The Myth Of The Moonlighting Curse And Other Issues With Romance On Television

[Luckylyn]

I found a nice video that really captures the Jax/Alexis spark/friendship 

It’s possible to explore a pairings chemistry without will they/ won’t they games

[AntiBeeSpray]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:40 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I think Mulder and Scully is one of those cases where the partnership was better than them hooking up and it was better to have not wanted more thinking it was going to be a good thing.

Nah. It comes down to what CC wanted, period. He wanted the characters to be work partners only. To just serve the stories he wanted to be told. Frank Spotnitz mentioned that CC didn't want the characters to grow or evolve. That says a lot. And honestly, I find that kind of thing to be boring.

Edited June 7, 2019 by AntiBeeSpray

[andromeda331]

16 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Nah. It comes down to what CC wanted period. He wanted the characters to be work partners only. To just serve the stories he wanted to be told. Frank Spotnitz mentioned that CC didn't want the characters to grow or evolve. That says a lot. And honestly, I find that kind of thing to be boring.

So do I. I like watching characters grow and evolved. Watching characters never growing or evolving is usually why I quit watching. 

[AntiBeeSpray]

37 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

So do I. I like watching characters grow and evolved. Watching characters never growing or evolving is usually why I quit watching. 

I could hug this post. Exactly. When they aren't allowed to do so, it's so sad and tragic. So much potential and yet so much wasted.

[Irlandesa]

14 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

The writing on GH can be such a mess but Jax/Alexis was something they got right.  Just because there’s a spark doesn’t mean a romance has to happen.  Sometimes the flirting is more fun than the consummation.

I'm torn on this.  In some respects, when GH quickly became a dumpster fire in later years, it was good that Jax and Alexis were never more than friends because all of their interactions had the purity of friend love without any of the ugly baggage soaps started heaping on their romantic pairings.  But friends don't get as much play as lovers and that became true of them as well.

But I can't agree that it was the "right" decision for GH.  There were early indications that the couple had the potential to be big.  It's the kind of thing soaps used to milk when they got lucky enough to stumble upon it.  And it was reportedly not explored by the EP because she was older than he was.   But I'll raise a glass *meep meep* to your post anyway.

But speaking of doing it right by keeping it platonic, I've always appreciated that Benson and Stabler were only friends and professional partners throughout Chris Meloni's run on the show.  He was married and it felt right to me that it wasn't sacrificed to add even more angst to the partnership.

Even something I love more than that?  That when he quit, he quit and doens't seem to be in contact with anyone.  I don't think that gets enough play on TV.  Many times you develop deep and close bonds with people you spend a lot of time with or work with but when you move on from that job, you basically completely lose touch. The connection was more about the job than people sometimes realize when they're in it.

Now, I'm sure in the last season, they'll bring him back, divorced and explain he had to keep the distance because he was in love with Benson (isn't everyone in love with Benson?) but for now, I can at least appreciate what they've done.

[Luckylyn]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm torn on this.  In some respects, when GH quickly became a dumpster fire in later years, it was good that Jax and Alexis were never more than friends because all of their interactions had the purity of friend love without any of the ugly baggage soaps started heaping on their romantic pairings.  But friends don't get as much play as lovers and that became true of them as well.

But I can't agree that it was the "right" decision for GH.  There were early indications that the couple had the potential to be big.  It's the kind of thing soaps used to milk when they got lucky enough to stumble upon it.  And it was reportedly not explored by the EP because she was older than he was.   But I'll raise a glass *meep meep* to your post anyway.

But speaking of doing it right by keeping it platonic, I've always appreciated that Benson and Stabler were only friends and professional partners throughout Chris Meloni's run on the show.  He was married and it felt right to me that it wasn't sacrificed to add even more angst to the partnership.

Even something I love more than that?  That when he quit, he quit and doens't seem to be in contact with anyone.  I don't think that gets enough play on TV.  Many times you develop deep and close bonds with people you spend a lot of time with or work with but when you move on from that job, you basically completely lose touch. The connection was more about the job than people sometimes realize when they're in it.

Now, I'm sure in the last season, they'll bring him back, divorced and explain he had to keep the distance because he was in love with Benson (isn't everyone in love with Benson?) but for now, I can at least appreciate what they've done.

I thought Stabler was killed off the show making it impossible for his character to return.  I haven’t watched SUV in years so it’s possible I’m remembering wrong.

