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Wiendish Fitch

Because I'm Eeeee-viiilllllll: The Villains Thread

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Just now, Dandesun said:

I neither want nor need a redemption story for Kylo Ren. I hope Rey kicks his ass AGAIN. Then maybe Poe can shoot him or something. I don't even care.

Or better yet, have Finn take him out. Not only would it be extra humiliating for Kylo Ren to have his ass handed to him by an ex-stormtrooper, but it would conclude Finn's character arc in an especially satisfying way (well, to me, anyway). 

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2 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Or better yet, have Finn take him out. Not only would it be extra humiliating for Kylo Ren to have his ass handed to him by an ex-stormtrooper, but it would conclude Finn's character arc in an especially satisfying way (well, to me, anyway). 

See, I think Poe works because we saw Kylo torture Poe in Force Awakens. Finn had his own figure to deal with in Captain Phasma... which I think could have been dealt with better but that was Finn's character dynamic; having to face her down.

Rey has already taken on Kylo but I'd like Poe to get his licks in, too.

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4 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

See, I think Poe works because we saw Kylo torture Poe in Force Awakens. Finn had his own figure to deal with in Captain Phasma... which I think could have been dealt with better but that was Finn's character dynamic; having to face her down.

Rey has already taken on Kylo but I'd like Poe to get his licks in, too.

A compromise: Finn, Rey, and the friggin' Ewoks* kick Kylo Ren's ass, and Poe finishes the job in an epic, badass way that reverberates throughout the cinematic world.

*Why the Ewoks? Because I happen to love them and, again, it would be humiliating for Kylo Ren, and I want that hateful little puke to suffer physically and emotionally.

Edited by Wiendish Fitch
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4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

As for Edmund... he's deeply unlikable throughout the first part of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and that's also the point. He's also a young boy who has been sent away to the countryside with his siblings and without his parents during the Blitz of WWII. He's chafing under the 'authority' of his older brother AND the 'mothering' of his elder sister and, as a result, turns to bullying his younger sister.

It's spelled out repeatedly in the book that his behavior is NOT OKAY AT ALL. But, at the same time, guilt plagues him throughout. He knows he's behaving badly. He knows he's wrong but he doesn't turn back on the course he choose because he's a kid. But he DOES learn. He comes to the realizations of his wrongness on his own.

He steps up and apologizes to his siblings when he's got the chance and Aslan is able to assure him and help him remain strong when the Witch comes for him. Edmund, ultimately, does right. He doesn't offer excuses or demand forgiveness. He apologizes and asks to be a part of the family again. It's redemption done right.

C.S. Lewis deserves mounds of praise for giving Edmund Pevensie a reason and motivation for his actions ... but never once justifies them. For unlikable characters, it's often better to aim for empathy, not sympathy. Though I must say, Edmund still manages to be an infinitely more mature and sympathetic character than that pouty space doofus with Opera Man hair. Edmund sincerely apologizes to his siblings, feels true remorse, fights alongside them, and nearly dies on the battlefield. Now that's a redemption arc, because he's earned it. Oh, and he's a kid, not a grown-ass man who should know better.

Kylo Ren has done diddley squat to earn redemption. If he's still alive at the end of the third movie, I will be royally pissed.

Edited by Wiendish Fitch
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1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

A compromise: Finn, Rey, and the friggin' Ewoks* kick Kylo Ren's ass, and Poe finishes the job in an epic, badass way that reverberates throughout the cinematic world.

*Why the Ewoks? Because I happen to love them and, again, it would be humiliating for Kylo Ren, and I want that hateful little puke to suffer physically and emotionally.

YES!!! Make it happen, JJ! Though a team effort with just Rey, Finn, and Poe works too.

If he does die, he better not show up as a force ghost. He doesn't deserve that.

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1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

YES!!! Make it happen, JJ! Though a team effort with just Rey, Finn, and Poe works too.

If he does die, he better not show up as a force ghost. He doesn't deserve that.

Not going to lie my favorite Force ghost is hot young Anakin in the touched up Return of the Jedi because it makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL! I also love that Lego Star Wars (Droid Tales probably) totally lampshaded it with Luke going 'Obi-Wan! Master Yoda! ... Guy... I've never seen before?' 'It's me! Anakin! Your father!' 'Oh. You didn't look like that five minutes ago!'

