S08.E05: The Bells

[ElectricBoogaloo]

No lies. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

And I have to say, sitting here thinking about it, I honestly don't know what she would have done if she were put in Stannis's position, if she were told the only way she could gain the Iron Throne would be to sacrifice a child, her child. I would hope she would say fuck it, not worth it. But based on what we saw before this episode, or even this season, I don't think we could really say for sure.

I know what she would do. She wouldn’t sacrifice her child. She only birthed her dragons to begin with because her baby was murdered by Mirri. It’s a hilarious irony to me that the witch died thinking her brutal murder of an innocent baby saved the world and instead made Daenarys Stormborn the stallion instead. Two of her children died to push her to this point this season. She already lost a child and used that loss to save the world . This one episode doesn’t suddenly wash away her past seven years. Personally I don’t think she even cares about the throne anymore. I think she did what she did because she hates this whole place and wanted to burn it down . Its worthless to her.

also... people forget she is FIREPROOF and birthed Dragons. If I could do that I would have a rather high opinion of myself too. Especially if I was also a beautiful, exiled exotic princess with magical a  bloodline. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[NurseGiGi]

I'm hoping that at the end of the day, when everything is settled, Jon will just say 'eff it all' and go north to live out his days with the wildlings and Ghost.

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Seriously? People criticizing her reaction to Viserys's death? Utterly ridiculous. He'd just waved a sword at her pregnant belly, for God's sake. 

As I recall watching it at the time, Viserys’s constant arrogance and condescending tone when dealing with the Dothraki was telegraphing his impending demise so loud and clear, my neighbor’s CAT fucking knew he was going to buy it in short order - so I didn’t take Dany’s reaction (coming as it did from someone who had done a FAR better job of assimilating with the Dothraki) as anything more than a sad-but-resigned acceptance of the inevitable.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, NurseGiGi said:

I'm hoping that at the end of the day, when everything is settled, Jon will just say 'eff it all' and go north to live out his days with the wildlings and Ghost.

I hope so too. He really was at his best there. Maybe he’ll grow back his curly locks. I miss those. 

[paigow]

Final Showdown:

Jon miraculously finds an unburnt Scorpion and ammunition. Cannot handle it by himself. Conveniently, Bronn walks by and says he is an expert.... Jon promises Bronn the Iron Throne if Drogon is killed. Together, they fire multiple kill shots, Drogon lands on Jon...Bronn spends years litigating the validity of an oral contract.......

[Drogo]

5 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

And I have to say, sitting here thinking about it, I honestly don't know what she would have done if she were put in Stannis's position, if she were told the only way she could gain the Iron Throne would be to sacrifice a child, her child. I would hope she would say fuck it, not worth it. But based on what we saw before this episode, or even this season, I don't think we could really say for sure.

I would go so far to say none of it- the bad or the good- would have happened had she not lost a child (or almost been poisoned by the wine merchant.) 

[TigerLynx]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. Let her be a villain. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Dany had reason to be angry before she ever got to Westeros.  She was in exile because Rheayrs (sp?) ran off with Lyanna.  Her unborn child was killed by a woman Dany tried to help.  The Mountain killed Elia and her children.  Lyanna didn't bother to let her brother or father know she went willingly with Rheayrs and was married to him (she wasn't kidnapped), and they were murdered because they confronted the Mad King over Lyanna's abduction.  This began Robert's rebellion where a bunch of people died.  Ned helped put Robert on the throne, he was a lousy leader, and Joffrey would have been an even worse King.  There are a bunch of sadistic monsters running around Westeros that don't have Targ genes.

Dany and Sansa actually have a lot in common.  It would have made more sense for them to bond.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 hours ago, Law Mom said:

Like I said, I cheered at the time. I am just acknowledging that Dany was very comfortable lying and cheating. She is a good example of someone who believes the end justifies the means. But her motivation was not to help them. If she really cared about them she would have freed them and helped them start a new, peaceful life, not subjected these poor broken men to more war. Shades of gray.

She did free them.  

She offered the Unsullied, who were then hers by right, whatever type of life they would choose.  Any or all of them could have chosen to start a new, peaceful life.  100% chose to follow the bold, shrewd, generous woman who gave them their freedom.   They were no longer slaves, their were volunteers in their Queen's army.   

