S14.E20: Moriah

[gonzosgirrl]

Why did they all just stand there and wait for the zombie horde to swarm them?

Were the Angies (in the photo with Jensen) just convenient extras? There doesn't seem to be any connection there.

And was there any public acknowledgement of the airing of their  last season finale from either Jared or Jensen that I missed?

It's going to be six months before the new season (give or take a week). I can't imagine talking about the possibilities this shitshow of a setup offered for that long. *sigh*

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah. That's probably what Billie wants to talk to Jack about. And Chuck knows that Jack is supposed to be his replacement, which is why he is scared of him. I wish I could care, but it's not a story I am interested in seeing. Not when it is being handled by this group of writers.

I guess if there was any long-game involved in Dabb's intentions, this was probably what Castiel saw as 'paradise' back when Nougat!Fetus stopped him from killing him in utero. Nougat!God and his childlike beneficence (sorry about your luck, Mary) in charge of a universe where there is nougat in every belly and free Netflix on every television. I wouldn't be surprised if Dabb still has visions of a spin-off dancing in his head, The Wayward World of Nougat Sue.

[Bobcatkitten]

So, I enjoyed the humor in the beginning - especially since I knew it was all going to go to hell in a handbasket soon. 

I was confused AF by Chuck. It's like he was a completely different character. Talk about whiplash. Didn't make sense at all.

Loved that Dean recognized Jack's dangerousness and was willing to sacrifice himself. But that when faced with Jack at his feet he just couldn't do it. If Jack had resisted and Dean had to shoot him in the heat of battle, per se, I think he would have. 

Cas was his usual useless self. Goodness what a waste of a character. 

And I'm cautiously optimistic the way the season 15 is set up. If it gets us back to the basics of hunting and ghosts etc I'm going to love it. 

[strippedhalo]

Oh! Also! This has been bugging me since they started in on soulless!Jack - he keeps saying he feels nothing, which is demonstrably untrue, because he keeps getting mad. Rage is an emotion, full stop.

[Lastcall]

There are really only two ways they can go with this. Either there is an immediate reset or the go all in on 20 episodes of the end of the world. There is no middle ground. They cannot believably sell civilization adapting to this attack or organizing any type of resistance. Zombies are hard enough if they are just Romeros but you add ghosts in the mix and the world is gone. They wouldn’t even have time to launch the nukes the AU did. The only hope in the world for anyone would be to make it to the bunker but how feasible would that be in the immediate aftermath of this episode.

And again, this can’t be overstated, this is all Sams fault. He has directly caused ANOTHER apocalypse. Worse, this is the best scenario. If Sam had succeeded the entire Multiverse would have been erased. Sam would have committed the biggest act of genocide in the history of fiction. I really think Dabb feels betrayed by Jared and is taking it out on Sam. First you had the 300th where the world would have been better if Sam never started hunting again. Then you had the AU hunter massacre. Next, Sam gets beaten to death by Nick and has to hide in the car. Finally, he starts another apocalypse after attempting to murder creation. Sam even stopped getting monster kills after 300. 

All of this points to a show killer next year. A giant temper tantrum by writers who didn’t get what they wanted and decided to ruin it for everyone. Gee....I wonder where they got their inspiration for this storyline from?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 If Sam had succeeded the entire Multiverse would have been erased. Sam would have committed the biggest act of genocide in the history of fiction. 

Somewhere Thanos is like: "dude, leave half of them alone." 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Well, that was a hot mess to end an entire season of hot messes. So many limp noodles sticking against a wall, none of it amounting to a full meal.

Ironically, even though it was a whole lotta WTF from start to finish, I found the going through the motions part entertaining enough. Dean was solidly written and Jensen put his all into it, like he always does. Sam was strong too, just a really terrible shot. Then again, I guess it's good he is because everything would have been over in an instant if he'd killed Chuckles. Of course, that may not have been a bad thing. Cas, OTOH, was mostly an asshole. And he continues to be one of the most played individuals in the history of this show. That part of canon remains unchanged. It's just this time he didn't even want to attempt to see it until it was too late.

The whole inability to lie thing was funny, I admit it - and very true. And sorry, not sorry, but the current disastrous state of American politics simply writes itself into that kind narrative. Dabb didn't even have to try.

But, really, the CW who wasn't on board with killing Chuck/God a couple years ago is okay with Dabb turning him into an outright villain? I mean, I know Old Testament God is pretty dickish, but if that's what Dabb was going for, I think he took it way too far.

Obviously Nougat isn't going to stay dead, not with Billie stepping in. I'm guessing Sludge Man is Luci, and it's obvious Dabb and Buck-Lemming will not give up their pets even for the last season. Frustrating, but probably why the Js want some say next year, hopefully to try and keep their characters from being rendered entirely unnecessary.

