S02.E06: Donar the Great

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Shadow and Mr. Wednesday seek out Dvalin to repair the Gungnir spear.

Airing Sunday, April 14, 2019. Please note, the program may be made available early that day on streaming platforms by Starz, and it is allowed to talk about it in topic. Entering the topic may spoil you. Thank you!

 

 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Last week when Wednesday mentioned what he learned from burlesque, I definitely wasn't expecting to actually see him running a burlesque show. I loved the costumes, the dancing, and the variety acts like the fire eater and the tumblers. I didn't like the camera work though. Look, I get it. She's stripping. There's no need to zoom in on her ass and her crotch repeatedly.

I wasn't as interested in the mall story, but I cracked up when the dwarves said that repairing the staff would require a powerful rune like Lou Reed's jacket.

Still hate Crispin Glover whispering.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Boring episode, IMO. They could've done the Donar story in a 5 minute flashback. 53 minutes where really nothing happened. 

[nodorothyparker]

That was ... self-indulgent.  

It honestly wasn't a horrendous episode on its own, but with only two episodes left in a season where it doesn't really seem like the story has advanced much at all amid a whole lot of navel gazing and scenery chewing to make up for the mess going on behind the camera, it falls flat.  It's been so long since I read the book I honestly can't remember if Thor is namechecked there, but I was sharing in Shadow's incredulousness that Thor doesn't exist in any form in a world where he's one of the few bona fide pop culture characters who should be doing just fine.  But I guess if you're not going to include him in a universe where lots of far more obscure gods and various creatures are still hanging on, you do need some explanation for lifting him out entirely. 

I too could have done without the tediously predictable camera work at the burlesque show.  The show itself was fun to look at, but if you're going to do it be more creative about it than going for the obvious T&A shots.  The dwarves hanging out at a dying mall, which not so long ago also would have been an object of near worship in this country, were a hoot as was their elevation of Lou Reed's jacket to a "powerful rune."  It was mildly interesting to see a less obnoxious Tech Boy with pre-WWII technology unable to appreciate how quickly what he was holding up would become obsolete.  Does Crispin Glover even have any other setting?

Any episode lacking Laura and Mad Sweeney feels, well, lacking.

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I honestly can't remember if Thor is ever even namechecked there, but I was sharing in Shadow's incredulousness that Thor doesn't exist in any form in a world where he's one of the few bona fide pop culture characters who should be doing just fine.  But I guess if you're not going to include him in a universe where lots of far more obscure gods and various creatures are still hanging on, you do need some explanation for lifting him out entirely. 

I don't recall Thor being mentioned in the book either so yeah, it's kind of cool the the show-runners cooked up an explanation for why he's not around in the present-day story-line.  But I don't know if it required that a whole episode be devoted to it.  And to what end?  All we learned is how Odin's spear was broken and that's not something that I recall mattering at all in the book.  So . . . why?

I hated the scam over the Lou Reed jacket.  Where did the other two "cops" come from?  Are we supposed to assume they a mall cops who just let Shadow walk off with the criminal AND the evidence?  Wouldn't mall cops just LIVE for the excitement of being involved in something like that?  That didn't ring true.

Also, dying malls are sad.

Edited April 15, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Mr. Sparkle]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I hated the scam over the Lou Reed jacket.  Where did the other two "cops" come from?  Are we supposed to assume they a mall cops who just let Shadow walk off with the criminal AND the evidence?  Wouldn't mall cops just LIVE for the excitement of being involved in something like that?  That didn't ring true.

And being totally nitpickey, since they both work in the dying mall, wouldn't the guy from the store see the other guy wearing the Lou Reed jacket? Oddly, that's the first thing I thought of. 

[hnygrl]

What was that? 2 episodes left and you waste time like that? This was a throw-away episode, completely unnecessary and if you skip it? You miss nothing. story-wise this was a waste of time, and the first time I've ever actually almost fallen asleep on a show.

I learned that Donar is the Germanic incarnation of Thor. Huh. Knew the name Donar, but had no CLUE where it came from. Thor wasn't hot. Or cute. And he was such a Panty. Why would "Manifest Destiney" believe anything Odin said? Are you DUMB? Seeing Technical boy getting his start as TELEPHONE boy was interesting but I could've done without it.

I'll say it once.

I. HATE. NEW. MEDIA!!!!!! WHAT THE F*** PEOPLE????

Anybody speak Japanese/Korean? Whichever language that was? What'd she say???

Oh and Mr. World. His...PAUSING...between...WORDS...and...EMPHASIZING...every...OTHER...word...?

Kill me now. And the smile. No. Enough.

This season is not impressing me at all. I get that it's just one long setup for the stuff that's happening in season 3 but damn...liven it up a little.

Edited April 15, 2019 by hnygrl

[JayBird23]

I did  not watch tonight.  I have given up on this season.  It's trash.  I have hope for next season and loved season 1.  How this show got renewed I'll never know. 

