiple companions in the past and I didn't always mind them (loved Tegan, Turlough and Nyssa). But for some reason this seems too forced.

Edited January 2, 2020 by libgirl2

[chitowngirl]

36 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And I like Graham's scenes with the "Doc". 

I love that he calls her “Doc”!

[arachne]

44 minutes ago, DanaK said:

No title card, but I think it may have been held at Barton’s place in San Francisco

That vineyard around the place suggests Napa Valley to me -- so just outside the city proper. 

I got a kick out of the .007 shout-outs (the episode title, showing off all the gadgets, the formal dress party, the motorbike chase thru a vineyard.)

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think those long strands in the strange place may be DNA molecules. Because victims' DNA was being messed with.

[Prower]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Why do I feel like we are all over critiquing Jodie Whittaker and her acting choices?

We weren't. We were saying that the doctors overreaction was stupid. I'm reasonably sure that the director told Whittaker to act it like she had just seen Gallifrey explode in fronnt of her eyes.

  

1 hour ago, rwlevin said:

Wasn't that also the reasoning that 12 looked like the dad from Volcano Day? That he had so much guilt about all the lives he's destroyed, he subconsciously regenerated into the likeness of somebody he had met before (and ironically hadn't gotten killed? ) plus with the timelords gone, there really aren't any rules about regeneration anymore. 

Well yeah, that was a fun retcon. But that was subconcious. The master seems to have picked this appearance though.

I think it was kinda implied before that timeladies can pick their appearence after a regeneratiion and the master was a timelady last, so...

The timelords are back, btw. But that wouldn't have any influence on regenneration.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Prower

[DanaK]

During my first viewing, "O" seemed off to me at times but I figured it was due to him being a nerdy analyst guy and having been kicked out of MI6 and living alone in the Outback. Once you knew he was the Master, rewatches make things more interesting. It's pretty clear he was trying to set some doubt in Graham's mind about the Doctor when he offered his shelf of material on the Doctor. Also, it certainly seemed to me that he was just eagerly waiting for the Doctor to twig to him. He certainly seemed to purposely push how he was not good at running when O's file said otherwise and he was thrilled when the Doctor finally got who he was. Everything was set up by him it seems. What I don't get for now is if he wanted the Doctor to die in the plane crash (I'm presuming), why did one of the light aliens disappear with her? I guess we'll find out in Part 2

I should point out that though I said I read spoilers about Sacha being the Master, I figured he was deep undercover and would reveal himself later in the season or that perhaps the spoilers were wrong, or I mis-identified the actor

Edited January 2, 2020 by DanaK

[Joe Hellandback]

I've been watching Dr Who since Tom Baker turned into a cactus (a prize for whoever can recognise that reference). I stopped when Bonnie Langford joined because she was just so APPALLING! However Sophie Aldred's Ace came along and rescued the series, Sylvester McCoy no longer the joke he had been but the conspiring clown, possibly the most ruthless and calculating Dr ever. For me, this last ep felt like that, the last season was just so lacklustre I began to lose interest. But this last ep rescued it for me;

1. I like the fact that we see how the Dr's assistants keep up with their private lives whilst travelling with him, you always did wonder. Not so remarkable that Yasmin could be seconded for undercover work, even a probationer could be given the assignment if they needed someone young, fresh and of the right background.

2. Boy, Bradley Walsh looks surprisingly dashing in his tux. He's also a much better gambler than everyone else. That said the 'snap' gag is cool. 

3. Stephen Fry is great as C, I always thought he would make a great Mycroft Holmes. Although I was reminded of Tony Marchant Super Spy;

 4. Nice reference to Torchwood and UNIT, we really need a new organisation to replace them.

5. Nice turn from Lenny Henry, seems to really draw from his own background. You rather hope he's not the absolute villain, the tech mogul as the bad guy has become such a cliche.

6. The villains rather remind me of the Vardans from The Invasion of Time?

7. Interesting reveal of O's bookshelf, I almost expected it to be full of Target books. The nickname O was actually the term for Sir Ormonde Winter, head of British intelligence in Dublin Castle who was instrumental in defeating the IRA in the 1920s. 

8. Nice ref to the Intelligence agencies having good catering, quite true, to avoid their employees having to go to nearby eateries making them more vulnerable to attack or surveillance.

9. Anyone twig the new Master? LIARS! Nice touch with the shrinking murder, all the way back to the Davidson era. Great mislead, especially that Yasmin seems keen on him. Should have realised when the villains could penetrate the Tardis, had to be Gallifreyan tech.

10. Surely it would be easy to explain away his lack of athletic prowess?

The Doctor; "I checked your file, you were a champion runner?"

