Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[CabotCove]

 

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I can get why Oliver with the power of a God tries to fix what he could. And lets be real, he is still going about it more responsibly than whenever Barry screwed the timeline. 

Except all the repercussions and fallouts that are likely to happen for the rest of the Arrowverse shows' runs. Who knows whats coming, what dark new histories will be revealed for characters, what bad shit happened and  is going to be the result of this new timeline/universe etc....

People are going to be asking why did Oliver do that,... why did he allow this or that to happen. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by CabotCove

[Aeryn13]

17 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

 

Except all the repercussions and fallouts that are likely to happen for the rest of the Arrowverse shows' runs. Who knows whats coming, what dark new histories will be revealed for characters, what bad shit happened and  is going to be the result of this new timeline/universe etc....

 

Well, the alternative was to have no universe at all. This was done out of necessity, not because Oliver woke up one day and wanted a new universe just for himself. And for there to be some consequence, it was probably not possible to just restore the multiverse 1:1 (outside of knowing they did the merge to have easier x-overs and shake the shows up). And the paragons were involved so you have the fallout in the other shows. Unfortunately, it looks like, outside of Oliver, only Lex Luthor really got in a personal touch. Like, Oliver hardly made that guy a big public hero. Which even makes sense as one was the Spectre and the other had enough experience with the book of destiny to focus. At least Sara appears to have kept the Legends mostly in check. The three characters with the most focus. Yup, that tracks.

I'd say the rest of the fallout will be pure chance.

[apinknightmare]

13 hours ago, Featherhat said:

That's why it's just picking and choosing (apparently almost everyone *but* Laurel) who they want to bring back and coming up with an explanation afterward because Moira and Tommy's deaths had a massive affect on his journey as GA, almost as much as Robert and arguably more than Malcolm by S5 when he died - Oliver was already GA and done with Malcolm's bs mostly. But it's mostly to do with the spin off I guess. 

If Olicity got together sooner, I suppose we might here a bit about it either at the funeral or during their last scene but I'm not counting on it. Guess it doesn't really matter.

I'm choosing to believe that he kept Laurel dead because her death led to Dinah joining the team and she's going to do something necessary in the future to help his kids. It makes sense and it makes me laugh so there we go.

[CabotCove]

So I guess he doesnt care about his best friend Tommy being happy ,bringing back E1 Laurel for him, Its almost always about Oliver and whatever he wants. Adding on to his selfish deed list. Lol not that I really believe that as reason, its simple Marc Guggenheim, [Beth Schwartz too] simply hate Laurel, any version, and they are just using E2 Laurel and Spin off as an excuse for their choices. Very slim chance they were gonna resurrect her anyway. 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by CabotCove

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

So I guess he doesnt care about his best friend Tommy being happy ,bringing back E1 Laurel for him, Its almost always about Oliver and whatever he wants. Adding on to his selfish deed list, what a big damn hero. 

Yes yes, he's so selfish he's been willing to give himself up to death or to jail or whatever it takes to save his friends, save his loved ones, save his city, save the universe. The most selfish, most awful guy lmao. Please. 

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Lol not that I really believe that as reason, its simple Marc Guggenheim, [Beth Schwartz too] simply hate Laurel, any version, and they are just using E2 Laurel and Spin off as an excuse for their choices. Very slim chance they were gonna resurrect her anyway. 

Nah, they actually enjoy writing for E-2 Laurel considering they actually attempted to give her some kind of a story, even though that story sucked. They just don't feel like killing E-1 Laurel was a mistake because they never knew what to do with her apart from make her pathetic for Oliver. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by apinknightmare

[CabotCove]

He made some selfless choices and Im not taking that away from him, doesnt erase many of his selfish deeds. Just because he is lead, doesnt mean he can be absolved for the choices he makes, or that he is always right. Not saying Oliver is a trash character, just saying the writers failed him a LOT. 

As I pointed out, I dont really believe that as the reason, just pointing out the optics if he had made the choices on E1 laurel life based on his needs. Thankfully, I dont think Oliver think like that.