[terrymct]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't recall Thor being mentioned in the book either so yeah, it's kind of cool the the show-runners cooked up an explanation for why he's not around in the present-day story-line.  But I don't know if it required that a whole episode be devoted to it.  And to what end?  All we learned is how Odin's spear was broken and that's not something that I recall mattering at all in the book.  So . . . why?

I hated the scam over the Lou Reed jacket.  Where did the other two "cops" come from?  Are we supposed to assume they a mall cops who just let Shadow walk off with the criminal AND the evidence?  Wouldn't mall cops just LIVE for the excitement of being involved in something like that?  That didn't ring true.

Also, dying malls are sad.

My first thought was that the dwarves had better not wear that jacket around the mall since there are only about six people there now and it'll be noticed.  

I don't recall Thor from the book, either

I've been trying to make sense of the American Nazi thing.  Wednesday is willing to play ball with anyone if it will result in him or those he's associated with being worshiped.  Worshiping means power and longevity.   Ok.   Columbia objects to the Nazis because she's the embodiment of one form of American national pride, but she's being displaced by another symbol of US national pride as embodied by the Statue of Liberty, aka Libertas.   Wednesday broke up Columbia and Thor because she was gaining influence over/with him, is that right?

They could have cut the song and dance by 3/4 in this episode.   I'd have enjoyed more time with the dwarves.

[terrymct]

9 hours ago, hnygrl said:

Oh and Mr. World. His...PAUSING...between...WORDS...and...EMPHASIZING...every...OTHER...word...?

Kill me now. And the smile. No. Enough.

I keep waiting for his affectations to make some kind of sense.  At first, I wondered if his exaggerated hand movements were supposed to correlate with actions he was causing to happen.  I'm still not clear on that.  The funky voice and emphasis is weird, as you say, as is the hunching over or serious head tilting.   He's supposed to be the embodiment of a global world or globalization?  Something like that?  How do the voice and body things support that?  A shadowy behind the scenes character like from the conspiracy theories that control the world without anyone realizing it?  Illuminati, Bildberger group, Rothchilds, etc?   But if you're a shadowy behind the scenes thing, no one is worshiping you, are they?

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, hnygrl said:

Oh and Mr. World. His...PAUSING...between...WORDS...and...EMPHASIZING...every...OTHER...word...?

Kill me now. 

Crispin. Glover. Apparently. Graduated. The. William. Shatner. School. Of. Acting.

With.

Honors.

[mrspidey]

14 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I learned that Donar is the Germanic incarnation of Thor. Huh. Knew the name Donar, but had no CLUE where it came from.

It's why the german word for thunder is "Donner". Also, we call Thursday "Donnerstag" (Donar's day)..

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, terrymct said:

I've been trying to make sense of the American Nazi thing.  Wednesday is willing to play ball with anyone if it will result in him or those he's associated with being worshiped.  Worshiping means power and longevity.   Ok.

Wednesday and his whole pantheon were worshipped in Germany, so it's pretty natural for him to be in good with Germans. (Also, if this was set before the war I don't think most people would have had the sort of distaste for the Nazis that pretty much everyone had post-WWII.)

[hnygrl]

Remember, Odin is a God of War. So death, destruction, bloodshed, etc.? That's his wheelhouse, so it makes sense he would be in good w/the nazis. Anything to cause bloodshed and death.

[rab01]

It still doesn't make sense that Thor would have to throw the competition (or that Odin would want him to) because he gets more worship for winning.  So what if some human Nazis want you to lose? 

His burlesque shenanigans are also further reason why his treatment of Vulcan and Bilquis taking the New Gods' deal is pure hypocrisy because we see him here making deals with them right-and-left.  Are we supposed to discern that Odin learned his lesson from how badly he fucked up in this episode's flashback? 

Odin seems to be enough of a creep that I'm beginning to root for Laura and Mad Eye to team up with Mr. World and take him out. 

[peridot]

I hated that Manifest Destiny and Thor were broken up by such a simple lie.  Odin is a master liar, and she couldn't simply go outside and check to see if Thor was there?

Odin really is a scumbag.  He doesn't even know if the Valkyries welcomed Thor home.

Anansi can get tiring after a while, why was he yelling at everyone when he found a shoe by the stairs?  No one was expecting him to clean up after them.

I don't like the new Media, she doesn't have any gravitas and seems ridiculous.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I wish this episode had gone “Donar” party and ate itself. I award zero points. What a stinker.

[ombre]

I don't get all the hate for this ep (unless it's residual from ep 4 in which case By All Means Carry On). I see it as doing several big things :

1. Developing Wednesday's relationship with Shadow by comparing it to his relationship with Thor. What's the same? What's different? What has Wednesday learned from that disaster? (puppet master breaking his toys) 

2. Getting Shadow a little more confident as a con. He was pretty crap at it in the gas station. Needs practice. 

3. Most interestingly, it's showing something we haven't seen before - how this whole thing got started. Once upon a time, old gods vs new gods wasn't a problem. Again, what's changed? 

