S08.E03: The Long Night

[VCRTracking]

22 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Perhaps, at the very least, they could have suggested before the episode aired that viewers watch in a darkened room with your TV settings adjusted?

Like MST3K!

6 minutes ago, MrsR said:

One of the big youtube reviewers published a mea culpa yesterday after watching again in better settings. His original watch was done in a well-lit room with a laptop shining in his face. 

I was watching on a laptop too. Adjusted the settings 10 seconds in. Increasing the contrast along along with the brightness helped. At least the major deaths were lit well enough.

27 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I remembered how silly and shallow Sansa could be back then, but I had forgotten how bratty and obnoxious she could be.

She has grown a lot.  But, she still uses a scaled back version of  that bratty, superior tone with Jon, Dany and others.  Even when she is right, it is off putting.  

If she hadn't gotten cast as Sansa, Sophie Turner would definitely played a lot of "mean girl" roles. There's an alternate reality where Maisie stars as the underdog heroine of a British teen movie and Sophie is the "Queen Bee" bitch who bullies her and then gets a humiliating comeuppance at the end.

Edited May 1, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Cattie]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I taped The Long Night for a friend who doesn't have HBO, and was checking the tape this morning and realized that the Hound is with Melisandre when she comes out of the keep before stumbling off to her death.  So I'm moving him from my "MIA" list to my "Alive" list.  Don't know how I missed that Sunday night.

When the Night King raised the dead, I kept expecting the show to go back to the room the Hound and Melisandre were in and have them face an undead (again) Beric. I guess there were too many things going out at once to focus on them. Or maybe they thought it would be way too unrealistic for them to survive if they showed it, because that room was full of bodies when Arya left.

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm so glad they opted for realism in a battle with flying, fire breathing dinosaurs; a direwolf; ice zombies; a woman who lit thousands of swords on fire by uttering a few words; the dead rising from the crypts to attack the living; a psychic kid in a wheel chair who sends BREAKING NEWS updates via raven during the course of the battle; and an antagonist who was turned into a magical being after being stabbed with obsidian, who can't be killed by fire, but who turns into a pile of ice cubes when stabbed with an imaginary substance called Valyrian steel.
Realism was the right choice.
Perhaps, at the very least, they could have suggested before the episode aired that viewers watch in a darkened room with the TV settings adjusted?

Yeah, a simple notice to watch in a darkened room, brightness and contrast turned up, would have been well advised.  I did so after 5 minutes, and it made all the difference.

[Absurda]

Quote

Because Jon & Tyrion insisted on holding hands with Cersei around the campfire while singing Kumbaya and smoking a peace pipe

yeah, I didn't say that.  Just pointing out that Jon went on a suicide mission and Dany made sure he came back.  She suffered a significant loss as a result. 

Before this battle, the only ones to suffer losses against the AOTD were Nightswatch, Wildlings and Dany.  Dany wasn't single handedly saving the entire north, but she had already suffered losses that the North hadn't yet and even, knowing what they were up against, put her armies on the front lines to guard the Northerners.  She deserves some props for putting her 1 overriding goal (the IT) aside to fight a bigger war.  It's certainly more than Cercei did.

[Constantinople]

8 minutes ago, Absurda said:

yeah, I didn't say that.  Just pointing out that Jon went on a suicide mission and Dany made sure he came back.  She suffered a significant loss as a result. 

Before this battle, the only ones to suffer losses against the AOTD were Nightswatch, Wildlings and Dany.  Dany wasn't single handedly saving the entire north, but she had already suffered losses that the North hadn't yet and even, knowing what they were up against, put her armies on the front lines to guard the Northerners.  She deserves some props for putting her 1 overriding goal (the IT) aside to fight a bigger war.  It's certainly more than Cercei did.

Sorry if I wasn't clear

I was trying to say that I tend to blame Jon & Tyrion for the loss of the dragon to the Night King, not Dany.

[seawind]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:24 PM, RedHawk said:

Sam did his share of fighting and then I think he was exhausted, terrified, and certain there was no hope. Yes, maybe he was cowardly to give up and keep needing to be saved, but the Hound gave up for a while there as well. I ascribe to the theory that Sam will be revealed as the author of the "Songs of Ice and Fire". I like him and was happy he survived. He has been brave -- he was the first man to kill a White Walker and he also killed one (1) Thenn!

I don't detest Sam like many others seem to. He's been a great friend to Jon since the beginning, and he's done a lot for him and for Westeros. Lord Commander Mormont said it himself in S1 when he realized there was no smell on the dead bodies when Benjen was lost: "You may be a coward, Tarly, but you're not stupid." I do understand how people are viewing Sam in a bad light by his reactions during the battle, but isn't it interesting how we sometimes view things differently than what was intended?

