S14.E20: Moriah

[NougatJack]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or, because of the stupid gun with the energy flowing from the shooter to the shoot-ee, Sam will somehow have God powers. Seriously, the only reason I find that doubtful is that it would out-do Jack as the new star.  

And it's doubtful because God wouldn't create a weapon which could transfer his powers to someone else, and then gives said weapon away. 

But, then it would have been funny if Dean would have shot Jack and would have Jack's powers after that. 

[ILoveReading]

Id say that we'll get scenes of Dean, Sam and Cas fighting the Zombies, juxtaposed with Billie giving Jack his 1587th "you're the most specialist snowflake" speech.  Then just before the guys are about to be taken out Jack will show up and stop all the Zombies.

Then Dabb and company will retell 20 classic eps while Jack takes care of anything God related.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

And it's doubtful because God wouldn't create a weapon which could transfer his powers to someone else, and then gives said weapon away. 

But, then it would have been funny if Dean would have shot Jack and would have Jack's powers after that. 

I don't recall him saying anything about transferring powers, although I may indeed have missed that. I thought it just meant whatever damage it inflicted would also be inflicted on the shooter. 

That said, Chuck,  like all moustache-twirling villains,  is absolutely arrogant enough as to never imagine their plan failing, so the gun being used against him wasn't a consideration. 

Which leads me to something else that makes me roll my eyes. He tried to coerce Dean into killing Jack by offering to bring Mary back again. But Dean would be dead. Was he really supposed to be that selfless? Fuck you, Chuck.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or, because of the stupid gun with the energy flowing from the shooter to the shoot-ee, Sam will somehow have God powers. Seriously, the only reason I find that doubtful is that it would out-do Jack as the new star.  

Oh man. I didn't even think of that.  I fully can see this being the case.   

[Aeryn13]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall him saying anything about transferring powers, although I may indeed have missed that. I thought it just meant whatever damage it inflicted would also be inflicted on the shooter. 

That said, Chuck,  like all moustache-twirling villains,  is absolutely arrogant enough as to never imagine their plan failing, so the gun being used against him wasn't a consideration. 

Which leads me to something else that makes me roll my eyes. He tried to coerce Dean into killing Jack by offering to bring Mary back again. But Dean would be dead. Was he really supposed to be that selfless? Fuck you, Chuck.

They didn't say anything about transfering powers, you didn't miss it. I'm just going by their track record of inventing nonsensical bs all the time.  

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There is no way they can survive this without supernatural interference. I fear for my eyeballs in 15x01.

Anyone notice that in among all the zombies racing (or shambling) towards the boys, there are two (middle left) who seem to be strolling in their general direction?

[Katy M]

19 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which leads me to something else that makes me roll my eyes. He tried to coerce Dean into killing Jack by offering to bring Mary back again. But Dean would be dead. Was he really supposed to be that selfless? Fuck you, Chuck.

Well, yes.  Chuck has met Dean.  He knows Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back.  I'm actually surprised that Dean said no. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think anyone has the right to take another life. Self-defense and such is different.  However, if the death penalty resulted in the victim being brought back to life that changes the whole game.

Plus, Jack is an all-powerful being who struggle with the concept of right and wrong.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, yes.  Chuck has met Dean.  He knows Dean sold his soul to bring Sam back.  I'm actually surprised that Dean said no. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think anyone has the right to take another life. Self-defense and such is different.  However, if the death penalty resulted in the victim being brought back to life that changes the whole game.

Plus, Jack is an all-powerful being who struggle with the concept of right and wrong.

Yes, but in this case, Dean had already shown he was willing to die for the greater good. That's why he was there. He stopped when he/they realized something was hinky, and then Chuck tried to sweeten the pot. I'm not surprised Dean said no, knowing that Chuck was full of crap (again and some more). So again I say, fuck you, Dabb  Chuck.

Another reason to hate Chuck and this turn of events, it effectively renders any 'specialness' Dean had (if you believed God considered him the Righteous Man, or the firewall, etc), since "Chuck" is both a dick and a lying liar who lies. I could not hate it more.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Another reason to hate Chuck and this turn of events, it effectively renders any 'specialness' Dean had (if you believed God considered him the Righteous Man, or the firewall, etc), since "Chuck" is both a dick and a lying liar who lies. I could not hate it more.

I agree. I hated hated hated hated hated this episode.

There were literally only 4 things I liked about it.

1. "I'm Dean Winchester and I'm looking for the devil's son."  Totally reminded me of Simon Said.

2. Dean smashing Chuck's guitar.  Thank you, Dean, for doing something about my frustration about Chuck showing up.

3. Sam shooting Chuck.  I realize it didn't do any good, but see number 2.

4. All the ghosts that they killed in prior seasons coming back.  Despite everything else, I'm allowing myself to be hopefully intrigued by that.

[Castiels Cat]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, but in this case, Dean had already shown he was willing to die for the greater good. That's why he was there. He stopped when he/they realized something was hinky, and then Chuck tried to sweeten the pot. I'm not surprised Dean said no, knowing that Chuck was full of crap (again and some more). So again I say, fuck you, Dabb  Chuck.

Another reason to hate Chuck and this turn of events, it effectively renders any 'specialness' Dean had (if you believed God considered him the Righteous Man, or the firewall, etc), since "Chuck" is both a dick and a lying liar who lies. I could not hate it more.

Dean stopped IMO because he was able to see Jack as something other than a monster when he knelt before him and said he deserved it. This was someone he loved like family and thought of as a son and he remembered that in that moment and could not pull the trigger despite his very righteous anger and grief over Mary.

The something hinky part came in during the deal making when Chuck started intervening...

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He stopped when he/they realized something was hinky, and then Chuck tried to sweeten the pot. I'm not surprised Dean said no, knowing that Chuck was full of crap (again and some more

Which was the second that Jack knelt down and accepted his fate.

You could literally see his spidey sense kick in there. 