And then Force Ghost Palpatine shows up and is all 'Hey guys, Force Ghost party right! No hard feelings or anything, eh?' And then Force Ghost Mace Windu shows up to beat his ass.

Lego Star Wars is amazing.

ALSO, that fabulous lady who did the live tweets watching Star Wars was all 'Who's that totally hot guy with Greenbean and the Voice of God?!' It is absolutely hilarious to me that the redone ROTJ completely confuses people with Hot Young Anakin's Force ghost. HILARIOUS.

Also, I kind of hate Anakin as a falling/fallen hero because he comes off just as whiny and petulant as Kylo. To be fair, he went through some shit but he never really overcame them. Nor do I get why Padme loved him. Whatever. I will say this about it all...

Anakin's whiny, petulant nonsense apparently bred true through to Ben/Kylo (although I really wish he'd gotten some Leia in there because Leia is a fucking boss and never whined ever through the entirety of the Star Wars saga and, somehow, all the whiny boys got the attention. Bull. Shit.) but Anakin's fall made Luke 10x the hero he already was in ROTJ. So, he served that purpose at least.

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This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not sure Anakin earned the right to be a force ghost so soon after death. As was previously said, while he did save Luke, it still doesn't totally make up for all the evil he did do. Or maybe being a force ghost for him was a form of penance. Gah, I'm overthinking things...

Darth Vader's redemption was well done. However, his evil moments were boss. Such as this little moment:

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3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Kylo Ren is a willing and eager member of the First Order.

"But he's soooooo dreamy" is basically the only argument for his redemption. If he were played by an actor who isn't some kind of "heartthrob" (I don't get the appeal but apparently the actor is "hot" to some) I doubt anyone would want his redemption. If Maleficent hadn't been played by "hot" Angelina Jolie I wonder if anyone would have cared about her redemption. 

I have to admit, when I find a villain attractive I like them better. I'm shallow and very visual so looks to influence me, but I still don't want the kind of crap redemption where the love of a good man/woman will make them a good person and the lack of love they felt as a child gives them a free pass to do all they did. Hotness only gets you so far. lol

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16 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

"But he's soooooo dreamy" is basically the only argument for his redemption. If he were played by an actor who isn't some kind of "heartthrob" (I don't get the appeal but apparently the actor is "hot" to some) I doubt anyone would want his redemption. If Maleficent hadn't been played by "hot" Angelina Jolie I wonder if anyone would have cared about her redemption. 

I have to admit, when I find a villain attractive I like them better. I'm shallow and very visual so looks to influence me, but I still don't want the kind of crap redemption where the love of a good man/woman will make them a good person and the lack of love they felt as a child gives them a free pass to do all they did. Hotness only gets you so far. lol

I think Adam Driver is an interesting actor but I'm not a-flutter over him and even if he were played by Chris Evans (who I am wildly a-flutter over) I'd still hate Kylo.

Because he killed Han and I've been in love with Han Solo since I was four. Some things you just don't get over.

I am absolutely positive that there are villains out there that I've been like 'Mmm... I would hit that...' but I honestly can't think of any right this second. "Hotness only gets you so far" is FOR REAL because there have been a number of heroes that are supposed to be all hot or whatever and I'm like 'shut up' when they start acting like dicks.

I freaking LOVE Magneto in the comics... well, probably 80% of the time. Serialized fiction usually means someone's going to act like a nutter douchenozzle asshole at least part of the time. In the movies, however, I've enjoyed him immensely even though I do start rolling my eyes after a bit and going "Really, Queen?"

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One of my favorite villains is Eve Harrington in All About Eve.  She is slow and methodical in her attempt to undermine Margo and gain fame as an actress.   She has a plan and executes it almost flawlessly.   She plays the role of an innocent young woman to perfection.   What I like about her as a villain is the fact that this is who she is.  There is no backstory about some man who did her wrong,  no story about how Margo wronged her, and no mental illness to justify her villainy.  She wants to be a star and is willing to do anything to get it, and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. 

