Season 3 Talk

[ch1]

Ani made this season hard to sit though.  I found her playing detective to be completely absurd (I also thought the scenes of her and Clay basically interrogating everyone was absurd).  I also found it ridiculous that everyone would be sharing their particular secrets with someone they pretty much just met. 

So many things about the writing for the character annoyed me.

[bettername2come]

Starting 3x07

I like Ani as a character, although I feel we'd be better off without narration. I don't see what she's adding as we go on. I will say I love her "there are a number of problems with Clay Jensen." It's funny cause it's true.

I really liked Tony's storyline last episode. Choosing not to translate the Spanish worked for me, despite getting like five percent of what was being said. There's a nice connection between Monte being so insistent that he didn't love Bryce (which he totally did) and between Clay and Tony being so open in saying it. Isn't Clay's mom a lawyer though? She totally could've helped Tony's family, even if it was just to help find someone to take the case pro bono. 

[Sarahsmile416]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So is this Ani girl supposed to be our new main character or something? To take Hannah's spot as the main girl/narrator/Clay love interest? Because, while I know pretty much every character can be really unlikable, I just am not into her at all. Maybe because despite being a new character she is suddenly being shoved into every characters lives for no reason? Or because she seems to be heading into Bryce apologist territory, which...hell to the no. Or because we already have a ton of characters so we dont need a new main character at this point? I mean, if they want another main female character, where is Shari? We already know Shari, and she and Clay had kind of thing, right? I liked Shari, I miss her, especially when this new rando gets tons of screen time. The actress is fine, but...I dont really see her point.

I would take Hannah’s ghost as narrator over Ani. She added nothing to this season, beyond acting as an apologist to Bryce.  

[Bobcatkitten]

I think the idea that a totally new person would come into the school and know so much about everyone and their secrets so quickly just isn't realistic. On top of that she is annoying and seems kind of condescending when she has her own shit. 

I would have preferred if they kept an existing character as the narrator - would make more sense how they knew everything. 

[bettername2come]

3x08

Why the hell is Porter allowed to have any kind of role in this investigation? What were they thinking? I love the subtle shade everyone throws at him about him and Bryce having issues and "Hannah went to an adult." I love that everyone stands up for Clay and I like that that was Porter's plan all along. Zach continues to be a decent and fair guy, respecting Clay and his desire to do what's right even if he doesn't consider him a friend. The scene between Tyler and Clay was good; I really liked Clay's awkwardness when he wanted to hug Tyler but was hesitant to ask if he could. I'm glad that secret's finally out even if it's just to Clay.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I felt no sympathy for Monty.  Do they think I feel bad for him because he slept with Winston and then cuddled with him. 

He’s still the same person who brutally raped Tyler, was a huge jackass to everyone else and then denied the sexual assault to everybody else later.  

I agree and I feel the same way about Bryce. Just because he had non-rapey sex with Ani and did a few nice things (got the drug charges against Justin dropped, threatened Monty to leave Tyler alone) doesn't change the fact that he's a bully and a serial rapist who lied in court to save his rapist ass.

7 hours ago, Stiggs said:

I was less bothered by his “redemption” arc than I thought because I don’t think he was redeemed at all. Hours before he died he viciously broke his “brother’s” knee out of some extremely petty shit. He was literally a fucking asshole to the end. He had a moral compass - it was just off. I think he really wanted to not be a raping asshole, but I also think he knew he always would be. He’s a bad dude who did some decent things occasionally. 

I think that he had some genuine moments of regret for what he did and that he FINALLY realized how much he damaged Hannah and Jessica. I also think that he had some desire to change but that he spent too much time feeling sorry for himself and how this affected him, and that one of the reasons he wanted to change was because he was tired of dealing with being known as Bryce the Rapist (boo hoo that people at your new school don't like you BECAUSE YOU ARE A RAPIST) as opposed to wanting to be a better person for the sake of being a better person. If you want to be a good person, then just do it.

But that brings me to the next point - even though I do believe that part of Bryce truly did want to change, (1) it was hard and he's a bit lazy/spoiled and (2) there's a part of him that will always be an asshole (and to be fair, we ALL have that selfish jerk inside of us that wants to do whatever we want). If you truly want to change, it takes work to override your selfish/mean/id impulses and not act on them.

His attempt at being a better person reminded me of when my New Year's resolution was to be healthier (eat better, exercise more). I meant it when I said I wanted to do it but it was work and sometimes I was like fuck it, I'm having french fries. Changing your behavior requires a lot of concerted effort and intent is not enough. You have to actually do the work (otherwise, my intent to run for an hour on the treadmill would be enough to cover my cardio for the day).

Maybe with enough therapy and effort, he could have become a better person. He took a good first step by making that tape and accepting responsibility for what he did to Hannah and Jessica. But there's no magical bandaid for changing from a shit person to a good person. It's work and YOU have to do it all. which is why it annoyed me when he asked Hannah's mother to help him and when he told Ani he needed her in order to become a better person. Yes, having good people in your life and a strong support system definitely helps (as does having the right therapist) but in the end, it's up to you to change. You can't put that responsibility on other people.

[truthaboutluv]

I hate that they changed the board to remove individual episode discussions because I can't comment until I'm done and I've only barely made it two episodes. However I had to post just to say that uh yeah Ani can leave anytime. Sorry, not sorry. Not here for the know it all, sage wise one, all up in everyone's business personality.

And the Bryce thing is annoying because it's like who seeks out someone who is a known rapist.  She didn't give the impression she didn't believe Jessica. In fact seems she wanted to be Jessica's friend but hey, let me bond with the guy who fucking raped her while she was passed out drunk, because, "I saw his pain", Ugh, whatever.

Especially since the writers, at least again as far as I've watched, have kept Bryce as the same fucking predatory asshole. So Ani looks dumb as fuck and annoying to boot. She's annoying in the flashbacks and she's annoying in present day. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Stiggs]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I agree and I feel the same way about Bryce. Just because he had non-rapey sex with Ani and did a few nice things (got the drug charges against Justin dropped, threatened Monty to leave Tyler alone) doesn't change the fact that he's a bully and a serial rapist who lied in court to save his rapist ass.

I think that he had some genuine moments of regret for what he did and that he FINALLY realized how much he damaged Hannah and Jessica. I also think that he had some desire to change but that he spent too much time feeling sorry for himself and how this affected him, and that one of the reasons he wanted to change was because he was tired of dealing with being known as Bryce the Rapist (boo hoo that people at your new school don't like you BECAUSE YOU ARE A RAPIST) as opposed to wanting to be a better person for the sake of being a better person. If you want to be a good person, then just do it.

But that brings me to the next point - even though I do believe that part of Bryce truly did want to change, (1) it was hard and he's a bit lazy/spoiled and (2) there's a part of him that will always be an asshole (and to be fair, we ALL have that selfish jerk inside of us that wants to do whatever we want). If you truly want to change, it takes work to override your selfish/mean/id impulses and not act on them.

His attempt at being a better person reminded me of when my New Year's resolution was to be healthier (eat better, exercise more). I meant it when I said I wanted to do it but it was work and sometimes I was like fuck it, I'm having french fries. Changing your behavior requires a lot of concerted effort and intent is not enough. You have to actually do the work (otherwise, my intent to run for an hour on the treadmill would be enough to cover my cardio for the day).