I had no idea the reason the writers on GH never went forward with Jax/Alexis was because the actress was older.  That really is a crap reason not to go for it.  Especially when they went with icky pairings like Sonny/Emily where the age difference was big enough that Emily was a child when Sonny was already a grown man.  At the time, I assumed Jax/Alexis didn’t happen because Ned/Alexis were popular.  I definitely loved Ned/Alexis even though I loved the Jax/Alexis flirty friendship too.  I was always sad the writers broke up Ned/Alexis because the characters were so well suited to each other and had so much chemistry.

[aradia22]

Quote

Even something I love more than that?  That when he quit, he quit and doens't seem to be in contact with anyone.  I don't think that gets enough play on TV.  Many times you develop deep and close bonds with people you spend a lot of time with or work with but when you move on from that job, you basically completely lose touch. The connection was more about the job than people sometimes realize when they're in it.

Even though I haven't shied away from proclaiming that SVU is without a doubt the worst of the L&O franchise, the idea that they wouldn't still be friends was a little sad. Happily it took me about 10 seconds of Googling to find this article. 

https://people.com/tv/law-and-order-svu-reunion-mariska-hargitay-christopher-meloni-vacation/

Anyway, I would say that characters need to grow but they should remain themselves. That's different from remaining the same. For example, one of the many problems that plagued Bones was that Booth and Brennan kept reverting back to type until (at least when I finally gave up on the show) they had devolved into over the top stereotypes. She started as a serious scientist and by the end she seemed to be on the autism spectrum and had so little grasp of how to connect with other people or read emotional cues. Which was strange because in intervening seasons her behavior hadn't been as extreme and there were also so many instances of her learning and expressing empathy. Booth had gone from an honorable but charming law enforcement officer to a guy who would rage out in the interrogation room like Stabler used to on SVU (except he never got reprimanded by the equivalent of internal affairs). And yet he would also be goofy in a way that seemed to ignore all the time we had spent seeing him do his best to be a good, honorable man. 

I can't think of many sitcoms I watched from start to finish to know if they went off the rails. I'd maybe throw out The Nanny as a show where the characters essentially remained themselves but were allowed to grow and change in their relationships. 

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Nah. It comes down to what CC wanted, period. He wanted the characters to be work partners only. To just serve the stories he wanted to be told. Frank Spotnitz mentioned that CC didn't want the characters to grow or evolve. That says a lot. And honestly, I find that kind of thing to be boring.

That must be why I was just never very invested in the X-Files, as a kid. I watched it, on and off, but never considered it appointment viewing like a lot of people did. I definitely prioritise character over story, for most of my forms of entertainment.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Now, I'm sure in the last season, they'll bring him back, divorced and explain he had to keep the distance because he was in love with Benson (isn't everyone in love with Benson?) but for now, I can at least appreciate what they've done.

I stopped watching shortly after he left. But I think Meloni returned for a guest appearance a few years ago? I hope if he returns in the finale, let it be NEXT SEASON! that he and Kathy are still married. Because Elliot and Olivia's partnership/friendship was the one thing they did right and stuck with. It's sad that once he left, we never heard from him again, because Kathy, Dickie RICHARD, Maureen, Katie and the forgotten twin of RICHARD, grew up knowing Olivia, and she was more than just Elliott's partner.

But man, how viewers insisted that they were sekritly in wuv with each other made me sick. And USA didn't help with its promos of the marathons, by touting it and making it sound like the best love affair EVAH!

3 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I thought Stabler was killed off the show making it impossible for his character to return.  I haven’t watched SUV in years so it’s possible I’m remembering wrong.

Nope. He left after he killed a teenager in the squad room who had killed her father? Like that was the first time he had to shoot and ended up killing a teen? That was the lamest way for Meloni to leave, and for Elliott to quite and put in his papers.

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nope. He left after he killed a teenager in the squad room who had killed her father? Like that was the first time he had to shoot and ended up killing a teen? That was the lamest way for Meloni to leave, and for Elliott to quite and put in his papers.

Actually the teenager she shot went into the squad room and killed the guys that basically killed her mother -- and accidentally wound up shooting Sister Peg on accident.  Worst part is, she was willing to put the gun down until her mother's killer provoked her by saying he should have killed just like her mother.  She went to shoot him again, and that's why Stabler shot her.

I think that moment broke him because even though it wasn't the first time he shot anyone, it was the first person he shot that he considered innocent in order to save an actual scumbag.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

Actually the teenager she shot went into the squad room and killed the guys that basically killed her mother -- and accidentally wound up shooting Sister Peg on accident.  Worst part is, she was willing to put the gun down until her mother's killer provoked her by saying he should have killed just like her mother.  She went to shoot him again, and that's why Stabler shot her.

