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S10.E04: Silence the Whisperers

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Airdate 2019.10.27

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Still-paranoid Alexandrians get riled up over the Whisperers and take their fear out on Negan. At Hilltop, the group deals with an unexpected safety issue.

Mod Note:  This thread is for discussion of the episode only.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, discussion of it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings.   We have separate threads for discussing spoilers or the comics.  

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I had to miss the last five minutes of the show - the last thing I saw was Gabe looking aghast at the cell. I take it Negan took off? With Lydia? What was the paper Carol was holding as she stood way, way up on that balcony. Is she getting suicidal, too? Why in God's name is Judith going on a (I think) rescue mission? There's a Whisperer hanging out in the shed? And what's going on at Oceanside?

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Just now, maystone said:

. I take it Negan took off? With Lydia? What was the paper Carol was holding as she stood way, way up on that balcony. Is she getting suicidal, too? Why in God's name is Judith going on a (I think) rescue mission? There's a Whisperer hanging out in the shed? And what's going on at Oceanside?

 Negan took off, but not with Lydia. We don't know who let him out, although Lydia at first said she did it.

Negan: "She was asshole beating on a kid."

Yes, Negan, no assholes should beating on young girls. Assholes raping them, on the other hand... Daryl needs to be specific when warning Lydia to stay away from him.

I have no idea why Michonne wants to take Judith on that mission.

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If they want to redeem Negan they need to stop allowing him to wax poetic and judge.

As for the 3 idiots who attacked Lydia - living with Saviors and Negan but they beat up a kid. I'm with Negan on this one but someone else should have delivered the speech. 

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They really have to twist and turn to get us to side with Negan, dont they? The lengths they are going to justify this guys continued existence are un-fucking believable. That being said, I do get why Lydia feels comfortable with him. He probably reminds her of a chatty version of her mom. 

So this weekend, I was hosting a Halloween party, and one of my friends came dressed up as Negan, complete with baseball bat and everything. He even came in with the "Which one of you assholes is in charge?" line. I told him he looked so good, I already wanted to tell him to shut up. 

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I enjoyed this episode. I had plenty of solid acting.

My view of Negan is that I found no validity to the imprisonment. Rick and Morgan slaughtered a bunch of Saviors who were willing to help them, yet Negan is kept alive just to show him an alternative lifestyle. Bogus. He should have been killed a long time ago. I think the show has also claimed they kept him alive to show how civil they were. Clubbing him would be uncivil. A single bullet to the brain would be just and civil.

However he's still on the show, so they need to do something with him. And I've enjoyed his latest scenes. Fine acting with minimal cartoonish characterization. I don't see it as a redemption of Negan. That's not possible with this group of survivors. He can never have the rights and freedoms of others, and they have to use him at their own peril.

Anyway, it looks like we'll get more answers about this next week.

I'm a bit tired of Siddiq. By what he said at the council, I guess he's not a Manchurian candidate, but he's so unhinged, he's as dangerous as someone with a walker bite who won't confide in anybody.

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As it often happens on this show, I don't recognize the three folks who attacked Lydia. It seems they knew Henry, but I'm drawing a complete blank

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Margo, the woman Negan accidentally killed, and the other adult guy were members of the Highwaymen, whose leader Ozzy ended up on one of the pikes.  We were apparently supposed to get all of this from them demanding the leadership do something at the Alexandria council meeting last episode.  Or, you know, the WD wiki, which is where I learn most of this.

The teen boy, Gage, was one of the Hilltop teens who got Henry drunk and stupid last season.  The other two teenagers from that escapade also ended up on the pikes.  Thank you again, wiki.

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12 hours ago, Boofish said:

As for the 3 idiots who attacked Lydia - living with Saviors and Negan but they beat up a kid. I'm with Negan on this one but someone else should have delivered the speech. 

Who?   There isn't anyone among them who has clean hands.  They all have  varying degrees of horribleness in their not too distant pasts.