Maybe with enough therapy and effort, he could have become a better person. He took a good first step by making that tape and accepting responsibility for what he did to Hannah and Jessica. But there's no magical bandaid for changing from a shit person to a good person. It's work and YOU have to do it all. which is why it annoyed me when he asked Hannah's mother to help him and when he told Ani he needed her in order to become a better person. Yes, having good people in your life and a strong support system definitely helps (as does having the right therapist) but in the end, it's up to you to change. You can't put that responsibility on other people.

Word to all of this. Also, if Bryce was going to be one of the bazillion rapists walking the streets, at least he was trying to make amends and improve, regardless of what motivated him. I am just not sure he would have “changed” for good. If you have it in you to rape and break legs, that seems like a lot to exorcise. 

[STFUFrank]

I could care less about Bruce but the actor playing him is quite possibly the strongest actor in this ensemble. He made people hate Bryce which wasn't hard to do but still the actor hit his part out of the ballpark. 

[Fufu]

20 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

From my understanding the whole gang we saw listening to Bryce's tape.

But the tape was made b4 he died. I'm talking about who knows who killed him

[ally862]

I finished the season so, beware of spoiler comments.  I actually thought it was going to be Ani's mother who killed Bryce.  That she found out about them sleeping together and thought he'd get her off track.  And that was why Ani was lying during the narration, to cover for her.  I didn't see it coming that it was Alex (it had crossed my mind that Jessica had something to do with it because the conversation with her dad was weird).  I kind of want to go back and rewatch it to see if there clues about Alex but I actually have no desire to watch it again so that says a lot.

All that being said, I thought the first 2 seasons were pretty realistic depiction about how hard it is for teens today whereas this one was just so over the top that it took me out of it.  I loved Tyler's arc but thought the babysitting til he's better thing was ridiculous.  The whole, murder setup and coverup is just ridiculous though 

[Racj82]

People seem to be caught up in seeing the show as trying to redeem people like Bryce and Monty.

That was never the point to me. The show isn't about making anyone one dimensional. Bryce and Monty are terrible human beings but they aren't the devil. They are completely evil.

It reminds me of when someone complains about a character being written as out of character. That's not a real thing. People's actions cannot be predetermined solely on prior behavior. The nicest person you know can be capable of doing terrible things and vice versa.

I appreciate the show demonstrating how flawed every single character is on this show. Most of them should be locked up or disciplined by now. Doesn't make them horrible people in some cases. Just flawed.

Please have Ani killed off screen with barely a mention of her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, ally862 said:

it had crossed my mind that Jessica had something to do with it because the conversation with her dad was weird

When she kept saying that her dad tucked her in, I was like SO THE FUCK WHAT? Just because he saw her get into bed doesn't mean she stayed there all night (I say that at someone who snuck out of the house after my parents were asleep). That's like someone saying, "I saw Jessica at school before first period," and assuming that means she didn't ditch any classes later in the day. Just because you are in one place at a certain time doesn't mean you are there for the next eight hours.

[ShortyMac]

I just finished the season and I agree with a lot that has been said here. Alex and Jessica did it...I wonder if that will ever come out. It has to, right?

I knew that the detail of the guns that were thrown in the river would circle back at some point. Maybe Tyler will be charged after all with unlawful firearm possession, conspiracy, threats, etc. Clay and Tony could be in trouble for helping him escape, conspiracy, aiding and abetting/accessory. 

Bryce was an asshole to the end. Justin Prentice did a great job making his character so believably horrible.                                        

[Bill1978]

The way I interpreted the reveal of Bryce's murder, is that in order for the theory that Monty killed Bryce everybody who listened to Bryce's tape had to be clued into the fact that Alex pushed Bryce over the rail and that Jessica was a witness to it, to ensure that all the alibis are consistent etc. Alex's dad was also shown to have suspected it was his son with the burning of Alex's clothes in the bin.

[Whimsy]

8 hours ago, ally862 said:

I finished the season so, beware of spoiler comments.  I actually thought it was going to be Ani's mother who killed Bryce.  That she found out about them sleeping together and thought he'd get her off track.  And that was why Ani was lying during the narration, to cover for her.  I didn't see it coming that it was Alex (it had crossed my mind that Jessica had something to do with it because the conversation with her dad was weird).  I kind of want to go back and rewatch it to see if there clues about Alex but I actually have no desire to watch it again so that says a lot.

All that being said, I thought the first 2 seasons were pretty realistic depiction about how hard it is for teens today whereas this one was just so over the top that it took me out of it.  I loved Tyler's arc but thought the babysitting til he's better thing was ridiculous.  The whole, murder setup and coverup is just ridiculous though 

I agree with this and am afraid that kids watching are going to think this is how you can handle someone who is that fragile and mentally unstable.  Tyler needed professional help (and not just by the school counselor...).  I still feel his story was the strongest of the season and think the actor did a great job, I'm just afraid of the take-away some kids may get from it. 

What a convoluted mess this was.  First, I agree with everyone who was annoyed by even the presence of Ani and how inserted she became with everyone's lives in such a short time.  In real life, with no serious issues and secrets, ok- I could buy her becoming fast friends.  But, with these specific kids with the secrets they have?  No way.  I also hated that she was used as a prop to "humanize" Bryce.  I don't believe that Ani, as smart and capable as she was, would've been in the dark for so long (she would've started googling as soon as she got a hint of something major happening there) and I don't believe for one second she would've gotten involved with Bryce.  And then, after all of that have her say "I love you" in Swahili to Clay?  What?  

But, the part that I hated the most was the story that Ani laid out for Alex's dad.  I get that it had to be Alex and then Alex's dad hearing the story for it to even work because his dad would only cover up evidence for his own son, but it was still laughable that he'd say "How do you know this?" and Ani would say "I told you, I pay attention" and then he's all like "Cool.  That's all the evidence I need!!".  Also, when that kid that Monte slept with came and talked to Ani and he was like "He didn't deserve to die that way", well that had absolutely nothing to do with the story they gave the police.  Monte died because he was in jail for his own crimes.  That one line bothered me because it felt like he was blaming Ani for Monte's death.  

I had the hardest time with Bryce during this season.  I'd seen interviews with the full cast and everyone really seemed to like the actor who plays Bryce (too lazy to look up names right now), so I think that played a huge part in my softening towards Bryce a little here and there throughout the series.   I 100% believe he needed to be in jail.  I'm just saying the actor kind of sold it for me in the moments when he seemed to want to be better so I kept feeling bad for him.  But, I don't think for a minute I'd feel that way towards a real person.  Just, on my TV I give much more allowances for things and accept character growth and change for entertainment.  But, I kept struggling with myself when I'd feel bad and remind myself that he's a terrible person and I would never give him all these chances in real life.  I would be more willing to accept rehabilitation if it was through more than him just saying "I'm going to do better".  He needed to be in jail, getting counseling, etc.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

34 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

when that kid that Monte slept with came and talked to Ani and he was like "He didn't deserve to die that way", well that had absolutely nothing to do with the story they gave the police.  Monte died because he was in jail for his own crimes.  That one line bothered me because it felt like he was blaming Ani for Monte's death.  

