S02.E17: Breakdown

[rmontro]

So it sounds like any legal issues are strictly linked to disability then.

Interesting that Shaun has more protections than a normal person would, if that normal person wasn't very good at communicating.

[mookster]

I thought Freddie Highmore and Schiffman were great, but these writers are giving me agita!

If Shaun was fired, wouldn't he have been escorted from the building? Especially after that kind of outburst? The scene in the locker room and his walking out into the rain alone didn't make sense. (Although I loved Claire being there for him, not asking questions, and just sitting with him.)

Lim's "friend" was full of crap. I get how distraught she was, but her crazy martyred "I'M NEVER TIRED" shtick was off the charts. I waited years to adopt my child and let me tell you, she kicked my ass when she arrived! I was plenty tired, but gee I guess that means I didn't really love her. And that crap about Lim "not knowing love" because she's not a parent was ridiculous and insulting to every non-parent. We've seen what a caring and patient doctor Lim is, so she was just being mean and lashing out. Friends can talk to each other frankly, but she was just being sanctimoniously hurtful. I was a little annoyed that Lim felt compelled by it to fess up to Andrews, but at least they won't be sneaking around anymore.

Glassman IS a narcissist. His gift to his doctor was all about him - and I get that being "cured" allows for some self-reflection, but come on. That said, he acted the hell out of every scene he was in, but I just can't stand the hamhandedness.

Lea was...pointless. Why is she here? But every time I see their apartment, I'm jealous. 

So the writers decided to turn Reznick back into a bitch, okay. Exhausting.

And while I loved the scene between Claire and Park at the food truck, I couldn't help thinking if this thing stays on a few years, they'll throw them into bed together. Does this world really need another Grey's Anatomy? 

[TurtlePower]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

So it sounds like any legal issues are strictly linked to disability then.

Interesting that Shaun has more protections than a normal person would, if that normal person wasn't very good at communicating.

I’m actually surprised none of the characters brought up discrimination. The last few episodes I’m like, ok, when is someone going to say something? This is a BIG DEAL. It’s too bad someone didn’t advise Shaun he was being openly discriminated against so he could have used that tactic when he went to Han. 

I wonder where the show is going with this. This blatant discrimination should have been noticed and addressed by now. In the real world, it likely would have. 

[Toaster Strudel]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:19 PM, rhys said:

Too bad Shaun can't be half time surgery & half pathology.

That would make for great TV.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, mookster said:

Glassman IS a narcissist. His gift to his doctor was all about him - and I get that being "cured" allows for some self-reflection, but come on.

Maybe Dr. Glassman will save the day by barging into Dr. Han's office and demand he reinstate Shaun as a surgeon by blackmailing him!  If he's not too busy berating food workers, that is.

Although yes, in this case, it was pretty clear when he was telling the guy at the counter "I'm tired of waiting!", it was really about his lab results.  That had all the subtlety of being hit on the head with a hammer.

[catrice2]

My understanding is that you have to ask for accommodations, they don't have to just give them to you. I.e., I can be ADHD and need a quiet environment, but if i have not asked for one I can't complain about not getting it. If I could not have my own office, a cubicle or some type of partition might be a reasonable accommodation.   Someone else could have ADHD and it not bother them at all to be in the middle of chaos, but they have other issues.  Not all Autistic people have the same concerns that Shaun does.  I've interacted with some that are quite funny, some that were affectionate, etc.  Shaun has a lot of abilities. Most jobs are by contract or at will and I would think that as in most jobs that he has the right to utilize people the best way they see fit.  He did not fire Shaun, he moved him to a different position and if the pay was the same unless there is something specific in his contract about being a surgeon, etc. who knows? i don't think we have enough information and they left it vague. I also agree with whomever wrote that it was a smart play while they were under investigation.  

It is never o.k to behave like that at work, but especially when you are supposed to be convincing someone that you can do a job and control your emotions.  That was the equivalent of throwing a tantrum because you did not get your way. People go to work with outside stress everyday, deaths in the family, sick children, etc. and don't get a pass.  You do the work, prove him wrong. He may have already been second guessing his decision. It had not been that long. It was unrealistic to think someone would change their mind in a couple of days or a few weeks, especially while you are shouting at them. Did he have the scapel in his hand? 

