S04.E13: The Seam

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Two videos of Take on Me!

This one has all the Quentin/Penny40 dialogue but does not include the end of the song (this is the official clip on the Syfy youtube channel):

This one has all of the singing but the dialogue has been removed:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Stitches in time:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Mayakovsky telling Quentin that his specialty was repair of small objects reminded me of the original Slayer telling Buffy "death is your gift" and Spike saying "it's always got to be blood." These details led to Quentin and Buffy realizing that their purpose was to sacrifice themselves in order to save the world.

And similar to Quentin's depression, Buffy struggled with the whole "all slayers have a death wish" thing, so I saw a parallel between Buffy jumping off the tower and Quentin questioning whether he saved his friends or found a way to kill himself.

I hadn't read any press about the finale before watching it so I just assumed that Quentin would still be around next season because he's not the first main character to die on this show. But now that I've read some of the interviews, I'm really sad at the thought of the show not having Quentin. Although this has been an ensemble show from the beginning, we entered this world through Quentin and the characters are connected through him, so it really feels like his absence will leave a huge hole in the group as well as the show.

I did find it kind of funny that Quentin was ushered to the underworld by Penny40, the guy who he tormented by singing Taylor Swift. Seeing them in the underworld showed how much both of them have changed and grown, as well as how much their relationship has changed since S1.

I really felt for Penny23 because he was put in a terrible position. No one else was going to make a choice for Julia and she wasn't conscious to make that decision for herself. The Binder specifically said that becoming a goddess would be a long and arduous journey. Even though I think Penny23 knew that Julia didn't want to lose all of her magical abilities, she'd already done it once before and was okay. She was in a lot of pain so I think that his choice to have her become human again was not intended to make her ordinary but to heal her as quickly as possible.

I wish that just about any other character had been with Penny23 in the mirror world when Quentin made his sacrifice (but then we wouldn't have had those beautiful slow motion shots of Alice's silky blonde hair in motion as Penny23 pulled her away, right?). Yes, Alice loved him but there was so much pain between them. I liked that Quentin finally forgave her and said that he missed her because that seems realistic to me. I know I've had relationships where someone hurt me but I eventually forgave them, and I never stopped loving them even when I was hurt and angry. It's okay to love someone and forgive them. That doesn't mean you have to jump back into having a romantic relationship again though, so I wish they had left it at Quentin and Alice being friends and leaving the anger and mistrust at the door.

The ceremony they had for Quentin was so beautiful and personal, but of course I found myself thinking why are you throwing that in the fire? KEEP IT!

[kat165]

Thanks, EB.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Still, I suspect it's rather a moot point by now. I think that once someone takes the Underworld Metro it's pretty much a done deal. 

Yes, there seems to be a distinction between being in the Underworld, and going wherever it is one goes once they use the metro card. The Underworld is serving as a sort of way station or limbo before a soul moves on. There was a finality to Quentin taking that card and walking through that doorway.

Quote

 I still don't know HOW Quentin died or why the mirror sucked him and Everett in to begin with. And that's a big problem with my emotional response to the death.

Alice has warned more than once that magic in the mirror world goes horribly wrong. For me, the emotional impact of Quentin's death was somewhat lessened by the fact that they have really back-burnered the character all season long. He didn't have a major story of his own the way Margo did, or Eliot, or Julia or Alice. The writers probably wanted to deemphasize the character so the audience would gradually get used to his absence, but in doing so the impact of his death didn't hit the same emotion beat. It was more of a shock than anything else and I maintain the biggest reason they killed him off was shock value. They wanted everyone to be impressed with how daring they were.

Quote

I think I would be less irritated if they didn't have Penny40 tell Quentin what would happen to all his friends next to make him accept the Underworld metropass because all it did for me was make think was that the are creatively bankrupt and Quentin's death was a desperate attempt to reignite their inspiration that failed.

Ditto.

[ProudMary]

17 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is an excellent way to say how I'm feeling.  I got too invested in this show's quality.  I should have known better.

i don't think the mirror sucked them in.  I think that his use of magic in the mirror realm and created sparks, a lot of them, that for lack of a better term ashed or disintegrated them.  

Interesting idea. I wonder why nothing happened when Everett cast to break the mirror and disable the seam.

14 hours ago, Hobo.PassingThru said:

And, what happened with Julia over the past three seasons was messed up. It's great she has magic but has she been allowed to make any major life decisions that determine her destiny? She didn't get into Brakebills until timeline 40; she became a god; she lost her god powers; her goddess got killed before her eyes; Penny 23 (and his crappy choices) chose her direction for her.

Julia got into Brakebills 39 times prior to timeline 40.  She was the variable in the 40th timeline. But you're certainly correct that, at least for timeline 40, it was a decision made for her over which she had no agency.

JMO, but I think the jury's still out on which choice Penny made for Julia. We didn't see Penny's conversation with The Binder and I don't think anything that was said between Penny and Julia in the Brakebills library completely rules out the goddess possibility. Their conversation seemed to indicate that he'd chosen for her to be human but I think it may have been a misdirect.  Perhaps we're seeing the beginnings of her "long and arduous journey to goddesshood."  We have no idea what that would look like.  It could have taken her back to square one where she seemed to have no magical ability.

Also, I won't fault Julia for coming down so hard on Penny because she must be suffering PTSD, but whichever choice he made, poor Penny had to made a split-second decision on the human/goddess issue.  Julia has known for quite some time that she has the ability to choose which way she wants to go and seemingly was unable to make that decision even when pressed by OLU/Persephone, instead inactively deciding to remain in the physically invulnerable but unable to do magic condition she was in.

[festivus]

Even though I still think it was a mistake to kill Quentin, after watching the fireside funeral a few more times I have reached the stage: Acceptance. When Eliot took the peach, kissed it and threw it in the fire I think Quentin did know how Eliot felt about him and I think he understood the regret. Even so because I'm a maudlin motherfucker I've picked out my sad Eliot song Hearts - Marty Balin If I could write I'd so be writing a heartbreaking fanfic right now.

I liked how Eliot took Alice's hand. Maybe they can help one another with their grief. She really needs a connection to someone else in the group. Like Quentin, I'm most worried about Julia. She lost her childhood best friend. Please let there be a good story for her next year. Maybe their grief could help these three connect. I'm really not that interested in the romantic plots of Julia/Penny or Margo/Josh. 

All in all, I'm unsatisfied with this season. I think so much more could have been done with the monster plot and so much of it (the season) just felt like a set up for Alice and Kady's stories next year. I think Monster could have been fascinating, especially if Eliot had to deal with him now that he's out of Eliot's body. The monster felt a connection to Quentin, how interesting that could have been. At least one good thing will come from this and that's no shipper wars now. Nothing makes me leave a forum faster.

Edited April 20, 2019 by festivus
Should check my shit better before posting

[Terrafamilia]

3 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Interesting idea. I wonder why nothing happened when Everett cast to break the mirror and disable the seam. 

Everett picked up something from the big table in the room and later threw that at the mirror.

[ProudMary]

5 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Everett picked up something from the big table in the room and later threw that at the mirror.

Thanks.  I didn't make that connection.

[kb3]

Am I missing something? Why did Quentin hesistate I throwing the container into the seam when Everett showed up?  It felt like there was this long pause of waiting and then the whole tense conversation. Why did he not just throw the thing in? No one could cast without consequences so driven as Everett was he still threw a physical object.  That thy could see he was holding.  

[Hobo.PassingThru]

Exactly.

Then there is the fact that Quinton tossed in the first jarsuccessfully and Everett threw the knife (or whatever it was) and it just broke the mirror.

That's lame.