I had the same issue to. Monty dying had nothing to do with what Ani told the police but somehow Winston made it seem like she had sent an assassin to take out on poor innocent Monty which is ridiculous.

It was not her fault that Monty was killed in jail. He was there because Tyler reported his ass for what he did. Ani and the others just used Monty's death to conveniently get the police to stop looking into their group of friends for Bryce's murder. Yes, they took advantage of the situation and yes, they set Monty up to take the fall BECAUSE they already knew he was dead, but they didn't cause his death.

Even if you agree that Monty didn't deserve to be killed in jail, the fact that it happened was not because of what Ani and the others said or did. Considering how mopey Bryce was this season as a result of the rape accusations against him, maybe Monty got the better deal. Now that he's dead, he doesn't have to deal with the fallout of Tyler filling that police report and having people at school hate him (because we know what a victim Bryce was due to the same thing). Bonus: Monty doesn't have to deal with his abusive asshole father anymore! (for the record, I'm kidding about Monty getting the better deal this way - he deserved to live so that he would have to deal with the repercussions of what he did).

I know the show wants me to think that Winston has a kind heart for sticking up for Monty, but I think he has a touch of Stolkholm syndrome. How else can you explain him having heart eyes for the guy who beat the shit out of him at a party about five minutes after getting a blow job from him? Realistically, I know that Winston is a plot device to stir up drama next season, but it's still annoying

[ch1]

I thought his issue was that Monty was being blamed for something he knew Monty couldn’t have possibly done.  Yeah he was a shit person and deserved his punishment for what he did to Tyler but he doesn’t deserve to take the fall for someone else’s crime.

[ally862]

About Winston's comment, I agree they worded it funny but I took it to mean Monte didn't deserve to die as a murderer.  I get that the kids were using him since he already died and wouldn't face any consequences but they're still making his legacy that of a murderer.  Yes he was a horrible person and his family was horrible but now everyone is going to remember him as a murderer and his family has to live with that.  I'm not sure if we're supposed to think its acceptable because of how he was and how his family was.  For example, I don't think people or the kids would have been as accepting of pinning a murder on someone like the kid who died in the car accident in the first season, Jeff I think?  He was a good kid and his family would suffer if they thought he'd murdered someone.  Monte was a horrible person, the worst one on the show in my opinion, but he still wasn't a murderer and I think that's what Winston meant.

3 minutes ago, ch1 said:

I thought his issue was that Monty was being blamed for something he knew Monty couldn’t have possibly done.  Yeah he was a shit person and deserved his punishment for what he did to Tyler but he doesn’t deserve to take the fall for someone else’s crime.

Haha I was just posting the same thing 🙂

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When she kept saying that her dad tucked her in, I was like SO THE FUCK WHAT? Just because he saw her get into bed doesn't mean she stayed there all night (I say that at someone who snuck out of the house after my parents were asleep). That's like someone saying, "I saw Jessica at school before first period," and assuming that means she didn't ditch any classes later in the day. Just because you are in one place at a certain time doesn't mean you are there for the next eight hours.

I did remember that Alex's alibi had actually been, to Clay and Ani, that he had been with Jessica, which I did find odd when Jessica was insistent that she was home (which made it clear she wasn't) but that she wasn't with Justin, but it never really clicked until the finale. 

Not that many of the kids had good alibis to begin with. 

40 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

I agree with this and am afraid that kids watching are going to think this is how you can handle someone who is that fragile and mentally unstable.  Tyler needed professional help (and not just by the school counselor...).  I still feel his story was the strongest of the season and think the actor did a great job, I'm just afraid of the take-away some kids may get from it. 

Yeah, I was extremely bothered by the handling of Tyler this season. Not his character, because his character growth really was one of the best parts of this season, but the message it actually sends to kids. Yes, it's important to recognize the signs of a mentally unstable kid and help where is needed, but sometimes kids need professional help. Kids can't handle something this serious on their own and this show kind of waved away any kind of professional help for Tyler and basically said "hey, if you make a schedule to be by this mentally unstable kid's side for a few months, they'll get better!" But they're never actually addressing the problem. 

It's like how they handled Hannah's suicide scene in season 1. I got their idea, but it was a completely wrong way to handle it. Also like they handled Tyler's rape scene as well. And this season has been notoriously bad at portraying things that are realistic.

I just don't think sending the message that kids can only help kids is what they were aiming for, but what they ultimately hit on for me. Sure, the season DID end on Tyler saying that he'd talk to an adult, but with all the other things they screwed up this season, it's hard to say that they went about it the right way. I mean, Tyler also needed to face what he did. Yes, what happened to him was horrible but now, with the guns being found, I do think it's right for him to face those consequences. And luckily, with Tyler's story this season, I think he'll accept those consequences, even if the others (like Clay) will try to fight it. 

I mean, this season also handled the character of Ani incredibly poorly. She was a rape apologist. Even though we saw that Bryce was trying to change, she didn't see everything that we did. Ani still had a skewed perception of Bryce's redemption arc. Just because she was living in their home, it doesn't mean she was aware of everything that went on. So, in the end, she was still making excuses for him raping multiple girls....hell, she was making more excuses than Bryce was this season! So, of course I could never like Ani, and that's only part of where she went wrong as a character (the other part was how she treated Clay and how he still ended up with her in the end). 

54 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

I had the hardest time with Bryce during this season.  I'd seen interviews with the full cast and everyone really seemed to like the actor who plays Bryce (too lazy to look up names right now), so I think that played a huge part in my softening towards Bryce a little here and there throughout the series.   I 100% believe he needed to be in jail.  I'm just saying the actor kind of sold it for me in the moments when he seemed to want to be better so I kept feeling bad for him.  But, I don't think for a minute I'd feel that way towards a real person.  Just, on my TV I give much more allowances for things and accept character growth and change for entertainment.  But, I kept struggling with myself when I'd feel bad and remind myself that he's a terrible person and I would never give him all these chances in real life.  I would be more willing to accept rehabilitation if it was through more than him just saying "I'm going to do better".  He needed to be in jail, getting counseling, etc.  

Justin Prentice was a highlight of this really bad season for me (not necessarily Bryce, but the actor). I think that, for me, I can recognize that Bryce was a rapist piece of shit who should have had himself tossed in jail for at least ten years but at the end of the day, he was still a kid who could have had decades to change. For people like his father or grandfather, it was far too late to change their behaviour. But an eighteen year old boy who was showing signs of wanting to change? I think he could have changed if he had time. It wouldn't have happened overnight (and I appreciate that he did backslide in his behaviour because it's totally realistic for someone who was as awful as Bryce to return to his core personality), but there was still a chance, which is why he shouldn't have gotten murdered. 

I think this season did show that Bryce was starting to figure it out. He was taking small baby steps and no doubt he would have continued to backslide and return to the behaviour and thoughts and feelings he had for many years, but he was STARTING to change, and that's what is important. 

