Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[Velocity23]

2 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Yeah, I wasn't really buying that "family" thing either. I think JH will be pretty easygoing, but I think KC and KM will be competing for screen time. Just a feeling - I'm already getting original Charmed vibes (when Shannen Doherty and Alyssa Milano reportedly clashed behind-the scenes). But I hope I'm wrong.

I dont think it really will be a competition. Because it seems that they stick the two canaries together like they are one unit. 

[Chaser]

There was a lot of word salad in that interview. I’ve read and reread the Laurel/BS/E2 answer and I got nothing. The interviewer asking about the changes to the 3 characters and KC only hyping the Dinah/Laurel relationship is not surprising. 

Also, “female woman” lol

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

JH: "I think it's an important show to have right now and, um, I think it would be good for women. I think it would be good for men to see women in this position... We feel really good about it."

Why is she talking like the CW doesn’t already have two superhero shows with female title characters and an ensemble show with a defacto female lead? I’m surprised JH/KC didn’t incorporate “hashtag feminism“ somehow. 

The rest was the typical cliche-filled word salad I expected from these two. No wonder they had Kat doing separate interviews. 
 

Also, isn’t Dinah Lance the one with that sings in the comics, not Dinah Drake? 

Edited January 18, 2020 by lemotomato

[Velocity23]

I am just laughing that Juliana think Arrowverse was destroyed. When Arrowverse is basically used for shows that became spinoffs and are taking place in the same universe. 

[Featherhat]

Even if there has been tension on set I'm surprised they haven't done an interview with all three of them yet, unless it's going to be a post ep one. Unless it's already so bad it's not worth it. (Mostly joking) I guess it's more to do with GA and the Canaries as two separate groups. I have to say, Kat comes across a lot more coherent and articulate than JH and KC. 

If girlpower! is all they have then it's not going to get them very far with Supergirl, Batwoman, LOT and now Stargirl in the Arrowverse. They're going to have to find another hook as well, which might be the FTA gang. 

So Dinah's soulful and arty now and Laurel's "in the driver's seat". Yeah if it gets picked up that's where the Mia vs Laurel BTS and fandom stuff will come in. I still don't think they need both older Canaries but I guess they can play off each other as contrasting mentors and there's a spare for the early season death.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

Neither JH or KC come across as particularly bright or articulate people. This is evidenced in most of their word salad interviews and a propensity to have no idea what is going on (this is not even considering the delusional head canons).

I think it was a solid decision to have the very well spoken and media savvy KM do her interview separately. She can provide the appropriate sound bytes for people who actually read and understand interviews and expect a certain level of coherency.

The other two can throw their word salad at their less demanding fanbase. All bases covered!

[Chaser]

If it gets picked up, SDCC is going to be lol. 

[Aeryn13]

Well, if it gets picked up, they could still on some level retool it based on possible feedback on what works/doesn`t work. Laurel 5.0 (or whatever version we`re on here) will never get dropped because Katie Cassidy will never get dropped but who knows what will happen.

When Arrow started, Oliver was a loner and Laurel back then was pretty clearly supposed to be leading lady and "the one" for him. Yet Diggle and Felicity, the strongest supporting characters, ultimately ended up as leads in an OT3 Arrow trio. Who knows how Green Arrow and Canaries would ultimately go.  

[way2interested]

 

[Josh371982]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, if it gets picked up, they could still on some level retool it based on possible feedback on what works/doesn`t work. Laurel 5.0 (or whatever version we`re on here) will never get dropped because Katie Cassidy will never get dropped but who knows what will happen.

When Arrow started, Oliver was a loner and Laurel back then was pretty clearly supposed to be leading lady and "the one" for him. Yet Diggle and Felicity, the strongest supporting characters, ultimately ended up as leads in an OT3 Arrow trio. Who knows how Green Arrow and Canaries would ultimately go.  

Hopefully JH and KC being phased out lol and William and Connor get bigger roles. To solve the Canary problem, replace Laurel and Dinah with Zoe and maybe the new Character Bianca OR Sara Diggle 

[way2interested]

ETA: Just in case anyone was on pins and needles wondering, lol

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by way2interested

[way2interested]

There's also an interview with JH in the link

https://www.hypable.com/green-arrow-and-the-canaries-juliana-harkavy/

Quote

“There hasn’t been crime in Star City for 20 years.”

This should, basically, be the city’s motto with how much we hear of it. But it’s true, and things change in 2040, prompting this journey to begin. Before Star City meets a similar fate to that of the Arrow season 7 flash-forwards, someone assembles a team to prevent it, partially for herself and partially for Oliver’s legacy as Star City’s savior to continue on.