But Dabb's big ol' F-U to the two main characters in erasing their entire existence, not to mention Kripke's universe that Dabb inherited and continues to run roughshod over, was the epitome of pettiness. Sorry, Andrew, but that kind of childish attitude is why you can't have nice things in the form of a spin-off.

Oh, and surprise surprise, there was no Mikey twist. I'm not sure who still believed there would be, but nope, it was like it never happened. And Dabb having Sam hand-wave away all the complaints about dumping the set-up with Dean and Mike and the books with a lame one-liner that explained absolutely nothing was ridiculously weak, even for Dabb. Frankly at this point he should have said nothing.

Despite the instagram photo Jensen posted with the zombiefied angels that Jack tried to create, they didn't appear to be in this episode as nothing came down from Heaven, just crap from Hell. But is it all from Hell, because monsters don't go to Hell when they die, they go to Purgatory. Is that all being bundled now, like a wireless plan?

Sure, the last scene with the guys surrounded was very cool. But we know how this show rolls, it won't still be cool when the premiere opens.

What was Sam's handwave oneliner to explain away Dean and Michael just not happening like the Books said... I had a lot of tornado warning interruptions. I actually thought that had to still be a twist because that was just too important to just drop. Did they actually have one throwaway line to explain it? Eyeroll.

I thought the black guy was the Empty. Lucifer would have had red glowing eyes.

Everything else you said was very true.

Except of course I am no fan of Kripke. Manners and Jensen Ackles were the ones who made the show iconic imo. Kripke wanted to RIP off The Night Stalker originally. Other people shaped that vision into Supernatural. Kripke wanted the Sam Show. 

[Pondlass1]

I actually thought the can't tell a lie scenario was pretty cool.  I don't think we'd all be at each other's throats so quickly  like in this episode, but just imagine... what a weird apocalypse... world leaders telling the truth!

I don't know... it's just a kick in the teeth that every hard-earned battle they've won means nothing now.  It's like that shower scene in a series eons ago (don't know the series) when the writers realized they'd written themselves into a crappy corner so they just reset everything (it was all a dream).

At least Dean was written in character.  This is what Dean would've done.  He's such a stubborn bastard.  I love him.

The season usually ends with this end of the world stuff, but the first episode of the new season quickly deflates everything we've chewed our nails about over the hiatus. 

Jack will save the day.

[Castiels Cat]

16 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

There are really only two ways they can go with this. Either there is an immediate reset or the go all in on 20 episodes of the end of the world. There is no middle ground. They cannot believably sell civilization adapting to this attack or organizing any type of resistance. Zombies are hard enough if they are just Romeros but you add ghosts in the mix and the world is gone. They wouldn’t even have time to launch the nukes the AU did. The only hope in the world for anyone would be to make it to the bunker but how feasible would that be in the immediate aftermath of this episode.

And again, this can’t be overstated, this is all Sams fault. He has directly caused ANOTHER apocalypse. Worse, this is the best scenario. If Sam had succeeded the entire Multiverse would have been erased. Sam would have committed the biggest act of genocide in the history of fiction. I really think Dabb feels betrayed by Jared and is taking it out on Sam. First you had the 300th where the world would have been better if Sam never started hunting again. Then you had the AU hunter massacre. Next, Sam gets beaten to death by Nick and has to hide in the car. Finally, he starts another apocalypse after attempting to murder creation. Sam even stopped getting monster kills after 300. 

All of this points to a show killer next year. A giant temper tantrum by writers who didn’t get what they wanted and decided to ruin it for everyone. Gee....I wonder where they got their inspiration for this storyline from?

What did Jared do? 

Sam was pretty stupid. Dude... don't shoot God.

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

I actually thought the can't tell a lie scenario was pretty cool.  I don't think we'd all be at each other's throats so quickly  like in this episode, but just imagine... what a weird apocalypse... world leaders telling the truth!

I don't know... it's just a kick in the teeth that every hard-earned battle they've won means nothing now.  It's like that shower scene in a series eons ago (don't know the series) when the writers realized they'd written themselves into a crappy corner so they just reset everything (it was all a dream).

At least Dean was written in character.  This is what Dean would've done.  He's such a stubborn bastard.  I love him.

The season usually ends with this end of the world stuff, but the first episode of the new season quickly deflates everything we've chewed our nails about over the hiatus. 

Jack will save the day.

What... Maybe Dean comes out of his head injury from Ouroboros and it never happened...

And he immediately gets in the box.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess if there was any long-game involved in Dabb's intentions, this was probably what Castiel saw as 'paradise' back when Nougat!Fetus stopped him from killing him in utero. Nougat!God and his childlike beneficence (sorry about your luck, Mary) in charge of a universe where there is nougat in every belly and free Netflix on every television. I wouldn't be surprised if Dabb still has visions of a spin-off dancing in his head, The Wayward World of Nougat Sue.

