Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[apinknightmare]

Regarding the comments about which Laurel survived in the Spoilers Only thread, I can’t imagine why it would matter - they were treated like they were interchangeable for the most part anyway. The Laurel in the preview for 8x09 seemed nicer than regular E-2 Laurel - I will laugh if they Crisised out her snark, the one thing that differentiated her from E-1 Laurel and made her slightly more fun to watch lol. 

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Regarding the comments about which Laurel survived in the Spoilers Only thread, I can’t imagine why it would matter - they were treated like they were interchangeable for the most part anyway. The Laurel in the preview for 8x09 seemed nicer than regular E-2 Laurel - I will laugh if they Crisised out her snark, the one thing that differentiated her from E-1 Laurel and made her slightly more fun to watch lol. 

That's one of their favorite parts of the character, IF they merge the two then she probably just knows how to be sympathetic.

And guess Quentin is alive again? 

 

I feel like they'll give us a cheap answer like "I was already on E1 so I just came back with E1 people but E2 isnt my E2 so I'm just an old E2 person with no real Earth"

[Featherhat]

4 hours ago, way2interested said:

Ah, sorry. I just meant that as a hyperbole for the various shows they always greenlight or option XD. Like, with picking up Superman and Walker because of their bigger brands (and with Stargirl thrust on them) and other pilots they might try to push to diversify their lineups, this spinoff might be too much, especially if it ends up getting a mixed reception and with those apparent bts issues.

If it was always going to be in competition with Superman for the available Arrowverse space then they might just as well have not ordered it at all and given Arrow another wrap up ep because it was never going to win out over that. And we know Superman was in development before they announced GA&TC. I kind of feel they're not very high on it but that's admittedly with no other info than the fact that it wasn't ordered in the first wave.

With Laurel I think they'll keep her snark and whatever version of Laurel she ends up as doesn't really matter as they'll probably give her an entirely new backstory anyway. 

 

[Chaser]

Based on the promo and episode stills, I think they are retooling L2 to be the serious, experienced voice and Dinah to be the laid back, cool one for the spin off. 

[Starfish35]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Based on the promo and episode stills, I think they are retooling L2 to be the serious, experienced voice and Dinah to be the laid back, cool one for the spin off. 

So basically they’re Zelda and Hilda to Mia’s Sabrina? 😂

(The Melissa Joan Hart version, not the Netflix version.)

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So basically they’re Zelda and Hilda to Mia’s Sabrina? 😂

(The Melissa Joan Hart version, not the Netflix version.)

LOL honestly, yeah. 

 

[way2interested]

19 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

If it was always going to be in competition with Superman for the available Arrowverse space then they might just as well have not ordered it at all and given Arrow another wrap up ep because it was never going to win out over that. And we know Superman was in development before they announced GA&TC. I kind of feel they're not very high on it but that's admittedly with no other info than the fact that it wasn't ordered in the first wave.

Idk what the bts deals for each of the EPs involved were, though, and I don't think it was necessarily always a 1-to-1 competition. Like, the rumors of a Superman show were spinning the almost 4 years ago when he showed up on Supergirl and wasn't picked up until the old Flash showrunner got put on it, and CW clearly originally wanted a 2040 spinoff because they cast KM in Arrow in the first place back for s7, so I don't think it's a competition, more like a scheduling and priority issue because they were both officially greenlit around the same time, and that was even before they got forced to air Stargirl (which partially fits the old rumors of CW wanting a new female-led DC show, Stargirl might have actually ended up taking GA&C spot more than Superman did).

Plus, if MG was to be believed, SA wouldn't have shown up anyway for 809 because SA was only contracted for 9 episodes.

15 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

So basically they’re Zelda and Hilda to Mia’s Sabrina? 😂

(The Melissa Joan Hart version, not the Netflix version.)

Don't taint one of my favorite childhood shows!

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

Based on the promo and episode stills, I think they are retooling L2 to be the serious, experienced voice 

So basically reverting her back to E1 LL as BC, who always thought of herself as a serious and experienced vigilante.

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

So basically reverting her back to E1 LL as BC, who always thought of herself as a serious and experienced vigilante.

That’s why we got that scene in the crossover that made no sense!

At least whatever version this Laurel is, there presumably won’t be that awful not-deathbed confession. We’ll maybe get something like E1 LL went off to find herself after her near-death — and Lance was at her side in the hospital, not Oliver — and somehow found a meta power because why not? Then she just came back around Season 7 to help Felicity (to keep that connection with Mia in the possible spinoff) and none of her evil deeds happened so they can continue to ignore them and bonus, that fries/milkshake scene for Laurel/Dinah happened since it originally happened with E1 Laurel/Nyssa. 

actually, that was probably more thought than they’ll put into Laurel, so never mind. 

[Josh371982]

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

Based on the promo and episode stills, I think they are retooling L2 to be the serious, experienced voice and Dinah to be the laid back, cool one for the spin off. 

I would wonder if they have Mia be a little more like her mom in the way of Witty remarks and not being as broody but Mia is getting her memories back after Laurel gives them back to her so I dont know..... plus sorry Powers that be if you think DINAH AND LAUREL can be bought as those characters UGH why cant we get William and Connor instead of those lame-os

Edited January 16, 2020 by Josh371982

[tv echo]

'Crisis on Infinite Earths': Where Was Reverse-Flash? And Iris? Who Is Laurel Now? And More Burning Qs Answered
By Matt Webb Mitovich / January 15 2020, 1
https://tvline.com/2020/01/15/crisis-on-infinite-earths-burning-questions-answered-iris-missing-reverse-flash/