He may have also realized that there was enough humanity left in Jack for Jack to know and understand that he had to be put down, but IMO, it was more than just that to him.

The whole situation seemed to feel wrong/off to him, at that very moment.

To me, Chuck sensed that his control of the situation was beginning to slip away and it was then that he tried to coerce Dean-which just made Dean dig his heels in more-but not simply because he loved Jack like a son.

It was Chuck's attempted coercion that sealed the deal for him, IMO.

Dabb's Jack has a been a weird amalgamation of predominantly the Sam and Cas characters to me, ever since he was introduced.

I think that here, he was going for Jack somewhat mirroring the "monster" that SoullessSam and Godstiel were and whom Dean also knew had to be put down in order to keep humanity safe, and no matter the emotional cost to himself.

The thing I liked best about this one is that Dean stayed IC in this one by never wavering from that mindset until the very end when he realized that even though Jack was indeed still a monster, something about the entire situation smelled/felt wrong to Dean at the moment that Jack accepted his fate-and not just to the human father-figure Dean(which IMO, Dean never lost throughout everything concerning SoullessJack), but also to HunterDean-which was far more important, at that very moment, than father figure Dean's feelings.

I think that it could have somewhat been a parallel to Brother's Keeper in one way and that is  in that we were once again given an incredibly powerful supernatural entity who was trying to manipulate Dean into going through with actually killing a member of his family under false pretenses. 

Heh. Maybe we'll even find out that it was indeed OG Death wearing Chuck's face in this entire episode and that's why we were shown Billie in the Empty at the end.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Which was the second that Jack knelt down and accepted his fate.

You could literally see his spidey sense kick in there. 

He may have also realized that there was enough humanity left in Jack for Jack to know and understand that he had to be put down, but IMO, it was more than just that to him.

The whole situation seemed to feel wrong/off to him, at that very moment.

To me, Chuck sensed that his control of the situation was beginning to slip away and it was then that he tried to coerce Dean-which just made Dean dig his heels in more-but not simply because he loved Jack like a son.

It was Chuck's attempted coercion that sealed the deal for him, IMO.

Dabb's Jack has a been a weird amalgamation of predominantly the Sam and Cas characters to me, ever since he was introduced.

I think that here, he was going for Jack somewhat mirroring the "monster" that SoullessSam and Godstiel were and whom Dean also knew had to be put down in order to keep humanity safe, and no matter the emotional cost to himself.

The thing I liked best about this one is that Dean stayed IC in this one by never wavering from that mindset until the very end when he realized that even though Jack was indeed still a monster, something about the entire situation smelled/felt wrong to Dean at the moment that Jack accepted his fate-and not just to the human father-figure Dean(which IMO, Dean never lost throughout everything concerning SoullessJack), but also to HunterDean-which was far more important, at that very moment, than father figure Dean's feelings.

I think that it could have somewhat been a parallel to Brother's Keeper in one way and that is  in that we were once again given an incredibly powerful supernatural entity who was trying to manipulate Dean into going through with actually killing a member of his family under false pretenses. 

Heh. Maybe we'll even find out that it was indeed OG Death wearing Chuck's face in this entire episode and that's why we were shown Billie in the Empty at the end.

There are definitely parallels with Sam's and Cas' storylines, especially Sam's. I think Sam's discomfort at the end of Jack in the Box is essentially his realization of these parallels and seeing perhaps how close Dean may have come to killing him.

I did like that Jack allowed the writers to revisit this emotional arc without the Sam-Dean baggage however it could have been better done and without Jack becoming such a ridiculous deus-ex-snowflake of a character. Also the whiplash of Jack's character development gave me a migraine from disbelief.

I say this as someone who did not dislike the character and who liked the relationship and mirroring between him and Dean. I expected Jack (I want to help Kline) to monkey with Dean's head and somehow both "fix" the Michael problem, break bad from soullessnessand release Lucifer in the longterm. I was not sure of the mechanics because I  did not see how soul magic was enough This was just before Ouroboros aired mind you... woosh. What a ride... what a mess... what a hot mess.

I think Original Death is more sympathetic that Chuck to be Frank. Death is always about the natural order. Sam using the BotD and removing the Mark apparently went against things and Death wanted him stopped. Makes perfect sense.

I do not understand why people think Chuck is the good guy. Everybody that has spent time with him is bonkers. He is obviously manipulative. He basically told the one guy who blames himself for everything (Dean) that everything is his responsibility despite the fact that he is just a human which is just sadistic.

Chuck is clearly not a good guy. Metatron modeled himself after Chuck except that he was hands on where Dean was concerned. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[SueB]

Listen to the WoL's podcast, Jules reminded us that Motorhead's "God was never on your side." played over the teaser reel.  Which she believes that they were always headed to this finale this season - regardless of S15 being declared 'the end'.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2019 at 5:42 PM, SueB said:

Listen to the WoL's podcast, Jules reminded us that Motorhead's "God was never on your side." played over the teaser reel.  Which she believes that they were always headed to this finale this season - regardless of S15 being declared 'the end'.

Agreed. I never saw Chuck as good. Telling they guy who habitually thinks everything I'd his fault you are the firewall, everything is your responsibility... in other words everything is your fault was a supreme dick move. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Agreed. I never saw Chuck as good. Telling they guy who habitually thinks everything I'd his fault you are the firewall, everything is your responsibility... in other words everything is your fault was a supreme dick move. 

Sadly, it used to be Dean`s one claim to something approaching validation, outside of being the family`s maid (well, Mary couldn`t manage even that). So by making Chuck evil, even that is gone now. 

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sadly, it used to be Dean`s one claim to something approaching validation, outside of being the family`s maid (well, Mary couldn`t manage even that). So by making Chuck evil, even that is gone now. 