In the "Game Revealed" episode, the director talks about how "great" the scene was where Jon bypasses Sam getting overwhelmed by wights, and he says "because it was this idea of Sam being one person Jon has always gone back for, has always relied on, has always been his true friend,  and he had to sacrifice him to go after the Night King, and then it was finalized with a moment where at some point, we just ran out of stunt guys to throw at Sam, and so he sat there, and he just started crying and it was great, because it truly was crying amidst all this violence." And John Bradley himself said, "If you're involved in a battle scene, you like to see yourself as a fighter, and you like to make it look as good as you possibly can, and Miguel was the one who has to keep reigning me in and say, 'Remember, you're playing Samwell Tarly, and Samwell Tarly is not a fighter.' The reason that Sam is in there is because he's not a fighter, and it's because he can show how normal people would cope." And a stunt coordinator said "So we had to really dial [John] down and we just make it in such a way that we wouldn't allow him to be cool. We just put him under so much pressure,  which is not fair to him as a person, because we could pr-... We could do it to everybody else too, but we just don't. We made Kit look really cool. We do."

So, there's that! The show made deliberate decisions for Sam and thought they were great, but it didn't come off that way on screen for the majority, it seems. IMHO — and I say this thinking John Bradley has done a great, great job — Sam is not the right choice to show how "normal" people would cope. "Normal" people haven't ever seen wights or White Walkers or the NK. "Normal" people are those who just about pissed themselves when the dragons flew over Winterfell. Before S8 began, I kept thinking about how insane it would be for the "regular" people to see the zombies for the first time, and how I would not blame a one of them if they all dropped their weapons and ran screaming in the other direction. I kept thinking of how they broke through the gate in Hardhome and how Night of the Living Dead that was. But due to the immense scale of the battle and the darkness, there was no easy or good way to show any of the "normal" people's reactions to seeing these things for the first time. It would have served much better to show a regular, no-name soldier crying instead. But that's just my opinion. 🙂

One last thing on Sam...that quick shot of him with Gilly and Little Sam? Totally made me think of that brief shot of the elderly couple in Titanic who were together on their bed as the sea was rushing in around them. 

[Drogo]

26 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Because Jon & Tyrion insisted on holding hands with Cersei around the campfire while singing Kumbaya and smoking a peace pipe

Dany and her dragons weren't in the North to get a wight for Cersei; they were there to save Jon/Jorah/Tormund/The Hound/Beric/Thoros (who went out to get a wight for Cersei.)  She didn't have to do anything for them, whatsoever.  But she went in an effort to save Jon and his cause (The Living) and lost her child in the process. 

Somehow Sansa went from "I should have thanked you as soon as you arrived!" to "Ugh this bitch & her dragons" in one week.  IMO she doesn't have enough time left to get back on many of our good sides. 

[seawind]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:44 PM, Bali said:

And elephants. Don't forget she doesn't have her precious elephants. ha haha hahahahaha

[MrsR]

20 minutes ago, seawind said:

One last thing on Sam...that quick shot of him with Gilly and Little Sam? Totally made me think of that brief shot of the elderly couple in Titanic who were together on their bed as the sea was rushing in around them. 

We saw that as well. I took that as a salute to their home base in Belfast, in the Titanic Studios, where the ship was built.

Side note: The youtube reviewer was watching on a tv in a well-lit room while taking notes on a laptop shining in his face. Of course, he couldn't see anything.

Edited May 1, 2019 by MrsR

[seawind]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:55 PM, proserpina65 said:

I don't think any of their bodies made it back to Winterfell.

I believe Lyanna's did. Ned's definitely did (with the exception of his head). But I thought that only people who had been killed by wights could be risen by the NK — am I wrong on that?

That was a real missed opportunity for a good gut punch, BTW — having at least one previously fallen character show up in battle as a wight. I do wish they'd done it.

[MadameKillerB]

5 minutes ago, seawind said:

I believe Lyanna's did.

If Lyanna's did, wouldn't they be able to tell she died in childbirth? I've always wondered about that...

[Oscirus]

How's Sansa getting all the hate when Sam literally got people killed with his incompetence?  Jon  told him to go into the crypts and he insisted, knowing that he sucks at fighting.

24 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

If Lyanna's did, wouldn't they be able to tell she died in childbirth? I've always wondered about that...

By that point, Ned was head of the house, and Im fairly certain he wouldn't be ordering any autopsies or whatever it was they did back then.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Oscirus

[Absurda]

Sam looks like a younger version of one of my favorite coworkers so I find it hard to dislike him.  He was a liability for a lot of the more seasoned fighters that liked him (Edd) but he did survive so he must have killed some wights. 

I also believe Sansa killed some on her way to protecting the rest of the vault crew and would have gone down fighting if Arya hadn't killed the NK when she did.

[proserpina65]

26 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Somehow Sansa went from "I should have thanked you as soon as you arrived!" to "Ugh this bitch & her dragons" in one week.

