S04.E13: The Seam

[paramitch]

First off, thank you so much, everyone who responded so thoughtfully to my massive Muppet-level flailings over the S4 finale! You were all so kind, and in this world right now, that is a great and powerful thing. And since I only have a few friends who watch the show, you guys were definitely a welcome and wonderful circle in which to share feelings about all this.

Here's my thing: The Magicians is one of those shows that -- I'm a pop culture writer and blogger, so I usually watch all this stuff with my critic's hat on -- which I know a lot of folks here do, too. But while I do that with the Magicians, there's also a part of me that watches from this almost innocent place. I love the books, but honestly, thanks to the show's ingenuity, writing and casting, I love the show even more. And I've loved it even when I felt like it wasn't always firing on all cylinders -- I remember telling a friend about Season 2 -- "It's fantastic, it's terrible, it's hilarious, and you're gonna see some cringe-level awkward shit now and then too where you simply go WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY DOING?" But that's what I love about this show. It's willing to take chances. And the cast has me so invested.

The cast also surprised me into different takes and reactions on characters. I was NOT a huge Quentin fan as a first-time bookreader, but Jason Ralph has been AMAZING in the role here and had this beautiful vulnerability and openness. I was also absolutely knocked out by Hale Appleman's choices; the moment he appeared lounging on that Brakebills sign, I was all in. I loved everyone however, and especially loved Esme Bianco as Eliza and Rick Worthy as Dean Fogg.

So basically, the show is one of those that I love from this really emotional, vulnerable place. I love tons of great TV, but a lot of it I can watch with a level of detachment. But this show I love BOTH as great TV but also like... I just love these people, and this universe. It really hits me hard when bad things happen to them.

On 4/23/2019 at 6:02 AM, MissL said:

Oh shoot. I just realized you were the poster that was so excited in escape from the happy place thread. I also wanted to jump in  and stop you from continuing (probably a lot of us did) and it was heartbreaking to see how thrilled you were knowing what was coming. But we don't "spoil" on here. 

I feel like the Q/Eliot shippers often feel like they have to justify being angry as not just a shipper thing but if it adds any validation I wasn't a shipper for those two (I wasn't against it I just wasn't invested although I absolutely love both characters) and still hated how this went down.  I think I've said it before but I don't really ship anyone on the show which is so odd for me. I just want to see all the friends together saving the day and screwing up but then trying to fix it with fish magic and cake. 

Thank you, MissL! You really made me feel better with this (I was honestly a little sheepish at how upset I was).

And I definitely get what you're saying about not shipping or having to ship to be upset or affected by the decisions here, etc. I DEFINITELY have ships but I'm here for our entire gang.

On 4/23/2019 at 6:18 AM, The Companion said:

This one has hit me hard too. I was thinking about going back to watch A Life in the Day and got too sad about watching Quentin. It is both a testament to the writers who have written characters we care deeply about and anger inducing towards them because the decision is so frustrating.  

I went back and watched it again too.  I still love it (and still love 4.5 as the companion piece). 

On 4/23/2019 at 6:40 AM, festivus said:

Yeah, I felt the same way. I knew what was coming and I felt bad for you @paramitch. You were so excited. 😥

I've got my wrap-up thoughts and I'll post them in separate post. Then I try to prepare myself for the next big heartbreaks coming my way; Endgame and Game of Thrones.

That was so nice of you, and seriously made me feel better. And I'm so with you Festivus, although I've armored my heart a little when it comes to Game of Thrones (I detached myself a little after a few things two seasons back that I just could not handle)... although I admit that this season is already completely killing me with how much I still love so many characters AGHGHGHG.

On 4/23/2019 at 7:13 AM, MissL said:

Dude. I know. It's going to be a ROUGH weekend. 

(ME: silently moves hands in precise Magicians-spellcast to give everyone a virtual hug)

On 4/23/2019 at 7:30 AM, festivus said:

I do think the writers patting themselves on the back for thinking they are so edgy for killing off the white male protagonist is a bunch of horse hockey. Quentin was never just that. It's not that simple.

I do still think this season was a mess on the whole and the only arc that had any resonance was Alice's. Eliot and Julia were sidelined. Penny 23 only seemed to exist to moon over Julia and call Marina out for looking up her girlfriend in this timeline when he was doing the exact same thing. Oh and to zap people where they needed to go of course. Kady's story mostly seemed like a set-up for next season. They better have a really kick-ass story then for her with the hedge witches. For some reason I love Pete so I hope he stays involved. We did learn more about Margo and what makes her tick so at least that was one plus from this season. It felt a bit rushed to me though. Like I said before they really dropped the ball on the monsters plot.

Right now I'm still angry enough that I have decided not to watch S5. It's NOT about killing Quentin. I could have applauded that for so many reasons. But the actuality (and subsequent interviews) just feel tired and tone-deaf on the issue and I'm furious enough that... noooo. 

But I'll see how it goes. I am also aware that I am fricking weak and LOVE this show so I'll probably watch with my arms crossed, waiting for them to fuck up. Which isn't fun but... well, we'll see. I wish them well, but... am not okay.

As far as the greater arc, see, for me Alice's was too obvious. I liked it, but for me the ones that were most meaningful were Eliot's, Margo's, Josh's, Fen's, and (surprisingly for me) Kady's. I liked both her evolution on the loss of Penny, as well as her surprise role with the Hedge Witches. I also love Pete (I've always felt that while deeply greyscale, he's not a bad guy, and I liked what we saw of him here). In terms of throughlines, I was disappointed in ZERO follow-up on the Fairy Queen and her sacrifice, as well as on the lack of exploration into Marina -- there were welcome signs in S1 and S2 that she wasn't just a stone-cold bitch, but this season seemed to backtrack back into tropes for her.