She also gave them the opportunity to help them free hundreds of thousands of there fellow slaves, and end slavery in Slavers' Bay The Bay of Dragons.    I can't think of a more dignified, worthwhile and satisfying mission for warriors, who were freed from bondage.  I imagine that the Unsullied were overflowing with pride for being able to do such a great and noble thing.  

[queenanne]

I don't believe it's possible to take character moments out of context and order and come to the same conclusion that one would, by watching everything in sequence.  The "hero edit" can very well also be a mislead.  The question isn't really "do people then think it's possible Dany was evil all along", the question is, "Did Dany show more than once that she had the capacity to be evil or capricious, if she chose a different path?" 

It's not like we can say "Targaryens trending towards the unhinged as a whole entity in general" isn't foreshadowed.  It's also not like an audience member who is viewing, can only believe the character's opinion of themselves.  Of course Dany believes she's right.  What's the quote - "everyone believes they're the hero of their own story"?  It's not like characters haven't secondhand told us that they have qualms along the way in respect of Dany's fitness to lead - more than one character, I'm pretty sure although I'm blanking on names, has wondered aloud in prior seasons whether or not Dany was being arrogant and peremptory sweeping across Westeros conquering as she goes.  Some of them other than Varys, IIRC, have also wondered aloud if they were betting on the wrong horse; and not just because of self-interest.  Nobody would follow Dany secondhand for multiple seasons as a point of view character if they thought she was evil.  She probably isn't 100% one way or the other even now, as we still have 90-some (120?  I wouldn't put it past these guys) minutes of storytelling to go. 

[TigerLynx]

Ned was going to help put Stannis on the throne once he realized Jamie was the father of Cersei's children.  Robert did nothing about the Mountain murdering Elia and her children, allied with the Lannisters, and Ned still supported Robert's claim to the Throne.  At one time, Robert considered having Dany murdered before she ever got to Westeros.  The Boratheones, Lannisters, Freys, etc., aren't any different than the Targs.  They are all more than happy to kill innocent people to get the power they want.

If they are going for a War of the Roses, 100 years war type of ending, then the Tudors end up on the Throne, but Henry VIII's obsession with a male heir divides the kingdom and causes all kinds of chaos.  Eventually Henry's son Edward inherits the Throne, but he dies, Mary becomes Queen, but she dies, and then Elizabeth (red head) becomes Queen and never marries.

I think I want Dany and Jon to kill each other, and then Sansa gets to be Queen.

Edited May 17, 2019 by TigerLynx

[Uncle JUICE]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. Let her be a villain. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Certainly makes for a better scene in this last episode if you sprinkle all these realizations across the last two seasons. I've been thinking about it a while now, I think it'd be really interesting to see a "Fixed It" thread about this show, which very, very quickly went from TV Mount Rushmore to second cut for me, becasue I LOVE THIS IDEA.

THere are plenty of things that could have made Danerys go crazy much more digest-ably, I guess is the word, already in the show.We could have watched them slowly pile up, and after losing Vierion we could have had a scene in the map room on Dragonstone where she lights up her advisers, at first rationally, then finally becoming enraged and finishing with something like "I should have listened to Lady Olenna, and maybe I would have if your idiotic plots hadn't gotten her killed and lost me the Reach. She told me the first day I met her: be a dragon. That's what I'm going to do. Now GET OUT." (give me a week to workshop it, I promise it would be better).

She could have wrestled with it, her advisors could have debated what it meant, how to react, Varys could have undertaken his treason with more justification for the viewer (why did he change his mind besides Jon has a dick exactly?), they could have planned the sack of KL together...only to have, on the eve of battle, Danerys AND Jon both learn the R+L truth, Jon telling her he can't be with her even though they're in love, her arguing for her family's view of their relationship, him being dumb, and her crying...then laughing and crying...then pointing out that the pursruit of the Iron Throne has cost her everything, and now she is supposed to believe that this dude's best friend found a book supporting the claim his weird brother made, and she's supposed to accept not only are they not going to be together, but the throne isn't even HERS??? How do I know your weirdo brother and best friend didn't hatch this whole thing from whole cloth? THIS IS TREASON and as soon as I'm done with YOUR SISTER THE PRETENDER (wheeling on Tyrion) I promise you I will deal with the matter directly." 

