S16.E24: Daughters

[scorpio1031]

I liked Ziva until all the jealousy/flirting began with Tony.  So maybe without him there, she will be a much better character.  And who knows, once she helps Gibbs, maybe she will then be off to Europe to see him and Tali.

[ForReal]

On 5/21/2019 at 6:36 PM, stonehaven said:

...and that weird Diane as GIbbs to Fornell? I expected "Unchained Melody" to start any moment...

This took the hallucination to a whole new absurd level. What a weird episode. Not sure how I feel about the show anymore.

[Dr.OO7]

3 hours ago, secnarf said:

NO.

There is no "but". NOTHING excuses what Fornell did

Exactly. Especially considering that the guy WAS doing his job. It's not like he was slacking off.

And I really didn't appreciate his nasty "Where did you get your medical degree?" in response to the guy telling him that Emily had OD'd. Dude, it takes two seconds to run a urine or blood toxicology test and find that it's positive for drugs/poison/alcohol. The worst doctor in the world could do that.

3 hours ago, secnarf said:

Working in a NICU, this is something I sometimes worry about with some of our less stable parents. How much I worry about any given family becoming violent has *nothing* to do with how sick the baby is and everything to do with how stable the parents are

I'm a doctor and I've seen this too. It is indeed worst on the pediatric wards (though if anyone feels different, by all means, chime in)--we were even warned about this when we started our pediatric rotation.

[Ebau]

12 hours ago, Rambler said:

Over on NCIS: New Orleans, they had Pride spend most of the season talking to a dead CIA agent. Now with Gibbs channeling his ex-wife in this episode, I think we can reasonably assume that TPTB have all along been testing out the concept for the next chapter in the franchise - NCIS: We See Dead People.

OK, this one officially counts as the Best Post of the Season. 

Since we're on the subject of dead people, can we please:

A) Make Torres dead?

B) Bring back Elvis? 

[eel21788]

47 minutes ago, Camille said:

I'm a doctor and I've seen this too. It is indeed worst on the pediatric wards though if anyone feels different, by all means, chime in)--we were even warned about this when we started our pediatric rotation.

I worked pediatrics for 20 years, and that is definitely where I got the most "I demand . . . " behavior complete with slamming a fist on the closest surface. Once I started working at an adult facility my co-workers were always commenting on how patient I was with the family members. I had never realized before then that every visitor doesn't go off the deep end over the tiny inconveniences.

[green]

14 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I loved everything about this finale and hope Ziva is real. The only part about Ziva's return I'm not looking forward to is all the complaining about it.

Yeah I hate reading about all the hate for her.  And kudos for the actor quitting the show because she did NOT like what they were doing to the character of Ziva.

Also do NOT read this because it is definitely a spoiler spoiler unless, you know, you like spoilers.

Spoiler

I read online that yes Ziva was real and not an hallucination. 

No one seems to know if she will be back next season full or part time (like a Fornell type couple of episodes thing say) but it has been found out at least and confirmed that the actress is listed as a guest star for the fall premiere episode.

[Ohmo]

6 hours ago, secnarf said:

NO.

There is no "but". NOTHING excuses what Fornell did and it is not remotely realistic for that character.

There is the difference between your reaction and mine.  Your use of the word realistic.  NCIS is not realistic.  In the realistic world, Gibbs would be retired.  Watching this as the TV show that it is, I knew that Gibbs was in the room and would not allow Fornell to harm the doctor.  So there really was no threat.  Fornell was under stress, I knew Gibbs would handle it, he did, and we moved on to the next scene.

ETA: In my original post, I also said "True," as in "True, Fornell would indeed get arrested in real life." With the amount of things that we see on TV that shouldn't actually be done in real life being as large as it is, there just seems to me to be an obvious division between TV and the real world.  Of course it isn't acceptable to pull a gun on anyone at any time in any place.  However, it's a regular plot point on television,.  In a 43 minute season finale, arresting Fornell would have simply wasted time.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Ohmo

[Dr.OO7]

I have a feeling the series is going to end with Gibbs still in his coma from 1991, with this all having been a Dying Dream.

Or better yet, they'll rip off "Newhart" and have it turn out to be a dream of his St. Elsewhere character.

[ForReal]

The more I think about this episode, I have to wonder. Ziva's message that Gibbs is in danger...maybe I'm missing something, but what kind of danger could he be in that would require someone who had pretended to be dead break cover to warn him? Who is after Gibbs who is that big of a threat? 

The show is getting so far away from a police procedural. I mean, I know he had a espionage background, but still. Unless there is still someone mad at him who's connected to the guy who killed his family, I don't how he could attract so much danger.