When one of Mia’s friends is kidnapped, it’s the beginning of the decline, which everyone wants to stop, as the city remembers Oliver for saving them and eradicating crime. (And let’s just say, someone is perfectly aware of everything that’s set to happen to Star City in the coming years.)

Why are Laurel Lance and Dinah Drake in 2040?

 

As the promotional photos released by the CW reveal, yes, Laurel and Dinah are young in 2040. The reason they are both there, and not in the present day, is addressed, though I would not go as far as to say it’s answered. For someone, it’s a big question mark, leading to a mystery that will surely be explored throughout the first season of Green Arrow and the Canaries.

There are certain things about Laurel and Dinah that have been impacted by “Crisis on Infinite Earths,” but their relationship is not one of them. Honestly, for me, the strongest part of the episode was the friendship that Dinah and Laurel share, and how that has and continues to bring them together as the Canaries. We haven’t seen much of their development on-screen, so it’ll be nice to really see how these two have gotten in front of their past and become the best of friends (which, as you’ll see below, was not what Juliana Harkavy expected).

Mia’s new life

 

In this life, Mia has everything she thought she wanted. She’s a Star City socialite, known as the daughter of the city’s hero. The Mia of this reality is very similar to how her father was before he embarked on the Queen’s Gambit. With Felicity as a caring parent throughout her life, she’s a little more put together, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t just as lost.

Just because Mia gets her memories back, don’t think she’s giving up on the socialite life in Star City. She’s very torn between her two worlds, which is an internal struggle that begins to show itself during this hour.

However, she does have a few familiar faces around her in this new life. Most importantly, her brother, William. They’re closer than ever after spending their lives together. There is a really great moment between them in the episode that I believe will make people happy.

The ring on Mia’s finger in the above photo has certainly captured a lot of attention since being released. And while I can’t say what it is about, I will say that much of Mia’s story during this episode relies on the reason it’s on her finger.

The ‘Green Arrow and the Canaries’ team

 

Honestly, Laurel, Dinah, and Mia don’t come together as a team right away. There’s a lot of tension, particularly between Laurel and Mia, as their ways of dealing with things clash. Dinah is the mediator for the team, helping Mia and Laurel to understand each other, as she already has a great relationship with Laurel and begins to have one with Mia (as she’s much more understanding and patient than Laurel is).

I think it’s a very realistic way of handling these three very different women coming together in order to save the city, just as we saw struggles when Diggle and Felicity (and everyone else) joined Oliver on his mission. It wouldn’t be right if they fit together perfectly from the start, but the episode truly shows what a great team the three of them will make if given the chance.

‘Green Arrow and the Canaries’ / ‘Arrow’ season 8, episode 9 spoiler-free review

 

I had expectations for the Arrow spin off, Green Arrow and the Canaries, and wow, were they met. The episode felt so alive, the characters were reinvigorated, and I’m particularly fond of the bond between Dinah, Laurel, and Mia already. In this post-crisis world, it’s easy to assume that the Arrow season 7 and 8 flash-forwards were for nothing, but that is absolutely not the case. Things from that world are incorporated into this one in a way that is surprising, exciting, and unusual for the Arrow-verse (if we’re being honest).

I’m very exciting to see where this will take these characters and the Arrow-verse at large. How will Green Arrow and the Canaries, set in the future, be tied into the present day shows? It’s something that will have definitely have to be explored if the series gets picked up.

Fans of the Canaries and fans of the 2040 crew will both be happy, as there’s a great mix between them, as Dinah and Laurel have to start becoming intertwined with the future world in which they’re currently living. That said, it’s very clear that this show revolves around three leading ladies, not just one, so it’ll exciting to actually see Mia, Laurel, and Dinah get their time in the spotlight.

One criticism I have of the episode, which I’m hoping will be resolved in the Arrow series finale, is we don’t learn what happened to Felicity in this world. We saw her approach the Monitor in the old world and go through a portal, but since the future is different, why isn’t she with Mia and William? It was a glaring issue, for me, that they didn’t even bring it up in the episode.

 

[apinknightmare]

Quote

and someone owns a bar called The Fishnet.

How cringe!

[insomniadreams88]

10 minutes ago, way2interested said:

There's also an interview with JH in the link

https://www.hypable.com/green-arrow-and-the-canaries-juliana-harkavy/

With Felicity as a caring parent throughout her life, she’s a little more put together

Maybe it’s just me, but the writer’s phrasing here annoys me. Felicity was a caring parent in the pre-Crisis timeline, too!

[Josh371982]

The problem is Laurel and Dinah already in the past had more screentime than I wanted to have and more than i could stand of them especially Dinah. 