No matter what weirdo excuse they use for how something could break the mirror- an open door to another dimension or some crap- Everett broke it.

Lame. Maybe if Everett had knocked over the mirror and broke it, sure, it would break. But, nope. He just threw some random thing at the portal and the glass broke. (eyeroll)

[MissL]

7 hours ago, Hobo.PassingThru said:

Exactly.

Then there is the fact that Quinton tossed in the first jarsuccessfully and Everett threw the knife (or whatever it was) and it just broke the mirror.

That's lame.

No matter what weirdo excuse they use for how something could break the mirror- an open door to another dimension or some crap- Everett broke it.

Lame. Maybe if Everett had knocked over the mirror and broke it, sure, it would break. But, nope. He just threw some random thing at the portal and the glass broke. (eyeroll)

Oh my gosh I didn't even think of that! Why would it have broken the mirror and not just flown into the seam?

And why ARE nickels bigger than dimes?

So I'm an idiot and added Cruel World to my Spotify playlist because it's a pretty song and I thought I'd be fine...then it came on while I was on the train and I started picturing Qs death scene. Not ok. Good song though. 

I think I've moved to the anger phase of grief. I didn't need to be shocked that they killed the main character. I'm ok accepting that certain characters are safe. There is still drama there. This isn't walking dead or GOT. This is my fun show with friends who work together on quests and even if they die can be called to angrily chime in to do an awesome musical number from the underworld. I don't like that the writers tried to make this show something that it's not or doesn't need to be (at least for me).

Can't believe I'm still bothered by this.  It really wouldn't bother me as much if Jason wanted to leave and they had to write his death in...fine..but no they just decided to go this way after a pretty disjointed season and seriously...the monster and his sister that was supposed to be 10 times scarier than him just ended up being underwhelming. What did she even do? Talked really slowly, killed some librarians, stole a scroll and got snarky with Alice. To have Q die for THIS storyline? It would have had more impact to die for the quest for goodness sake. 

[Pixel]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:05 PM, SnoGirl said:

They got me good with it and it crushes me even more that Q never knows what Eliot’s biggest regret is.

But I think he does know. He watched them all throw meaningful things into the fire. Eliot threw in a peach. Quentin would have known that peach (or “a” peach) from the conversation where Eliot turned him down. 

[Pixel]

21 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Interesting idea. I wonder why nothing happened when Everett cast to break the mirror and disable the seam.

He didn’t cast a spell. He threw something and broke the frame, which broke the mirror. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, now that I've read some interviews with the show runners about how this happened, and the whole thing is starting to sound kind of douchy, not just to fans, but to the cast and crew themselves. It really sounds like Ralph didnt really want to leave, the writers just decided to kill him off and he didnt cause a fuss (understandable, actors dont want to burn bridges or get a rep for being difficult) and he was under a gag order to not tell anyone, so he couldn't even celebrate his last days at work, say goodbye to his co-workers, have a goodbye party, etc. and they even shot a fake scene so the cast would think that Q was only mostly dead and not all dead so that they couldn't spoil anything, meaning that whole the cast was giving interviews and Tweeting and such about Qs awesome story, they had no clue he was actually going to die. To me, that comes across as people thinking of themselves as really cool and smart, but really are just dicking with their employees, and then leaving them out to dry. Especially poor Hale, who seemed to be really excited about the prospect of a Q/E relationship in the future, and was hyping fans up about in on social media, all the while the writers knew they had no interest in making that actually happen, and he had to take it all back in Twitter, clearly disappointed and blindsided. Its not "brave", its just annoying and uncaring towards your own fans and employees. 

I think I've moved on from sadness into anger. Honestly, I think I would be alright with this (or at least I could become alright with it eventually) if the show runners hadn't done all of this to brag endlessly about how "progressive" they are for "showing that even the white male lead wasnt safe, and he isnt the only hero anymore" while patting themselves on the back for how woke they are so hard that their writers are probably broken and soaking up all those accolades they got at the start of the season when it looked like they were going full throttle with Q/E, only to be like "never mind, no homo guys!" and sticking Quentin with Alice again, then killing him off before he could even say a word to Elliot. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too, getting tons of fans hopes up and getting tons of free publicity, but without actually having to commit to writing this queer relationship. Then they smugly wrote about how "realistic" this was, that having Quentin and Elliot having any closure was "too unrealistic" to possibly write. Yeah, snarky dragons in the Hudson, a man in love with a talking sloth, talking dimension traveling bunnies, those are all totally understandable, but two guys on a date together?! Thats just fantasy, it could never happen in real life! Yeah, its just a tone that I dislike, them smugly going on about how revolutionary they are, and how fans who are upset just need to suck it up because life sucks, all the while ignoring how jerked around many fans feel, and their own freaking cast. Besides, its just soooo progressive to kill off a bisexual character just as they were conformed to be bisexual! Revolutionary story telling! I haven't seen anything that progressive since they pointlessly killed off Sara on Arrow and fans got so pissed they had to bring her back and give her her own show!

Again, this might not bother me so much if the show runners weren't so pleased with themselves for killing off a white guy, while totally not seeing the rest of the implications there. Its becoming a real pet peeve of mine, writers who brag about how inclusive they are while doing either the bare minimal of work, or no work at all, then telling fans its their own fault for wanting a narrative that makes sense and they could relate to. Its just lame.

[Pixel]

I guess I’m in the minority, but I don’t see this having anything to do with the killing off bi or gay characters. I’m bi, my daughter and best friend are gay - I’m not insensitive to the issues for LGBTQ characters on TV. But I also don’t think you should not kill a character because they fall into that group. 

I thought the whole Quentin’s death and funeral was very compelling TV. It really made me feel, and I’m kind of a cynic sometimes. But as much as I loved those scenes for the emotional impact, I do think it was an enormous mistake to kill him off. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

I don't know if knowing the Fillory books matters as much at this point in the story. But, that fiction within fiction that was based on the series of books seemed important early on. Though, I can't remember how important the books were for season 3. I want to say there's always been parts of the books that pops back up. Not just Fillory and all involving that, but, passages and curses and other stuff are known, better known through the books.

I think.

The thing is, I haven't  nor do I have  plans on reading the original Magicians books. I should not mind the  Magicians writer being open to manipulating   his works for money. uh. I mean, I should not mind that the writer is not married to his work and sees it as malleable. 

I mean why not look at hours and days and months and years? of writing as resulting in silly putty. Do what you  want, readers and TV people! I got my checks!

But, I liked the Chronicles of Narnia-esque Fillory skeleton for the Magicians story. The story within a story can be interesting to me.

So maybe the Fillory stuff doesn't matter in the show anymore. Oh wait. It somehow still does because Margo and Elliot went back there and were 300 years in the future. And that perverted writer of the books is still at large, I think. Well, despite those things, the Quinton character was the one who seemed to have that book shit memorized. Maybe there's other magicians who have the fictional books from that Fillory series memorized. Maybe a character will read or re-read the series in honor of Q. Who knows. Maybe the meta aspects of the storytelling is not leaning on other invented fictions not found in the original Magicians books series. i don't know.

I just think that this adaptation of a series of wizard books is suffering from too many cooks and is trying to write far beyond the source. I'd be fine with that if this story was based on a straight up myth. This show has only been on four seasons but many the cleverness of some of the most major choices from the past 14 episodes has been less clever than the show's writers think. So, I think it is a foregone conclusion they know how the series will end (not a surprise) and need to thread the needles and make the stitching seems like that  was the pattern they were making from way back in Episode One.

Maybe next season won't be clunky and could be as great as season 2 or 3, but, I care less. My wants from fiction nowadays is give me a good opener, make me care to read to the end, and then end it as properly and poetically as possible. So, I want to see great endings. But, I want to care to wait that long when it comes to TV-- which makes me just want to read the original Magicians books and call it a day on these characters. I might choose that ending.

