S05.E01: Striking Vipers

[TheOtherOne]

When old college friends Danny and Karl reconnect in a VR version of their favorite video game, the late-night sessions yield an unexpected discovery.

[Miles]

This certainly was interesting and brings up a whole lot of questions about gender, sexuality. friendship and love, that I'm probably too dumb to answar, but are really insteresting to think about.

[SoMuchTV]

All I can say is, you know you're in a Black Mirror nightmare alternate reality when your dishwasher nags you to rinse the dishes before you load them!  I was told if I bought the latest and greatest stuff, I wouldn't have to do that!  I was told we'd have jet packs!

ETA: pretty sure I spotted a foldable phone. Not worth it, IMO, if I still have to rinse my daggone dishes.

What? Am I focusing on the wrong stuff? I do agree with the post above - " probably too dumb to answar, but are really insteresting to think about. "

Edited June 5, 2019 by SoMuchTV

[Miles]

What I forogot to say before: I like that they went away from the transparent phones. I think Black Mirror did that too, before. Who'd want to be able to look through their screen? It's distracting! You'd see everything behind it instead of the image you are looking at and light from the other side would make the picture worse.

Instead they now have flip phones combined with flat screen phones. Now that's a great idea. The screen protective properties of a flip phone combined with the smartphone screen. I can see this happening at some point. Although maybe more with a flexible screen than with one with a gap in the middle.

[SoMuchTV]

While I enjoy that so far we're focusing on the technology, I do look forward to comments from people more thoughtful than I am about the actual theme(s) of the episode.

[Miles]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

ETA: pretty sure I spotted a foldable phone. Not worth it, IMO, if I still have to rinse my daggone dishes. 

You really need a better dishwasher. I don't have one at the moment, but the last one I had could totally handle dirty dishes that weren't rinced first. You just put 'em in and they came out clean. Or better dishwasher tabs. Some people cheap out on those and it's not worth it.

I don't know how the future dish washer in this episode would have handled it. It just complained that knifes blade side up are dangerous, not that anything was too dirty, did it? Maybe it's great at handeling dirty dishes.

[SoMuchTV]

9 minutes ago, Miles said:

You really need a better dishwasher. I don't have one at the moment, but the last one I had could totally handle dirty dishes that weren't rinced first. You just put 'em in and they came out clean. Or better dishwasher tabs. Some people cheap out on those and it's not worth it.

I don't know how the future dish washer in this episode would have handled it. It just complained that knifes blade side up are dangerous, not that anything was too dirty, did it? Maybe it's great at handeling dirty dishes.

LOL - no, my dishwasher is fine, but the one on the show - after the comment on the knives, it also had a comment on about rinsing dishes. I know we are so far off  the off the original topic now!

[Miles]

Hey if weird technology isn't the purpose of black mirror episodes what is? But was that rinsing comment in a later scene? Because it wasn't in the knife scene. I just rechecked because I couldn't remember it.

PSA: You shouldn't rinse your dishes unless they are extremely dirty. It's a waste of water.

I hope Black Mirror wouldn't promote such practices. :D

[QQQQ]

There was another dishwasher scene where it indicated the load was too dirty and the guy had to rinse a plate before it would start the load.

[tennisgurl]

I dont need your judgement, dishwasher!

This episode certainly brings up a lot of interesting questions about gender, sexuality, and how that intercedes with strong feelings. So were Danny and Karl into each other as people, but not physically? Were they into each other and just couldn't deal with it in the "real" world? Is Danny just in going through a rough spot in his marriage and this is his way to get release with "really" doing anything? 

Its certainly an interesting idea, the existence of gender online, a space without any physical body where you can be any gender you want to be, an idea that I almost wanted more time on. I will need to think on it more. 

[Miles]

22 minutes ago, QQQQ said:

There was another dishwasher scene where it indicated the load was too dirty and the guy had to rinse a plate before it would start the load.

Damn dirty dish washer stealing all the screentime!

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So were Danny and Karl into each other as people, but not physically? Were they into each other and just couldn't deal with it in the "real" world?