I think that moment broke him because even though it wasn't the first time he shot anyone, it was the first person he shot that he considered innocent in order to save an actual scumbag.

Right! Forgot about that.

I don't think that was the first time. There was the time he was chasing that one teenager, in the Pharma party case? And he was on administrative leave because he was charged with using excessive force/choke hold when the kid suddenly died. And when the ME was told the kid had a preexisting heart condition or whatever, she said, "you should have TOLD ME THAT!" because it changed what could have been the cause of death and so Elliott wasn't responsible.

Or something.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Right! Forgot about that.

I don't think that was the first time. There was the time he was chasing that one teenager, in the Pharma party case? And he was on administrative leave because he was charged with using excessive force/choke hold when the kid suddenly died. And when the ME was told the kid had a preexisting heart condition or whatever, she said, "you should have TOLD ME THAT!" because it changed what could have been the cause of death and so Elliott wasn't responsible.

Or something.

Yeah but that guy was a junkie who raped and killed his girlfriend's mom, so ergo, not an innocent victim.

[catlover79]

Honestly, I think the time for Stabler to return - even for a one-off guest spot - has passed. I think that ship has sailed. MAYBE for the series finale, whenever that will be, but I just don't know how they'd write it so it would make sense. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

Honestly, I think the time for Stabler to return - even for a one-off guest spot - has passed. I think that ship has sailed. MAYBE for the series finale, whenever that will be, but I just don't know how they'd write it so it would make sense. 

No it hasn't. This particular Franchise, is known for recurring and returning characters. Well, those they haven't killed off, at any rate. And I was wrong. I could have sworn Elliott had come back for a guest appearance after he left in 2011. But according to Chris' IMDB profile, he hasn't. Oh well.

[Bastet]

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Even though I haven't shied away from proclaiming that SVU is without a doubt the worst of the L&O franchise, the idea that they wouldn't still be friends was a little sad. Happily it took me about 10 seconds of Googling to find this article. 

https://people.com/tv/law-and-order-svu-reunion-mariska-hargitay-christopher-meloni-vacation/

I believe the poster was referring to the fact the characters did not stay in contact (other than some gift he sent her, - I'd stopped watching well before then, so I just know from mention in forums) after he left.  The actors are indeed still friends.

[catlover79]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Just because I don't think there's a plausible way to write Elliott back in after so long, doesn't mean there might be one. Of course, it all depends on whether or not Meloni would agree to do it. It would probably take Dick Wolf prying open the purse strings and getting persuasive ($$$$$). 

[supposebly]

I'm rewatching Spin City and I'm still bitter about them breaking up Ashley and Mike after the first season. They were an enjoyable couple and all of a sudden the show seemed to become about everyone's dating life.

Was it so hard to keep writing about city politics and Mike and Ahley maneuvering often being on opposite sides professionally? I guess it was.

[Annber03]

God, it's been so long since I've seen "Spin City", but I do kinda remember Mike and Ashley. That does sound annoying. Seriously, shows, if you really want to put characters together, it is okay to do that and then let them actually, y'know, stay together.

(That's one thing I've always appreciated about when they finally put Niles and Daphne together on "Frasier". They just let them be together, and work through any issues that came up afterward as a couple.)

 

[katha]

Didn't know if to put this here or in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but I guess here works since it's mostly on the relationships on the show.

Despite its problems/offensive nonsense, Lena Dunham did many interesting things in "Girls" IMO. Including capturing the myopic mindset of people in their early twenties who think they are cool and the world owes them. Because we're all the heroes/good guys in our own stories, but it might not look quite so hot from an objective point of view... And I think she captured that uncomfortable moment when realization sets in, both for the characters and the audience.

Anyway, on the relationship front: I liked the awkward messiness of it. That couples sometimes genuinely loved each other, but that didn't always make it better. Ray/Shosh was doomed, and that seemed right. It also seemed right that they managed to stay friends, since they were both mostly way less awful than anyone else LOL. Marnie's relationships matched her self-involved control freak issues.

And I liked how Hannah and Adam loved each other, but also in some ways stifled each other and used each other as security blankets when they were lost and unhappy. So it was IMO the right thing to do to end it for good, it had become too much of a fantasy/easy escape plan for them both.