[AudienceofOne]

Not to get too meta but the entire point of the Magicians and its allusions to Narnia was to critique the kind of privileged, entitled, bored-rich-kids aspect of the Great White Male Saviour Myths these kinds of children fantasies embodied and Quentin was at the centre of that for a reason. And frankly this season had none of that other than a really ham-fisted monologue from Penny where they spelt out some that theme in sky writing while not really doing any of it in the text. 

There have been a couple of really big moments in this show that were thematically on point without needing to jam it down our throats. Quentin spending all of the first season thinking he's the Great White Saviour Chosen One on a quest to save Fillory and realising he wasn't special at all. Margo and Elliot cosplaying as Fillory's King and Queen like they were in a Saturday afternoon dress-up game until they realised these were actual people with lives and they started to act like real rulers. Julia's season 1 tantrum over not getting magic because she's Julia and Julia deserves it for being Julia only to have to deal with the horrific implications of that entitlement. 

There's nothing in this season like that other than a vague "The Librarians think they have a right to police magic and they don't because Everett is corrupt" and also Penny will now explain why our critique of the white straight male protagonist issue will work fine if we get rid of him completely, even though without him there's nothing left to critique.

Nobody is going to watch this show in season 5 and think 'wow, there's no white male straight protagonist, that is so edgy". Especially since you just gave that guy the kind of heroic death that they get for being the white male hero - you know, the kind of narrative decision you're specifically supposed to be subverting? 

You know what would have been edgy? Having an entire season devoted to that guy being a nurturing carer who supports his friends in their quests instead of having his own and then having him choose to date a guy.

Edited April 21, 2019 by AudienceofOne
You never see the typos until you hit post

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, Hobo.PassingThru said:

Well, despite those things, the Quinton character was the one who seemed to have that book shit memorized. Maybe there's other magicians who have the fictional books from that Fillory series memorized.

Julia knows the books nearly as well as Quentin. That's been established since early S1, although Julia's plotlines have tended to have little to do with Fillory, so we don't hear about it much. But if for storyline reasons they need to have a character who knows the books well, they have one.

On 4/20/2019 at 5:05 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The Binder specifically said that becoming a goddess would be a long and arduous journey. Even though I think Penny23 knew that Julia didn't want to lose all of her magical abilities, she'd already done it once before and was okay. She was in a lot of pain so I think that his choice to have her become human again was not intended to make her ordinary but to heal her as quickly as possible.

What I remember the Binder saying is that either way Julia went, it was going to be arduous. So that wasn't a factor in Penny's choice. But being human doesn't automatically mean not having magic; after all, most of the other Magicians are humans. Julia tried casting spells once she got better, so she had that consideration in mind. And it turns out that indeed, being human didn't mean still losing her ability to do magic; she just needed to be feeling pain.

I do think Penny was probably at least partially motivated by the thought that a human Julia will stick around while a goddess Julia will likely spend most of her time on another plane or whatever. Goddess Julia would have been gone at the end of last season if her friends hadn't been in desperate need of her, and if resolving that crisis hadn't required giving up her godhood, she probably would have left again once the crisis was over. Most of the gods and goddesses don't seem to spend much time on the mortal plane. We had another hint of that when Enyalius told her she should come with him, before the Monster killed him. If she became a goddess again, well, she'd probably continue to return when her friends really needed her, as a literal deus ex machina, but she wouldn't be hanging around on a regular basis. Penny 23 doesn't have anything or anyone else, so he chose the option likelier to keep Julia with him.

For me, Eliot's absence this season was a bigger problem than Quentin's absence in S5 will be. The group has been through enough shit that they're connected regardless of any one individual, and I never found Quentin to be one of the more interesting characters. Sayonara, dude. I hope wherever he went on the Metro, he got what he needed.

[iMonrey]

Quote

JMO, but I think the jury's still out on which choice Penny made for Julia. We didn't see Penny's conversation with The Binder and I don't think anything that was said between Penny and Julia in the Brakebills library completely rules out the goddess possibility.

The conversation between them made it pretty clear which choice was made. If Penny actually chose Godhood and Julia mistakenly thinks he chose humanity, that would be really dickish of him not to clue her in that he chose the other option. Why would he keep that from her?

[ProudMary]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The conversation between them made it pretty clear which choice was made. If Penny actually chose Godhood and Julia mistakenly thinks he chose humanity, that would be really dickish of him not to clue her in that he chose the other option. Why would he keep that from her?

Because there are things the writers don't want the viewing audience to know yet?

[paramitch]

Y'all, huge apologies in advance for the wall of text. But I'm... I'm really upset about this episode, and the choices the writers made here. I didn't cry. I was too furious. And then I was honestly, genuinely depressed by it. It was worse than crying (although I feel your pain, @tennisgurl and @MissL!). I've been depressed about it all day, honestly, albeit in a minor "my TV show let me down" way.

To me, the throughline of this entire season, easily through episode 9 or 10, was that people and relationships can both evolve and surprise us. And that we need to forgive ourselves and redefine how we accept or forgive others. The events of S3 caused Quentin to both move on from Alice (an attachment that I once loved, but that had grown toxic), and to work on how to forgive her after a massive betrayal. Alice had to face her own choices and forgive herself. Everyone else had similar journeys of re-evaluation and self-definition, with Elliot's revelation about Quentin a high point, and (to me) a welcome and brave new step for the show.

Despite the clever, self-referential midseason finale, I never saw the "how do we sidestep the white male hero syndrome" as the core of this season's story, just the concept of the necessity for growth and change—and how having the courage to both face that and to take steps to do so were a necessary part of growing older.

And to me, the show doubled down on that. Repeatedly. And went beyond teasing us with an Eliot/Quentin relationship to showing it to us as a possibility with:

• An added epilogue to LitD where Quentin directly asks Elliot to give their relationship a real chance in real life.
• A moment of revelation for Elliot that he missed an opportunity he should have accepted -- culminating in Elliot using his few seconds of escape from the monster to reference it directly to Quentin in what was basically a declaration of love.
• At the same time, Quentin doubles down that he and Alice are over, and that he is working on forgiveness, but that there is nothing left for her and she needs to accept that.

So what the hell was going on in the final two episodes here? Why the clunky clumsy rush to reconnect Quentin and Alice like two unwilling dolls puppeteered by a determined fanfic writer going "NOW KISS!"?

I would have been totally on board for forgiveness and friendship there. But Quentin immediately falling back into Quentin/Alice 3.0 just felt artificial and forced. Because it wasn't about genuine character growth, but about prepping the stage for Quentin's big sacrifice while also reaffirming the het ship as the more important of the two (so, yes, I think it's subtle bi erasure).

To me it was cheap, overdone, and unnecessary. To echo @The Companion, I honestly felt if it couldn't be Elliot there, it should at least have been Julia. And then to echo @tennisgurl, we have the fact that Quentin and Elliot never even get a single additional scene together. Not one more conversation after all that buildup. Shit, if they wanted to tear my heart out, let ELLIOT accompany Q to that final confrontation, dammit. 

To me, Quentin's death as a plot point is cheap. It's a trite shortcut to emotion and a nasty way to cut the Gordian knot of Quentin's potential relationship with Elliot. Whether they meant to or not, to echo @kieyra, the final outcome was upsetting to me on multiple levels, and yes, it directly smacks of Clarke/Lexa and why I stopped watching The 100. (PRODUCERS: Quentin and Elliot? KIDDING! It's ALL ALICE ALL THE TIME! Always was! Meanwhile, watch us congratulate ourselves on killing off the White Male Hero while reinforcing he likes girls more as we also remove Julia's consent a whopping FOURTH TIME in a row! Because God forbid for one second poor Julia get agency over her own freaking body!)