Have someone, Tyrion maybe, realize that BEFORE Danerys, Varys was plotting to put the odious Viserys on the throne, not her. Have him use this to confront Varys when he brings up treason or goes on about how he wants to do what's best for the realm as he always says. THere's a lot you can do without going too far back to make this show what it could have been, and some of it just has to do with the order of events. 

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

As I recall watching it at the time, Viserys’s constant arrogance and condescending tone when dealing with the Dothraki was telegraphing his impending demise so loud and clear, my neighbor’s CAT fucking knew he was going to buy it in short order - so I didn’t take Dany’s reaction (coming as it did from someone who had done a FAR better job of assimilating with the Dothraki) as anything more than a sad-but-resigned acceptance of the inevitable.

I'm not tearing my hair out at her subdued reaction to her brothers death, but that was a pretty gruesome way to go....even if I didn't like someone I think I'd have a reaction 

[queenanne]

24 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Ned was going to help put Stannis on the throne once he realized Jamie was the father of Cersei's children.  Robert did nothing about the Mountain murdering Elia and her children, allied with the Lannisters, and Ned still supported Robert's claim to the Throne.  At one time, Robert considered having Dany murdered before she ever got to Westeros.  The Boratheones, Lannisters, Freys, etc., aren't any different than the Targs.  They are all more than happy to kill innocent people to get the power they want.

Agreed, and I think that this may even be a primary reason why I have no problem with believing a recharacterized Dany, I think partly because until this season, all my watching took place on season-ender DVDs, where as a completist, I was steeped in all those pretty little "behind-the-scenes" animated sketchlets outlining sections of Westeros history.  If anyone hasn't seen them, please take my word for it that one of their hallmarks was famously including alternate points-of-view voiceovers discussing the same situation from the point of view of two different characters.  In these, you had best believe that Robert had an entirely different characterization and story about the Kingslayer than the Kingslayer himself did (maybe not exact examples); and that the Targaeryens had an entirely different POV of Lyanna-and-Rhaegar than did Robert and/or Tyrion (which also helped me figure out earlier than the actual reveal that Jon Snow was their child).  Thus I think I'm desensitized to any such showrunners' airings of "history's view of things depends upon whoever survives to do the telling".

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, Law Mom said:

I did fall for it at the time. I felt terrible for this young girl who spent her whole life as a fugitive, abused by her brother and sold to a barbarian. I cheered her when she started standing up for herself. She was my favorite character for the first couple of seasons. But maybe it’s because of stuff I experienced in real life that I noticed little things that troubled me early on. When someone you care about does, say, 100 great things in a row, then says or does something odd, such as flying into a rage over something minor, then goes back to being great 100 more times, it’s easy to ignore or rationalize the one bad thing. If eventually the bad things happen more and more frequently they get harder to ignore. Some people might figure it out right away, others might take a long time to overcome the cognitive dissonance. It’s why so many women stay in verbally or emotionally abusive relationships for years, even decades. I think this is exactly what happened in Dany’s character arc, and I think it was intentional all along.  Someone mentioned a psychology experiment and actually I would find this fascinating. Some of us were suspicious early, others not until season 6 or so, and others don’t see it even now. What is different about us? Life experience? Innate cynicism? I would love to know.

For me, life experience with a parent very like Dany. I heard echoes of my past coming from her mouth early on in the series. Interestingly enough, my daughter has never watched game of thrones, and is currently binging. We talked recently when she was in season 6, and she told me that she didn't like Dany. So she's seeing, and reacting to it well before our discussion. Possibly due to her experience with her grandparent.

8 hours ago, Law Mom said:

I suppose it's a real possibility that literally everyone dies and Dany is Queen of the Ashes. That would suck.

I said some episodes ago (jokingly) that this could have a Hamlet ending, with everyone ending up dead and someone out of left field (and perhaps from another country) ends up on the shores of Westeros, comments about what idiots they all were, and the game of thrones begins again with different players. I'm wondering now if it could be Yara who takes it all.

7 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Exactly. This isn't an either/or situation. If she has done a good thing, that doesn't mean she isn't capable of also doing a bad thing, and vice versa. Or doing something that is a mix of good and bad at the same time. 