Quote

TVLine grabbed a few minutes with Arrowverse overlord Marc Guggenheim to run through those questions and many more.  Flip through TVLine’s handy “Burning ‘Crisis’ Questions Answered” gallery to see what he said, then zoom back here and react in the Comments section.
*  *  *
LEX LUTHOR REGARDED AS NOT JUST A GOOD GUY BUT ‘THE BEST GUY’ IS A FUN THING FOR SUPERGIRL TO PLAY WITH. WILL WE SEE OTHER RIPPLE EFFECTS? IS CONNOR STILL ADOPTED BY JOHN AND LYLA, WILL WE SEE BABY SARA IN 2020…?
“You won’t see Baby Sara in [Arrow] Episode 809 [airing Jan. 21], but we have absolutely talked about how if that [Green Arrow and the Canaries] backdoor pilot goes to series, what does Adult Baby Sara look like — including what we are going to refer to her as. [Laughs]
*  *  *
IS THE LAUREL IN ARROW‘S BACKDOOR PILOT, LIKE, A ‘MERGED COMPOSITE’ OF THE ORIGINAL AND HER EARTH-2 DOPPELGANGER?
“[Episodes] 809 and 810 [aka the series finale airing Jan. 28] will answer that question very definitively. You’ll learn which version of Laurel we have been left with in 809, and you will learn why that is the case in 810.”
*  *  *
SPEAKING OF LAUREL…. WHERE WERE SHE, AND IRIS, AND CISCO, AND MIA? ESPECIALLY IN ‘CRISIS’ PART 5?
“Maybe one day we will tell that story,” Guggenheim hedges, “but again, all of those actors need to be paid, and they need to be paid a crossover rate that is above and beyond their episodic rate. That forces us to make hard financial choices that unfortunately occasionally drive the creative choices.”

Edited January 16, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Transcribed from the video in this article...

'Crisis on Infinite Earths' introduces a major change for the CW's superhero shows
By Chancellor Agard January 14, 2020 
https://ew.com/tv/2020/01/14/crisis-on-infinite-earths-introduces-major-change-cws-superhero-shows/

-- MG: "I always felt, and Stephen Amell always felt, that Oliver's journey had to end with his death. Despite everything he'd done, the man he was before he became the Green Arrow, and the man he was when he was the Hood, you know, killing off so many people, we felt that there had to be an end to his journey that ended with, you know, some sort of recompense, but also recompense wrapped with a bit of redemption."

ETA: Then why doesn't E2 Laurel AKA Black Siren have to suffer some recompense for her murderous past? Her killings were even worse than Oliver's because she intentionally and cold-bloodedly murdered innocent people (like the building security guard, the girl in the garage, the cops, etc.). And what about Sara? She was a League assassin, but she gets to get a happy ending? I can't stand this double standard when it comes to Oliver versus everyone else. Oliver saved his city, the world and the multiverse, so I think he more than balanced the scales. He deserved a happy ending.

Edited January 16, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

We Have Questions! Marc Guggenheim on the 'Crisis' Cameo & Casualty
Damian Holbrook January 15, 2020
https://www.tvinsider.com/849033/crisis-on-infinite-earths-flash-ezra-miller-oliver-queen-death/ 

Quote

Oh it was a blast. But then, on the clip side of this fun moment, you go and kill Oliver two episodes before Arrow ends. 
That was always the plan. Ever since once the stars aligned and we knew that we were doing Crisis in Arrow's last year, we knew several things. We knew that Oliver had to die in Crisis, as we've been saying for a year now. And we also knew that it had to happen in the Arrow hour of the crossover. So we definitely created some interesting creative challenges for ourselves in terms of what the final two episodes would be, particularly the Arrow series finale. But those challenges really are creative opportunities.

So you come back and you have the Canaries episode...
Yeah, we come back with the Canaries. And actually, here's the thing, Stephen's deal was always for nine episodes. The CW asked us for a 10th episode and we realized that [an extra] episode could be a backdoor pilot, right? We were never going to have 10 episodes with Stephen. He was always going to be in nine episodes and then we were able to fill in that gap by doing a backdoor pilot. So it all kind of worked out quite nicely.

Can you give me a hint as to what the series finale would look like?
Ok, how do I do this without spoiling anything? So it wraps up a key number of storylines and it honors Oliver and the sacrifice he made. I guess...this is the thing I'll say: Once we knew that we were killing off Oliver in the Arrow hour of  the crossover, we knew that the series finale would be something of a coda and we knew how we were wrapping up the storylines, but I think what we were kind of lacking was a central theme. Then I was in the editing room on an episode, and I'm watching for the umpteenth time the [opening sequence] where Oliver always says, "I came home with only one goal...to save my city." And I realized, "Oh, that's the series finale." Oliver's sacrifice has allowed him to save the city.
...
So we end the show with the fulfillment of the mission that we've been stating in almost every episode since the very beginning. And once that piece fell into place, the whole finale coalesced around that central theme and I'm really, really proud of that. Beth Schwartz and I had a wonderful time writing it, James Bamford directed the crap out of it and all of the actors brought their A-game. And Emily Bett Rickards returns, which is really the only way we could have ended the series.

We've been finished with it for a while, it's been written for a few months now and it has stuck with me in a way that very few episodes we've done have. I hope people like it. It's an unconventional kind of series finale because a protagonist died two episodes earlier. But I think it's a very satisfying.

Edited January 16, 2020 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

I know the answer is “because comics”, but what kind of logic is there to merging E2 LL with someone who’s been dead and rotting for 4 years? I understand getting memories from a live doppelgänger that doesn’t exist anymore because of Crisis, but... dead is dead. And why only her? We saw on Flash that E2 had lots of E1 counterparts, so do they all get extra memories? 

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Transcribed from the video in this article...

'Crisis on Infinite Earths' introduces a major change for the CW's superhero shows
By Chancellor Agard January 14, 2020 
https://ew.com/tv/2020/01/14/crisis-on-infinite-earths-introduces-major-change-cws-superhero-shows/

-- MG: "I always felt, and Stephen Amell always felt, that Oliver's journey had to end with his death. Despite everything he'd done, the man he was before he became the Green Arrow, and the man he was when he was the Hood, you know, killing off so many people, we felt that there had to be an end to his journey that ended with, you know, some sort of recompense, but also recompense wrapped with a bit of redemption."

ETA: Then why doesn't E2 Laurel AKA Black Siren have to suffer some recompense for her murderous past? Her killings were even worse than Oliver's because she intentionally and cold-bloodedly murdered innocent people (like the building security guard, the girl in the garage, the cops, etc.). And what about Sara? She was a League assassin, but she gets to get a happy ending? I can't stand this double standard when it comes to Oliver versus everyone else. Oliver saved his city, the world and the multiverse, so I think he more than balanced the scales. He deserved a happy ending.