I suppose it depends on how the job description is written and what is in the internship agreement.  If communication skills are an integral part, and it is specified in some way that could be an issue. I personally would have a problem with a doctor that I saw in the fetal position in the middle of the hospital just as I would have a problem with having a surgeon, who is about to CUT ON ME not having a personality or some type of bedside manner 

[Annber03]

8 hours ago, Lotrfan 8 said:

This was a sad episode. While unwise, Shaun's reaction was understandable. Being bullied before myself, I remembered how hurt I felt when I was told repeatedly 'You are blaming everything else on your illnesses' or hearing that a minister at church told my mother that I just needed to beaten to act 'normal'(In the minister's opinion, not autistic)

....oh, my god. 

Talk about needing an education on the concept of "What would Jesus do?". Damn. I'm sorry you and your mom had to deal with that kind of BS. 

[rmontro]

While we're on the subject (sort of), could someone explain to me how a residency works?

Is this considered employment or part of his education?  I notice St. Bonaventure is a teaching hospital.

Since Dr. Murphy is already a doctor, apparently he already has his phD.

So completing a residency entitles him to what, exactly?

[possibilities]

Accommodations haven't even come up as an issue. What I see is disparate treatment based solely on prejudice against Shaun's diagnosis, and a disproportionate response to his actual behaviors based on that same prejudice.

Han moved Shaun to pathology and banned him from any interactions with patients or their families after ONE answer Shaun answered correctly.

He decided that based on this, Shaun was incapable of being a surgeon and incapable of interacting with the public on any level.

Compare this to other errors that other doctors have made there.

It's a clear case of discrimination just based on that one example alone. Add to it all the other mitigating and supportive evidence Shaun's value to the team both in and out of the OR, and compare it to the much more serious errors others have made, PLUS that not a single patient has even filed a complaint against him, and Han is establishing a clear system by which Shaun is being discriminated against.

Shaun has not actually asked for any reasonable accommodations. So that is not even on the table at the moment.

[mojito]

Good episode. While I like the character of Shaun, he is one of many possible candidates for his position. Remember how Glassman had to push to get Shaun hired in the first place? He was accommodated when he was given this residency. His quirkiness has been overlooked thus far. 

Shaun could use a lawyer, but he is not owed a job. He's lucky to have the one he has. He's even luckier that he has any kind of doctor job at all considering that he can't control his emotions. How many other people would be given the option of an alternative position instead of merely being bounced out of the program?

I wouldn't want him operating on me but I certainly would want him consulting on my operation. He's great at seeing the bigger picture of complex surgeries, but I don't recall anyone saying that he had exceptional surgical skills.

[Good Doctor Fan]

2 hours ago, mojito said:

I wouldn't want him operating on me but I certainly would want him consulting on my operation. He's great at seeing the bigger picture of complex surgeries, but I don't recall anyone saying that he had exceptional surgical skills.

I think Shaun does have exceptional surgical skills.  He is very focused and precise.  His stitches were described as like they came from a machine. 

[bros402]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand:  What is illegal about it?  

Are you saying an employer can't legally transfer someone to a different department?  Because that seems unlikely.

Does it have something to do with being a resident (because I have no idea how that works)?

Or is just because he has autism and it's a discrimination issue?

From what I know, in order to get a residency, you must pick your specialty and apply to like a list of 5 hospitals, then they interview you, then the hospitals that want you say they want you. So the surgical department at this hospital chose to have him as a surgical resident - he is not a regular employee of the hospital. It would be like taking a student teacher in a Kindergarten special education class and tossing them in a 12th grade social studies class. There isn't the pre-requisite knowledge.

And it is also a clear cut discrimination issue - Han has verbally expressed that in front of multiple witnesses

[kirkola]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:32 PM, Trini said:

Not just this, but why even introduce this arc anyway if it just concludes with two short scenes?

I wonder if DD Kim joining the cast changed some of the stories they wanted to tell. (Maybe Shaun was going to end up dismissed in a different way originally?)

If I were writing this...the arc wouldn't be over.  I would have Han continuing to act the way he does until the board has no choice but to fire/demote him for 1) transferring a resident (when to the best of my knowledge, he's not allowed to do), 2) blackmailing the medical board, and 3) everything else illegal he does while in his position.  He's a lawsuit waiting to happen and not good for the overall image of the hospital.

I get that doctors often have a God complex, which we very much see in both Andrews and Melendez.  And even...to a certain extent Reznick.  I also get that the head of the hospital has to make the tough calls.  But Han seems to be bordering on criminal.

All that being said, I adore Daniel Dae Kim in the role. 