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1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

Because he killed Han and I've been in love with Han Solo since I was four. Some things you just don't get over.

He was my second on screen love, the first was Hawkeye from Mash. So yeah, there is no redemption on Earth that will make me get over that. I don't even love to hate Kylo. I just forking hate him. 

50 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

One of my favorite villains is Eve Harrington in All About Eve.  She is slow and methodical in her attempt to undermine Margo and gain fame as an actress.   She has a plan and executes it almost flawlessly.   She plays the role of an innocent young woman to perfection.   What I like about her as a villain is the fact that this is who she is.  There is no backstory about some man who did her wrong,  no story about how Margo wronged her, and no mental illness to justify her villainy.  She wants to be a star and is willing to do anything to get it, and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. 

Yes. Eve was a perfectly crafted villain. She was just a stone cold bitch who was willing to do whatever it took to get what she wanted. 

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11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

He was my second on screen love, the first was Hawkeye from Mash. So yeah, there is no redemption on Earth that will make me get over that. I don't even love to hate Kylo. I just forking hate him. 

If he dies in the upcoming movie, I vote we all party on this thread.

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2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

If he dies in the upcoming movie, I vote we all party on this thread.

I'm in! That will become my greatest "Hell yeah!" movie moment. I hope Rey shreds him to tiny little there is no way in hell he can magically come back from this pieces. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:22 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker is a whiny, petulant, power-hungry, entitled little turd with no charming qualities even by villain standards, and yet somehow he's still got hoards of fangirls cooing and simpering over him.  "Oh poor Ben, poor Ben, he's sooooo tortured!  He should be with Rey."  

I am going to Disney with some friends in the fall and one of three things on my checklist is to tell "Kylo Ren" what a whiny, petulant, man baby he is and how much he sucks.  

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

If he dies in the upcoming movie, I vote we all party on this thread.

I'll make some margaritas.

Edited by kiddo82
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On 9/13/2019 at 9:22 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Although to be fair, what annoys me more is the villain apologist fanbases that try to justify the villain's actions: the "Syndrome/Kilmonger/Scar/Whoever Was Right" people.  It's infuriating.  Case in point: Kylo Ren/Ben Skywalker is a whiny, petulant, power-hungry, entitled little turd with no charming qualities even by villain standards, and yet somehow he's still got hoards of fangirls cooing and simpering over him.  "Oh poor Ben, poor Ben, he's sooooo tortured!  He should be with Rey."  Right, because she can't do any better -- oh, except for dashing Poe or sweet Finn (who adores her) or let her be single because she's awesome as is.  But I digress...

Yeah, those excuses sound like they come from the "We could save him!" crowd.  I don't mind seeing an explanation as to why a villain might be one way or another, if it's written well, but I don't need a story like that.  Also an explanation is not the same as an excuse.  There is no excuse.  I can also feel bad for someone's tortured background and still want them to get what's coming to them because those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I really don't enjoy most of the Star Wars films, so I don't remember what Kylo Ren's problem was, so I'll take your word for it that it was nothing more than him being a whiny, petulant, power hungry, entitled turd  :)

21 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

"But he's soooooo dreamy" is basically the only argument for his redemption. If he were played by an actor who isn't some kind of "heartthrob" (I don't get the appeal but apparently the actor is "hot" to some) I doubt anyone would want his redemption.

That's a bizarre argument. 

20 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I think Adam Driver is an interesting actor but I'm not a-flutter over him and even if he were played by Chris Evans (who I am wildly a-flutter over) I'd still hate Kylo.

My heart is a-flutter over Adam Driver, but it's one of those "I have no idea why, but there's something about him" kind of ways. 

I can't disagree with anyone mentioned in this thread yet.  The one villain, though, that I've been conflicted about for a decade, though, is Loki.  Talk about a whiny, petulant, power hungry, entitled turd.  But, still, Hiddleston does such a good job in that role and gives him enough charm (which, you know, some bad guys are charming) that I love to hate him.