When she burned the Khals, for me it was 100% pure badassery. She definitely got the hero edit, and I think it's one the best moments she has on the show. But she also had her dragons eat that dude in Meereen without knowing if he had done anything at all, just to send a message to the other family heads. She can be incredibly caring and kind, especially to the powerless. But she also has that messiah complex, and is not only hungry for power, but believes she is entitled to it. That is a dangerous path to go down, especially on a show that is not kind to those who are single-minded in their pursuit of power. 

All of these things can be true simultaneously, and at its best this show throws these contradictions together and challenges us to deal with it. She is neither the messiah nor the antichrist. She is many things.

And I have to say, sitting here thinking about it, I honestly don't know what she would have done if she were put in Stannis's position, if she were told the only way she could gain the Iron Throne would be to sacrifice a child, her child. I would hope she would say fuck it, not worth it. But based on what we saw before this episode, or even this season, I don't think we could really say for sure.

Exactly, and I personally think this is the point of the entire saga - because it's indicative of all humanity. We all have dark and light within us. Our specific choices that darkens or lightens the overall shade, in particular the choices we make when in extreme situation. Who are we if we need someone else to keep us from acting on our worst impulses? What do we become?

Edited May 17, 2019 by Clanstarling

[terrymct]

6 hours ago, NurseGiGi said:

I'm hoping that at the end of the day, when everything is settled, Jon will just say 'eff it all' and go north to live out his days with the wildlings and Ghost.

Or restart the Night’s Watch but there probably isn’t a reason for them to exist anymore. 

[Uncle JUICE]

On 5/15/2019 at 4:57 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

House Hot Pie's sigil would be a meat pie and it's words: "Never Give Up On the Gravy".  

I like the sygil, but I think their words would be "Brown The Butter."

[Uncle JUICE]

9 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Or restart the Night’s Watch but there probably isn’t a reason for them to exist anymore. 

I'm so afraid of this happening. It will literally mean the show has completely forgotten the Wall's stated purpose: to separate the wildings and other threats from the south. The wildlings are just free folk now and there aren't many left, and the 'others' were supposedly permanently defeated at Winterfell. There is nothing to watch for. 

[Bryce Lynch]

51 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I'm not tearing my hair out at her subdued reaction to her brothers death, but that was a pretty gruesome way to go....even if I didn't like someone I think I'd have a reaction 

I guess she should have cried and squealed like a weak. little woman, over the brother who just threatened to kill her and her baby.

Her reaction was the reaction of a Khaleesi.   

[Bryce Lynch]

40 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Or restart the Night’s Watch but there probably isn’t a reason for them to exist anymore. 

Somebody still has to keep an eye out for grumpkins and snarks. :)

I imagine them turning the Wall into a tourist attraction.

"Ride the Castle Black elevator to the top of the wall and piss of the edge of the world!"

[MrWhyt]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Nope. Watched a bunch of clips today. Not black, not even grey.

the camera angles show her as a goddess. We cut to people smiling reverently. The music swells. THE FUCKING EDITORS AND SHOWRUNNERS WANTED YOU TO ROOT FOR HWR. So we did.

this is all Ret conning. Don’t fall for it.

believe it or not but I have the ability to judge the morality of an action on my own, heroic music and camera angles don't override the basic facts of the scene.

[RealReality]

11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I guess she should have cried and squealed like a weak. little woman, over the brother who just threatened to kill her and her baby.

Her reaction was the reaction of a Khaleesi.   

I know I didn't say that because I didn't at all think that.

Any human being, man or woman should have some visceral reaction to someone dying a gruesome death whether they liked them or not.

I never said it had to be a breakdown, crying or hair pulling.  But it should be something.  I think that's just a human response.  And khaleesi or not, I'd like my leaders to have a little humanity.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[milizard]

On 5/15/2019 at 12:59 PM, kelslamu said:

You know the bank is coming after Tyrian as the last Lannister who has to pay his debts. lol

You know, everyone keeps mentioning the Iron Bank, but I thought when Cercie (sp?) took over Highgarden, she was able to pay them back with riches from Highgarden's ample supply of gold, (or gold mines, or something).  Am I missing something?