I enjoyed the lack of focus on Julia (who deserved a break), but I don't think she has any chemistry with Penny at all. Alice had tons but for some reason (despite canon) the show just won't go there.

On 4/23/2019 at 10:17 AM, tennisgurl said:

Oh god, watching your progression was so sad. I swear I wanted to warn you to stop watching and just live in the happy place, like many of us poor unfortunate souls here! You had the same feelings I did, so happy and excited, only for it all to be torn down, while the show runners pat themselves on the back for how awesome and brilliant they are. 

Really the more I think about it, the less sense it makes from a story telling perspective. This was a pretty Quentin lite season in general, especially if the writers knew it was going to be his last. What was his arc? Well, he wanted to save Elliot, and that was his goal for most of the season. He did technically accomplish that, but without any real closure. His death was more about Alice, a relationship that was sort of just thrown in at the last minute at the end of the season that never really made sense to me, and finally died to stop the bad guy, a bad guy who basically just showed up near the end of the show, without much personality or exploration of his motives. For his last season, I would have expected him to have had more time to deal with his depression, or his complicated relationships with his loved ones, especially Elliot and Alice, and if he had to die, at least give him some happiness, and not just an empty dark room and a metro ticket.

THANK YOU, Tennisgurl, and I hope you know how grateful I am for your posts and thoughts. I know it's dumb but you guys were awesome this past week end, because I was basically breaking up with my favorite show (and very upset that the producers would be THIS tone-deaf).

I think you make great points -- this season COULD have been about QUENTIN's search for meaning (not just Eliot's). About, even, his growth and understanding that sometimes love is about (1) letting go positively, and (2) that love can surprise us (Eliot).

My takes on this season's arcs:

• Poppy is still a sociopath. Funny but thankfully not present too often.
• I loved Fen's path here, showing real grief but also learning real rulership. She is the ruler Fillory has waited for.
• Eliot gives us the most profound revelations even if only in a few episodes
• We learn little about how Q feels or what he wants. He expresses a kind but understandable judgment toward Alice, but this is obliterated for a hasty final hookup. We only learn about Q's huge moment of revelation with Eliot via ELIOT. Q never expresses any of it this season at all. Not even at the end. The revelation that he may have killed himself destroys me, because it wasn't part of his visible arc. And for me there was a better story right in front of them: ABOUT TAKING CHANCES. His father died. He had lived 50 years in another dimension. He had battled depression. How much more brave for Q to take a chance on love with Eliot -- for good or ill?
• Margo is pretty tirelessly working to save Eliot and I love that, because that is who she is. And I love her falling for Josh. I really loved her arc this season and especially how it opened us up to her real courage, insecurity, loyalty and affection for those she cares about.
• Josh learns that he is truly loved for who he is beyond the bitter nerd persona. 
• Penny23 navigates his dual personas, although I feel we got far less arc for Penny40 than we needed -- he's suddenly all zen and awesome and it's too swift for me.

On 4/23/2019 at 2:02 PM, The Companion said:

I sort of love that we were all sitting here coming from the future and watching in horror. A bit of solidarity for us all? Totally agree with your point about giving him something at the end. His father would have made a lot of sense, as we had to see him mourning his father this season. 

THIS. (cries!)

On 4/23/2019 at 5:06 PM, generate789 said:

I really appreciate all of y'alls thoughtful posts. I did not want Q to die, both because I really like him as a character (SO much better than BookQ) and because I was riveted by his relationship with Eliot. I'm a cis straight person and a grown ass woman and when he and E kisssed in ALITD, I gasped and clapped like my teenage self did when watching Joey and Pacey.  I also completely agree with what a bunch of you said upthread: killing a protagonist just because he is male and white is not, in and of itself, progressive storytelling, especially considering that Q was not an aggro-bro-dude, but a sensitive, thoughtful, damaged, queer, three-dimensional character.  But yes, as others have also said, despite all of this, Jason Ralph acted the HELL out of that episode. 

Everything you just said. EVERYTHING! 

On 4/23/2019 at 8:08 PM, layofluthien said:

I think that this episode has destroyed the show for me. What Quentin did was suicide.....The writers are trying to now claim that it was a heroic sacrifice and not suicide. But John McNamera said in an interview that he wanted Q’s death to be ambiguously suicide. And an eagle eyed viewer has pointed out that during the bonfire scene the King of Heart, also know as the Suicide King, is designed to look like Quentin. 

I don’t think I can rewatch the show knowing that the depressed bi super nerd, who tried so hard and cared so much, kills himself. It’s too depressing.

I can’t even get started on Hale. His interviews from 4x05 are heartbreaking now. 

Thank you for pointing this out, and I feel so much the same, as well. The outcome was not required. It was not admirable. It was just... sad. Little and sad. And unfortunately came along with a singularly bleak, grey, dark, lonely vision of Quentin's afterlife (where he got the depressed person's sendoff "they'll miss me someday!"), then he literally disappears in a depressing empty subway. No sense at all that he is moving to a happier world. So upsetting.

I'm still so freaking sad. And I think that -- as smart as they can be -- the producers utterly screwed the pooch here. The constant self-congratulation after this episode has driven me absolutely nuts (I posted a lot of links in the media thread if it helps). l just do not agree with them at all.

I posted upthread here but -- Quentin had PLENTY OF  STORIES still worth telling. The subtext that he simply "ran out of stories" while being both depressed and bisexual  AND the heart of this show -- upsets me enormously.