[rubyred]

Kudos to Freddie Highmore, that meltdown scene was hard to watch. 

I wish the show would fish or cut bait on Reznick's character. They started out with her as a clear antagonist/bitch, tried to walk that back with a few "humanizing" episodes (didn't work, IMO), returned to the jealous bitch trope (sucking up to Han, pissed at Claire's success), THEN pulled out the "but WWJD?" oppositional side. Ordinarily I like complex characters who have conflicting beliefs, thoughts, and actions, but all along this character has come across as a list of bullet-point characteristics dictated by plot and actor contract minimums. I don't entirely fault the actress (although...erm) -- the writing doesn't help has done her no favors.

But hey - at least we didn't have to watch another Leah Dancing montage!

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Quote

Kudos to Freddie Highmore, that meltdown scene was hard to watch. 

He is absolutely amazing. Queue this up for his Emmy reel ... please, please, please let him be nominated this year. How does he do it? The intensity, the eyes tearing up, the veins popping ... wow.  "I am a surgeon. I am a surgeon. I AM A SURGEON."  

I thought he was actually going to cut himself when his little scalpel broke and he kept rubbing it trying to calm himself down.

Quote

Liked how Claire supported Shaun at the end just by being there, and not saying anything.

She was perfect. She knew not to say anything, and not even to touch him.

How incredibly gross was that tumor story!  Auggh!!!

I loved how the pathologist (I am so bad with names) told the doctor NOT to tell her her own ideas so as not to influence her in advance and give her confirmation bias. So smart.

Definitely picked up on Lim NOT saying that she doesn't want kids. I would hate for Melendez to get his heart broken again by being with someone who doesn't want kids when he does. However, if her character is close to the actress' age (48), they better get busy trying to make a baby! (I know they could adopt, foster, etc.)

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, MoreCoffeePlease said:

He is absolutely amazing. Queue this up for his Emmy reel ... please, please, please let him be nominated this year. How does he do it? The intensity, the eyes tearing up, the veins popping ... wow.  "I am a surgeon. I am a surgeon. I AM A SURGEON."  

I was actually kind of worried he was going to stab Dr. Han with something from his desk there for a minute.  That would only compound his problems.  And next week it looks like he gets into a bar fight.

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, MoreCoffeePlease said:

He is absolutely amazing. Queue this up for his Emmy reel ... please, please, please let him be nominated this year. How does he do it? The intensity, the eyes tearing up, the veins popping ... wow.  "I am a surgeon. I am a surgeon. I AM A SURGEON."  

It still mystifies me that he's not been nominated for an Emmy, be it for this or "Bates Motel". 

[doctor destiny]

On 3/7/2019 at 8:52 AM, rmontro said:

So it sounds like any legal issues are strictly linked to disability then.

Interesting that Shaun has more protections than a normal person would, if that normal person wasn't very good at communicating.

Normal is an interesting word.  What is normal to an autistic person may not be normal to you.  Who is right and who is wrong?  IMHO the vast majority of problems for non-neurotypicals is the attitude and misunderstanding of NTs.  All that is being asked are reasonable accommodations that are being afforded by law.  The little things like an awareness of sensory sensitivities and that there may be communication difficulties that do not reflect a world of words and imagination inside.  In fact that would seem to the point of choosing the protagonist on the Good Doctor.  Accommodations are there to level the playing field.  It's not a special advantage taken.  (And in any case Shaun has shown himself to be an exceptional resident).  Other minorities are afforded the same right to be treated with dignity and respect too.  The ADA clearly protects disabled people from discrimination.  And Shaun is most definitely being discriminated against.

[bros402]

1 hour ago, doctor destiny said:

Normal is an interesting word.  What is normal to an autistic person may not be normal to you.  Who is right and who is wrong?  IMHO the vast majority of problems for non-neurotypicals is the attitude and misunderstanding of NTs.  All that is being asked are reasonable accommodations that are being afforded by law.  The little things like an awareness of sensory sensitivities and that there may be communication difficulties that do not reflect a world of words and imagination inside.  In fact that would seem to the point of choosing the protagonist on the Good Doctor.  Accommodations are there to level the playing field.  It's not a special advantage taken.  (And in any case Shaun has shown himself to be an exceptional resident).  Other minorities are afforded the same right to be treated with dignity and respect too.  The ADA clearly protects disabled people from discrimination.  And Shaun is most definitely being discriminated against.

This. 1000x this.