[Uncle JUICE]

Just now, milizard said:

You know, everyone keeps mentioning the Iron Bank, but I thought when Cercie (sp?) took over Highgarden, she was able to pay them back with riches from Highgarden's ample supply of gold, (or gold mines, or something).  Am I missing something?

THe Iron Bank ostensibly reinvested in the Lannister cause by funding the Golden Company. In the end, not a great investment!

[Law Mom]

1 minute ago, milizard said:

You know, everyone keeps mentioning the Iron Bank, but I thought when Cercie (sp?) took over Highgarden, she was able to pay them back with riches from Highgarden's ample supply of gold, (or gold mines, or something).  Am I missing something?

I think the Highgarden money was for past debts but the Golden Company was a new debt that is still owed.

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

I think the Highgarden money was for past debts but the Golden Company was a new debt that is still owed.

Well if Dany stays on the throne.. They may just have to eat the loss.. I imagine a negotiation will involve a Drogon appearance 

[Law Mom]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

For me, life experience with a parent very like Dany. I heard echoes of my past coming from her mouth early on in the series. Interestingly enough, my daughter has never watched game of thrones, and is currently binging. We talked recently when she was in season 6, and she told me that she didn't like Dany. So she's seeing, and reacting to it well before our discussion. Possibly due to her experience with her grandparent.

Thank you for sharing, Clanstarling. I'm sorry you went through that. You are exactly the kind of person I was wondering about. It's easy to fall for the hero edit when the show rubs your face in it, but sadly, some of us are experts at noticing the moments when the mask slips. It's also sad when other people try to gaslight us by telling us we didn't see what we saw.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Law Mom
I'm the worst typist ever

[queenanne]

12 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I know I didn't say that because I didn't at all think that.

Any human being, man or woman should have some visceral reaction to someone dying a gruesome death whether they liked them or not.

I never said it had to be a breakdown, crying or hair pulling.  But it should be something.  I think that's just a human response.  And khaleesi or not, I'd like my leaders to have a little humanity.

I kind of split the difference - I think Dany thought that's the kind of expression a Khaleesi should wear.  I don't think she was delighted by Viserys's being drowned in molten metal; I thought EC both micro-flinched and showed Dany thinking "Oh no, what have I gotten myself into now?", because she still thought that giving a "girly type response" would have signaled weakness to a Khal.  This, to me, doesn't mean she wasn't worried that Khal Drogo might turn around and do the same thing to her.  It's only later that she figured out he was in fact smitten with her, and that's why he took out Viserys.  She was too unsure of her current footing, and too alone, to allow herself to show any emotion.

[RealReality]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Well if Dany stays on the throne.. They may just have to eat the loss.. I imagine a negotiation will involve a Drogon appearance 

True, if you're willing to roast up women and children you probably have no problem turning a few bankers into human s'mores.

[GiuliettaMasina]

It was telegraphed quite early that Dany would be another in a long line of white saviors. I don't blame anyone for peacing out on her journey or finding her storyline distasteful. But the showrunners can't have their cake and eat it too.

They are the ones who wrote and produced the scenes where the Unsullied choose to follow Danny, the Mhysa scene, and Misssandei and Grey Worm being loyal to Dany until the end. If they wanted to be the writers who problematized this far too insidious trope, they needed to show us how the white savior looked from the eyes of the "saved." They gave Missandei and Grey Worm a romance and screen time; in their most intimate moments it would be natural for them to admit to more nuanced feelings towards Dany. This is not what the writers did.

Instead, they just filmed the white savior story and are now trying to say I should have known better. Beloveds, I followed your show despite its shitty racial politics not because I was blind to them.

They could have written a more nuanced story, but they didn't. I'm not giving them credit now for some kind of deep discourse on the interplay of trauma and power. 

[arty]

7 hours ago, NurseGiGi said:

I'm hoping that at the end of the day, when everything is settled, Jon will just say 'eff it all' and go north to live out his days with the wildlings and Ghost.

I won't be thrilled with this ending, but I can totally see it happening given how utterly defeated and lost Jon seemed by the end of this episode. He seemed like a man who realized that everything he knew to be true about the world was in fact a lie. I can totally understand that his reaction, his salvation, would be to leave it all behind and choose a life of peace and quiet among people (and Ghost) who have a much more straight-forward approach to life.