On 4/23/2019 at 8:25 PM, Sauvage said:

SNIFF.   Incredible to think that at first i watched this show as a trashy guilty pleasure.  No expectation of investment....

I hated this finale but I admit 100% I was invested. This show has always invested me. And the actors too -- sniffle.

Edited April 27, 2019 by paramitch
oops, dropped a sentence

[festivus]

32 minutes ago, paramitch said:

That was so nice of you, and seriously made me feel better. And I'm so with you Festivus, although I've armored my heart a little when it comes to Game of Thrones (I detached myself a little after a few things two seasons back that I just could not handle)... although I admit that this season is already completely killing me with how much I still love so many characters AGHGHGHG.

I thought I had too and then they had episode two where everyone is back together and now I remember why I'm gonna care when some of these characters die. Damn you Game of Thrones! I know what you mean about being emotionally invested in The Magicians more than other shows though. It's like that for me too. Pretty much only for this show and the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

36 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Margo is pretty tirelessly working to save Eliot and I love that, because that is who she is. And I love her falling for Josh. I really loved her arc this season and especially how it opened us up to her real courage, insecurity, loyalty and affection for those she cares about.

Yeah, when I watch this season again as a whole, I think Margo's arc will probably come off as the best.

38 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I posted upthread here but -- Quentin had PLENTY OF  STORIES still worth telling. The subtext that he simply "ran out of stories" while being both depressed and bisexual  AND the heart of this show -- upsets me enormously.

Totally agree.

I can't quit the show though because I love Julia/Stella Maeve so much, Julia was also my favorite book character. Quentin was always my fourth favorite character in the books and a distant fourth at that. Jason Ralph did such great things with Q and made me love him. His loss had better resonate through the whole season next year. And Hale Appleman, I can't even think of words to say how great he is. I can never quit the show as long as he's still there. I'm even kind of excited for the first time to see what they'll do with Alice and Kady. I totally understand though that some people are done with the show after what they did.

[Catfi9ht]

I had been traveling for work the first couple of months of the year so I didn't get a chance to start this season live and am just now catching up.

Overall, I really hated this season. I think if I had been watching it live I would have stopped watching in the middle of the season. This feels like Buffy season 5 all over again, a meandering plot line with a boring villain and meta, cute episodes borderlining on self-indulgent. (I realize I'm in the minority with Buffy season 5 but the parallels were too great for me not to comment on it.) 

There are a few things I liked this season:

• The mind wipe plot wasn't dragged out
• Margo's character growth
• Cool guest stars like Jewel Staite and Matt Frewer

It really seems like The Magicians has lost its magic. (Sorry for the intentionally, terribly pun.) Everything I liked about this show, the ideas of innocence lost, viewing cherish childhood memories with adult eyes, the world-building, seems to have disappeared. 

For me, the whole season was stuck in the mud from a story and character perspective (minus Margo). Other than sending the villains to The Seam, what else was accomplished this season? Not really a whole heck of alot.

I'm out for season 5 which is a shame. I used to watch a lot of shows on SyFy. Now, I think Happy! is all that's left.

Ugh. I hate ending posts on a down note. What else did I like? I liked they didn't end the season on a cliffhanger.  :)

[Terrafamilia]

Regarding Quentin drinking or not drinking the underworld hot chocolate I have to say that sometimes we may be reading too much into things. On the other hand I would be remiss if I didn't point out that Josh and Q ate divine cake. If having eaten the food of the gods had any other effect than forever ruining mortal cake for them I have no clue.

[daisycat]

After trying to get him into it for soooo long, mr. daisycat finally binged it all the past few days. Well, he’s now on the penultimate episode, and I kinda want to tell him to just stop watching now. 💔

[kat165]

Daisy, let us know what he thinks of it.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I think that this episode has destroyed the show for me. 

Q's death definitely ruined this episode for me. I generally watch every episode twice, and I have done a complete rewatch of the first two seasons on Netflix on top of that. But I don't think I will ever watch this episode again. I just don't see a point. I'm sure I will check out next season but I don't think I'll ever do a re-watch of this season.

Quote

Also, why the heck did Penny23 decide on human? 

I think Julia as a full time goddess is a creative dead end if they want to keep the character on as a regular. The Gods just live on a different plane than the humans do and in order for Julia to remain actively involved with the rest of the core group she needs to be at the same level as they are. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Q's death definitely ruined this episode for me. I generally watch every episode twice, and I have done a complete rewatch of the first two seasons on Netflix on top of that. But I don't think I will ever watch this episode again. I just don't see a point. I'm sure I will check out next season but I don't think I'll ever do a re-watch of this season.

I think Julia as a full time goddess is a creative dead end if they want to keep the character on as a regular. The Gods just live on a different plane than the humans do and in order for Julia to remain actively involved with the rest of the core group she needs to be at the same level as they are. 

Agreed with all of this...I have rewatched everything else at least two or three times, including most of season four - I think I watched almost all the episodes this season three times right off the bat up until the last four or so. And I'm not sure I'll ever be ready to watch the last episode again.

Julia as a goddess was a really intriguing prospect, and I'll admit that I was probably rooting for that scenario, but, yeah...in the major scheme of things it would not have worked well.