Edited January 26, 2020 by CabotCove

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, CabotCove said:

He made some selflesss choices and Im not taking that away from him, doesnt erase many of his selfish deeds. Just because he is lead, doesnt mean he can be absolved for the choices he makes, or that he is always right. Not saying this Oliver is a trash character, just saying the writers failed him a LOT. 

I never wrote that he was always right - Oliver has made some really stupid choices. You can level a lot of accusations at him, but being selfish isn't one of them. 

Besides, if he did choose to not bring E-1 Laurel back because Dinah was needed for something in the future regarding his kids, I would expect any parent to put their kids' wellbeing above the happiness of their best friend. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

You can level a lot of accusations at him, but being selfish isn't one of them. 

Well being selfish is definitely one of them to me, and no one is going to stop me thinking that, 

[insomniadreams88]

I think we also have to remember Arrow only has one episode to wrap up the series, show the changes post-Crisis, and properly say goodbye to Oliver, especially after his sacrifice in Crisis. In 40 minutes. 

(Sorry, but I don’t see how E1-Laurel’s fate beyond “yes, she also died, but hey, we’ve changed her history enough that we erased that awful non-deathbed confession — I hope! — and gave her some happiness before her death, and we still got Dinah and E2 Laurel, two characters who may be in another series” is important enough for screen time during that.)

[Mellowyellow]

Did I miss something? Why is Oliver selfish?

Didn't he reset the universe? Isn't that a really busy task? Surely we can't blame him for missing a few details! The man had a lot of stuff to deal with!

[CabotCove]

It doesnt really matter Lol, some people see him as selfless, other seems him as selfish  or both. Just personal perspective on his character development on 8 years of show. Doesnt change what someone else should feel and think. 

[Featherhat]

I think it's a bit of a reach to say Oliver is selfish for specifically not bringing E1 back when we don't know anything about how he was able to bring the others back and he died and gave up his own life with his wife and kids to be able to do it. It's probably not going to make a whole lot of sense but I can think of about 50 much worse/selfish things he's done off the top of my head. And that goes for Barry, Kara, all Legends and Jefferson as well. But I don't personally think it's one of post island Oliver's biggest personality flaws. Pre Island Ollie it was probably the biggest part of his personality over all. 

I don't think the writers particularly love E1 but she's probably not there because BS is there, has been *the* Laurel for 3 years now and is going to have quite a significant role (per spoilerguy). We'll probably get lots of bigging up E1 as the heroest of heroes whilst BS gets more spin off set up and snark the writers love writing for her. If they wanted to fuck with Laurel fans or KC they'd have her go up to Felicity saying she realises Oliver never loved her at all, her true love is Tommy and turn to BS anointing her the One True Laurel Canary and go back to being Rachel Dawes lite only.  Marrying Tommy and being happy before her death is better than S2-4 for her. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

KC has also changed significantly in appearance so it would be difficult to have her running around as E1 Laurel for long periods. There was probably multiple logistical reasons why they didn't resurrect E1 Laurel.

[Aeryn13]

If it was all about what Oliver wanted, he'd be alive to see his kids grow up. 

Black Siren is supposed to be the new Laurel, she is supposed to be a co-lead in the spin-off so the writers were never gonna dilute her role in the Finale by having E1 Laurel as well. 

[Chaser]

Updates from spoiler Reddit guy:

Felicity has a lot of scenes

There is an Olicity kiss

Connor was not adopted by the Diggles 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Connor was not adopted by the Diggles 

I wonder if he means ever or just not that we see in the finale. I can't remember how he was referred to in the backdoor pilot. 

[Featherhat]

Between being the young widow at the funeral, meeting her adult daughter and leading the search for her son, then the Olicity reunion I'm not surprised she has a lot to do and that they made the most of her. Maybe rescuing him is what makes William want to go back and live with her and Mia, although baby sister should do that on her own. Unless Earth Prime William never left with the Claytons in the first place because there was no need to get him off screen to make the stupid reveal work. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Featherhat

[way2interested]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I wonder if he means ever or just not that we see in the finale. I can't remember how he was referred to in the backdoor pilot. 

I was thinking that it just wasn't seen in the finale. 809 doesn't clarify it either way, just shows that JJ and Mia clearly have known him for a while and that JJ seems to care about him, so I would still guess adopted at least from 809, unless it actually is specified in 810.