I had the feeling that Danny lied after the kiss in the real world. It was the typical "nah, me neither"-lie after much hesitation. It's pretty much a TV trope at this point.

Which is curious, because in the game he was the man having sex with a woman, while Karl was the woman having sex with a man.

It certainly doesn't make things easier. In fact it makes them even more confusing. Damn you Brooker!

I think in general they have a deep emotional connection but for whatever reason it doesn't work out in the real world. Not sure if we can ever really suss out that reason.

It's also curious how fast they went to kissing and then having sex in the game. Maybe in actuality there had been sexual tension for years and only in the game they felt safe enough to let it out? Maybe they both lied after the kiss?

Another question is what is up with Karl. Is he trans? Is he just gender fluid? Can you be this gender fluid? I mean I think I could probably live with a Vagina for a few days before dysphoria got too bad, but actually having sex where somebody sticks his penis in it? That thought is very weird... and I'm not even generally against men sticking their penises in me...

Sorry if this seems a bit foreward, but I'm not sure how else you could discuss these questions of sexuality, gender and sex.

[DrSpaceman]

Very odd episode, come of funny. 

So was that a shout out to Game of Thrones, including the line "I fucked a polar bear!!"

That video game was obviously Street Fighter.  Wonder if they had to get permission from them to use those images or the idea?  Probably not since they "changed" the name. 

One problem with the story is if the sexual gratification from the game was so great between them, wouldn't the horrible pain from the fighting before they started in cause equal agony?  They were whomping on each other and seemed to take it pretty easily without much discomfort. 

I think looking back, its obvious Karl gave him the game with the intention of this sexual relationship and he had done this before with other people, in the game.  Did he know and expect the sex with his friend to be as good as it was, or was he just curious and wanted to see what it was like with him too? 

I suppose this would be added to the list of genders now.  Trans-electrocosexual for Karl and Cis-electrosexual for Danny?  Or vice verse if I am mixing them up

[CarpeFelis]

Just one thing I didn’t get. After Karl talked about how much better the experience was as a woman, I thought for sure that Danny would try it out for himself. But no, they never went there. Could have been an interesting plot point.

Edited June 6, 2019 by CarpeFelis
typo

[PsychoDrone]

Watching the episode, I was thinking "How is there not a community of internet people not exploiting this technology?"  Then, the episode talked about it, "Sex with the computer isn't the same.  I tried it with other people...gang bangs, etc.  I had sex with a polar bear."  Certainly made it more "real".  So, is the game rated M for Mature?  Or, has the rating system changed?  There has to be a tag line about having sex with the characters.

Wow, the future tech is pretty believable, except the dishwasher.  Joystick is the console, foldable glass cellphones, but a dishwasher that requires you to rinse the dishes first?!?!  Not rinsing dishes has been a selling point for dishwashers for decades.  Talk about a step back.  Obviously, Black Mirror did that on purpose.  Funny, that is the one thing frequently talked about in the episode.

[Cranberry]

Karl talked about how the AI characters weren't programmed for any sex stuff and would just lie there, so I guess it was one of those things where you go online and interact with other players at your own risk.

I liked that this episode left it up to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. Did Karl wish he were actually a woman? Was he in love with Danny's mind but not physically attracted to him? Did Danny love Karl's mind and that's why he wanted to test for physical chemistry in real life? Were either or both men lying about not feeling it in reality? We don't know for sure, and that's probably a good thing, as this episode could have gone terribly wrong if it tried to say anything definitive about sexuality or gender. 

I felt it went on a little too long (and yet somehow the guys still jumped from fighting to making out to sex a little too quickly), but overall I found it compelling.

[DrSpaceman]

I don't care if you aren't supposed to do it, I still rinse before going in the dishwasher. 

[tennisgurl]

15 hours ago, Miles said:

It's also curious how fast they went to kissing and then having sex in the game. Maybe in actuality there had been sexual tension for years and only in the game they felt safe enough to let it out? Maybe they both lied after the kiss?