[tennisgurl]

Maybe its because its still raw for me, but its going to be really hard watching old episodes again, even the ones I love the most. Its just so depressing knowing how Quentin's journey will end, especially in the episodes dealing with his depression, or his relationships. We know that, no matter how much he grew and changed and found love and friends and worked to overcome his depression, he will end his life in his early 20s, having just been miserable for awhile, then finally killing himself and being torn to pieces, never knowing that his best friend returned his romantic feelings for him, and walking alone into the dark. Its just so depressing, I dont think I can handle it. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by tennisgurl

[iMonrey]

Yeah, Netflix typically drops the last season right before the new one starts airing on SyFy, so I can generally refresh my memory on the previous season right before the new one starts up. I don't think I'll be doing that with Season 4. It's just too disheartening. Not only do I know where it's going but I'll feel even more cheated by how little actual story Quentin got this season leading up to his death.

[Linderhill]

I guess I have an unpopular opinion but I never saw Q and El as an endgame couple.  If anything, Sera Gamble loves to throw angst at her characters.  She wrote one of my favorite Supernatural episodes with Raelle Tucker, "Faith" and while I hate that she killed off Bobby in season 7, his two part episodes were outstanding -- even if it was gut wrenching.  The woman loves to torture her characters and her viewers.  This was the ultimate way of keeping Quentin and Elliot apart although I really didn't have any investment in the pair.  Their episode "A Life in a Day" was very moving but I didn't see it as an ultimate pairing.  Elliot and Quentin are too damaged to allow themselves that happiness long term.  

As to what was accomplished this season? Magic is back in the world for everyone, not just the Library or that family that was butchering fairies.  I'm also kind of happy that Original Flavor Penny is chill and pleasant now.  He was such a massive dick the first season.  I would never forgive him for destroying Quentin's Fillory book.  Penny 23 is such a more pleasant person despite his infatuation with Julia.  But then you can't blame him for that since they were an item in his timeline.

I'm curious as to how season 5 will go.

[treasaigh]

8 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

You should know that Sera posted something to Twitter that only enraged people more. And they're not holding back.

I don't understand how there are shows running for 15 seasons (SPN?), and this show's like 4 seasons in and have nothing more to say? They couldn't find ANY story for Quentin? NOTHING?

Like, they're WRITERS. I'm a writer. I know what they're saying is just a bunch of BS.

I do love Eliot. With all my heart. But killing off Quentin wasn't brave. It was done for shock value and to make people talk about it, and I guess they got their wish. 

I do wonder if they were in this huge bubble, where they didn't expect the amount of backlash they're getting. Like maybe they thought people would be sad and lament Quentin's passing but not get enraged.

Their responses thus far have been smug and condescending. As many of the Twitter commenters said, very "thoughts and prayers" with no substance.

As someone who is not on Twitter, what did she say?

Honestly, I don't know if they really couldn't come up with anything else to say with Quentin or if they are using that as an excuse for something else.  But even if it isn't the real reason they could be more sensitive.  Which I would have assumed they were capable of being more considerate since they were writing a show that included many queer characters.  The fact they aren't just reinforced to me that the show I thought I was watching is not the show the showrunners/producers are making.  

[Yokosmom]

Sigh.  I never watched this show, then recently bingewatched the first three seasons on Netflix and fell in love with it.  By the time that I was done, the 4th season was pretty much over, except for the final episode.  "What the hell", I thought.  "So what if I just see the season ending, I'll catch up with the rest of it over the summer."

Well that went well...  Quentin is the heart of the show to me.  I haven't always liked his character, but to me, he's the person who held it all together.  As much as I like the other characters (especially Eliot and Margot), I think that I'm stopping here.  

Agree that the writers are tone deaf and that their explanation (his arc was done, we couldn't think up more stories for him (really?), bad things happen to good people) or whatever, is totally bogus. They went for shock value and then patted themselves on the back for being clever.  I suspect that I'm not the only person who will drop this show now and the ratings will drop.  I'm not saying that a show can't kill off a popular character, but there has to be a lot of thought put into that and I truly don't think they went beyond "cool, let's kill off Quentin"--it will be shocking and awesome and aren't we clever".

[Beatrice]

Dang just caught up. Sorry for all the Quentin fans. I don't care for him either way but I have totally been there where a show has killed a character I've loved for years. Multiple times actually. It sucks.

[rwlevin]

6 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

What you did was dangerous. You knew your fandom was full of people with mental health issues, who identified strongly with the characters, you delighted in that fact ... and you aired that finale with no warning, knowing full well it would upset and endanger vulnerable people.

Yeah, I’m one of those people. Not only that, I’ve had two friends who have committed suicide, one who has attempted on multiple occasions and even I was hospitalized once for suicidal ideation. I also had 2 other acquaintances who committed suicide so I honestly believe the idea should not be used for drama, especially in a show like this.

Quentin was all of us depressed, bisexual loners who are just looking for a place to belong. And the it looks like he’s finally about to find it and...no, just no. Unless they can fix this mess next year, I don’t know.

[Grace284]

I usually think it's a bit embarrassing when fans proclaim they could have written a better story than the writers, but after reading all the speculation in the build up to the finale I think it's actually true in this case. There were so many great predictions about what would happen with the monster storyline and it was just abandoned, used as a means to get Quentin into a position to carry out the world's slowest throw.

Putting aside all the actively harmful what-the-shit aspects of the episode, it was just a godawful mess that seemed to have been written by someone who had never seen the show before but had gotten a brief recap from a drunk guy who had seen a couple of episodes on mute in an electronics store.

[mammaM]

On 5/11/2019 at 10:50 AM, Grace284 said:

I usually think it's a bit embarrassing when fans proclaim they could have written a better story than the writers, but after reading all the speculation in the build up to the finale I think it's actually true in this case. There were so many great predictions about what would happen with the monster storyline and it was just abandoned, used as a means to get Quentin into a position to carry out the world's slowest throw.