[Trisha]

Ok, I’ve come around again on the finale. All season I’ve been expecting/liking the idea of a paradise dimension ending but the new promo pics last week made me temporarily hopeful that maybe the reset fully changed Oliver’s fate for the next 20 years. But now I’m back to where I was before: I think this ending could be pretty damn great considering all the potential hurdles. It felt like SA was trying to warn us of badness with all his “Arrow ended in 722” talk, plus there’s his and MG’s insistence that Oliver dies, the studio treating this season as more of crossover/spinoff launching pad than an actual Arrow wrap up, and the possible absence of EBR, the heart of the show. 

But despite all that (and some timey wimey weirdness that I’m sure won’t be fully explained), we’re still getting an hour with everyone paying tribute to how great Oliver was, a city restored and grateful in a universe he envisioned, and Olicity young, reunited and happy. It might not be everyone’s idea of an HEA but as @apinknightmare pointed out, Arrow’s ending was always going to be angsty and bittersweet, and Olicity spending an eternity together is a helluva endgame.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I was thinking that it just wasn't seen in the finale. 809 doesn't clarify it either way, just shows that JJ and Mia clearly have known him for a while and that JJ seems to care about him, so I would still guess adopted at least from 809, unless it actually is specified in 810.

I hope it gets clarified in 8x10 because I'm curious and if it isn't mentioned there then they'll go into it in the spinoff and I'm not watching that lol. 

[statsgirl]

If the Diggles don't adopt Connor later,  they maintain close contact since Mia and JJ seem to know Connor well and are fond of him.

4 hours ago, CabotCove said:

So I guess he doesnt care about his best friend Tommy being happy ,bringing back E1 Laurel for him...its simple Marc Guggenheim, [Beth Schwartz too] simply hate Laurel, any version, and they are just using E2 Laurel and Spin off as an excuse for their choices. Very slim chance they were gonna resurrect her anyway.

If they hated her, they wouldn't keep bringing her back, again and again, and they certainly wouldn't have her starring in the spin-off.

The Tommy that was Oliver's best friend loved Laurel but she didn't love him, she always wanted Oliver. Laurel said that she would fight for her relationship with Tommy but as soon as she heard that Oliver was still interested in her, she was banging him. On her deathbed, she told Oliver that he was her soul mate. It's kinder to Tommy to leave that Laurel dead and give him the opportunity to find somene who would put him first rather than a second choice to his best friend.

[Josh371982]

5 hours ago, CabotCove said:

So I guess he doesnt care about his best friend Tommy being happy ,bringing back E1 Laurel for him, Its almost always about Oliver and whatever he wants. Adding on to his selfish deed list. Lol not that I really believe that as reason, its simple Marc Guggenheim, [Beth Schwartz too] simply hate Laurel, any version, and they are just using E2 Laurel and Spin off as an excuse for their choices. Very slim chance they were gonna resurrect her anyway. 

 

Yeah hes so selfish that he went TO JAIL to protect Asshats like Dinah Rene Curtis and BS Laurel that didnt deserve shit from him 🙄🙄 everyone that stood by him that season (Felicity, William, Quentin ) suffered while those Asshats got to live without any consequences. Yeah hes so selfish 🙄🙄

[tv echo]

Thanks for posting and summarizing reddit user (superpyroman)'s spoilers, guys! I went and took a look at them myself and just wanted to add the following from his replies...

When asked if Oliver gives an opening or closing monologue, reddit guy: "Yes the entire My name is Oliver Queen." When asked what Oliver & Felicity say to each other, reddit guy: "some cheesy shit... I think its more cheesy and fanservicey."  Apparently it's never explained how exactly and why Oliver appears only after 20 years. Felicity leaves via the S7 scene where the Monitor takes her. Oliver has his normal voice and not his Spectre voice. There are no OTA scenes. As for Diggle, we don't see the green lantern ring, but we only see a box and some green light. The flashback story is about the "first dude Oliver spared from the list." The big fight sequence that SA mentioned is in the S1 flashback when Oliver was the Hood. Older William and Older Connor are not in this episode. Ben Turner is not in this episode. Anatoly is at the funeral. Emiko talks to Moira and Thea. Baby Mia is apparently with a nanny. Barry and Kara are at the funeral, but do not give speeches. Quentin is the mayor. When asked if there is any line that stuck in his head, reddit guy: "what oliver said in the end like 'fortunately we have all the time in the world' non verbatim." When asked if Oliver is still Spectre, reddit guy: "I don't think he was Spectre exactly. Just Oliver after being the Spectre."