I don't know if the suicide thing will be important later on but it sure feels like the gun in the drawer in act 1. And even so... Why does Thor kill himself? He's pretty much served as captain America for the war, right? (my memory is that he kills himself after it, but I could be misremembering)  is he pissed at having been played by his own dad? (yet again, one must assume) is he pissed at having missed out on Columbia's... huge... tracts of... Manifest destiny? 

For people saying they don't get his throwing the fight, the nazis wanted Thor to lose to prove their own superiority. Thor didn't want to. Wednesday wanted him to because Wednesday just cares about getting a big darned war going. Because he's a God of war. 

And I think the long rant about the shoe was to show that anansi was working the show even though we don't (iirc) see him onstage. 

Speaking of which... I've seen comments about how people don't like his switching into African accents. Man, I *love* this part of him. I've spent the past three weeks reading thousands and thousands of pages on the history of Haiti (revolution, relationship with African American communities, the legacies of African cultures, the fear Haiti struck in the hearts of white US residents, etc). Every time he starts getting all slippery in his accents, my mind is seeing both those revolutionaries pulling on the tactics and strategies they'd brought with them from africa... And those white US slave owners quaking in their booties at the thought of the powder keg they were living off of. 

[mjc570]

I totally identified with Mr Nancy’s shoe rant, although I hope I use more moderate language.  Otherwise, waste of time with only 2 episodes left.  Missed dead wife and unlucky leprechaun.   

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, ombre said:

Most interestingly, it's showing something we haven't seen before - how this whole thing got started. Once upon a time, old gods vs new gods wasn't a problem. Again, what's changed? 

The power balance.  The telephone is significant in this (pre-WWII) setting because historically it represents the very first individual (read: worshipper) access to a wide-ranging technology-based network - the infrastructure the New Gods needed to build the critical mass of worshippers necessary for their successful manifestation in the physical realm.

With the introduction of the telephone into the mainstream, the NGs can now manifest - but relatively speaking they’re still probably pretty weak, as the early telephone network was several orders of magnitude less complex than the internet-based computer network from which they draw their strength in current times.  And negotiating from a position of weakness generally makes one a helluva lot more polite, to say the least.  🙂

[ombre]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

The power balance.  The telephone is significant in this (pre-WWII) setting because historically it represents the very first individual (read: worshipper) access to a wide-ranging technology-based network - the infrastructure the New Gods needed to build the critical mass of worshippers necessary for their successful manifestation in the physical realm.

With the introduction of the telephone into the mainstream, the NGs can now manifest - but relatively speaking they’re still probably pretty weak, as the early telephone network was several orders of magnitude less complex than the internet-based computer network from which they draw their strength in current times.  And negotiating from a position of weakness generally makes one a helluva lot more polite, to say the least.  🙂

I'll admit that I meant this as a rhetorical question. While we have all these real world answers, I suspect that within the show, Gaiman has a very different set of answers - such as blaming the new gods for taking his son from him, unable to admit that his own meddling did that. 

But since we are talking underestimated forces... I found the nazis to be a particularly good analogy there. 

[terrymct]

On 4/15/2019 at 5:05 PM, peridot said:

I don't like the new Media, she doesn't have any gravitas and seems ridiculous.

In reality, new media IS rather ridiculous.   Instagram influencers.   Falling off cliffs taking selfies to share on Snapchat.  Posting photos of disabled kids or pets on Facebook with language saying that you bet he/she won't get even one share.   Live feed videos of crimes or misbehavior that people watch and like.  It ranges from harmless fluffy fun (cat videos) to a vehicle for sad or sick people to make contact (alt right etc).

 

I thought the idea of Columbia (Manifest Destiny) being replaced by Liberty (the Roman goddess, then layered with "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free") was a really neat insight into how the Country was changing over time.  Columbia was the patriotic ideal for a lot of people until we'd pretty much European-ized from sea to shining sea (plus some lovely islands and Alaska).  The idea of Manifest Destiny drifted into the history textbooks and Libertas has the high ground all to herself.

 

16 hours ago, ombre said:

I suspect that within the show, Gaiman has a very different set of answers - such as blaming the new gods for taking his son from him, unable to admit that his own meddling did that. 

Do you mean Wednesday here or Gaiman with regard to his son?

[Haleth]

I kind of liked this back story. 

I was thinking that Manifest Destiny as an overt concept began dying with the Spanish American War.  Since then it has been a more covert policy, fueled by and hidden by technology.  It makes sense that she would be tempted by the manifestation of tech, even though it was Wednesday's manipulation that caused her to accept the offer.  And of course Wednesday would want her influence and worship of her to continue to provoke wars.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Haleth

[ombre]

36 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Do you mean Wednesday here or Gaiman with regard to his son?