I also thought that Jessa and Adam were well suited, is that an UO? I don't know if it's something for the long-term, since they are both so erratic. But the characters seemed to become more open and expansive when around each other and that was cool. One of the series' best scenes is IMO in the fourth season, when Jessa and Adam are with Mimi-Rose and that pretentious ex-boyfriend of hers. The horrified way they both realize that they're dealing with genuinely cruel jerks who manipulate and hurt for the fun of it is something else. It also shows that  they're both wannabe sociopaths at best, compared to the big leagues displayed there.

[catlover79]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:01 PM, catlover79 said:

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Just because I don't think there's a plausible way to write Elliott back in after so long, doesn't mean there might be one. Of course, it all depends on whether or not Meloni would agree to do it. It would probably take Dick Wolf prying open the purse strings and getting persuasive ($$$$$). 

I guess I have to eat my words!! 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

On 6/7/2019 at 3:35 PM, catlover79 said:

Honestly, I think the time for Stabler to return - even for a one-off guest spot - has passed. I think that ship has sailed. MAYBE for the series finale, whenever that will be, but I just don't know how they'd write it so it would make sense. 

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

At the time, I assumed Jax/Alexis didn’t happen because Ned/Alexis were popular.  I definitely loved Ned/Alexis even though I loved the Jax/Alexis flirty friendship too.  I was always sad the writers broke up Ned/Alexis because the characters were so well suited to each other and had so much chemistry.

I like Jax and Alexis as friends, if anything, soaps need more platonic male/female friends who genuinely care about each other.

If anything, the relationship I liked and hated that they ruined was Jax and Skye.

[Luckylyn]

Even though the friend to lovers trope can be wonderful, there is value in strong platonic friendships.  I am so happy that 30 Rock never went romantic with Liz/Jack and Parks and Rec kept Lesile/Ron as friends.
 I wish Zoey/Max was kept platonic on Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist.   He’s got this “nice guy entitlement” attitude that comes out towards Zoey that makes him hard to like sometimes.  In other interactions I like him. I don’t like the Simon romance either because of the emotional cheating when he was engaged.  Plus I hated that whole quad of Max/Zoey/Simon/Fiancee whose name I forgot.  The writers need to not have her go back and forth between Max and Simon.  Let her pick one and stick to it or just be single for  the season letting her meet someone viable (not neighbor guy) for endgame in season 3.   Also Zoey comes off poorly.  She breaks up with Max because she’s not ready so soon after the death of her father but then she’s going to be with Simon.  I’m not thrilled about Simon/Zoey because I wanted them to be friends but now that it’s gone in that direction I want the show to stick to it and not have her end up ping ponging back and forth between Simon and Max. I hope giving Max a new love interest works out.  I do find him more likable when he’s not in romantic mode with Zoey.

 The only good thing about the Max/Zoey/Simon triangle is that the guys ended up friends with each other and Mo.   I thought that was a unique direction to go.   I want more Max/Mo/Simon friendship stuff.  

[Annber03]

19 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Even though the friend to lovers trope can be wonderful, there is value in strong platonic friendships.  I am so happy that 30 Rock never went romantic with Liz/Jack and Parks and Rec kept Lesile/Ron as friends.

Agreed. I have my favorite ships, and I love the "friends to lovers" trope (and many of the ships I like fit that trope). But part of the reason I like the ships I do is because of the strong, close friendship the characters share, so I'm always happy to see that side explored and focused on, too, and I'm fine with shows just leaving them as friends if they so choose. 

I've gotten into the show "Monk" in recent months, and I really appreciate that that show kept things platonic between Monk and both of the women he worked with. Occasionally, there might've been little moments where a character assumed Monk and Sharona, or Monk and Natalie, were together, and with Natalie especially there were occasional moments where it seemed like there was a bit of a flirtatious side to their interactions.

But at the end of the day, they never went there with putting Monk with Sharona or Natalie. They respected the fact that Monk was still very much devoted to his late wife to seriously entertain a relationship with anyone else (there were women he had brief crushes on here and there, but it never lasted beyond the span of an episode), and that it might be a long time, if ever, before he would be interested in being with anyone else again. And they still managed to develop a very deep, genuine, loving friendship between the characters. They weren't afraid to be affectionate and say they loved each other, but it was all meant on a purely on a friendship level. It's nice, and it makes their interactions on the show all the more touching and sweet as a result. 