I mean, Alex literally murdered him in cold blood. He killed Bryce when he was at his most vulnerable, when Bryce couldn't fight back. Alex and Jessica both watched Bryce cry for help and drown. Zach broke Bryce's leg, refraining him from being able to move, and then tossed his phone into the water and left him there. He was never planning to go back for him, which means Bryce most definitely would have died anyway. And...we're supposed to consider these people the good guys? Maybe the lesson is that there are no good guys, but I don't think that's what the show wants us to think.

I think we're supposed to be rooting for these people to get away with killing a teenager, covering it up, and framing it on another dead teenager because....they're victims and the dead people were the villains. Which, ok, Bryce and Monty were assholes who deserved consequences for their actions, but they very well can't get that when they're dead.

And right now, the show has gotten me hoping that all of them get caught. Monty's secret boyfriend Winston may have blamed the wrong person for his death, but he is certainly on the right track with blaming them for something, because Monty WAS framed for something he didn't do and now, as a dead man, he can't vouch for himself. Now, Monty's name is not just as a rapist, but as a murderer, which isn't even true. 

...part of me does wonder whether they didn't show Monty's death onscreen because they plan to show it next season, or whether there's more to it (maybe he's not dead, for example). 

[bettername2come]

I feel like the show wanted to make two main points - 1) people can change, but only if they really want to and have love and support and 2) Boys are stupid. I'm looking at you, Winston. But also a lot of the main cast. These people make terrible life choices.

I should've suspected it was Alex all along but truthfully he mostly slips my mind when he's offscreen. I suspected everybody at some point, but mostly Monte and Ani's mom. Justin Prentice did a good job. I did believe that Bryce wanted to change and was even trying to somewhat, but that didn't stop him from still being a violent, spoiled brat, vandalizing drug dealer who can barely take responsibility for any of his actions. 

I don't think this season was as strong as the last two seasons. There's a lot of elements of this show that I enjoy - great performances including the surprisingly low key Mark Pellegrino, guys willing to admit how much they love one another, some deeply loyal friendships, people trying to be better versions of themselves, and showing that people are complex instead of being just one thing. But it's so over the top and they're constantly making very poor life choices, and Alex was a really shitty friend letting Clay and Zach get suspected and not telling them anything, and I'm really bothered by that because Zach and Clay are probably the two most decent people on the show. Seriously, would he have told if Clay had actually gone to trial? Would he have let Zach think it was him?

Also, not as good a cliffhanger as last year.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

.part of me does wonder whether they didn't show Monty's death onscreen because they plan to show it next season, or whether there's more to it (maybe he's not dead, for example)

I feel like there's going to be a plot twist next year that Monte's not really dead and that was just false information spread to draw out the real killer.

[memememe76]

The portrayal of Bryce's mother was really well done. IMO, this show did a better job than, say, Big Little Lies of showing a mother grieving for a son who caused so much misery to other people. The scene between her and Hannah's mother was a highlight. 

I like Ani more than most, but I can understand why she annoyed so many. The show lacks the romantic highs of season one. Justin and Jessica ain't it for me. Does her dad know? If so, how hasn't he maimed Justin yet?

And I miss Sheri, Courtney and Ryan. At least Courtney had a few scenes, that provided nice humour. And I prefer Ryan over Tony's boring boyfriend. And Sheri was so misused. 

The show does a wonderful job of highlighting male bonding, but man, is there one truly viable female friendship on this show? 

I ultimately preferred season three over season two because there was no trial. I hate trials. I liked that the kids mainly stayed inside the school environment. 

[Last Time Lord]

I wonder if I was supposed to laugh as hard as I did when Ani pointed out that Clay’s favorite character in the AKR comics was the guy whose sole personality trait is that he wants to save everyone, and then going “Ah” a moment afterwards, as it clicked for her. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Last Time Lord

[Bobcatkitten]

Am I going crazy? I thought there was a separate thread to talk about the ending of Season 3. What happened? 

[Miles]

I'm on episode two. Are they really trying to make us feel bad for Bryce? Seriously? WTF?!

Yeah, not going to happen, writers. You can't just show somebody to be an unrepentant monster for two seasons and then make him out to be like some poor victim.

Whenever I hear about new girl talk about Bryce's pain I want to vomit.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Miles

[Sarahsmile416]

1 hour ago, memememe76 said:

The portrayal of Bryce's mother was really well done. IMO, this show did a better job than, say, Big Little Lies of showing a mother grieving for a son who caused so much misery to other people. The scene between her and Hannah's mother was a highlight. 

I like Ani more than most, but I can understand why she annoyed so many. The show lacks the romantic highs of season one. Justin and Jessica ain't it for me. Does her dad know? If so, how hasn't he maimed Justin yet?

And I miss Sheri, Courtney and Ryan. At least Courtney had a few scenes, that provided nice humour. And I prefer Ryan over Tony's boring boyfriend. And Sheri was so misused. 

The show does a wonderful job of highlighting male bonding, but man, is there one truly viable female friendship on this show? 

I ultimately preferred season three over season two because there was no trial. I hate trials. I liked that the kids mainly stayed inside the school environment. 

I mean if we are supposed to buy Ani and Jessica as friends (which I don’t), I guess that could count.

But damn, this show fails the Bechdel test pretty damn badly lol

[RW88]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I mean, Alex literally murdered him in cold blood. He killed Bryce when he was at his most vulnerable, when Bryce couldn't fight back. Alex and Jessica both watched Bryce cry for help and drown. Zach broke Bryce's leg, refraining him from being able to move, and then tossed his phone into the water and left him there. He was never planning to go back for him, which means Bryce most definitely would have died anyway. And...we're supposed to consider these people the good guys? Maybe the lesson is that there are no good guys, but I don't think that's what the show wants us to think.

I think we're supposed to be rooting for these people to get away with killing a teenager, covering it up, and framing it on another dead teenager because....they're victims and the dead people were the villains. Which, ok, Bryce and Monty were assholes who deserved consequences for their actions, but they very well can't get that when they're dead.

I really wish the "murder" had been more explicit.  I think we're supposed to see it as Alex flying into a roid rage and killing Bryce, but the direction gave it an ambiguity that allowed for a reasonable explanation of "oops."  Which is something I don't think they were going for in this scenario.  It all happens really fast.  Bryce is lurching and hurling accusations at Jess and Alex pushes him into the water.  I don't know that him dying was the intention, which makes the convoluted cover-up all the more problematic.  Sure, he falls in the water and begs for help, but he almost immediately drops below the surface and drowns.  It's not like they stood there for a long time just watching.  I can easily conceive of a scenario where they were both kind of in shock and by the time they snapped out of it, it was too late.  That could have been reasonably explained without jeopardizing them or anyone else.  

Zach's culpability is far more problematic for me because he literally confessed to beating the guy to within an inch of his life, breaking both an arm and a leg for good measure and then leaving him there.  As stated, without Alex and Jess showing up, he probably would have died anyway out there overnight with no way to seek help.  And the police know this, because he told them.  And then released him saying "don't worry about it kid,he drowned."  Maybe he drowned because he was beaten near death and had no means to call for help.  A reasonable person could assume that Bryce fell into the lake on accident while trying to drag himself towards help after being beaten.  Alex's assist almost seems incidental.  