[steelyis]

20 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I saw it as a veiled threat.

What veil?

[ShellsandCheese]

33 minutes ago, arty said:

I won't be thrilled with this ending, but I can totally see it happening given how utterly defeated and lost Jon seemed by the end of this episode. He seemed like a man who realized that everything he knew to be true about the world was in fact a lie. I can totally understand that his reaction, his salvation, would be to leave it all behind and choose a life of peace and quiet among people (and Ghost) who have a much more straight-forward approach to life.

More than anything I hate how badly Jon Snow has been written since HH. It’s ridiculous. Hate hate hate it. 

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

THe Iron Bank ostensibly reinvested in the Lannister cause by funding the Golden Company. In the end, not a great investment!

I hope they paid for the extra rental insurance...

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

I hope they paid for the extra rental insurance...

It's a problem that didn't even need to be there (not that it's a big problem on balance): there's no need for the Iron Bank to reinvest because the Golden Company turns out to mean absolutely nothing at all in the grand scheme of things. THey're never shown in any way exerting influence on the kingdom or its politics. THey should have just been Lannister soldiers, or soldiers of someplace the Lannisters pressed into service. When they originally mentioned them in that season seven episode, I was like, oh cool, GC elephants on the battlefield to fight the Dothraki cavalry has some potential. Then in the season premier the guy basically says "Sorry, CG budget cuts, your grace" and from there, Cersei and I are on the same page about this bunch. Disappointed. 

[DarkRaichu]

11 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I am curious though, as to who is going to kill Dany. And also weirdly worried about what's going to happen to Drogon.

Logic says Jon is the only one who can get close enough to Dany when Drogon is around.

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon

GOOOOO BRONN, GOOOO!

[whyamiwatchingthis]

The Change.org petition to remake Season 8 is approaching one million. Obviously, nothing will come of this, but I still find solace in it.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon

Maybe the Prince of Dorne will show up and do it? By the way, The New Princes of Dorne is absolutely low hanging fruit waiting to be plucked as far as a band name covering The Rains of Castamere, the Bear and the Maiden Fair and that song Podrick sang at Con of Thrones. 

[MJ Frog]

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

I would go so far to say none of it- the bad or the good- would have happened had she not lost a child (or almost been poisoned by the wine merchant.) 

I very much agree. The show is full of people who have been led to where they are now through traumatic events. But I wonder what the Dany before she lost her child and her husband would have done if presented with a choice between them and becoming the Mother of Dragons. What about the Dany of seasons two, three, four, and beyond?

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

She already lost a child and used that loss to save the world . This one episode doesn’t suddenly wash away her past seven years. Personally I don’t think she even cares about the throne anymore. I think she did what she did because she hates this whole place and wanted to burn it down . Its worthless to her.

I agree that this episode doesn't wash away the past seven years -- which is why I couldn't ultimately buy Dany incinerating children, not with where this character was at the time. However, even if you erase season eight altogether, I am still not sure what even pre-season-eight Dany would have done if faced with a decision like Stannis had (or thought he had). People can do terrible things when pursuing something they think is theirs by divine right.

As to your other point, I am hoping she doesn't care about the throne anymore. While watching her burn everything and everyone, I was thinking maybe this is her way of breaking the wheel: tearing the whole rotten thing down and saying,"There, motherfuckers. Have you had enough of this crap? Because I sure as hell have."

And then she flies away to become the crazy lady in the mountains whom you don't fuck with because she has a dragon.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, MJ Frog said:

And then she flies away to become the crazy lady in the mountains whom you don't fuck with because she has a dragon.

Omg every town has one of these... 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

I know what she would do. She wouldn’t sacrifice her child. She only birthed her dragons to begin with because her baby was murdered by Mirri. It’s a hilarious irony to me that the witch died thinking her brutal murder of an innocent baby saved the world and instead made Daenarys Stormborn the stallion instead. Two of her children died to push her to this point this season. She already lost a child and used that loss to save the world . This one episode doesn’t suddenly wash away her past seven years. Personally I don’t think she even cares about the throne anymore. I think she did what she did because she hates this whole place and wanted to burn it down . Its worthless to her.

also... people forget she is FIREPROOF and birthed Dragons. If I could do that I would have a rather high opinion of myself too. Especially if I was also a beautiful, exiled exotic princess with magical a  bloodline. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think she absolutely cares about the throne. She wasn't burning everything down to leave, she was burning it down to bring it to its knees before her. She's gotten more focused on the throne as she's lost other things, not less. 