Thats what I suspect, as they went super fast into making out in the game world. I suspect that they had some sexual tension between them that was never acted on or spoken of, but in the game world they felt like they had an excuse, being "not real." I think they lied about the kiss in real life, but they just weren't ready to unpack all of that. What I also thought was interesting was Danny saying how the best sex he has ever had was as his female avatar and how much he was into being her and having sex as her. Does he fantasize about being a woman, but never wants to act on it in the real world? Is that why he struggles at maintaining relationships with woman in the real world? Or maybe he is just in love with Karl's mind and their connection is non sexual but very intensely mental?

[Princess Sparkle]

15 hours ago, Miles said:

It's also curious how fast they went to kissing and then having sex in the game. Maybe in actuality there had been sexual tension for years and only in the game they felt safe enough to let it out? Maybe they both lied after the kiss?

Yeah, I was feeling like there was sexual tension there, at least on Karl's part. It stuck out to me in the beginning that Karl made a comment about how "at least one of them found time for the gym" - at first I thought it was a swipe at Theo, and I thought it was strange that Danny didn't get upset at it. But then as the episode went on, I completely reread the interaction.

15 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

One problem with the story is if the sexual gratification from the game was so great between them, wouldn't the horrible pain from the fighting before they started in cause equal agony?  They were whomping on each other and seemed to take it pretty easily without much discomfort. 

It did - Danny was making some pretty agonizing noises of pain in the beginning when he was getting beat up by Karl when he was still trying to figure out the game.

[ScarletLetter]

I think for both of them, their video game relationship was just porn/fantasy/a break from the real world, and not a romantic relationship. When they kissed in person, I believed them that there were no sparks there, because it would be hard to compare to the fantasy. Plus, there's all the real world complications - do they have to come out now? Is he going to have to leave his wife, his kid? I think that's why the wife also got to go out and have her fun - ultimately I think it's just sex, and Anthony Mackie's character and his wife (sorry I've completely forgotten everyone's character names) have the emotional connection and family that they want to preserve. Kind of a new take on an open relationship. 

It's possible that the friend had more of a yearning on his end, but I think that's because he didn't have the emotional connection to his partner. 

[Momzilla38]

16 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Just one thing I didn’t get. After Karl talked about how much better the experience was as a woman, I thought for sure that Danny would try it out for himself. But no, they never went there. Could have been an interesting plot point.

Oh my gosh I thought the same thing and actually think that they missed out on a deeper plot point by not going there!  Glad I wasn’t the only one!

[Amarsir]

Game programmers are often overworked already. Wait until they find out every game needs to be a sex simulator as well!

To be honest, I needed more. The premise is fine, taking the "Is cybersex cheating?" question that's been around for decades now and ramping it up with tech we don't have yet. And issues of gender or sexual preference were touched on just a little. But it didn't go anywhere and certainly didn't raise any only-in-Black-Mirror questions of morality or psychology. 

Also it was really slow. 18 minutes until he even activated the VR and 40 more not raising any concerns that weren't immediately obvious. It's a good thing Anthony Mackie is naturally charismatic because that's really all that kept it from being boring.

As some of you have mentioned, why not try some of the many other characters and see how that feels? Karl said he tried it with AI and it was just like a rubber doll. (*) (Exposition via tell, not show.) But what about other people? What about inviting their wives to play with them?

I think we're left with only questions because the episode didn't go anywhere to begin exploring them. A fine premise but not a complete episode.

(*) Thinking about that raises much deeper questions than anything the episode actually showed. Karl had sex with the AI. In a fighting game. How did it know not to punch him? Did he have to beat the opponent in a fight before they were able to have sex? How creepy is that? 

[Ms Blue Jay]

22 hours ago, Miles said:

Damn dirty dish washer stealing all the screentime!

Purple monkey dishwasher

Edited June 6, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[SoMuchTV]

Just checking back in to make sure I understood the ending. Danny and Theo agreed on a cheat day, right?

[Miles]

2 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Just checking back in to make sure I understood the ending. Danny and Theo agreed on a cheat day, right?