This is probably the biggest reason I don't look forward to them rehashing this storytelling in the final season.  Tyler did what he did, I get it, but I feel like they put a pretty bow on even his creepy picture taking.  A coffee house exhibit, GREAT!  Not so creepy after all, but you know, still a little creepy.   A crime he tried to commit, but ultimately didn't?  How interesting is that really?  Dead dude blamed for a murder that has like EVERYONE's fingerprints all over it?  Eh.  Who is going to investigate it?  The Deputy who is already aware of all of it and even helped by burning his kids clothes from the night of the ill fated swim lesson?  Really?

The biggest mistake I think they made here was sort of saying rape=bad, murder=okay, if they were a rapist.  Don't get me wrong, I too would have no problem with rapists "just disappearing" into a lake in the middle of the night.  Fine with it actually.  And if that was the narrative they were going for, I'd be all in.  Dexter was one of my favorite shows, you know until it turned into trash.  I don't need them in jail, just tone down the self righteous indignation.  Zach was all about ratting on Tyler but took his sweet time to turn himself in.  And of course no one cared anyway, because beating crap out of someone, breaking their limbs and cracking their skull is like not really a crime.  It was in that moment of confession that I needed the "murder" to be more explicit.  I was happy for Zach.  I saw the relief in his face upon learning he hadn't murdered his "friend."  I saw it and I don't think I'd convict Alex if the truth were laid bare.  I'd totally think that dude who broke his limbs and cracked his skull was worse than the dude with the limp who tried to protect his ex from a raging rapist.  I don't know, maybe that's just me,

[Bobcatkitten]

I wish they would have either had Bryce's death be a true premeditated murder or that Alex truly stumbled with his bad leg and Bryce accidentally fell in. This weird middle ground didn't work for me. 

[tabularasa]

Exactly, Zach did worse and this show made it seem kind of ok to kill the rapist. Went from getting no justice to death sentence. I don't like it.

Has anyone missed Hannah Baker?

And the feels like no more "the night we met"? I still almost cry when I watch the scene..

[Chicken Wing]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I wish they would have either had Bryce's death be a true premeditated murder or that Alex truly stumbled with his bad leg and Bryce accidentally fell in. This weird middle ground didn't work for me. 

That's exactly why it did work for me. I hate long drawn-out murder mysteries that build up all the suspects and all the motives each of them had for being the killer and the big reveal turns out to be a big nothing, that a completely unrelated person did it or the death was actually just an accident that had nothing to do with any of the umpteen reasons the person probably deserved to be killed on purpose. It feels like a cop out. This felt organic. I don't really peg any of these people as setting up a planned, premeditated murder, and an accidental "whoops" situation would have been silly. Alex did it, not in a methodical planned-out setup way, but he committed a deliberate act on purpose. Did he fully intend for Bryce for die when he threw him over the ledge? Because that would be the difference between a murder 2 charge and a manslaughter charge. That's not quite clear, you'd kind of have to get into the person's mind to know that in this situation. I mean it's not like he pulled out a gun and shot him in the face - then it's pretty obvious that he intended for him to die. But throwing someone off a pier into a river that's not really that far below, it's not so clear that you're trying to kill them. Getting thrown into the river was not in itself fatal. Had it not been for his injuries, Bryce would have been able to pop back up just fine and swim to shore. But he couldn't move. But who knows if Alex had that very thought in mind. What we do know is that he hated Bryce in that moment, and he wanted him to stop, and so he threw his helpless self off a pier and then stood there and did nothing while Bryce flailed in the water with his broken limbs and finally sank beneath the surface. It felt believable. It felt like someone one of these people would do, given what Bryce had done, given what he was saying in those last moments before Alex just lost it with him. I think any of the kids could have had given in to that crime-of-passion urge. It's just that it happened to be Alex, and in a way that made sense for what Alex could do, for reasons that made sense for why someone would want to kill Bryce. It wasn't a copout or an accident. It wasn't because of blackmail or a drug deal gone wrong or whatever. Ultimately Bryce died for his original crimes. He got thrown off a pier because he was a hateful, vicious asshole and the friend of the person he had hurt the most finally had enough. In the end, the answer was actually quite simple and straightforward. I liked that.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Chicken Wing

[Sarahsmile416]

4 hours ago, RW88 said:

I really wish the "murder" had been more explicit.  I think we're supposed to see it as Alex flying into a roid rage and killing Bryce, but the direction gave it an ambiguity that allowed for a reasonable explanation of "oops."  Which is something I don't think they were going for in this scenario.  It all happens really fast.  Bryce is lurching and hurling accusations at Jess and Alex pushes him into the water.  I don't know that him dying was the intention, which makes the convoluted cover-up all the more problematic.  Sure, he falls in the water and begs for help, but he almost immediately drops below the surface and drowns.  It's not like they stood there for a long time just watching.  I can easily conceive of a scenario where they were both kind of in shock and by the time they snapped out of it, it was too late.  That could have been reasonably explained without jeopardizing them or anyone else.  

Zach's culpability is far more problematic for me because he literally confessed to beating the guy to within an inch of his life, breaking both an arm and a leg for good measure and then leaving him there.  As stated, without Alex and Jess showing up, he probably would have died anyway out there overnight with no way to seek help.  And the police know this, because he told them.  And then released him saying "don't worry about it kid,he drowned."  Maybe he drowned because he was beaten near death and had no means to call for help.  A reasonable person could assume that Bryce fell into the lake on accident while trying to drag himself towards help after being beaten.  Alex's assist almost seems incidental.  

This is probably the biggest reason I don't look forward to them rehashing this storytelling in the final season.  Tyler did what he did, I get it, but I feel like they put a pretty bow on even his creepy picture taking.  A coffee house exhibit, GREAT!  Not so creepy after all, but you know, still a little creepy.   A crime he tried to commit, but ultimately didn't?  How interesting is that really?  Dead dude blamed for a murder that has like EVERYONE's fingerprints all over it?  Eh.  Who is going to investigate it?  The Deputy who is already aware of all of it and even helped by burning his kids clothes from the night of the ill fated swim lesson?  Really?

The biggest mistake I think they made here was sort of saying rape=bad, murder=okay, if they were a rapist.  Don't get me wrong, I too would have no problem with rapists "just disappearing" into a lake in the middle of the night.  Fine with it actually.  And if that was the narrative they were going for, I'd be all in.  Dexter was one of my favorite shows, you know until it turned into trash.  I don't need them in jail, just tone down the self righteous indignation.  Zach was all about ratting on Tyler but took his sweet time to turn himself in.  And of course no one cared anyway, because beating crap out of someone, breaking their limbs and cracking their skull is like not really a crime.  It was in that moment of confession that I needed the "murder" to be more explicit.  I was happy for Zach.  I saw the relief in his face upon learning he hadn't murdered his "friend."  I saw it and I don't think I'd convict Alex if the truth were laid bare.  I'd totally think that dude who broke his limbs and cracked his skull was worse than the dude with the limp who tried to protect his ex from a raging rapist.  I don't know, maybe that's just me,

I wish I felt like the overall message was rape=bad, because for me it seemed like the overall message in seasons past was rape=bad, but in this season it seemed more like rape=fine as long as the person feels bad and apologizes 🙄

[Hellohappylife]

Ani was annoying start to finish. Like that annoying little sister that just won’t go away.  I was over her once she implied that Jessica’s last encounter with Bryce was to have consensual sex, with her fucking her rapist. 