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44 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

I really don't enjoy most of the Star Wars films, so I don't remember what Kylo Ren's problem was, so I'll take your word for it that it was nothing more than him being a whiny, petulant, power hungry, entitled turd  🙂

That's basically it unless the next movie does some big reveal. Han, Leia, and Luke all seemed to think that the blame falls on Snoke's influence but, as mentioned upthread, the truth is that Ben Solo idolized Darth Vader and the appeal was that he was a villain so he followed in his footsteps.

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Laurence Olivier's character from The Marathon Man.

He looks like an stereotypical old diamond dealer. . . when he's not busy being a murderous, torturing Nazi.

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2 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

I can't disagree with anyone mentioned in this thread yet.  The one villain, though, that I've been conflicted about for a decade, though, is Loki.  Talk about a whiny, petulant, power hungry, entitled turd.  But, still, Hiddleston does such a good job in that role and gives him enough charm (which, you know, some bad guys are charming) that I love to hate him.

I can't help loving Loki. He has at least more wit and charm than Kylo Ren, plus everyone just kind of is used to him stabbing them in the back when it suits him. Plus, he at least has done a few good things. Doesn't make up for everything, but still, we love to hate him.

12 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Laurence Olivier's character from The Marathon Man.

He looks like an stereotypical old diamond dealer. . . when he's not busy being a murderous, torturing Nazi.

"Is it safe? Is it safe?!" *shiver*

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23 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

One of my favorite villains is Eve Harrington in All About Eve.  She is slow and methodical in her attempt to undermine Margo and gain fame as an actress.   She has a plan and executes it almost flawlessly.   She plays the role of an innocent young woman to perfection.   What I like about her as a villain is the fact that this is who she is.  There is no backstory about some man who did her wrong,  no story about how Margo wronged her, and no mental illness to justify her villainy.  She wants to be a star and is willing to do anything to get it, and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process. 

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Yes. Eve was a perfectly crafted villain. She was just a stone cold bitch who was willing to do whatever it took to get what she wanted. 

Hopping aboard the Eve "Love to Hate" train! She's a fabulous villainess: manipulative, two-faced, ruthless, and cares nothing about the destruction in her wake. A textbook sociopath, and I really love Anne Baxter's portrayal of her. Some have criticized her acting, saying that Eve as an actress is no match for Margo. To that I say: I think that's the point. Margo is a great actress, but she's also fully human. Eve, on the other hand, is basically an empty shell. 

A character I've always likened to Eve is Rupert Pupkin from The King of Comedy, but it disturbs me that so many consider Rupert a "lovable underdog" as opposed to the deranged, obsessive, narcissistic, basement dwelling menace that he is! Seriously, what is "lovable" about hounding a celebrity, stalking him, kidnapping him, and then holding him hostage so you can host his show because you don't want earn fame and success the hard way?! Rupert is on par with all the toxic fanboys/fame-whores who contaminate our culture on a daily basis!

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Another classic villain is  the title character of Rebecca (1940) who manages to manipulate and dominate the lives of all around her including her supposed mentor Mrs. Danvers  and even those she's never met (the 2nd Mrs. De Winter) despite never appearing oncamera with the movie's entire storyline taking place after her mysterious death.

Spoiler

Oh, Mrs. Danvers (Australian [!] native Dame Judith Anderson) is the ostensible villain here Dame Judith does an outstanding job with her character emotionally blackmailing Rebecca's widower Max ( Laurence Olivier) while tormenting to the point of suicide the widower's 2nd wife (Joan Fontaine)   - the polar opposite of the title character so mousy that never once is her given name ever mentioned in the movie.  Yet the end of the movie reveals that even Mrs. Danvers has been cruelly tormented by the title character and it proves too much. Rebecca  is such a powerfully evil force of nature that there's absolutely no need for her to even be living much less 'revived' to wreak  havoc on the other hapless characters. 

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Kylo is hot but that's really about it. Is he awesome? He's already had his ass handed to him by Chewie, Finn and Rey. He's whining all the time, immature, and really, really dumb. He doesn't really seem to be good at anything. Vader was awesome he could force choke people from across the galaxy, he took the Rebel fighters seriously and went out in his own ship to fight them, stop blaster shots, excellent with a lightsaber, etc. 