The Master; "Ok, I got fat and lazy, so sue me"

11. That amount of PE4 would not just destroy the cockpit, it would have blown the plane apart all the way to the wings!

 12. So the Doctor is in the netherworld? Interesting, I'm genuinely intrigued as to what will happen next week?

8/10 

21 hours ago, Llywela said:

It's back! I love it when Doctor Who is back on my screen.

I really enjoyed this episode. It was fun, and right now, that's all I ask of my TV.

Also, what a twist. I mean, as soon as O appeared, I knew I'd liked the actor in something else, and it took me a couple of scenes to place him as Sacha Dhawan from Iron Fist, but then the character was so charming and likeable I spent most of the episode hoping he wouldn't die...and then that twist! A new Master for the new era!

Does the plot stand up to scrutiny? Probably not, it rarely does, but we're only halfway through anyway, so I won't go poking at it with a stick just yet.

Very happy to see have the Doctor and her 'Fam' back. And there was plenty of good location-spotting, too, I recognised loads of shooting locations in this one. Great fun.

Agreed except I HATE THE TERM FAM!

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I've been watching Dr Who since Tom Baker turned into a cactus (a prize for whoever can recognise that reference). I stopped when Bonnie Langford joined because she was just so APPALLING! However Sophie Aldred's Ace came along and rescued the series, Sylvester McCoy no longer the joke he had been but the conspiring clown, possibly the most ruthless and calculating Dr ever. For me, this last ep felt like that, the last season was just so lacklustre I began to lose interest. But this last ep rescued it for me;

1. I like the fact that we see how the Dr's assistants keep up with their private lives whilst travelling with him, you always did wonder. Not so remarkable that Yasmin could be seconded for undercover work, even a probationer could be given the assignment if they needed someone young, fresh and of the right background.

2. Boy, Bradley Walsh looks surprisingly dashing in his tux. He's also a much better gambler than everyone else. That said the 'snap' gag is cool. 

3. Stephen Fry is great as C, I always thought he would make a great Mycroft Holmes. Although I was reminded of Tony Marchant Super Spy;

 4. Nice reference to Torchwood and UNIT, we really need a new organisation to replace them.

5. Nice turn from Lenny Henry, seems to really draw from his own background. You rather hope he's not the absolute villain, the tech mogul as the bad guy has become such a cliche.

6. The villains rather remind me of the Vardans from The Invasion of Time?

7. Interesting reveal of O's bookshelf, I almost expected it to be full of Target books. The nickname O was actually the term for Sir Ormonde Winter, head of British intelligence in Dublin Castle who was instrumental in defeating the IRA in the 1920s. 

8. Nice ref to the Intelligence agencies having good catering, quite true, to avoid their employees having to go to nearby eateries making them more vulnerable to attack or surveillance.

9. Anyone twig the new Master? LIARS! Nice touch with the shrinking murder, all the way back to the Davidson era. Great mislead, especially that Yasmin seems keen on him. Should have realised when the villains could penetrate the Tardis, had to be Gallifreyan tech.

10. Surely it would be easy to explain away his lack of athletic prowess?

The Doctor; "I checked your file, you were a champion runner?"

The Master; "Ok, I got fat and lazy, so sue me"

11. That amount of PE4 would not just destroy the cockpit, it would have blown the plane apart all the way to the wings!

 12. So the Doctor is in the netherworld? Interesting, I'm genuinely intrigued as to what will happen next week?

8/10 

Agreed except I HATE THE TERM FAM!

I started with the Fourth too but have watched all of the previous Doctors. Pertwee was always my favorite but I grew to find Troughton brilliant. I didn't care for the McCoy Doctor much. Bonnie Langford was awful, but oddly she is pretty good in the audios. And the ones with her and Colin Baker are quite good. 

This episode made me feel a bit hopeful that this season will be better than last. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by libgirl2

[Joe Hellandback]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:19 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Yaz and Ryan chatting happily away about their plans in the office of a man who built his fortune on computers and information, and not stopping to consider that he might have the place monitored.  Worst spies ever!

When Yaz showed up in Australia, I was waiting for them to find out that her DNA had been partly altered by the aliens. 
 

But the  Doc had given them tech which negated the surveillance? 

On 1/1/2020 at 8:35 PM, rwlevin said:

Yay, it’s Stephen Fry!

 

Oops, never mind.

You sure he's really gone?

 

On 1/1/2020 at 10:08 PM, GSManiac said:

Missy was never explicitly the next Master after John Simms Master. So I’d love if this new incarnation was in between those two. Make it a bit timey wimey. 

I had never considered that. 