She wasn't "Ugh, this bitch and her dragons" at all.  She was correctly pointing out that Tyrion had divided loyalties which would create difficulties in any relationship between him and her.  Yes, she could've phrased it a little better, but then again, Missandei interpreted Sansa's comment through the perspective of having heard Dany been derisively described as "the Dragon Queen", something Sansa would know absolutely nothing about.  And Missandei was also overhearing part of a conversation which had nothing to do with her.

[proserpina65]

20 minutes ago, seawind said:

I believe Lyanna's did. Ned's definitely did (with the exception of his head). But I thought that only people who had been killed by wights could be risen by the NK — am I wrong on that?

I know Ned's bones got as far as Renly's camp - did they get any farther after Renly died?  And I'm not sure Lyanna's got back to Winterfell.  I know they had statues in the crypt, but does that necessarily mean their bodies were there?  Now, we could seen reanimated Rickon - that would've been a gut punch for Sansa.

Ygritte told Jon to burn the Half-hand's body so that it wouldn't rise.  He definitely was killed by Jon.

[Macbeth]

Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

Here is a link.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/film-and-tv/game-of-thrones-fan-proves-jon-snow-wasnt-just-screaming-at-a-dragon/

I was wrong about the tree. 

And I apologize for underestimating you once again Jon.  You are not good with words - but you are one bad-ass warrior.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Macbeth

[Constantinople]

Lyanna's body was buried in the crypts.

From the pilot

Quote

ROBERT: Did you have to bury her in a place like this? She should be on a hill somewhere with the sun and the clouds above her.
NED: She was my sister. This is where she belongs.

[tv-talk]

21 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

And how many of the living would have been burnt to death if he’d flamed the dead swarming the walls?

Not many, the dead were outside and the living inside. And Jon didnt kill the NK or even come close, he certainly could have made a few passes and possibly been the balance on Winterfell not being breached. 

[meep.meep]

I heard on the radio yesterday that apparently Chris Stapleton, his manager, and the bass player in his band got to be extras!  They were wildings who got turned.  Time for a rewatch!

One of the criticisms that I've read is how the Night King was built up as this big villain, but we never understood his "motivation."  Well, I figured his motivation is the same as everyone else's in this story:  to get the Iron Throne.  In addition, some of the best villains in film and TV are just the relentless force that you can't outwit or escape.  Think about the truck in Duel.

[taanja]

1 hour ago, seawind said:

So, there's that! The show made deliberate decisions for Sam and thought they were great, but it didn't come off that way on screen for the majority, it seems. IMHO — and I say this thinking John Bradley has done a great, great job — Sam is not the right choice to show how "normal" people would cope. "Normal" people haven't ever seen wights or White Walkers or the NK. "Normal" people are those who just about pissed themselves when the dragons flew over Winterfell. Before S8 began, I kept thinking about how insane it would be for the "regular" people to see the zombies for the first time, and how I would not blame a one of them if they all dropped their weapons and ran screaming in the other direction. I kept thinking of how they broke through the gate in Hardhome and how Night of the Living Dead that was. But due to the immense scale of the battle and the darkness, there was no easy or good way to show any of the "normal" people's reactions to seeing these things for the first time. It would have served much better to show a regular, no-name soldier crying instead. But that's just my opinion. 🙂

“That's what you young chaps have to remember. When you run, RUN! Full speed. Don't dither or dally even for an instant. let terror have his way, for he's the best friend you've got” 
― George MacDonald Fraser

[Oscirus]

Way to do the job you volunteered for in the crypt, you had one job to do. SMH

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

She wasn't "Ugh, this bitch and her dragons" at all.  She was correctly pointing out that Tyrion had divided loyalties which would create difficulties in any relationship between him and her.  Yes, she could've phrased it a little better, but then again, Missandei interpreted Sansa's comment through the perspective of having heard Dany been derisively described as "the Dragon Queen", something Sansa would know absolutely nothing about.  And Missandei was also overhearing part of a conversation which had nothing to do with her.

Calling her "The Dragon Queen" was meant as at least slightly derogatory. 

Also, why would Daenerys be concerned about divided loyalties, unless Sansa was disloyal?

Having her Hand marry the Lady of probably the greatest and most respected house in the Seven Kingdoms would be a wonderful alliance for Daenerys.   It would put one of her most trusted advisers in a position of great power in the North and help bond the North to her realm.   

I hadn't thought of it before, but Sansa's comment suggests she is planning or at least considering a rebellion against the Queen.  

[proserpina65]

21 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Lyanna's body was buried in the crypts.

From the pilot

Thanks for that.  It's been a long while since I watched that episode.

[proserpina65]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Calling her "The Dragon Queen" was meant as at least slightly derogatory. 

Also, why would Daenerys be concerned about divided loyalties, unless Sansa was disloyal?