Oh! Wednesday's son! Totally Wednesday's son! 

15 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I kind of liked this back story. 

I was thinking that Manifest Destiny as an overt concept began dying with the Spanish American War.  Since then it has been a more covert policy, fueled by and hidden by technology.  It makes sense that she would be tempted by the manifestation of tech, even though it was Wednesday's manipulation that caused her to accept the offer.  And of course Wednesday would want her influence and worship of her to continue to provoke wars.

There's a really excellent book that just came out (How to Hide an Empire by Daniel Immerwehr) that talks about exactly this transition, from endless expansion to Enh, we'll just keep a few strategic points. He traces it to the transition from needing constant access to certain resources (guano, rubber, etc) to finding ways to manufacture those materials artificially. And thus not needing to extend citizenship to majority non-white territories. 

The timeline for Columbia to be rolling with Wednesday's dog and pony show is a little funky for me too. A couple months ago I was doing research on music in the civil war, which lead to reading a *lot* about the different songs competing for status as national anthem. There were two Columbia songs in the mix - Columbia the Gem of the Ocean and Hail, Columbia. I'm pretty sure both were still quite popular through ww2. And having her get swayed by the tech boy is perfect - but by my count should have happened in the 1880s,with the founding of Columbia Records, or the 1920s, with the founding of Columbia Pictures. 

[Normades]

On 4/15/2019 at 8:06 AM, terrymct said:

I don't recall Thor from the book, either

I read the book not too long ago and I do seem to recall Thor being mentioned as having committed suicide.  If I'm remembering correctly, they didn't go into details, just that he did for some reason.  No mention of Columbia.  

BTW - Did anyone think that Columbia was putting on a very similar accent to Columbia in Rocky Horror or is that just my crazy RH Fangirl coming out???

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

I read the book not too long ago and I do seem to recall Thor being mentioned as having committed suicide.  If I'm remembering correctly, they didn't go into details, just that he did for some reason.  No mention of Columbia.  

BTW - Did anyone think that Columbia was putting on a very similar accent to Columbia in Rocky Horror or is that just my crazy RH Fangirl coming out???

I'm trying to put the book from my mind because comparing it to the TV show was making me crazy.  They are two different animals now.  

Yes, I got a wee bit of a Rocky Horror vibe too.  I wonder if they both were referencing an earlier performer?

[Lemur]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:39 PM, WatchrTina said:

I don't recall Thor being mentioned in the book either so yeah, it's kind of cool the the show-runners cooked up an explanation for why he's not around in the present-day story-line.  But I don't know if it required that a whole episode be devoted to it.  And to what end?  All we learned is how Odin's spear was broken and that's not something that I recall mattering at all in the book.  So . . . why?

I hated the scam over the Lou Reed jacket.  Where did the other two "cops" come from?  Are we supposed to assume they a mall cops who just let Shadow walk off with the criminal AND the evidence?  Wouldn't mall cops just LIVE for the excitement of being involved in something like that?  That didn't ring true.

Also, dying malls are sad.

There is a brief, brief mention in the book that Thor killed himself in 1942.  That's it.  

On 4/14/2019 at 10:18 PM, hnygrl said:

What was that? 2 episodes left and you waste time like that? This was a throw-away episode, completely unnecessary and if you skip it? You miss nothing. story-wise this was a waste of time, and the first time I've ever actually almost fallen asleep on a show.

The Bishop Game didn't seem accidental. 

On 4/15/2019 at 12:27 PM, mrspidey said:

It's why the german word for thunder is "Donner". Also, we call Thursday "Donnerstag" (Donar's day)..

Donnerstag = Thor's Day = Thursday. 

19 hours ago, peridot said:

I hated that Manifest Destiny and Thor were broken up by such a simple lie.  Odin is a master liar, and she couldn't simply go outside and check to see if Thor was there?

Odin really is a scumbag.  He doesn't even know if the Valkyries welcomed Thor home.

Anansi can get tiring after a while, why was he yelling at everyone when he found a shoe by the stairs?  No one was expecting him to clean up after them.

I don't like the new Media, she doesn't have any gravitas and seems ridiculous.

1. Thor, in almost every incarnation, be it actual translations, comic books, movies, Thor is D-U-M dumb (see what I did there?).  So, this wouldn't be out of character. 

2. Agreed, Odin is a scumbag.  

3. Shoes on stairs can kill people. 

14 hours ago, mjc570 said:

I totally identified with Mr Nancy’s shoe rant, although I hope I use more moderate language.  Otherwise, waste of time with only 2 episodes left.  Missed dead wife and unlucky leprechaun.   

The shoe rant is everything.  My sister and I applauded it as my mother tends to leave her shoes all over the living room of my tiny, tiny bungalow and someone is always tripping over them. 