[NeenerNeener]

Does anyone besides me want to move Shaun to another hospital show? I keep imagining him working with Mina and Austin on The Resident.

Just me then? Ok.....

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

Normal is an interesting word.  What is normal to an autistic person may not be normal to you.  Who is right and who is wrong?  IMHO the vast majority of problems for non-neurotypicals is the attitude and misunderstanding of NTs.  All that is being asked are reasonable accommodations that are being afforded by law. 

I agree that Shaun is being discriminated against, but there are a lot of autistic people out there who are nowhere near as high functioning as he is, but actually are gravely disabled.

2 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

Does anyone besides me want to move Shaun to another hospital show? I keep imagining him working with Mina and Austin on The Resident.

I've asked several times if he could transfer to another hospital.  He'd probably just end up fighting against the same issues wherever he went though.

[doctor destiny]

23 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I agree that Shaun is being discriminated against, but there are a lot of autistic people out there who are nowhere near as high functioning as he is, but actually are gravely disabled.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.  Are you saying that levels of discrimination are OK for "high functioning" or at least less bad and that the ADA is there for those who are "low functioning"?  The show is actually being quite nuanced in this and it's making the argument against that very supposition.  A "high functioning" autistic man with an IQ of 165 (such as a Shaun) may not be able to work or find it very difficult due to having very high levels of anxiety, a common problem in many autistic people.  In that case an appropriate accommodation is eg. no music in the OR and a style of questioning that is direct and fact-based plus some support on interpersonal skills.  Is a person who can't speak and is autistic "low functioning" and therefore deserves stronger protection under the ADA?  Quite a few autistics with apraxia of speech have PhDs and their accommodation is to have a computer communication system.  It's really murky and best left to the established law of the land IMHO.  Because Shaun is definitively not coping right now.  He is being pulled down into an abyss or at least into the Muddy Waters of the wonderful LP song at the end of episode 16.  That should not have been allowed to happen if the hospital were doing its job properly and if any harm comes to Shaun they very likely would be massively liable for any of the consequences. 

[rmontro]

39 minutes ago, doctor destiny said:

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

I'm not going anywhere with it, just stating a fact.  Many autistic people are not high functioning enough to hold down a job but are actually gravely disabled.  Those are not simply cases of being held back by the attitude and misunderstandings of neurotypicals.  Obviously Shaun is very high functioning.

[doctor destiny]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I'm not going anywhere with it, just stating a fact.  Many autistic people are not high functioning enough to hold down a job but are actually gravely disabled.  Those are not simply cases of being held back by the attitude and misunderstandings of neurotypicals.  Obviously Shaun is very high functioning.

My point is that "very high functioning" doesn't mean doesn't need accommodation.  And that the label is often used to allow for discrimination because they aren't "that" autistic.  The effort that "high functioning" autistics have to make to just fit in society is often severely underplayed.  http://www.thinkingautismguide.com/2016/07/the-effects-of-stigmatizing-language-on.html  In fact the life expectancy of autistic adults is significantly lower than NTs due to the high incidence of suicide.

[rmontro]

21 minutes ago, doctor destiny said:

My point is that "very high functioning" doesn't mean doesn't need accommodation.  And that the label is often used to allow for discrimination because they aren't "that" autistic.  The effort that "high functioning" autistics have to make to just fit in society is often severely underplayed.

Agreed.

[Miles]

I just felt a disturbance in the force. Like a million lawyers just cried out in pleasure and then suddenly filed a lawsuit.

On 3/5/2019 at 7:27 AM, possibilities said:

I have a hard time believing that entire room full of people would go along with han's threats. My hope is that they all left to go immediately to take legal action against Han himself.

Like going to the police and  report Han to for attempted blackmail in three counts...

Edited March 8, 2019 by Miles

[Miles]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:52 PM, rmontro said:

Interesting that Shaun has more protections than a normal person would, if that normal person wasn't very good at communicating.

Well he is discriminated against because of his disability. No normal surgeon would be held to a higher standard than what Shaun is already doing. I have personally seen doctors who were way worse at communicating than Shaun.

Since the discrimination is because of his disability, I'd say the extra protections are reasonable.

[Miles]

On 3/7/2019 at 3:25 AM, mojito said:

Shaun could use a lawyer, but he is not owed a job. He's lucky to have the one he has. He's even luckier that he has any kind of doctor job at all considering that he can't control his emotions. How many other people would be given the option of an alternative position instead of merely being bounced out of the program?