People like @treasaigh were already eloquent this season about the fact that Alice has remained stubbornly disconnected from the other characters, and I think that was an unnecessary flaw this season that could have been so easily fixed. The irony is, Josh came on much later yet instantly assimilated and felt like part of the group. So has Julia. They just never seemed to know how to write Alice (her early rivalry with Margo was better because at least it was SOMETHING; besides, I'll always love the exchange where Alice says at least the competition is leaving, and Margo responds softly that she likes competition).

Also, the entire final confrontation was badly presented. Q has full seconds to throw that vial into the mirror.

I didn't even love the death conversation with Penny40, because he seemed so out of character to me. Not even a single gentle Taylor Swift joke? He just felt... empty. Because we haven't seen Penny grow to this. It was just a few Penny40 scenes ago that he was rolling his eyes at singing Queen.

And while Quentin's confession to Penny40 was heartbreaking, it was horrible too, and not really something I felt entirely comfortable with, because again, it felt abrupt and unearned. I know Quentin has battled depression repeatedly and I love that about him. But this season, if this was subtext, I wish we'd seen him battle it (and perhaps the trauma he was undergoing). I wish we'd seen him be reckless before, so people might be concerned about him and the chances he was taking.

And as lovely as "Take On Me" was, it was, again, so weirdly staged! Like everyone had amnesia about the characters. Julia knew Quentin her entire life. Decades. Elliot spent fifty years with him. But that entire scene was all about Alice's grief, and that pissed me off. I was so angry that Elliot tossing a peach into the fire just made me even angrier.

I know how I sound -- like a petulant shipper who didn't get what they wanted. And I am. But -- it's also more than that. I feel cheated right now. Bait-and-switched. I'm depressed and pissed. 
 

On 4/18/2019 at 4:50 AM, The Companion said:

I think what is bothering me most about the Alice thing, is that it is the most tropey. Guy dies to save his girlfriend like a big hero. It was unnecessary. We would have felt that loss regardless. Hell, we all felt that loss when we saw the group scene. If you want a traditional woman crying and screaming while being dragged away, make it Julia, his best friend from childhood. Once they had the vials, there was no reason Julia couldn't join. The mirror world doesn't allow for magic, so she is equally capable of contributing. Justify it with her wanting to throw the being who again took away her agency into the Seam. That? That would have been earned and would have made the restoration of her magic more emotional. It also could have given is a lovely scene before battle where we essentially called back to their lifelong friendship. 

This, this, this. Beautifully put.

On 4/18/2019 at 4:52 PM, iMonrey said:

What makes me bitter is that this is basically hogwash, to put it politely. They felt Quentin's story was coming to an end? Why? Translation: they didn't know what else to do with him, got tired of writing for him (as evidenced by the scant material he got this season), and wanted to do something different that would have been too tricky if Quentin was still around. The only limit to Quentin's story is the writers' imaginations. 

THIS. Producers said they had run out of storylines for Quentin? Here's one: Instead of killing him, why not put your lovely and utterly cool-with-it bisexual leading man into a romance with his gay best friend and sometime lover? Which would be a brave and groundbreaking choice?

Quentin's story wasn't over. Quentin's story was halfway fed to us this season, then they snapped the rubber band, said "Just kidding," and ended the story just when it really got interesting. What if Quentin had had to deal with depression, with neediness, openly, with his friends? In a relationship with Elliot, who's obviously battled darkness and addiction himself? I have enough faith that The Magicians could have handled this and shown us this in ways that would have been worthwhile.

But it was too busy congratulating itself on getting rid of its main character (conduit or no) because he was a white guy. The irony is, I loved Quentin because he wasn't the trope.

On 4/19/2019 at 9:05 PM, SnoGirl said:

...I feel really tricked and baited. I am really mad.

I might be on my own with this, but with this finale, I suddenly feel like this entire season was filler. Quentin was miserable all season. We see the start of possibly a fun and frankly fresh couple with Q and Eliot. Julia repeats her story-choices being made for her. Penny doesnt really grow. Kadi and Margo see some growth, but let’s be honest, they’ve both always have been badasses. Josh and Margo are a surprise. Fen is Queen of Fillory. 

They spend the entire freakin’ season apart. And don’t even get a moment at the end to be together. Ugh. And I am mad about the Eliot and Quentin tease. It’s almost emotional entrapment. They got me good with it and it crushes me even more that Q never knows what Eliot’s biggest regret is. And then they freakin have Quentin and Alice repeat?

This is me too, right now. I'm sure I'm not even coherent right now. I was so upset last night when I watched it, and I thought, "Okay, chill, give yourself time to appreciate it." And this morning I was angrier than ever. And I still am.

I mean, yes, it's TV, but I am devastated in that "I feel really betrayed by a TV show I have adored for seasons now" way. If that makes sense. I can't remember the last time I was this angry and upset over a TV show. And @tennisgurl I'm so with you on the producers sounding smug and douchey in their interviews on this -- and on how utterly unfair the producers' handling of the finale was with both Jason Ralph (who, regardless of my feelings here, was as always INCREDIBLE as Quentin this season and this finale), as well as with poor Hale Appleman especially, and the rest of the cast.

On 4/21/2019 at 3:02 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Nobody is going to watch this show in season 5 and think 'wow, there's no white male straight protagonist, that is so edgy". Especially since you just gave that guy the kind of heroic death that they get for being the white male hero - you know, the kind of narrative decision you're specifically supposed to be subverting? 

You know what would have been edgy? Having an entire season devoted to that guy being a nurturing carer who supports his friends in their quests instead of having his own and then having him choose to date a guy.

Thank you, thank you thank you. Brilliant points.

Sigh. Thanks for bearing with me. Those of you who loved the finale, disregard me. Those who join me in my feelings, I'll be at the bar. Finally weeping.

Edited April 23, 2019 by paramitch
missing words because I'm too angry to type, shit I had another typo

[The Companion]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Y'all, huge apologies in advance for the wall of text. But I'm... I'm really upset about this episode, and the choices the writers made here. I didn't cry. I was too furious. And then I was honestly, genuinely depressed by it. It was worse than crying (although I feel your pain, @tennisgurl and @MissL!). I've been depressed about it all day, honestly, albeit in a minor "my TV show let me down" way.

To me, the throughline of this entire season, easily through episode 9 or 10, was that people and relationships can both evolve and surprise us. And that we need to forgive ourselves and redefine how we accept or forgive others. The events of S3 caused Quentin to both move on from Alice (an attachment that I once loved, but that had grown toxic), and to work on how to forgive her after a massive betrayal. Alice had to face her own choices and forgive herself. Everyone else had similar journeys of re-evaluation and self-definition, with Elliot's revelation about Quentin a high point, and (to me) a welcome and brave new step for the show.

Despite the clever, self-referential midseason finale, I never saw the "how do we sidestep the white male hero syndrome" as the core of this season's story, just the concept of the necessity for growth and change—and how having the courage to both face that and to take steps to do so were a necessary part of growing older.

And to me, the show doubled down on that. Repeatedly. And went beyond teasing us with an Eliot/Quentin relationship to showing it to us as a possibility with:

• An added epilogue to LitD where Quentin directly asks Elliot to give their relationship a real chance in real life.
• A moment of revelation for Elliot that he missed an opportunity he should have accepted -- culminating in Elliot using his few seconds of escape from the monster to reference it directly to Quentin in what was basically a declaration of love.
• At the same time, Quentin doubles down that he and Alice are over, and that he is working on forgiveness, but that there is nothing left for her and she needs to accept that.