Worse yet, Dean's strong faith in TFW is now a myth if we are to believe Chuck's statements in this episode that he has been setting things up for the Winchesters since the beginning for his "entertainment". That's worse than failed drafts, IMO. Screw Chuck and the horse he rode in on!!! 😞

[millennium]

Just saw this episode for the first time.   I started to read all the posts but when I saw opinions were all over the place I just skipped to posting because I was impatient to blurt out what a great episode this was.

The confrontation between Chuck and Sam and Dean, where all the big questions are answered and we find out that life is just a shitshow with an audience of one, was epic.   It didn't need special effects, apocalyptic battles, explosions or darkness filling the sky.   The horror came from Sam and Dean's realization that they and the whole world have been played.   

The ending was old-school Supernatural, complete with one of the best songs ever used in this series (a song I never heard before but loved from the first lines).   The situation reminded me a bit of the finale of Angel, with the heroes facing a legion of monsters.   But finally an ending with no cages, no archangels, no bullshit (well, okay, a little bullshit with Billie and I wish Jack had stayed dead.  Still. )   

FWIW, I suspect Chuck isn't really God.

Edited June 7, 2019 by millennium

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

FWIW, I suspect Chuck isn't really God.

The only way I will accept this really being Chuck/God is if Amara immediately shows up and kicks his ass for being such a dick. My actual hope is that it was Gabriel (LOL!Dead) back and messing with them for leaving him in the AU. Sadly, my belief is that what we saw is what we'll get and they'll drag this lame-ass plot to the bitter ending.

[ahrtee]

Well, Chuck's speech fits  Dabb's (and Kripke's) idea:  the Writer is God.  He creates the stories and the storylines, adds and removes characters as needed to fit the story he wants to tell, and what the characters (or other viewers) want isn't relevant. 

Basically, Dabb-as-Chuck is reminding everyone that this is just a show.  He's in charge, and the characters (and actors!), while they may take over and do things he didn't expect or want, are just his creations.  The writer creates the scenarios he puts them in.  They just react.  And when he gets bored (or pissed at the characters) he can drop it and move on to another world/show.  

Most good writers have been in that situation:  if you create good, strong, realistic characters, there will come a time when they won't do what the writer wants--they'll sit back and say, "no, that's not me (or that's not logical.)   I won't do that."  And a good writer will go with that and follow where the characters are leading.  A bad writer will just change the characters to fit what he wants them to do.  Or create a scenario where there's no logical way out except for Author-ex-Machina, so they're forced to do what he wants.  *sigh*  

[Bali]

Finally watched. And I have so many thoughts. The good: Dean not shooting Jack. Chuck's line about the horrible BMOL. And his line about liking the original Death more than Billie. (Yeah, he was awesome.)

The bad- well, the rest of it. Even Little Jack Body's blackened out eyes looked bad. I'm going back multiple seasons here, and am fuzzy on my memories. But there was an episode before they locked Lucifer in the box, where they were at a hotel with a bunch of gods. And one of them kept saying that they were relevant before the Christian god came along. 

I'm having a hard time with this, but do you think that the show is going to go with the Christian god not being the creator of the universe? I mean they've done a pretty fine job of trampling religion here, maybe they will go there. 

If all of the good that they've done is undone- then Jodi is going to have to battle her husband and dead kid again. Don't like that. Bad Dabb. Bad Dabb.

I'm going to cross reference a Big Bang quote. Sheldon is complaining about Alfa's being cancelled and says that with Heroes they just lowered the quality until no one cared that it went off the air. That's kinda what I feel like Dabb has done.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, Bali said:

he good: Dean not shooting Jack.

I count that amongst the bad. I was screaming at the TV so hard "JUST SHOOT HIM."  I was on vaca visiting my parents and my mom said, "He's not going to shoot him.  Calm down."

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 11:05 AM, Wateroflife said:

I wish I could like this more than once. I totally agree, about Jack, about Cas (who I really dislike now, thanks Dabb), and who wants too see the Winchesters fight their greatest hits again? Talk about a lack of creativity on Dabb's part. It's like he's doubling down on his bad decision to bring back Mary, Bobby and Charlie. This fully convinces me that he doesn't have a single creative idea in his head, but  can only retread what others came up with before. He really is like a bad fan fic writer. Hell, by now, all those baddies are a cakewalk for the boys (uh, they know how to defeat them now, where's the dramatic tension in that?) and as others have said, taken out of their original story context, who cares?

Edit: upon further reflection, all this just makes me believe some super powered ally (probably Jack, groan, but maybe Amara?) will swoop in and fix it all with a snap. This is just a hiatus cliffhanger that won't actually affect season 15. Less stupid, Dabb, but hacky storytelling nonetheless.

I would think that Dabb would NOT want us to relive Sam and Dean's greatest hits. Because it's just going to fully reinforce how bad this show is under his hand. 

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 10:41 AM, Lastcall said:

I’m in the “they should have never made God a character” camp also. However, since they went there, I saw Chuck as a God with good intentions and who’s creations were very flawed. Any time he was actively involved with them, things got worse. So he played a long game nudging humanity along until they became the creations he intended. Earth was the proving ground and those that could truly get along and be what Chuck intended would go to the place he envisioned...heaven. 

If this version stays then we have an entirely different show. It becomes Lovecraft, impossibly powerful cosmic entities that care nothing about humanity. At best, we are entertainment and even Heaven will fall when Chuck no longer wants to watch.    

Maybe that’s where this is all going. The creations kill the creator and choose their own destiny. They try to become the God they wanted but find the goal impossible to achieve so the cycle repeats itself. Man that’s a nihilistic way to go if they play it that way.

I am also in the "they should have never made God a character" camp. At least I think I am. I flip flop a lot on this. I mean, if there are demons and Hell, (or evil) then there should be an ultimate good. It's balance. There is good and evil in this world. (Our world- not the fictional SPN one) 

I didn't like the prophet is God because that never made sense to me. I mean, there were just too many questions. Like- if Chuck is God, he could have any woman he wanted and he chose Becky? Oookkkkaay.

