Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[way2interested]

 

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, way2interested said:

 

I'm hoping  all this means is we'll bawl a bit before our happyish ending.

[tv echo]

Josh Segarra on Saying Goodbye to 'Arrow' & Working With RuPaul on 'AJ and the Queen'
Scott Fishman   December 24, 2019 
https://www.tvinsider.com/842243/josh-segarra-arrow-final-season-aj-and-the-queen-the-moodys/

Quote

Have we seen the last of you on Arrow? 
I think that’s going to be it for the life of Adrian Chase. I think that’s the end of that story.

Edited December 28, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

TV Events We Already Can’t Wait for in 2020
By Us Weekly Staff December 25, 2019
https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/pictures/tv-events-we-already-cant-wait-for-in-2020/

Quote

‘Arrow’ Series Finale
The CW series will wrap up on Tuesday, January 28, at 9 p.m. ET. Producer and former showrunner Marc Guggenheim teased the end of the show in November via Twitter: “#Arrow is wrapped. Last two words of dialogue: ‘To you.’”

Edited December 28, 2019 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Josh Segarra on Saying Goodbye to 'Arrow' & Working With RuPaul on 'AJ and the Queen'

Quote

It was awesome. I got to do the salmon ladder. I loved preparing for that. I hit up some parkour gyms in Atlanta where I was working on a movie that is coming out next Christmas on Netflix with Dolly Parton called Christmas on the Square. When I got the call about Arrow, I started working on the salmon ladder and knocked that out with some respect on my name. I didn’t want them to do that edit. I wanted that s---. I did it, and it was awesome. When they first told me about using me in the premiere, I thought, “Cool, let’s rock.”

It's funny how doing the salmon ladder is some sort of badge of honour for people who appear on the show.

[tv echo]

This review includes more (and sometimes better) pics of several comics panels, including the ones with Felicity that were posted before, plus some new panels from both stories in this comic...

Crisis On Infinite Earths Giant #1 – Good Read, Great Easter Eggs, Horrible Crisis Management, Bad Arrowverse Tie-In (SPOILERS)
Posted on December 29, 2019 | by Ian Melton
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12/29/crisis-on-infinite-earths-giant-1-good-read-great-easter-eggs-horrible-crisis-management-bad-arrowverse-tie-in-spoilers/ 

Quote

And we get to see a larger group of heroes gathered by Harbinger including the Ray from Earth-X, and Nyssa Al Ghul from Earth-1.

*  *  *
(Felicity’s comments on Earth-D are fun shoutouts such as how it “has an entire … League, I guess, of supers.” Plus not being able to recognize the “cool guy” on Earth-D as a Green Lantern…)

Edited December 30, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Per IMDb, actor Wyatt Fossett is listed as "Club Partier" in 809's guest cast and then as "Documentary Camera Man" in 810's guest cast...

I thought this was curious, so I checked Fossett's IMDb page. Nothing helpful there, except that he used to work as a key production assistant on other TV shows/movies, but now appears to be transitioning into acting. 

I also found Fossett's twitter account...

 

Bottom line, though, it looks like there might be another documentary film crew in 810.

Edited January 1, 2020 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

Quote

STAR CITY 2040 – It’s the year 2040 in Star City and Mia Queen (Katherine McNamara) has everything she could have ever wanted. However, when Laurel (Katie Cassidy) and Dinah (Juliana Harkavy) suddenly show up in her life again, things take a shocking turn and her perfect world is upended. Laurel and Dinah are tracking a kidnapping victim with direct ties to Mia and they need her help. Knowing it will change everything, Mia can’t help but be a hero and she, Laurel and Dinah suit up once again to save the city. Tara Miele directed the episode written by Beth Schwartz & Marc Guggenheim & Jill Blankenship & Oscar Balderrama (#809). Original airdate 1/21/2020.

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/green-arrow-the-canaries-official-description-released/

Mia Smoak becomes Mia Queen in the spinoff. 

[way2interested]

Gasp, but everyone is dead currently! This spoils Crisis! XD

For all seriousness though, didn't Bamford direct 809? Tara Miele was supposed to direct 807 originally and Bamford ended up doing that episode last minute, but I thought he was always directing 809 and 810. I'd be happy if she did direct this though. Get those residuals and all.