So what the hell was going on in the final two episodes here? Why the clunky clumsy rush to reconnect Quentin and Alice like two unwilling dolls puppeteered by a determined fanfic writer going "NOW KISS!"?

I would have been totally on board for forgiveness and friendship there. But Quentin immediately falling back into Quentin/Alice 3.0 just felt artificial and forced. Because it wasn't about genuine character growth, but about prepping the stage for Quentin's big sacrifice while also reaffirming the het ship as the more important of the two (so, yes, I think it's subtle bi erasure).

To me it was cheap, overdone, and unnecessary. To echo @The Companion, I honestly felt if it couldn't be Elliot there, it should at least have been Julia. And then to echo @tennisgurl, we have the fact that Quentin and Elliot never even get a single additional scene together. Not one more conversation after all that buildup. Shit, if they wanted to tear my heart out, let ELLIOT accompany Q to that final confrontation, dammit. 

To me, Quentin's death as a plot point is cheap. It's a trite shortcut to emotion and a nasty way to cut the Gordian knot of Quentin's potential relationship with Elliot. Whether they meant to or not, to echo @kieyra, the final outcome was upsetting to me on multiple levels, and yes, it directly smacks of Clarke/Lexa and why I stopped watching The 100. (PRODUCERS: Quentin and Elliot? KIDDING! It's ALL ALICE ALL THE TIME! Always was! Meanwhile, watch us congratulate ourselves on killing off the White Male Hero while reinforcing he likes girls more as we also remove Julia's consent a whopping FOURTH TIME in a row! Because God forbid for one second poor Julia get agency over her own freaking body!)

People like @treasaigh were already eloquent this season about the fact that Alice has remained stubbornly disconnected from the other characters, and I think that was an unnecessary flaw this season that could have been so easily fixed. The irony is, Josh came on much later yet instantly assimilated and felt like part of the group. So has Julia. They just never seemed to know how to write Alice (her early rivalry with Margo was better because at least it was SOMETHING; besides, I'll always love the exchange where Alice says at least the competition is leaving, and Margo responds softly that she likes competition).

Also, the entire final confrontation was badly presented. Q has full seconds to throw that vial into the mirror.

I didn't even love the death conversation with Penny40, because he seemed so out of character to me. Not even a single gentle Taylor Swift joke? He just felt... empty. Because we haven't seen Penny grow to this. It was just a few Penny40 scenes ago that he was rolling his eyes at singing Queen.

And while Quentin's confession to Penny40 was heartbreaking, it was horrible too, and not really something I felt entirely comfortable with, because again, it felt abrupt and unearned. I know Quentin has battled depression repeatedly and I love that about him. But this season, if this was subtext, I wish we'd seen him battle it (and perhaps the trauma he was undergoing). I wish we'd seen him be reckless before, so people might be concerned about him and the chances he was taking.

And as lovely as "Take On Me" was, it was, again, so weirdly staged! Like everyone had amnesia about the characters. Julia knew Quentin her entire life. Decades. Elliot spent fifty years with him. But that entire scene was all about Alice's grief, and that pissed me off. I was so angry that Elliot tossing a peach into the fire just made me even angrier.

I know how I sound -- like a petulant shipper who didn't get what they wanted. And I am. But -- it's also more than that. I feel cheated right now. Bait-and-switched. I'm depressed and pissed. 
 

This, this, this. Beautifully put.

THIS. Producers said they had run out of storylines for Quentin? Here's one: Instead of killing him, why not put your lovely and utterly cool-with-it bisexual leading man into a romance with his gay best friend and sometime lover? Which would be a brave and groundbreaking choice?

Quentin's story wasn't over. Quentin's story was halfway fed to us this season, then they snapped the rubber band, said "Just kidding," and ended the story just when it really got interesting. What if Quentin had had to deal with depression, with neediness, openly, with his friends? In a relationship with Elliot, who's obviously battled darkness and addiction himself? I have enough faith that The Magicians could have handled this and shown us this in ways that would have been worthwhile.

But it was too busy congratulating itself on getting rid of its main character (conduit or no) because he was a white guy. The irony is, I loved Quentin because he wasn't the trope.

This is me too, right now. I'm sure I'm not even coherent right now. I was so upset last night when I watched it, and I thought, "Okay, chill, give yourself time to appreciate it." And this morning I was angrier than ever. And I still am.

I mean, yes, it's TV, but I am devastated in that "I feel really betrayed by a TV show I have adored for seasons now" way. If that makes sense. I can't remember the last time I was this angry and upset over a TV show. And @tennisgurl I'm so with you on the producers sounding smug and douchey in their interviews on this -- and on how utterly unfair the producers' handling of the finale was with both Jason Ralph (who, regardless of my feelings here, was as always INCREDIBLE as Quentin this season and this finale), as well as with poor Hale Appleman especially, and the rest of the cast.

Thank you, thank you thank you. Brilliant points.

Sigh. Thanks for bearing with me. Those of you who loved the finale, disregard me. Those who join me in my feelings, I'll be at the bar. Finally weeping.

All of these things. I normally trust this show but this decision is baffling and infuriating. Even though the sendoff was beautiful, it is problematic. 

Yesterday, when I saw your post I wanted to tell you DON'T DO IT. STOP WATCHING NOW. 

[paramitch]

13 minutes ago, The Companion said:

All of these things. I normally trust this show but this decision is baffling and infuriating. Even though the sendoff was beautiful, it is problematic. 

Yesterday, when I saw your post I wanted to tell you DON'T DO IT. STOP WATCHING NOW. 

Thank you! And what a kind and generous response -- I so appreciate it. I've been in a funk over this, and you just cheered me up simply because you wanted to keep me from watching the depressingness we know as S413. Which I realize comes off weird. Just go with it. You're awesome. And thank you. 

Meanwhile, I hope to return from RAGEFLAMES MODE soon and will again be a kinder poster. 🙂

[MissL]

4 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Thank you! And what a kind and generous response -- I so appreciate it. I've been in a funk over this, and you just cheered me up simply because you wanted to keep me from watching the depressingness we know as S413. Which I realize comes off weird. Just go with it. You're awesome. And thank you. 

Meanwhile, I hope to return from RAGEFLAMES MODE soon and will again be a kinder poster. 🙂

Oh shoot. I just realized you were the poster that was so excited in escape from the happy place thread. I also wanted to jump in  and stop you from continuing (probably a lot of us did) and it was heartbreaking to see how thrilled you were knowing what was coming. But we don't "spoil" on here. 

I feel like the Q/Eliot shippers often feel like they have to justify being angry as not just a shipper thing but if it adds any validation I wasn't a shipper for those two (I wasn't against it I just wasn't invested although I absolutely love both characters) and still hated how this went down.  I think I've said it before but I don't really ship anyone on the show which is so odd for me. I just want to see all the friends together saving the day and screwing up but then trying to fix it with fish magic and cake. 

[The Companion]

28 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Thank you! And what a kind and generous response -- I so appreciate it. I've been in a funk over this, and you just cheered me up simply because you wanted to keep me from watching the depressingness we know as S413. Which I realize comes off weird. Just go with it. You're awesome. And thank you. 

Meanwhile, I hope to return from RAGEFLAMES MODE soon and will again be a kinder poster. 🙂

This one has hit me hard too. I was thinking about going back to watch A Life in the Day and got too sad about watching Quentin. It is both a testament to the writers who have written characters we care deeply about and anger inducing towards them because the decision is so frustrating.  