Putting aside all the actively harmful what-the-shit aspects of the episode, it was just a godawful mess that seemed to have been written by someone who had never seen the show before but had gotten a brief recap from a drunk guy who had seen a couple of episodes on mute in an electronics store.

I'm still annoyed and pissed off at the show but this👆made me smile. And the description of who wrote the episode made me laugh out loud. Thank you

[Darian]

I still have the episode on my DVR, which uses cloud storage. I noticed the title is different, so it must have been updated. When I recorded it and watched it the night it aired, it was The Seam. Now it's No Better to Be Safe than Sorry. 

My possibly silly theory is that by putting the emphasis on the song at the end the producers expected and intended the song to do a lot of heavy lifting with regard to Quentin's arc. That's what they meant and when so many fans reacted as they/we did, they changed the title is a late attempt at damage control. Listening to lyrics "Slowly learning that life is ok," etc, I think they thought the song would do more than it did to convey that Quentin was ok, that he didn't want to die, didn't die by suicide, but a true sacrifice after making  peace (hey, his middle name) with his life. 

It's not a defense and I think they failed, but that's my guess. The acting, especially by Jason Ralph, was stellar and certainly could have conveyed that if it had been written in better or at all. I feel for those who feel betrayed and are grieving and I can't imagine your pain. Again, I am not defending the show runners at all. Not for the decision to kill Q or how they handled (what should not have been) the end of his arc. 

I'm weak. I'll probably be back. But I get why others won't. 

[toolazy]

On 6/5/2019 at 4:44 PM, Darian said:

I'm weak. I'll probably be back. But I get why others won't. 

I will be, but I'm only in it for Elliot and Margo.  

As for the episode title, IMDB is still showing "The Seam" but the Magicians wiki has the new title and a mention of its original title.  

[kieyra]

Currently tied with GoT/Jon kills Dany in the “least favorite moments” poll.

Edited June 11, 2019 by kieyra

[DigitalCount]

Wow, I made a huge mistake waiting so long to watch this. I fell behind this season and figured I'd catch it on Netflix, but then found out that it would only be up in like November, so I knew I couldn't wait that long. So I planned to use...other means of seeing the last three episodes. But then I saw elsewhere that someone was feeling as if they had been queerbaited "just like in The Magicians" and I realized: someone died. The sadness expressed in the post I saw convinced me it had to be death, and so I tried to prepare myself for them to kill Elliot. I wasn't happy about it and it seemed like a waste, but it seemed like it was basically confirmed.

Then I caught the episode where QnA get back together and had to laugh at myself. Lol, I was jumping to conclusions. I was overreacting, overthinking. I was hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras. TBH, I was a little surprised that the person's post I'd seen was so bitter about the ending just because they weren't together for the time being, but they'd still be in each other's lives once Quentin saved Elliot.

Then I watched the finale.

I don't think I've ever felt so gutted by a character death. Live-action TV, anime, book reading, video games. All of them contained shocking deaths, and yet the one that hit the hardest was this poor, self-conscious, anxious and depressed young man who started the series institutionalized for an attempt and ended it dying to stop someone who wasn't even the final boss. And the moment he showed up in Penny's office I knew he was going to ask if the culprit was his mental health, and I knew they were going to butcher the answer.

Quentin Coldwater died by suicide. I'm sorry to anyone who wanted Quelliot; I did too. But apparently the story they wanted to write was one where this guy who always tried to do what was right, even if he didn't always understand how or why, even if he was supremely outclassed by all his enemies and the people who wanted to see him fail, decided his life wasn't inherently worth enough, and then had it reinforced by the narrative. So I probably won't be back TBH, and it'll be hard for me to watch another Sera Gamble show. Heck, it makes me want to stop writing, even, because after a glance at Twitter, I would never want to inadvertently hurt people the way that she has.

From what I've read, Jason is doing great work fighting homelessness now, and I wish him the best. I hope that the show is still enjoyable for the people who will continue into S5. I don't want it to be poisoned like it is for me. But it is poisoned for me, and I just don't know. Maybe I'll give it an episode--I know people have theories regarding the Dark Lord in Fillory--but I don't think I have it in me to really engage with it anymore.

[kieyra]

@DigitalCount, I’m sorry. Many of us went through this.

I’ve stuck to my guns. No Netflix rewatches (so no streaming ratings for them), no recommendations to friends. I do miss the show’s world, but I don’t know else how to send the message. The world is shit right now. Yes, art is about reflecting the state of the world, and about creating an emotional impact. That impact shouldn’t be to celebrate suicide amongst a vulnerable viewership. It shouldn’t be to create something beautiful and then knock it over like a bully kicking a sandcastle.

THIS IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, SHOWRUNNERS.

[chaifan]

I'm a bit late to the game here, but I just finished the season on Netflix.  I need to put on my best Margo cold hearted bitch here because I have to say it - Quentin's death didn't shock me, devastate me, anger me, or anything.  I'll admit to not being a huge Q fan, but I really liked the character this season.  I liked how he went out and I have no problem with the character being gone for good.  I do wish the "fixer of broken things" had been brought up earlier in the season (or whole series), but like how it was tied in at the very end.

Julia - many posts above talk about Penny making the decision for Julia, and that either choice would be an "arduous journey".  But that is not correct.  The Brakebills Doctor (sorry, can't remember her name) says that Julia's problem is that the wound keeps opening back up as soon as it heals.  Here's what the Binder then says to Penny (I rewatched and put it on CC to get this):

The Binder then tells Penny he made the right choice.  Julia, the Binder explained, would remain in a cycle of wounding, agony for millennia.  Her body required transformation.  Luckily, this was The Binder's expertise.  The Binder needed direction.  Initiate her long arduous journey to full goddesshood or revert her body to that of a mere human?