Having her Hand marry the Lady of probably the greatest and most respected house in the Seven Kingdoms would be a wonderful alliance for Daenerys.   It would put one of her most trusted advisers in a position of great power in the North and help bond the North to her realm.   

I hadn't thought of it before, but Sansa's comment suggests she is planning or at least considering a rebellion against the Queen.  

We know that Sansa believes the North should no longer be subjugated to the Iron Throne.  I doubt she's considering a rebellion, but it's definitely a subject on which she and Dany do not agree.  Which would absolutely divide Tyrion's loyalty.  But really, we won't know until next week, so I'm moving on regarding this subject.

[screamin]

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Calling her "The Dragon Queen" was meant as at least slightly derogatory. 

Is it, though? I mean, is it an objectively disrespectful term that everyone there would recognize as such? The Lannisters call themselves lions and take it as a compliment when identified so by others, the Starks call themselves wolves without a problem; is it a given that identifying a Targaryen as a dragon queen is supposed to be intrinsically insulting?

Edited May 1, 2019 by screamin

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, seawind said:

 But I thought that only people who had been killed by wights could be risen by the NK — am I wrong on that?

The bodies that rose up in the crypt died long before the wights arrived at Winterfell

[Drogo]

58 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Yes, she could've phrased it a little better, but then again, Missandei interpreted Sansa's comment through the perspective of having heard Dany been derisively described as "the Dragon Queen", something Sansa would know absolutely nothing about. 

Eh... I'm not willing to believe that the Sansa Stark who MyLord'd and YourGrace'd the shit out of Kings Landing for all those years wouldn't realize that only "Queen Daenerys"/"The Queen" are respectful and appropriate options for speaking of their new Queen. (*Tyrion even corrected his own brother when he called Daenerys "Your Queen" with "She's your queen, too.")

I can't give the benefit of the doubt to the kind of person who will tell her relatives they should be "on their knees thanking her" for sending a Help-Me raven to an ephebophile and not telling anyone about it so they could built it into their strategy.. and the type of person who feels it necessary to quantify her suffering as more than anyone else's...

[GodsBeloved]

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Calling her "The Dragon Queen" was meant as at least slightly derogatory. 

Agreed.

Quote

Also, why would Daenerys be concerned about divided loyalties, unless Sansa was disloyal?

Having her Hand marry the Lady of probably the greatest and most respected house in the Seven Kingdoms would be a wonderful alliance for Daenerys.   It would put one of her most trusted advisers in a position of great power in the North and help bond the North to her realm.   

Given that Sansa's priority is independence for the North and not a wonderful alliance for Daenerys, I took her comment to mean, in part at least, that Tyrion would do nothing to aide Sansa in that regard. 

Sansa doesn't have to be "disloyal" and rebell. It can be as simple as Daenerys agreeing to give Sansa what she plainly said she wanted. Tyrion could aide in changing Daenerys' position but Sansa doesn't think he would.

Quote

I hadn't thought of it before, but Sansa's comment suggests she is planning or at least considering a rebellion against the Queen

Not unlike Daenerys.

Edited May 1, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[seawind]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:16 PM, catrice2 said:

If fighting side by side like they did is not enough foreplay for Jaimie and Brianne and that does not happen next week...then it won't, just like I never got my Jorah/Dany love....Yep...still bitter

Sadly, I'm pretty sure the knighting scene is the best sex that Jaime and Brienne will ever have. (God, what a wonderful scene that was.) I'm fairly certain at least one of them won't survive the series. But then again, I was 200% sure we'd lose at least one major character in this ep — at the absolute minimum, at least one of Tyrion's little fireplace group — and yeah, that didn't happen. (For a while there, each time Jamie and Brienne were about to be overwhelmed by wights and Jaime would pause, I thought he was going to grab Brienne and kiss her hard, and then they'd be both be slaughtered. 🙂 )

Glad I'm not the only one who ships (shipped) Jorah and Dany. I tried hard, I really did, but I still don't see any romantic chemistry at all, ever, between Dany & Jon/Emilia & Kit. Sure, no one can compare to the love they had for Drogo & Ygritte, but ever since Jorah returned to Dany, her face lights up like a Christmas tree every time she sees him. Dany/Emilia never looks at Jon that way. (I suppose Emilia's and Iain's chemistry naturally built over the years working together. Plus, they just look so freaking GOOD together!) On book, Dany didn't have romantic feelings for Jorah, but if you didn't know that, her grief when he died could make you believe otherwise (many kudos to Emilia Clarke for that scene).

[izabella]

33 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Also, why would Daenerys be concerned about divided loyalties, unless Sansa was disloyal?

I think the problem is that Tyrion could potentially have a conflict of interest trying to follow his oath to the Queen and vows to protect his wife.  Ned had major conflicts of interest when he became the Hand of the King and the King's family appeared to have tried to kill Bran.  Or as Jaime said - so many oaths.  What are you going to do when those oaths conflict?