[Trisha]

“Has everything she ever wanted” makes me hope for a post-Crisis reset. But the “Knowing it will change everything” bit makes me worry it won’t stick. If Dinah and Laurel are the reason the Queens’ happy ending gets messed up, I’ll riot.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Trisha

[Velocity23]

I think it will change everything is Mia having to delwe into being a hero, not changing the Queens getting a happy ending 

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

I think it will change everything is Mia having to delwe into being a hero, not changing the Queens getting a happy ending 

Yeah, although with this, I guess it would mean that they do get a happy ending, but the characters still remember everything from the series?

[Velocity23]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, although with this, I guess it would mean that they do get a happy ending, but the characters still remember everything from the series?

Not necessary. We know what Mia always wanted. But i dont think the character of Mia will know that. 

[way2interested]

Just now, Velocity23 said:

Not necessary. We know what Mia always wanted. But i dont think the character of Mia will know that. 

So full reset of the FF characters you're thinking? 

[insomniadreams88]

Quote

STAR CITY 2040 – It’s the year 2040 in Star City and Mia Queen (Katherine McNamara) has everything she could have ever wanted. However, when Laurel (Katie Cassidy) and Dinah (Juliana Harkavy) suddenly show up in her life again, things take a shocking turn and her perfect world is upended. Laurel and Dinah are tracking a kidnapping victim with direct ties to Mia and they need her help. Knowing it will change everything, Mia can’t help but be a hero and she, Laurel and Dinah suit up once again to save the city. Tara Miele directed the episode written by Beth Schwartz & Marc Guggenheim & Jill Blankenship & Oscar Balderrama (#809). Original airdate 1/21/2020.

Yay for Mia Queen! I'm hoping that Oliver and Felicity are off in Bali in 2040. Please let that be the explanation for their absences. (Going to assume that "everything she could have ever wanted" means a happy ending for Oliver and Felicity.)

Maybe it's just the wording, but I'm confused about Laurel and Dinah apparently suiting up again after they've been tracking a kidnapping victim? Unless they're doing it through the SCPD for Dinah/whatever job Laurel has decided she wants to have? 

[Velocity23]

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

So full reset of the FF characters you're thinking? 

Well from what i been told only the characters that would be at the battle at dawn of time during Crisis would remember what happened.

[apinknightmare]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Unless they're doing it through the SCPD for Dinah/whatever job Laurel has decided she wants to have? 

Laurel read a book and she's police commissioner now lol. 

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Well from what i been told only the characters that would be at the battle at dawn of time during Crisis would remember what happened.

Yeah, I guess so. I was just thinking that Mia, William, and Connor could remember since they had already established character arcs to go forward with as is without a reset (this Mia being the GA, William being the Overwatch and helping out the city in his public life, Connor with his brother, etc.), not to mention their past arcs that were only resolved because of their travel to the past. That and I guess I wonder how Mia would suit up "again" if a reset would erase her reasoning with suiting up in the first place (along with pretty much all of the FF characters' personalities since they were shaped by their experiences, but I wouldn't be surprised if the writers hand waved that anyway).

Also, is this 2040 Laurel and Dinah then? The press release isn't making it clear with that since we saw they weren't wearing any old makeup while shooting.

[scarynikki12]

It could be as simple as Dinah goes back to being a police captain and Siren goes back to being the DA with both thinking they're done with the vigilante life. Then this kidnapping convinces them they have to suit up again and the shenanigans begin. My question is how old they're supposed to be and if that's going to be lampshaded.

[apinknightmare]

18 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

It could be as simple as Dinah goes back to being a police captain and Siren goes back to being the DA with both thinking they're done with the vigilante life. Then this kidnapping convinces them they have to suit up again and the shenanigans begin. My question is how old they're supposed to be and if that's going to be lampshaded.

They're their current ages in at least part of it if the BTS pics/video are any indication.

[statsgirl]

How could they be their current ages in 2040? Laurel was born in 1985 like Oliver; she would have to be 55 in 2040.

Maybe she and Dinah have amazing plastic surgeons. But their bodies would still be 55 and bearing the effects of earlier fighting.

[scarynikki12]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

They're their current ages in at least part of it if the BTS pics/video are any indication.