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[MISS1]

ANY LINK FOR REDDIT SPOILERS PLEASE??

[tv echo]

Comic panels of Felicity's story in COIE Giant #2 - in the order in which they appear in the comic, I believe (big thanks to the fans who posted them!)...

 (continued)

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

Felicity wouldnt bring her own child to her fathers funeral? That's even more ridiculous than Sara picking up Mia from 20 years in the future (which is....stupid)

And it is so Arrow to have Laurel find happiness off screen and we see none of it. I loved Tommy/Laurel together so im bitter we cant see them.

Are we sure that all of this is Olivers "rewriting" since there are a lot of things that happen on this new E-Prime that he shouldn't have direct involvement in. And I wonder how "Prime" Oliver died.

[tv echo]

(continued)

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

(continued)

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Felicity wouldnt bring her own child to her fathers funeral?

Mia is less than a year old. Do you know how much attention babies need at that age? And how difficult funerals are? Why would Felicity add that on top of everything else she needs to deal with at her husband's funeral, especially since it's not like Mia would remember any of it?

Edited January 26, 2020 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Mia is less than a year old. Do you know how much attention babies need at that age? Why would Felicity add that on top of everything else she needs to deal with at her husband's funeral, especially since it's not like Mia would remember any of it?

Either way it is still feels weird to not bring her to the funeral regardless of her not remembering any of it. I'd expect her to have someone there that can still help her watch Mia as she does various things but....I'd still expect her to have the baby there.

[tv echo]

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

13 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Either way it is still feels weird to not bring her to the funeral regardless of her not remembering any of it. I'd expect her to have someone there that can still help her watch Mia as she does various things but....I'd still expect her to have the baby there.

No sense in bringing the baby version when the adult version is going to be there. 

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

No sense in bringing the baby version when the adult version is going to be there. 

Lol, not to mention the bts debate about it. "Hmm, do we get a baby for an outdoor scene that could possibly be hard to handle and that EBR doesn't even want to hold, or do we bring in the adult actress who can emote for the scene that we are already paying to be available for the episode anyway? Hmm, this is tough"

[tv echo]

Foreshadowing?...

And here's the link to MG's May 1, 2017 tumblr post:
https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/160217166519/answer-this-question-truthfully-why-cant#notes

Edited January 26, 2020 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

56 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Either way it is still feels weird to not bring her to the funeral regardless of her not remembering any of it. I'd expect her to have someone there that can still help her watch Mia as she does various things but....I'd still expect her to have the baby there.

It would also be very distressing to Mia to see how sad her mother is, along with everyone else there. Babies pick up on those things.  Baby Mia has enough to deal with in the separation from her father (and possible anaclitic depression) without having to be in a place where everyone is sad and upset.

[insomniadreams88]

I’m thinking baby Mia’s absence may have more to do with not wanting a baby on set for what may be a somewhat long scene, especially one in which the person who would presumably be holding her (Felicity) would be somewhat of the focus.

(And they could always pretend that baby Mia and adult Mia can’t be too close to each other and adult Mia wants to be by her mother’s side.) 

Though I would have liked to see baby Mia again, I think they’re going to have enough people in the funeral scene that I wouldn’t blame them if they didn’t want to deal with a baby on set at the same time. 

[Angel12d]

They could’ve just bought a stroller onto set and not needed a real baby there if they really wanted to. They probably didn’t even think about that, haha. But I don’t think it’s bad that baby Mia isn’t at her father’s funeral. She’s not going to remember. 🤷🏽‍♀️

I’m a little disappointed that we probably won’t get a scene of young William meeting his baby sister though. I would’ve liked to see that but oh well. 😔

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I’m a little disappointed that we probably won’t get a scene of young William meeting his baby sister though. I would’ve liked to see that but oh well. 😔

I at least give them props for that fake picture of Jack Moore with Jade Bamford for 809 though, it's almost as good and was way better looking than that old family photo of Oliver, Thea, Moira, and Robert XD

[Mellowyellow]

I actually think it would be weird to have both Baby Mia and Adult Mia there.