Yes, I think you might be right about the long-game, gonzosgirrl!

As I've already said, I find this version of Chuck to be a pretty uninteresting prospect for the big bad of the final season. Sure, he is God, and thus the most powerful thing they've ever faced (except for Amara, of course!), but it's not how much power the bad guy has that makes him interesting. It's the bad guy's motivations and layers, and the complications and nuances of his relationship with the good guys, that make the story work.  (Michael would have been much more interesting as their final foe, in my opinion. For a lot of reasons.)

And of course there is also a problem with having Jack as the hero of the story who defeats big bad Chuck. He is so two-dimensional -- it's like the writers are allergic to adding any layers or complexity to the character whatsoever. All that fuss about Jack losing his soul, and that "Oh no! Jack might be dangerous now!" stuff, was completely pointless. It made absolutely no difference at all. Jack killed Mary, the main characters' mother, mind you,  because she was crowding him and he wanted her "gone" -- and it has been brushed aside as an "accident" or a "mistake". (And hey, it's okay -- he didn't kill his grandmother, did he? What a sweetheart!)

Jack then killed the atheist author and probably the minister of that church, not to mention the people in the congregation, but that's all okay, because he was being "manipulated" by Dumah.  Poor misled boy! And Jack tells Castiel he feels nothing at all, and minutes later, we see him kneeling with sorrowful eyes and a sad face in front of Dean, telling him he "understands" why Dean is going to kill him. Um, if he doesn't feel anything, why should he even care why Dean thinks he should die? The fact is, the writers pretend that they are doing things with Jack as a character, but it means absolutely nothing, because in the end he is completely unchanged from the nougat woobie baby he has always been. So considering how I feel about the two big contestants, sorry, not looking forward to a "Jack versus Chuck" match for the final season.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Bergamot

[Lastcall]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

What did Jared do? 

Sam was pretty stupid. Dude... don't shoot God.

I took it to Bitch/Jerk.

[Bergamot]

5 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Edited April 26, 2019 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

like that shower scene in a series eons ago (don't know the series) when the writers realized they'd written themselves into a crappy corner so they just reset everything (it was all a dream). 

That was Dallas, and then difference is that only erased one season of stupidity which I fully applauded unlike apparently, the entirety of Dean and Sam's life

As an aside, I had to laugh at Sam saying why are we the ones that have to fix everything ( which, btw, basically Dean's line in the his djinnverse in s2, so fuck you Dabb for that) when no, they have to fix things because they broke it in the first place.

[Pondlass1]

I don't think the show does a very good job of showing how these big bads and their squabbles with Dean and Sam actually have any effect on the rest of the planet. Well, they can't really can they?  The budget is too small. All peril seems localized.  Amara and her dying sun, Michael and his dreaded revised monsters... all just a blip on the scheme of things and not even mentioned on CNN. The world ending stuff should be left to blockbuster movies with unlimited budgets, not The CW.  

This is why I was hoping the final season would revert back to basics.  Saving people, hunting things.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, heisenberg said:

A couple of seasons ago we saw a mice escaping a room after a character got killed.  Since there is a reset I would like to see that mice coming back to be...  Crowley.

Problem is he would have to recast because barring a miracle and all the Brinks trucks on the planet, Mark Sheppard isn't coming back. And he is what made Crowley tolerable.

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I was confused AF by Chuck. It's like he was a completely different character. Talk about whiplash. Didn't make sense at all.

I've seen speculation that Chuck isn't God, but a false God.  Seen some say that the Empty Shadow is actually God.

If Chuck is God, and God is the villain, it fits with a message of the show.  The show has always presented deities as assholes.  There are few exceptions of higher powers being good, like Castiel, Death, Billie, Jack, and Gabriel.

[Wateroflife]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel cheated and angry.

I feel like everything I've been through with the Winchester's, all their highs and lows, to heaven, hell and purgatory and everything between has all been for nothing.  Its all just gone.  Jack is responsible for taking out the major players and now even all the Winchester minor victories are gone.  There is nothing left. 

Dabb and company reinventing the world lazy will just pick 20 episodes and just retell them.  Why should I care?  What made the MOTW episodes special and poignant was that often times it revealed a lot about the brother.  Like Bloody Mary was a creepy hunt but it was used to further deepen the mystery of what happened to Sam.  A hunt for just blood Mary is going to lose the impact.  Same with WIAWSNB.  It revealed so much about Dean's pysche.  The DJinn hunt was secondary.  Again Who cares. 

Why should I care about the Winchesters being surrounded by Zombies when Jack is just going to swoop in and save everyone with the wave of his hand.   It feels like Death's relationship with Death is now done and over with. 