[festivus]

31 minutes ago, MissL said:

Oh shoot. I just realized you were the poster that was so excited in escape from the happy place thread. I also wanted to jump in  and stop you from continuing (probably a lot of us did) and it was heartbreaking to see how thrilled you were knowing what was coming. But we don't "spoil" on here. 

Yeah, I felt the same way. I knew what was coming and I felt bad for you @paramitch. You were so excited. 😥

I've got my wrap-up thoughts and I'll post them in separate post. Then I try to prepare myself for the next big heartbreaks coming my way; Endgame and Game of Thrones.

[MissL]

31 minutes ago, festivus said:

I've got my wrap-up thoughts and I'll post them in separate post. Then I try to prepare myself for the next big heartbreaks coming my way; Endgame and Game of Thrones.

Dude. I know. It's going to be a ROUGH weekend. 

[festivus]

From a storytelling perspective I still think it was a mistake to kill Quentin but if they do the emotional stories right next year I'll be satisfied. You have Alice who did have growth, change and a start to accepting the different sides of herself, get Quentin back and then lose him. You had Eliot, who was trapped in a monster and never got the chance to tell Q his biggest regret. You have Julia who definitely saw that Quentin was on the edge, she's seen that before, and maybe she'll feel that she didn't do enough. I'd like to see something from Margo too. She's more stoic than the rest but we've seen she feels things deeply and Quentin was her friend too. 

As far as Q & A, I think his death could have had just as much of an impact on her if they didn't get back together but they did and I don't have a problem with that. They had both accepted some truths about themselves and Quentin loves her. I could see why he decided he wanted to try again with her but I do think he knew the end for him was coming. Even if it was subconsciously, he knew it. Since he's bi/fluid then his relationship with her is just as important as a possible one with Eliot. I think it would have been real interesting to see what they could have done with this story when Q found out how Eliot really felt about him. They didn't go this storytelling route but I'm not going to write off the show yet unless I don't see the emotional weight that Q's death should have on the people that love him next season. I'm not a shipper but I do like a well told story and I feel like Q, El and Alice could have been an interesting one. Of course it probably would have caused endless shipper wars which I hate. I'm not against shipping, I just hate the wars which inevitably take over forums like none of the rest of the stories if they aren't romantic, matter. I'm not saying that would happen here, but I've seen it too many times.

I do think the writers patting themselves on the back for thinking they are so edgy for killing off the white male protagonist is a bunch of horse hockey. Quentin was never just that. It's not that simple.

I do still think this season was a mess on the whole and the only arc that had any resonance was Alice's. Eliot and Julia were sidelined. Penny 23 only seemed to exist to moon over Julia and call Marina out for looking up her girlfriend in this timeline when he was doing the exact same thing. Oh and to zap people where they needed to go of course. Kady's story mostly seemed like a set-up for next season. They better have a really kick-ass story then for her with the hedge witches. For some reason I love Pete so I hope he stays involved. We did learn more about Margo and what makes her tick so at least that was one plus from this season. It felt a bit rushed to me though. Like I said before they really dropped the ball on the monsters plot. The writing for last season was so tight and it just seemed jerky and disappointing this season. Maybe I'll feel differently when I watch the season as a whole but I doubt it. It just seemed at once too stuffed and yet had plots that felt empty and went nowhere.

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, I hope to return from RAGEFLAMES MODE soon and will again be a kinder poster. 🙂

Oh god, watching your progression was so sad. I swear I wanted to warn you to stop watching and just live in the happy place, like many of us poor unfortunate souls here! You had the same feelings I did, so happy and excited, only for it all to be torn down, while the show runners pat themselves on the back for how awesome and brilliant they are. Which...yeah not impressed. Like, oh my God, they killed a main character! Yeah, this is a post GoT world, this isnt exactly a huge game changing moment for all of television. What might be a game changing moment? Having your seemingly straight white guy hero battle depression, and fall in love with his male best friend and have a happy romance together. But, I guess we dont get that because...two dudes going on an actual date isnt realistic, yo. 

Really the more I think about it, the less sense it makes from a story telling perspective. This was a pretty Quentin lite season in general, especially if the writers knew it was going to be his last. What was his arc? Well, he wanted to save Elliot, and that was his goal for most of the season. He did technically accomplish that, but without any real closure. His death was more about Alice, a relationship that was sort of just thrown in at the last minute at the end of the season that never really made sense to me, and finally died to stop the bad guy, a bad guy who basically just showed up near the end of the show, without much personality or exploration of his motives. For his last season, I would have expected him to have had more time to deal with his depression, or his complicated relationships with his loved ones, especially Elliot and Alice, and if he had to die, at least give him some happiness, and not just an empty dark room and a metro ticket. Maybe have him reunite with his dad, or his Filiorian wife from the Mosaic timeline, anything to make it seem less depressing and pointless. Its not "realistic" or "bold" to not give Q any closure for any of his arc for the season or his goals, or even just as a character, its just lazy writing more interesting in being shocking than telling a good story.

Also, not to read too much into things, but I cant help but notice that a lot of the cast has, while being very professional and respectful in their interviews and social media post finale, many of them have been liking a LOT of salty fan tweets complaining about Qs death, and the way it was handled. Just something interesting I noticed, almost, like they didnt like being totally blindsided and lied to by their boss or something...

[The Companion]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh god, watching your progression was so sad. I swear I wanted to warn you to stop watching and just live in the happy place, like many of us poor unfortunate souls here! You had the same feelings I did, so happy and excited, only for it all to be torn down, while the show runners pat themselves on the back for how awesome and brilliant they are. Which...yeah not impressed. Like, oh my God, they killed a main character! Yeah, this is a post GoT world, this isnt exactly a huge game changing moment for all of television. What might be a game changing moment? Having your seemingly straight white guy hero battle depression, and fall in love with his male best friend and have a happy romance together. But, I guess we dont get that because...two dudes going on an actual date isnt realistic, yo. 

Really the more I think about it, the less sense it makes from a story telling perspective. This was a pretty Quentin lite season in general, especially if the writers knew it was going to be his last. What was his arc? Well, he wanted to save Elliot, and that was his goal for most of the season. He did technically accomplish that, but without any real closure. His death was more about Alice, a relationship that was sort of just thrown in at the last minute at the end of the season that never really made sense to me, and finally died to stop the bad guy, a bad guy who basically just showed up near the end of the show, without much personality or exploration of his motives. For his last season, I would have expected him to have had more time to deal with his depression, or his complicated relationships with his loved ones, especially Elliot and Alice, and if he had to die, at least give him some happiness, and not just an empty dark room and a metro ticket. Maybe have him reunite with his dad, or his Filiorian wife from the Mosaic timeline, anything to make it seem less depressing and pointless. Its not "realistic" or "bold" to not give Q any closure for any of his arc for the season or his goals, or even just as a character, its just lazy writing more interesting in being shocking than telling a good story.

Also, not to read too much into things, but I cant help but notice that a lot of the cast has, while being very professional and respectful in their interviews and social media post finale, many of them have been liking a LOT of salty fan tweets complaining about Qs death, and the way it was handled. Just something interesting I noticed, almost, like they didnt like being totally blindsided and lied to by their boss or something...

I sort of love that we were all sitting here coming from the future and watching in horror. A bit of solidarity for us all? Totally agree with your point about giving him something at the end. His father would have made a lot of sense, as we had to see him mourning his father this season. 