When it comes to bullying, Negan gave Lydia great advice.  Dumb ass Daryl on the other hand, gave the same advice my parents gave me.  Avoid the bullies stay away from them, ignore them.   Sure, and watch Lydia's world shrink into nothing.  Totally marginalized, a pariah with no friends.  Then wonder why she becomes socially awkward.  Yeah, Daryl.  Just say it.  You don't want to get involved, because you don't want to end up on the outside looking in like Lydia.   You don't want to deal with the blow back.  Daryl, since you brought Lydia into this mess in the first place, why don't you own it and take Lydia off the hook?  Nah, that would show true leadership.  Something Daryl, that you just don't have.  

Nagen may be a bastard, but he cares more about Lydia than you ever could.  Just like he saved Judith.

No Michonne.  Set Judith straight.  Tell her the Whisperers aren't bullies, they are murderers, just like you Michonne.

The show started to build up relationships.  Good job.  Now don't blow it.  Continue building up the relationships.  That way, when there are losses, and there will be losses, the audience will get more emotional about it, because the surviving characters will get emotional about it.

The King and Michonne would make an awesome couple.

Edited by icemiser69
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Wow. Eight comments. I guess this episode made a real impact.

21 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Nagen may be a bastard, but he cares more about Lydia than you ever could. 

Does he? Call me cynical, but we've seen how he shows his caring and his regard for the feelings for young women.

I didn't get a whole lot from this episode since so much of it was in near-total darkness.

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13 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Does he? Call me cynical, but we've seen how he shows his caring and his regard for the feelings for young women.

Negan was there for Lydia when Daryl was not.  Daryl knows Lydia is having issues, and yet he isn't around when she needed him. 

Earlier in the episode, Aaron saw that Lydia was having problems and he didn't get involved either.

Michonne wanted to make sure Lydia is safe, because her being safe helped protect the Michonnians from the Whisperers.   I am not sure how much Michonne really cares about Lydia.

Edited by icemiser69
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Honestly, I have no idea why anyone cares about Lydia. I know everyone will have an opinion, but I just feel like this is another example of where this show has let its fanbase down. 

People LOVE Daryl. People hate Negan. Michonne has her supporters (as do nearly every other character. At least, those that we know more about them than just their name. I still know next to nothing about Magna and her crew.)

What seems to be lacking is any real motivation underlying these people's concerns, needs, wants. Yes, there is the base need for security. But if that's the big concern, and it probably should be, then toss Lydia over the wall and back to her mother. Of course, then you have to hope that Alpha moves on as she's implied she would,

I know (I think I know) that Daryl was abused by his father. Okay, troubled childhood. But Lydia is why Henry is dead. That doesn't seem to have been acknowledge by Daryl (or Michonne, or Carol, or fill-in-the-blank). And what does she bring to the table to warrant such exposure to the overall group. If one innocent member of Alex. or Hilltop dies protecting Lydia, isn't that one too many?

Any why is Negan acting the way he is? Is it because he's good samaritan? If you said yes, I'd have to say, "Really?" Perhaps Lydia is nothing more than a pawn for TPTB to generate some tension between the two "big dicks," aka Daryl and Negan.

The problem, for me, is that TPTB have painted themselves into a corner with Negan. Nearly everyone hates him. The only way out for his character is if he dies making some epic rescue. Even then certain people won't "forgive" him, but it'll be better than anything else. (The other real problem is that he is, arguably, the best actor on the series.)

What I found interesting is that the brief scene between Daryl and Negan was very, very good. I attribute that to the acting NOT the writing, because the subject was Lydia. Yet, when I pull back to think about it — What was the point of that scene?

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To be fair, Lydia was what messed everything up for the communities. And they didn't want her, she was hoisted upon them. Thanks to stupid twit, Henry. I would have trouble feeling bad for her too. And maybe there is still some trust issues as her mother is a murderous nutso.

Just read above post (by Sam)^ and I agree. WHo cares about Lydia?!?!?!  Who cares about Magna and her group? Not me. And Negan needs to die saving our group somehow. That is it. Nothing else will do.

Edited by Lamima
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8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

They really have to twist and turn to get us to side with Negan, dont they? The lengths they are going to justify this guys continued existence are un-fucking believable. That being said, I do get why Lydia feels comfortable with him. He probably reminds her of a chatty version of her mom. 