I`m happy that Oliver the hero leaves such a great legacy but I`m still holding out hope that Oliver the man finds some pocket of happiness with Felicity in the end. IMO that was more or less promised by the ending of Season 7 with Felicity and the Monitor. If they don`t pay that off in the Series Finale, it would be a really shitty move and end things on a needlessly dour note. It`s not a perfectly happy ending so they don`t have the "it would be unrealistic excuse". He and his loved ones for that matter still paid dearly over the course of the entire show. They at least owe us bittersweet here.    

[tv echo]

GH’S CHAD DUELL BOOKS PRIME-TIME ROLE
January 16, 2020 
https://www.soapoperadigest.com/content/ghs-chad-duell-books-prime-time-role/

Quote

Daytime Emmy winner Chad Duell will guest star on The CW series ARROW on Tuesday, January 21. “I had an awesome time; it was a great experience,” Duell tells Digest. Though he can’t reveal anything about that role he’ll be playing, Duell previews that it’s nothing like his Port Charles alter ego. “I loved being part of show,” he sums up.

Edited January 16, 2020 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

From what i understood from Marcs interviews is that Earth Prime encompasses the CW earths. So i am guessing no more doppelgangers. I also presume that the Earth  of Stargirl has nothing in common of E2 of pre-Crisis. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I know the answer is “because comics”, but what kind of logic is there to merging E2 LL with someone who’s been dead and rotting for 4 years? I understand getting memories from a live doppelgänger that doesn’t exist anymore because of Crisis, but... dead is dead. And why only her? We saw on Flash that E2 had lots of E1 counterparts, so do they all get extra memories? 

Who says she's the only one? Quentin appears to be alive, who knows what they'll do with Wells.

[Velocity23]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

Who says she's the only one? Quentin appears to be alive, who knows what they'll do with Wells.

Werent all Quentins dead though? 

[insomniadreams88]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Then why doesn't E2 Laurel AKA Black Siren have to suffer some recompense for her murderous past? Her killings were even worse than Oliver's because she intentionally and cold-bloodedly murdered innocent people (like the building security guard, the girl in the garage, the cops, etc.). And what about Sara? She was a League assassin, but she gets to get a happy ending? I can't stand this double standard when it comes to Oliver versus everyone else. Oliver saved his city, the world and the multiverse, so I think he more than balanced the scales. He deserved a happy ending.

Agreed. That’s why I expect them to use Crisis to erase E2 LL’s body count. And aren’t they going to add to Oliver’s in the finale? Didn’t SA tease Oliver killing a bunch of people then?

[apinknightmare]

44 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Werent all Quentins dead though? 

I can only imagine what E1 and E2 combined resurrected Quentin would be like, now with an aversion to birthdays, birthday cakes and with a strong desire to handcuff Laurel to the backseat of his car.

Edited January 16, 2020 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I can only imagine what E1 and E2 combined resurrected Quentin would be like, now with an aversion to birthdays, birthday cakes and with a strong desire to handcuff Laurel to the backseat of his car.

Maybe its Earth X Quentin. 

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Maybe its Earth X Quentin. 

Earth X LL was still alive and on E1 the last time we saw her. She should get merged into composite LL too. Makes more sense than dead E1 LL. 
 

And bringing Quentin Lance back  after spending all of 806 emphasizing how his death couldn’t be undone is so very Arrow. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, lemotomato said:

And bringing Quentin Lance back  after spending all of 806 emphasizing how his death couldn’t be undone is so very Arrow. 

On the other hand, MG and Beth keep saying that Oliver's death is going to stick....

[tv echo]

GENERAL HOSPITAL’s Chad Duell Previews His New Role on ARROW (EXCLUSIVE)
By Chris Eades January 16, 2020
https://www.soapsindepth.com/posts/general-hospital/chad-duell-previews-role-arrow 

Quote

Don’t miss GENERAL HOSPITAL star Chad Duell (Michael) doing a bit of moonlighting in primetime with a major guest-starring role on ARROW! He’ll be appearing in the episode “Green Arrow & the Canaries,” scheduled to air on The CW on Tuesday, Jan. 21, at 9 p.m. ET. “I had so much fun shooting ARROW,” Duell declared to Soaps In Depth.

Unfortunately, while the guest role on the superhero series allowed him to show off his Emmy-winning acting chops, Duell can’t reveal anything about who he’ll be playing or the plot of the episode. “Oh no,” he admitted, “it would definitely be a spoiler.” However, GH viewers will definitely not confuse this primetime part with his daytime role. “I can’t say anything about the character,” Duell teased, “but I can say fans will get to see a different side that they aren’t used to.”

ETA: Chad Duell plays the role of Michael Corinthos on General Hospital. Here's what Wikipedia says about this character...

Quote

The son of A. J. Quartermaine and Carly Corinthos, and adoptive son of mob boss Sonny Corinthos, Michael is raised at the center of a bitter battle between the Quartermaine and Corinthos family. The character's most significant storylines include his accidental shooting of Kate Howard, his own shooting and waking from a coma, and being sent to prison for the murder of his stepmother Claudia Zacchara where he was raped. Most recently, the character has embraced his biological roots. Michael spent the majority of his life trying to emulate his adoptive father, but has since matured into his own man.
*  *  *
Duell described his character as being very multi-layered, having a lot of baggage, but also a great heart. He says that Michael loves his family, and wants to make his father proud, which in Duell's eyes, is what makes the character so interesting; "He's very complex. He's got so many things going on at once... He's an awesome kid but he's had it very rough."[26] According to Duell, Michael is a tough kid who angers easily, who is torn between being a good guy, but is afraid to feel weak. "I like showing more sides to him. I want (to show) his heart more than his anger. I don’t want him to be one way."[22] According to Duell, Michael is "never just one way. There's always something behind everything." Duell's ability to bring complexity to Michael is what he believes led to the recast.[27] Duell described Michael as being "a very strong kid.…He's strong for his father, above all. He has thick enough skin to get through a lot of things."