 

13 hours ago, rwlevin said:

Wasn't that also the reasoning that 12 looked like the dad from Volcano Day? That he had so much guilt about all the lives he's destroyed, he subconsciously regenerated into the likeness of somebody he had met before (and ironically hadn't gotten killed? ) plus with the timelords gone, there really aren't any rules about regeneration anymore. 

Good call, it seems that the mythology around regeneration seems fluid. I suppose the Dr doesn't believe in choosing their new form?

13 hours ago, tessaray said:

Yep. I didn't mention that one because it was such a lame explanation. 🙂 

Eta: Romana got a little pushback from the Doctor about that choice, which she airily brushed off.  That seems in keeping with the Master's personality.

That scene always puzzled me, that Romana seemed to be using up regenerations, now I realise she was just picking and choosing. 

 

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would be down for this. I am enjoying Jodie very much, but I just don't like The Doctor with three companions. Even two is one too many for me. I enjoy Graham but both Ryan and Yaz leave me wishing their scenes were over.

The Tardis was very crowded by the late 4/early 5 incarnations, it just depends on the quality of the companion? 

[Sakura12]

Since he seems to be channeling Simms Master I'm going with this is a version before Missy too.

The companions are okay but I agree we don't need 3. Especially with getting to know a new Doctor. They should've stuck with just Graham in the beginning. While I loved Grace we could've met Graham after he lost his wife and seen him get caught up in the Doctors adventure and had them bond over loss. They could've met his step grandson Ryan and Yaz later. 

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I've been watching Dr Who since Tom Baker turned into a cactus (a prize for whoever can recognise that reference).

Meglos, I think? I know he cloned himself and went inside his body to cure himself.

2 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I love that he calls her “Doc”!

Evidently, Thirteen (JW) is more relaxed about that than Seven (CB) - "A dock is a place for mooring ships!" (can't name the episode, but it was said to Peri, IIRC).

[futurechemist]

After all the development Missy got about standing with the Doctor, I'll be disappointed if it just gets forgotten in favor of another manic evil Master. I won't mind as much if this Master is pre-Missy but it will still feel like a wasted opportunity.  Much like bringing Stephen Fry on for just 1 scene.

I do like the diversity the companions bring - age, gender, ethnicity. I just wish they weren't all from modern Britain. Other than River and Jack, has there been a companion in the modern Who era from the past, future, or not from Earth?

 

ETA I forgot Nardole. But Nardole, Jack, and River were all secondary companions. All primary companions have been from present day Britain.

Edited January 2, 2020 by futurechemist

[taanja]

On 1/1/2020 at 8:33 PM, LilJen said:

Enjoyed the scenery chewing when the new Master revealed himself.

That was great! haha! I laughed out loud! But basically that IS the master -- a master of chewing the scenery-- yo!

I was caught up all week on the Doctor Who marathon running on BBC America so I was in the mood for the new ep. It didn't disappoint!

If I think too hard -- nothing really makes sense so I just go with the flow and enjoy the show!

 

14 hours ago, Llywela said:

I've always liked Jodie Whittaker as an actress, I support her in the role 100%, I am prepared to accept her as the Doctor, but damn I wish she was given better dialogue to deliver. Most of all, I wish she didn't sound so uncertain all the time. The Doctor is traditionally more inclined to over-confidence than uncertainty, so that really undermines her, for me.

Thank you. You have stated my one issue with this Doctor more succinctly than I am able.

[tessaray]

For me, it wasn't so much her personality but the lack of other things connected to DW, other than the TARDIS and the sonic screwdriver that made the last season fall flat after a promising start. I know that was a deliberate choice but seeing the gut punch that was the Master reveal was huge for me. Going up against a familiar adversary makes it easier for us to accept that this is the Doctor, even with a new face. Especially when the companions are also all new. 

[libgirl2]

39 minutes ago, tessaray said:

For me, it wasn't so much her personality but the lack of other things connected to DW, other than the TARDIS and the sonic screwdriver that made the last season fall flat after a promising start. I know that was a deliberate choice but seeing the gut punch that was the Master reveal was huge for me. Going up against a familiar adversary makes it easier for us to accept that this is the Doctor, even with a new face. Especially when the companions are also all new. 

I agree. Somehow it felt more Doctor Who last night. 

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I've been watching Dr Who since Tom Baker turned into a cactus (a prize for whoever can recognise that reference). I stopped when Bonnie Langford joined because she was just so APPALLING! However Sophie Aldred's Ace came along and rescued the series, Sylvester McCoy no longer the joke he had been but the conspiring clown, possibly the most ruthless and calculating Dr ever. For me, this last ep felt like that, the last season was just so lacklustre I began to lose interest. But this last ep rescued it for me;

1. I like the fact that we see how the Dr's assistants keep up with their private lives whilst travelling with him, you always did wonder. Not so remarkable that Yasmin could be seconded for undercover work, even a probationer could be given the assignment if they needed someone young, fresh and of the right background.