So this weekend, I was hosting a Halloween party, and one of my friends came dressed up as Negan, complete with baseball bat and everything. He even came in with the "Which one of you assholes is in charge?" line. I told him he looked so good, I already wanted to tell him to shut up. 

For my grandsons first Halloween I dressed him as Negan. Complete with the bat and jaunty burgundy scarf - what made it so epic is that at the time he was only 3 months old. It was epic. This year me and the mister were Rick and Michonne.

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If the Alexandrians have a problem with Lydia being there, then they need to take it up with the settlement leaders (Michonne), as well as Daryl and Carol.   The adults are the reason that Lydia is still around.  Those same individuals are the reason that Negan is still alive.

Going after Lydia is nothing more than going after low hanging fruit.  Not that difficult for a bunch of town folks to go after someone who doesn't have anyone around her on a consistent basis to protect her or have her back.  The one person that was around to help her out was Negan, and he escaped.  If the town folks had any guts, they would talk to the adults and not take it out on Lydia.   They don't do that, because they are a bunch of cowards.

Edited by icemiser69
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Wow, musical montages at the beginning and end of the episode?

They really have run out of things to say.

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Lydia doesn't deserve any sympathy or for anyone to have her back. Everything that is happenning is her and her psyco mother's fault. She certainly didn't help herself with butchering that squirrel and silencing the table. I don't know why they are keeping her around. They should have her and Neagan leave, kill Aplha, and ride off Thelma & Louise style.

I really, really hate the Negan plot right now. Is everyone just supposed to forget what an evil a%%hole he is? What about all the people he has killed, burned, raped, tortured,stolen from or kidnapped, ? They don't matter? Sitting in a cell for 6 years doesn't change evil.

Edited by BravoAddict72
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The parts of this episode that worked, like Michonne and Ezekiel sharing their grief and sense of being lost, were really lovely.  The actors both did nice work in showing that sense of weariness of having to continually pick up and keep trudging forward in this ZA only to get knocked down and have to do it again.  It would be really nice if the show recognized why it works, that these are two characters it's taken time for us to know and want to see be okay, and apply that to other people on the canvas instead of introducing 5,000 more characters only to toss them into random scenes or kill them off an episode or two later and expect us to know or care anything about them.

Again, the show puts me in the weird position of not hating Negan's scenes, and I don't like that I can totally see the show working overtime to manipulate me into feeling that.  He was making all the sense in his point with Daryl that they really screwed the pooch in keeping him locked up all these years only to let him out now in some kind of half measures work release and then snatching that limited freedom and interaction with the community away again when he does something they don't like rather than trying to figure out what long term integration into the community even looks like for them.  If they wanted to kill him, they should have done it years ago and been done with it.  Whatever he does now is on them for keeping him around.  Daryl was pretty ineffective first in his terrible advice to Lydia to just ignore the people harassing her, (Because anyone who's ever been in middle school already knows how well that works.) but also not doing anything about it as someone supposedly in a position of authority.  Daryl not wrongly still wants Negan dead but he's also not willing to take matters into his own hands or do the mental work to figure out what the alternative is then.  FPP is even worse in his dithering around, obviously not wanting to further rile people if he votes to let Negan live and then making a beeline to his cell as if he was seriously planning on asking Negan's advice on the matter.  Meanwhile, Aaron is apparently too busy trying to find more Kitchen Aid attachments for his arm to remember that Negan did in fact come through for him in a fairly big way recently and even pretend there's any moral quandary about his own decision-making process.

The point with Lydia is that they did take her in.  We can argue that the various leaders probably should have been more discerning and thought it through more, but they did.  Just as they did everyone else.  And Michonne has a valid point that Lydia is a walking talking insurance policy that Awful may harass them but probably won't throw full force at them as long as Lydia is there and safe after her tortured "mother to mother" bit of speechifying last week.

I love Ezekiel, but did he as Hilltop's latest leader of the month gallivant off the morning after the ginormous tree fall and stay gone all day to get deep in his feelings?  And did the walkers apparently wait until the following night to wander in?  The daylight/nighttime timing of that made no sense.