Would Sansa be disloyal if Dany, at some point in the future, loosed her dragons to eat "whatever they want" in the North and depleted all their livestock so the Northerners were starving?  What would Tyrion do?   Would he say "dragons gotta eat"?  Who knows?  Sansa is saying she doesn't want to be in a position where she doesn't know where her husband's loyalties and support would fall in a situation like that.  She's not saying she is planning a rebellion, but I do think she would want to be able to count on her husband to lead the rebellion if the Queen fucks with them. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by izabella

[Constantinople]

I think the phrase "Dragon Queen" is meant as a bit of a jibe, and a suggestion of foreignness, but (what did Benjen's brother tell Benjen about the word but):

Quote

Barristan Selmy: When your brother Rhaegar led his army into battle at the Trident, men died for him because they believed in him, because they loved him, not because they'd been bought at a slaver's auction. I fought beside the last dragon on that day, Your Grace. I bled beside him.

Jorah: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died.

Daenerys: Did you know him well, Ser Barristan?

Barristan: I did, Your Grace. Finest man I ever met.

Daenerys: I wish I had known him. But he was not the last dragon.

Daenerys or her followers have little cause to complain about anyone calling her "Dragon Queen" when Daenerys alludes to herself as a dragon.

Moreover, a wise man once said

Quote

Let me give you some advice, bastard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor. Then it can never be used to hurt you.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Constantinople

[Constantinople]

43 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Having her Hand marry the Lady of probably the greatest and most respected house in the Seven Kingdoms would be a wonderful alliance for Daenerys.   It would put one of her most trusted advisers in a position of great power in the North and help bond the North to her realm. 

But the Hand traditionally hangs out in King's Landing, and the Lord/Lady of Winterfell traditionally hangs out in Winterfell

[seawind]

On 4/29/2019 at 10:23 PM, steelyis said:

Me! Davos came off small and petty. I expected better of him.

It's disheartening, because even after everything that just happened a lot of these people are going to fall back into old habits and rehash pointless vendettas instead of focusing on building something new and better.

Burning a child alive is beyond monstrous, regardless of whether your Lord told you to do it or not, regardless of whether it helped or not). Sure, it's great that Melisandre showed up at the 11th hour and helped save lives. But that doesn't redeem her in my book, and I don't think it did in Davos's, either. 

[VCRTracking]

22 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Eh... I'm not willing to believe that the Sansa Stark who MyLord'd and YourGrace'd the shit out of Kings Landing for all those years wouldn't realize that only "Queen Daenerys"/"The Queen" are respectful and appropriate options for speaking of their new Queen. (*Tyrion even corrected his own brother when he called Daenerys "Your Queen" with "She's your queen, too.")

I can't give the benefit of the doubt to the kind of person who will tell her relatives they should be "on their knees thanking her" for sending a Help-Me raven to an ephebophile and not telling anyone about it so they could built it into their strategy.. and the type of person who feels it necessary to quantify her suffering as more than anyone else's...

I think about the change in attitude in Arya after they turn the tables on Littlefinger. They showed  Bran saying Sansa he saw her getting raped by Ramsay for a reason and I think what we didn't see was Bran telling what happened to Arya.  Sansa would not have told anyone else that even to win a "Who suffered more" contest with Arya and hearing it directly from Bran in that now emotionless, matter of fact way of his, she would have only believed it she would have seen on Sansa's face how it still effects her.  I expect Bran witnessed a lot of the bad shit that happened to his family, Ned's death, the Red Wedding. That probably traumatized him and "killed" the old Bran into being the Three Eyed Raven.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think the problem is that Tyrion could potentially have a conflict of interest trying to follow his oath to the Queen and vows to protect his wife.  Ned had major conflicts of interest when he became the Hand of the King and the King's family appeared to have tried to kill Bran.  Or as Jaime said - so many oaths.  What are you going to do when those oaths conflict?

Would Sansa be disloyal if Dany, at some point in the future, loosed her dragons to eat "whatever they want" in the North and depleted all their livestock so the Northerners were starving?  What would Tyrion do?   Would he say "dragons gotta eat"?  Who knows?  Sansa is saying she doesn't want to be in a position where she doesn't know where her husband's loyalties and support would fall in a situation like that.  She's not saying she is planning a rebellion, but I do think she would want to be able to count on her husband to lead the rebellion if the Queen fucks with them. 

I don't really buy that.  By that theory, the Hand of the King/Queen could never have a family, as it could create conflicts.

If Sansa is a loyal subject to Queen Daenerys there should be no conflict of interest.  Besides that, it seem like it might be time for Tyrion to retire as Hand, though it would not be necessary to prevent conflict, as long as Sansa is loyal.   

There is no reason to believe Daenerys plans to oppress the North and even if she did try, Tyrion couldn't stop her, and most of the North, not just Sansa would likely rebel.  