The adult version is already living though the grief and trauma. Why do you need to subject the baby version to it as well? It would be like hitting Mia with a double dose of sadness.

ETA: Jade Bamford is a gorgeous child. Loved that pic with her and Jack Moore! She's the perfect Olicitot 😍

Edited January 26, 2020 by Mellowyellow

[Featherhat]

Adult Mia and Jack Moore apparently interact so that's going to be a headfuck for him.

With photos I think the Smoak/Queen version of the family lucked out more than the others in all their shots. And the Lances. LOT had a Sara/Quentin/Laurel original one which they turned into a Sara/Oliver/Laurel one for some reason and the photoshopping was hilariously terrible.

[apinknightmare]

19 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I actually think it would be weird to have both Baby Mia and Adult Mia there.

If she got upset, she could hold herself!

[Angel12d]

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

I at least give them props for that fake picture of Jack Moore with Jade Bamford for 809 though, it's almost as good and was way better looking than that old family photo of Oliver, Thea, Moira, and Robert XD

Oh is there a pic of them both? I didn't see that as I only saw about 10 mins of the episode. But cool!

(Still feel there should've been a scene of them meeting seeing as Olicity did want them to meet, even saying as much in 722. Big sigh. But what's done is done! At least they grow up together now. I'll hold onto that.)

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Oh is there a pic of them both? I didn't see that as I only saw about 10 mins of the episode. But cool!

 

[apinknightmare]

It's a cute pic but it cracked me up that poor 19-ish year-old William still looks like he's barely hit puberty. 

[Angel12d]

Aw cute. Thanks @way2interested. I agree with @apinknightmare though. The ages don’t match up. 😂 But it’s better photoshop than usual so I’m grateful. 😂

[tv echo]

I've been thinking about the spoilers for the final Olicity scene - here are some of my thoughts...

The Place. I think the Olicity scene is set in the QC offices because that's where Oliver first saw Felicity (before they even met) and that's where Oliver & Felicity actually do first meet. So it's symbolic - and fitting that their final reunion starts off in the same place. I also think that their new location is not limited to the office building. In that 810 promo pic, you can see the entire city laid out before them through the window. So they have the whole city and probably a whole world and universe to explore.

Felicity's Age: I think Felicity becomes young again because it's a reunion of soulmates. It's her soul reuniting with Oliver's soul. When they last saw each other, it was 2019 or 2020. Also, sometimes we think of people forever stuck at a certain age in our minds. So their 2019/2020 ages may be how Oliver & Felicity will always see each other. Alternatively, if it's not the afterlife but a paradise dimension, their ages may be just their optimal ages for living their optimal lives.

Also, I don't think Oliver or the Paragons controlled how the new Earth-Prime or new multiverse looked or who survived. I think that, like the original Big Bang, the consequences of the re-sparking were either dictated by a Higher Being or by Destiny/Fate/Necessity. For example, Oliver had to have undergone enough of the same hero journey to lead him to the point where he would sacrifice himself, and he had to sacrifice himself in order for the re-sparking to work, but, at the same time, he had to be rewarded to the extent possible for his sacrifice.

Edited January 27, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Apparently there will be an advance screening of 810 today...

Also, this is hilarious - it will be interesting to read the EPs' post-mortem interviews after the series finale airs...

Edited January 27, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Also, if you recall, MG had tweeted a portion of the very last page of the finale script and the last words of scene direction were: "... Of possibility... FADE TO BLACK. END OF SERIES." That would fit in with the last scene being an Olicity scene and the Oliver & Felicity screenshot from the promo trailer. 

However, I'm still not sure how MG's dialogue tease would fit in (assuming he hasn't changed it). He had tweeted that the last dialogue words would be "... tell it to you."

Edited January 27, 2020 by tv echo

[way2interested]

I just find it funny that the final scene that came like divine inspiration to MG so much so that he had to write it down immediately and push for it to be the ending is an Olicity scene that's apparently "cheesy and fan-service-y."