So Penny had the choice - let Julia spend 1,000 years in agony as her wound healed and reopened (this is the "arduous journey"), or let The Binder "transform" her - return her to being human so she could heal normally.  As the doctor said, this was a "no brainer" decision. 

Loved the bonfire scene, but I didn't get the throwing personal items into the fire.  Is that a thing among Magicians or Breakbills?  Most of the stuff, no big deal, except for the signed Fillory book.  I liked the musical number.  The cast has some amazing vocal talent (Kady, especially) and I think they way they divided it up used the talent well.  But it hit all the right emotions for me for that scene, in a way dialog wouldn't have been able to. 

I liked bringing in the hedgewitches at the end, too.  I'm hoping that in Season 5 the Brakebills vs. hedgewitch caste system gets broken down.  Also hoping that in Season 5 Alice goes back to her normal speaking voice, instead of the breathy I may start crying at any moment affect she's had this whole season. 

I enjoyed this season, and am looking forward to Season 5 (I may get Prime so I can watch it in real time).  One thing I only noticed in the last few episodes - that all the women in the Library have the 40's style hair, makeup and (somewhat) dress.  I thought it was just the main Librarian's style, but when Kady went in with her she was all done up in the same style, and then I noticed all the other women, too.  I wonder what they all looked like prior to the 1940's?

[paramitch]

Hey y'all! Just responding again YEARS LATER. Sorry. The show pissed me off. And honestly, I'm still pissed. But I wanted to check the thread again, and send a wave. I hope you are all safe and well despite our horrible world. (Sending magic and virtual hugs!)

On 4/27/2019 at 5:53 AM, festivus said:

I can't quit the show though because I love Julia/Stella Maeve so much, Julia was also my favorite book character. Quentin was always my fourth favorite character in the books and a distant fourth at that. Jason Ralph did such great things with Q and made me love him. His loss had better resonate through the whole season next year. And Hale Appleman, I can't even think of words to say how great he is. I can never quit the show as long as he's still there.

I didn't go back (still have never even glimpsed a moment of Season 5) out of sheer rage, but I agree with you about your beloved characters and actors. I'm so excited to see what Hale does next, especially, because he has this effortless charisma that you can't teach, it's simply there.

On 4/30/2019 at 1:21 PM, iMonrey said:

Q's death definitely ruined this episode for me. I generally watch every episode twice, and I have done a complete rewatch of the first two seasons on Netflix on top of that. But I don't think I will ever watch this episode again. I just don't see a point. I'm sure I will check out next season but I don't think I'll ever do a re-watch of this season. 

I have rewatched this season, but I stopped when things still made sense, when Elliot fought his possession to tell Elliot he would come back for him. I love so much of the season, still. Just not the final 2-3 episodes where basically the writers sold their souls or something. I dunno.

On 4/30/2019 at 10:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

Maybe its because its still raw for me, but its going to be really hard watching old episodes again, even the ones I love the most. Its just so depressing knowing how Quentin's journey will end, especially in the episodes dealing with his depression, or his relationships. We know that, no matter how much he grew and changed and found love and friends and worked to overcome his depression, he will end his life in his early 20s, having just been miserable for awhile, then finally killing himself and being torn to pieces, never knowing that his best friend returned his romantic feelings for him, and walking alone into the dark. Its just so depressing, I dont think I can handle it. 

I get this; the way I've gotten around is that I have magical powers myself, and my magical power is, I refuse to accept the ending of Season 4. I ignore it. I do not believe in it, it made zero sense, was embarrassing, and for me it doesn't exist. Quentin is fine somewhere as is our entire gang. In my mind, I stopped the show about 3/4 through S4 and that's where I'll stay with it. Sadly. (Also, sending hugs, dammit.)

On 5/6/2019 at 8:46 AM, treasaigh said:

... even if it isn't the real reason they could be more sensitive.  Which I would have assumed they were capable of being more considerate since they were writing a show that included many queer characters.  The fact they aren't just reinforced to me that the show I thought I was watching is not the show the showrunners/producers are making.  

Beautifully put and exactly. And yeah, 2.5 years later? I'm still pissed.

On 5/6/2019 at 1:39 PM, Yokosmom said:

Agree that the writers are tone deaf and that their explanation (his arc was done, we couldn't think up more stories for him (really?), bad things happen to good people) or whatever, is totally bogus. They went for shock value and then patted themselves on the back for being clever.  I suspect that I'm not the only person who will drop this show now and the ratings will drop.  I'm not saying that a show can't kill off a popular character, but there has to be a lot of thought put into that and I truly don't think they went beyond "cool, let's kill off Quentin"--it will be shocking and awesome and aren't we clever".

I 100% agree with everything you said here.

On 5/6/2019 at 2:40 PM, Beatrice said:

Dang just caught up. Sorry for all the Quentin fans. I don't care for him either way but I have totally been there where a show has killed a character I've loved for years. Multiple times actually. It sucks.

This was really nice of you. I was surprised how powerfully upset I was. Especially given Quentin's arc in the books. The show's choice for him feels like such a betrayal of that, and of his larger arc.

On 5/6/2019 at 6:34 PM, rwlevin said:

Quentin was all of us depressed, bisexual loners who are just looking for a place to belong. And the it looks like he’s finally about to find it and...no, just no. 