Kylo's backstory makes zero sense his parents were too busy. Really? That's it. He supposedly turned after seeing Luke with his lightsaber looking like he was about to kill him. But Luke sensed the dark side growing in him which was true. Kylo was recruiting from Luke's Jedi Academy so how sudden was that turn? He didn't just attack Luke, he killed the other students that didn't join him. So, hey Kylo it sounds like Uncle Luke was exactly right to be suspicious of you. No one really respects him, likes him or thinks much of him on either side. He's just really whiny and pathetic. 

Anakin's backstory we know he was once a good kid, but raised in slavery, he left his mom back in slavery, had dreams about her that turned out to be true but he got to her too late, and the back and forth from the Jedi and the Jedi Order had become compliant. There was at least a little more reason for his turn. Not all of it of course. Freeing his mother and getting Anakin a therapist probably would have fixed a lot of problems. But the point of that is for it to be a parallel Luke's journey. Luke goes through a lot crap too. His uncle and aunt who raised him were killed by the Empire, Vader kills Ben, he has visions of Han and Leia in pain but keeps being advised not to go help them which he can't do, he loses his duel with Vader and learns that's his daddy, he learns Ben and Yoda were both lying to him about Vader and Leia. Both who keep urging him to kill Vader which he can't do. But where Anakin eventually broke and/or gave into the dark side. Luke didn't break. The closest he gets is after Vader threatens Leia and Luke attacks him and doesn't stop until he chopped off Vader's arm. Luke realized what he did but instead of turning to the dark side. He throws his weapon away. All Anakin/Vader's excuses and reasons and blaming others or not enough power.  He just saw his own son go through all off that and reject the Dark Side. Twice. He rejects Vader's offer in ESB and instead choses to fall to his death rather then join him. We see the Dark side starting to weaken in ESB at the end when he's too sad about Luke getting away to kill any more underlings. In RTOJ he doesn't want to kill Luke but doesn't seem think there's any other choice but the Dark Side. That scene when Luke tries to convince him to come with him. But when forced into that very question remain on the dark side or watch his master murder his son, he has to chose. He choses Luke and realizes his son was right about him all along. I don't mind the force ghosts but I do agree I wish Anakin had to wait longer together or some sign he had some punishment or something. Or even if it was before he was punished by the Force. 

And yes to Edmund. He makes mistakes and does the wrong thing but he does ultimately make up for it in the battle. You can see why he would make the choices and why but that it excused him. But he made up for it. That's something we very rarely see in movies or books where the Villain does bad things, realizes what he or she did was wrong and make up for it. 

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11 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

A character I've always likened to Eve is Rupert Pupkin from The King of Comedy, but it disturbs me that so many consider Rupert a "lovable underdog" as opposed to the deranged, obsessive, narcissistic, basement dwelling menace that he is! Seriously, what is "lovable" about hounding a celebrity, stalking him, kidnapping him, and then holding him hostage so you can host his show because you don't want earn fame and success the hard way?! Rupert is on par with all the toxic fanboys/fame-whores who contaminate our culture on a daily basis!

When you think about it, everything Rupert did is pretty much exactly what Syndrome/Buddy did in The Incredibles. Only he went the extra mile and started killing his superhero idols so that he'd be the only superhero worshipped by the public. 

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19 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

Also an explanation is not the same as an excuse.

That's the crux of it. I think some people don't understand that and think that if a villain has a horrible childhood they should be excused from punishment for all the bad they do.

I like a backstory that explains how the villain got where they are. Something set them on this path, not all villains, some are just born evil and I'm okay with that, but some had something happen to them, they made a choice, a bad choice and it led them down a dark path. Then they made another bad choice, then another, and at any point they maybe could have made the good choice, but they chose not to. That is actually interesting to me, the pattern of wrong choices that lead one to a life they think they didn't choose because they don't see the series of little choices that led up to it. 

I hate a backstory that tries to say the villain is just misunderstood or really just needed a hug or that life was so rough on them that they had no choice but to be selfish, horrible, murderous people. 

Villains should be a cautionary tale, not a template on how to get away with evil doings. 

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2 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Villains should be a cautionary tale, not a template on how to get away with evil doings. 