I think what Sansa was really saying is it would never work because Tyrion serves a Queen who claims the North as part of her territory and Sansa is a Northern Nationalist, who does not really recognize Daenerys as her Queen.  Thus, she refers to her as "The Dragon Queen", not "the Queen", "Queen Daenerys" or "Our Queen:."

I don't think she is necessarily planning a rebellion, but her heart is in rebellion and I think she is open to the option.   

I could see not only Tyrion but  Jon and possibly Arya having to choose between Daenerys and Sansa if Sansa doesn't change her attitude.  

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

Here is a link.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/film-and-tv/game-of-thrones-fan-proves-jon-snow-wasnt-just-screaming-at-a-dragon/

I was wrong about the tree. 

And I apologize for underestimating you once again Jon.  You are not good with words - but you are one bad-ass warrior.

Thanks for posting that. Jon does deserve credit, but the show runners also deserve some demerits.

Viewers shouldn't have to analyze a scene like the Zapruder film to figure out what was going on.  I can hear Jon yelling "Go" but even now I have no idea who he's yelling it at since I can only see the Viserion and Jon. Moreover, I had no idea they were anywhere near the Godswood.

Which is one reason why I think Breaking Bad was a great show. You must convey information to tell a story, and the Breaking Bad writers always did a great job of conveying information.

Here, not so much

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

But the Hand traditionally hangs out in King's Landing, and the Lord/Lady of Winterfell traditionally hangs out in Winterfell

True, Tyrion would probably resign as Hand and become Warden of the North, which might be a win-win for Dany, since she could use a clever, loyal Lord in the North and he hasn't been giving her the best advice as Hand lately.  

Edited May 1, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

21 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Thanks for posting that. Jon does deserve credit, but the show runners also deserve some demerits.

Viewers shouldn't have to analyze a scene like the Zapruder film to figure out what was going on.  I can hear Jon yelling "Go" but even now I have no idea who he's yelling it at since I can only see the Viserion and Jon. Moreover, I had no idea they were anywhere near the Godswood.

Which is one reason why I think Breaking Bad was a great show. You must convey information to tell a story, and the Breaking Bad writers always did a great job of conveying information.

Here, not so much

Even in Breaking Bad the showrunners sometimes left things vague or made you have to look closely to figure out what happened.

For example: 

Spoiler

At the end of Season 4, you had to notice the Lily of the Valley in Walt's yard and make the connection to realize theat he really did poison Brock.

Also, in Season 5, a lot of viewers didn't get that Jesse realized Walt poisoned Brock, when he realized that Huell pick pocketed his weed, which made him put it together that Walt and Saul had Huell steal the ricin cigarette from Jesse, way back in Season 4.

Sometimes it is cool to realize details I missed when rewatching, or when someone points it out on the internet.  

Edited May 2, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Absurda]

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Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

Here is a link.

Thanks for posting that. Jon does deserve credit, but the show runners also deserve some demerits.

Viewers shouldn't have to analyze a scene like the Zapruder film to figure out what was going on.  I can hear Jon yelling "Go" but even now I have no idea who he's yelling it at since I can only see the Viserion and Jon. Moreover, I had no idea they were anywhere near the Godswood.

Which is one reason why I think Breaking Bad was a great show. You must convey information to tell a story, and the Breaking Bad writers always did a great job of conveying information.

Here, not so much

Totally agreed!  Their artsy cinematography got in the way of the story they were trying to tell.  I could see my screen pretty well at that point (the room was dark, the sun had gone down) but totally didn't see Arya.  Even on the video on the link it's mostly just dark and black, I can barely make out the NK.  I'll have to watch the episode again with some adjustments to my settings and see if that makes it better.  But, the fact that just about everyone (or at least everyone on this forum) missed this detail is a major failure of the filming. 

Quote

Even in Breaking Bad the showrunners sometimes left things vague or made you have to look closely to figure out what happened.

It's one thing to have the details there in plain sight, but leave out the explanation leaving the audience to draw their own conclusions or figure it out.  It's another thing to obscure the details so the majority of the audience can't even see them.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

I dunno - how could Jon know Arya was there, did he see her? It was odd to see him scream at the dragon and I'm glad we got a halfway decent explanation but I'm not entirely sold on that take.

I still prefer my fanwank that Arya came in hot Wudang style from one of the rooftops and the WW failed to identify the bogey ruffling their hair as dangerous.

[MadameKillerB]

Has this been confirmed: Jon screaming Go, Go which implies he and Arya and Bran had a plan.

I don't see how that matches with the interaction b/t Melisandre and Arya. It was as if Arya just realized what she had to do. It didn't seem like she'd planned it beforehand with Jon. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Absurda said:

Totally agreed!  Their artsy cinematography got in the way of the story they were trying to tell.  I could see my screen pretty well at that point (the room was dark, the sun had gone down) but totally didn't see Arya.  Even on the video on the link it's mostly just dark and black, I can barely make out the NK.  I'll have to watch the episode again with some adjustments to my settings and see if that makes it better.  But, the fact that just about everyone (or at least everyone on this forum) missed this detail is a major failure of the filming. 