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Aaron should have said something when he observed the 3 harassing Lydia.  If he's supposed to be showing all these leadership qualities, he's failing imo.  I blame the writers because he's now sporting a whole different personality, so I guess it doesn't matter who he is anyway.  I skipped last season so I really don't know who half of these people are and don't much care.  I do like Daryl talking more instead of grunting and would enjoy a Zeke-Michonne relationship.  I also enjoyed Michonne smiling with pride as Judith was killing walkers.  I'm tired of Carol and I agree with those who say that JDM is a good actor.  The writers do want us to forget his past and he will likely be redeemed by some group saving action.  I am curious about who let him out and what exactly Saddiq is PTSDing about.  Must all action scenes be in the dark?

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2 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

But Lydia is why Henry is dead.

At least she did something positive.

13 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

If he's supposed to be showing all these leadership qualities, he's failing imo.

Aaron has no leadership qualities whatsoever, IMO. He runs on impulse and emotion. Daryl is not a leader either. RickyG may have had many, many faults but he could lead people and bend them to his will, for good or bad.

16 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I love Ezekiel, but did he as Hilltop's latest leader of the month gallivant off the morning after the ginormous tree fall and stay gone all day to get deep in his feelings? 

And where did those horses go, running off by themselves? Do these people think horses grow on trees that you can just let them take off - with a zillion walkers around and we know horses can't kick, buck, rear or run away from them - so you can have a moment to commune with your feelings? "Oh, just let them go. They'll be fine."

24 minutes ago, BravoAddict72 said:

What about all the people he has killed, burned, raped, tortured,stolen from or kidnapped, ? They don't matter? Sitting in a cell for 6 years doesn't change evil.

Yep. My view on that has not changed.

So, yeah - like, where did Siddiq get those ice cubes in which to give himself some hydrotherapy?

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Are the solar panels Alexandria had when our gang first showed up still functional after all the zombie hordes, Wolves, and Saviors marched and burned their way through? I know it was established in the first seasons of their time there that they had electricity and running water as a result of those alternative energy sources.

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5 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I know it was established in the first seasons of their time there that they had electricity and running water as a result of those alternative energy sources.

Thanks. I recall the running water, mostly because of the way Negan enjoyed looking at it as he swaggered around Alexandria pillaging and bullying, but not the electricity. They must have it since they they're baking bread.

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I miss Deana and her dinner parties.

If she were still alive I can see her inviting Alpha to a little get-together, with canapés. And she would have tried to set up one of her preppy sons with Lydia.

Problem solved.

See: People need to think outside the box!

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I have the solution on the Lydia/Negan problem... Escort them to TX.  I understand there are people out there that"help others" and make beer.  Also Negan can see his female "mini me" wannabe.

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Lydia or no Lydia,  Alpha and Beta are still bat shit crazy and they need to be put down.

I want full redemption for Negan because an episode without JDM is miserable.  They messed him up when he was a villain. 

Letting him to be the dangerous guy that responded to Rick's Violence by letting Lucille do the job and racketting villages around would have been just enough.  Taking care of traitors violently and pissing off Daryl who was the enemy would have been OK too.

They should have left the harem, doctor, innocent killing and the rest of it out of the story if they knew they wanted to reedeem him.  Even the harem, if it would have been on a volontary base (Wanna good life? Cum to my place) it would have been ok.

Instead of making him act like he did (A talking clown) they should have let him act like he does now.

But I don't care,  I forget this bullshit like it never happened because JDM is the best actor of the bunch, I really don't care about the others. 

This week's episode was the best for me this season, put out Negan and to me it would have been a "The Young and the Restless" kind of dull thing.

Edited by heisenberg
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Lydia doesn't deserve any sympathy or for anyone to have her back. Everything that is happenning is her and her psyco mother's fault. 

She's a child; it's all her "psyco mother's fault."

Edited by TattleTeeny
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2 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

They should have left the harem, doctor, innocent killing and the rest of it out of the story if they knew they wanted to reedeem him.

I'm pretty sure those are Kirkman's favorite parts, especially the sex slave harem. They should also have left out the part where Carl was having a guest tour of the Sanctuary and Negan says he's pissed that he won't have time to "screw any of my wives today," but then adds with a big smile, "Well, maybe one." Showing off that way to a kid was squicky in the extreme. Ugh.

