S02.E07: Deflectors

[Miles]

Klyden is such an asshole who hides behind "tradition". Bortus really should divorce him, and yes I mean in the Mocklen way.

[DarkRaichu]

15 hours ago, Raja said:

I agree, except Star Trek homage and what Kirk didn't know about Vulcan and Spock 

It is a homage, but still does not work with the characters on Orville.  Kelly seems to be the type of Commander who researches everything twice before going on a mission, surely she would not be so clueless about the Moclans' culture.

I am still not sure if we are supposed to take the show seriously though. If it is supposed to be joke of the week with weird alien show I am ok with not giving it too much analysis.  But the writers also seem to want to do worldbuilding complete with allegory a la Star Trek (pre JJ Abrams)  

[ganesh]

Not if the Moclans aren't letting that information out. You sent do research if you can't access the info

[Chyromaniac]

So wait- they didn’t offload the non-essential/civilian personnel before the shield test with live weapons?

[Orbert]

Apparently not.  LaMarr was ready to call off the test because the deflectors hadn't reset and 300 lives were not worth risking over a test.

[DarkRaichu]

32 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

So wait- they didn’t offload the non-essential/civilian personnel before the shield test with live weapons?

No way, that would be too logical

[fauntleroy]

300 on board! Wow. Not a fan of this. We never see them of course, too many to show but it means they can bring anyone forth for a plot or two - teachers, schoolkids, other parents, random aliens etc, without ever leaving the house as it were. Might as well be a town in 25th-cent Ohio. Also considering the pace of job automation today what the heck are all those people doing. No ship is going to need that much labor. Granted this is an homage and all the Enterprises were similarly (pointlessly imo) populous.

Better to have a small crew so they have to go outside for the stories. Compare to (23rd-cent?) The Expanse where ships mostly have small crews doing specific chores. And where the people live are destinations - asteroids, planets. Because space is perilous! Like Moclans oopsy shooting torpedoes at you!

Re this specific episode (and it certainly has engendered beaucoup of discussion), between main and subplots, might help to integrate the humor that is lying around into the main plot. Yaphit sidling up to angry Talla at the exact most inopportune moment, after she tore Klyden a new one, and asking her out for example. Or testifying for Locar at the trial. Something goofy can still be poignant. Otherwise if the issue is a serious one, eg Locar condemned, then the lighter moments seem out of place, a bit jarring even. Inconsistency of tone - as several above have pointed out.

Edited February 16, 2019 by fauntleroy

[ganesh]

They didn't say 300 crew, just people. So that includes spouses, kids, etc. That doesn't seem unusually large to me. There's probably three shifts worth of crew. For example, Gordon isn't the only pilot. Just using an aircraft carrier as an analogy. Or even a submarine. If Engineering has 3 shifts of crew, that's nearly 50 people alone. There's the entire support staff for the kitchen, medical, etc.

They're an exploratory ship, so it makes sense they'd load up on supplies, crew because it's likely they don't get into 'dock' often. As opposed to a military ship which would presumably go somewhere, engage, complete the mission, and leave. 

Debating whether it's better for smaller ships on more tightly defined missions for a space military isn't an unreasonable discussion, but that's not what this show is. 

There is a level of suspension of disbelief for a scifi show. FTL travel, etc. This doesn't seem too high a buy in for me. 

[marinw]

On 2/14/2019 at 11:54 PM, Danielg342 said:

I get that Locar's heterosexual row was a stand-in for homophobia, but it might have been nice to at least understand why the Moclans are so bent on male-male bonding

I continue to appreciate the thoughtfulness of you posts, @Danielg342

There may have been some historical event that  made Moclans so fearful of women, although I don’t know how the egg thing can work with one gender. You can in theory survive as a species with just women, but not with just men. But that’s besides the point here.

I don’t think is IS a good, rational explanation for the Moclans Hetrophobia. The Moclans are a rather obvious stand-ins for human prejeduces, so let’s imagine if an alien envoy was visiting Earth. This being would wonder why some humans do not acknowledge the worth of those of a certian gender, skin pigmentation, or sexular orientation. The alien vistor wouldn’t find an good explantion, becuase there isn’t one.

Edited February 17, 2019 by marinw

[legaleagle53]

24 minutes ago, marinw said:

There may have been some historical event that  made Moclans so fearful of women, although I don’t know how the egg thing can work with one gender. You can in theory survive as a species with just women, but not with just men. But that’s besides the point here.

My guess is that Moclan physiology simply allows them to lay eggs rather than bear live young as humans do.  As for how it works with two males, my further guess is that all naturally male Moclans, like all Earth males, carry both an X chromosome (female) and a Y chromosome (male), but the Y chromosome is far more dominant in Moclans, so the XX combination from both parents (which would naturally produce a female child) is simply so uncommon that it only occurs once every 75 years, and that's probably the way the Moclans evolved as a means of surviving the harsh Moclan environment, as Bortus explained.  It's simply natural selection as applied to gender.