I'm done with Cas.  He's become as big a self righteous hypocrite as Sam. 

I know that canon means nothing on this show, but a big reason Lucifer feel was because he was jealous of God's love of humanity.  So they bascially retconned all of season 5 because what now God hates humanity and was evil all along.

Nothing about this ep made a lick of sense.

Worse we have to put up with another season of Nougat Sue Snowflake who has to be the most uselless character ever.  He's like mold, unwanted and effecting everything.  (IMO, of course).  He commits the worst sin of all.  He's boring.  Because this ep made it obvious that he will never actually be held accountable to his actions. 

I have to much more to say but it probably belongs in bitch/jerk.

Basically Fuck you Dabb.

I wish I could like this more than once. I totally agree, about Jack, about Cas (who I really dislike now, thanks Dabb), and who wants too see the Winchesters fight their greatest hits again? Talk about a lack of creativity on Dabb's part. It's like he's doubling down on his bad decision to bring back Mary, Bobby and Charlie. This fully convinces me that he doesn't have a single creative idea in his head, but  can only retread what others came up with before. He really is like a bad fan fic writer. Hell, by now, all those baddies are a cakewalk for the boys (uh, they know how to defeat them now, where's the dramatic tension in that?) and as others have said, taken out of their original story context, who cares?

Edit: upon further reflection, all this just makes me believe some super powered ally (probably Jack, groan, but maybe Amara?) will swoop in and fix it all with a snap. This is just a hiatus cliffhanger that won't actually affect season 15. Less stupid, Dabb, but hacky storytelling nonetheless.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Wateroflife

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Apparently neither is pissing off your writers.

Hence the revenge of Dabb.

[Lastcall]

Since this is the week for it. I see 14,000,605 possible outcomes for next season and only one where the fans win.

[S Cook Productions]

8 hours ago, Female83 said:

I hated that they made Chuck the baddie as well as putting politics in the first 15 or so min of the finale. 

I hated these 2 things and liked everything else. Is that even possible? LOL.

[S Cook Productions]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why did they all just stand there and wait for the zombie horde to swarm them?

Were the Angies (in the photo with Jensen) just convenient extras? There doesn't seem to be any connection there.

And was there any public acknowledgement of the airing of their  last season finale from either Jared or Jensen that I missed?

It's going to be six months before the new season (give or take a week). I can't imagine talking about the possibilities this shitshow of a setup offered for that long. *sigh*

Other than the zombified angels, I feel like I also saw set pics of Jack that were not in the ep, and I could have sworn that I read in at least 2 different sources that Cas had a long monologue (which I didn't see), and that he drove the impala (which I def didn't see).

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah. That's probably what Billie wants to talk to Jack about. And Chuck knows that Jack is supposed to be his replacement, which is why he is scared of him. I wish I could care, but it's not a story I am interested in seeing. Not when it is being handled by this group of writers.

I'm sure that words like "brilliant" and "daring" will be flung about in regard to the idea that Chuck is evil. As if no one in the history of the world, none of the great thinkers throughout the centuries, have ever thought of that possibility or considered what that would mean. (Actually, of course, they have.)

One reason I'm less than impressed by the "brilliance" of the idea is that is so clearly a set-up to continue the story of Jack. And I am so, so tired of the show being about Jack.  I never particularly liked the idea of Chuck as God, or the way he was written, but it is just so obvious that the character was given a total personality transplant (this Chuck is nothing like the Chuck we have seen before) because of what they want to do with Jack and his story. And that is the only thing that matters on the show, right?

I am also unimpressed with the version of Chuck they came up with as an antagonist for Jack. Typically for the show now, the new Chuck has no ambiguity to him, no nuance or mystery, no layers. In spite of his god powers, he could not be any more human in his small-minded pettiness. And of course he is Evil with a capital E -- a two-dimensional stereotypical villain twirling his moustache. As it stands now, he looks like maybe the least interesting big bad that the show has ever had, and that's sad considering this is going to be the last season.

All of this for me, too.

I DO think that they could fix this mess w/o Dabb as a showrunner in the writers' room, but if he's still going to be there in that capacity, I think we'll need to strap in for more of Nougatnatural with the brothers just taking on their lead roles in the MOTWs while being relegated to little more than support players again and some more within the myth arc.

Now if they brought Amara back as an ally to the brothers, it might make sense and make things at least tolerable within that sl, but only IF she's maintained her fondness for Dean, that is.

[Casseiopeia]

I'm assuming there is a dumpster nearby. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So, I enjoyed the humor in the beginning - especially since I knew it was all going to go to hell in a handbasket soon. 

I was confused AF by Chuck. It's like he was a completely different character. Talk about whiplash. Didn't make sense at all.