And one other question I have is: If Jack is the antichrist, okay. But can you even have an antichrist without the Christ? (AND NO- I DO NOT WANT THIS SHOW TO DO A CHRIST SCENARIO. I can not express that loud enough). 

I guess I'm just of the opinion that it can't ALL be evil- that is boring. There must be good. Mankind can't be the ultimate good in the universe, because mankind is too much of both. And with this sudden abrupt hissy fit of Chuck's, and there is no longer a point in fighting for good because it doesn't exist. 

[Katy M]

41 minutes ago, Bali said:

I didn't like the prophet is God because that never made sense to me. I mean, there were just too many questions. Like- if Chuck is God, he could have any woman he wanted and he chose Becky? Oookkkkaay.

I'm more bothered about the fact that we saw him when nobody else was around and he was having a headache and he was drunk. 

42 minutes ago, Bali said:

And one other question I have is: If Jack is the antichrist, okay. But can you even have an antichrist without the Christ? (AND NO- I DO NOT WANT THIS SHOW TO DO A CHRIST SCENARIO. I can not express that loud enough). 

I thought Jesse was the antichrist.  But, one hundred percent second your shouting and shout it along with you.

[ILoveReading]

I think the reason I hate this episode so much is that it now taints the entire series.

I tried to participate in the summer rewatch but all I could think of is what's the point.  Every victory the Winchester had, big and small is pointless. 

Plus, given the fact that Chuck has pulled all the strings we haven't been watching the Winchester's journey for the past 14 years, we've been watching Chucks.

Words will never be able to express how much I loath Dabb.

[Casseiopeia]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the reason I hate this episode so much is that it now taints the entire series.

I tried to participate in the summer rewatch but all I could think of is what's the point.  Every victory the Winchester had, big and small is pointless. 

Plus, given the fact that Chuck has pulled all the strings we haven't been watching the Winchester's journey for the past 14 years, we've been watching Chucks.

Words will never be able to express how much I loath Dabb.

What do you want to bet that S15 is going to be a redemption arc for Chuck.

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What do you want to bet that S15 is going to be a redemption arc for Chuck. 

Just the thought of that makes me ill. When the fuck are the people running this show going to realize that this is the story of the Winchesters - not Jack, not Lucifer/Nickifer, not Mary, not Faux Bobby, Charlie, Cas, not Michael, not Gabriel, and yes, certainly not a Chuck/God that negates the entire concept of TFW. I'm with you @ILoveReading, I loathe Dabb every bit as much as you do!!!!

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Just the thought of that makes me ill. When the fuck are the people running this show going to realize that this is the story of the Winchesters - not Jack, not Lucifer/Nickifer, not Mary, not Faux Bobby, Charlie, Cas, not Michael, not Gabriel, and yes, certainly not a Chuck/God that negates the entire concept of TFW. I'm with you @ILoveReading, I loathe Dabb every bit as much as you do!!!!

Unfortunately  they have run out of time to realize that the show doesn't work unless it's about the Winchesters.  That ship sailed in the S11 finale.

[Smad]

Watched this again in preparation for the new Season. I don't have faith in these writers/showrunner but if they can flip the entire concept of God and 'what we know' on it's head, then I would applaud them.

People in the Supernatural verse generally associate Light=good and Dark=bad. Who did they get that from? God. But as far back as S4/5 we have seen that God is questionable at best, a villain at worst. He created humans and generally they are good. But he also gave humans such a coding that could lead to world wars. Sure one could argue that's free will but he could have coded humans differently so that an impulse/drive for such evil doesn't exist. Guess he found it entertaining to see his creations wage wars (even in his name) on each other. That's not to mention world hunger, murder, rape, abuse, diseases etc..

He doesn't mind the occasional apocalypse. He also let the creation of hell/purgatory with it's demons and ghosts and monsters happen when he could easily write it out. Purgatory was necessary to contain his early experiments but he wrote in ways in which it can be entered/exited which lets these monsters lose on his fave creation (humans). He could have easily written purgetory out or make it impenetrable. It's not just Dean and Sam and their family and friends that were dealt a harsh fate for the entertainment of God but the whole world.

We know he created many worlds, his failed scripts, and abandoned them. That's billions upon billions of people (since we know there are other Sams and Deans).

I was thinking back to S11 and Amara and Chuck. There were plenty of things that should have raised red flags all over the place. Her questioning the concept of faith, that people belive in the 'word of God' (bible) without actually knowing if any of it is true, that they supposedly don't get to see God until they die. Amara only killed people to get him to reveal himself, not for shits and giggles or entertainment (like God) or because she liked killing. She foolishly thought he cared about his creation. She didn't even kill the Angels despite them smiting her, just shook them up a little. Amara was basically the most harmless 'big bad' the show has ever done. But she was only the big bad because 'this is Chuck's story, not hers'. He was the victor in their original battle so he wrote history and because of that people associate darkness=bad. Hilarious how all the players flogged to God during the Chuck vs Amara battle even though God's body count was imessurable (counting from creation to today). But that's because of the believe (light/dark, God=good, propaganda) instilled in them which came directly from God. As Amara would say 'that's your story, not mine' (aka 'I know the truth.'). And she showed more appreciation for God's creation than he did during the entire show. Lets also not forget her selfless gift to Dean, whereas Chuck wanted Dean to kill someone (and Dean in the process) and reward him the same gift if he does as ordered.

The way he treats his family. Lucifer might have been envious of mankind but we learn the Mark of Cain made it worse. We also know the mark can be transferred. So why didn't God order him to give the mark to his most obedient son, Michael. And then sit down and have a chat with Lucifer. Instead he let his son get worse and when it got to be too much for God to deal with, he dumped Lucifer. Same with Amara. Sure she didn't understand why he would need something other than her and destroyed what he created as a result. But again that's family stuff that you can hash out with time, and these guys had millions of years. Deal with that and then create together. Instead of doing that, God decided to get rid of her. Probably wasn't interested in doing it together anyway which he confirms in S11. So who is really the bad God/Goddess in this scenario?