He's not lucky. He is one of the best. Certainly the best resident we've seen on this show. He has proven that time and again. That is why Glassman was so confident in pushing for him.

If Shaun was lucky to get this job then Neil Armstrong was lucky to be the first man on the moon. After all there were many astronauts who could have done the job. I'm sure you would tell him, that he didn't earn his place there through hard work,, right?

[doctor destiny]

18 minutes ago, Miles said:

He's not lucky. He is one of the best. Certainly the best resident we've seen on this show. He has proven that time and again. That is why Glassman was so confident in pushing for him.

If Shaun was lucky to get this job then Neil Armstrong was lucky to be the first man on the moon. After all there were many astronauts who could have done the job. I'm sure you would tell him, that he didn't earn his place there through hard work,, right?

Agreed.  Shaun definitely has the right stuff.  No doubt in later episodes there will be other hospitals looking to hire him away from the hospital.  "Your the one that is making the old guard nervous".  "Wh-hy would people be nervous of me?".  "You have a gift and surgeons judge themselves among their peers.  Right now you are ahead".  Or words to that effect.  In the part 2 of the Islands episode last season.  This is all hiding in plain sight.  A second year resident being pulled in to consult on a complicated operation.  "He has a special talent for visualizing complex anatomy".  Those who know him know his worth.  Han hasn't even tried or having tried too late is too invested in his original decision.  Or it's part of a deal to make the medical board go away.  He even starts saying patronizingly that they could build Shaun up over time.  How easy would it be for anyone to communicate the complex pictures constantly being created in that amazing mind?  He is a great surgeon because of his autism not in spite of it.  That's where Han gets it consistently wrong.

[mojito]

Quote

He's not lucky. He is one of the best. Certainly the best resident we've seen on this show. He has proven that time and again. That is why Glassman was so confident in pushing for him.

He's lucky to have a job because Andrews didn't want to hire him and Glassman had to go out on a limb to get him hired.

Edited March 9, 2019 by mojito

[doctor destiny]

1 hour ago, mojito said:

He's lucky to have a job because Andrews didn't want to hire him and Glassman had to go out on a limb to get him hired.

But you said he was lucky because he was given an alternate.  But that bouncing was based on one direct interaction with a man who had effectively made his mind up prior and had just witnessed not one but two examples of Shaun particular skillset that saved a newborn baby's life.  Shaun wasn't over-emotional when he got illegally bounced.  He became emotional - and very likely clinically depressed - after repeatedly showing his worth and being knocked back.  And Melendez likened him to Audrey Lim as a 2nd year resident nailing surgery after surgery getting ready to be an exceptional surgeon.  The hospital was lucky to have him and recognized that over time in the first series.

[sigmaforce86]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:11 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Freddie Highmore is doing some incredible acting, because when he was sitting in the floor at the end, it was so intense that I had to look away. 

I looked at that and the previous scene where he confronted Dr Han and asked myself for the 1000 time - why doesn't this guy have an Emmy yet!?!?   

On 3/6/2019 at 2:48 AM, bros402 said:

Shaun losing it in Han's office is perfectly understandable. Shaun wanted something, he psyched himself up for it all day, read a bunch of stuff, approached Han about it, wanted to give his argument, and Han just flat out rejected him without even going "Okay, I will consider it." or "Okay, I hear what you said, but right now, I do not think you should be in my surgical department."

It's illegal for Han to yank Shaun from his position how he did. Han is opening the hospital up to so many lawsuits - lawyers should be stalking Shaun to get a minute of his time to sue the hospital on his behalf. His case is a slam dunk if there ever was one.

I agree with this but also I feel like I need something more from this storyline.  Maybe Han is leading Shaun on or forcing him along purposely and that's why this detail is missing but for me it's not just "you can't be a surgeon go work in pathology" - It's:  Why pathology in the first place?  Why does Han get to decide Shaun's specialty?  Why aren't Han or Shaun or even the other Doctors and his friends looking into other specialties where he could be the most use?  My first thought was Shaun would make a great diagnostician because he sees the big picture and all the possibilities (but I don't know how realistic or TV realistic that specialty is).  And why can't Shaun work both pathology for diagnosis and work surgery without patient contact if it's the "human touch" that bothers Han?  A lot of questions but mostly the one that gets me is the first one - why are they all acting like if Shaun can't be a Surgeon then he has to be a Pathologist, those are the only choices and Han gets to decide?  I'm usually a fill in the blanks sort of viewer but this hole in the story has me stumped and a little annoyed because I feel like if they addressed that it would better explain why Han is right or show why Shaun should be given another chance.