This just leads to more questions. Will their histories get rewritten so that Dinah was never on Team Arrow and Siren was never a villain? Will they now be contemporaries of William? Will their histories remain unchanged but they find themselves in the future trying to live non-vigilante lives? If so, will anyone comment on the fact that Dinah and Siren haven't aged a day? If not, then are they permanently undercover to avoid these questions? I hope this episode answers these things because it will drive me nuts if they don't. We know the people of Star City let a lot of things slide when it comes to Laurel/Siren and Black Canary but surely some of them would notice that both still look thirty something decades into the future, right?

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

This just leads to more questions. Will their histories get rewritten so that Dinah was never on Team Arrow and Siren was never a villain? Will they now be contemporaries of William? Will their histories remain unchanged but they find themselves in the future trying to live non-vigilante lives? If so, will anyone comment on the fact that Dinah and Siren haven't aged a day? If not, then are they permanently undercover to avoid these questions? I hope this episode answers these things because it will drive me nuts if they don't. We know the people of Star City let a lot of things slide when it comes to Laurel/Siren and Black Canary but surely some of them would notice that both still look thirty something decades into the future, right?

Beth had a quote on TVLine earlier that Crisis changes "literally everything" about Arrow so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up living in the future with their memories intact post-Crisis or something dumb like that. 

[Josh371982]

Mia having everything she every wanted makes me think she retains memories AND got to grow up with Mommy Daddy and big Bro William 

[scarynikki12]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Beth had a quote on TVLine earlier that Crisis changes "literally everything" about Arrow so I wouldn't be surprised if they end up living in the future with their memories intact post-Crisis or something dumb like that. 

Best case scenario for me is that they change their histories so that they have no relationship with Oliver and Team Arrow and happened to be vigilantes on their own. Even though there are two episodes to go in Crisis I think it's safe to assume that Dinah will barely be present and we know Siren isn't even a part of it. Them retaining their pre-Crisis memories really doesn't make sense given how uninterested those in charge of the crossover were in including them. Now, obviously, that doesn't mean it can't happen but I feel that it won't.

The simplest scenario is for them to get thrown into the future with no way back and so they focus on making the best of things. That would be a way for them to retain their history with Oliver and Team Arrow but not age. From Mia's, William's, and Connor's perspective they disappeared in early 2020 which would allow the lack of relationships that we saw last season to remain. If they intend for the Canary Network to continue into the spinoff then they could reveal that it was put together by Zoe to honor the fallen heroes Dinah and Siren or they could formally start it when they show up in 2040 to give them something to do since they won't be able to go back to the police force or DA's office. I'm not really a fan of this scenario because it allows both to snark on or reminisce about Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle as a way to feel superior to FTA. And we know that will happen because both Dinah and Siren have done it right to their faces (moreso the snark about Oliver and Felicity than Diggle) multiple times already and there's no reason to think that will stop.

I'd rather the first scenario where they get new memories that change their histories and make them a bit older than William. Doesn't mean it would be seamless, as Dinah has history with Zoe and Rene and Siren's got her Earth 2 history but it can be worked around. Dinah would become a few years older than Zoe so you just make them a big sis/little sis rather than the friend of Rene's who mentors his daughter. They could claim that Dinah babysat Zoe growing up while Rene was off being mayor. She was more attached to Rene than any other member of Team Arrow so changing that part of her history wouldn't be a major loss. Siren is harder to change but they could rename the players in her history to parallel Laurel's history and keep Sara away due to her time traveling to avoid her revealing the truth.

I think they'll go with the simplest scenario so it will probably be something like them getting stuck in the future and making the best of it while continuing to remind everyone that they have history with Oliver and Team Arrow. The reason they won't be able to return to the past should be that they have no way to contact the Waverider, since neither Dinah nor Siren have relationships with any of the Legends, and then they eventually get an opportunity to return but choose to stay because the future needs them or something. It will probably end up being more that this will allow Siren to be a big deal hero with a clean slate and Dinah stays with her cause they're now BFF who eat fries with milkshakes. Then Siren's villainy is literally in the distant past and there's no need to bring it up anymore.

[Featherhat]

I would be really surprised if Oliver is currently alive with his family in this timeline. Everything she wanted might be with her mother and brother, maybe Connor as a boyfriend with the life that has a big pastel bedroom. I don't think they'd settle things with Oliver until the finale but we'll see. I do actually hope she remembers everything because whilst I get the potential of starting over with essentially new characters, I've also watched the old versions for 30 episodes, even though I do want the Queen family as a whole to have a combined happy ending. 