It's one thing to have the details there in plain sight, but leave out the explanation leaving the audience to draw their own conclusions or figure it out.  It's another thing to obscure the details so the majority of the audience can't even see them.

The battle scenes were MUCH clearer when I pumped up the brightness and backlighting settings on my low end 720p TV.   

I think there were a lot of times on BB and BCS where they at least left the character's motivations open to interpretation   

With the Jon and Viserion scene, if they made it clear that he was signalling to Arya to go kill the Night King it would have spoiled the most surprising part of the episode and one of most surprising scenes in the history of the show.  

There were also times on BB and perhaps more on BCS where you didn't realize what someone was up to until after their plan went into effect, like Walt tinkering with a garage door opener in the desert or Mike buying balloons, borrowing his granddaughter's pig toy, buying carbon paper, or drilling holes in a hose, etc.     

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Has this been confirmed: Jon screaming Go, Go which implies he and Arya and Bran had a plan.

I don't see how that matches with the interaction b/t Melisandre and Arya. It was as if Arya just realized what she had to do. It didn't seem like she'd planned it beforehand with Jon. 

Could it be that Jon saw Arya, and realized she was the best hope to kill the NK, with him pinned down by Viserion? She might have been the best hope anyway, as she seems to be even more skilled than Jon. 

[MadameKillerB]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Could it be that Jon saw Arya, and realized she was the best hope to kill the NK, with him pinned down by Viserion? She might have been the best hope anyway, as she seems to be even more skilled than Jon. 

That's one option. But why would he spoil her stealth attack by screaming Go, Go?

I dunno. I can't get my head around it. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, MadameKillerB said:

That's one option. But why would he spoil her stealth attack by screaming Go, Go?

I dunno. I can't get my head around it. 

I don't think the NK would hear him yelling Go, Go and probably wouldn't know who was yelling about what.   

Of course it is possible this is just a fan theory.  

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

Here is a link.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/film-and-tv/game-of-thrones-fan-proves-jon-snow-wasnt-just-screaming-at-a-dragon/

I was wrong about the tree. 

And I apologize for underestimating you once again Jon.  You are not good with words - but you are one bad-ass warrior.

I watched the clip embedded in that article a couple of times.  When was he supposed to have seen her?  There's no flash of recognition.  He's behind the rock looking pained, then stands and turns to the ice dragon.  I hope he was helping Arya, but I saw it more as Jon having had enough and just standing up to end it one way or another.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think it's an "absurd" scenario that the people in the crypt would have to rebuild the Northern civilization. They're almost in that situation now.

If the dead won (the worst case scenario that was mentioned) nobody's rebuilding anything. The people in the crypt are dead too. This is a battle where they either win or it's over. The only difference between the people in the crypt and on the battlefield is that those upstairs are taking a chance on dying in battle. The people in the crypt are waiting for somebody else to decide their fate. Sansa telling them to think about re-populating would be nonsensical. 

2 hours ago, seawind said:

In the "Game Revealed" episode, the director talks about how "great" the scene was where Jon bypasses Sam getting overwhelmed by wights, and he says "because it was this idea of Sam being one person Jon has always gone back for, has always relied on, has always been his true friend,  and he had to sacrifice him to go after the Night King, and then it was finalized with a moment where at some point, we just ran out of stunt guys to throw at Sam, and so he sat there, and he just started crying and it was great, because it truly was crying amidst all this violence."

That's how I took the scene. If Sam's alive it's because he's been slaughtering wights. He's just reached a point of exhaustion and despair.

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Jon wasn't actually just yelling at Viserion the Ice Dragon.  He was yelling at Arya to Go...

Viserion was blocking the Godswood - which we know.  But I thought it was only to keep Jon out.  But Arya, apparently, was stuck there as well.   Jon distracted the dragon and yelled at Arya to go, potentially sacrificing himself as Jon is wont to do. And the next shot is the White Walker's hair flying - as Arya runs past.  

Here is a link.

https://www.unilad.co.uk/film-and-tv/game-of-thrones-fan-proves-jon-snow-wasnt-just-screaming-at-a-dragon/

I was wrong about the tree. 

And I apologize for underestimating you once again Jon.  You are not good with words - but you are one bad-ass warrior.

Okay, I just watched it again and not seeing that at all.