That's not to say there weren't shippers, of course-a cursory peek into the fandom tells me Monk/Natalie, in particular, is a rather popular ship, and I can see it and would happily read (or hell, write) a few fics about that pairing. But I think the show was smart to keep things platonic between them to the end. That way, those who liked them as just friends/co-workers could imagine them continuing on in that vein, and any shippers who wanted them together could, on their own time, imagine that happening someday down the line in the distant future if they so wished. There's some shows where it makes sense to focus on a particular pairing together and let it play out on the show itself, but I also think for some shows, it's better to just let the viewers decide for themselves whether certain characters get together at the end. 

[catlover79]

Agreed about Monk. I could easily see him never wanting to marry again, and I'm glad they never even attempted to go there with Sharona AND Natalie (though it was implied more than once that Natalie had a bit of a crush on her boss). 

[Luckylyn]

I liked the Ugly Betty finale that left the outcome for Daniel and Betty ambiguous .  Daniel realizes he has feelings for Betty and asks her to dinner but viewers never see the dinner so it’s up to our opinion what happens next.  If you want to believe she rejects him romantically but they stay friends or if you believe she loves him too is up to you.

[aradia22]

Quote

Even though the friend to lovers trope can be wonderful, there is value in strong platonic friendships.  I am so happy that 30 Rock never went romantic with Liz/Jack and Parks and Rec kept Lesile/Ron as friends.
 I wish Zoey/Max was kept platonic on Zoey’s Extraordinary Playlist.   He’s got this “nice guy entitlement” attitude that comes out towards Zoey that makes him hard to like sometimes.  In other interactions I like him. I don’t like the Simon romance either because of the emotional cheating when he was engaged.  Plus I hated that whole quad of Max/Zoey/Simon/Fiancee whose name I forgot.  The writers need to not have her go back and forth between Max and Simon.  Let her pick one and stick to it or just be single for  the season letting her meet someone viable (not neighbor guy) for endgame in season 3.   Also Zoey comes off poorly.  She breaks up with Max because she’s not ready so soon after the death of her father but then she’s going to be with Simon.  I’m not thrilled about Simon/Zoey because I wanted them to be friends but now that it’s gone in that direction I want the show to stick to it and not have her end up ping ponging back and forth between Simon and Max. I hope giving Max a new love interest works out.  I do find him more likable when he’s not in romantic mode with Zoey.

I agree on the Liz/Jack thing. They had a great dynamic and their conversations yielded some of the shows best quips but I never wanted anything romantic to happen. 

I agree about Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist coming out as a bit of a mess because of the love triangle nonsense. I think it usually ends up happening at some point in TV shows but it was terribly sloppy in this show right out the gate and everyone comes off poorly. Still, if I know my TV, they will still make her choose one of them and also probably do some back and forth until we're TRULY sick of it. 

I disagree on Ugly Betty. I did not want Betty/Daniel and I felt it was a bit of a cop out giving everyone an ending they could interpret however they wanted. Maybe things played out differently in the original telenovela but Daniel was such a waste of space. I remember things got messy with her other love interests (Henry and Gio) though I forget the specifics. But Daniel??? TV shows that aren't committed to the OTP, tend to ruin all the love interests or awkwardly push a last minute positive spin on staying single. Yes, I was one of the people who disliked the ending of Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. It might have worked if they hadn't been playing love interest musical chairs up until the last second.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

I disagree on Ugly Betty. I did not want Betty/Daniel and I felt it was a bit of a cop out giving everyone an ending they could interpret however they wanted. Maybe things played out differently in the original telenovela but Daniel was such a waste of space.

Ugh, yes.  I mean, at least they didn't hook them up, but even hinting at the future possibility was gross given what we'd seen of Daniel and, specifically, his relationship with Betty.  I understand what the source material provided, but within the remake universe just suggesting it was annoying; "our" Betty deserved better.

[Trini]

13 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I agree about Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist coming out as a bit of a mess because of the love triangle nonsense. I think it usually ends up happening at some point in TV shows but it was terribly sloppy in this show right out the gate and everyone comes off poorly. Still, if I know my TV, they will still make her choose one of them and also probably do some back and forth until we're TRULY sick of it. 

 

Here's the thing about triangles: they're pretty predictable; and TV writers generally aren't subtle when it comes to romances.

Here's the thing about Zoey's: The triangle was there from the start. Yes, there was some messiness, but I liked all the characters, and there wasn't anything irredeemable, IMO. By the end of season 1, you could kinda see where they were going with it. However, at the start of season 2 it seemed like they were doing something different (yay! different!) by having the rivals become friends, and cutting out the back-and-forth. Where they messed up is them changing their minds about the back-and-forth seven episodes later -- so they were going to do the typical triangle tropes.