So I'm guessing that Duell's role on Arrow is that of a villain.

Edited January 17, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

WHAT'S IN STORE FOR THE CW HEROES POST-"CRISIS"
by Erik Amaya | January 15, 2020 |
https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/whats-in-store-for-the-cw-heroes-post-crisis/

Quote

Though now united on one Earth, Guggenheim was quick to point out this new Earth is not the Earth-1 of Arrow, The Flash or Legends.

“It’s a completely different Earth,” he explained.

What that means in the long-term will be revealed as the individual shows move forward. ...
*  *  *
Arrow comes to its end later this month. Next week’s episode will be a backdoor pilot for Green Arrow & the Canaries – starring Katherine McNamara, Juliana Harkavy, and Katie Cassidy – while the episode after that will be the series finale. Guggenheim and showrunner Beth Schwartz declined to speak about the conclusion, but it will feature Emily Bett Rickards as Felicity Smoak.

For those with quick memories, Felicity was last seen in 2040, telling the Monitor (LaMonica Garrett) she was ready to be reunited with Oliver. Does he still live on some other plane of existence or will she also reach for the peace Oliver accepted at end of “Crisis?”

Edited January 17, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I think this writer's speculation about 809 is reasonable...

Katherine McNamara and ‘Green Arrow and the Canaries’
Bec Heim   January 15, 2020
https://filmdaily.co/news/green-arrow-and-the-canaries/

Quote

Given that Mia is Mia Queen rather than Mia Smoak in the new series, we can safely say yes. There will be changes to this timeline. While we’re still working what a post-Crisis landscape looks for our fave shows, we have a couple of theories.

One is that we believe that Mia and William (Ben Lewis) probably grew up together in this timeline. If not together-together, then the pair at least knew of each other. So we’re down for more Queen sibling antics. 

Another thing we’re sure is different is that Zoe Ramirez (Andrea Sixtos) is probably alive and well in this timeline. Digg (David Ramsey) and Rene (Rick Gonzalez) both seemed dedicated to making sure her death will not come to pass
*  *  *
Adding to that, we’re relatively certain that J.J. (Charlie Barnett) will probably not be a Deathstroke in this new timeline. In addition to J.J. being on the side of the angels, it also looks like we’re going to see an older Sara Diggle, whose existence was erased due to “Flashpoint” but was restored post-Crisis. 

Now whether or not Connor Hawke (Joseph David-Jones) will become part of the Michaels-Diggle family in the post-Crisis timeline remains uncertain at this stage. 

We’re also going to assume that whatever happened to Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) at the end of season seven of Arrow happened here too. (We’re still like 90% sure that Oliver is the Spectre still.) 
*  *  *
Multiversal travel may be off the table in this brave new Arrowverse, but we’re pretty sure that time travel is in play. We’re willing to bet good money that the two Canaries traveled from the past in order to secure Mia’s help. 

How they time travel in this theory? We have no idea. Maybe they had Barry (Grant Gustin) give them a lift. 
*  *  *
Also, who knows, maybe it was smooth sailing for Team Arrow post-Crisis. You shouldn’t talk about ladies ages like that.

Edited January 17, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Now I'm confused...

Edited January 17, 2020 by tv echo

[CabotCove]

Quote

Like, with picking up Superman and Walker because of their bigger brands (and with Stargirl thrust on them) 

Doubt it had to be thrust on them, Stargirl looks to be a Legacy show with a Teen Female lead with much higher production values than a typical CW superhero show and has a clear focus on what it is and wants to be. CW likely, gladly wanted the show, seems like a no brainer to pick it when offered.  Also is a fresh story and not just a reboot of what you already done for 8 years🙄. 

They got given something that looks far superior that their usual offerings. This is a show that will elevate their network and DC superhero slate, and they need it badly after  the #CrisisoninfiniteEarths dumpster fire. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by CabotCove

[way2interested]

30 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

Doubt it had to be thrust on them, Stargirl looks to be a Legacy show with a Teen Female lead with much higher production values than a typical CW superhero show and has a clear focus on what it is and wants to be. CW likely, gladly wanted the show, seems like a no brainer to pick it when offered.  Also is a fresh story and not just a reboot of what you already done for 8 years🙄. 

 

WarnerBros. pressed CW to take Stargirl because the DC streaming service is doing poorly and they want to try to increase subscriptions by having this dual airing deal for Stargirl. It's similar to how WB/Berlanti moved Supergirl to the CW because CBS wanted to drop it. Yes, I don't think it was a gun to their head scenario but I don't think it was "offered" more like "pushed" and "strongly suggested."

No idea if Stargirl will be all of those things since it isn't out yet, but bts for that show has been a mess, so maybe it does fit in well for the CW Arrowverse 😅. But then again, picking up these shows has less to do with quality of shows and about brands and demos, which is why so many networks and streaming services are greenlighting reboots, spinoffs, and remakes. Heck, Pedowitz was likely thinking of the tons of boxes 809 could check off on paper (Arrow brand, DC/Canaries brand, KM's brand, female demo, younger demo, etc.) before anyone wrote a word of the 809 script. 

[Featherhat]

15 hours ago, statsgirl said:

On the other hand, MG and Beth keep saying that Oliver's death is going to stick....

Who knows really. There are a million ways they could be "technically telling the truth" and still give Oliver a happier ending on screen (beyond the fact that there's definitely an afterlife in this verse) and have Olicity reunite and Oliver's death stick. Although SA has also said guest spots are possible......

If they take out Felicity going to reunite with Oliver wherever because we were already expecting that well they shouldn't have tied Felicity's journey up like that in the first place. They wanted a hopeful end for Felicity and Olicity in case they didn't get EBR back and I think the spirit of that will stick. IIRC Beth has said the portal will come in to play, it doesn't have to mean what we assumed it did.

With think SA wrapped last with EBR and that the last scene is between two people and is probably them. Whilst that could be a memory/flashback for a bittersweet mourning or goodbye "I'll be here waiting when you die" scene, I'm guessing it's more than that. Especially as they aren't going to want to have to deal with people asking why Felicity isn't around helping her children and two *good friends* sometimes if the spin off does get picked up. 