Not surprised about her becoming Mia Queen for the spin off and official title GA, whatever happens. 

[Velocity23]

17 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I would be really surprised if Oliver is currently alive with his family in this timeline. Everything she wanted might be with her mother and brother, maybe Connor as a boyfriend with the life that has a big pastel bedroom. I don't think they'd settle things with Oliver until the finale but we'll see. I do actually hope she remembers everything because whilst I get the potential of starting over with essentially new characters, I've also watched the old versions for 30 episodes, even though I do want the Queen family as a whole to have a combined happy ending. 

Not surprised about her becoming Mia Queen for the spin off and official title GA, whatever happens. 

But isnt Oliver currently alive still. With everybody else dead dead. It seems people are very eager to believe Oliver is dead and there is no way about it. When Crisis gives them the opportunity for Oliver actually getting his happy ending.

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

But isnt Oliver currently alive still. With everybody else dead dead. It seems people are very eager to believe Oliver is dead and there is no way about it. When Crisis gives them the opportunity for Oliver actually getting his happy ending.

You make a good point. Believe me I would love for The Smoak Queen Clayton family to spend the next 20 years together, they definitely deserve it, but I don't think that's how Crisis will shake out, whether Oliver has another death or has to do his job as Spectre or something else. And whilst I think Olicity will get a version of a happy ending, I don't think it's as simple as retirement to Bali (or wherever) explaining why they are offscreen whilst their kids take up the mantle. I would love to be proven wrong and 8x10 is partly showing how that happened. 

I wonder if the kidnapping victim is Connor who isn't adopted in this timeline?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Featherhat

[Velocity23]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

You make a good point. Believe me I would love for The Smoak Queen Clayton family to spend the next 20 years together, they definitely deserve it, but I don't think that's how Crisis will shake out, whether Oliver has another death or has to do his job as Spectre or something else. And whilst I think Olicity will get a version of a happy ending, I don't think it's as simple as retirement to Bali (or wherever) explaining why they are offscreen whilst their kids take up the mantle. I would love to be proven wrong and 8x10 is partly showing how that happened. 

I wonder if the kidnapping victim is Connor who isn't adopted in this timeline?

They can do whatever they want with Crisis. They can rewrite stuff at their hearts content. It also fits with Guggenheim saying that Crisis gave them to opportunity to write a different ending Oliver as they presumed. Which most likely led to Oliver dying. Also its kind of weird keeping Oliver as Spectre as this God like figure when you will never get to see it and there is no real threat that requires that kind of power. Also from what i seen Olivers decision was to help Spectre during the Crisis to save family and friends. Not to continue in the role after its all done.

[Featherhat]

20 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

They can do whatever they want with Crisis. They can rewrite stuff at their hearts content. It also fits with Guggenheim saying that Crisis gave them to opportunity to write a different ending Oliver as they presumed. Which most likely led to Oliver dying. Also its kind of weird keeping Oliver as Spectre as this God like figure when you will never get to see it and there is no real threat that requires that kind of power. Also from what i seen Olivers decision was to help Spectre during the Crisis to save family and friends. Not to continue in the role after its all done.

It could have lead to Oliver dying in Crisis and then getting resurrected to live a happy life with his family, since I do think they wanted Oliver dying to save his city at one point. Now he died to save billions and they have to opportunity to do both without it having to be an exact copying of TDKR. 

As for continuing the Spectre role? I don't know. He could end up deciding to sacrifice his life with his family to continue on to help others. Or maybe not. As you said, Crisis has give all shows the opportunity to do whatever the hell they want basically. I just find it a bit hard to believe that they're going to give Oliver a happy ending before the final scene of 8x10. That I'm sure is happy with "love saved the city" on the clapper boards. However Season 8 has surprised me in some awesome ways so as I said, I'll be happy to be proved wrong and Oliver and Felicity are happily together for 20 years and alive and retired when the new show starts. Though didn't Beth say the portal Felicity went through (original supposed to be post Crisis) was going to be referenced. And Lamonica Garrett is in the finale, which makes me think shenangians.  

I do wonder if they'll take the opportunity to scrub BS's background a bit. I think they'll want to keep her as the snarky one though, considering KC is much better at that and we know it's still E2. A new show plus Crisis gives them a opportunity to start fresh with all these characters but I'm less interested if they're all new versions straight away and I'm unsure about it as it is. LOT changed and grew a lot of the characters but they all started off recognisable from their parent shows. 