Loved that Dean recognized Jack's dangerousness and was willing to sacrifice himself. But that when faced with Jack at his feet he just couldn't do it. If Jack had resisted and Dean had to shoot him in the heat of battle, per se, I think he would have. 

I liked that you could see Dean's spidey sense kick in at that moment. IMO, something felt "wrong" to him about the entire scenario at that very moment and then Chuck spoke up and twirled his mustache and sealed the wrongness of it all for him. 

[ukgirl71]

Now that I’ve just seen another clip, can I throw in another 😡 at the concept of the multiverse in Supernatural.  It somehow works for me in the Arrowverse, but really, really not here.  And don’t get me started on the notion that Chuck “played”  Team Free Will!

[Wateroflife]

1 minute ago, ukgirl71 said:

Now that I’ve just seen another clip, can I throw in another 😡 at the concept of the multiverse in Supernatural.  It somehow works for me in the Arrowverse, but really, really not here.  And don’t get me started on the notion that Chuck “played”  Team Free Will!

This interests me. I don't watch any of the superhero shows on CW. Is the multiverse something that Arrow et al. introduced long before SPN did it in Season 12? If so, this sounds kinda like a rip off of a fellow network show...

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This interests me. I don't watch any of the superhero shows on CW. Is the multiverse something that Arrow et al. introduced long before SPN did it in Season 12? If so, this sounds kinda like a rip off of a fellow network show...

Well, not really, it`s been in the comics Arrow, Flash and other shows are based on for decades. The multiverse in DC or comics in general predates SPN by what 50, 60 years?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

A few additional thoughts:

1.  Unless they continued filming more scenes of the zombies fighting (and the end result) at the time, there has to be some kind of instant reset, since I can't see them spending all the time and money (and ...um...continuity checks...) to match the final "epic" battle after however many months before they start shooting again.  At least, not to pick up exactly where they left off.  All those extras, makeup, multiple camera angles....

Or maybe the missing scenes (like the angies and Cas driving the Impala) will be used next season?

2.  I'm going to do something very unusual for me and *maybe* defend Sam here.  After all, they've always shown him to be a dead shot (except when he had the Trials sickness), and since they seem to be recreating so many favorite scenes from old eps, maybe he was actually *planning* to shoot Chuck in the shoulder (the way he shot John in the leg to get him to fight off Azazel.)  Of course, Jared didn't play it that way this time--more like, "oops, I missed," so it didn't come across as deliberate.  (Maybe they didn't tell Jared the reason he was supposed to miss?)

3. I think Dabb never really had any ideas of his own and just "borrows" them from other shows (including this one).  Not to insult comic-lovers (my own experience with comics is from way back when they were all 2-D heroes and villains) but it seems to me that that's what Dabb's expertise is--writing 2-D characters with 1-D motivations.  I'm hoping this was his swan song and that's why the big thumb-in-the-nose to everyone.  But I can see him using Jack to Save the World and restore everything, ending with the happy Winchester family eating dinner in their suburban Kansas house.  

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

A few additional thoughts:

1.  Unless they continued filming more scenes of the zombies fighting (and the end result) at the time, there has to be some kind of instant reset, since I can't see them spending all the time and money (and ...um...continuity checks...) to match the final "epic" battle after however many months before they start shooting again.  At least, not to pick up exactly where they left off.  All those extras, makeup, multiple camera angles....

Or maybe the missing scenes (like the angies and Cas driving the Impala) will be used next season?

2.  I'm going to do something very unusual for me and *maybe* defend Sam here.  After all, they've always shown him to be a dead shot (except when he had the Trials sickness), and since they seem to be recreating so many favorite scenes from old eps, maybe he was actually *planning* to shoot Chuck in the shoulder (the way he shot John in the leg to get him to fight off Azazel.)  Of course, Jared didn't play it that way this time--more like, "oops, I missed," so it didn't come across as deliberate.  (Maybe they didn't tell Jared the reason he was supposed to miss?)

3. I think Dabb never really had any ideas of his own and just "borrows" them from other shows (including this one).  Not to insult comic-lovers (my own experience with comics is from way back when they were all 2-D heroes and villains) but it seems to me that that's what Dabb's expertise is--writing 2-D characters with 1-D motivations.  I'm hoping this was his swan song and that's why the big thumb-in-the-nose to everyone.  But I can see him using Jack to Save the World and restore everything, ending with the happy Winchester family eating dinner in their suburban Kansas house.  

Every season finale has been a disaster under Dabb. They always set up something great and our minds create wonderful amazing things for the season premier but they have never lived up to a millionth of their potential. It only took a couple of episodes for people to realize Mary was the bitch queen from hell who ruined every episode she was in. Jack was no more than a prospective spin off who has now replaced Sam and Dean as the lead character. Then there was the Michael cliffhanger....the story that made Jensen quit. Why should this this finale be any different?