And you know, they occasionally flat out lie to protect spoilers.

Quote

Heck, Pedowitz was likely thinking of the tons of boxes 809 could check off on paper (Arrow brand, DC/Canaries brand, KM's brand, female demo, younger demo, etc.) before anyone wrote a word of the 809 script. 

Without a doubt that's why it was greenlit. It just remains to be seen if it's enough after the review/fan consensus of the ep is in, how it fits in the with many other Arrowverse and female superhero Arrowverse shows and the rest of the pilots.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Featherhat

[statsgirl]

32 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Especially as they aren't going to want to have to deal with people asking why Felicity isn't around helping her children and two *good friends* sometimes if the spin off does get picked up. 

Good point.

I assume that William and Mia will know each other since Oliver was adamant to Diggle that they grow up together. And that everyone knows about Mia's existence now, and possibly is still helping the Team.

[apinknightmare]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:52 PM, Featherhat said:

Who knows really. There are a million ways they could be "technically telling the truth" and still give Oliver a happier ending on screen (beyond the fact that there's definitely an afterlife in this verse) and have Olicity reunite and Oliver's death stick. Although SA has also said guest spots are possible......

Yeah, I can think of a few ways that they can get around the Oliver is really for real dead (time traveling the Oliver that existed before the Crisis to the present, having an amalgam of E-1 and E-whatever Oliver on another earth that gets teleported to ours, etc.). Felicity told Diggle that she was doing a global search for Oliver and couldn't find him, but she could've been lying to keep him hidden/away from the lifestyle that kept taking him from her or whatever. The only thing I can't reconcile with those theories is that then Oliver would be around in 2040...unless somehow they can jettison O/F, baby Mia and William off to another earth to live happily ever after and just either ignore the fact that that would change the future (since Mia and William would effectively no longer exist on E-1) or make up some reason why it wouldn't.

Or maybe Oliver really is off in some other dimension but since the future is different Felicity gets to him in some different way other than becoming a fugitive and going off with The Monitor (who...does he still exist or not? IDK).

Only a week and a half and I'll never have to wonder about any of this again, yay (release me from my prison, Tatsu)

Edited January 18, 2020 by apinknightmare

[Trisha]

Arrow's Kat McNamara Previews a Brand New Mia Smoak in Her Spin-Off's Backdoor Pilot
By Lindsay MacDonald

https://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-season-8-episode-9-katherine-mcnamara-interview-new-mia-smoak/

Quote

One of the last things Oliver did before sacrificing himself for the greater good was dub his daughter, Mia Smoak (Katherine McNamara), the new Green Arrow. He even gave her an awesome new suit to go with her new title. The catch is, when he created this new Earth Prime, he completely changed the timeline, so Mia's memories of her father and her journey to the past got completely wiped in the process. Talk about a total bummer!

When we pick back up with Mia in 2040, she'll be living her best life as a resident of Queen Mansion and a wealthy socialite, who's enjoyed all the perks of being Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak's daughter, without any of the heartbreak of being a hero or vigilante.

"Fundamentally, she's still the same person," McNamara told TV Guide. "She's still the same human being, was raised by Felicity, but just in an entirely different set of circumstances. Because of everything that happened in Crisis and the fact that Oliver saved Star City and the whole Arrowverse, she's grown up in a Star City that's pretty perfect and has known not really any loss or trauma or tragedy in her life, other than the fact that she's never really known her father."

Even without Oliver physically around, his legacy still looms large over Mia and her life in Star City.

"She's also grown up with this added mantle of being the Green Arrow's daughter and what all that means given Oliver's sacrifice," McNamara continued. "That brings with it a lot of privilege and a lot of opportunity, but also a lot of responsibility. She's taking that in stride and sort of been raised in that environment. She's a very smart, cunning, cutting, capable young woman with every opportunity at her fingertips, but there's no real passion. She doesn't know what she wants to do with her life. There's nothing in her life that gives her that spark. And she's a bit searching in this."

This makes me wonder if they're going to do some parallels between pre-island Oliver and pre-memory restored Mia? 

[way2interested]

Oh, she's totally engaged to JJ.

[apinknightmare]

I'm glad the Queen Mansion didn't burn down on this new earth (or was rebuilt if it was). 

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

Oh, she's totally engaged to JJ.

Yeah and Connor is possibly the new Deathstroke, they switched roles, gotcha! Now there's a SaveConnor! mission and love triangle, especially if Mia gets any memories back. 

3 hours ago, Trisha said:

This makes me wonder if they're going to do some parallels between pre-island Oliver and pre-memory restored Mia? 

That would work. Pre Island Ollie had the world at his finger tips and the potential within himself to be great but preferred to be a trust fund douche bro. Mia might be more outwardly capable but it wouldn't surprise me if they lean hard on the Queen lifestyle parallels of her father and aunt. 

[lemotomato]

I wonder if they’re going to address the fact that everyone, except maybe Felicity, knows that original Mia came back from the future, but no one told or planned to tell new Mia about it. 

[Josh371982]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Yeah and Connor is possibly the new Deathstroke, they switched roles, gotcha! Now there's a SaveConnor! mission and love triangle, especially if Mia gets any memories back. 

That would work. Pre Island Ollie had the world at his finger tips and the potential within himself to be great but preferred to be a trust fund douche bro. Mia might be more outwardly capable but it wouldn't surprise me if they lean hard on the Queen lifestyle parallels of her father and aunt. 

She probably is. Cause that's this show. Never mind that JJ once had a sword to her throat with intent to kill. I hate love Triangles and if they make Connor some monster like JJ was in the orginal timeline I'm gonna puke I hate love Triangles especially when it involves a person being a scumbag yet they sell them as totally redeemable. Look at former Earth 2 Laurel. Not in a love triangle but what person in their right mind would become friends with someone who killed their husband like this show had Dinah do? I'm puking at the thought of Mia remembering JJ having a sword to her throat with intent t o kill but having feelings for him. That's oh sexy you know? What a message to send to viewers. On a lighter note LOL my theory of Mia being a Rich Socalite by Day, Vilgante by night looks to be coming true. I WANT to like the potential spinoff but I'm wary cause they insist of centering the show not around Mia William and Connor but Olicity Princess and two IMO lame dull characters. And really am wary of a love triangle that's not wanted and gross. Mia shouldn't have any romantic feelings for someone she remembers had intent to kill her and hopefully Connor isnt a Evil asshole in this new reality 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Josh371982

[way2interested]

BL seems to still be a significant part of the show, or at least KM sees it that way

https://ew.com/tv/2020/01/17/arrow-kat-mcnamara-spin-off-backdoor-pilot/

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New reality, new Mia.