The sacrifice of a child would be easy to rationalize. One kid for all the thousands of slaves freed to live under her rule. She'd almost consider it her responsibility to do it. Every child she's ever spoken of having--the dragons and her baby with Drogo--she planned to send into battle.

Edited May 17, 2019 by sistermagpie

[MrsR]

34 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

Instead, they just filmed the white savior story and are now trying to say I should have known better.

It's not just them, it's people like me saying you should have known better. 

I found her story fascinating but I never saw her as a hero.  I was into the Starks a bit until my true heroes showed up, Olenna and Margaery.

She freaking sacked Astapor. She may not have burned it to the ground but she sent 8 thousand men running through the streets killing people. We may not have seen it in detail but that was a horrible day in Astapor for ALL. The rich and poor, male and female, old and young, all the citizens. She created many widows and orphans that day. And then she just screwed off. 

I remember seeing that and thinking "Whoa, this bitch is extremely dangerous.."

 I loved the Tyrells because Margaery and Olenna were so good at TALKING. Dany never understood the good cop, bad cop dynamic. It's not Dany who should have told. Jon that his asshole sister is treading on thin ice. It was her staff who should have done that. She failed to delegate properly.

Impulsive.

Just like her brothers.

[RealReality]

9 minutes ago, whyamiwatchingthis said:

The Change.org petition to remake Season 8 is approaching one million. Obviously, nothing will come of this, but I still find solace in it.

LOL, people are so invested.  

[milizard]

12 hours ago, Law Mom said:

No. It is not a retcon, I saw it years ago. You missed it because the moments were very small and overshadowed by all the hero shots. That's okay, but don't gaslight my observations.

Dany was never my favorite character, and I didn't miss anything.  At first I hated this show because it was so incredibly violent all the way around.  (I got more into it after my husband kept watching anyway.) That violence didn't start with Dany.  Some of the favorites--Jaime, Theon, Arya,  and even Sansa a bit, did incredibly violent things.  Oh, Robert, too.  Catelyn.  The Hound.

Lots, and lots of violence to go around.  Some were justified, some sort of redeemed themselves, some regretted it, others didn't. One thing for sure is, Dany wasn't the only one, so nothing was clear-cut for her decent into crossing the line.

ETA:  I should add here that it wasn't out of the question for me that Dany would ultimately burn KL to the ground, but that something more than a moment sitting on a dragon would change her mind about crossing the line that she seemed to have about killing children, at the very least.

Edited May 17, 2019 by milizard

[MJ Frog]

6 minutes ago, MrsR said:

I was into the Starks a bit until my true heroes showed up, Olenna and Margaery.

Man, I LOVE them.

[GiuliettaMasina]

21 minutes ago, MrsR said:

It's not just them, it's people like me saying you should have known better. 

And I'm telling you--I did know better. I never believed Daenarys was a hero, so you can save the lecture. Maybe some of us even liked because she was a gray character? I enjoyed Littlefinger too, and not because I couldn't see what he was. I have three separate degrees in literature (one of them in dramatic literature) and have been performing professionally since middle-school. I understand how to read a scene, thank you.

They did not have Danny make enough poor choices FOR ME to believe her turn from grey to straight-up black. She went street from street methodically killing children, that is not grey--as was pointed out by the show ITSELF through its decision to focus on those people. I never believed Dany was a hero, but the SHOW most certainly did.

Many people think the showrunners justified the turn; that's cool, but please stop saying that those who didn't don't understand storytelling. This is not a small portion of bitter stans, there are lots of people, including professionals, who found this twist unearned.

Quote

I found her story fascinating but I never saw her as a hero.  I was into the Starks a bit until my true heroes showed up, Olenna and Margaery.

C'mon. They murdered a child. If you're chiding people for calling Dany a hero...

Quote

She freaking sacked Astapor. She may not have burned it to the ground but she sent 8 thousand men running through the streets killing people. We may not have seen it in detail but that was a horrible day in Astapor for ALL. The rich and poor, male and female, old and young, all the citizens. She created many widows and orphans that day. And then she just screwed off. 