So if they make the story in S15 about God being 'The Monster at the end of the Book' and everything the people in the Supernatural verse believe gets turned on it's head...that's something I could be on board for. And God at the end gets swapped out for someone better (and it better not be Jack because that would suck and make no sense). However, I literally have no faith in these writers so even if they did that, it would probably still suck. And if they take the even easier out by saying 'that wasn't Chuck', well then go eff yourselfs writers.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Smad

[BabySpinach]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Watched this again in preparation for the new Season. I don't have faith in these writers/showrunner but if they can flip the entire concept of God and 'what we know' on it's head, then I would applaud them.

People in the Supernatural verse generally associate Light=good and Dark=bad. Who did they get that from? God. But as far back as S4/5 we have seen that God is questionable at best, a villain at worst. He created humans and generally they are good. But he also gave humans such a coding that could lead to world wars. Sure one could argue that's free will but he could have coded humans differently so that an impulse/drive for such evil doesn't exist. Guess he found it entertaining to see his creations wage wars (even in his name) on each other. That's not to mention world hunger, murder, rape, abuse, diseases etc..

He doesn't mind the occasional apocalypse. He also let the creation of hell/purgatory with it's demons and ghosts and monsters happen when he could easily write it out. Purgatory was necessary to contain his early experiments but he wrote in ways in which it can be entered/exited which lets these monsters lose on his fave creation (humans). He could have easily written purgetory out or make it impenetrable. It's not just Dean and Sam and their family and friends that were dealt a harsh fate for the entertainment of God but the whole world.

We know he created many worlds, his failed scripts, and abandoned them. That's billions upon billions of people (since we know there are other Sams and Deans).

I was thinking back to S11 and Amara and Chuck. There were plenty of things that should have raised red flags all over the place. Her questioning the concept of faith, that people belive in the 'word of God' (bible) without actually knowing if any of it is true, that they supposedly don't get to see God until they die. Amara only killed people to get him to reveal himself, not for shits and giggles or entertainment (like God) or because she liked killing. She foolishly thought he cared about his creation. She didn't even kill the Angels despite them smiting her, just shook them up a little. Amara was basically the most harmless 'big bad' the show has ever done. But she was only the big bad because 'this is Chuck's story, not hers'. He was the victor in their original battle so he wrote history and because of that people associate darkness=bad. Hilarious how all the players flogged to God during the Chuck vs Amara battle even though God's body count was imessurable (counting from creation to today). But that's because of the believe (light/dark, God=good, propaganda) instilled in them which came directly from God. As Amara would say 'that's your story, not mine' (aka 'I know the truth.'). And she showed more appreciation for God's creation than he did during the entire show. Lets also not forget her selfless gift to Dean, whereas Chuck wanted Dean to kill someone (and Dean in the process) and reward him the same gift if he does as ordered.

The way he treats his family. Lucifer might have been envious of mankind but we learn the Mark of Cain made it worse. We also know the mark can be transferred. So why didn't God order him to give the mark to his most obedient son, Michael. And then sit down and have a chat with Lucifer. Instead he let his son get worse and when it got to be too much for God to deal with, he dumped Lucifer. Same with Amara. Sure she didn't understand why he would need something other than her and destroyed what he created as a result. But again that's family stuff that you can hash out with time, and these guys had millions of years. Deal with that and then create together. Instead of doing that, God decided to get rid of her. Probably wasn't interested in doing it together anyway which he confirms in S11. So who is really the bad God/Goddess in this scenario?

So if they make the story in S15 about God being 'The Monster at the end of the Book' and everything the people in the Supernatural verse believe gets turned on it's head...that's something I could be on board for. And God at the end gets swapped out for someone better (and it better not be Jack because that would suck and make no sense). However, I literally have no faith in these writers so even if they did that, it would probably still suck. And if they take the even easier out by saying 'that wasn't Chuck', well then go eff yourselfs writers.

Yeah, God being a dick has been baked into the show ever since it was revealed that he existed. I'd always assumed that he truly did create humans in his image ie. he's at least as flawed as they are. And a human as omnipotent God would be exactly that much of a callous screw-up. 

But I'd much preferred it when Chuck was framed as not intentionally malevolent and his sister had the justified vengeance. It was a more interesting and complex avenue than having one side as pure evil and the other as pure good. 

On a tangentially-related note, I DESPISE how the Winchester's many floutings of destiny and fate have now been retconned to have STILL been part of Chuck's big plan. It's basically Dabb yelling, "Now it's time for the REAL version of the story! Fuck those far superior previous seasons, it's my show (to ruin) now!" Egotistical hack. 

[Smad]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

But I'd much preferred it when Chuck was framed as not intentionally malevolent and his sister had the justified vengeance. It was a more interesting and complex avenue than having one side as pure evil and the other as pure good.

They should have made God amoral, as Amara was/is. Amoral is really the only way to go with these primordial beings because they are NOT human. They are way above it all. However since the show decided to humanize all these billions/millions of years old beings (for entertainment), there is no choice but for some in the audience (myself included) to judge them by human standards. And to me by human standards God is evil (Amara however is not). Just thinking about all the good people that died during the run of the show, whether it's victims of supernatural threats/monsters or family/friends of the Winchesters. Nevermind the boys themselves. If God decided to step back because his creation didn't evolve due to too much influence on his part, fine. And only stepping in when it looks like his creation gets wiped out but not caring what happens at large because 'free will', that's amoral. And that's fine.

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Yeah, God being a dick has been baked into the show ever since it was revealed that he existed. I'd always assumed that he truly did create humans in his image ie. he's at least as flawed as they are. And a human as omnipotent God would be exactly that much of a callous screw-up.

I thought the Archangels were a perfect image of God, they all represented aspects of his 'personality'. And for humans it seems he threw these aspects in a mixer and voilà. Really should have fine tuned that but maybe he can't because as you say, he's not perfect himself. And just like us, he gets bored easy and throws the script away and starts over.