Jon tries to sneak past the dragon--iow, it was *good* when the dragon was distracted from him as far as he was concerned. But the dragon turns around and keeps him there. Jon's then on the other side of the wall looking frustrated. The dragon isn't leaving, so he's stuck. So he stands up and yells. There's no moment of Jon seeing anything. He doesn't stand up as if he's trying to do something else and then notice something and do something in response, who as we know, had no earlier plans to try to kill the NK herself. He stands up and plants his feet to yell and the dragon is already facing him and he yells something--I think it's either "NO!" or just a wordless frustration into its face.

It makes far more sense and require far less reaching to just see him doing what he appears to be doing, screaming in fury and frustration because *he* is being kept from protecting Bran and now everything is lost. As the showrunners said, this whole thing is a "we're fucked" montage. Jon in that moment is defeated. He doesn't have a last wild hope for Arya, who, btw, he doesn't know has the kind of skills she does. This is the guy who recently asked her if she ever had cause to use that little sword he gave her. He's not handing off the ball to Arya, he's in despair because he's failed unless his voice does what his body can't. (This for some reason reminds me of how people like to claim that the word "Bleucher" means "glue" in German and that's how come the horses whinny whenever Frau Bleucher says her name. No, they just whinny when she says her name.)

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Calling her "The Dragon Queen" was meant as at least slightly derogatory. 

Also, why would Daenerys be concerned about divided loyalties, unless Sansa was disloyal?

It's not that Daenerys is concerned about divided loyalties, imo it's that Sansa is saying very accurately that as someone who wants the North to be independent she'd obviously make a terrible wife for the hand of the queen who's the symbol of its not being independent. He'd have a wife who always trying to get him to influence his boss to do one thing and a boss always trying to get him to influence his wife to do the opposite. Doesn't mean Sansa would be planning to betray Dany.

Edited May 1, 2019 by sistermagpie

[GodsBeloved]

9 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

That's one option. But why would he spoil her stealth attack by screaming Go, Go?

I dunno. I can't get my head around it. 

Plus, if there was no plan and Jon at that moment realized Arya was the best hope and yelled GO! how would Arya know what he was talking about? 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If the dead won (the worst case scenario that was mentioned) nobody's rebuilding anything. The people in the crypt are dead too. This is a battle where they either win or it's over. The only difference between the people in the crypt and on the battlefield is that those upstairs are taking a chance on dying in battle. The people in the crypt are waiting for somebody else to decide their fate. Sansa telling them to think about re-populating would be nonsensical. 

That's how I took the scene. If Sam's alive it's because he's been slaughtering wights. He's just reached a point of exhaustion and despair.

Okay, I just watched it again and not seeing that at all.

Jon tries to sneak past the dragon--iow, it was *good* when the dragon was distracted from him as far as he was concerned. But the dragon turns around and keeps him there. Jon's then on the other side of the wall looking frustrated. The dragon isn't leaving, so he's stuck. So he stands up and yells. There's no moment of Jon seeing anything. He doesn't stand up as if he's trying to do something else and then he notice something and do something in response, who as we know, had no earlier plans to try to kill the NK herself. He stands up and plants his feet to yell and the dragon is already facing him and he yells something--I think it's either "NO!" or just a wordless frustration into its face.

It makes far more sense and require far less reaching to just see him doing what he appears to be doing, screaming in fury and frustration because *he* is being kept from protecting Bran and now everything is lost. As the showrunners said, this whole thing is a "we're fucked" montage. Jon in that moment is defeated. He doesn't have a last wild hope for Arya, who, btw, he doesn't know has the kind of skills she does. This is the guy who recently asked her if she ever had cause to use that little sword he gave her. He's not handing off the ball to Arya, he's in despair because he's failed unless his voice does what his body can't. (This for some reason reminds me of how people like to claim that the word "Bleucher" means "glue" in German and that's how come the horses whinny whenever Frau Bleucher says her name. No, they just whinny when she says her name.)

It's not that Daenerys is concerned about divided loyalties, imo it's that Sansa is saying very accurately that as someone who wants the North to be independent she'd obviously make a terrible wife for the hand of the queen who's the symbol of its not being independent. He'd have a wife who always trying to get him to influence his boss to do one thing and a boss always trying to get him to influence his wife to do the opposite. Doesn't mean Sansa would be planning to betray Dany.

I pretty much agree about Sansa.  She is not loyal to Daenerys, though perhaps not actively disloyal at least at this point. 

It reminds me a little of her wedding night with Tyrion.  A lot of people say it would have been rape if Tyrion had sex with her.  But, I took it that she was willing to do her duty and sleep with her husband, if she had to, but would greatly prefer not to. 

Daenerys as her Queen is sort of like an arranged marriage that Sansa is not happy with, but not ready to actively resist, at least not yet.  She barely goes through the motions of calling Dany her Queen but makes it rather clear with her tone that she is not happy about it.   

[JonasArm]

3 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Plus, if there was no plan and Jon at that moment realized Arya was the best hope and yelled GO! how would Arya know what he was talking about? 

The plan was to use Bran to lure the NK next to the big tree and kill him there.