Maybe he's hoping to recruit Lydia. He can't coerce or blackmail her, so he can try the silver-tongued brainwashing, which has already made an impact on her.

But yes, JDM is far and away the best actor here. Too bad they made him so irredeemable, in my eyes anyway, and trying to highlight his non-existent good qualities is kind of pathetic.

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3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'm pretty sure those are Kirkman's favorite parts, especially the sex slave harem. They should also have left out the part where Carl was having a guest tour of the Sanctuary and Negan says he's pissed that he won't have time to "screw any of my wives today," but then adds with a big smile, "Well, maybe one." Showing off that way to a kid was squicky in the extreme. Ugh.

Maybe he's hoping to recruit Lydia. He can't coerce or blackmail her, so he can try the silver-tongued brainwashing, which has already made an impact on her.

But yes, JDM is far and away the best actor here. Too bad they made him so irredeemable, in my eyes anyway, and trying to highlight his non-existent good qualities is kind of pathetic.

I added that to my message while you wrote yours: "Even the harem, if it would have been on a volontary base (Wanna good life? Cum to my place) it would have been ok."

I guess we are on the same page.

Edited by heisenberg
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2 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

"Even the harem, if it would have been on a volontary base (Wanna good life? Cum to my place) it would have been ok."

I respectfully disagree. He would still be in the position of power over them so they would never really be doing it of total free will. "Wanna eat decent food? Have clean clothes? Live in semi-human conditions? Not have to work feeding the furnaces (or other nasty job)? Easy-peasy. Spread 'em and it's all yours, as long as you don't displease me."

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3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I love Ezekiel, but did he as Hilltop's latest leader of the month gallivant off the morning after the ginormous tree fall and stay gone all day to get deep in his feelings?  And did the walkers apparently wait until the following night to wander in?  The daylight/nighttime timing of that made no sense.

Ezekiel has proven to be nothing more than a "paper tiger" ever since his pixel pal Shiva was eaten by walkers.  I still miss Shiva.

When that tree came down at Hilltop, Ezekiel temporarily froze.  That can't be a good sign.  If he is that unsure as a leader, he needs to be replaced.

Why in the world would they have tall trees that close to Hilltop?   Any enemy can climb a tree and spy on them or shoot down at them.

Edited by icemiser69
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I never thought that much of Ezzekiel as a leader.  The only reason he was one is because the kingdom/la la land that he created enabled them to forget the horrors they endured, and live in a fake world. 

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2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

She's a child; it's all her "psyco mother's fault."

It was Lydia, not her mother, who didn't tell anyone her mother was at the fair until it was too late. All she had to do was stand up and say it was her mother. Big Jerry was there in the room. He would have taken care of her. Or Carol. 

Lydia was the one skinning the animal at the table. Not her mother. She is not innocent. I think she is crafty and knows exactly what she is doing.

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20 minutes ago, BravoAddict72 said:

It was Lydia, not her mother, who didn't tell anyone her mother was at the fair until it was too late. All she had to do was stand up and say it was her mother. Big Jerry was there in the room. He would have taken care of her. Or Carol. 

Lydia was the one skinning the animal at the table. Not her mother. She is not innocent. I think she is crafty and knows exactly what she is doing.

Really?  I’ve always considered Lydia about as clueless as a syphilitic rock - but hey, maybe that’s just me.

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It was Lydia, not her mother, who didn't tell anyone her mother was at the fair until it was too late. All she had to do was stand up and say it was her mother. Big Jerry was there in the room. He would have taken care of her. Or Carol. 

Lydia was the one skinning the animal at the table. Not her mother. She is not innocent. I think she is crafty and knows exactly what she is doing.

Maybe. But my point remains: CHILD. And an abused one at that. God forbid she not know how exactly to do the "right" or "obvious" thing--or that she's afraid to. 

And I'll just assume that, for a child who can't even trust her own mom to "take care of her," it's probably not so easy to just assume that the enemies of said mom would do so.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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I don't care about Lydia one way or the other, but if anyone has reason to be totally and completely mentally fucked up, it's her. Her earliest memories are messed up and include her Momma suffocating her with a cleaner's bag and it just went downhill from there with nothing but horror and violence. I hold her blameless.