It didn't have to so messy, is the thing. I've watched enough TV, I was already expecting Zoey to get together with both love interests for a bit before she settled on one. The show could have just done that instead of pretending they weren't, and looking like they backtracked.

[Irlandesa]

16 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Maybe things played out differently in the original telenovela

I actually did ship Betty and Daniel (as much as I shipped anyone on that show--I like America Ferrera but I've never thought she had chemistry with any of her love interests in the things I've seen her do.)

But the decisions made for Ugly Betty had nothing to do with the original telenovela.  Very little about Ugly Betty resembled the original telenovela (which is able to be watched on Xfinity On Demand) except in the very broadest strokes which could be applied to any number of shows as opposed to Jane The Virgin which at least kept the main premise in tact.

Given that, and the fact that the creator had shut it down earlier, I was pleasantly surprised but I'm still not sure what was behind how he chose to wrap up the show. 

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

Here's the thing about triangles: they're pretty predictable; and TV writers generally aren't subtle when it comes to romances.

Indeed. Either they're set up with the clear purpose of delaying the inevitable coupling of two of the characters, or they're intended to carry on indefinitely, without any real resolution and to keep fans engaged and agonising over which legs of the triangle will win out.

There's something so irritating about seeing writers pat themselves on the back and beam with pride over their employment of the same, tired old romantic tropes that dozens of shows before them have used, almost beat for beat.

[Featherhat]

Having binged watched a lot of shows over the last 18 months for quarantine reasons I just need to reiterate how much I hate "will they, won't they" on TV. 

In 99% of cases by the time the characters get together it's either thrown together at the last minute so it's not at all satisfying or it's in the last couple of seasons when the writers, actors and audience are all board and the storyline is terrible.

In both cases anything interesting or unique able the pairing or show has been used up. The characters come across like morons for not being able to act like adults who like each other but are always super jealous whenever anyone else pays attention or they've had so many triangles or break ups that the relationship seems toxic. That's why the damn "Moonlighting Curse myth" still exists. The shows are always running on fumes anyway. Worst offender is still Castle for me, in the early seasons they actually showed promise of not dragging it out for years but squandered that. 

Special shout out to the granddaddy of the modern versions of this, The X Files, I know CC was noromo which is fine but then maybe don't *still* make the show a melodrama most soaps would be proud of whilst refusing to even have them together on screen for years. And then manage to create further cliche and stupidity in the revival. 

I have to say Bones pulling the same "surprise pregnant!" stunt over a decade later was a special choice. 

And I found out JAG had it's torturous melodramatic WTWT undone in NCIS:LA, which made me roll my eyes a lot. 

None of this was news to me but binging a lot made it extremely clear how this goes the same way every single time and yet most shows are still terrified to change it up. 

[Hiyo]

Triangles I liked (pretty much from soaps):

General Hospital - Sonny/Brenda/Jax (90s version)

Bold and the Beautiful - Brooke/Ridge/Taylor (also 90s version)

Beverly Hills 90210 - Brenda/Dylan/Kelly

Knots Landing - Val/Gary/Abby

I mentioned above the Jax/Alexis friendship from GH as a good example of a platonic friendship done well, I also have to give a shout out to Another World's Felicia and Cass. They were also an example of a well written strong friendship between a man and a woman.

 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I have to say Bones pulling the same "surprise pregnant!" stunt over a decade later was a special choice. 

Oh man - Bones. I wonder if they would have gotten that couple together that soon (or ever) if the actress hadn't gotten pregnant.

[Luckylyn]

Triangles I liked:

General Hospital - Jax/Brenda/Sonny ( the first time around.  After a while of repetition I stopped caring)

Daria - Daria/Tom/Jane

this one will be unpopular Friends - Joey/Rachel/Ross -  I thought Joey’s growth and realization of love were sweet.  Joey could be one note and the romance with Rachel livened the character up. I hated Ross by the end.  
 

90210 - Brenda/Dylan/Kelly

 

 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

this one will be unpopular Friends - Joey/Rachel/Ross -  I thought Joey’s growth and realization of love were sweet.  Joey could be one note and the romance with Rachel livened the character up. I hated Ross by the end.  

I was fully onboard with Joey/Rachel as a pair with romantic tension, when Joey started developing feelings for her in season eight. It made complete sense to me that he would, given that he was living with her and had gotten so close to her. Who wouldn't start to feel something?