Guess that's what next season is for.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, ForReal said:

Who is after Gibbs who is that big of a threat? 

McGee. He's getting sick and tired of all the drama and the rogue-going that he can't take it any more and he's about to crack.  Since Ziva has been watching from the shadows, she clearly sees this and knows that there is no time to lose.

[JessDVD]

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

McGee. He's getting sick and tired of all the drama and the rogue-going that he can't take it any more and he's about to crack.  Since Ziva has been watching from the shadows, she clearly sees this and knows that there is no time to lose.

That, really, is about the only way they could take this that would get me to be interested. I skipped all the Ziva episodes of this past season for reasons that everyone else has stated better than I could, and will likely skip this one and the opener. But if they go that way? I like McGee and would tend to root for him and don't want him to crack, but I think this approach would actually be interesting. (Writers, are you paying attention?)

[chitowngirl]

9 hours ago, Camille said:

Or better yet, they'll rip off "Newhart" and have it turn out to be a dream of his St. Elsewhere character.

That would be a double whammy because Newhart took that ending from a Dallas episode. St. Elsewhere, btw, ended its show revealing that everything was from the imagination of Tommy, a severely autistic child.

[Ebau]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

Or better yet, they'll rip off "Newhart" and have it turn out to be a dream of his St. Elsewhere character.

Actually, Mark Harmon's character on St. Elsewhere, Dr. Robert Caldwell, was a righteous pussy hound who schtupped everything in a skirt that couldn't outrun him, and eventually died from AIDS. However, we are talking about Hollyweird here, so I suppose anything is possible! (Ain't it funny that my computer isn't trying to autocorrect the word "Hollyweird?")

I'd actually rather believe that Ziva is returning for a more basic reason: money. CdP hasn't worked much since she left NCIS and since this past season has been lackluster at best, perhaps TPTB think she'll rekindle our interest? Well, they're right; she did. 

[twoods]

I almost had a rage blackout when Fornell pulled a gun on the poor doctor because he was scared that his twit daughter was going to die. Yeah, no. Glad that twit daughter turned out to be a druggie because I’ve always hated her and her equally annoying mother. I couldn’t stand Diane so her threatening Gibbs was giving me more blackouts. 

Ziva! I thought the big shocker was that Emily was a druggie so I was surprised. She was always my favorite (even when she was acting like an idiot) so it will be nice to see her and the old crew together again.

[scorpio1031]

8 hours ago, ForReal said:

The more I think about this episode, I have to wonder. Ziva's message that Gibbs is in danger...maybe I'm missing something, but what kind of danger could he be in that would require someone who had pretended to be dead break cover to warn him? Who is after Gibbs who is that big of a threat? 

The only one I can think of is Alejandro, brother of Paloma, son of Pedro Hernandez.  Or did he die and I forgot?  Or didn't care?

Or did Gary Glasberg have a son and it's him cause he's pissed off that the writers have ruined his father's vision for the show?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Alejandro is in prison.

[LuvMyShows]

On 5/21/2019 at 11:21 PM, scorpio1031 said:

Emily has miraculous recovery skills 

On 5/22/2019 at 9:38 AM, MDL said:

Emily was her usual bitchy/needy self, until she "cracked" and reverted to being the Daughter that admitted to needing help-loved that reconciliation,although it was a cliche'.

On 5/22/2019 at 6:06 AM, Lisa418722 said:

I am glad that Emily had an opioid problem rather than being drugged because that is more realistic.  

It may have been more realistic to have her be an addict, but it was terribly unrealistic how quickly she turned it all around.  All it took was one loving gesture from her dad, and she was completely ready to change her life back around.  I think they did quite a disservice on two levels -- one, it makes it look like that's how quick and easy it is to 'get' an addict to want to come clean, and two, it makes it look like the problem was that the parent was trying to fix it and all the parent needs to do is instead just be loving and 100% accepting.  There are plenty of addict parents who have been loving and accepting as can be, and it hasn't 'caused' the addict to miraculously come to their senses, and instead has just meant being taken advantage of.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:29 AM, Katy M said:

We already know for a fact that she's alive, so I don't think she was a hallucination.

He could be hallucinating her if she's still alive - it's only if he's really seeing ghosts that she wouldn't appear to him. But occam's razor and all, she's probably still alive, unless they're going all in with Gibbs having a mental breakdown.

As for the statement "we are all here for you" (or however she said it) Gibbs has quite a trail of dead people in his past. So maybe they're just setting up a farewell tour for his last season.