I would love to see next season start with Sam, Dean and Cas standing on top of a mountain of zombie corpses. It would be epic and iconic and would make all 3 badasses again but it will never happen. Jack will teleport them to the empty board meeting where death will spout off about balance and the importance of death.....again. Or Bobby will show up in a truck and drive them away from the horde. Or ,like I said before, Chuck appears and resets everything and says they have 19 episodes to give him the ending he wants for the show or he burns it all down. 

As for Sam missing on purpose. I don’t know why he would think that would solve anything and it still doesn’t absolve Sam from starting another apocalypse. How many is that now anyway?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lastcall

[Bergamot]

5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Cas, OTOH, was mostly an asshole.

Yes, I'm afraid I'm done with Castiel. (I can't even call him "Cas" anymore, it sounds too friendly.) I remember when he first appeared on the show, writing long letters to Kripke saying how much I enjoyed the character and I hoped he would stay. Now I wish he had never come back from the Empty. I am so tired of his constant puffed-up "HOW DARE YOU" self-righteousness.

And he is such an incredible hypocrite. Like with his "HOW DARE YOU lie to Jack!" As if he has never lied to or manipulated Dean and Sam. And then there's his "HOW DARE YOU try to lock Jack up!" And why exactly was he trying to go to Hell in this episode to look at and "study" the Cage? Hmmm? Could it possibly be that he was trying to find a way to lock Jack up? But of course it would be okay, if he was the one doing it!

They ruined Castiel when they made him into Jack's faithful dog. Actually none of the relationships among the main characters on the show work the same anymore, because none of them are allowed to put anything before Jack.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Bergamot

[Macbeth]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess Dabb is Chuck in that he didn't get a spinoff, he didn't what he wanted so he just destroyed 14 years of work for the boys.  It's so stupid. 

This is what pisses me off so much.  All of the good work the boys have done has mostly been erased.  Dabb is a petty, vindictive, untalented waste of space  - who's legacy will be his attempt to destroy a beloved show.

This show should have ended this year.  I can forget the last 20 minutes of the finale - next year will be 20 episodes of who knows what.  Dabb has shown he can't follow a plot line past a single episode.  So unless he is completely sidelined - it will be 20 episodes of him shitting on this once great show.

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So, I enjoyed the humor in the beginning - especially since I knew it was all going to go to hell in a handbasket soon. 

I was confused AF by Chuck. It's like he was a completely different character. Talk about whiplash. Didn't make sense at all.

I actually enjoyed the first half of the show as well.  

Regarding Chuck - as someone posted earlier - he is now a 2 dimensional character - where before he was a 3 dimensional character.  Chuck had his dark side and he was manipulative - but I always thought of him as more depressed than anything else.  Getting involved when things went haywire - but was most likely smoking a joint during the rest of the time.

[PAForrest]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

What was Sam's handwave oneliner to explain away Dean and Michael just not happening like the Books said...

Sorry, my bad, I was wrong - it wasn't Sam, it was Cas. When they were all in the bunker with Chuckles and talking about using the gun, Cas said there was another way. Dean said there wasn't because Chuckles said so, and Cas spit back how Billie said the only way to stop Mike was to put Dean in the Malek box.

And that was supposed to make all the disgruntled Dean and/or Jensen fans say, 'ah, okay, cool with ditching Dean's storyline in a literal dumpster fire and pissing all over a solid plot set up for reasons.'

I went back and fixed my post.

[tessathereaper]

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Sorry, my bad, I was wrong - it wasn't Sam, it was Cas. When they were all in the bunker with Chuckles and talking about using the gun, Cas said there was another way. Dean said there wasn't because Chuckles said so, and Cas spit back how Billie said the only way to stop Mike was to put Dean in the Malek box.

And that was supposed to make all the disgruntled Dean and/or Jensen fans say, 'ah, okay, cool with ditching Dean's storyline in a literal dumpster fire and pissing all over a solid plot set up for reasons.'

I went back and fixed my post.

Yeah and if Dean had gone into the box....(Chuck aside)...none of this would have happened so it's not like what got rid of Michael was actually BETTER than Dean going into the box.

[ahrtee]

Well, Chuck said it himself way back in season 4, so you can't say he didn't warn them:

CHUCK: Well, there's only one explanation. Obviously I'm a god.
SAM: You're not a god.
CHUCK: How else do you explain it? I write things and then they come to life. Yeah, no, I'm definitely a god. A cruel, cruel, capricious god. The things I put you through – The physical beatings alone.
DEAN: Yeah, we're still in one piece.
CHUCK: I killed your father. I burned your mother alive. And then you had to go through the whole horrific deal again with Jessica.
SAM: Chuck...
CHUCK: All for what? All for the sake of literary symmetry. I toyed with your lives, your emotions, for... entertainment.
 