Next week’s episode of Arrow not only serves as a backdoor pilot for a potential spin-off called Green Arrow & The Canaries starring Katherine McNamara, Katie Cassidy, and Juliana Harkavy, but it also dives right into the post-“Crisis on Infinite Earths” reality. In the epic five-hour crossover, Oliver Queen — a.k.a. the Green Arrow, a.k.a., the Spectre — gave up his life to reboot the multiverse and, in the process, helped create a brand new reality in which many things have changed.

What does that mean for Mia (Katherine McNamara)? Well, everything actually. In this new post-“Crisis” timeline, Mia never got a chance to meet her father, grew up very comfortably, and is blissfully ignorant of the horrific experiences she endured in the other reality. Well, that is until she regains all of those memories after crossing paths with Laurel (Cassidy) and Dinah (Harkavy), a.k.a. the Canaries, and then her entire world is shaken as she’s drawn back into the hoods and masks business and takes up the Green Arrow mantle.

Ahead of the big episode, EW chatted with McNamara about this new version of her character and how Mia actually benefits from this post-“Crisis” reality.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY:  How did you react when you first read this script?
KAT MCNAMARA: This script has been a really interesting figuring out of what the next steps are, especially given “Crisis,” especially given everything that’s happened. It’s sort of that big question of “Okay, what’s next? What now? Where do we go from here?” I think it’s been a really wonderful collaboration with [showrunner] Beth [Schwartz] and [creator] Marc [Guggenheim] and [co-executive producer] Oscar [Balderrama] and [executive producer] Jill [Blankenship], and all of us coming together and figuring out what all of this means for Mia and what it means for her future and for the future in general.

This Mia has led a very different life because of what happened in “Crisis.” She has this perfect life. How does this version of Mia differ from the one we got to know?
It’s a very huge departure in some senses, and in others not all. In essence, this Mia hasn’t known any kind of sorrow or hardship or anything unhappy in her life other than the fact that her father died before she was born, or before she had any real experience with him. Aside from that, she has a perfect life — Star City has been safe — and she has had every opportunity at her fingertips because of her father’s sacrifice. So given that, she still has very similar issues of abandonment in that she hasn’t had her father and she knows it was his choice, but she knows it was for the greater good. She’s lived her entire life with the responsibility of being the daughter of the Green Arrow. That is held in such a high regard in Star City that it’s given her every opportunity. But she was still raised by Felicity. She’s still the same cutting, very smart, very cunning, adept young woman who has a sensibility about her but is a little lost. She hasn’t yet found her passion. She doesn’t know what she wants to do with her life, and there’s nothing in her life that gives her that spark yet. That’s kind of where we’re left with her graduating college and hitting some real milestones in her life and sort of going, “I have everything at my fingertips, but I’m not content.”

What was it like to explore a different and lighter side of this character?
It was a really interesting journey because Mia has always had a sense of humor. That sort of levity has always existed and that little bit of Smoak snark that we all know and love. But it’s a different perspective. Where the Mia we know and love is very adept with her fighting skills, this Mia is very adept at her social skills. So it’s an expertise but in a completely different skill set and sort of learning how she relates to her brother and the other people in her life. It’s been a really fun journey of discovery.

Mia eventually gets her memories back. How does that shake things up for her?
It changes everything because in that sense she has two sets of memories and two realities almost living inside of her. The original one we’ve seen over the past few seasons and then she has this other life that she has known and loved, but she has a fully emotional attachment to both of them. So she’s constantly being pulled in multiple directions and [by] multiple parts of herself and trying to figure out what to do with this knowledge and with this memory of what it means to be a hero and responsibility. Also, the last time she wore her Green Arrow suit — the first time she wore her Green Arrow suit — she lost her father. So there’s a lot of trauma that comes back and Mia is not necessarily equipped to deal with trauma of any kind, let alone trauma of this gravity.

Juggling memories from two different realities in your mind is something none of us will probably ever have to deal with. How did you go about grounding that struggle for yourself?
It’s all about finding those moments where the different sides of her come out because it’s still the same girl at her core, just with a different set of experiences and a different set of circumstances. So it was really fun to see how her different instincts come out given the situation. Once she has memories back, we see these little flashes of the old Mia and how her instinct and training snap into play. There are other instances in which the old Mia wouldn’t have been able to well, but now with this new Mia’s social skills and the way she handles her life and the connections she has in Star City, she’s able to solve the problems in a different than she would’ve previously. So it almost extends and broadens Mia’s skill set and allows her to be an even more adept member of the team.

What were your favorite scenes from the pilot?
There are so many moments that I look back on. There’s some that I can’t talk about — they’re such spoilers and I can’t wait to discuss them further. But I would say one element that’s really special is the Mia-William relationship. We really got to see in season 8 how much they grew and how much they came together as a result of meeting their father and having to find their mother and deal with all of their issues together. Then in this new reality, they’ve had their entire life together and they’ve had a chance to really become siblings in the best way. They have almost a closer relationship. But then even when Mia gets her memories back, she remembers everything Mia went through in the other reality and she almost becomes more protective of her brother and more understanding of their situation. I love working with Ben Lewis and I love that relationship, and I think it just deepens it even more with this new sensibility.

Last time we spoke, you said that the Queen and Diggle families will always be connected. What does that relationship look like in this new reality?
It certainly plays into it in a big way, but I can’t say any more than that without getting in trouble.

 

[way2interested]

Screeners went out, it seems 😬

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

If he liked it, then I'm definitely hoping it doesn't get picked up.