On 5/22/2019 at 1:28 PM, enoughcats said:

But it wasn't just an opiod problem, it was a dropped out of going to classes, etc.  And Mr. retired FBI never saw a clue?

She was away at college, and he seemingly respected her boundaries (though that does seem a little unlikely)

Idiotic behavior or not, I thought Joe Spano knocked it out of the park, acting wise.

I was never a Ziva fan. I didn't hate her, I just found her boring. I'm not going to stop watching because she may be back in the show.

But my subscription to CBS All Access is ending, and I don't feel even a mild desire to keep up with NCIS. As much as I like the characters and the actors, in my opinion, it's gotten tired and stale and gone past its sell-by date.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Clanstarling

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Idiotic behavior or not, I thought Joe Spano knocked it out of the park, acting wise.

I disagree.  I've seen shows/movies where the parent acts out-of-control or whatever, but it was done in a way that makes you feel their pain.  I didn't feel anything here for him in his anger and his acting up, except to feel like he was behaving ridiculously or worse.

[LuvMyShows]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:28 PM, enoughcats said:

But it wasn't just an opiod problem, it was a dropped out of going to classes, etc.  And Mr. retired FBI never saw a clue?

IIRC, they said she wasn't even registered in the school anymore.  I can only see that happening in a few circumstances, and in all of them, he would have been notified already: 1) after tuition went unpaid too long, in which case he would have known about it because it appears that he is paying 2) she literally flunked out of all her classes one semester and was dropped, in which case again he would know because of not receiving a tuition bill for the next semester 3) she dropped out in the middle of an already-paid semester, in which case he would still be notified because of the school terminating whatever ongoing financial interactions already existed. 

She must have been living in an off-campus apartment, because when she was dis-enrolled, the school would most likely have flagged that she had on-campus housing that she needed to move out of.  I can't imagine that she would have the money to then get her own off-campus apartment.

With the close relationship that we have been led to believe they have, he was either willfully clueless by ignoring the things she was or wasn't saying, or he was neglectfully clueless by not even asking her the normal school- and academics-related questions. 

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I disagree.  I've seen shows/movies where the parent acts out-of-control or whatever, but it was done in a way that makes you feel their pain.  I didn't feel anything here for him in his anger and his acting up, except to feel like he was behaving ridiculously or worse.

Mileage varies, I respect that.

31 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

IIRC, they said she wasn't even registered in the school anymore.  I can only see that happening in a few circumstances, and in all of them, he would have been notified already: 1) after tuition went unpaid too long, in which case he would have known about it because it appears that he is paying 2) she literally flunked out of all her classes one semester and was dropped, in which case again he would know because of not receiving a tuition bill for the next semester 3) she dropped out in the middle of an already-paid semester, in which case he would still be notified because of the school terminating whatever ongoing financial interactions already existed. 

She must have been living in an off-campus apartment, because when she was dis-enrolled, the school would most likely have flagged that she had on-campus housing that she needed to move out of.  I can't imagine that she would have the money to then get her own off-campus apartment.

With the close relationship that we have been led to believe they have, he was either willfully clueless by ignoring the things she was or wasn't saying, or he was neglectfully clueless by not even asking her the normal school- and academics-related questions. 

Of course, that's assuming Fornell is paying for college. Most of my kids' friends got loans or scholarships, and the parents made no contributions to anything. So the only thing their parents would hear about school is when they called their parents asking for money.

The college my millennial daughters went to kept us out of all the transactions. They had a hard and fast rule about the students being adults - parents were not in the loop. That is, though we paid the tuition we weren't automatically notified of anything, even the payment process was somewhat convoluted (I forget exactly how it went - but it was all in our daughters' names).  After they graduated, it was quite some time for the financial relationship to be ended - bureaucracy in action, apparently.

So I don't find lack of knowledge particularly jarring, and kids and addicts are adept at telling lies to give their parents what they want to hear. I do agree that it does seem unlikely he wouldn't have been in closer touch, though.

[CheshireCat]

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Alejandro is in prison.

You can always break out, I guess, but I really hope that this threat is of a different nature. This story wasn't one of my favorites.

I noticed Ziva was wearing a necklace. It doesn't look like a Star of David, though, so, now I wonder if it's a deliberate choice or just a necklace.

[Trey]

We've been watching older season NCIS episodes lately and last night Mike Franks showed up - I thought for sure he was a hallucination but it turned out he wasn't dead yet.  It tied in with "Daughters" because it was his son who was in hospital - he handled it a lot better than Fornell even when his son died.  And his son was a far better person than Emily was shown to be.