Another moment I enjoyed was Justin telling Jessica in front of everyone how not every guy who plays sports is a rapist or creep. Playing sports is just another outlet for someone to get thru tough times,the same way Jessica’s Grouo  used it as a tool.  It’s not fair to say every sports guy has to suffer losing athletic teams they love because  of the actions of someone else. 

For awhile there I really thought Bryce’s mother was going to be the killer,think of the public embarrassment she felt knowing the horrible things her son did,she warned ani how evil and dangerous her son could be,along with the fact,her father and Exhusband was horrible. 

Like others,I think Tyler’s story line this season was the best. The sad thing is, You almost never hear about how sexual abuse effects guys,or that it even happens at all. The guy really Needs an award for that performance, I could never imagine holding a gun to my head, especially if it was part of my “job”  That shit has to be tough,even as an actor playing a role. 

The ending, covering up Bryce death with Monty,to me seems like a reminder that despite everything,these kids still haven’t learned how to be honest with anyone outside of the “group” and for that they will never truly have peace.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Hellohappylife

[Straycat80]

I just finished the season. Agree with what most of you have said. I did like it, better than I thought I would. I don’t know how there can be a season four, aren’t these kids Seniors?

Also, and I might have missed it but, did they say how Monty died? 

[Chicken Wing]

Standall said Monty was killed in his cell, so presumably another inmate or inmates beat him to death - I guess they knew what he was in for.

Season 4 will pick up later in the school year. This season's "present day" took place over just a few days in November.

[DFWGina]

What I couldn't get past is not one person worried about Justin and the drugs.   We (the audience) knew he relapsed last season (or never really was clean in order to "relapse").   However, he was totally shady and sick looking.  I can't believe no one was concerned about his being on or off drugs.  Were they so worried about Tyler that Justin's drug problem was swept aside?   

Along that same line... I feel like next season's storyline could be an HIV storyline with all the revelations of what Justin did for drugs, that he was shooting (needle) heroin and clearly we saw condoms but I can't believe all the spontaneous sex with Jessica as she found her sexual self was protected...  

I kept asking my husband - why is no one concerned about Justin and the drugs?  Til it finally came out....  And then no one was concerned.  Justin's issues swept under the rug to deal with everyone else's -- kinda like his whole life, huh?

[Hellohappylife]

26 minutes ago, DFWGina said:

 I kept asking my husband - why is no one concerned about Justin and the drugs?  Til it finally came out....  And then no one was concerned.  Justin's issues swept under the rug to deal with everyone else's -- kinda like his whole life, huh?

The show has way too many issues going on so I can see why they tried to make his drug problem seem least “important” or “serious”  

Plus it’s not the first time Justin has relapsed. Living with an addict isn’t easy,it’s hard, it’s unpredictable and can take years trust them again....  the sad truth is After awhile people eventually give up on an addicts.  You can only help someone so much,the addict has to be the one ready to get better.  Not the family or people effected. If that were the case the Heroin addiction rates in this country wouldn’t be so large

[Last Time Lord]

Finished the season late last night/early this morning. There is a lot to process. 

Alex’s dad totally knows. 

Hearing Ani telling the story of what happened, while seeing what actually happened was very chilling.

I’m not sure I believe Monty is dead since we didn’t see a body. Unless they purposely didn’t show it due to the past two seasons facing controversy after having something graphic on this TV-MA Rated show. 

Tyler’s actor should get several award nominations at the very least for is performance when he told Clay, alone

Edited August 27, 2019 by Last Time Lord

[tennisgurl]

This season continues to chug along, and I truly have no idea what they are doing with Ani. Granted, I am not done with the season so maybe this will come together more, but she seems to have taken up so much screen time, and taken it away from the characters we already know (Courtney hardly exists this season), and she just comes off as this weird self insert fanfic character written by a first time fanfic writer. She has a cool accent, a cool unique name, she is suddenly a major part of all the characters lives and social circle, including them telling her all of their many, MANY secrets, and is even apparently inspiring Bryce of all people to try and reform. And thats not even getting into the fact that she spends half her time defending Bryce, and is even hooking up with him now, a person who she knows raped one of her friends! I mean, "I dont believe what I hear, I believe what I see"? What the fuck does that even mean? "I know I've heard that the Manson family murdered tons of people, but because I didn't actually   see them painting the walls with blood, I dont believe it! I dont believe the nation of Sweden exists, because I've never seen it in person!" And acting like CLAY is the scary one, when she is willingly dating a known bully and rapist?! After she has basically lied about everything ever, and has sat around casting   judgement on all these people she hardly knows, about situations she knows nothing about?

I just wanted to yell  "She doesn't even go here!"

Why are the kids in this show not in ALL of the therapy? Is Jess not seeing a therapist after the trial? Alex after his suicide attempt? Have the Jensons not thought about sending Clay or Justin to see a professional? Its clearly not that easy to shake off heroin addiction. Someone actually competent for once? Maybe thats why we haven't seen Courtney much, her dads sent her to a decent shrink who advised her to stay the hell away from all of this drama.

The shows attempts to humanize Bryce is...complicated. I dont totally know where the show is going with it yet, but it makes me feel weird. Like, I think its interesting to show him as a human and not a monster, who like the rest of the cast is a product of a number of things and capable of both bad and good, but at the same time, the guy is a freaking rapist! I dont feel bad that people at his new school are mean to him and his old friends dont like him, because he raped multiple people! I dont blame people for wanting to avoid him! Maybe he could have gotten better, with loads of therapy and learning to take responsibility, but he still seems stuck up on being upset that this all sucks for HIM, and not his victims. I cant buy that Alex of all people would hang out with him, even if he was desperate for drugs and people to treat him like a man, and even he was reminded "oh yeah, this guy is a garbage person" and left. I can appreciate the show making him more complicated than just a cartoon villain, but come on! 

You know, maybe if the cops had spent as much time investigating the multiple rapes, violent bullying among students, drug abuse, and child abuse and neglect going on, as they did this murder, half of this crap never would have happened! I mean, half the kids in this town are being abused, harassed, raped, and beaten in public places, yeah yeah whatever, but a known rapist gets killed? Holy crap all hands on fucking deck! Yeah they need to solve murders, but maybe they can put all this effort into the other billion problems their town has?

[Miles]

On episode 7.

So the writers are doubing down on the character assasination they did on Clay in season two. A bold move Cotton, let's see if it pays off... If it was me I would have pretended like season two never happened and hoped people forgot about it, but not these writer. Brave.

I remember Alex talking about Clay being a scrawny kid a few episodes ago. Now we see him without a shirt and dude has a massive sixpack. Ah Hollywood...

At this point Ani seems mighty good for the murder. But I doubt any writer would go there, with a new character. Then again, these writers have prover that they are shit before, so who knows.