[way2interested]

Access Hollywood interview with JH and KC

 

[Chaser]

I can’t take screeners seriously at all. They love ever episode they get and their favorites are always the bestest. 🙄

This whole thing is giving me flashbacks to The Originals. Loved the characters on TVD, was so excited when I heard about the spinoff and then they go and add Hayley/magic baby. Ugh. Couldn’t watch it at all.

[Aeryn13]

So, my guess is as JJ was Deathstroke in the old reality, Connor is in the new one and thus Mia will remember one good/bad version of each. Would be easily solved by giving him his memories back also.

I'm happy that Star City is in a good place and the siblings grew up together. More Ben Lewis please. Oliver sacrificed so much so at least his loved ones getting happier lifes makes me happy and ties up the show's legacy better than the old doom flashforwards.

I can almost see how Laurel can feature into a spin-off, maybe, but why Dinah? The character doesn't have all that much to her. Zoe would have been a better fit thematically as legacy Canary.

 

 

[tv echo]

Katherine McNamara Promises a 'Beautiful' Ending for Olicity & 'Arrow'
Meredith Jacobs January 17, 2020 
https://www.tvinsider.com/850000/arrow-series-finale-oliver-felicity-katherine-mcnamara/

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There are only two episodes left of Arrow, with the series finale airing Tuesday, January 28 after a one-hour special featuring interviews with Amell, the cast, and executive producers Greg Berlanti, Marc Guggenheim, and Beth Schwartz. And while we don't know much about "Fadeout" — all the logline tells us is that "after eight seasons, and the launch of countless superheroes, the series wraps up the story of the Green Arrow" and Emily Bett Rickards returns as Felicity — we did learn a few tidbits from Katherine McNamara.

The actress couldn't say much, but she did tease that she worked with Rickards again. "[It] was such a joy," she told TV Insider. "I'm glad she was able to come back. It wouldn't have felt right without her."

Through Season 7's flashforwards, fans saw what life was like for McNamara's Mia growing up with Felicity, but of course, that's all been changed due to "Crisis." (We'll see that in the penultimate episode of the series, "Green Arrow and the Canaries.") And it's unclear if any or all of Felicity's Season 7 finale ending — she presumably went off to join Oliver — will still happen.
*  *  *
As for what the future might hold for Mia's parents and how that might affect her, McNamara didn't want to spoil anything. "You get to see something and it's beautiful and I shed many tears on and off set about it," she teased. "It's really lovely, and I don't want to say anymore because I don't want to spoil it for people, but it's perfect."

And she used "beautiful" to describe the series finale as a whole. "I'm so glad we were able to tie up the loose ends that we could, revisit those nostalgic moments, and really give the legacy the honor it deserves," she said.

Edited January 18, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

'Arrow': Katie Cassidy & Juliana Harkavy Tease Hopeful 'Canaries' Spin-Off & Invite Margot Robbie
Access    January 17, 2020

-- Access: "We're picking things up on Tuesday with 2040 and, I must say, y'all look great, uh, almost like you haven't aged at all... So how much of this apparent time travel and overlap are you able to clarify for us right off the bat?" KC: "Well, you know, in this universe, anything can happen and, obviously, time travel does exist in the Arrowverse, so... that's really all I can tell you - which you already know." JH: "Time travel and fillers. That's it. That's the secret."

-- On how surprised Mia is or isn't to see Dinah and Laurel, and whether she knows who they are, JH: "Uh, well, there is - I'm trying to not give away too much... she is surprised, yes. There are elements of our old lives that have carried through and then there are elements that have not and are new. So she's discovering and we're discovering, um, but there is a familiarity, yeah... There's a connection to the past."

-- On whether the post-Crisis characters of Mia, Laurel and Dinah are the same or different from before, KC: "Um, the same ladies that we - you - I mean, I love our characters, so - that we love. But, you know, it's where we - what they've been through since, you know - since we'll see them, yeah, in the finale, what they've been through to get there and, um, what version , you know, like everything..." JH: "It's similar to - it's also the characters that we know and love, but they're new. It's fresh and - one of my favorite things about this show is that it's - it's got a vibe like Arrow, but it's definitely not Arrow. Um, so you see the character, but it's like seeing them in a new setting. It's like seeing your teacher outside of school, it's weird." KC: "It's fun, especially the dynamic between, um, Dinah and Laurel - Laurel, I love. Like, it's - it's - they're just sort of - I don't know, the chemistry is really awesome. It's really fun."

-- On what version of Laurel she is now on Earth-Prime, KC: "Right, so basically, um, there's still story to be told in terms of, you know, Black Siren and Laurel from Earth-2. And in Black Siren, you know redeeming herself and trying to find out, you know, what it - what a true hero is, what it's like to be a true hero. Um, but we don't know what happened - we haven't seen her Earth-2 Laurel, her back story. Um, we know bits and pieces of it, but we haven't really explored that world. And so, that is the version - we just made a joke earlier because I think I was like, luckily I have a shrink because there's so many versions of the character, but - so to me, it's - it's Earth-2 Laurel, but also has, you know, there's been a lot of time that's gone by and a lot of things, um, have happened, and she's - she's spicy, she's - she's fun." JH: "She's very, very fiery and spicy."

-- KC: "Yeah, I think Laurel is definitely doing her best to try to convince her [Mia]... because she needs - she needs the Green Arrow... Um, yeah, and it just takes, you know, Mia has to go through her own journey to get there." 

-- On Dinah in 2040 without gray hair and now singing and playing the piano, JH: "She's all sorts of Zen, she's found her art, like, yeah. And I love that we've softened her in that way and sort of like given her all of these rich layers. And we see that she is a musician, which is a callback to the original comic, which is really cool. And I would say that Dinah's in on the mission, but Laurel's the one who's really like - she's - she's ..." KC: "Driving the ship." JH: "Driving the ship, yeah... She's the one who has the - and I also think that maybe it is because she has a connection to Earth-2 and - and they're all, you know, and that time travel element, she - she knows what's up, so she's sort of like delegating."

-- On where we are exactly on a timeline perspective, JH: "The Arrowverse was technically destroyed. There's no more Arrowverse. It's one - we're all one. So we're on the same... Everything merged... which is great, because it means anything is possible... Clean slate, yeah."