The girl is a mess, with good reason, and perfect prey for someone like Negan because I'm sure she'll gravitate to anyone who seems the least bit interested in her welfare or shows the slightest kindness to her

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

If he is that unsure as a leader, he needs to be replaced.

He was only a leader when he crowned himself King, had his fake throne on his fake stage and his tiger to give him swagger, and later, his "Queen". All those props made him strong. Without them, well, we've seen what happened.

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Sorry to psycho-post, but while I'm thinking of it (things go out my mind swiftly) what's with all these women and their super-long, stringy hair? Why is this a fashion choice in a time where there is not unlimited amounts of hot water or shampoo, when you may have to run at any moment due to fire, fallen trees, zombie hordes or evil villains? "Oh, sorry! Can't help or run right now. Gotta do a comb-out on my very long, wet hair. These knots are really stubborn and I don't want any split ends."

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10 hours ago, SamBeckett said:

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone cares about Lydia. I know everyone will have an opinion, but I just feel like this is another example of where this show has let its fanbase down. 

People LOVE Daryl. People hate Negan. Michonne has her supporters (as do nearly every other character. At least, those that we know more about them than just their name. I still know next to nothing about Magna and her crew.)

What seems to be lacking is any real motivation underlying these people's concerns, needs, wants. Yes, there is the base need for security. But if that's the big concern, and it probably should be, then toss Lydia over the wall and back to her mother. Of course, then you have to hope that Alpha moves on as she's implied she would,

I know (I think I know) that Daryl was abused by his father. Okay, troubled childhood. But Lydia is why Henry is dead. That doesn't seem to have been acknowledge by Daryl (or Michonne, or Carol, or fill-in-the-blank). And what does she bring to the table to warrant such exposure to the overall group. If one innocent member of Alex. or Hilltop dies protecting Lydia, isn't that one too many?

Any why is Negan acting the way he is? Is it because he's good samaritan? If you said yes, I'd have to say, "Really?" Perhaps Lydia is nothing more than a pawn for TPTB to generate some tension between the two "big dicks," aka Daryl and Negan.

The problem, for me, is that TPTB have painted themselves into a corner with Negan. Nearly everyone hates him. The only way out for his character is if he dies making some epic rescue. Even then certain people won't "forgive" him, but it'll be better than anything else. (The other real problem is that he is, arguably, the best actor on the series.)

What I found interesting is that the brief scene between Daryl and Negan was very, very good. I attribute that to the acting NOT the writing, because the subject was Lydia. Yet, when I pull back to think about it — What was the point of that scene?

I agree 100%.  Lydia doesn't bring a fucking thing to the table except teenage angst and attitude and I had more than enough of that with the late, unlamented Henry.  Toss her ass over the wall and throw Negan in for good measure.  Let's see how he much of a tough guy he is with Beta.

I enjoyed a lot of this episode (except for the Negan/Lydia stuff).  I'm ride-or-die Michonne so I was happy to see her get even a little bit of action, even if she is still forced to play Official Widow for a man who isn't worth 6 days, much less 6 years. 

Danai and Khary were so good in their scene together and I really hope we get to see more, even if it isn't romance.  Michonne spends way too much time talking to Judith and convincing the other folks that they need to save their own fucking lives, she deserves a little time to talk about how SHE feels.

Edited by mightysparrow

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Well, whatever--Lydia aside, did anyone else wonder why and how the Hilltop horde dispersed? A whole lot of sturm und drang and then they just...wandered away?

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Regarding the Lydia hate:  They did explain that she is keeping them safe because they don't think the Whisperers will attack them because Alpha (secretly) wants to know that her daughter is safe.

Negan's done some terrible things, but I still find the character interesting.  Almost everyone in the ZA has done terrible things.  Negan came from a twisted place, but his motivation was at least partly to keep people safe by running a dictatorship.  That still makes him a jackass, but there is some good in there.  He doesn't do bad things just to do bad things, he does them because he thinks they're for the greater good, even if he's very mistaken.