[Velocity23]

32 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

It could have lead to Oliver dying in Crisis and then getting resurrected to live a happy life with his family, since I do think they wanted Oliver dying to save his city at one point. Now he died to save billions and they have to opportunity to do both without it having to be an exact copying of TDKR. 

As for continuing the Spectre role? I don't know. He could end up deciding to sacrifice his life with his family to continue on to help others. Or maybe not. As you said, Crisis has give all shows the opportunity to do whatever the hell they want basically. I just find it a bit hard to believe that they're going to give Oliver a happy ending before the final scene of 8x10. That I'm sure is happy with "love saved the city" on the clapper boards. However Season 8 has surprised me in some awesome ways so as I said, I'll be happy to be proved wrong and Oliver and Felicity are happily together for 20 years and alive and retired when the new show starts. Though didn't Beth say the portal Felicity went through (original supposed to be post Crisis) was going to be referenced. And Lamonica Garrett is in the finale, which makes me think shenangians.  

I do wonder if they'll take the opportunity to scrub BS's background a bit. I think they'll want to keep her as the snarky one though, considering KC is much better at that and we know it's still E2. A new show plus Crisis gives them a opportunity to start fresh with all these characters but I'm less interested if they're all new versions straight away and I'm unsure about it as it is. LOT changed and grew a lot of the characters but they all started off recognisable from their parent shows. 

But how is Oliver continuing being the Spectre away from his family any different what we seen in s7 though. There is also no impact to go for that story since it wont be seen on the screen.  People seem to be operating on this weird presumption, that everything changes but Oliver needs to be away for 20 years. It seems people are stuck on the 20 years that were only used as a tool to introduce Mia and FTA. You could also say Oliver sacrificing himself for billions and now becoming the Spectre is going to be rewarded with returning to his family once the new order is established. 

Also David Ramsey implied fans will be happy with the finale. And he has a good track record. 

Edit: we also know that throughout the filming of the finale Stephen Amell was back to sporting the old suit, which honestly makes me think that we get the story of the Green Arrow with a few tweaks at how things have changed. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Velocity23

[tv echo]

The 809 synopsis reminds me of the beginning of S4 when Laurel and Thea made a surprise visit to Oliver & Felicity in Ivy Town.

Not a single Arrow character is shown in these 808 (Crisis On Infinite Earths: Hour Four) promo pics...
https://www.spoilertv.com/2019/12/arrow-episode-808-crisis-on-infinite.html
https://tvline.com/gallery/crisis-on-infinite-earths-photos-arrowverse-crossover/

Edited January 3, 2020 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they use Crisis to erase everything they’ve been ignoring (Laurel’s evil deeds, including killing Vince, at least since she first appeared on Arrow, Dinah’s flip-flopping about Oliver and Felicity, especially attitude-wise like we saw in the FFs which will probably be erased altogether, S6 civil war, etc.) especially if the spinoff is picked up. They’ll probably be vague enough in 809 that they can decide later exactly what they’ll use in the spinoff. 

[apinknightmare]

If Oliver isn't dead or believed to be dead then I wonder what the Oliver Queen Memorial Drive and the statue are about? 

If he's believed dead and just faked it then I would find it pretty hard to believe that he and Felicity would stay in Star City, unless Mia is just living there on her own for whatever reason in 2040.

[tv echo]

"Legacies rise as heroes fall. Some who die to save us all." - I think Oliver stays dead and that the best we can hope for is that he becomes the Spectre out there in the universe somewhere (and that Felicity joins him)...

Whoever writes the Arrow episode synopses has been incorrect or misleading in the past.

"Mia Queen (Katherine McNamara) has everything she could have ever wanted..." could just mean that, with whatever happens in Crisis, Mia in 2040 is now happily living with her mother and brother in Star City (and not secluded away in a cabin). Even though Oliver's dead (or the Spectre), he's regarded as a hero (and vigilantes are not hated as before), so she's the daughter of a legendary hero. She's probably also rich now because of Smoak Tech and/or William's company.

Edited January 3, 2020 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

 

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Also David Ramsey implied fans will be happy with the finale. And he has a good track record. 