Yes, on his birthday he fucks his best friend and she fucks randos she picks up in bars. Making this episode span two years and one day.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Miles

[SoMuchTV]

7 minutes ago, Miles said:

Yes, on his birthday he fucks his best friend and she fucks randos she picks up in bars. Making this episode span two years and one day.

Plus the minus-11 years, but right - thanks. It did seem centered around his birthdays.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

Yes, on his birthday he fucks his best friend and she fucks randos she picks up in bars. Making this episode span two years and one day.

But what did Danny give Theo?  A box to put her wedding ring in?!

[HC87]

Meh....a knock-off San Junipero meets Brokeback Mountain.

Color me disappointed...waited all that time from Bandersnatch for that?

Edited June 7, 2019 by HC87

[Kel Varnsen]

Interesting episode to make you think about a lot of things. But what kept bugging me the whole time was why was sex programmed as an option in a fighting game, like why would game designers even give the characters working sex organs? Now don't get me wrong, if this type of tech were invented, a sex simulator would be the first thing to get made. But beyond that, why make sex part of other games. And does that mean sex is possible in other video games too? Man, what is Super Smash Brothers like?

[millennium]

18 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I liked that this episode left it up to the viewer to draw their own conclusions. Did Karl wish he were actually a woman? Was he in love with Danny's mind but not physically attracted to him? Did Danny love Karl's mind and that's why he wanted to test for physical chemistry in real life? Were either or both men lying about not feeling it in reality? We don't know for sure, and that's probably a good thing, as this episode could have gone terribly wrong if it tried to say anything definitive about sexuality or gender. 

I think Danny and Karl were being honest when they kissed and said they felt nothing.   Further, I don't believe there was any "spark" between them prior to playing the game.

The answer to your questions, I think, can be found in the story.   Remember after Danny/Lance asked Karl/Roxi if getting hit would hurt?  Karl/Roxi said the game reproduces a full physical experience.   Karl was in a female body, Danny was in a male body.  I think their reactions were dictated by the form they inhabited.   Roxi was programmed for a female experience, Lance for male.   Both players were rendered physically helpless in the real world, suggesting their own physical "programming" became subordinate to that of the characters while the game was in play.   That's why they felt no physical attraction when kissing in their own bodies. 

There were some real credibility issues with this story.   If there were a virtual reality program that allowed people to have sex in whatever form they chose, it would be HUGE and extend far beyond a game.   EVERYBODY would know about it, EVERYBODY would be trying it.  

Even now, today, we have Second Life, IMVU, etc. that let you live vicariously through avatars.  If technology were developed that allowed you to transfer your senses and intellect into a digital avatar ... nobody would ever come out again.

This story made it seem like Danny, Karl and a relative handful of people were availing themselves of clandestine fun, in secret.   That just doesn't ring true to me. 

[SWLinPHX]

4 minutes ago, millennium said:

I think Danny and Karl were being honest when they kissed and said they felt nothing.   Further, I don't believe there was any "spark" between them prior to playing the game.

They did purposely show the scene in the beginning (eleven years earlier) where Karl mounts Danny on the sofa after playing the early, more primitive version of Striking Vipers.  They must have shown that for some reason to indicate Karl was kind of into Danny in some way.

Edited June 7, 2019 by SWLinPHX

[millennium]

6 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

They did purposely show the scene in the beginning where Karl mounts Danny on the sofa after playing the early, more primitive version of Striking Vipers.  They must have shown that for some reason to indicate Karl was kind of into Danny in some way.

Maybe subconsciously.   Many guys are closer to their male friends than they ever will be with their wives.   Who can say where the lines between platonic and romantic love blur?

Edited June 7, 2019 by millennium

[benteen]

I thought this was a good episode that tackled some very interesting subjects though definitely not close to the best of Black Mirror.  It did run too long and didn't have enough of a BM payoff to events.

One thing I want to acknowledge first...

Quote

There were some real credibility issues with this story.   If there were a virtual reality program that allowed people to have sex in whatever form they chose, it would be HUGE and extend far beyond a game.   EVERYBODY would know about it, EVERYBODY would be trying it.  