I am so very sorry for what you've been through, and am sending you all possible thoughts and support. I'm recently out as bi, I've battled depression for years (and lost loved ones to suicide), so I get everything you said here. And it's all the more reason for me to feel betrayed by the showrunners' choices. The fact that they chose what they did here -- and with the emphases they did -- to me is irresponsible and honestly downright cruel. They didn't have to have Quentin's death an implied suicide. Of a recent self-confessed bi character (whose bisexuality they patted themselves on the back about when they KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO TO HIM). Gah.

Sending you all possible thoughts and support. Hope you're okay.

On 5/11/2019 at 7:50 AM, Grace284 said:

I usually think it's a bit embarrassing when fans proclaim they could have written a better story than the writers, but after reading all the speculation in the build up to the finale I think it's actually true in this case. There were so many great predictions about what would happen with the monster storyline and it was just abandoned, used as a means to get Quentin into a position to carry out the world's slowest throw.

Putting aside all the actively harmful what-the-shit aspects of the episode, it was just a godawful mess that seemed to have been written by someone who had never seen the show before but had gotten a brief recap from a drunk guy who had seen a couple of episodes on mute in an electronics store.

I love everything you wrote here so much. Thank you for this!

On 8/25/2019 at 7:41 PM, DigitalCount said:

Then I watched the finale.

I don't think I've ever felt so gutted by a character death. Live-action TV, anime, book reading, video games. All of them contained shocking deaths, and yet the one that hit the hardest was this poor, self-conscious, anxious and depressed young man who started the series institutionalized for an attempt and ended it dying to stop someone who wasn't even the final boss. And the moment he showed up in Penny's office I knew he was going to ask if the culprit was his mental health, and I knew they were going to butcher the answer.

Quentin Coldwater died by suicide. I'm sorry to anyone who wanted Quelliot; I did too. But apparently the story they wanted to write was one where this guy who always tried to do what was right, even if he didn't always understand how or why, even if he was supremely outclassed by all his enemies and the people who wanted to see him fail, decided his life wasn't inherently worth enough, and then had it reinforced by the narrative. So I probably won't be back TBH, and it'll be hard for me to watch another Sera Gamble show. Heck, it makes me want to stop writing, even, because after a glance at Twitter, I would never want to inadvertently hurt people the way that she has.

This. And I'm so sorry. I loved your entire very witty, eloquent post, and felt a similar sense of betrayal. Thank you for putting your feelings into words like this -- and sending virtual hugs.

On 8/27/2019 at 8:41 PM, kieyra said:

I’ve stuck to my guns. No Netflix rewatches (so no streaming ratings for them), no recommendations to friends. I do miss the show’s world, but I don’t know else how to send the message. The world is shit right now. Yes, art is about reflecting the state of the world, and about creating an emotional impact. That impact shouldn’t be to celebrate suicide amongst a vulnerable viewership. It shouldn’t be to create something beautiful and then knock it over like a bully kicking a sandcastle.

THIS IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, SHOWRUNNERS.

@kieyra, I always enjoy your posts, and this was beautifully put. I feel the same way. It's been years now, and I am still never going to watch more of this show. I am a critic; I can handle a show not going where I want it to go. BUT.

What the showrunners did here was simply cruel; and unnecessarily so. They showed us a surprising and lovely potential story that had a ton of rich exploration to mine. They did PRESS TOURS about it. They bragged about bi Quentin and Quelliot and how world-changing it was. The sent Hale Appleman out to do those same media interviews (openly unaware of the ending), where he talks about how thrilled he is about the characterization, plot and options for Quentin and Elliot. Where he talks about how delighted he is by the revelations about Quentin's feelings for Elliot.

When they knew what they were going to do. When they knew Quentin would never actually fulfill that romance with Elliot or even have a single meaningful scene to follow with him. Not one.

It's just nasty, on an unnecessary level I can't forgive. Always will be. I never went back again.

[mammaM]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Hey y'all! Just responding again YEARS LATER. Sorry. The show pissed me off. And honestly, I'm still pissed. But I wanted to check the thread again, and send a wave. I hope you are all safe and well despite our horrible world. (Sending magic and virtual hugs!)

I didn't go back (still have never even glimpsed a moment of Season 5) out of sheer rage, but I agree with you about your beloved characters and actors. I'm so excited to see what Hale does next, especially, because he has this effortless charisma that you can't teach, it's simply there.

I have rewatched this season, but I stopped when things still made sense, when Elliot fought his possession to tell Elliot he would come back for him. I love so much of the season, still. Just not the final 2-3 episodes where basically the writers sold their souls or something. I dunno.

I get this; the way I've gotten around is that I have magical powers myself, and my magical power is, I refuse to accept the ending of Season 4. I ignore it. I do not believe in it, it made zero sense, was embarrassing, and for me it doesn't exist. Quentin is fine somewhere as is our entire gang. In my mind, I stopped the show about 3/4 through S4 and that's where I'll stay with it. Sadly. (Also, sending hugs, dammit.)

Beautifully put and exactly. And yeah, 2.5 years later? I'm still pissed.

I 100% agree with everything you said here.

This was really nice of you. I was surprised how powerfully upset I was. Especially given Quentin's arc in the books. The show's choice for him feels like such a betrayal of that, and of his larger arc.