[SunnyBeBe]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:57 PM, rmontro said:

While we're on the subject (sort of), could someone explain to me how a residency works?

Is this considered employment or part of his education?  I notice St. Bonaventure is a teaching hospital.

Since Dr. Murphy is already a doctor, apparently he already has his phD.

So completing a residency entitles him to what, exactly?

I did a little research, since, employment law is not my area, and apparently a medical residency could involve school law, contract law and employment law. There's a link with an article on previous page.  I hope the show will properly address it. We'll see. 

[BillR]

What bothered me the most is that Shaun comes in, saves the patient and then has to sit in the balcony as the team is applauded.  All of the surgical staff “own” that.  All of them take him for granted.  If I run another hospital, I hire him in a heartbeat.  The bottom line is you want to save patients.  He can walk on the ceiling as long as he does that job.

[beyondthezone]

On 3/7/2019 at 3:57 AM, rmontro said:

While we're on the subject (sort of), could someone explain to me how a residency works?

Is this considered employment or part of his education?  I notice St. Bonaventure is a teaching hospital.

Since Dr. Murphy is already a doctor, apparently he already has his phD.

So completing a residency entitles him to what, exactly?

Murphy doesn't have a PhD, he completed Medical School(MD) after which one is given the title "Doctor".

After med school, new doctors apply for residencies of a specific specialty e.g Surgery, Internal Medicine, Radiology, psichiatry. 

A residency is both employment and education. Ater this is completed, the resident usually undergoes an exam to become board certified and becomes an Attending. Further training into a sub specialty e.g Cardiothoracic, plastics can be done.

Edited March 10, 2019 by beyondthezone

[Calvada]

Lea, with her "this again" sigh, was so annoying.  It's his career he's upset about, not the fact that the deli ran out of his favorite soup.  Everything he's worked for, everything he's devoted years to attaining, and it's taken away from him by someone who has had minimal contact with him.  

Lim has a legal obligation to report suspected child abuse; she had no other option when the results came back.  But why didn't she think of the test that Shaun thought of?  

I can relate to what Glassman was going through.  I've twice been there in the seemingly interminable wait for test results. You have every scenario running through your head on a endless loop.  I even dreamed about the doctor giving me good news, and had nightmares about the doctor giving me the worst news.  I got bad news once (but good bad news, in that it was treatable) and the best news possible once.

The tumor story was amazing.  I've read these stories about people who have incredibly large tumors removed, and I've never thought about what they have to do to actually lift it up and away from the patient during surgery.  

[theatremouse]

27 minutes ago, Calvada said:

Lim has a legal obligation to report suspected child abuse; she had no other option when the results came back.  But why didn't she think of the test that Shaun thought of?  

I think given the nature of the injury/the baby's symptoms it was reasonable that it did not occur to her the issue might have been there since birth. It was presented as unlikely-but-true. 

[Good Doctor Fan]

On 3/6/2019 at 2:57 PM, mookster said:

Quote

Glassman IS a narcissist. His gift to his doctor was all about him - and I get that being "cured" allows for some self-reflection, but come on. That said, he acted the hell out of every scene he was in, but I just can't stand the hamhandedness.

I don't Glassman is a narcissist.  He asked about a spa gift and something else.  The dr wouldn't be able ethically to accept an expensive gift.  So Glassman gave her a piece of himself, something meaningful to him.  I thought it was beautiful.  

[Good Doctor Fan]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:26 PM, possibilities said:

Lea doesn't believe in Shaun.

I don't know.  I thinks she's trying to be a friend.  Shaun deserves to be a surgeon.   But I think Lea didn't want to see to see Shaun lose everything at the hospital.  Glassman's advice to Shaun to stand up for himself without further help on how to communicate was NOT helpful.  As much as I did love seeing Shaun stand up for himself, he needed help before that to think through the communication.

[theatremouse]

I was frustrated by how they wrote this because they seemed to show Murphy googling the fuck out of how to communicate and how to convince your boss and blah blah blah, and while I get that, since he was told his reassignment was primarily due to his lack of communication skills:

A) he completely failed at using any technique he might've looked up during that meeting. 