Excellent, excellent point.  I think Karl said it was a new game (and perhaps had the new features) but EVERYONE would be doing this.  Some people would never leave.

Anyway, I appreciated that this episode had quite a bit of humor, a lot of it from Yahya Abdul-Mateen II's Karl.  I laughed out loud when he suggested that him and Danny could just do this "the first Sunday of every month" or something like that and laughed too at how hilariously spaced out he looked when he was hooked into the game.  I appreciate when a show or movie appreciates humor.

I haven't seen Nicole Beharie in anything since she left Sleepy Hollow but damn, did she knock it out of the park during the anniversary scene.

It was an interesting compromise that they struck at the end but I can't see that not getting complicated again in the long run for everyone involved.  I admit though, I would have been amused if Nicole's character had hooked up with Tom Mison at the end.

A strong group of actors and an interesting topic but not close to classic Black Mirror.

Edited June 7, 2019 by benteen

[Cranberry]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

Many guys are closer to their male friends than they ever will be with their wives.  

Make me feel sorry for heterosexuals, why don't you!

[Princess Sparkle]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Excellent, excellent point.  I think Karl said it was a new game (and perhaps had the new features) but EVERYONE would be doing this.  Some people would never leave.

I actually did think that's where this was going to go for a little bit. When they met for their "final time" and Karl said something along the lines of "It doesn't have to be like this", I thought for sure what was going to happen was that the two of them were going to stay in the game forever.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Excellent, excellent point.  I think Karl said it was a new game (and perhaps had the new features) but EVERYONE would be doing this.  Some people would never leave.

And, judging by this, my favorite line of the episode:

"One is like a guitar solo, and one is a fucking orchestra!"

... almost everybody would be female, lol

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

There were some real credibility issues with this story.   If there were a virtual reality program that allowed people to have sex in whatever form they chose, it would be HUGE and extend far beyond a game.   EVERYBODY would know about it, EVERYBODY would be trying it.  

Even now, today, we have Second Life, IMVU, etc. that let you live vicariously through avatars.  If technology were developed that allowed you to transfer your senses and intellect into a digital avatar ... nobody would ever come out again.

There are several Black Mirror episodes like that, where the tech they present is so good that if it was real, society would look nothing like our society and nothing like the world they show. This one wasn't as bad as say Be Right Back where if regular consumers could order robots that look and behave exactly like humans and get them delivered the next day, the world would be crazy.  Because if robots are used for that just think of everything else they are being used for.

[Lady Calypso]

This episode had an intriguing idea and had a lot of different themes going on....but I really didn't enjoy it that much. I found it on the bland side, to be honest. I felt like they could have gone deeper than they did...or maybe I need to rewatch. 

I think I was expecting something different from this episode. Virtual reality sex is something that could have been interesting, but it just wasn't for me. I like the idea of exploring sexuality through different mediums and how sexuality can be fluid. I like the idea that Danny and Theo were unsatisfied in their marriage and looking for different ways to pleasure themselves. But how they brought it together didn't quite work for me. A lot of time jumping, a bit too much on the sex scenes and not enough on exploring the technology in general as well as going further into the idea of sexuality through technology and if virtual pleasure is even the same as real pleasure. They touched on it at the end with Danny and Karl kissing in real life, but it felt very abrupt.

Plus, Danny and Theo's solution is to...have a semi-open relationship? Presumably, they're only allowing each other to stray from the relationship once a year (I think it was once a year?). That could be a more bleak ending, but both look satisfied with their choice and they didn't really imply that it would stop working at any point. 

I guess I expected more so this didn't live up to what I hoped it would end up being. It was an ok episode, but very boring and it dragged on at parts. 

[callmebetty]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Plus, Danny and Theo's solution is to...have a semi-open relationship? Presumably, they're only allowing each other to stray from the relationship once a year (I think it was once a year?). That could be a more bleak ending, but both look satisfied with their choice and they didn't really imply that it would stop working at any point. 