[fauntleroy]

48 minutes ago, ganesh said:

They didn't say 300 crew, just people. So that includes spouses, kids, etc. That doesn't seem unusually large to me. There's probably three shifts worth of crew. For example, Gordon isn't the only pilot. Just using an aircraft carrier as an analogy. Or even a submarine. If Engineering has 3 shifts of crew, that's nearly 50 people alone. There's the entire support staff for the kitchen, medical, etc.

Right. I didn't say 300 crew either. Kitchen staff? Anyway yea, the wisdom of carrying non-crew including kids considering the routine risk is an issue not specific to this episode.

More pertinent is the tone jumping around. Talking flower one minute, death panel the next. Better if the humor was integrated somehow or dispensed with, at least in this episode, imo.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

Klyden is such an asshole who hides behind "tradition". Bortus really should divorce him, and yes I mean in the Mocklen way.

Except Topa would likely be adversely effected. Better (IMO) to have an episode in which the divorce is done the Orvilleian way. Maybe Klyden is left on some secret (to the Moclans) planet, and Topa can Skype him when he wants to and visit him for Festivus.

[Happywatcher]

On 2/14/2019 at 11:54 PM, Danielg342 said:

The bigger problem is that, with the Moclans painted so thoroughly as this culture of intolerance and extremism, there seems to be a "reverse racism" going on where the show consistently paints the Moclans as some kind of a weird "other". The show already makes no qualms about making us hate the Krill and thus justify the racism against them, but if it doesn't course correct with the Moclans soon, they're going to be next in "racism" pile, just for being too weird, and I'm not sure that's where the show should want to go.

Your point of view is as valid as any of the other people watching. 

The original Star Trek literally lectured us on racism with the people who were black on half their bodies and white on the other, and were in a genocidal war through the ages against the opposite colored one.

By making the gay aliens the fascist assholes, in some ways worse than the 1950s US court and social systems against gays (straights/girls in the series context), they can tell morality tales that make people think by changing that social conflict in large but still understandable ways.

It is amazing that a parody Star Trek is doing a better job, both in morality and in raw storytelling, than the super serious sci fi on the networks, CBS pay, and Netflix/amazon.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Happywatcher

[ganesh]

Is the show wanting us to hate the Krill? Because Ed doesn't seem to hold that point of view. The episode of Ed and Gordon sneaking on the ship was to get a hold of their holy book to learn more about them. Ed also helped out the 'cartographer' when they crashed on the planet, and sent her back to them over Kelly's objections.

[ketose]

7 hours ago, Emma9 said:

I would put pon farr on the level of Moclans hatching a girl every now and then, or incidences of heterosexuality - something they actively try to hide from outsiders whenever possible. However, the 'divorce proceedings' issue seems like pure cultural miscommunication - Klyden didn't seem to be under the impression that he'd face any repercussions for stabbing Bortus, nor did he make an effort to hide it. If there are any Union ambassadors on Moclus, I'd think they'd hear tell of this particular method of conflict resolution before long - and a captain with a mated Moclan couple on his ship should certainly be made aware of it.

I watched a little of "About a Girl" today and Isaac was the one who mentioned the birth rate of Moclan females. Either there is a cultural database on Moclans or Kalons have more information than the Union.

[Danielg342]

30 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Is the show wanting us to hate the Krill?

Well, the Krill are unabashedly portrayed as antagonists in whatever story they appear in. Sympathetic opinions of them are few and far between.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Except Topa would likely be adversely effected. Better (IMO) to have an episode in which the divorce is done the Orvilleian way. Maybe Klyden is left on some secret (to the Moclans) planet, and Topa can Skype him when he wants to and visit him for Festivus.

With family in the only nation on earth without divorce there is third option the separation. Perhaps knocking out a tooth and having semi accepted boyfriends in the future 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, Happywatcher said:

t is amazing that a parody Star Trek is doing a better job, both in morality and in raw storytelling, than the super serious sci fi on the networks, CBS pay, and Netflix/amazon.

YMMV, but I maintain that The Expanse is the best Sci Fi show of the late 2010's. The Orville does have its' charms and is quite enjoyable and thought-provoking.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

Well, the Krill are unabashedly portrayed as antagonists in whatever story they appear in. Sympathetic opinions of them are few and far between.

That's disingenuous because you only quoted my first line and didn't include the rest of my commentary. Ed clearly does not hate the Krill and has made quite risky efforts to understand them. The initial question was 'does the show want us to hate the Krill?' The creator of the show has had the main character (who is the same person) very much not act out of hate, and acted against the advice of his X/O, who seemed to be stating that the Union policy was to not engage with the Krill in that manner. 

I've said before that I'd really like to see an episode where there is a diplomatic crisis and the Krill demand that Ed be mediator. I like Seth, but I'm not going to give him too high props, but I see the Union-Krill to offer interesting discussion on USA-Iran relations irl currently. 