This should be framed somewhere. 

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15 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

A textbook sociopath, and I really love Anne Baxter's portrayal of her. Some have criticized her acting, saying that Eve as an actress is no match for Margo. To that I say: I think that's the point. Margo is a great actress, but she's also fully human. Eve, on the other hand, is basically an empty shell. 

I thought Eve being a lesser actress was kind of the point. The only way she was going to rise to the top was through all her manipulations etc because she wasn't as good as Margo. Which, IMO, makes Anne Baxter's portrayal amazing because her acting as Eve was perfect while her acting as Eve acting wasn't. 

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We watched Mission Impossible III last night.  I had only seen it once and that was a while ago, so I'd forgotten what a great villain Philip Seymour Hoffman was in that one.  No back story, no attempts at making him sympathetic--just pure evil.

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4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I like a backstory that explains how the villain got where they are. Something set them on this path, not all villains, some are just born evil and I'm okay with that, but some had something happen to them, they made a choice, a bad choice and it led them down a dark path. Then they made another bad choice, then another, and at any point they maybe could have made the good choice, but they chose not to. That is actually interesting to me, the pattern of wrong choices that lead one to a life they think they didn't choose because they don't see the series of little choices that led up to it. 

I saw Hustlers today and I thought they did a really good job of explaining why the ladies made the choices they made without ever really absolving them from the blame of those choices.  

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3 hours ago, spaceytraci1208 said:

Roy/"Aaron" in Primal Fear; Edward Norton was awesome in that role. One of the few literally jaw-dropping movie endings for me

"So there never was any Roy, was there?"



"Naw, man. There never was any Aaron."
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3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:
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"So there never was any Roy, was there?"


"Naw, man. There never was any Aaron."

I love that so much, SO MUCH.

There is no comic/cartoon villain that has the same power as the boy next door that you are rooting so hard for who turns out to be a sociopath that fooled you all along.

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On 9/14/2019 at 7:57 PM, Wiendish Fitch said:

A textbook sociopath, and I really love Anne Baxter's portrayal of her.

Oh I love to hate Eve so much, and Anne Baxter really was amazing in that role. She could shift from sweet and adoring to cold and calculated with just a slight change of facial expressions, so much that it looked creepy. I love that we never got any backstory in her (and her fake sob story about being a war widow was so despicably fake that even amoral Addison was disgusted by her) and that she was just a manipulative conniving liar, as well as terribly competent and driven in her ambitions. And her ending was deliciously karmic. 

I dont think that giving villains a sad backstory or some reason for what they are doing that they think justifies their actions (some of the best villains are villains convinced that they're the heroes) is necessarily a bad thing, as long as its framed correctly. It shouldn't be used as an excuse, it should be used as an explanation. 

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17 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

There is no comic/cartoon villain that has the same power as the boy next door that you are rooting so hard for who turns out to be a sociopath that fooled you all along.

That's how I felt about the reveal in The Usual Suspects-- Verbal Kint was unassuming and seemed very harmless  and then we watched as his poor, weak cripple persona turned out to be completely fake and he was the criminal mastermind Keyser Soze.  Brilliant!

A couple of more great villains?

I know that in The Silence of the Lambs, Dr. Lecter was the main villain but I have to tell you that I found Jame Gumb aka Buffalo Bill to be far more terrifying of a character--he is so insanely creepy when he's holding his dog Precious and taunting Catherine Martin "It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."  DAMN!!

Tom Ripley in The Talented Mr. Ripley:  he was very charming and likable and then we saw just how cold and methodical he was when he killed Dickie Greenleaf.  A very chilling scene.

Edited by kitmerlot1213
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52 minutes ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

That's how I felt about the reveal in The Usual Suspects-- Verbal Kint was unassuming and seemed very harmless  and then we watched as his poor, weak cripple persona turned out to be completely fake and he was the criminal mastermind Keyser Soze.  Brilliant!

A couple of more great villains?

I know that in The Silence of the Lambs, Dr. Lecter was the main villain but I have to tell you that I found Jame Gumb aka Buffalo Bill to be far more terrifying of a character--he is so insanely creepy when he's holding his dog Precious and taunting Catherine Martin "It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again."  DAMN!!