See I didn't satisfaction on Theo's face at the end when she walked into that bar. I thought she looked sad and resigned like she didn't want to do it, but what the hell. I think she did enjoy being hit on the first time, but I didn't see her wanting to have an affair or open marriage. 

It was a very interesting episode and does bring up a lot of questions. 

[millennium]

I thought the episode painted an excruciating picture of monogamous married life.   Especially when Danny's wife starts timing sex according to a fertility app .. UGH.  

I found it interesting that Roxi liked being fucked, but, at least based on what we saw, exhibited no interest in oral sex or any other kind of foreplay or variation (possibly that would have made it less "like porn" and more "all gay now")   The sex acts between Roxi and Lance were all pretty straightforward and glaringly traditional.

I also wonder why Danny didn't invite his wife into the game as a way to get past the boredom in their marriage.   I would have done that had I written the story.   Danny could have brought her in, maybe it fails because she's too weirded out or says you should be happy with me as I am, etc., and then Danny ultimately going back to Karl would have had more impact.

[krankydoodle]

On 6/6/2019 at 9:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

But what did Danny give Theo?  A box to put her wedding ring in?!

Yes, I think so.

I don't know how sustainable their solution is, but I was happy to see that Karl was doing better, as evidenced by his clean apartment and the adorable and affectionate kitty he was cuddling.

And I was already a fan of Mackie and Beharie, but Yahya Abdul-Mateen II was new to me and wow is he charismatic. I'm looking forward to seeing him in more stuff.

[bmoore4026]

As someone who has played many a video game, this episode really hit home for me.  There is an eroticism to some video games and, on top of that, an intimacy between two people when they play head to head.  As video games have been largely been targeted toward men, I've wondered if any of them had an inkling that there may be more than a slight homoerotic undertone to a number of these.

(When I was nine, I first played the game Final Fight, which featured  many muscle bound men in tight t-shirts, no shirts at all, or in leather.  On top of that, the continue screen featured the hero character of your choice tied up and put in a perilous situation.  Seeing all this stirred something in my young mind but I didn't understand until much later what it was.  All I knew is that I wanted to put more quarters in so my hero wouldn't get blown up - I wanted to save him.)

So, I'm glad Black Mirror has done this episode.  Not just about the subconscious male eroticism in games, but of positing what might happen if two men who never really thought of themselves as gay ended up learning much about themselves if given a more immersive and intimate video game experience.

Say what you will about Anthony Mackie, but he brought his A game to this.  He was stellar.  He moved me.  He and Yahya Abdul-Mateen II have the most amazing chemistry together and I loved the scene of the two of them meeting and kissing to "make sure" and then subtly acting like they do have feelings for each other.

(Also, super mad props to Pom Klementieff for her acting.  Having to express the conflicted feelings of a black man while at the same time having to be an anime character is no small feat.  Also, it's great to see Nicole Beharie again.  Love you, Nicole Beharie.  Also, who was the hot guy playing Lance?)

Edited June 10, 2019 by bmoore4026

[JoeyCrown]

On 6/6/2019 at 8:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

But what did Danny give Theo?  A box to put her wedding ring in?!

I think it may have been a key to a hotel room or apartment?

[Racj82]

This reminds of something my best friend says a joke, or truth in jest. We are both guys but he always jokes that I would be the perfect mate if only I wasn't a dude. We get each other on every level and trust each other in ways we don't with others but neither of us ever into the thought of being with a guy.

This game or this experience gives you that. The one thing getting in the way what could be a perfect relationship.

I could never turn off the fact that it's still need and him though. Game or no game. But, I'm sure many others could. A chance to "have it all". 

[Racj82]

On 6/7/2019 at 4:37 PM, millennium said:

I thought the episode painted an excruciating picture of monogamous married life.   Especially when Danny's wife starts timing sex according to a fertility app .. UGH.  

I found it interesting that Roxi liked being fucked, but, at least based on what we saw, exhibited no interest in oral sex or any other kind of foreplay or variation (possibly that would have made it less "like porn" and more "all gay now")   The sex acts between Roxi and Lance were all pretty straightforward and glaringly traditional.