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

On a tangentially-related note, I DESPISE how the Winchester's many floutings of destiny and fate have now been retconned to have STILL been part of Chuck's big plan. It's basically Dabb yelling, "Now it's time for the REAL version of the story! Fuck those far superior previous seasons, it's my show (to ruin) now!" Egotistical hack.

Mmm I don't know. They can't really wipe the past away (not for me anyway) despite basically saying 'God wrote EVERYTHING'. Because we know free will has changed God's story during the run of the show, especially when it comes to Dean.

As Chuck said in S4: 'Wait, this isn't supposed to happen. You guys aren't supposed to be here, you are not in this story.'

Sure they could say that was just God acting the part but we know the Supernatural books are the story of the boys in-verse, so Dean (and Cas) overwrote God's original script by using free will.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Smad

[Cambion]

So, I watched this episode 3 times today.  I just had to keep going back to try to figure some things out.  i'm probably going to have to watch it a few more times to actually get it all, but after just spending hours reading the posts here (I waited until after my rewatch) I just have a couple of things to mention in an effort to help solidify my thoughts.

I like the beginning, the not lying bit was great, and by the second time I was chanting along with some of the characters "I hate everyone"  "I'm the stapler Queen."  etc.  It was nice, after all the over dramatic high school angst of some of the last episodes (I rewatched all of s14 in the last few days) to have a little bit of humor.  That is one of the good things from earlier seasons that I think has fallen by the wayside and it was nice to have some good humor again.  (forgot to add, and how this went down is totally Jack who doesn't get ANYTHING because everybody forgets he's 2 going on 20 and should never be left unsupervised. ) 

 I also applauded Sam (or anyone for that matter) remembering that Dean is, in fact, a geek.  A speech I actually expected back in Mint Condition, but, you know, whatevs.  

I loved that Dean smashed the guitar.  He is so done with Chuck playing with their lives and everyone else's, but mostly in the "where were you when..." way.  Sam is still talking to Chuck about it, which is totally Sam.  So perfect characterizations of both brothers, IMO; Sam wants to think it out, Dean wants to give the situation a slap upside the head.  Also, I think he realized that Chuck was going to enjoy concertizing for them and simply wanted to deny him that because he's just so done with Chuck.  So huzzah for finally seeing some core characterizations for the boys.

I noticed the Dean in the corner bit, and he had to tell Sam hey over here.  Whether intentional or not (probably not) another great characterization of their usual positions.  Dean makes the hard decision then tries to bring Sam around to see his point of view (see him in the corner) and they discuss it.  So that really worked for me.

The gun -- totally saw that one coming as being a two way street.  I'm not overly surprised with Chuck being "evil" (although I don't think he is evil, per se, but more on that in a minute).  He has, since "the Monster at the End of this Book" characterized himself as being cruel and capricious and everything he's done since then show it.  So that the gun would take out both Jack and the shooter, Yahtzee!  He said it, "I burned Jess for the sake of literary symmetry."  Of course he did.  it's all about seeing how hard he can make things and will the people he presses push through or not. 

sideline I'll be quick.  I was brought up in a xtian religion and whenever something bad happened to someone the answer was that "god is testing you".  You know, god only gives you as much as you can handle, you just wish he didn't trust you so much.   I never had much respect for that -- or a few other things in the xtian cosmology - which is why I now worship old gods who, frankly, have been bashed on this show, too, so I feel your pain for the xtians among you feeling that making god evil is somewhat offensive.  But I ignore it because there's no reason to take this kind of thing personally, JMHO, it's a story, not an insult.

Okay, so, if god is testing good people, or even simply stands back and lets bad things happen to good people then what we're seeing Chuck do is a logical culmination.  

Now, do I think the writers got there knowingly and on purpose?  No, I do not.  I think they're going for the shock.  Over the past month or so, I've rewatched from the pilot and tried to pay attention to which writer penned my favorite episodes (and the ones I least like and frankly skip over, or have so much Nickifer that I have to fast forward to the good parts, and I'm OCD so that is PAINFUL for me!  My OCD is screaming that I must watch every. single. second.).  To my surprise a number of the favorite ones were written by Dabb.  Most of those with another writer but a couple on his own.  Not to say he's good, because my assessment of him is that if he still lived in the same city as his parents he'd be inhabiting their basement hollaring up the stairs for mom to nuke him a hotpocket every so often.  He's lazy.  And when he had a show runner who pushed him, and guided him, he was able to do the job.  But know he's the boss so it's lowest common denominator and laziness and mom where's my hot pocket!

I'm not saying anyone here is bad, but I honestly think you're giving him more credit than he deserves in some ways.  I think he's too lazy, and on the stupid side and doesn't really put as much effort into making nefarious plans as y'all might give him credit for.  Which -- as he is now the Chuck of the story -- fits.  Chuck is having a tantrum, cause that's how Dabb operates.  Somebody says or does something and he has a tantrum and writes everybody into a hole.  Then he visits tumblr or his twitter feed and the sycophants prop up his ego and he tries to write everyone out of the hole.  Problem is, he's not very good at it because writing a show means you have to make plans and you have to remember things  and you should consult your show bible (and why the flying purple f*ck don't they have one for this show, is what I wanna know!)  and that is all too much work for him and where the f*ck is that hot pocket Mooooooommmm!

Am I making excuses for him? No.  Am I defending him? Hell no.  I just think he considers people hating on him as an ego prop too because he perceives it as power to make people react and I won't give him the satisfaction.  Mostly because I loathe the Voluntarily Stupid and I think he's demonstrated that in ample measure.  