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah and if Dean had gone into the box....(Chuck aside)...none of this would have happened so it's not like what got rid of Michael was actually BETTER than Dean going into the box.

And yet Sam still managed to get bitch-faced about Dean being willing to be the one to use Chekov's Chuck's gun. It wasn't 'you'll sacrifice yourself', it was 'it will hurt me''. Sigh.

Edited April 26, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

Can someone tell me the proper pronunciation of the title? Is it more-eee-ah like in The Lord Of the Rings, or mor-eye-ah (like Mariah Carey)? And which syllable gets the emphasis?  I hate saying things wrong in my head, lol.

Edited April 26, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ukgirl71]

I’ve been saying it like Mariah, but with an uh sound rather than the a.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

I don't think it was that simple.  Dean's only mission is, "I need to do this to save everyone" because that's who he is, and Sam was trying to remind him that his actions affect others. Because Sammy is precious to Dean, he wanted to let him know that possibly losing his mom and his brother in like a week, might be more than he can handle. That Dean's actions will have a domino effect and to look at the big picture. Maybe take a second and try to come up with another plan.

Maybe, except he did the same thing over Dean using the box. I'm not saying Sam wouldn't be hurt, but it is always about him. The only time I can recall he actually said Dean should save himself because Dean deserved to live was the S10 finale. Unfortunately, with his history, it still rang false.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

I don't think it was that simple.  Dean's only mission is, "I need to do this to save everyone" because that's who he is, and Sam was trying to remind him that his actions affect others. Because Sammy is precious to Dean, he wanted to let him know that possibly losing his mom and his brother in like a week, might be more than he can handle. That Dean's actions will have a domino effect and to look at the big picture. Maybe take a second and try to come up with another plan.

Dean knows that his actions affect others.  That's what he's trying to do--save the world, and Sam should man up and let him do it, especially after God himself (who they still respected and believed at the time) told them it was the only thing to do.  That *is* the big picture.  After all, when Sam wanted to sacrifice himself in Swan Song *to save the world*, Dean supported him without whimpering, "but what about MEEEEE?"   And as @gonzosgirrl pointed out above, he just used the same argument a few eps ago (and Dean went along with it.)

Besides, they've been hunters all their lives, and should know that one or the other could die at any time.  This way, at least they have the chance to say goodbye and do something awesome at the same time.   

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, SweetTooth said:

Except, as we found out, there WAS another way. And if either of them ever just said, "Yeah, baby! No other option! Go out there and kill yourself!" i would say THAT was some bad writing, not taking into account any of the characters' history.

Even Dean couldn't kill Jack. Even though he knew putting down that gun might mean the apocalypse, HE STILL DID IT. Because in the end he believed there was another way.

Both of them have offered to sacrifice themselves, repeatedly, and every time, whichever one of them was willing to make the sacrifice, the other one tried to say, "THERE'S ANOTHER WAY! DON'T DO THIS!"

Hunters all their lives? Sure. Being willing to lt the other brother throw themselves on the sword without looking back? NOPE! Totally out of character for either of them.

And that's most of what pisses me off about these manufactured sacrificial scenarios (I think I said something about that in another thread a few days ago.)  In the real world, there comes a point when there is no other way and you have to choose the best among what's available. 

But that's OT for this thread, so maybe I'll write it later in a more appropriate one.  

[tessathereaper]

8 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

Except, as we found out, there WAS another way. And if either of them ever just said, "Yeah, baby! No other option! Go out there and kill yourself!" i would say THAT was some bad writing, not taking into account any of the characters' history.

Even Dean couldn't kill Jack. Even though he knew putting down that gun might mean the apocalypse, HE STILL DID IT. Because in the end he believed there was another way.

Both of them have offered to sacrifice themselves, repeatedly, and every time, whichever one of them was willing to make the sacrifice, the other one tried to say, "THERE'S ANOTHER WAY! DON'T DO THIS!"

Hunters all their lives? Sure. Being willing to let the other brother throw themselves on the sword without looking back? NOPE! Totally out of character for either of them.

What other option?  You mean Jack?  You mean the reason they are in this position in the first place(and no you can't use the "but God made me do it" excuse, the point is if they'd let Dean get into the box - Jack wouldn't have lost his soul killing Michael and they wouldn't be in the position they are in NOW.  

So sure there was another way, but it wasn't a better way, it was a worse way.  

It wouldn't be bad writing it be character growth. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Wateroflife]

I suppose it was intentionally bad on the writers part, but what the heck was up with that silly gun that can kill anything, but will inflict the same damage back upon it's wielder? What kind of hokey, last minute, inauthentic drama-manufacturing concept is that? I guess they were trying to highlight what a terrible writer Chuck is?? It reminds me of those Colbert bits where he has the kids brainstorm plots for movies.