There were some genuinely sweet and heartfelt moments for them as they navigated his unrequited feelings. I even liked Rachel developing a crush on him in season nine, though it was played with less sincerity and depth. But it was fun. Two sexy people wanting to have sex isn't a bad thing.

Then there's that fantastic scene between Joey and Ross where they talk it all out and Joey expresses the depths of his feelings for Rachel, while Ross finally realises that being proprietary and possessive over a woman he dated for a year, six years ago, is weird and something he needs to get over.... But then the writers tossed it all away in the following episode, with some slapstick comedy bit.

At the very least, I wish they'd used the season eight storyline as the impetus for Joey to want to find love and a meaningful relationship - that if he couldn't have it with Rachel, he at least realised he wanted to have something real with someone.

[Trini]

10 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Having binged watched a lot of shows over the last 18 months for quarantine reasons I just need to reiterate how much I hate "will they, won't they" on TV. 

In 99% of cases by the time the characters get together it's either thrown together at the last minute so it's not at all satisfying or it's in the last couple of seasons when the writers, actors and audience are all board and the storyline is terrible.

I will say, 'will they won't they' can work, but only in the short term. Like, three seasons - maximum. After that the teasing is just annoying and/or people stop caring.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I will say, 'will they won't they' can work, but only in the short term. Like, three seasons - maximum. After that the teasing is just annoying and/or people stop caring.

I think it can go five if within those five seasons, there's a period where they're together.  But after that fifth season, make a decision and keep them there.

[Hiyo]

I liked the will they/won't they drama initially on Alias. At least there, in the first season and a half, there were valid reasons why the 2 leads couldn't get together, the main one being they could literally be killed because of it. When the show rebooted halfway through season 2, it made them hooking up very satisfying.

Then the show was rebooted again for season 3, and the new will they/won't they drama became boring because they had one of the new people now married, which is somewhat unoriginal as far as keeping your lead couple apart...

[FurryFury]

Weirdly, when I rewatched Alias years later, I realized I hated Vaughn. He was so wishy-washy - it's really unappealing to me in a love interest.

[ABay]

I don't know it got the name "will they won't they" because it is always "they will". The question is when.

[ifionlyknew]

On 10/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, Trini said:

I will say, 'will they won't they' can work, but only in the short term. Like, three seasons - maximum.

And if the reasons they aren't together isn't overly contrived.   For me the gold standard is Sam & Diane on Cheers.  I also liked the build up to Ross and Rachel on Friends.  

[Llywela]

13 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I also liked the build up to Ross and Rachel on Friends.  

The build up was okay, the initial romance was fine. It was the eight seasons that followed of will they/won't they stay together/get back together that dragged!

[andromeda331]

Castle did a good job with the Will they or won't they in the first two seasons. Even the surprise of Castle dating his ex-wife in season two season finale made sense. Beckett was dating Demming and seemed happy, he had no reason to think that Beckett was going to break up with him and decided to tell Castle how she felt. Beckett realizing that Castle might not come back after the summer break and she had no reason to think that Castle would start dating Gina. All she ever heard was how they didn't get along and Gina had even called her in the episode because Castle was avoiding her calls because he didn't have his book finish (Castle's ex-wife Gina was also his publisher).

It fell apart in season three when Beckett's pissed that he didn't call after the summer and upset that he's still dating Gina. Even though we find out in a couple episodes later that Beckett was seeing someone else. They could have at least showed her dating someone after the first episode of season three. Her treatment of Castle would have at least made more sense. Still crappy though. Then we get to see Castle and Beckett trading insults about the peson their dating for the first half of three season. Then Beckett lying about hearing Castle tell her he loves her after she was shot in the last episode of season three in season four and Castle not telling her about the shady guy who contacted him to keep Beckett from investigating her mother's murder. Neither one was necessary and made both look bad.

[Irlandesa]

13 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

 For me the gold standard is Sam & Diane on Cheers.  I also liked the build up to Ross and Rachel on Friends.  

Sam & Diane and Wings is kind of where I get my "five year plan" from.  Sam and Diane and Joe and Helen spent about a year building up their romance.  Then they were together for approximately a year before there was a split.  The third season was fallout from their split and new relationships and then towards the end of the fourth season (Cheers) and fifth season (Wings) renewed interest/jealousy creeps back in and they're back together.  With Cheers, Diane left but with Wings, the relationship progressed from Joe and Helen getting back together through engagement and marriage.