[Miles]

Episode 8: Tyler telling Clay about him being raped was hard to watch. I couldn't get through it in one go. That was some seriously good acting... not so much from the actor who plays Clay, but oh well.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, "I dont believe what I hear, I believe what I see"? What the fuck does that even mean? "I know I've heard that the Manson family murdered tons of people, but because I didn't actually   see them painting the walls with blood, I dont believe it! I dont believe the nation of Sweden exists, because I've never seen it in person!"

This really bothered me too for multiple reasons. Ani is not an infant so object permanence should not be an issue for her. Just because you weren't in the room to witness Bryce raping MULTIPLE GIRLS doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But that's what rape apologists do - they use excuses like "he wasn't like that with ME so obviously he isn't capable of raping anyone else." I mean seriously, so the holocaust never happened because you didn't personally see it?

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I cant buy that Alex of all people would hang out with him, even if he was desperate for drugs and people to treat him like a man, and even he was reminded "oh yeah, this guy is a garbage person" and left.

ITA - at least with Justin, it was a tiny bit more understandable that he felt terrible when Bryce died because they'd known each other almost alll their lives and until recently, Bryce was nice to Justin. So I get why Justin was conflicted and upset when Bryce died because Bryce had taken care of him and helped him for years. Justin loved him like a brother for a long time. Despite that, even Justin was fed up with Bryce's behavior after the trial.

But Alex? Why on earth would he willingly spend any time with him? He could have gotten steroids from Luke or someone at the gym. He didn't HAVE to go through Bryce, let alone go break into a house with him. And he somehow didn't remember that Bryce is an awful person until he started laughing about scaring that kid? I guess he conveniently forgot that Bryce raped the girl he claims to love more than anything. If someone did something that terrible to my friend, I would never want to hang out with them.

[Miles]

Episode 12:

Some great acting all around in some very emotional scenes... except for the guy who play Clay. Yikes, that's hard to watch in contrast. I don't think he was so much worse than everybody else in season one, but I guess everybody else got better and he didn't...

Ani confirmed psychic: "I won't lie to you. At that moment, in his eyes I saw anger. Hatred. But not for me. For Bryce. Over the first half, the anger and the hatred only burned hotter. By half-time, he was ready to go after Bryce."

I mean that the only explaination, unless Clays eyes literally hold up signs and tell predict the future. Because there is no way Ani could have known about that. She wasn't there and nobody told her.

[Miles]

Thoughts on the entire season:

Well, this was a lot better than season two, but that's such a low bar, even Hermes Conrad couldn't limbo under it. (I'm allergic to massive retcons that make no sense, so that season was torture for me).

I didn't buy Bryce's redemtion arc, or showing that he's a person with many sides, or whatever you want to call it. We had seen him for two seasons. There was not an ounce of remorse in him. There was no empathy, no willingness to change, only smugness and a glee of having gotten away with being a serial rapist. He was shown to be a true psychopath. And now he's suddenly feeling remorse and wants to become a better person? Buh Humbug!

I think I would have had a much easier time believing a Monty redemption arc. For one he only raped one person, not a busload, while not even quite seeming to grasp the severity of what he had done, for another he did actually seem to feel guilty for some of the things he had done and for yet another, he actually had a really fucked up home, a father who regularly beat him and might have killed him, had he learned outside of a room with an armed guard that his son was a fag. The only hard life Bryce had is that Momy and Dady didn't pay enough attention to him.

Speaking of Monty. How very convenient for everybody that he was murdered in jail. Otherwise they wouldn't have had a scapegoat. And why was he killed? That wasn't really made clear. His father said some bullshit about gays getting killed in prison, but that's just what it is, bullshit. This is 2019, not 1919. Gays might get raped more in prison, since we are seen as less manly or something, but not killed. Even Oz had a bunch of gay characters that weren't killed any more regularly than the rest of the cast (if you discount death by AIDS). How can a show in this day and age concoct such bullshit?

So in conclusion, I overall enjoyed the ride. There were good moments and really good acting. But not sure if it will be enough to make me come back next year. I only came back for this seasn, after the abysmal second one, because I loved season one so much. But I think the good will that that one created in me has run out.

[Miles]

On 8/25/2019 at 2:40 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ugh, Ani lying to Clay about Bryce for the millionth time was so annoying. And how would she know that Clay's anger just got hotter during the first half of the football game if she was inside the school with Jessica's club until the protest?

Hehe. Great minds and all that. See my complaining about this a few posts above.

On 8/25/2019 at 2:40 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Clay, SHUT UP! Stop talking to the police before your lawyer shows up!

I think I yelled that at my screen about 5 times.

On 8/25/2019 at 12:53 PM, Bill1978 said:

Non-US watcher here, this part confused me. Why did Tony's family get deported but Tony and his sister weren't? Is it because Tony and the sister were born in the US?

Also non-us watcher here, but yes. Tony said their parents came into the country in 1991. Meaning he and his sister were born there and are thus US citizens, but his older brothers weren't.

On 8/24/2019 at 11:47 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Tony's growing pornstache has been driving me crazy. Hey, show - he already looks older than the other kids so let's not emphasize that with a full on Tom Selleck mustache.

Stay away from my eyecandy! But seriously, for me they all look mid to late 20s, with Tony only looking marginally older and I really like that look on him. So please leave me one of the few nuggets of joy I can get out of this show.

On 8/26/2019 at 10:28 PM, tabularasa said:

Has anyone missed Hannah Baker?

Season 1 Hannah, yes. Season 2 Hannah, noooooooooooope.

On 8/25/2019 at 10:58 PM, Sarahsmile416 said:

I would take Hannah’s ghost as narrator over Ani. She added nothing to this season, beyond acting as an apologist to Bryce.  

They could have had Bryce's mother do it. She has experience in such matters, having been the dead narrator for a decade on desperate housewives.

On 8/26/2019 at 10:20 PM, RW88 said:

Zach's culpability is far more problematic for me because he literally confessed to beating the guy to within an inch of his life, breaking both an arm and a leg for good measure and then leaving him there.  As stated, without Alex and Jess showing up, he probably would have died anyway out there overnight with no way to seek help.  And the police know this, because he told them.  And then released him saying "don't worry about it kid,he drowned."  Maybe he drowned because he was beaten near death and had no means to call for help.  A reasonable person could assume that Bryce fell into the lake on accident while trying to drag himself towards help after being beaten.  Alex's assist almost seems incidental.  

Yeah, that was ridiculous. If I was somebody with the police, I would assume that after he was beaten half to death, Bryce fell into the water while trying to drag himself to civilisation. Ockham's razor and all. Sombody coming along later and killing Bryce is a thing that only seems reasonable on TV, but not in real life.

I mean sure, they should still investigate further, but just letting him go? And even if they were sure he didn't kill Bryce, that's still aggravated assault he just confessed to. You gotta charge him with that. That's your job!

[Bill1978]

5 hours ago, Miles said:

Also non-us watcher here, but yes. Tony said their parents came into the country in 1991. Meaning he and his sister were born there and are thus US citizens, but his older brothers weren't.

Thank you. I'm of the vintage that thinks the 90s were just yesterda. So my brain just thought oh Tony's family have been in America for 5 years haha.