[generate789]

I really appreciate all of y'alls thoughtful posts. I did not want Q to die, both because I really like him as a character (SO much better than BookQ) and because I was riveted by his relationship with Eliot. I'm a cis straight person and a grown ass woman and when he and E kisssed in ALITD, I gasped and clapped like my teenage self did when watching Joey and Pacey.  I also completely agree with what a bunch of you said upthread: killing a protagonist just because he is male and white is not, in and of itself, progressive storytelling, especially considering that Q was not an aggro-bro-dude, but a sensitive, thoughtful, damaged, queer, three-dimensional character.  But yes, as others have also said, despite all of this, Jason Ralph acted the HELL out of that episode. I am going to miss his presence in S5. I'll still watch it, because I just don't quit TV shows, even when I really, really should. (::cough::watchedall8seasonsofthevampirediaries::cough:::)

[festivus]

37 minutes ago, generate789 said:

But yes, as others have also said, despite all of this, Jason Ralph acted the HELL out of that episode. I am going to miss his presence in S5. I'll still watch it, because I just don't quit TV shows, even when I really, really should. (::cough::watchedall8seasonsofthevampirediaries::cough:::)

He was wonderful.

I hear your cough and I cough the same. I honestly don't know what I was thinking. 😑

[layofluthien]

I think that this episode has destroyed the show for me. What Quentin did was suicide.  He has shown zero regard for his well-being and has been spiraling all season. To quote Wikipedia “Altruistic suicide is sacrifice of one's life to save or benefit others, for the good of the group, or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society. It is always intentional.” 

The writers are trying to now claim that it was a heroic sacrifice and not suicide. But John McNamera said in an interview that he wanted Q’s death to be ambiguously suicide. And an eagle eyed viewer has pointed out that during the bonfire scene the King of Heart, also know as the Suicide King, is designed to look like Quentin. 

I don’t think I can rewatch the show knowing that the depressed bi super nerd, who tried so hard and cared so much, kills himself. It’s too depressing.

I can’t even get started on Hale. His interviews from 4x05 are heartbreaking now. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by layofluthien

[Sauvage]

SNIFF.   Incredible to think that at first i watched this show as a trashy guilty pleasure.  No expectation of investment....

[jaigurudeva]

Why did they kill off Quentin?! Do they really think they're going to get "woke points" for killing off the "White Male Protagonist" even though Quentin was so far removed from the cishet, macho dudebro the trope entails, he and Eliot were one of the most developed, wholesome, and healthy romantic relationships in the series, and were the only same-sex main-character romantic relationship? (Not including one-episode one-offs and side-character flings.)

The show will seriously not be the same without Q, and I don't know if I want to keep watching after this. I'm at a loss for words with how upset I am with the direction they took to kill Q off like that, @treasaigh @tennisgurl @kieyra @paramitch and many others have said so much of what I'm feeling better than I could hope to say, but if I quoted everything I agreed with we'd be here all day, so I'll write some other stuff to take my mind off it. 

They stretched the "Monster Eliot" plot so far, I pulled a muscle watching this season, and it was ultimately kind of anticlimactic: sneaking up to the Monsters Eliot and Julia and shanking them with the axes, then bottling the omnipotent god-beasts in bottles like naughty genies. And did they have to shove the ax blades as deep as they could into their back and guts? Seems a little overkill if the ax was already enchanted, but I guess they needed that extra hospital drama.

That was some really ham-fisted hint-dropping of Quentin's magical talent for mending. Like if foreshadowing were a total solar eclipse.

The Q and Alice "reunion" was completely out of left field, and out of character for both of them after all that's happened. Newsflash: You don't need to be romantically involved with someone to be shocked and horrified by their death. It still would have been gut-wrenching for Alice to see Q die like that even if they weren't romantically involved, but I agree that it should have been Julia or Eliot there if they really were going to go down that route. BUT ALSO QUENTIN SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED!!! 

Why do they keep stripping Julia of her agency like this? Why couldn't Julia make that choice herself? Also, why the heck did Penny23 decide on human? If you're fighting omnipotent god-beasts, having a goddess on your side might be a good idea when you're short on ambient magic. As a goddess, Julia would have been able to bypass the Library magic cap and done the bottle-sealing spells herself. Really, just another example in which the writing suffers while the producers bend over backwards to get to that "cool scene" of all the magicians casting simultaneously. The hard-reset of stripping Julia of her goddesshood and making her 100% human again was probably done because the writers weren't sure what to do with a goddess Julia and are too lazy to do some brainstorming.

Speaking of which, where is the Old Gods' righteous fury over all that god death this season? Even if they didn't care about "Bacchus," "Iris," "Aengus," and, um, another one somewhere in there, because they were all originally Librarians and perhaps not "real gods," Monster Julia snapped Persephone's neck and the Old Gods didn't seem to notice or care?

Honestly, the writing is pretty terrible throughout. I might stick it out for the other characters, but I don't have high hopes after this.

[treasaigh]

Here's what I want to know.  Now that the dust has settled a bit, is the story from the producers/storytellers/actors changed?  Are they seeing or feeling any backlash?  I don't read too many interviews so I don't know.

I don't expect them to resurrect Quentin next season, but maybe... I don't know... something???

That being said I'd totally take a Quentin fighting his way back story.  I don't want a repeat of the ripping Buffy out of heaven storyline. But a Quentin deciding he isn't done?  I'd take that.

[Delphi]

That was rough.   And by rough I mean a week later and I'm not over it.   I've had a pretty bad year thus far and this show was kind of like my escape from that and then the finale happens.   It just gutted me to my core. 

I don't know what the writers have planned,  but I don't care.   I put trust in them that I don't usually put in tv writers and they broke that trust.   I'm not going to be tuning in next season. 

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, treasaigh said:

Here's what I want to know.  Now that the dust has settled a bit, is the story from the producers/storytellers/actors changed?  Are they seeing or feeling any backlash?  I don't read too many interviews so I don't know.

 I don't expect them to resurrect Quentin next season, but maybe... I don't know... something???

That being said I'd totally take a Quentin fighting his way back story.  I don't want a repeat of the ripping Buffy out of heaven storyline. But a Quentin deciding he isn't done?  I'd take that.

My feeling from the actors is that they are also upset and sad, but there is a limit to what they can say in public.  As for the producers, to my knowledge, they haven't said anything public that indicates that they think that they made a mistake, though it surely must be clear to them by now that they did. 

I'm not sure that resurrecting Quentin at this point will get them off the hook and I'm not sure that I'd welcome it.  Maybe by the time next season starts I'll have worked through this, but I doubt it. 

[The Companion]

10 hours ago, jaigurudeva said:

Why do they keep stripping Julia of her agency like this? Why couldn't Julia make that choice herself? Also, why the heck did Penny23 decide on human? If you're fighting omnipotent god-beasts, having a goddess on your side might be a good idea when you're short on ambient magic. As a goddess, Julia would have been able to bypass the Library magic cap and done the bottle-sealing spells herself. Really, just another example in which the writing suffers while the producers bend over backwards to get to that "cool scene" of all the magicians casting simultaneously. The hard-reset of stripping Julia of her goddesshood and making her 100% human again was probably done because the writers weren't sure what to do with a goddess Julia and are too lazy to do some brainstorming.

I can't buy that she forgave him so quickly. He made a decision based on his own selfish motives (so he didn't lose her). He didn't even bother to justify it with: "we have seen being a god corrupts" or "I didn't think you would be okay with outliving all your friends." He explained he didn't want to lose her as if she was other Julia. I don't buy that Julia is a-ok with that. 

6 minutes ago, toolazy said:

My feeling from the actors is that they are also upset and sad, but there is a limit to what they can say in public.  As for the producers, to my knowledge, they haven't said anything public that indicates that they think that they made a mistake, though it surely must be clear to them by now that they did. 

I'm not sure that resurrecting Quentin at this point will get them off the hook and I'm not sure that I'd welcome it.  Maybe by the time next season starts I'll have worked through this, but I doubt it. 