-- On other characters who could have real influence in 2040, who could be joining forces or maybe potential foes, KC: "Well, I think, you know, definitely you'll see some of the, you know, the younger, um, kids." JH: "The 2040 crew." KC: "Yeah." Access: "William, for example?" KC: "Um-hmm." JH: "William, for example, yeah, yep. He's one of them. And he's a crucial - you know, I think that - that character is crucial because he also roots Mia to her, like, legacy and her family and her bloodline. So - and also Ben is just so good --." KC: "Such a doll. He's such a great actor." JH: "Yeah, he is, and the sweetest person. So we're really have him. Yeah, and those - those - I call them kids because, I mean, they're not that much younger than us, but those kids are gonna be part of it." 

-- When asked how SA is going to be back for the series finale, KC: "Well, I can't tell you. You're gonna have to watch it." Access: "In a Spectre type of way, because he has sort of a new form?" JH: "Interesting." KC: "Hmm, that's an interesting idea." JH: "Yes, yes, uh, yeah, they were very - the way that they made that work was very creative and it was done very tastefully and in a way that honors him being gone, but puts his presence in there in a way that just, like, roots the finale." Access: "And the legacy." JH: "And the legacy." KC: "And the show, really, overall. Yeah."

-- On how much 809 will reference COIE and wrapping up Arrow versus establishing itself as a spinoff pilot, KC: "The really great thing about Green Arrow & the Canaries, um, 809, is - when I read the script, it was - it was so fresh and I did look at it from a perspective, like, okay, 'do you have to watch Arrow in order to watch Green Arrow & the Canaries?' And the answer is 'no, you don't.' You don't have to have known anything about what happened on Arrow, but because you will be filled in, you know, in the series telling - by telling the story. And, um, you can just, you know, be a new eyes or watcher to - to it. And it just feels fresh. And it lives in the same world as Arrow, but it has -." Access: "The spirit is there." KC: "Completely. Completely. But it's fun. I mean, it's like, there's a - there's a - again, like, our relationship, our chemistry (Indicating herself and JH) - there's like a lightness... there's like a snarkiness in a way, but like - it's cool to see all these ladies and women, you know, team up and come together and especially now." JH: "That, yes, and that, in and of itself... we need it. We need just that group of women. And I think that, in and of itself, changes the energy of the show, um, in the - I mean, you wouldn't necessarily think, like, I don't know, it makes it - it just elevates it. It makes it really cool and it somehow makes us stronger as our characters." KC: "Yeah." JH: "We don't need any men. Don't need 'em. We like 'em. Don't need 'em." 

-- On the new character, Bianca Bertinelli, maybe being the new Huntress, KC: "Well, I don't know. You'll have to watch." JH: "We actually don't know that." KC: "I do." JH: "Oh, you do?" KC: "Yeah, but I'll tell you later." JH: "I am so hoping for that.  I think that would be amazing. And, um, yeah, she's a great character. She was great to work with, so it would be a really good addition to our dynamic." KC: "Yeah, she was really fun."

-- On any news about the spinoff developing beyond 809, KC: "Um, there's been some buzz about it. I think, you know, we all really - we love working together. We work together really well. It's a great show. I mean, it's a great - it's a new story to tell, you know, and I think it's really cool, again, that's it's like three female women, um, and empowering other women, hopefully, at some point later down the road... I've seen it. It's really good. It's awesome.... I'm excited for everybody else to see it and, hopefully, yeah, we get - we get picked up." JH: "I think it's an important show to have right now and, um, I think it would be good for women. I think it would be good for men to see women in this position... We feel really good about it."

-- On working with KM, KC: "She's great. She's a really good actor. Um, she's awesome. I mean, all of us get along. That's what's also really about -." JH: "Thank God." Access: "You're already a family." KC: "Exactly. We know these people and everybody's - yeah, it's just been wonderful."  JH: "Kat's amazing."

-- On the shot of the Deathstroke mask in the 809 promo, JH: "Whatever it is you think, it's not going to be that." KC: "A lot of surprises."

-- On what fans should look forward to in 809, KC: "Fans, you guys, look forward to badass women and a lot of action, kicking ass. It's amazing."

Edited January 18, 2020 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

29 minutes ago, tv echo said:

JH: "Driving the ship, yeah... She's the one who has the - and I also think that maybe it is because she has a connection to Earth-2 and - and they're all, you know, and that time travel element, she - she knows what's up, so she's sort of like delegating."

What does Laurel having a connection to E-2 have to do with anything? Did she accidentally spoil that’s where the show takes place or is this just nonsense? I can never tell, lol. 

[insomniadreams88]

35 minutes ago, tv echo said:

On working with KM, KC: "She's great. She's a really good actor. Um, she's awesome. I mean, all of us get along. That's what's also really about -." JH: "Thank God." Access: "You're already a family." KC: "Exactly. We know these people and everybody's - yeah, it's just been wonderful."  JH: "Kat's amazing."

Maybe this is true, but for some reason this all rings false to me, especially agreeing that they’re “already a family.” (And you know what? It’s okay if they’re not. Every TV cast doesn’t have to be ridiculously close.) 

Maybe because of how they’re promoting the show versus how KM is on social media. Wonder if that will change after the episode airs and we get a better idea of what it’ll be? Still think Star City 2040 would be a better title since it looks like it’s taking place there/then. Wonder if that might change now because they  considered that a spoiler?

(accidentally posted in Spoilers Only thread, sorry mods, please delete that post!)

[tv echo]

9 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Maybe this is true, but for some reason this all rings false to me, especially agreeing that they’re “already a family.” (And you know what? It’s okay if they’re not. Every TV cast doesn’t have to be ridiculously close.) 

Yeah, I wasn't really buying that "family" thing either. I think JH will be pretty easygoing, but I think KC and KM will be competing for screen time. Just a feeling - I'm already getting original Charmed vibes (when Shannen Doherty and Alyssa Milano reportedly clashed behind-the scenes). But I hope I'm wrong.

Edited January 18, 2020 by tv echo