[Clocats]

Anyone else think that Justin asked his drug dealer "friend" to have Monty killed in jail? He met up with him and agreed to sell for him indefinitely for a favor. Since that guy had just gotten out of jail, it's reasonable to think he still had connections and could have someone on the inside kill Monty. 

[Chicken Wing]

If memory serves (and it usually doesn't) I think it was revealed that the favor Justin asked of Seth was to make the other dealer Justin met up with on Homecoming night disappear, so Justin could say he was with Clay and the dealer wouldn't be around to contradict it. Unless I have my timeline confused. But either way I don't think Justin would or could have someone killed. He's troubled but he's not a bad guy.

[tennisgurl]

This was a really weird season, honestly. There were some parts I liked, some parts I disliked, and some parts that I really hated. I actually liked season two more than I think some people did, because while it had a lot of boring trail stuff and some really wonky plot developments and ret-cons, it had a lot of strong character development for a lot of the We Tried to Get Justice League, and some really great emotional moments. While this season also had some   good character stuff, it got bogged down by a lot of melodrama and too much time was spent on Ani and Bryce and not enough spent on the characters that I actually like and care about. 

I wont go into it too much, because I already talked about it, but I never really liked Ani, and never understood what her purpose on the show was, besides narrating and mooning over Bryce, of all people. So Alex's dad really just sat there and listened to this random teenager ramble on and on about her classmates, obviously lying through her teeth, for what reason? On the off chance that she is involved in a massive cover up to keep his son from going to jail for murder? 

Speaking of the murder, I think the whole murder mystery idea was flawed to begin with. The show, while certainly dramatic, did usually try to stick to issues that actual teens would deal with, and I dont think most teens are regularly dealing with murders and cover ups and frame jobs. It also made the whole "we have to get justice" message of the show rather hazy, considering everything that everyone has now done. Yeah before this they all did crappy things, but they did try to own up to their mistakes and take responsibility. 

There were good things though. While I thought the Bryce stuff was rather off, his mom was a really compelling character, and her grief over her son, even knowing what he did and who he was, was really complex and even heartbreaking. The episode with Mrs. Baker was a real highlight, especially when she met with Mrs. Walker and they bonded over their dead children. 

I think that Tyler had the best story, even if everyone hiding what he almost did was a consistently terrible idea. He clearly needs a TON of mental help that they are just not capable of giving him, no matter how much they clearly care about him. That being said, his recovery was really strong, and I think the message that you never know who a survivor might be and what people are going through was one of the strongest messages of the season, and the show in general. 

I think that ended up being kind of the point of the Jess story, that rape culture and the trauma it creates needs action and intense shake ups of the system, like at the football  game, but it also needs space for people to heal, and tell their story, and its hard to listen to people when everyone is yelling. Like, poor Jess was still reeling that she didn't catch on that her friend was dealing with sexual assault (a possibility that it was clear never even occurred to her or anyone in their activist club) when she found out that her own damn boyfriend is also a survivor of sexual assault, several times over, despite spending all of this time talking about healing and rape culture with him. You just dont know whats happening in someones life. 

Speaking of, poor poor Justin. He went through so much awful stuff, through no fault of his own. No wonder he became such a mess, I think its telling that as soon as he started developing some actually positive relationships, like with Clay, he so quickly became  a much better person. Still very troubled, and his ride or die friendship tendencies still cause him problems, but he does so painfully mean well  these days. I kind of wondered if something like that happened to him on the street, but hearing him confirm it was just so heartbreaking. Much like last season, he and Clay and their relationship was one of my favorite parts of the season, and I think one of the reasons I ended up getting so frustrated with Ani was because she was with Clay so often, and it took up quality Clay/Justin bonding time. I hope that he can get some real help now that the Jensons know that he is still using, he clearly needs more help than just his friends can give him.

So looks like Monty's secret kind of boyfriend might throw a wrench into everything, because he has some attachment to the guy, for whatever reason. Monty deserved to be in jail, but I do feel bad that he died. Too bad his dad cant go to jail too, and that this town apparently has so little in the way of social services. 

Probably for the best that there is only one more season. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by tennisgurl

[truthaboutluv]

So I've made it to Episode 7 and knowing that I have six more episodes of this shit fest is pure torture. If it wasn't for the fact that I'm a sucker for a mystery so I have to know what happened to the asshole, I'd stop watching. 

I love the fact that in the episode that's supposed to shine a light on Clay's potential guilt, the people who look the most guilty are Alex (who is clearly a ball of psychotic rage waiting to explode), Justin (who Jessica clearly lied about being with after Homecoming per Alex calling her out on it) and Ani who basically lies through her fucking teeth about damn near everything. 

The best moment of that episode was Justin telling Ani to go fuck herself. Seriously, where did this chick come from, why is she here and why did the writers think we, or hell me, would give a fuck about her.

It's like they decided they had to have a new narrator since Hannah's completely gone and figured some random newbie that pops up out of nowhere and inserts herself into everyone's life, was the best option. It wasn't. Because once again, at this point I have zero investment in this character and I just find her annoying as fuck. 

Also, so I guess one of the continuing messages of this show is that teenage girls will always go for the assholes, no matter what. Hannah still wanted the asshole who allowed her to be slut shamed and lied about fucking her, Jessica is back with the guy who stood by while his friend raped her and lied about it and still considered said guy his best friend until he didn't.

And there's Ani, with the predatory assholes who raped a bunch of girls in his club house, including his own girlfriend, raped girls when they were passed out, in a pool, etc. Oh but he has "pain" and "we are not the sum of our worst actions". Even when one is a rich entitled asshole who actually never really paid for said crimes.

But hey, apparently the sex was good...Awesome. And you know what, whatever. But can we move away from the tired plot line of Clay's of course being into said girl, so we have to go down the Clay is apparently the worse because he judges people narrative.

 Again, why should I give a fuck about Ani? Or am I supposed to dislike her. Because I really, really do and her sucking up so much screentime is making it really hard for me to get through this season. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Stiggs]

On 8/27/2019 at 2:16 PM, Last Time Lord said:

Finished the season late last night/early this morning. There is a lot to process. 

Alex’s dad totally knows. 

Hearing Ani telling the story of what happened, while seeing what actually happened was very chilling.

I’m not sure I believe Monty is dead since we didn’t see a body. Unless they purposely didn’t show it due to the past two seasons facing controversy after having something graphic on this TV-MA Rated show. 

Tyler’s actor should get several award nominations at the very least for is performance when he told Clay, alone

I was half expecting Alex’s dad (Lucifer!) to arrest him as the finale. He figured it out and I really, really thought he was going to “do the right thing” - but Mom Alex probably would have fIipped. I want to watch season 4 JUST to see how that works out. 

Still think Briscoe and Logan (or Green) would have had Alex behind bars for second degree murder within a few days, lol. 

I could watch the Clay and Tyler hug on a loop. Maybe my favorite moment of the season. I give both actors credit for that scene - very well done. 

I love Justin but cannot take another season of him failing at recovery. I want him to have a senior year without a drug debt. 

Also, Clay’s dad was in some 90s movies I loved (With Honors, Alive, Kicking & Screaming) and I might still have a crush, even in the Dad sweater. Maybe ditto for Tyler’s dad. And Jess’ dad.