2. Boy, Bradley Walsh looks surprisingly dashing in his tux. He's also a much better gambler than everyone else. That said the 'snap' gag is cool. 

3. Stephen Fry is great as C, I always thought he would make a great Mycroft Holmes. Although I was reminded of Tony Marchant Super Spy;

 4. Nice reference to Torchwood and UNIT, we really need a new organisation to replace them.

5. Nice turn from Lenny Henry, seems to really draw from his own background. You rather hope he's not the absolute villain, the tech mogul as the bad guy has become such a cliche.

6. The villains rather remind me of the Vardans from The Invasion of Time?

7. Interesting reveal of O's bookshelf, I almost expected it to be full of Target books. The nickname O was actually the term for Sir Ormonde Winter, head of British intelligence in Dublin Castle who was instrumental in defeating the IRA in the 1920s. 

8. Nice ref to the Intelligence agencies having good catering, quite true, to avoid their employees having to go to nearby eateries making them more vulnerable to attack or surveillance.

9. Anyone twig the new Master? LIARS! Nice touch with the shrinking murder, all the way back to the Davidson era. Great mislead, especially that Yasmin seems keen on him. Should have realised when the villains could penetrate the Tardis, had to be Gallifreyan tech.

10. Surely it would be easy to explain away his lack of athletic prowess?

The Doctor; "I checked your file, you were a champion runner?"

The Master; "Ok, I got fat and lazy, so sue me"

11. That amount of PE4 would not just destroy the cockpit, it would have blown the plane apart all the way to the wings!

 12. So the Doctor is in the netherworld? Interesting, I'm genuinely intrigued as to what will happen next week?

8/10 

Agreed except I HATE THE TERM FAM!

The cactus episode was Meglos. Your firsthand memories go back just a wee bit further than mine - the very first Doctor Who I can remember watching live was Logopolis, when I was four years old. I have vivid memories of a shiny red sports car and people in it who'd been shrunk to the size of dolls, and my mum telling me the Master had done it, and then Tom Baker turned into Peter Davison. The Master's TCE goes back way further than Davison's era, btw, it was used by the very first Master, Roger Delgado. The Master's most iconic weapon - strange to think this is the first time it has shown up in New Who.

Do we know what happened to UNIT, btw? I don't remember them being disbanded, but I stopped watching for a while during Twelve and Clara so am prepared to believe that I missed something.

As for point 10 - I'm pretty sure the Master wanted to be caught out at that point, he'd got fed up of waiting for the Doctor to recognise him!

I also dislike the word fam - all that supposedly quirky Yoof Speak they put in the Doctor's mouth annoys me almost as much as the cutesy baby talk Eleven used to use - but since it is what the Doctor herself calls her team, I am gritting my teeth and rolling with it. 😉

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

But the  Doc had given them tech which negated the surveillance?

They only used that tech one time, in the hallway, and then forgot to look out for any more cameras - they were caught on camera snooping around the office.

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Good call, it seems that the mythology around regeneration seems fluid. I suppose the Dr doesn't believe in choosing their new form?

My favourite fanon on this subject is that the Doctor is just really bad at regenerating. Probably doesn't help that they usually regenerate in a crisis, rather than in calmer circumstances.

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

Evidently, Thirteen (JW) is more relaxed about that than Seven (CB) - "A dock is a place for mooring ships!" (can't name the episode, but it was said to Peri, IIRC).

Heh, and the First Doctor was even more severe on the subject!

1 hour ago, futurechemist said:

I do like the diversity the companions bring - age, gender, ethnicity. I just wish they weren't all from modern Britain. Other than River and Jack, has there been a companion in the modern Who era from the past, future, or not from Earth?

ETA I forgot Nardole. But Nardole, Jack, and River were all secondary companions. All primary companions have been from present day Britain.

My biggest longstanding wish for New Who, for 15 years now and counting, has been for an overlapping TARDIS team acquired by the Doctor from different eras, maybe even different planets - preferably just two companions, as that's more manageable than three - with ongoing storyline commitment to exploring their very different backgrounds and how that feeds into their reactions to the Doctor and their experiences, and the relationship they form. Heck, it could even make for a beautifully angsty New Who romance storyline, with these two star-crossed lovers knowing that unless they stay with the Doctor for the rest of their lives, in order to have any future together, one of them will have to give up the world they came from forever. I mean, there's just so much obvious storyline potential there, I can't believe the show has never gone there. But no, as you say, all the primary companions have all been from the present day - they take less effort to write, I guess. But it has been an ongoing disappointment for me for years now that we haven't had more variety. The classic era had such wonderful variety of companions - from the future, from the past, from other planets - I've always longed to see what New Who could have made of similar characters.