I also wonder why Danny didn't invite his wife into the game as a way to get past the boredom in their marriage.   I would have done that had I written the story.   Danny could have brought her in, maybe it fails because she's too weirded out or says you should be happy with me as I am, etc., and then Danny ultimately going back to Karl would have had more impact.

People keep asking why he never brought his wife in. Why would he?

She was happy. She was only unhappy because he was. This suggestion would just make her feel more inadequate. Also, he wouldn't want his wife anywhere what he was doing in the game because he may make him fess up to some truth he's not ready to admit yet. 

This was for the two guys. Their own separate world. Their significant others would not add to that.

[millennium]

20 hours ago, Racj82 said:

People keep asking why he never brought his wife in. Why would he?

She was happy. She was only unhappy because he was. This suggestion would just make her feel more inadequate. Also, he wouldn't want his wife anywhere what he was doing in the game because he may make him fess up to some truth he's not ready to admit yet. 

This was for the two guys. Their own separate world. Their significant others would not add to that.

If the dynamic in the game was a full-on gay thing, like Danny and Karl wanted to bone each other but  just couldn't bring themselves to face it, then, yeah, Karl introducing wifey to the game wouldn't have done much good.

But I'm not convinced the dynamic between the two men was homoerotic.   If it were, I think at some point it would have featured some ... swordplay.   But based on what we were shown, the sex was straight-up straight.  Man/woman.

One might propose that they were in such denial that they wouldn't possibly consider using two male avatars, but they were open-minded enough to kiss each other in real life to try to determine if a physical, homoerotic attraction existed between them.   The answer they arrived at was no (although I'm willing to concede that the answer may have been different had their physical altercation proceeded uninterrupted; you'll recall it was the fighting in the game that led to sex -- in fact, that's where I thought the story was headed).   I'm surprised they didn't first try the game using two male avatars to see if the attraction was still there.   It certainly seems like something they might have tried before the more drastic step of locking lips in real life.

Maybe Karl bringing his wife into the game wouldn't even have to be about the state of his marriage or his fidelity to her, but more about his own peace of mind.  Karl was looking for an out.  He was increasingly bothered by what was happening in the game.   At the very least, I suspect he would have brought his wife in to prove to himself that his hetero-instincts were still intact and to offer a viable alternative to the sessions with Danny.

Edited June 10, 2019 by millennium

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

If the dynamic in the game was a full-on gay thing, like Danny and Lance wanted to bone each other but  just couldn't bring themselves to face it, then, yeah, Lance introducing wifey to the game wouldn't have done much good.

But I'm not convinced the dynamic between the two men was homoerotic.   If it were, I think at some point it would have featured some ... swordplay.   But based on what we were shown, the sex was straight-up straight.  Man/woman.

One might propose that they were in such denial that they wouldn't possibly consider using two male avatars, but they were open-minded enough to kiss each other in real life to try to determine if a physical, homoerotic attraction existed between them.   The answer they arrived at was no (although I'm willing to concede that the answer may have been different had their physical altercation proceeded uninterrupted; you'll recall it was the fighting in the game that led to sex -- in fact, that's where I thought the story was headed).   I'm surprised they didn't first try the game using two male avatars to see if the attraction was still there.   It certainly seems like something they might have tried before the more drastic step of locking lips in real life.

Maybe Lance bringing his wife into the game wouldn't even have to be about the state of his marriage or his fidelity to her, but more about his own peace of mind.  Lance was looking for an out.  He was increasingly bothered by what was happening in the game.   At the very least, I suspect he would have brought his wife in to prove to himself that his hetero-instincts were still intact and to offer a viable alternative to the sessions with Danny.

Just in the matter of how she would possibly receive all of this, he wouldn't want to try. 

[Kel Varnsen]

I do kind of wish they showed the scene where Danny explains what is actually going on to his wife. Just because I would love to see how Mackie would have played something that weird.