Tom Ripley in The Talented Mr. Ripley:  he was very charming and likable and then we saw just how cold and methodical he was when he killed Dickie Greenleaf.  A very chilling scene.

RIGHT!!

I see these cartoon villains and they just aren't scary. I mean, dude in clown make up fighting dude in bat costume? How is that scary? I have to suspend so much disbelief to buy the hero that I don't have enough left to buy the villain.

Buffalo Bill was creepy as hell and I became so aware of windowless vans in parking lots after seeing that film. 

As already mentioned, Norman Bates, Hans Gruber, Eve Harrington and Verbal Kint.

Baby Jane Hudson in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? She was downright terrifying. She was in many ways the prototype for Annie Wilkes in Misery

Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was chilling.

Reverend Powell in The Night of the Hunter.

Vic Vega/Mr. Blond in Reservoir Dogs. 

Those are some solid villains. 

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3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Those are some solid villains. 

And they are not super-powered or wanting to take over the world, or whining about their mommy issues (except Norman, the poster boy for Mommy Issues), they are just straight up, stone cold evil. Some are certifiably crazy, some are just assholes and all of them are so, so human, which is what really makes them terrifying. They could be the guy living next door, the lady on the bus, that co-worker who always seemed so nice. I have always found that sort of everyday villain far more frightening than your comic book supervillains or sci-fi alien villains (and I love both Marvel movies and sci-fi I just usually find their villains silly more than scary.)

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5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was chilling.

Before the final act, I don't really think of Nurse Ratched as a villain.  Power tripping?  Sure.  But ultimately kind of just doing her job.  It's not her fault should be in jail convicted rapist McMurphy doesn't like rules.

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12 minutes ago, kiddo82 said:

Before the final act, I don't really think of Nurse Ratched as a villain.  Power tripping?  Sure.  But ultimately kind of just doing her job.  It's not her fault should be in jail convicted rapist McMurphy doesn't like rules.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that she messed with Billy's head, preyed on his mother issues, and was complicit in his suicide. If it hadn't been for all that, I could see your point.

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5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Baby Jane Hudson in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? She was downright terrifying. She was in many ways the prototype for Annie Wilkes in Misery

I was thinking of Annie Wilkes just as I read this! She'd definitely qualify, too. Especially considering her reasons why she holds Sheldon captive-she's taking a simple complaint that many people have about a creator's work and going to truly frightening extremes with it. 

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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Sure, if you ignore the fact that she messed with Billy's head, preyed on his mother issues, and was complicit in his suicide. If it hadn't been for all that, I could see your point.

Right.  Before the final act.  And I'm not hand waving what happened in that act away but it doesn't feel organic to the character.  It's been a while since I've seen the movie (and I've never read the book) but she's supposed to be this face of oppression, this ICONIC face of oppression, and we don't really see her oppress anybody.  Because she doesn't let them watch baseball?  Then all of sudden she's mind fucking Billy?  And in real life that is inexcusable and she should never be able to look at herself in the mirror again, but in the movie it just never added up for me.  

Edited by kiddo82
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15 hours ago, kiddo82 said:

Right.  Before the final act.  And I'm not hand waving what happened in that act away but it doesn't feel organic to the character.  It's been a while since I've seen the movie (and I've never read the book) but she's supposed to be this face of oppression, this ICONIC face of oppression, and we don't really see her oppress anybody.  Because she doesn't let them watch baseball?  Then all of sudden she's mind fucking Billy?  And in real life that is inexcusable and she should never be able to look at herself in the mirror again, but in the movie it just never added up for me.  

Actually, it was implied from her "group therapy" sessions that she was messing with his head for quite some time.  She was pushing him to talk about painful and embarrassing experiences without offering any sort of warmth and or support.  In fact, far from actually helping any of the patients, those groups seemed just an excuse to belittle and/or rile them up.  The calm, cold way she sits and watches that fight break out in the session speaks volumes.  So, no, that third act didn't exactly come out of nowhere.

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The hype around Joker's opening Friday is making me even more ill now that I've read the spoilers and know exactly what's happening. It's everything we feared and worse.