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Tardis was very crowded by the late 4/early 5 incarnations, it just depends on the quality of the companion? 

And I forgot the first Doctor with Susan, Ian and Barbara. And when Susan left, they brought in Vicki at some point. The second Doctor also had at least 2 companions at a time, I don't think three though. So yes, maybe it is the quality of the companion. I wouldn't trade Ian, Barbara, Jaime or Zoe for Ryan or Yaz. 

[Llywela]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And I forgot the first Doctor with Susan, Ian and Barbara. And when Susan left, they brought in Vicki at some point. The second Doctor also had at least 2 companions at a time, I don't think three though. So yes, maybe it is the quality of the companion. I wouldn't trade Ian, Barbara, Jaime or Zoe for Ryan or Yaz. 

The Second Doctor had three companions for a little while - Jamie overlapped with Ben and Polly. Three was the initial standard for companions, through most of the First Doctor's run, later dropping to two. I still think two is ideal, because it makes for a nicely varied group dynamic and facilitates sub-plots, you can mix and match the pairings, etc. For a larger team to work properly, though, you have to actually write sub-plots and let them split up - one of the big problems with this group is that they spend so much time together, the three companions just trailing after the Doctor like so many ducklings. And because they don't have much to do, it is hard for us to root for them.

I think perhaps multiple companions worked better in the classic era because the stories were longer - the average serial was four episodes, the equivalent of a two-parter in today's Who. So there was more time in each story to send the characters off into separate sub-plots that gave them each a bit of time and space to breathe, which is exactly what Thirteen's gang needs. But even in today's two-parters, everything tends to happen at such break-neck speed that the characters kind of get lost in the shuffle. Mostly, I think modern Who has just forgotten how to write effectively for multiple companions.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Llywela said:

The Second Doctor had three companions for a little while - Jamie overlapped with Ben and Polly. Three was the initial standard for companions, through most of the First Doctor's run, later dropping to two. I still think two is ideal, because it makes for a nicely varied group dynamic and facilitates sub-plots, you can mix and match the pairings, etc. For a larger team to work properly, though, you have to actually write sub-plots and let them split up - one of the big problems with this group is that they spend so much time together, the three companions just trailing after the Doctor like so many ducklings. And because they don't have much to do, it is hard for us to root for them.

I think perhaps multiple companions worked better in the classic era because the stories were longer - the average serial was four episodes, the equivalent of a two-parter in today's Who. So there was more time in each story to send the characters off into separate sub-plots that gave them each a bit of time and space to breathe, which is exactly what Thirteen's gang needs. But even in today's two-parters, everything tends to happen at such break-neck speed that the characters kind of get lost in the shuffle. Mostly, I think modern Who has just forgotten how to write effectively for multiple companions.

It was during the Pertwee era we got "one companion". Yes, the Brig was around often but he didn't travel (once he was able to) and share as many adventures with the Doctor as Jo and Sarah Jane did briefly. 

I agree, a longer story makes it easier to give multiple companions things to do. When the show is about and hour or so, its harder to keep everyone busy. I do think in the modern era, things worked well with Amy and Rory (and River). But like the Brig, Rory and River weren't always around. 

[DanaK]

31 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Do we know what happened to UNIT, btw? I don't remember them being disbanded, but I stopped watching for a while during Twelve and Clara so am prepared to believe that I missed something.

Per the Resolution special last New Year's Eve, it was temporarily put on hold due to funding disputes with the UK's major partners

[HauntedBathroom]

21 hours ago, starri said:

Even without the Torchwood name-check, I thought the entire thing felt like a Torchwood episode.  A good Torchwood episode, mind.

That really doesn't mean it's any good. Torchwood was full of scripts that weren't good enough for grown up television like Doctor Who or the SJA's.

[gail56]

On 1/1/2020 at 8:44 PM, Lantern7 said:

Yeah, it probably is. I had to go through the stuff with Missy back in 2014, where I thought her being the Master was too obvious. I'd think the Doctor would have recognized her old frenemy even with the new face. Or that the TARDIS would've detected something. Or maybe I should just sit back and watch (copy-&-paste) Sacha Dhawan channel John Simm's Master. Of course, the tissue compression device is really old-school. Maybe this is pre-Simm/Gomez? Moffat did seem to make Missy's fate inescapable . . . but fuck, isn't that the fun in reviving characters?