[markx]

Rare for Black Mirror, but I'm glad it had a happy ending - it's a resolution that seems obvious to me, but is rarely considered an option in relationships. I'm glad that Theo got something too - in that non-monogamous relationships are about both (all) partners having that freedom, not just men; and that it considered her sexuality too.

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If there were a virtual reality program that allowed people to have sex in whatever form they chose, it would be HUGE and extend far beyond a game.   EVERYBODY would know about it, EVERYBODY would be trying it.

Even now, today, we have Second Life, IMVU, etc. that let you live vicariously through avatars.  If technology were developed that allowed you to transfer your senses and intellect into a digital avatar ... nobody would ever come out again.

Chances are that that is going on, but I don't know if *everyone* would be trying it. It sounds amazing technology sure. But plenty of people may be happy having sex as they are and their partners are in real life -  indeed, whilst I'm someone who would love to have such technology, there are still an awful lot of people with very fixed ideas of gender and sexuality. For those who are single (or non-monogamous) using it to find partners, there's also the issue of people who would get bothered about not knowing the "real" person that they're having sex with, or perhaps they're not interested in random sex with strangers.

Another issue is that with so many things to keep us interested, it takes a certain effort to get into something new. Second Life is something that for me has always been "That'd be interesting to try" - and I've never got round to it. Sometimes this even leads to laziness where we stick to the same things we're used to, even if we're getting bored of them - this was shown when Danny could have been playing any number of computer games with hundreds of hours of content, but he's stuck there playing Tetris. Or I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had the feeling of getting "bored" of the Internet and keep hitting reload on the same sites...

And would people get stuck in there? Some would. But it's like saying why doesn't everyone spend all their time watching porn, having sex, playing computer games etc.

I think there is a problem though that by the time we have technology to have brain/machine interface that works like that, similar technology would be appearing not just for games (e.g., why bother with a phone anymore, just interact with a computer directly through your mind).
 

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Instead they now have flip phones combined with flat screen phones. Now that's a great idea. The screen protective properties of a flip phone combined with the smartphone screen. I can see this happening at some point. Although maybe more with a flexible screen than with one with a gap in the middle.

Motorola are already on it! ( https://www.t3.com/news/motorola-razr-2019-confirmed-new-samsung-galaxy-fold-rival-to-launch-soon )

Edited June 9, 2019 by mdwh

[benteen]

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 11:44 PM, krankydoodle said:

Yes, I think so.

I don't know how sustainable their solution is, but I was happy to see that Karl was doing better, as evidenced by his clean apartment and the adorable and affectionate kitty he was cuddling.

And I was already a fan of Mackie and Beharie, but Yahya Abdul-Mateen II was new to me and wow is he charismatic. I'm looking forward to seeing him in more stuff.

Agreed.  Mateen was terrific and quite funny.  I appreciated that this episode managed to bring quite a bit of humor.  It certainly went a long way and avoided making this a dour story.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 6/7/2019 at 5:14 AM, millennium said:

There were some real credibility issues with this story.   If there were a virtual reality program that allowed people to have sex in whatever form they chose, it would be HUGE and extend far beyond a game.

Yes, the concept of total physical sensation being transmitted thru a tiny dot placed on your temple was a huge sci-fi leap of logic. Did Karl and Danny have to 'clean up' afterwards? 
As others have pointed out: why would the game programmers create sexual options in the game?  And once the sexual aspect became known, why not have a cyber sex hook-up alternative without the pretense of a game (that they did not bother to play any more)?

The ending was somewhat happier than many of Black Mirror episodes ... but the option taken by the wife, Theo, seemed a bit sadder and not as hygienically safe, quick and convenient as the cyber option for Danny. 

I did take issue with Karl pushing Danny with the argument of "the best sex of your life." Yeah, so?
Danny appeared to be experienced enough to know that intense sex is the icing on the cake of a relationship. You cannot make a meal of it. And sex between the same two people, or avatars, would not realistically continue to be new and mind-blowing forever. Karl and Danny were still in their honeymoon/infatuation stage. If their hookups were really just for sex, at some point one of them would eventually chase after bigger highs.