The same old villain apologia: the world is so cruel to poor mentally ill Arthur (he does not deserve the Joker's name): his mom is sick, he laughs uncontrollably, nobody likes him, his neighbor Domino won't fuck him, all the rich people of Gotham are so horrible...some of the reviews that thankfully don't buy into the hype point out that the movie purposefully makes all his murder victims jerks to justify what he does. 

Even Batman's dad, Thomas Wayne, is rewritten into a Trumpesque political figure who manipulates poor people. And the movie briefly flirts with the idea that Arthur might be Batman's half brother. Gag. It turns out it's not true, but gag. All leading up to when the Joker incites a mob of criminals, some of whom murder the Waynes in a home invasion, leading to traumatizing Bruce and creating Batman.

What the ever loving hell?! I thought DC movies were starting to find its groove, but clearly I was wrong. Also, Todd Phillips can go fuck himself.

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On ‎09‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 7:16 PM, Dandesun said:

I am absolutely positive that there are villains out there that I've been like 'Mmm... I would hit that...' but I honestly can't think of any right this second.

For me, it would be any villain played by Alan Rickman.  But I still wouldn't want Hans Gruber to be redeemed at the end of Die Hard because he had a hard childhood or some such nonsense.  He had far too much fun being the bad guy.

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7 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

But I still wouldn't want Hans Gruber to be redeemed at the end of Die Hard because he had a hard childhood or some such nonsense.  He had far too much fun being the bad guy.

Agree. I especially laughed when he was giving the police the names of all these terrorist groups he wanted to released because they were his "comrades" and that other EVUHL dude with the blonde hair repeated the name, Hans covers the mouthpiece of the phone and tells him "I read about them in Time Magazine."🤣🤣

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One of the reasons I like the character of Killmonger is that he rejects the possibility of redemption offered to him by T'Challa.

He's like "Nah, I'm good with what I did."

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Watching Addams Family Values now and what I really love about Morticia's "Pastels?" crack at Debbie is the logic in it. Like if you're going to be evil, at least look the part!

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On 10/2/2019 at 8:25 AM, Spartan Girl said:

The hype around Joker's opening Friday is making me even more ill now that I've read the spoilers and know exactly what's happening. It's everything we feared and worse.

  Reveal spoiler

The same old villain apologia: the world is so cruel to poor mentally ill Arthur (he does not deserve the Joker's name): his mom is sick, he laughs uncontrollably, nobody likes him, his neighbor Domino won't fuck him, all the rich people of Gotham are so horrible...some of the reviews that thankfully don't buy into the hype point out that the movie purposefully makes all his murder victims jerks to justify what he does. 

Even Batman's dad, Thomas Wayne, is rewritten into a Trumpesque political figure who manipulates poor people. And the movie briefly flirts with the idea that Arthur might be Batman's half brother. Gag. It turns out it's not true, but gag. All leading up to when the Joker incites a mob of criminals, some of whom murder the Waynes in a home invasion, leading to traumatizing Bruce and creating Batman.

What the ever loving hell?! I thought DC movies were starting to find its groove, but clearly I was wrong. Also, Todd Phillips can go fuck himself.

It gets better!

In an article about the movie, which hasn't even opened yet, Phillips compared The Joker to John Wick as far as the violence in the movie and the criticisms thereof. Dude, shut up. You wish The Joker had even half that much motive, so can it.



Not sure if I should spoiler, but just in case.

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Like I said before, Todd Phillips can go fuck himself.

I'm starting to feel like I owe an apology to Tim Burton's version of the Joker.  Jack Nicholson still wasn't the best Joker by a long shot -- he was still Jack, just in clown makeup, making him Batman's parents' killer was hamfisted, and the Vicky Vale stuff was just dumb -- but Tim Burton and Jack got more right about the Joker than this piece of crap did.  And I did love the visuals of Joker prancing around and vandalizing the museum to Prince music.

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15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Watching Addams Family Values now and what I really love about Morticia's "Pastels?" crack at Debbie is the logic in it. Like if you're going to be evil, at least look the part!

Very underrated, funny film. Joan Cusack was great in it.

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