I would be okay if it made sense, and I still think they may start writing and realize they have a good strong way to justify it. The show has brought people back multiple times. It wouldn't be unheard of. But they better do it well if they walk this back. 

[JTMacc99]

27 minutes ago, toolazy said:

they haven't said anything public that indicates that they think that they made a mistake, though it surely must be clear to them by now that they did. 

I would put down a significant wager that they don't think they made any mistake at all.

I was just reading an article about the show (I will post it in the media thread), and in it the author pulled the entire speech that Quentin gave to the plant:

Quote

You know the worst part of getting exactly what you want? When it’s not good enough. Then what do you do? If this can’t make me happy, then what would? Fillory was supposed to mean something. I was supposed to mean something here. But it’s random, it’s so random that the only way to save my friends is to yell at a f-cking plant. Honestly, fuck Fillory for being so disappointing. Y’know maybe I was better off believing that it was fiction. The idea of Fillory is what saved my life. This promise that people like me, people like me can somehow find an escape. There has got to be some power in that. Shouldn’t loving the idea of Fillory be enough?

And it occurred to me that I could replace the word Fillory with The Magicians and be pretty close to describing how some of us feel right now. In particular, "Honestly, fuck [The Magicians] for being so disappointing."

Do I think that Sera Gamble and John McNamara regret stirring up emotions that echo the ones they wrote for Quentin, as negative and difficult as they are?  Probably not. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

One thing which I'm trying to figure out is if the multiple timelines was just a really bad idea or not. Obviously, it opens up the 'X Character is dead but... we can rebuild them' scenario.

Also, making those four gods to be also librarians seems silly. I couldn't see Bacchus as in charge of anything, really. I did some digging to figure out what myths talk of dismembering a god or a creature and found one. It was one version of the  Bacchus myth. so, at 'the time, I thought: maybe having the Monster Elliot seek out the body parts will sort of make sense having precedence. But, nah. I gave up after they made the multiple stones body parts of the Monster's sister.

Back to the multiple timelines playing a role here: it was good when the Magicians were getting clues to figure out their next moves-- like with Alice's version helping them. But, once they had Evil Quintin as the Beast and introduced Penny 23, negating Penny's death, it went the wrong direction, in my opinion. So, to have all of that lead up to this season and to have the conclusion to the season lead to another death which might not be undoable makes the lead up so much less tight, to me.

It's like dropping the revelation that Quintin's specialty is fixing small things. Really? Once they revealed that it was obvious it would come back in play. Though, I thought they covered each character's specialty in the first season.

The clever bits and innovations the writers laid out and which came to fruition in this episode just don't hold water, like a drained magical lake. How is it Alice and Quintin couldn't suck up more of that water but Everett could suck it all up and waste it by not really using it?  A lot of WTFs.

[generate789]

1 hour ago, Hobo.PassingThru said:

The clever bits and innovations the writers laid out and which came to fruition in this episode just don't hold water, like a drained magical lake. How is it Alice and Quintin couldn't suck up more of that water but Everett could suck it all up and waste it by not really using it?  A lot of WTFs.

Yes. But also: it's exactly this sort of thing that I would have been all "IDK IT HAPPENED BECAUSE REASONS, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, BRAIN" if the ending hadn't been what the ending was. 

[kieyra]

9 hours ago, Delphi said:

That was rough.   And by rough I mean a week later and I'm not over it.   I've had a pretty bad year thus far and this show was kind of like my escape from that and then the finale happens.   It just gutted me to my core. 

I don't know what the writers have planned,  but I don't care.   I put trust in them that I don't usually put in tv writers and they broke that trust.   I'm not going to be tuning in next season. 

I’m sorry, I definitely feel this.

I was a new viewer, I think I posted about a month ago about bingeing and being totally lost. But somewhere in there I did fall in love with the show, and I was looking forward to a lot of rewatches and picking up all the stuff I’d missed with my short attention span. It was going to be a world to live in for a while. It just feels like ashes now.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

3 hours ago, generate789 said:

Yes. But also: it's exactly this sort of thing that I would have been all "IDK IT HAPPENED BECAUSE REASONS, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, BRAIN" if the ending hadn't been what the ending was. 

Well, as I wrote earlier, season three's finale didn't work for me either. Just the deep effort the group made to find out where the castle was and how to get there combined with needing to find seven keys and also find out none of them were going to be used to unlock the main door. And then they are foiled by one of the group (not the most wrong thing-- Alice was not cooperating well since the niffen (sp?) thing) However, when the library/ Fogg contingent just popped up AND when newly minted goddess Julia spent all her power to remake the keys AND they still lost out after the quest....

ugh. True, the peacock man who sent them on the quest told Elliot that quests can end messed up. And it still felt like I could see the writers making their choices to meet that desired ending.

This season ended similarly with the "writer's fingerprints" showing as another poster wrote.

I could turn my brain off and say whatever happens happens. But, those two jars were hot potatoes and they took their time tossing in the second one. So, suddenly super powerful Everett showed up to toss a knife screwing it all up in the lamest way[*}, not too far removed from Alice waiting until they were in that castle to screw up the keys. She could have hidden stolen or destroyed one key and that would have pushed the brakes on those Brakesbillians!

I don't mind Anti-happily ever afters. But knowing it is just a cliffhanger to another season long arc is too discouraging. I don't care what happens next. And part of me feels like i could map out the most likely variations given the past two seasons.

[* edit: If they had disposed of both jars into the seam and Everett unleashed some of that lake-full of magic on Quintin, Penny-23 and Alice, I would have accepted that. In part because it would make sense that next season's big bad would be God Everett and the other magicians would have all the reason in the world to avenge (haha) their friends and figure out how to do so short-handed. I wouldn't have "liked" that development but it seems more proper (?) than God Everett powering up only to never use that tonnage of juice he swallowed.]

Edited April 24, 2019 by Hobo.PassingThru
an after thought. those things just happen, ya know.

[rwlevin]

11 hours ago, treasaigh said:

Here's what I want to know.  Now that the dust has settled a bit, is the story from the producers/storytellers/actors changed?  Are they seeing or feeling any backlash?  I don't read too many interviews so I don't know.

Interestingly enough, Lev Grossman tweeted that he'd been getting a lot of angry tweets and said he was only a consultant and it wasn't his choice to kill Quentin. He completely ignored the part where he said it was a good idea when the writers asked him what he thought about it.

[toolazy]

1 minute ago, rwlevin said:

 Interestingly enough, Lev Grossman tweeted that he'd been getting a lot of angry tweets and said he was only a consultant and it wasn't his choice to kill Quentin. He completely ignored the part where he said it was a good idea when the writers asked him what he thought about it.

To be honest, it was the producers who described that phone call (or meeting or whatever.) It's quite possible that Grossman wasn't as enthusiastic about it as has been reported but can't really say so in public. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, toolazy said:

To be honest, it was the producers who described that phone call (or meeting or whatever.) It's quite possible that Grossman wasn't as enthusiastic about it as has been reported but can't really say so in public. 

The same way they claim it was a mutual decision with Jason Ralph. But really, if your bosses come to you saying they think your story is done and they want to kill your character off, its not unreasonable to assume the actor isn't going to beg to stay where they aren't wanted.

[Poltargyst]

I agree with the poster who said the monster plot ending was anticlimactic.  We had to go all season without Eliot, we deserved some closure when he returned, scenes of Eliot talking with other characters about what happened and how he and they felt about it.  And we didn't get that because Q's death overshadowed it completely, so the climax of the season is just hanging out there meaninglessly while we deal with Q's death.  The monster storyline feels rather empty.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Poltargyst
Nonya business

[kat165]

It's been over a week and I'm still angry and sad.