B) he never thought to google anything about a surgical resident being reassigned to a different specialty and how to undo that...which probably would've led him to more useful advice

On the one hand, humans aren't always totally rational but on the other...seeing how he problem-solves and thinks about medical issues, it was weird to me when he decided to do research it was only about the more broad "communication" and not about his actual specific literal situation.

This is such a frustration plot.

[BillR]

How can Han fire Shaun outright?  He doesn’t work for him anymore.  Han isn’t in charge of Pathology.

[theatremouse]

If Han weren't in some position of authority over Pathology he shouldn't have been able to transfer Murphy there in the first place.

[SnarkyTart]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:28 AM, TurtlePower said:

First, Shaun does nothing wrong when he answers patients’ questions. He was simply honest with that mother a couple episodes ago. 

When someone has a disability, a reasonable accommodation must be found for that person before transferring them to another department. And, aside from the meltdown Shaun had, he’d done nothing “wrong” so, I don’t even see how Han has anything on Shaun in the first place. 

I have no idea what Han has against Shaun or why he did this to him, but it was very, very wrong.  

I haven't let go of the thought that we didn't actually see Shaun melt down in Han's office. The last scene we in the office was Han telling Shaun, "If I have to call security to remove you from my office, you will be terminated". Cut scene. Next we see Shaun in the locker room, where he absolutely does melt down. I'm left with the fact that we didn't see Shaun being removed by security, and we didn't see Han actually fire Shaun. Is it at least possible that, after Han warned Shaun, Shaun left the office willingly, wasn't terminated, and was able to control himself enough to wait until he was in the locker room to have a meltdown?

I'm also thinking that there's more behind Han's treatment of Shaun than we've been shown so far. I keep going back in my mind to the first time Han was working in the O.R. with Shaun. Han turned up some music, Shaun was distracted/triggered by it. Claire told Han that Shaun was having trouble with the music. Han's response was something like, "So what? I like it. Turn it up".  That was, imo, a very deliberate attempt to provoke Shaun into being unable to perform surgery.  Yeah, it didn't work, but why did Han do it? (This was a perfect example of someone not making a reasonable accommodation of an employee's disability. Simply, turn off the music in the O.R. when Shawn is there).

Finally, and this I don't have a clear memory of: did Glassman take permanent retirement as the president of the hospital? Or was it more like an indefinite medical leave?  Is there a chance Glassman could return to his former position?  That would certainly rebalance the show. 

[SnarkyTart]

14 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

 duplicate, sorry

Edited March 11, 2019 by SnarkyTart

[TurtlePower]

11 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

I haven't let go of the thought that we didn't actually see Shaun melt down in Han's office. The last scene we in the office was Han telling Shaun, "If I have to call security to remove you from my office, you will be terminated". Cut scene. Next we see Shaun in the locker room, where he absolutely does melt down. I'm left with the fact that we didn't see Shaun being removed by security, and we didn't see Han actually fire Shaun. Is it at least possible that, after Han warned Shaun, Shaun left the office willingly, wasn't terminated, and was able to control himself enough to wait until he was in the locker room to have a meltdown?

I'm also thinking that there's more behind Han's treatment of Shaun than we've been shown so far. I keep going back in my mind to the first time Han was working in the O.R. with Shaun. Han turned up some music, Shaun was distracted/triggered by it. Claire told Han that Shaun was having trouble with the music. Han's response was something like, "So what? I like it. Turn it up".  That was, imo, a very deliberate attempt to provoke Shaun into being unable to perform surgery.  Yeah, it didn't work, but why did Han do it? (This was a perfect example of someone not making a reasonable accommodation of an employee's disability. Simply, turn off the music in the O.R. when Shawn is there).

Finally, and this I don't have a clear memory of: did Glassman take permanent retirement as the president of the hospital? Or was it more like an indefinite medical leave?  Is there a chance Glassman could return to his former position?  That would certainly rebalance the show. 

Interesting observation. I was wondering something similar but could not put it into words, at least not as well as you did. Han seemed to be looking for a way to push Shaun just far enough to get a negative response or action affecting his work os Han could say "see, told you" in regards to Shaun's autism. It's as if Han wants him to fail. 

And you're right. We didn't see Shaun get fired; normally people who are fired are indeed escorted off property. It's been a week since the last episode so I don't remember if he said anything about losing his job or anything like that, I just assumed he may have. 

[NeenerNeener]

The previews for tonight imply he doesn't work at the hospital anymore. Whether he quit or was fired is unclear. But then,  previews are supposed to make you guess and tune in to get the answers.