I admit I haven't watched the episode yet, perhaps it played better in action than it sounds?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Wateroflife
Cause I see that it was brought up earlier :)

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

I meant that Chuck was totally playing them. That he could just snap his fingers and kill Jack. He wanted Dean to sacrifice himself purely for his own amusement. To use them as puppets. But Dean refused to be a puppet. He realized in the end everyone was right, and that he didn't have to do this. I saw this as a fantastic Dean moment, not just killing himself once again, but taking a step back to try another way.

I actually agree with you on this, though it wasn't "to try another way" but just not to give Chuck the satisfaction of playing his game.  But I thought we were talking more about the original plan, back in the bunker, when Chuck told them it was the only way to fix things and Sam started the "you can't leave me alone" trope.  If Sam had gone along with it (which he had with Amara and the soul bomb, so I *know* he understands) then that would have been honorable, and then Dean realizing that he was being played and stopping himself would have been a wonderful moment of strength.  As it is, it came across more to me as he just couldn't bring himself to kill his "surrogate son" in cold blood as he was kneeling in front of him.  Which is good is many ways (throwing compassion in Chuck's face) but doesn't come across as particularly strong.  

[Wateroflife]

2 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

He probably wanted to see just how ridiculous he could be while manipulating the Winchesters. Fortunately, they realized it in time.

Well at least it sounds appropriate given Chuck's motivation!

This also gave me a hopeful thought. Perhaps Dabb has been pulling a massive meta joke on us all. Maybe since he left with Amara in Season 11, Chuck broke bad/bored and decided to screw around with Sam and Dean, subjecting them to all the awfulness of the last 3 seasons. So it wasn't Dabb being a bad showrunner, it was Dabb being a genius showrunner playing a slow twisted game. And now that Chuck has been revealed, the story writing will get better. Either that or Dabb is an nihilist and will keep it bad because Sam and Dean can never escape being the playthings of a pathological creator.

If only this were actually true....

Edited April 26, 2019 by Wateroflife
Is it wrong that I find the last option Sartre-esque and really intriguing?

[Bergamot]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Can someone tell me the proper pronunciation of the title? Is it more-eee-ah like in The Lord Of the Rings, or mor-eye-ah (like Mariah Carey)? And which syllable gets the emphasis?  I hate saying things wrong in my head, lol.

You can hear it spoken here, at the beginning of this audio of Genesis Chapter 22.

(I looked it up because I was curious about the story of Abraham and Isaac that was referred to in the show, but after listening I decided that the Genesis story has very few points of comparison with what actually happened in the episode, and provided no illumination of it. Dabb obviously just thought it would be cool to include the reference.)

[Bobcatkitten]

One thing I don't understand is some fans saying last night's episode wipes away all the history and all the brave things Sam and Dean did. I don't think it does at all. They still made choices - just like Dean chose not to fire that gun last night. I think there was always free will even after Chuck set up certain circumstances. 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

maybe there was another way. 

Probably part of my problem is that I can't take "we'll find another way" with a straight face any more.  I keep thinking of the outtake in the car, with Jared saying "what is the other way?" and Jensen pointing over his shoulder and saying, "well, if we're going this way, then...that's the other way."  

[Lastcall]

3 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

One thing I don't understand is some fans saying last night's episode wipes away all the history and all the brave things Sam and Dean did. I don't think it does at all. They still made choices - just like Dean chose not to fire that gun last night. I think there was always free will even after Chuck set up certain circumstances. 

Not that as much as it was pretty much Chuck (hell Dabb even) saying FU to Sam and Dean. “Don’t like my ending? Won’t give me the ending I want? Fine! I’m going to undo everything you’ve ever done. All those things you’ve killed, they’re back! All the times you saved the world? Worlds destroyed, you’ve accomplished nothing! All those people you saved? Yeah they are all going to die now!” 

Again, great set up which I know they are incapable of paying off.

[Icarus]

I haven't gone through and read people's thoughts on this episode as I have only just had the chance to watch it. My standard watching currently is to watch the previous episode or as much of it as I can stand (not that much in this instance) before going for the latest episode.

I enjoyed it, so …........... I found it interesting and with the possibility to lead to so much next season. (Whether it does or not is another matter!). My only slight reservations was that Dean was played too much as Dean i.e. too gung ho for the kill and Sam was a bit too much the oh dear we really shouldn't. However damping that down I was fine with Chuck being an ass. I also struggle with the heaven is controlled by dicks – I would like that heaven was fixed i.e. if you went there then that was as previously shown your matrix. Personally as an athiest I am okay with the when I die I die scenario but do feel that in the universe there should be some stability about that.

In general I thought it was a good episode – sorry folks! Actually I should say an acceptable one because of the possibilities it brings.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Icarus