I remember seeing that and thinking "Whoa, this bitch is extremely dangerous.."

From https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Sack_of_Astapor :

"Dovaogēdys! Āeksia ossēnātās, menti ossēnātās, qilōni pilos lue vale tolvie ossēnātās, yn riñe dōre ōdrikātās. Urnet luo buzdaro tolvio belma pryjātās!

(Unsullied! Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child. Strike the chains off of every slave you see!)"

―Daenerys Targaryen orders the Unsullied to purge Astapor of slavers.

Edit: I love Margery and Olenna, too, but they ain't heroes.

Edited May 17, 2019 by GiuliettaMasina
grammar, clarity

[Athena]

Keep it polite. Do not get personal and do not get into repetitive arguments about the characters or what defines a fiction. Further posts will be hidden and posters will be warned.

[sistermagpie]

To me, the hero edit was absolutely was there, of course. It reflected how Dany was experiencing the story and how we were often experiencing it with her, even if many people did have genuine reservations the whole time wondering if you'd really want this person ruling the world.

The question wasn't that it wasn't there, it was about down the road, who were her antagonists? Sure there were plenty of bad characters, but none that would realistically fare much better than the slavers she burnt to a crisp. She was sacking entire cities with her army and then she had dragons so powerful she had to lock up her power to keep subjects from being eaten. More importantly, there was no situation in Westeros where she'd arrive to find such a clear problem to be solved in such a clear way with a show of force.

The only believable antagonist for this hero was the hero herself. Or the hero's power. She would have to stop herself from pursuing more and more--or be stopped. Because while there were plenty of bad people in the books, this was simply not a story about the slaves finally getting somebody on their side. They were just there to help Dany work out her own relationship to power as a ruler. If the story was about Dany triumphing by winning the iron throne it would just be boring--she'd just power through everybody and be on the throne and then have to deal with the kind of messes she had in the books. 

No problem in Westeros would be solved by putting a far more powerful ruler on the IT just because Cersei is terrible. That's the story in Dany's mind where she imagines there's a great wrong in Westeros that will be righted by her being on the throne, either because it was stolen from her or because she is the most just. But we know that's not true. These people have no particular problem they want her to solve at all, besides just backing her as queen instead of somebody else. So she had to change from hero to something more complicated in Westros. There was no greatest bad guy she was working her way up towards. It was the power that was getting bigger.

Edited May 17, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Snowball II]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

To me, the hero edit was absolutely was there, of course. It reflected how Dany was experiencing the story and how we were often experiencing it with her, even if many people did have genuine reservations the whole time wondering if you'd really want this person ruling the world.

The question wasn't that it wasn't there, it was about down the road, who were her antagonists? Sure there were plenty of bad characters, but none that would realistically fare much better than the slavers she burnt to a crisp. She was sacking entire cities with her army and then she had dragons so powerful she had to lock up her power to keep subjects from being eaten. More importantly, there was no situation in Westeros where she'd arrive to find such a clear problem to be solved in such a clear way with a show of force.

The only believable antagonist for this hero was the hero herself. Or the hero's power. She would have to stop herself from pursuing more and more--or be stopped. Because while there were plenty of bad people in the books, this was simply not a story about the slaves finally getting somebody on their side. They were just there to help Dany work out her own relationship to power as a ruler. If the story was about Dany triumphing by winning the iron throne it would just be boring--she'd just power through everybody and be on the throne and then have to deal with the kind of messes she had in the books. 

No problem in Westeros would be solved by putting a far more powerful ruler on the IT just because Cersei is terrible. That's the story in Dany's mind where she imagines there's a great wrong in Westeros that will be righted by her being on the throne, either because it was stolen from her or because she is the most just. But we know that's not true. These people have no particular problem they want her to solve at all, besides just backing her as queen instead of somebody else. So she had to change from hero to something more complicated in Westros. There was no greatest bad guy she was working her way up towards. It was the power that was getting bigger.

I love reading your posts, Sistermagpie.  They are so thoughtful and intriguing.  I feel like I am getting more out of your analysis of season 8 than what D&D are giving me, lol.