So, anyway, I didn't keep it real short sorry, I think we'll see a poorly written way out of the tantrum hole for both Chuck and Dabb.  So, not super high hopes for next season.  So, I'll plan to be very disappointed and perhaps there will be some places where I'll be pleasantly surprised.  🙂

Okay, so, I think that Dean ultimately didn't shoot Jack because he heard Sam ask Chuck if he was enjoying this.  And in true Dean fashion, did the exact opposite because he will never ever ever give anyone the satisfaction of manipulating him.  Also why getting mom back was no hook.  A) he'd be dead, so what would be the point, that's no prize for him, and B) NONONONONO his mom was NOT his hero.  And whoever wrote that for him to say should be drawn and quartered.  His dad was his hero.  Duh.  (Again Dabb shows us that he doesn't actually watch the show he writes for.  I told ya, lazy.)

Sam shooting Chuck - finally Sam as realized that words will no longer cut it.  Sam is also an excellent shot.  He did not miss.  I think he hit Chuck exactly where he was aiming. I think A) Sam didn't want to die and B) that was a great way to get Chuck's attention.  His miscalculation was in thinking that Chuck was an adult --Sam's been giving Chuck a little too much credit, but since the beginning of the angels/god thing he's been a little in awe and I very willingly give him a pass because that desire to always see the good in everyone is one of the things I love most about Sam.  Chuck is a toddler, I think someone mentioned the Star Trek episode about the parent coming after the "god" and scolding him for breaking his toys.  Bingo! That's how he's acting.  I doubt we'll see that kind of SL play out, but that's how he's acting.

And the bits people have been saying about the end, where are the numerous weapons they've always got, ditto, why didn't they high tail it to the cars instead of standing there watching zombie after zombie popping out of the ground.  I mean, come on, none of them are idiots and they couldn't see that was a Bad Idea (tm)?  (Well, or they need bungees, but now I'm just getting silly and have written too much.)

So, at this point I give it about a C but I could go either way after a couple more rewatches.

Also, I know Jack took Michaels grace, but before he could do that he should have dropped dead from using up his own soul.  You know the one that was keeping him alive.  *smh*  I know, I know, LOLcanon. 

Go to sleep Cambion, it's 4 o'clock in the morning.  lol

Edited September 24, 2019 by Cambion

[Lemuria]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:34 AM, Katy M said:

I'm more bothered about the fact that we saw him when nobody else was around and he was having a headache and he was drunk. 

Not to mention, he called a brothel for $20,000 (I think the figure was) of prostitutes, when there was no one there to hear it except the audience. Really, Dabb?

[Lemuria]

8 hours ago, Cambion said:

and I very willingly give him a pass because that desire to always see the good in everyone is one of the things I love most about Sam

Unless their name is Benny. Or they’re Dean’s daughter. Or...

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Unless their name is Benny. Or they’re Dean’s daughter. Or...

Or, you know, Dean.

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, Cambion said:

 I was brought up in a xtian religion and whenever something bad happened to someone the answer was that "god is testing you".  You know, god only gives you as much as you can handle, you just wish he didn't trust you so much.   I never had much respect for that -- or a few other things in the xtian cosmology - which is why I now worship old gods who, frankly, have been bashed on this show, too, so I feel your pain for the xtians among you feeling that making god evil is somewhat offensive.  But I ignore it because there's no reason to take this kind of thing personally, JMHO, it's a story, not an insult.

So was I and while I know that this is supposed to be "entertainment" it still annoys me. It's not offensive per say but I'm so done with everything representative of God, Heaven and goodness being on par or worse than most depictions of evil that we've seen on this show. Kripke said years ago that he was reluctant to introduce angels and wouldn't go so far as to write in God or Jesus and I wish that the showrunners/writers after him felt the same.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or, you know, Dean.

Oh snap! 🤣🤣🤣

[Cambion]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Unless their name is Benny. Or they’re Dean’s daughter. Or...

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or, you know, Dean.

Um, this is why I shouldn't write posts in the middle of the night during insomnia.  I don't think my I love that about Sam comment was understood the way I meant it.  I didn't mean that it made me him all sweet and cute or whatevs, but rather, as he seems to respect  intellectualism ( all the school tropes, getting a nearly perfect lsat score etc) it's a great, and very human, flaw for him to have.  I like characters that are like real people, and these two are.  I also love a lot of Dean's flaws, because they make him human.  With Jensen's good looks and the way that Dean is so good at playing the hero, not knowing that he sings karaoke so badly and eats like a grade schooler and plays the same 5 albums over and over and over makes him too 2-D and stereo typical alpha male.

So, I love that Sam has such a human flaw.  He doesn't do it unless it serves him, as ya'll pointed out, but that's pretty true to life, too, ya know? And people IRL that you know like that, I'm sure you will find act the same way.

Anyway, I love the characters, I don't always love everything they do.  And just to round out my opinion, Sam not liking Benny had absolutely nothing to do with Benny.  It had to do with Dean killed Amy and Sam wanted to get some payback.  Dean took Sam's friend, so Sam wanted to take his.  Plus, he was feeling all kinds of guilty because he didn't look for Dean and now Dean had someone he was close to who very well could have replaced Sam.  Like someone said in another thread.  Sam needs Dean, but doesn't want him, and Dean wants Sam but doesn't need him.  There was also a parable about loyalty there, too, (not intentional I'm sure):  Sam gives loyalty when it is demanded of him, Dean gives it freely out of respect.  Again, that's not a Sam bad, Dean good equation, it's just how some people are.  And Dean will always put his family first -- including the not blood ones he finds -- no matter how much they beat him down.  That's what draws me to that character, I understand that.  I've lived it and am still living that kind of "family" life.

Anyway, good observations you guys, but I did want to clarify because I sorta felt like you thought I was being dumb.  And nope, just too tired to think straight.

🙂

[Cambion]

6 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

So was I and while I know that this is supposed to be "entertainment" it still annoys me. It's not offensive per say but I'm so done with everything representative of God, Heaven and goodness being on par or worse than most depictions of evil that we've seen on this show. Kripke said years ago that he was reluctant to introduce angels and wouldn't go so far as to write in God or Jesus and I wish that the showrunners/writers after him felt the same.