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, Normades said:

BTW - Did anyone think that Columbia was putting on a very similar accent to Columbia in Rocky Horror or is that just my crazy RH Fangirl coming out???

I can’t get to a TV right now to hear-check last night’s Columbia, but quite likely; the Mid-Atlantic accent affected by RHPS Columbia was considered fashionable through the American ‘30s-‘40s, which covers the AG Columbia’s portion of the episode.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nashville
right, not tight - fucking autocorrect

[rab01]

1 hour ago, Lemur said:

1. Thor, in almost every incarnation, be it actual translations, comic books, movies, Thor is D-U-M dumb (see what I did there?).  So, this wouldn't be out of character. 

Also, Thor accused Odin of using magic on Columbia to make her fall for it.  Odin denied it but he lies as easily as breathing.  I think Odin bewitched both of them.

Given what we've seen so far, why would any human support Odin's side in this war? And why should any god support it (except for death and war gods that is)?  

Also, how is Odin important enough in America to have any influence or power?

[Lemur]

16 minutes ago, rab01 said:

Given what we've seen so far, why would any human support Odin's side in this war? And why should any god support it (except for death and war gods that is)?  

Also, how is Odin important enough in America to have any influence or power?

Humans?  They don't even know it's coming.  Except Shadow.

Gods?  Mainly because he's promising them glory or calling in owed debts.

And is he really important?  Isn't that the point?

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, ombre said:

I'll admit that I meant this as a rhetorical question.

Yeah, but I took it and ran with it. 🙂   

Back in the mid-60s Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story titled “Dial F for Frankenstein” which posited with the completion of the world’s first global telephone network (forecast a decade into the future), mankind had finally created the first artificial network which matched or exceeded the human brain in terms of complexity and interconnections - and considering the possibilities should that network develop an independent consciousness.  I read it in the 70s, and that story always stuck with me.

Looking back now, I find it more than a little amusing that the entire basis for AG’s physical manifestation of the New Gods - and the Skynet mythos of the Terminator series, for that matter - are based in notions first advanced by a sci-fi writer back when LBJ was President. 😉 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nashville
Fucking autocorrect

[DarkRaichu]

This episode feels most like Neil Gaiman to me.  Going back between past and future without seemingly coherent plot only to reveal a tragedy at the end.  Nicely done with a backdrop of pre-WW2 US.  

Now we know who broke the spear.  I thought the spear was broken during last war between gods? Was that just a fib Odin told the others ?

We also saw previous incarnation of Tech Boy (thanks to the creation of telephone / Ma Bell)  So that means last week is not the last we see of him.  He is just going to evolve into a more advanced version

Found a loophole on how to kill a god.  So does that mean Thor / Donar will never come back even though more and more people know him from the Avengers movies ???

So much sadness in the last few scenes. Ian McShane is a master on humanizing this coniving and manipulating little so called allfather...

 

7 hours ago, Lemur said:

1. Thor, in almost every incarnation, be it actual translations, comic books, movies, Thor is D-U-M dumb (see what I did there?).  So, this wouldn't be out of character.

Thor when potrayed well should be more of a naive straight shooter than dumb guy.

As Thor committed suicide, on his wall you can see a poster of "We can do it" woman from WW2 (I cant remember the actual name right now).  I think that was Columbia

[tennisgurl]

I admit, as much as I want the plot to get moving, I did think that was one of this seasons better outings, as low a bar as that may be. It actually felt like something Neil Gaiman might write as a short story, and had some actually cool ideas and an interesting pre war US setting that they used really well. 

Columbia as a character was an interesting concept, being the "Columbia" as an original concept of what American was supposed to become, manifest destiny and all that. And her becoming Rosie the Riveter during WWII is actually a really good idea, and fits really well into this shows mythology about belief and how they change gods and vice versa over time. I wonder if she still exists now, and what form she is? Is she pissed at Odin? Did she ever find out what really happened with Donar? 

Also fun seeing an older variation of technology boy, back when he was the god of pre WWII technology, all cocky about his old timie phones and fedoras. I never thought that the Tech Boy that we met was the original Tech God, and it was interesting seeing this version of him. I assume this guy faded away, just like Wednesday said he would, before he materialized in the church at the tech guys dads funeral we saw. 

Poor Donar, if he had just held out a few more decades, he could have lived off the MCU for the rest of his eternal life! 

If anyone is interested, The Friends of New Germany, the American Nazis we met here, really were a thing in pre war America, basically an American facist/Nazi party spin off of Nazism in Germany, with some ties to the main party abroad. 

[Bruinsfan]

There's some dispute about who exactly was the model for that Westinghouse painting (I think Naomi Parker has been identified as the most likely candidate), but it resembles Laura Bell Bundy in this episode enough that its inclusion in the set dressing probably wasn't an accident.