I am so very sorry for what you've been through, and am sending you all possible thoughts and support. I'm recently out as bi, I've battled depression for years (and lost loved ones to suicide), so I get everything you said here. And it's all the more reason for me to feel betrayed by the showrunners' choices. The fact that they chose what they did here -- and with the emphases they did -- to me is irresponsible and honestly downright cruel. They didn't have to have Quentin's death an implied suicide. Of a recent self-confessed bi character (whose bisexuality they patted themselves on the back about when they KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO TO HIM). Gah.

Sending you all possible thoughts and support. Hope you're okay.

I love everything you wrote here so much. Thank you for this!

This. And I'm so sorry. I loved your entire very witty, eloquent post, and felt a similar sense of betrayal. Thank you for putting your feelings into words like this -- and sending virtual hugs.

@kieyra, I always enjoy your posts, and this was beautifully put. I feel the same way. It's been years now, and I am still never going to watch more of this show. I am a critic; I can handle a show not going where I want it to go. BUT.

What the showrunners did here was simply cruel; and unnecessarily so. They showed us a surprising and lovely potential story that had a ton of rich exploration to mine. They did PRESS TOURS about it. They bragged about bi Quentin and Quelliot and how world-changing it was. The sent Hale Appleman out to do those same media interviews (openly unaware of the ending), where he talks about how thrilled he is about the characterization, plot and options for Quentin and Elliot. Where he talks about how delighted he is by the revelations about Quentin's feelings for Elliot.

When they knew what they were going to do. When they knew Quentin would never actually fulfill that romance with Elliot or even have a single meaningful scene to follow with him. Not one.

It's just nasty, on an unnecessary level I can't forgive. Always will be. I never went back again.

THIS! All of it. Thanks for saying it

[Jynnan tonnix]

Very interesting to see that there are new replies here just as I am rewatching the last couple of seasons. To be honest, until I read my post upthread, I was sure that I had not rewatched any of the final two, possibly three seasons. I guess, since most of my TV watching tended to be done later in the evening accompanied by a few glasses of wine, there was a lot of detail that kinda got blurred, but given that I'm currently on a medication that precludes alcohol, when I happened upon reference to a rewatch I'd done of the Les Miz musical episode, I just started a whole rewatch again at that point to see if I could follow some of the more intricate plot points better with a clear head. 

It did take me a few false starts to get to the end of this episode, but I did manage to do it, but I have to say that while I do suffer from a sort of low-grade but pretty chronic depression - never actually to the point of being suicidal - I still don't quite see where the consensus of Q's death being suicide really comes in. I didn't get the sense that he wanted to die as much as his actions at the very end being those of someone having to react in a split second to basically save the world, and doing what felt like the only option in that space of time. 

And though I get that Quentin was sort of the glue that held everything together, I think I was more gutted by the loss to Eliot than anything else. 

The first times I watched this season, I rather disliked it mostly in that I really missed Eliot, as much as Hale was still a major character, but this time around, while the Monster was still completely irredeemable on the whole, I found that I was really intrigued by the way Hale played him as discovering something akin to actual feelings not entirely tied to his need for constant attention and amusement. There was a surprising depth, and even hints of a glimmer of empathy there at certain moments. 

[paramitch]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:15 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

It did take me a few false starts to get to the end of this episode, but I did manage to do it, but I have to say that while I do suffer from a sort of low-grade but pretty chronic depression - never actually to the point of being suicidal - I still don't quite see where the consensus of Q's death being suicide really comes in. I didn't get the sense that he wanted to die as much as his actions at the very end being those of someone having to react in a split second to basically save the world, and doing what felt like the only option in that space of time. 

And though I get that Quentin was sort of the glue that held everything together, I think I was more gutted by the loss to Eliot than anything else. 

The first times I watched this season, I rather disliked it mostly in that I really missed Eliot, as much as Hale was still a major character, but this time around, while the Monster was still completely irredeemable on the whole, I found that I was really intrigued by the way Hale played him as discovering something akin to actual feelings not entirely tied to his need for constant attention and amusement. There was a surprising depth, and even hints of a glimmer of empathy there at certain moments. 

Quentin openly says to Penny that he suspects he acted out of a desire to self-harm:

"Most of my life I've been in and out of hospitals, and you know, just suicidal thoughts and notes, and...a lot of notes. Attempts, and meds, and therapy, and then I found Brakebills, and all that went away. I thought that... Did I do something brave to save my friends? Or did I finally find a way to kill myself?"

On the rest of your post, I agree that Hale was wonderful as the villain even if I (like you) absolutely missed sweet Elliot. But even the villain was a fascinating and really genuinely interesting performance (and character).

I was gutted by the loss of Quentin, gutted by the loss of Quentin to Elliot and his friends, and gutted that the show apparently had amnesia about what this would mean to Elliot, so no attention was paid in that horrible final "Take on Me" scene at all. It's like Quelliot never existed. Instead, it's all about everyone making Alice feel better. It's a beautiful scene and rendition of the song. As long as we ignore the entire subtext of the season and what ELLIOT lost here, too. (Yes, Alice would feel deeply about Q's loss -- for that matter, so would Julia. But the campfire singalong tribute suddenly goes 100% heterosexual and there's total amnesia about Elliot/Quentin, and I'll always be so angry.)

And that just felt so wrong to me. Elliot spent this season realizing Quentin was the love of his life. The producers gleefully promoted this ("yay! we're so woke!") and even did a press tour and sent out Hale to do interviews about how brave that the show had an openly bisexual male lead.

Ha.

Then the final few episodes, Q goes back to Alice (so toxic!), never talks to Elliot at all about their mutual feelings, then sacrifices himself -- and everyone feels super-bad for Alice.

Nope. Still hate it. My blood pressure rose just writing this.

Edited August 14, 2022 by paramitch
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