 

I hope this is a Master from an incarnation long ago, or I am going to be really annoyed. The character development with Missy just out the window? Major dislike if that is the case. However, I can get on board with an earlier incarnation of him, like maybe before or after Delgado. I did love the actor's portrayal of him after the reveal.

I keep having a hard time getting into the companions. They are just not doing it for me. I don't sense any chemistry between them. They are just kind of there, like furniture. I find myself fast forwarding through scenes that feature them without the Doctor. If they all got shot into the sun I wouldn't care. Wish I cared about them more but I just don't.

 

On 1/1/2020 at 10:08 PM, GSManiac said:

Missy was never explicitly the next Master after John Simms Master. So I’d love if this new incarnation was in between those two. Make it a bit timey wimey. 

She told him that she couldn't remember regenerating into a woman, when asked by Simm's Master. This follows with her not being able to remember that time period since they were both in it. 

 

23 hours ago, Leia1021 said:

Wake me when 14 shows up. Still can't stand this incarnation and it never feels like Dr. Who to me. (Been watching since 3 and Jo).

It feels like I am watching a Doctor Who spin-off, but I am not totally put off the show. Yet.

Edited January 3, 2020 by gail56

[gonzosgirrl]

I feel a little dim for asking, but how could the Master not be Missy? 

[angora]

10 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Why do I feel like we are all over critiquing Jodie Whittaker and her acting choices?   I thought it was completely reasonable to be shocked at seeing The Master again.   The Doctor will be shocked and appalled each time any of his/her/their old enemies show up and wax poetic about their history.   Plus The Master has always been a bit manic especially during the villain monologue scenes.  

And in this case, I think an extreme reaction was called for for a few reasons. 1) Even though the Doctor only met "O" in person once before, they've been corresponding with him for at least one regeneration (quite possibly more - we don't know which Doctor met "O" previously.) So this is someone they've been friendly with, albeit long-distance, for years. And 2) she and her friends just got on a plane with him. It's one thing to sneak on Barton's plane to find out where he's going when he's not aware of your presence, quite another to sprint willingly into your "best enemy's" trap, where you're in an enclosed space with him thousands of feet in the air, far away from the TARDIS and right where he wants you.

[Florinaldo]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You sure he's really gone?

There is still the remote possibility a major plot twist, like C having a bunch of cryogenically frozen clones that can be revived when the active version dies. But it may well be that it was just stunt casting (or SF was not available for extended or repeated apperances as C).

1 hour ago, HauntedBathroom said:

Torchwood was full of scripts that weren't good enough for grown up television

The same could be said about a lot of the recent seasons' Doctor Who episodes

3 hours ago, DanaK said:

Per the Resolution special last New Year's Eve, it was temporarily put on hold due to funding disputes with the UK's major partners

Which I read as an expedient way for the new production team to get rid of some of the show's past baggage, perhaps with a view to establishing its own (although MI6 does not seem very promising at this early point).

10 hours ago, rwlevin said:

Wasn't that also the reasoning that 12 looked like the dad from Volcano Day? That he had so much guilt about all the lives he's destroyed, he subconsciously regenerated into the likeness of somebody he had met before

Since it was out of the Doctor's control, it is not quite equivalent to being able to control your appearance post-regeneration as the Master did this time around. That being said, internal continuity about such details was not always a big consideration for the show as it changed production teams. John Nathan-Turner was particularly nonchalant about it. Fans seem to care more about it than the people putting the show together, who are always pressured by deadlines.

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think perhaps multiple companions worked better in the classic era because the stories were longer - the average serial was four episodes, the equivalent of a two-parter in today's Who.

Excellent point, even in Classic Who the bland companions had more to do and came across better than the present two younger rather generic companions. It would be interesting for the show to ditch them and have the Doctor travel only with Graham, an apparent age reversal as compared to past practice.

[SnideAsides]

On 1/2/2020 at 7:11 AM, Llywela said:

Also, what a twist. I mean, as soon as O appeared, I knew I'd liked the actor in something else, and it took me a couple of scenes to place him as Sacha Dhawan from Iron Fist, but then the character was so charming and likeable I spent most of the episode hoping he wouldn't die...and then that twist! A new Master for the new era!

He was also Waris Hussein in An Adventure in Space and Time, the Hartnell biopic made for the 50th anniversary.

[Llywela]

43 minutes ago, SnideAsides said:

He was also Waris Hussein in An Adventure in Space and Time, the Hartnell biopic made for the 50th anniversary.