It wasn't really an iconic or well-known image back in the day like Norman Rockwell's Rosie the Riveter painting/Saturday Evening Post cover was, though. I don't think it made a splash in pop culture until its rediscovery and use as an icon for feminism in the 80s. Heck, I'm not sure how Donar got his hands on one in 1942 unless Columbia sent it out of spite.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Bruinsfan

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if [Columbia] still exists now, and what form she is?

She got a gig as the logo for a movie/TV studio so she gets eyeballs regularly, if not worship.

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

So does that mean Thor / Donar will never come back even though more and more people know him from the Avengers movies ???

If Thor was still around I bet he’d be thriving on the MCU driven worship. Since he’s dead I think the MCU power probably just gets folded in with Media or Movies or another New God’s worshippers. 

[tennisgurl]

I wonder if there’s a god of fandom? They go to comic con every year to recharge their strength! 

[ombre]

19 hours ago, Lemur said:

The Bishop Game didn't seem accidental. 

You know what? I think this is part of why some people are having a hard time with this show. It's like a really good baseball player - if you've done your work beforehand, you don't need to scramble to catch the ball because you're already in the right place and can just pluck it out if the air. Gaiman is doing the ultimate "show don't tell" - telling seemingly unrelated short stories to lay the groundwork for the larger story.

Of course, in a story about a conman who works by distraction and flattery and pretty trinkets, it means that there's this larger meta thing going on - gaiman's telling a story in which shadow is the protagonist... But his own toolbox is Wednesday's toolbox. 

17 hours ago, rab01 said:

Also, Thor accused Odin of using magic on Columbia to make her fall for it.  Odin denied it but he lies as easily as breathing.  I think Odin bewitched both of them.

I think this is the ultimate root of Wednesday's power. People blame his bewitching them, but he rarely does use magic to do so. (not getting enough worship to be able to spare any juice!) He just uses people's own hopes and fears. And they say he magicked them because that's easier than facing the hopes and fears. 

17 hours ago, Nashville said:

Yeah, but I took it and ran with it. 🙂   

Back in the mid-60s Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story titled “Dial F for Frankenstein” which posited with the completion of the world’s first global telephone network (forecast a decade into the future), mankind had finally created the first artificial network which matched or exceeded the human brain in terms of complexity and interconnections - and considering the possibilities should that network develop an independent consciousness.  I read it in the 70s, and that story always stuck with me.

Looking back now, I find it more than a little amusing that the entire basis for AG’s physical manifestation of the New Gods - and the Skynet mythos of the Terminator series, for that matter - are based in notions first advanced by a sci-fi writer back when LBJ was President. 😉 

I mean... All the earlier scifi I know was working off stuff that's now just everyday tech! Someone I was listening to was talking about the transition of ideas from tech to objects - that when things just reliably *work* they stop being tech (eyeglasses. Paper. You name it) tech boy seems to live at wherever the edge of reliable is. 

Further thoughts on ep. It's been a looong time since I read the book, and I'm treating this as somewhat open-ended since things have already changed. But I can't help but be intrigued by the suicide thing. So much of this story is told by the breadcrumbs that Wednesday intentionally leaves.  But shadow got that detail by turning the tables on him. Did Wednesday not want that bit out? Or was it a reward for shadow growing some backbone? Or was it merely a piece in setting up a longer con? Obviously we don't know yet, but I'm enjoying the fact that there are questions to ponder in all the layers. 

[DarkRaichu]

13 hours ago, ombre said:

Further thoughts on ep. It's been a looong time since I read the book, and I'm treating this as somewhat open-ended since things have already changed. But I can't help but be intrigued by the suicide thing. So much of this story is told by the breadcrumbs that Wednesday intentionally leaves.  But shadow got that detail by turning the tables on him. Did Wednesday not want that bit out? Or was it a reward for shadow growing some backbone? Or was it merely a piece in setting up a longer con? Obviously we don't know yet, but I'm enjoying the fact that there are questions to ponder in all the layers. 

Did Donar really commit suicide? Or did Wednesday con Shadow (and us viewers) to think suicide is a way to permanently kill a god?

To me, the angle of that shotgun that killed Donar looked weird for a suicide. 

 

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if there’s a god of fandom? They go to comic con every year to recharge their strength! 

Only every year?  There are so many kinds of cons in many parts of US that would make that god more powerful than Odin 😄

[terrymct]

3 hours ago, ombre said:

You know what? I think this is part of why some people are having a hard time with this show. It's like a really good baseball player - if you've done your work beforehand, you don't need to scramble to catch the ball because you're already in the right place and can just pluck it out if the air. Gaiman is doing the ultimate "show don't tell" - telling seemingly unrelated short stories to lay the groundwork for the larger story.

Of course, in a story about a conman who works by distraction and flattery and pretty trinkets, it means that there's this larger meta thing going on - gaiman's telling a story in which shadow is the protagonist... But his own toolbox is Wednesday's toolbox. 