[possibilities]

I can't imagine that if he was fired they would have let him be walking around the locker room unsupervised afterwards.

And if he had a massive meltdown after his initial "I'm a surgeon" statements, wouldn't they show that? It's Emmy-bait, for one thing. 

[Good Doctor Fan]

19 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

I haven't let go of the thought that we didn't actually see Shaun melt down in Han's office. The last scene we in the office was Han telling Shaun, "If I have to call security to remove you from my office, you will be terminated". Cut scene. Next we see Shaun in the locker room, where he absolutely does melt down. I'm left with the fact that we didn't see Shaun being removed by security, and we didn't see Han actually fire Shaun. Is it at least possible that, after Han warned Shaun, Shaun left the office willingly, wasn't terminated, and was able to control himself enough to wait until he was in the locker room to have a meltdown?

I'm also thinking that there's more behind Han's treatment of Shaun than we've been shown so far. I keep going back in my mind to the first time Han was working in the O.R. with Shaun. Han turned up some music, Shaun was distracted/triggered by it. Claire told Han that Shaun was having trouble with the music. Han's response was something like, "So what? I like it. Turn it up".  That was, imo, a very deliberate attempt to provoke Shaun into being unable to perform surgery.  Yeah, it didn't work, but why did Han do it? (This was a perfect example of someone not making a reasonable accommodation of an employee's disability. Simply, turn off the music in the O.R. when Shawn is there).

Finally, and this I don't have a clear memory of: did Glassman take permanent retirement as the president of the hospital? Or was it more like an indefinite medical leave?  Is there a chance Glassman could return to his former position?  That would certainly rebalance the show. 

Yes, I'm wondering about whether he was actually fired too.  Might be wishful thinking, but Carly's "You don't work here anymore" could just refer to the Pathology Department.  Guess we'll find out soon.  Can't wait!

Interesting comments about Han.  He has seemed to really have it out for Shaun.  Shaun has done excellent work since Han's been around.  And Han doesn't want him because he was honest and told a couple that prescription drugs taken early in pregnancy might be responsible for the baby's problems.  Just doesn't add up.

[jhlipton]

I'm with Han -- Shaun lost any lawsuit he may have had by the breakdown in Han's office.  He could have written a report on why a compromise with him being largely in Pathology (where his diagnostic skills work best), with the occasional surgical consult, where his visual skills work best, with one copy to Han and one copy to Andrews (who has the power to override ANY decision by Han).  

Perhaps, Shaun can't be moved or fired due to his autism, but he's not entitled to any job due to it either.  No, Shaun, you're NOT a surgeon, no matter how loud or many times you scream it, unless the Chief of Surgery says you are.

And he's being an insulting little prick to Carly by inferring that her job is inferior to surgeons.

On 3/5/2019 at 9:33 AM, possibilities said:

When Claire was being sexually harassed, she stayed calm, but if she had lost her temper and yelled at the guy doing it, would it have been disqualifying for a position as a surgeon? Or would we have understood that she was being systematically mistreated and she'd finally had enough?

Shaun was being systematically mistreated and he finally got angry. It would have been more effective to get legal representation, but what he did was not unprovoked, and Han is actually the one who is at fault here, from every possible legal and moral angle.

Yelling at your boss (or anyone) at work is not usually a savvy move. But if Han had, say, grabbed Shaun's crotch, and Shaun yelled at him to stop it, it would not have been Shaun who was in the wrong.

Likewise, in the current situation, Han is at fault and Shaun is handling it in a way that's ineffective, but his behavior is not the primary problem here.

These are not nearly the same.  Shaun was put in a department that his boss thought that he would be better at (and I agree).  Once transferred, he's done nothing to show Han that he can cope with not getting everything his way.  Han doesn't owe Shaun his job.  And Shaun wasn't physically attacked in any way.

On 3/5/2019 at 5:25 PM, catrice2 said:

I actually found myself thinking "where is Andrews?" during the episode.  

Good question.  You'd think he'd have an opinion, one way or the other, about Shaun vs Han, and he has the power to fire either or both.

On 3/4/2019 at 8:19 PM, rhys said:

Too bad Shaun can't be half time surgery & half pathology.

That's what I think he would be best at.

[sonyab]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:19 PM, rhys said:

Too bad Shaun can't be half time surgery & half pathology.

Ohhhh! Love that idea! 🙂