Very true and I think (very much hope) there's a "happy ending" for the whole family but IMO it's not going to be with Oliver and Felicity raising the kids happily ever after until Mia and William take up their old mantles. I would love it if it does happen but I think we're going to be kept in suspense until 8x10. Maybe it's an illogical weird quirk I'm having but I'm blocked on Crisis resetting that particular part whether Oliver dies again or stays as Spectre. Maybe I'm just too used to the sting in the tail with this show. 

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

They’ll probably be vague enough in 809 that they can decide later exactly what they’ll use in the spinoff. 

True. I think it would be a mistake to completely erase that stuff because now they have time to explore it with the characters being more in focus, like how Sara's bloodlust, guilt and losing her sister has driven a lot of her story on LOT. But they can barely be bothered to keep anything consistent about Dinah now and Laurel's redemption struggles wax and wane.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Very true and I think (very much hope) there's a "happy ending" for the whole family but IMO it's not going to be with Oliver and Felicity raising the kids happily ever after until Mia and William take up their old mantles. I would love it if it does happen but I think we're going to be kept in suspense until 8x10. Maybe it's an illogical weird quirk I'm having but I'm blocked on Crisis resetting that particular part whether Oliver dies again or stays as Spectre. Maybe I'm just too used to the sting in the tail with this show. 

 

Yeah, I think they'll get a relatively happy ending, but this show never gives us something good unconditionally. There will likely be a bitter pill to swallow to get to the happy part, so I'm just going to assume that the 20 year separation/death holds in some way just so I don't wind up disappointed.

[Velocity23]

I feel like similar staments were made when majority said Felicity is dying at the end of s7. So i am just going wait here and see,

 

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I feel like similar staments were made when majority said Felicity is dying at the end of s7. So i am just going wait here and see,

 

The “Felicity is dying” speculation was based on no solid spoilers And was pure speculation. The “Oliver is fine, totally fine after Crisis and doesn’t disappear anymore” speculation is ignoring on-set spoilers, which include the part about Oliver Queen memorial Drive and the GA statue. 

I really want Oliver, Felicity, and their kids to get a 100% happy ending, but episode descriptions have been wildly inaccurate in the past, and I think too much confidence is being put on the “Mia has everything she wanted” part.

[Velocity23]

Nobody is saying he is totally fine. And i dont think anybody expects his fate to be revealed before the finale. But the Spectre specualtion also is not set on any real spoilers outside of crossover SL we are seeing as of now. I just find it surprising that aparrently there is no chance of Oliver actually having to retire and live a normal life. 

[way2interested]

27 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I really want Oliver, Felicity, and their kids to get a 100% happy ending, but episode descriptions have been wildly inaccurate in the past, and I think too much confidence is being put on the “Mia has everything she wanted” part.

Yeah, at this point, I'm guessing it's just that the "everything she wanted" thing refers to Zoe possibly being alive, JJ possibly being good, William and Connor being ok, Star City being generally fine with way less crime (no need to be a team, little crime, her and William living well in the mansion, etc.), yadda yadda yadda with little direct mention of where Olicity are since SA and EBR aren't in the episode. I'm more on the fence and wondering about how much of the previous canon for the FF is following more than wondering if Oliver is alive in this situation. 

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I just find it surprising that aparrently there is no chance of Oliver actually having to retire and live a normal life. 

Of course there's a chance, but this show hasn't ever done anything to indicate that it's likely. This show loves to beat Oliver down no matter how much he sacrifices - it would be great if he just caught a break this one last time and got to go home post-Crisis and got to live a normal life and raise his kids. I'll hope for that to happen, but I'm going to expect the 20 year separation/something similar to hold, primarily because I don't think they'll do anything *worse* than that. If I get something similar to what they gave us in 7x22, then I won't be disappointed because I thought I'd get more. If anything better than that happens, then I'll be happily surprised. 

Seems to me like people are just trying to manage their expectations. If you want to expect the absolute best case scenario, cool!

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Seems to me like people are just trying to manage their expectations. If you want to expect the absolute best case scenario, cool!

I'm absolutely managing my expectations. I'm one of the people who thought it was possible, though not *that* likely that Felicity might die in the future storyline, saving everyone from her own creation, I was happy with what happened instead despite the horrible 20 year separation and Oliver's heartbreaking goodbye to both of them.  