I think this is the ultimate root of Wednesday's power. People blame his bewitching them, but he rarely does use magic to do so. (not getting enough worship to be able to spare any juice!) He just uses people's own hopes and fears. And they say he magicked them because that's easier than facing the hopes and fears. 

For me, the show is fun when it airs but it gets better once I've had a chance to sit and think about it.  There are so many references to mythology, history, and pop culture that everything doesn't really come together in my head when I'm watching it fresh.  A second viewing helps.

Agree completely about Wednesday.  He's a manipulator writ large and small.

I think one of the reasons I don't like Dead Wife much (other than as a foil for Mad Sweeney) is that she's the most two dimensional character on the show...even more so than the one off characters who just appear and are gone.  This digging into her motivation is supposed to be giving her breadth, but I really just don't care about her.  It's not just that she's a piece of c#$p as a person...which she is, but she'd surely not alone in THAT...it's that she's not much more than a whiny vessel for Sweeney's coin and drive to find Shadow for some reason.   Shadow started out really two dimensional, but this whole wacky journey is in part about bringing him to be what he's supposed to be.

[hnygrl]

I just realized something. Literally just now.

I like TV Shadow BETTER than Book Shadow!!!

That's like only the second time in my life (Crazy Rich Asians is the other) that I like the movie/television character BETTER than the book Character. TV Shadow asks questions, gets angry at being used and thought stupid while book Shadow just...goes with the flow. Does as he's told. Never questions anything. It's the one thing that annoys me most about him. He's not dumb or anything like that just...complacent seems to be the best word.

Huh...How 'bout that?

I still like BOOK Laura better than DeadWife though. She had depth and was 100% HONEST with Shadow about why she cheated/who he was. She did love him too while DeadWife doesn't even love HERSELF.

Edited April 17, 2019 by hnygrl

[ombre]

7 hours ago, terrymct said:

For me, the show is fun when it airs but it gets better once I've had a chance to sit and think about it.  There are so many references to mythology, history, and pop culture that everything doesn't really come together in my head when I'm watching it fresh.  A second viewing helps.

Agree completely about Wednesday.  He's a manipulator writ large and small.

I think one of the reasons I don't like Dead Wife much (other than as a foil for Mad Sweeney) is that she's the most two dimensional character on the show...even more so than the one off characters who just appear and are gone.  This digging into her motivation is supposed to be giving her breadth, but I really just don't care about her.  It's not just that she's a piece of c#$p as a person...which she is, but she'd surely not alone in THAT...it's that she's not much more than a whiny vessel for Sweeney's coin and drive to find Shadow for some reason.   Shadow started out really two dimensional, but this whole wacky journey is in part about bringing him to be what he's supposed to be.

5 hours ago, hnygrl said:

I just realized something. Literally just now.

I like TV Shadow BETTER than Book Shadow!!!

That's like only the second time in my life (Crazy Rich Asians is the other) that I like the movie/television character BETTER than the book Character. TV Shadow asks questions, gets angry at being used and thought stupid while book Shadow just...goes with the flow. Does as he's told. Never questions anything. It's the one thing that annoys me most about him. He's not dumb or anything like that just...complacent seems to be the best word.

Huh...How 'bout that?

I still like BOOK Laura better than DeadWife though. She had depth and was 100% HONEST with Shadow about why she cheated/who he was. She did love him too while DeadWife doesn't even love HERSELF.

These are fascinating to me.  I think part of what I'm so enjoying about DeadWife is watching her slowly realize that, no, she doesn't quite know what she's doing back or what the goal is.  I found her rather two-dimensional in the book.  This gradual piecing together (so to speak) that she's doing here feels utterly, well... human.  I love her scenes with Sweeney, but I also really enjoy the meat of her scenes with Wednesday.  He's a con.  She sees that he's a con.  But he's also got some truths about her that she doesn't really know and that she needs.  Frankly, everyone she's interacting with for any stretch of time seems to want to use her (Wednesday; Sweeney, as far as she knows) or get away from her (Shadow).  What a disorienting situation in which to have to try to figure out why on earth you've done the miraculous and what comes next!

[hnygrl]

Interesting take on DeadWife. You make a lot of sense and I see where you're coming from.

Still don't like her though...I'm wondering what they're planning to do with her. Make her fully human again or let her go? I guess it all depends on how long the viewing public likes her huh?

[ombre]

20 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

I'm wondering what they're planning to do with her. Make her fully human again or let her go? I guess it all depends on how long the viewing public likes her huh?

That may be other other reason why I like her.  Just watching a televised version of the book?  I mean... okay.  It's a good book, after all!  But seeing how they've gone through and found places where the story could grow?  And ways to keep even those who've read the book in a state of uncertainty?  Fun!  A lot harder to do with the main characters, but the peripheral ones?  Grow, baby, grow!  The sense of wanting to know what happens next with her, with Salim, with Sweeney is a very sweet agony!