Yeah, I know, but it was mostly Iron Fist I recognised him from. Dang, I can't believe the Master actually suckered me in again, he hasn't managed that since he was Yana, I was rooting for him! But I love how ridiculously elaborate his plan here seems to be, since ridiculously elaborate plans are such an old school staple of the Master. I can't wait for the inevitable double cross that he will need the Doctor to help him out of.

[benteen]

Really enjoyed this episode.  Very well done and a real homage to the Third Doctor-era.  This episode being dedicated to Terrance Dicks (a great touch) the man who created created The Master and it had many of its trademarks.  Earth-based espionage involving The Master working with an alien species, etc.

I was spoiled about The Master's appearance shortly before I saw the episode but it was still an awesome reveal.  Sacha Dhawan was great in the role, first as the MI6 agent and then the reveal.  I liked Michelle Gomez but was never really a fan of the Missy incarnation.  Nice touch with the tissue shrinking weapon too.  I'm very interested to see how this resolves itself.

Some great action scenes.

Sorry to see Stephen Fry go so quickly.  The guest cast was terrific.

Yeah, Ryan loudly discussing their plans with Yaz was dumb.  

I appreciated the show remembering that Yaz was a police officer.

I like all three of the companions.  If I had a problem with them, it's that the Doctor only seems to address them as a collective unit instead of as individuals.  I'd really like to see more one-on-one interaction between The Doctor and the team.

Jodie's Doctor continues to act unsure of herself.  I like Jodie's Doctor though but feel she hasn't broken out quite yet.

Very much looking forward to Part 2.

[Affogato]

It might have been interesting if The Master was one of the companions. 
 

i liked the Doctor with the TARDIS jacked up. I liked engineer Doctor. i wish it showed up more in the storylines. 

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

It might have been interesting if The Master was one of the companions. 
 

i liked the Doctor with the TARDIS jacked up. I liked engineer Doctor. i wish it showed up more in the storylines. 

That would have been interesting. I do think the only one out of the three with the chops to be the Master would be Graham. 

[benteen]

I'm glad Graham is Graham but I have to admit that Graham being revealed as The Master would have been AMAZING.  It would have been interesting too coming right after the death of Missy and 13's regeneration around the same time.

[libgirl2]

34 minutes ago, benteen said:

I'm glad Graham is Graham but I have to admit that Graham being revealed as The Master would have been AMAZING.  It would have been interesting too coming right after the death of Missy and 13's regeneration around the same time.

it would have REALLY surprised me! 

[DanaK]

There were several comments on social media that Sacha got cleverly edited out of the trailers, at least physically. He was heard though, at least once, where you hear someone asking ‘What have you brought here Doctor?’. A lot of people, including me, thought it was Graham who said that

[DavidJSnyder]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

It might have been interesting if The Master was one of the companions. 

My thought was they could gave brought back someone like Kate Stewart who we've actually seen before.  (Not that I want the Brigadier's daughter to die.  But if the real one was trapped in the other dimension or something.)

But I also like the Master being a person of color now.

[Joe Hellandback]

21 hours ago, John Potts said:

Meglos, I think? I know he cloned himself and went inside his body to cure himself.

Evidently, Thirteen (JW) is more relaxed about that than Seven (CB) - "A dock is a place for mooring ships!" (can't name the episode, but it was said to Peri, IIRC).

Correct, good call. Although when I thought about it a little deeper I remember the original Romana too which was before even that. 

21 hours ago, futurechemist said:

After all the development Missy got about standing with the Doctor, I'll be disappointed if it just gets forgotten in favor of another manic evil Master. I won't mind as much if this Master is pre-Missy but it will still feel like a wasted opportunity.  Much like bringing Stephen Fry on for just 1 scene.

I do like the diversity the companions bring - age, gender, ethnicity. I just wish they weren't all from modern Britain. Other than River and Jack, has there been a companion in the modern Who era from the past, future, or not from Earth?

 

ETA I forgot Nardole. But Nardole, Jack, and River were all secondary companions. All primary companions have been from present day Britain.

I always figured they gave Nardole a bigger role because Bill Potts was so weak?

[Affogato]

54 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Correct, good call. Although when I thought about it a little deeper I remember the original Romana too which was before even that. 

I always figured they gave Nardole a bigger role because Bill Potts was so weak?

Oddly I like(d) Bill Potts. Strong perspective. Awareness of history and its effect on the present. Asked observant questions. Developed actual respect for the Doctor based on shared experiences. Also realistic human. Also not in love. 
 

what am I missing?

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Oddly I like(d) Bill Potts. Strong perspective. Awareness of history and its effect on the present. Asked observant questions. Developed actual respect for the Doctor based on shared experiences. Also realistic human. Also not in love. 
 

what am I missing?