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe it’s just me, but the writer’s phrasing here annoys me. Felicity was a caring parent in the pre-Crisis timeline, too!

To be fair to him in this context, he meant that because of Felicity this Mia's more put together than pre-Gambit Oliver because that's the parallel they're drawing for them, which is true.

Edited January 18, 2020 by way2interested

[Starfish35]

29 minutes ago, way2interested said:

To be fair to him in this context, he meant that because of Felicity this Mia's more put together than pre-Gambit Oliver because that's the parallel they're drawing for them, which is true.

Yes, I took it as contrasting Felicity’s parenting of Mia with Moira’s and Robert’s parenting of Oliver.

[Trisha]

Huh, Carla is usually super positive about screeners but this sounds ... not. 

 

[Aeryn13]

So because this back-door Pilot airs before the Finale and the Finale will resolve whatever ending Felicity and Oliver might get, they deal with this in the backdoor Pilot by not dealing with it? They are not even mentioning where Felicity is because they can`t/don`t want to spoil things? That will still be awkward as hell.

[Featherhat]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So because this back-door Pilot airs before the Finale and the Finale will resolve whatever ending Felicity and Oliver might get, they deal with this in the backdoor Pilot by not dealing with it? They are not even mentioning where Felicity is because they can`t/don`t want to spoil things? That will still be awkward as hell.

Yup.  I think they'd do that anyway even if there wasn't a BDP because they've only got EBR for one episode and SA's contract was for nine. Plus they're not going to give away a (potential) alternative/parallel dimension/ascension/afterlife reunion until the last minute. 

So Dinah owns The Fishnet in the present or the future? I'm guessing the present but I assume they get stuck in the future somehow so it won't be a regular thing if it goes to series? Or can they travel at will with a LOT portal thingy?

From what we know or can guess, I think I'm going to have to sleep on it when I see some of the changes to the events and characters so I don't blame her. I kind of hope I like it so even if it doesn't end up being a show I like the thought of where Mia, William and co end up.

[Velocity23]

6 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Yup.  I think they'd do that anyway even if there wasn't a BDP because they've only got EBR for one episode and SA's contract was for nine. Plus they're not going to give away a (potential) alternative/parallel dimension/ascension/afterlife reunion until the last minute. 

So Dinah owns The Fishnet in the present or the future? I'm guessing the present but I assume they get stuck in the future somehow so it won't be a regular thing if it goes to series? Or can they travel at will with a LOT portal thingy?

From what we know or can guess, I think I'm going to have to sleep on it when I see some of the changes to the events and characters so I don't blame her. I kind of hope I like it so even if it doesn't end up being a show I like the thought of where Mia, William and co end up.

Since apparently Dinah lives in amazing place i am guessing they staying for good. 

[insomniadreams88]

I’ve been expecting them to be super vague about Felicity in 809, but I just hope they properly acknowledge her and don’t make everything about Oliver being her father. 

[way2interested]

If they don't answer about why two of the three title characters are even there, my head would hurt too 😅

[Chaser]

If Dinah has a bar, how long have they been in the future before getting Mia?

Is this the hype writer who kept talking up Laurel and Oliver in the first couple of episodes? That big emotional scene in 8x01 that turned out to be a big nothing scene?

Edited January 18, 2020 by Chaser

[Primal Slayer]

So Dinah gets a new personality, Mia will probably dial with her former brooding self and socialite self, and Laurel will still be primarily E2 personality....and overall they seem to have the Prue/Piper/Phoebe dynamic going on.

 

[calliope1975]

Quote

Dinah owns a bar called The Fishnet.

If this is the crack wit of this BDP, then I see we're working with Arrow's typical quality of writing. I'm kinda looking forward to it in a WTF, But Why? sort of way.  

[Trini]

Sounds like the spinoff is already picked picked up, from all this press coverage.

[Primal Slayer]

26 minutes ago, Trini said:

Sounds like the spinoff is already picked picked up, from all this press coverage.

They definitely want to build hype for it. I just wonder what will they look at as a success? Ratings? Twitter trending? Good reviews? The Wayward sisters got decent rating/reviews I think and still didn't get picked up.

[apinknightmare]

They’re trying to spin off a show that can barely get a million viewers anymore. TPTB can’t possibly care about ratings. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by apinknightmare

[Featherhat]

Some random Wayward Sisters comparisons are one reason I thought it might be unofficially dead even before airing last week: female team spin off, popular as it's going to get for a spin off of this show, in competition with another similar show that went straight to series...