Not much to say about Daughters that hasn't already been said, just that I really liked Fornell seeing Gibbs as Diane - it made me laugh.  And the two of them agreeing to never speak of it again:)

[mythoughtis]

There is a certain point of time in a show when you know they should have ended the show last season. I think we have arrived there.  This season has been extremely odd as was last season.  

[stuckin60s]

Never liked Fornell as a strong FBI agent.  just didnt pull it off for me.  Hate Hate Hate Bishop and they teased that a team member is close to her.  Hate that hate that

interesting that Ziva is going to be on a few episodes in the Fall.  Since Tony and Sr have moved to take care of the baby.....

Just get it back the way it used to be with better writers, please

[Donder]

I got the sense she hadn't been dropped out for long. Just getting junkie shots on the side and over did it as all rookies do. I frankly, get little buzz for painkillers/opioids. My genetic profile simply isn't impressed by it. You have to have a certain gene for it to really take effect. It just makes me sleep and a bit gaseous.

Gibbs has indeed gone insane. When he said Ziver, on the second viewing he gave this wicked smile, that he was accepting of the insanity as Diane told him to do.

[jerseyflower]

I seriously hate the character of Emily, or at least the way she's portrayed.  She's so bratty and entitled and just downright rude.  I can barely stand to watch her.

[scorpio1031]

32 minutes ago, jerseyflower said:

I seriously hate the character of Emily, or at least the way she's portrayed.  She's so bratty and entitled and just downright rude.  I can barely stand to watch her.

The character was smart, funny and interesting in "Devil's Triad", but once they killed off Diane, it's like they made Emily a mini me of her mother.  What worked for a woman of Diane's age and life experiences just comes off different on a teenager, and not in a good way.

[jerseyflower]

1 hour ago, scorpio1031 said:

The character was smart, funny and interesting in "Devil's Triad", but once they killed off Diane, it's like they made Emily a mini me of her mother.  What worked for a woman of Diane's age and life experiences just comes off different on a teenager, and not in a good way.

Exactly.  A sassy opinionated mature woman is totally different to a teenager rudely mouthing off to anyone in her path.  I have a hard time believing someone like Gibbs would put up with it either, it's preposterous.   

I say this as a fairly laid back, non disciplinarian mother too,  I still wouldn't stand for that nonsense from one of my kids.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, jerseyflower said:

Exactly.  A sassy opinionated mature woman is totally different to a teenager rudely mouthing off to anyone in her path.  I have a hard time believing someone like Gibbs would put up with it either, it's preposterous.   

I say this as a fairly laid back, non disciplinarian mother too,  I still wouldn't stand for that nonsense from one of my kids.

True enough, but since I held no particular fondness for her personality as an adult, I figure that this is exactly what Diane was like as a teenager. So like it or not, it seems to fit for me.

[ForReal]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:53 PM, Trey said:

We've been watching older season NCIS episodes lately and last night Mike Franks showed up - I thought for sure he was a hallucination but it turned out he wasn't dead yet.

I saw an episode with him last night. It must have been a later episode because he looked older and I thought he was a hallucination as well. He set himself up as bait to lure out a Russian mobster. After Gibbs showed up to take out the body guard and hold the mobster at gun point, Mike point blank shot the mobster. He told Gibbs later he wouldn't lose any sleep for killing the guy like that; in fact he'd sleep like a baby. He said knowing that guy was running loose was what kept him up nights.

Having observed this attitude towards killing bad guys on the show over the years is what makes Gibbs' sudden angst seem contrived to me. Perhaps Mike needs to show up again.

[GHScorpiosRule]

29 minutes ago, ForReal said:

I saw an episode with him last night. It must have been a later episode because he looked older and I thought he was a hallucination as well. He set himself up as bait to lure out a Russian mobster. After Gibbs showed up to take out the body guard and hold the mobster at gun point, Mike point blank shot the mobster. He told Gibbs later he wouldn't lose any sleep for killing the guy like that; in fact he'd sleep like a baby. He said knowing that guy was running loose was what kept him up nights.

Having observed this attitude towards killing bad guys on the show over the years is what makes Gibbs' sudden angst seem contrived to me. Perhaps Mike needs to show up again.

Nope. It was Franks' first appearance after Gibbs rejoined NCIS and after he, Gibbs, got rid of that ridonkulous moustache. Technically, if you go back to "Hiatus", this would have been his fourth episode.  I think. Or maybe third, as I don't think he was in Part One of "Hiatus."

[ForReal]

Yes, the mustache was quite off-putting. Somehow Franks looked a little...unhealthy, at least compared to how I remember him later.