IA.  It annoys me, too, and not just for my pagan gods.  While angels being dicks with wings is amusing, it really does dig at deep seated beliefs that most of us have.  Again, my apologies for writing when my brain wasn't fully on because I didn't actually get out what I mean: I just choose not to find insult in it because I'd rather pick my battles.  And being insulted because what someone thinks it's good story material to bash on something people keep close to their hearts is not an intentional insult in my mind.  i.e. I don't get offended by other shows characterizing geeks/nerds as one dimensional mouth breathers who live in their parent's basement, (Even though, at one point, that was totally me) because it's a waste of my time and precious energy to be offended.

Also, there is totally a part of me who doesn't have a real emotional investment in the god of Abraham anymore, so of course that will bother me less, and since season after season has bashed xtianity in one way or another, the isolated episodes about older gods have less impact.  Well, unless you figure in that S and D have pretty much killed all of them and Chuck is still kicking, but I digress.  You are totally good to be annoyed and/or offended and I empathize with you.

I also would be happier without God and with it being just angels versus demons.  I think it would be more interesting if God was totally hands off.  At least, I think, there's some different story potential there that is more interesting than Chuck snapping his fingers and lying about stuff he doesn't want to do in order to see his monkeys dance.  For a while there it was kinda like the demons were actually more helpful than the angels and I thought that was a fun juxtaposition, but now, it's like there are no good forces, no cavalry that humans can depend on, everybody is a dick on all sides.  Or, to put it in real life terms, everybody is more worried about themselves than anyone else.  Well, except for Dean, and somebody needs to slap that boy upside the head.

🙂

[FlickChick]

On 4/26/2019 at 2:54 AM, starfishka said:

I love that song from Motorhead.

I just finished my re-watch of the season. After the finale ended, I put on the CC and saw the words to the song. (Before that, I was watching the so-called action, not really listening to the lyrics) Talk about on the nose: "God Was Never on Your Side". Wow, the song really brings it home. And since we know that in SN, "God" represents the writer (Dabb) it sort of says it all, doesn't it????? I hesitate to think of what we have in store for us this final season. 😞

[The Companion]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:35 AM, strippedhalo said:

Well, that was... something. But there was no Pellegrino! Let's try to keep it that way next season, please. (There is zero hope of this happening.)

. . .

Not everything in the graveyard now is a zombie, right? The souls flew up out of the ground, and a lot of their bodies would have been burned, so some of them are corporeal ghosts, maybe? Iron might work on those?

Based on recent trends, there will probably be an entire episode where MP plays the entire cast. But it was nice to have a reprieve.

It sure did seem like a lot of those bodies in that graveyard were people who went to hell. What the hell kinda graveyard was that? 😆

 

On 4/26/2019 at 9:04 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I actually thought the can't tell a lie scenario was pretty cool.  I don't think we'd all be at each other's throats so quickly  like in this episode, but just imagine... what a weird apocalypse... world leaders telling the truth!

 

I really enjoyed the can't tell a lie scenes. I didn't understand why people felt compelled to volunteer the truth, but I could hand wave it because it was hilarious 

On 4/26/2019 at 11:02 AM, Casseiopeia said:

I'm assuming there is a dumpster nearby. 

That was all I could think too. Heh.

 

On 4/27/2019 at 7:17 AM, ILoveReading said:

This show doesn't have the budget for a Zombie apocalypse. 

I suspect that the zombies will be dealt with in the first ten minutes.  We'll get glimpses of them fighting while the real focus of the scene is on Billie's conversation with Jack.   Then he'll swoop down, take out all the zombies and then it will be business as usual with the writers being lazy and copy and pasting eps with the Winchesters trying to track down all the things they hunted before.

 

The zombies are in the wind. I put out some feelers. 😆 

On 4/27/2019 at 7:58 PM, sarthaz said:

"See! It was Chuck! Chuck was the hack writer who fucked everything up. It was him (not me)!!!" - A. Dabb

I kept thinking that with Chuck as a writer, Dabb might be sending a message he didn't intend here. 

On 4/27/2019 at 8:08 PM, sarthaz said:

Or ... and stay with me here ... they'll drop the entire plotline after 3 episodes like they do every f'n year now.

Jack comes back, destroys the zombies and traps God by episode 3. The remaining episodes are just him talk to random teenagers in town. 

On 4/28/2019 at 9:42 AM, Dobian said:

I always wanted Bela to come back and get a better ending than she got.  I liked Bela.  So she was a bad girl, they need some love too you know.

I really loved Bela and I would have loved a Rowena-like relationship with her instead of having her ripped apart by hellhounds 

On 4/28/2019 at 2:48 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah, but Sam was clearly pissed and just reacting without thinking it through. You could say that he was acting in the...

...wait for it...

HEEEEAAAT OF THE MOMENT!

I legitimately guffawed at this.

On 4/28/2019 at 6:40 PM, catrox14 said:

I would pay money to see a Dean Winchester/Rick Grimes team up.  HOLY SHIT!

This fanfic HAS to exist, right?

On 4/30/2019 at 7:55 PM, tennisgurl said:

Its just really hard to get the "God is evil" show, and not hear "the show runners are evil" as the subtext. 

Yep.

I found enough of this episode entertaining to put it in the like column. I guess when they set the bar as low as possible, any glimpse of entertainment gets at least some credit from me. I know they will not write something that lives up to its potential, but I actually like the set up. I knew God was the bad guy from spoilers for the next season, so I basically made my peace with that.

 

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, The Companion said:

It sure did seem like a lot of those bodies in that graveyard were people who went to hell. What the hell kinda graveyard was that?

That town segregates it's cemeteries.  Good people in one, bad people in the other. But, I don't think the ghosts had to rise into whatever cemetery they were buried in. I think Chuck just opened a rift there or whatever.

And, since everybody else knows my bitterness on this, I'll just let you in on the fact that I think it was the most idiotic move to make God the big bad for the final season.  What was anybody involved with this show thinking?