If it wasn't picked up last week I don't think it's been ordered yet and they're waiting to see how it does. It can't be ratings because yeah, Arrow launching a direct spin off (as opposed to Dig becoming GL and going to the HBO Max show or something) won't be about the numbers on the CW overnights. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Featherhat

[Velocity23]

I feel like the 100 spinoff and the Arrow spinoff will be competiting for the spot on the line up. Both are backdoor pilots. 

[tv echo]

ETA: I think that one of the reasons Superman & Lois was already picked up for series order is that MG & Co. already know what they want to do for next season's crossover and that TH's Superman will be involved. Since GA & the Canaries is set in the future, they probably won't be in the next crossover.

Ha, ha - I bet that Laurel (at least one version) finally achieves her lifelong dream of living in the Queen Mansion with a member of the Queen family 😉 ...

Edited January 19, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Question: if the kidnapped person is one of Mia's friends, then why does the 809 synopsis say "Laurel and Dinah are tracking a kidnapping victim with direct ties to Mia and they need her help"? Why would they know about the kidnapping before Mia? And why would they care if they're from the past?

Potential candidates for Mia's fiance (assuming that the ring on her finger means that she's engaged):  

• Too Obvious: Connor
• MG-Style Surprise Twist: JJ
• Sacrificial Red Shirt: Some rich guy we've never seen before, maybe played by Chad Duell. (Spec: He turns out to be a bad guy and Mia is forced to kill him. Trauma galore.)

Edited January 19, 2020 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder how Oliver dying made Star City into a crime less city for 20 years....criminals respect his sacrifice that much? Something they've only been told about?

[apinknightmare]

Maybe the new earth’s Star City just happened to be less of a garbage can for exactly as long as it took Mia to get to the age where she could suit up. 

[Velocity23]

 

 

[CabotCove]

Quote

Dinah owns a bar called The Fishnet.

LOL WOW, Juliana's Dinah has that too and she sings, pretty much getting lots of Black Canary elements. Paralleling with the BOP movie Dinah. She even has the real comic name.  So Katie Cassidy's character just exists huh, just there for decoration.... And she still signed up. 

 

Quote

Fans of the Canaries and fans of the 2040 crew will both be happy, as there’s a great mix between them, as Dinah and Laurel have to start becoming intertwined with the future world in which they’re currently living. 

LMAO, this frankenstein patchwork is so gonna work..🤔🙄

[Chaser]

9 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

 

 

Given that OUAT was cancelled midway through S7, I don’t think that’s a good thing.

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

So Katie Cassidy's character just exists huh, just there for decoration.... And she still signed up. 

Nah, it sounds like she gets the plot relevance and more Screentime than Dinah. If anything Dinah's the one there for no reason and they threw in nonsensical comics stuff to her to try to keep her relevant in the middle of one character who drives the plot and another whose character arc is the focal point.

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

 

 

That’s not a good indicator of quality.

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Given that OUAT was cancelled midway through S7, I don’t think that’s a good thing.

Yeah, and Tvline normally likes Laurel and the Canary stuff, ouch.

[Velocity23]

Honestly it sounds like Juliana was added last second by Marc and Beth after the CW probably pushed KC for the spinoff. 

[insomniadreams88]

I feel like I’m still not hearing anything about why Laurel and Dinah are around other than their actresses want to continue playing the characters/the network wants to keep them around?

The victim is tied to Mia. Mia has been training to be the new Green Arrow and will get those memories back. Mia lives in 2040. But why are present-day Laurel and Dinah the ones now in the future teaming up with her? Right now, it sounds like anyone could have taken those roles. Barry could’ve run to the future/Sara could’ve taken the Waverider/etc. and given Mia her memories — and maybe the others — and then returned to the present/time-traveling and left FTA to be the heroes. 

I'm sure there will be some weak reason for it — and we’ll probably see Dinah and Laurel acting like they were super close to Oliver/mourned him/whatever while talking about him like he’s dead but remaining vague about his fate — but I can see why Superman & Lois was ordered to series already and this wasn’t — and we haven’t seen more than a 20-second promo. 

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Nah, it sounds like she gets the plot relevance and more Screentime than Dinah. If anything Dinah's the one there for no reason and they threw in nonsensical comics stuff to her to try to keep her relevant in the middle of one character who drives the plot and another whose character arc is the focal point.