I liked her too. I was tired of Clara (she never quite got over the Doctor regenerating and not being her "boyfriend") and it was refreshing to see a companion who was not in love with him. She was his friend, she respected him and didn't come in with any big back story aka Impossible Girl. I know there was a big deal made over the fact that she was a lesbian, but it just happened to be part of her character. She wasn't "the lesbian" of the season to be politically correct. She just fancied women. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by libgirl2

[benteen]

I liked Bill a lot.  I met Pearl Mackie once at a Comic-Con.  Very nice woman. 

Her resume wasn't very large at the time so it's possible that Matt Lucas was brought on as he is a more experienced actor.  I liked getting that second companion who didn't have a history with the other (in this case primary) companion.  I think that dynamic had been missing from Doctor Who for a long time. 

I don't mind a crowded Tardis.  I just want The Doctor to have more one-on-one scenes with Graham, Yaz and Ryan.

Edited January 3, 2020 by benteen

[Eulipian 5k]

The place Yaz and the Doctor got transported to reminds me A LOT of "The Sunken Place' from Get Out, where people were sent while their bodies were stolen; (Jordan Peele can sue!).

Was the shrunken man in the matchbox the body of the original, human "O"? Or was O always the Master in disguise?

[Llywela]

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Was the shrunken man in the matchbox the body of the original, human "O"? Or was O always the Master in disguise?

The Master said it was the real O in the box, hijacked on his way to work, and murdered so his identity could be stolen 

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The place Yaz and the Doctor got transported to reminds me A LOT of "The Sunken Place' from Get Out, where people were sent while their bodies were stolen; (Jordan Peele can sue!).

Was the shrunken man in the matchbox the body of the original, human "O"? Or was O always the Master in disguise?

I hought of narnia, the wood between the worlds. Also wondered if tardis roots. 

[DanaK]

Spyfall got an Appreciation Index (AI) of 82 (Dracula Part 1 got 83). Resolution, the last New Year's Day episode (though a special) got 80. So looking good so far

Do you all think the BBC made it clear that New Year's Day was the start of Series 12 and not just a special? There does seem to have been some confusion from at least some people on social media and people mentioning friends/family perhaps being confused. I felt BBC America was fairly clear, but I totally was aware of what was going on. I do feel it would have helped if the BBC had clearly labeled the promos to say Series 12 and not just Doctor Who coming on New Year's Day (I thought the 2 actual trailers were pretty clear)

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

The Master said it was the real O in the box, hijacked on his way to work, and murdered so his identity could be stolen 

I haven't only seen sporadic episodes of Original Who and I didn't know about the tissue compressor. If the original O is dead, why keep the 'body' in a matchbox? Just for kicks?

[taanja]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Oddly I like(d) Bill Potts. Strong perspective. Awareness of history and its effect on the present. Asked observant questions. Developed actual respect for the Doctor based on shared experiences. Also realistic human. Also not in love. 
 

what am I missing?

Completely one dimensional and boring?

[Eulipian 5k]

Simms' Master showed up with the Tocclifant (???sp), Missy showed up with the Cybermen, now this new one showed up allied with the extra-dimensional spies. Why does the Master always need some other alien army when he/she appears?

[Affogato]

26 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Simms' Master showed up with the Tocclifant (???sp), Missy showed up with the Cybermen, now this new one showed up allied with the extra-dimensional spies. Why does the Master always need some other alien army when he/she appears?

Just a preferred accessory. 

[DanaK]

Tweet of the Fam and the Master apparently from Sacha’s Twitter account

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by DanaK

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I haven't only seen sporadic episodes of Original Who and I didn't know about the tissue compressor. If the original O is dead, why keep the 'body' in a matchbox? Just for kicks?

He said in the episode that he kept it in case he needed another tissue sample, although he's never needed such a thing to maintain a form before. But then, we don't know if this was a regular regeneration or not. He never used to keep the shrunken bodies of people he killed with the TCE (Tissue Compression Eliminator) before. I'd say he did it just for kicks, yes, in anticipation of one day being able to use it to horrify the Doctor.

Well, that's the Watsonian explanation. The Doylist explanation is that the writers just wanted to show off that they know shrunken corpses were once traditionally associated with the Master!

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Simms' Master showed up with the Tocclifant (???sp), Missy showed up with the Cybermen, now this new one showed up allied with the extra-dimensional spies. Why does the Master always need some other alien army when he/she appears?

It's a grand tradition of the Master, has been since the character was first introduced, way back in 1971. The Master traditionally loves to form alliances with hostile alien races, so he can use them to do his dirty work for him. And traditionally, they always turn on him in the end, so that he has to rely on the Doctor to get him out of the corner he's backed himself into. It is how the character has always operated.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Llywela