I think he came to see that Rick's way was better.  He probably didn't think being that close to being civilized was possible.  I do believe he sincerely cares about Judith, Lydia, and some of the others.  He didn't take advantage of the situation with Aaron.  I can understand why people wouldn't like him, but I'm not going to spend my time hating on him either.  I think the character is interesting, so I'm willing to see where it goes.

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17 hours ago, BravoAddict72 said:

Lydia was the one skinning the animal at the table. Not her mother. She is not innocent. I think she is crafty and knows exactly what she is doing.

Lydia was trying to put a scare into those people that were making her life hell.  I am not happy that she killed a squirrel to do it.  I hate having animals killed on this series.  I just don't like it.  Still, Lydia wouldn't be in the position of having to try and protect herself by sending a message that she wasn't going to allow herself to be tormented, if Daryl had gotten more involved.  Daryl is acting more like an absentee parent than anything else.  Nagen gave Lydia great advice.

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18 hours ago, BravoAddict72 said:

It was Lydia, not her mother, who didn't tell anyone her mother was at the fair until it was too late. All she had to do was stand up and say it was her mother. Big Jerry was there in the room. He would have taken care of her. Or Carol.

Lydia is scared of her mother.   She probably thinks that the protagonists are far too weak to take on the Whisperers.  She is probably right.   The protagonists have gone soft.

Big Jerry would have been killed.  I like Jerry, but they really haven't done much with him.  I am surprised he is still alive.

Carol would have stood a better chance of killing Alpha.  Carol is a horrible human being that should have been killed off long ago.   She makes everything all about her.  Her wants, her needs.   Would she really be all in on killing the Whisperers if Henry hadn't been piked?  I don't think so.

Carol and Aaron are opposite sides of the same coin.  They both have blinders on. 

Carol is all in on killing the Whisperers and protecting Lydia no matter the cost in human life.  Aaron has no interest in protecting Lydia, even though Lydia isn't the one responsible for piking ten people, Alpha is.   Aaron had an opportunity to help Lydia out in this episode and he couldn't be bothered.  He just doesn't give a damn about Lydia.  He is taking his hatred for Alpha out on Lydia.

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2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

  Would she really be all in on killing the Whisperers if Henry hadn't been piked?  I don't think so.

Same with Michonne. Do you think Negan would be alive, never mind being protected and out in the community, if he had tortured and murdered Rick? Ha! Or Carl. Both of them - Carol and Michonne - seem to feel that if what happened didn't directly impact them or theirs, it's no big deal.

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14 hours ago, rmontro said:

  He doesn't do bad things just to do bad things, he does them because he thinks they're for the greater good, even if he's very mistaken.

I don't see how throwing a doctor into a fire, or screwing Dwight's wife and rubbing Dwight's nose in it, or assaulting a crying young girl is for anyone's good, except his because he hugely enjoyed doing that stuff.

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23 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I respectfully disagree. He would still be in the position of power over them so they would never really be doing it of total free will. "Wanna eat decent food? Have clean clothes? Live in semi-human conditions? Not have to work feeding the furnaces (or other nasty job)? Easy-peasy. Spread 'em and it's all yours, as long as you don't displease me."

I am not saying it is a good thing, I am saying it would be a script closer to what reality and human behavior is.

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18 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

He was only a leader when he crowned himself King, had his fake throne on his fake stage and his tiger to give him swagger, and later, his "Queen". All those props made him strong. Without them, well, we've seen what happened.

And he always said so.  I respect that.  I prefer a leader who can say "I'm off limits" than one who claims being without flaws.

18 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Sorry to psycho-post, but while I'm thinking of it (things go out my mind swiftly) what's with all these women and their super-long, stringy hair? Why is this a fashion choice in a time where there is not unlimited amounts of hot water or shampoo, when you may have to run at any moment due to fire, fallen trees, zombie hordes or evil villains? "Oh, sorry! Can't help or run right now. Gotta do a comb-out on my very long, wet hair. These knots are really stubborn and I don't want any split ends."

Given your comment, Daryl could become a fashion icon.🙂

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Why is Aaron all bitter now? Is it over Eric or Jesus? I can't tell but I miss the old Aaron.

So along with extended life batteries there's ice in the Zombie Apocolypse? *smh*

I find it funny/odd when people are being pulled about in a hacked off minivan by horses. It looks so unnatural yet its a good idea.