I've been thinking a lot about medieval music this past week.*  While the music was initially a mnemonic aid for remembering long religious texts, eventually people started inserting long runs of notes (composing!  music!) just because they sounded cool.  But then it was hard to remember those notes, so people write words to help remember these wordless melodies.  Inserting and inserting and inserting layer upon layer.  It feels like that's what's going on with the show.  And I love it.

* Notre Dame was the first place where Europeans thought to compose music with harmony, not just everyone singing the same note.  I've often wondered about whether the architecture influenced that - Did the immense space's reverberation (emphasizing different overtones of any note sung in there) or long echo give people the idea of polyphonic writing?  I sang some of that very early Notre Dame organum there on tour with a choir many years ago, and was filled with wonder and awe at singing that music in that space, and I can't help wondering how that will change going forward.

[Kite]

Was Donar's dialogue, especially in the last scene with Mr Wednesday, MEANT to be so cheesy and over-the-top? Mr Wednesday was pretty cheesy in that scene too. "NOOOO-OOO-OOOOO!!!!!!!"

Yes, that coat is gonna get recognised straight away unless there's some kind of cloaking device, I guess once Gungnir got all glowy I thought that must be the case right? But I didn't like that the show made me do this mental work to explain it.

I enjoyed the burlesque show.

I didn't really get Donar's motivations regarding the Nazi competition.

I assume Mr Wednesday was down with using the Nazis because they were simply a means to an end. I don't think he really knew or cared what they were or would become.

That said, the use of Germanic mythology (for patriotic homeland purposes) had an intrinsic role to play in the rise of Nazi Germany - it's a very interesting history to read about. I don't think it's why Mr Wednesday is down with them here though.

Yes, Thor is getting a lot of MCU worship these days, but honestly, there's a lot of actual worship of the Germanic pantheon these days. Heathenism is a recognised religion in the US military now, one can be buried according to the rituals. There are a lot of decent heathens, but it's chilling how much of it is driven by white supremacy, particularly in Europe but all across the West. Wotan / Odin worship is particularly strong amongst that lot (and if they don't worship they still use the symbolism as a code, just as the Nazis did in their initial rise to power). Gaiman is on the money with how dark Odin is as a figure. His was essentially a death-cult. Sacrifice, war, glorious death with hundreds of virgins awaiting etc.

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Kite said:

Was Donar's dialogue, especially in the last scene with Mr Wednesday, MEANT to be so cheesy and over-the-top? Mr Wednesday was pretty cheesy in that scene too. "NOOOO-OOO-OOOOO!!!!!!!"

Yes, that coat is gonna get recognised straight away unless there's some kind of cloaking device, I guess once Gungnir got all glowy I thought that must be the case right? But I didn't like that the show made me do this mental work to explain it.

I enjoyed the burlesque show.

I didn't really get Donar's motivations regarding the Nazi competition.

I assume Mr Wednesday was down with using the Nazis because they were simply a means to an end. I don't think he really knew or cared what they were or would become.

That said, the use of Germanic mythology (for patriotic homeland purposes) had an intrinsic role to play in the rise of Nazi Germany - it's a very interesting history to read about. I don't think it's why Mr Wednesday is down with them here though.

Yes, Thor is getting a lot of MCU worship these days, but honestly, there's a lot of actual worship of the Germanic pantheon these days. Heathenism is a recognised religion in the US military now, one can be buried according to the rituals. There are a lot of decent heathens, but it's chilling how much of it is driven by white supremacy, particularly in Europe but all across the West. Wotan / Odin worship is particularly strong amongst that lot (and if they don't worship they still use the symbolism as a code, just as the Nazis did in their initial rise to power). Gaiman is on the money with how dark Odin is as a figure. His was essentially a death-cult. Sacrifice, war, glorious death with hundreds of virgins awaiting etc.

This could be a fascinating thing to explore. Odin's biggest following is among Neo-Nazis yet it is greatly implied that Shadow Moon, who might or might not be his son, is a person of color.

[Bruinsfan]

That makes it sound like it's Shadow's skin color that's in doubt rather than his parentage.

[ombre]

If there's one thing this country has historically not lacked for, white supremacist men who sleep with black women has to be pretty high up on the list. 

But I think that the larger point about Wednesday is that he's an opportunist when it comes to worship. 

Spoiler

As I think on it, though... My memory is that throughout the book he gets his praise in part by sleeping his way through a *loooong* line of blondes who might conceivably be of a lineage to have worshipped him. What *did* bring him together with Shadow's mom? 

[DarkRaichu]

It just donned on me why Mr. Nancy hated unclaimed shoes so much.  He is the god of spiders and spiders hate being killed by shoes 

[Lemur]

It took me a week to figure out what the big deal about Columbia going West was ... and it hit me when I was watching one of the first Avengers (featuring Thor), which was distributed by Paramount, a Columbia Pictures company that uses, to this day, Columbia as their figurehead image.