I think it's also a case of the devil you know. We already know about the separation so that's one less potential "gotcha" twist. There are a lot of worse ways it could go, especially with free reign post Crisis. I keep telling myself they wouldn't have Oliver from Earth 19 or wherever it was  be with Felicity and "our" Oliver as Spectre forever. Just about talked myself out of that one. 😉

Despite the description it just doesn't feel like they're setting up an Oliver on this Earth for the ending/backstory to the spin off and that's before we get into the statue and road named after him and spoilers about a probable "Endgame" style funeral in 8x10 with loads of guest stars. 

I freely admit I tend to look on the pessimistic side for this show and Oliver and Olicity in particular and again I would be ecstatic to be proven an Eeyore over this.  

[apinknightmare]

52 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I'm absolutely managing my expectations. I'm one of the people who thought it was possible, though not *that* likely that Felicity might die in the future storyline, saving everyone from her own creation, I was happy with what happened instead despite the horrible 20 year separation and Oliver's heartbreaking goodbye to both of them.  

I thought she was going to die, and I was wrong. But being prepared for her to die did make her living and getting to go off to be with Oliver a delightful surprise. I hope I'm wrong this time too! If not, at least I'm prepared, LOL.

[tv echo]

Oliver as the green-robed Spectre in the new COIE poster would be fine if it weren't for the kinda cheesy palms up pose - well, at least, he's in the center and not shunted off the the side (also, I see Diggle and Wild Dog on the poster, but no Black Canary even though we know from spoilers that Dinah's in the crossover as well)...

(source)

Edited January 7, 2020 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

Honestly i want to know how they incorporate the  E2 LL being the only LL that ever existed post Crisis. Do they keep her turning just for a different reason? Like her sister disappearance on the sea. Its also an opportunity to erase the sister swapping. My guess is Oliver only having a relationship with Sara and not Laurel. Laurel just hating him for killing her sister.  Also probably going full evil after Tommy dies. Sara also will have gotten magical superpowers by being put in the pit. Honestly after seeing how much they removed any mention of Laurel/Oliver on E2, i feel like they just want to erase that part of the history. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Velocity23

[Chaser]

Did I miss a spoiler about them wiping out LL 1?

[Velocity23]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Did I miss a spoiler about them wiping out LL 1?

Its just what i would think the Crisis is building up to. With there not existing any doppelgangers once the Earths will be merged. Its based on what my friend told me about the comics. So the history would be rewritten with only 1 version of LL to have existed post Crisis. And since MG implied E2 LL is the one in the spinoff, that this is the LL that was writen into the story. 

[Chris24601]

5 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Its just what i would think the Crisis is building up to. With there not existing any doppelgangers once the Earths will be merged. Its based on what my friend told me about the comics. So the history would be rewritten with only 1 version of LL to have existed post Crisis. And since MG implied E2 LL is the one in the spinoff, that this is the LL that was writen into the story. 

My hunch is they split the difference and make everything up to Laurel 1's death the same, but Laurel 1's death is faked and she ends up brainwashed into evil instead (so all the Black Siren stuff is brainwashed Laurel 1 instead of Laurel 2).

It actually being Laurel 1 also better explains why Quentin is so damned intent on saving her and eventually dies for her; its his ACTUAL daughter and not just a doppelganger. Quentin's death also snaps Laurel out of her brainwashing and puts her on the more post-villainous path we got in season seven.

[Velocity23]

3 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

My hunch is they split the difference and make everything up to Laurel 1's death the same, but Laurel 1's death is faked and she ends up brainwashed into evil instead (so all the Black Siren stuff is brainwashed Laurel 1 instead of Laurel 2).

It actually being Laurel 1 also better explains why Quentin is so damned intent on saving her and eventually dies for her; its his ACTUAL daughter and not just a doppelganger. Quentin's death also snaps Laurel out of her brainwashing and puts her on the more post-villainous path we got in season seven.

Not really cuz Quentin was just batshit crazy and it wasnt his daughter.  And you cannot compare a rewriten history to something that didnt make sense at the time with the story presented.

I think they want to keep the E2 LL attitude. So they wont want the E1 version back in any capacity. Girl going to stay angry and an asshole. So basically E2 LL that gets incorporated into the Earth we knew. 

Especially knowing that the spinoff will be revolving Mia, 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Velocity23