I've read so much stuff about this episode over the past couple of days that I can't remember where I saw this but I could've sworn I saw a write-up where the reviewer mentioned that it was unclear why one of the characters was in 2040 Star City and that they thought that mystery might span the first season if it gets picked up - but maybe I'm misremembering. Since Mia and Dinah have places to live (and I guess Dinah owns that stupid fish bar) maybe Laurel is the one they can't figure out why she's there (which...lol) - since it doesn't seem like she has an established place to live. 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I've read so much stuff about this episode over the past couple of days that I can't remember where I saw this but I could've sworn I saw a write-up where the reviewer mentioned that it was unclear why one of the characters was in 2040 Star City and that they thought that mystery might span the first season if it gets picked up - but maybe I'm misremembering. Since Mia and Dinah have places to live (and I guess Dinah owns that stupid fish bar) maybe Laurel is the one they can't figure out why she's there (which...lol) - since it doesn't seem like she has an established place to live. 

I think it was that the mystery is why present Laurel and Dinah are there in the future as it's never elaborated on why and that the why would span the first season, but maybe I could be misremembering, I only really skimmed a bunch of this stuff. By "plot relevance" I just meant that from JH and KC's own words it sounds like it's Laurel and Mia who are the ones who are driving decisions while Dinah's "trying to be mediator, " and that the Hypable guy even later admitted that Laurel has more to do than Dinah even though "all three are co-leads!!!1!1"

[tv echo]

https://www.hypable.com/green-arrow-and-the-canaries-juliana-harkavy/

Quote

Why are Laurel Lance and Dinah Drake in 2040?
As the promotional photos released by the CW reveal, yes, Laurel and Dinah are young in 2040. The reason they are both there, and not in the present day, is addressed, though I would not go as far as to say it’s answered. For someone, it’s a big question mark, leading to a mystery that will surely be explored throughout the first season of Green Arrow and the Canaries.

I wouldn't count on any explanation making sense.

Edited January 19, 2020 by tv echo

[Chaser]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I've read so much stuff about this episode over the past couple of days that I can't remember where I saw this but I could've sworn I saw a write-up where the reviewer mentioned that it was unclear why one of the characters was in 2040 Star City and that they thought that mystery might span the first season if it gets picked up - but maybe I'm misremembering. Since Mia and Dinah have places to live (and I guess Dinah owns that stupid fish bar) maybe Laurel is the one they can't figure out why she's there (which...lol) - since it doesn't seem like she has an established place to live. 

It’s in the hypable write up. 

Something I missed the first time I read it: they said that someone is aware of what’s going to happen in Star City in the next couple years.

20 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Honestly it sounds like Juliana was added last second by Marc and Beth after the CW probably pushed KC for the spinoff. 

KC always seems to be paired with one other actor, I get the impression that’s what JH was brought in for. Mia has the FTA crew.

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Barry could’ve run to the future/Sara could’ve taken the Waverider/etc. and given Mia her memories — and maybe the others — and then returned to the present/time-traveling and left FTA to be the heroes. 

Dang it, now I'm mad it isn't Sara for a pilot cameo, since that would have made way more sense (Sara was a Paragon who automatically remembered everything, she and Mia bonded in the crossover, she personally knew Oliver and saw his sacrifice firsthand, etc.)

Edited January 19, 2020 by way2interested

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I think it was that the mystery is why present Laurel and Dinah are there in the future as it's never elaborated on why and that the why would span the first season, but maybe I could be misremembering, I only really skimmed a bunch of this stuff. By "plot relevance" I just meant that from JH and KC's own words it sounds like it's Laurel and Mia who are the ones who are driving decisions while Dinah's "trying to be mediator, " and that the Hypable guy even later admitted that Laurel has more to do than Dinah even though "all three are co-leads!!!1!1"

Oh yeah, that's kind of what I meant. That Laurel (assuming she's the one who's stuck there and doesn't know why, since Dinah has a home and seemingly a bar) would be driving the decisions because she's trying to figure it out/get back to wherever she's supposed to be. 

 

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I think it was that the mystery is why present Laurel and Dinah are there in the future as it's never elaborated on why and that the why would span the first season, but maybe I could be misremembering, I only really skimmed a bunch of this stuff. By "plot relevance" I just meant that from JH and KC's own words it sounds like it's Laurel and Mia who are the ones who are driving decisions while Dinah's "trying to be mediator, " and that the Hypable guy even later admitted that Laurel has more to do than Dinah even though "all three are co-leads!!!1!1"

Wouldn't they all be aware of what could happen to Star City in a couple of years if they have their pre-Crisis memories? Although I guess that would just be Mia since technically Old Dinah and Old Laurel wouldn't have gotten there yet. 

[tv echo]

Bamford tweeted (and Beth retweeted) the term #Canarrow, both apparently ignorant of the fact that this term was the ship name used by Sara & Oliver shippers - Matt Mitovich responded as follows...

Then KM responded to Matt's tweet...

Edited January 19, 2020 by tv echo