[Ohmo]

On 5/23/2019 at 3:30 PM, Ebau said:

Actually, Mark Harmon's character on St. Elsewhere, Dr. Robert Caldwell,

Dr. Bobby Caldwell was the first time I laid eyes on Mark Harmon.  I believe I was 12 or 13 (ballpark).  St. Elsewhere was the first "grown-up" show my mother allowed me to watch.  She had to explain several things.  I crushed on Bobby Caldwell HARD.  However, I absolutely HATED the way St. Elsewhere ended, and I still do.  Making the ENTIRE series out to be in the imagination of an autistic teen was ridiculously unrealistic, even if Tommy Westphall was a savant.

[enoughcats]

On 5/30/2019 at 10:09 AM, ForReal said:

but it turned out he wasn't dead yet.

Has there ever been a TV show where this phrase hasn't lead to an irritating story arch? 

(Just hum along to 'not dead yet' from Spamalot.)

[Mermaid Under]

I haven't watched NCIS for years - and only caught it last night because nothing else was on that wasn't a rerun of a rerun of a rerun. (OK, but I'm just so over Ken Burns documentary style, so I'm not watching that.)  I checked to see if the actress playing Emily Fornell was named Bellisario.   Because I couldn't think of any other reason she got the job.  No reason to start watching this show again - and I can't believe (in reading the other posts) that this was last season's finale.

[scruffy73]

On 5/24/2019 at 12:08 PM, Clanstarling said:

Mileage varies, I respect that.

Of course, that's assuming Fornell is paying for college. Most of my kids' friends got loans or scholarships, and the parents made no contributions to anything. So the only thing their parents would hear about school is when they called their parents asking for money.

The college my millennial daughters went to kept us out of all the transactions. They had a hard and fast rule about the students being adults - parents were not in the loop. That is, though we paid the tuition we weren't automatically notified of anything, even the payment process was somewhat convoluted (I forget exactly how it went - but it was all in our daughters' names).  After they graduated, it was quite some time for the financial relationship to be ended - bureaucracy in action, apparently.

So I don't find lack of knowledge particularly jarring, and kids and addicts are adept at telling lies to give their parents what they want to hear. I do agree that it does seem unlikely he wouldn't have been in closer touch, though.

My parents knew nothing about my financial transactions at school. I was on scholarship. At one school, NASA sent the money straight to school; at the other they sent a check in my and the school’s name and I had to go to the school to sign it over. Bc my parents weren’t paying my tuition I didn’t even have to get my grades sent home. Neither my father nor mother would have noticed that my grades didn’t show up.

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, scruffy73 said:

My parents knew nothing about my financial transactions at school. I was on scholarship. At one school, NASA sent the money straight to school; at the other they sent a check in my and the school’s name and I had to go to the school to sign it over. Bc my parents weren’t paying my tuition I didn’t even have to get my grades sent home. Neither my father nor mother would have noticed that my grades didn’t show up.

We paid the tuition, and didn't get the grades sent to us. Some universities are serious about treating the students as adults - regardless of who's paying the bills. We were okay with that, but a lot of the parents had a bit of a fit during orientation.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

We paid the tuition, and didn't get the grades sent to us. Some universities are serious about treating the students as adults - regardless of who's paying the bills. We were okay with that, but a lot of the parents had a bit of a fit during orientation.

I can see both sides of that. College students are, for the most part*, adults.  So, they should be treated as such and be responsible for their own grades. On the other hand, if you're paying for something, you should be able to require certain grades from your student.  I think the way to handle that is through the student, though, not the school. Jimmy, before I pay the next semester's tuition, I need to see your grades. If they are not at least X, you best be coming up with your own money.

*Some people start college at 17, and thus aren't technically adults. 

[scruffy73]

54 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I can see both sides of that. College students are, for the most part*, adults.  So, they should be treated as such and be responsible for their own grades. On the other hand, if you're paying for something, you should be able to require certain grades from your student.  I think the way to handle that is through the student, though, not the school. Jimmy, before I pay the next semester's tuition, I need to see your grades. If they are not at least X, you best be coming up with your own money.

*Some people start college at 17, and thus aren't technically adults. 

That can be between you and your kid. That is really treating your kid as an adult. They have to keep up the grades without you monitoring them AND they would have to answer to you in order to get their next term paid for. That is responsibility. That is growth.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

*Some people start college at 17, and thus aren't technically adults. 

Yep, I was one of those. But we're outliers, in general.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yep, I was one of those. But we're outliers, in general.

I was, too, that's why I thought of it.