And that's where I think Friends stumbled.  They could have followed that pattern but the very next tease they did should have stuck for R&R if they were committing to them (which they were). 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Irlandesa

[Danny Franks]

On 10/22/2021 at 3:28 AM, andromeda331 said:

Castle did a good job with the Will they or won't they in the first two seasons. Even the surprise of Castle dating his ex-wife in season two season finale made sense. Beckett was dating Demming and seemed happy, he had no reason to think that Beckett was going to break up with him and decided to tell Castle how she felt. Beckett realizing that Castle might not come back after the summer break and she had no reason to think that Castle would start dating Gina. All she ever heard was how they didn't get along and Gina had even called her in the episode because Castle was avoiding her calls because he didn't have his book finish (Castle's ex-wife Gina was also his publisher).

It fell apart in season three when Beckett's pissed that he didn't call after the summer and upset that he's still dating Gina. Even though we find out in a couple episodes later that Beckett was seeing someone else. They could have at least showed her dating someone after the first episode of season three. Her treatment of Castle would have at least made more sense. Still crappy though. Then we get to see Castle and Beckett trading insults about the peson their dating for the first half of three season. Then Beckett lying about hearing Castle tell her he loves her after she was shot in the last episode of season three in season four and Castle not telling her about the shady guy who contacted him to keep Beckett from investigating her mother's murder. Neither one was necessary and made both look bad.

I think Castle could be the textbook example of how dragging things out too long, and throwing in obstacles to keep the couple apart, ends up ruining the show.

I thought their chemistry in the first two seasons was as good as any I've seen on the screen, and every scene had a frisson of energy and potential. But then the writers decided they needed to keep them from getting together and started throwing obstacles in - Demming, Gina, Josh, then Beckett lies for an entire season about hearing Castle say he loves her.

Then they got together and managed to recapture a little of that heat, but the writers just kept putting obstacles in their way - Beckett gets a job in another city, Castle's dad is a CIA agent or some bullshit, then Beckett's actually secretly married (that's when I checked out).

They went from promoting the show as being like The Thin Man or Mr. and Mrs. Smith to talking about the Moonlighting Curse, and it was clear the writers and showrunner just didn't think they could write a successful relationship, so used every idea they could to keep the characters apart.

The main problem with that, as I'll never get tired of saying, is that when you use all your creative energies and ideas coming up with ways to keep a couple apart, you'll end up only putting them together as a last resort, when you've run out of any interesting ideas at all. That's when shows fall apart.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Goldmoon]

Warehouse 13 did the unspeakable with Pete and Myka in its last episode.  The two leads had ALWAYS had a brother and sister vibe with absolutely no romance throughout its five year run.  Then they suddenly "realized" they were in love with each other.  It was ridiculous and I believe it was brought on by execs who thought it was necessary without evidently watching the show.

[SusanM]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:49 AM, Luckylyn said:

. I hated Ross by the end.  

I started hating Ross when they wrote in his anger management and control issues and made it all either a joke or 'romantic'.  Ugh.

[ABay]

3 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Warehouse 13 did the unspeakable with Pete and Myka in its last episode.  The two leads had ALWAYS had a brother and sister vibe with absolutely no romance throughout its five year run.

Yes! They even had an episode that established that! On rewatches, I stop halfway through the final episode just to avoid the travesty.

[SmithW6079]

19 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Warehouse 13 did the unspeakable with Pete and Myka in its last episode.  The two leads had ALWAYS had a brother and sister vibe with absolutely no romance throughout its five year run.  Then they suddenly "realized" they were in love with each other.  It was ridiculous and I believe it was brought on by execs who thought it was necessary without evidently watching the show.

I never watched Warehouse 13, but I feel the same way about Mulder & Scully. They had a great platonic friends/brother-sister vibe, but it should never have been established as canon that they were lovers. It still bugs me to this day. 😒 

[Featherhat]

On 11/5/2021 at 12:01 PM, SmithW6079 said:

I never watched Warehouse 13, but I feel the same way about Mulder & Scully. They had a great platonic friends/brother-sister vibe, but it should never have been established as canon that they were lovers. It still bugs me to this day. 😒 

And then there are the fans who swear they've wanted to bang since the pilot, or at least season 2. ;) 

I actually sympathise with both shippers and anti shippers on this one and I think X Files went about it in the worst possible way and actually helped create the "Are they or aren't they?" obsession on both sides.  

Although in my comparison Mulder and Scully were more like a straight version of Myka/HG that *were* eventually revealed to be romantically and sexually involved rather than the sudden Myka/Pete in the finale. But obviously there's a huge amount of YMMV on that one.