So Judith is now helping Michonne see things from a different perspective? I...don't get it. The Sheriff's hat looks too new by the way. Should be way more tattered.

I love JDM, he makes Negan watchable with his innate charisma but I will never buy the redemption arc with Glenn's bashed in head in my head.

Overall though, I liked this ep. It was a good mix of different people and not just any one person's misery.

Although I had no idea what was happening at Hilltop. A tree crashed into the fence? Is that what happened? Why don't they set up some explosives to go off at a predetermined site away from them to draw the horde away in these kinds of events?

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I love JDM, he makes Negan watchable with his innate charisma but I will never buy the redemption arc with Glenn's bashed in head in my head.

I'm not reading it as a redemption, exactly. While I dig the Negan story (and JDM), I think they should have straight-up murdered his ass in one of the many opportunities they had, even before Carl's dying wish was expressed in a letter (but part of me wants them always to do what my sweet Carl wanted!).

From their perspective, I'm seeing it more as a confusion over what the hell they do with him now that it's years after they would have been better justified in killing him; now it would just be somewhat barbaric and arbitrary (barbitrary! Though he may see what they did to his people as exactly that too...). Not that he doesn't(didn't) deserve it, but that this group doesn't seem to want to be those things. 

And on his end, I see it not as, "hey, I am good now!" as much as "this is where I am now; I may as well just roll with it because what else can I really do at this point?"

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37 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I love JDM, he makes Negan watchable with his innate charisma

His role on this show was the first time I'd even seen him (Guess I DO live under a rock) and his performance here has coloured anything else in which he might appear. I'm catching up on some old "Good Wife" eps, including his appearance  in which he has an affair with Alicia. He tells her he doesn't want to get involved, have a relationship, whatever, to which she replies she feels the same and that she just wants the sex. "I have a husband," she says. I was truly expecting him to say, "My dick is bigger than his. We both know it." I nearly had to slap myself in the face to get that out of my head. 😏

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3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

I find it funny/odd when people are being pulled about in a hacked off minivan by horses. It looks so unnatural yet its a good idea.

What happens when they have a flat tire?  I didn't see a spare in that hacked off car at all.   I didn't see a jack to jack up the hacked up car either?   Do they have an air compressor to put air in tires?

3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Why is Aaron all bitter now? Is it over Eric or Jesus? I can't tell but I miss the old Aaron.

Probably both.  Eric died as a result of Negan.   Jesus died because of Lydia's mom's group, the Whisperers.

It has to be pretty tough for Aaron to be stuck in a small community where Negan was jailed and let out to roam around until he escaped.   Also be stuck in the same place where Lydia is staying.

Still, Aaron ought to be smart enough not to blame Lydia for the actions of Alpha, and Negan saved Aaron from being walker chow last week.

That was a pretty small cornfield at Alexandria, I don't know what they were feeding with that small crop.  Perhaps livestock.

3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

So Judith is now helping Michonne see things from a different perspective? I...don't get it. The Sheriff's hat looks too new by the way. Should be way more tattered.

She is Carl part two.  Rick was influenced by Carl and now Judith has influence over Michonne. 

Those people outside of Hilltop were struggling while trying to kill walkers.  Having Judith on the inside having no problem killing walkers made those other fighters look bad.

3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Although I had no idea what was happening at Hilltop. A tree crashed into the fence? Is that what happened? Why don't they set up some explosives to go off at a predetermined site away from them to draw the horde away in these kinds of events?

I don't know if they have explosives.   If they do, they could set up trip wires all over the place which would make the Whispers embedding themselves in a herd of walkers a really bad idea.  A walker could hit a trip wire resulting in a bunch of Whispers getting killed.

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I find myself wanting to go back and rewrite seasons 2 and 3.  Just to advance some of the characters who would add a lot of depth now.  

Maybe in a decade or two, this will be remade by someone who's wanting to change 'history'.  

Do Zombies ever pee?  If so, their zippers wore out several seasons ago.

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nodorothyparker

REMINDER: This thread is for discussion of the episode only.  If you didn't see it happen onscreen, discussion of it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings.   We have separate threads for discussing spoilers or the comics. 

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