[Danielg342]

The simple fact about the Krill is that, in every episode they've been in, they've played the antagonists. I don't believe the show has done enough- even with Ed portraying Seth- to change the framing of the Krill as "the bad guys".

I grant, and maybe hope, that there will be a story where Ed pleads to the Union to try diplomacy with the Krill, and I do hope some Krill characters (maybe Teleya?) become actual sympathetic characters. I would want to see how that plays out first, though.

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Except Topa would likely be adversely effected. Better (IMO) to have an episode in which the divorce is done the Orvilleian way. Maybe Klyden is left on some secret (to the Moclans) planet, and Topa can Skype him when he wants to and visit him for Festivus.

Or send Topa to live with some adoptive (human) grandparents. He can comeback as teenager a few years later for Bortus to teach him the Moclan ways... .... .. ..

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I've said before that I'd really like to see an episode where there is a diplomatic crisis and the Krill demand that Ed be mediator. I like Seth, but I'm not going to give him too high props, but I see the Union-Krill to offer interesting discussion on USA-Iran relations irl currently. 

I can see Ed becomes Union ambassador to Krill at the end of the series after the Great Union-Krill war 😉

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

The simple fact about the Krill is that, in every episode they've been in, they've played the antagonists.

They weren't antagonists when Ed and Gordon infiltrated the ship until their cover was blown. Which, once it was, I can't really say that being pissed off about it is an inherent Krill-are-bad. Anyone who finds spies are going to be pissed. 

It seems to me that the Krill are supposed to be the "enemy" at face value within the context of the Union, but Ed doesn't see it that way. Being an exploratory ship, Ed apparently has latitude.  

Honestly, I have to say, I'm on this site multiple times per day, and I like to talk about the shows I watch, but this show generates the most insightful discussion. The show is appointment tv for me. People are missing out on this. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by ganesh

[Emma9]

6 hours ago, ketose said:

I watched a little of "About a Girl" today and Isaac was the one who mentioned the birth rate of Moclan females. Either there is a cultural database on Moclans or Kalons have more information than the Union.

I stand corrected. In the former case, they really need someone on board who knows this stuff; in the latter case, Claire hopefully immediately had Isaac patch any gaps in the records in case he knew anything potentially relevant to the Moclans who could become her patients. (In the course of which, you'd still think the spousicide would come up.)

[Ceindreadh]

11 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

My guess is that Moclan physiology simply allows them to lay eggs rather than bear live young as humans do.  As for how it works with two males, my further guess is that all naturally male Moclans, like all Earth males, carry both an X chromosome (female) and a Y chromosome (male), but the Y chromosome is far more dominant in Moclans, so the XX combination from both parents (which would naturally produce a female child) is simply so uncommon that it only occurs once every 75 years, and that's probably the way the Moclans evolved as a means of surviving the harsh Moclan environment, as Bortus explained.  It's simply natural selection as applied to gender.

I’m not convinced that the ‘one every 75 years’ statistic is accurate. That is, I know that that’s the rate that has been said on the show and what the general Moclan population seem to believe. But Khlyden isn’t 75 years older than Topa, is he?  And if the rate of female births is so low, how can the gender reassignment surgery be such a simple procedure if they only get to do it once every 75 years or so. 

I won’t be surprised if we find out a few episodes/seasons later that there’s a much much higher incidence of female births but that the government cover it up and each family think that they’re the only one in that generation who’ve had a daughter. 

[shapeshifter]

On 2/15/2019 at 6:47 AM, shapeshifter said:

We still haven't gotten around to talking about all the double entendres WRT the title of the episode, "Deflectors."

So far just crickets and Krill WRT (with regards to) my (implied) suggestion that some of you young grasshoppers might be better able than I to consider the meaning of the episode title, "Deflectors." 
So, I guess the obvious is that Locar's holographic hack deflected suspicion from himself, but there's got to be more, right?
Like maybe all the deflecting from how every Moclan who marries a surgically sex-altered mate is attracted to females?
Maybe they'll revisit this and all this will happen--

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

I’m not convinced that the ‘one every 75 years’ statistic is accurate. That is, I know that that’s the rate that has been said on the show and what the general Moclan population seem to believe. But Khlyden isn’t 75 years older than Topa, is he?  And if the rate of female births is so low, how can the gender reassignment surgery be such a simple procedure if they only get to do it once every 75 years or so. 

I won’t be surprised if we find out a few episodes/seasons later that there’s a much much higher incidence of female births but that the government cover it up and each family think that they’re the only one in that generation who’ve had a daughter. 

--which I was thinking too.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

I’m not convinced that the ‘one every 75 years’ statistic is accurate. That is, I know that that’s the rate that has been said on the show and what the general Moclan population seem to believe. But Khlyden isn’t 75 years older than Topa, is he?  And if the rate of female births is so low, how can the gender reassignment surgery be such a simple procedure if they only get to do it once every 75 years or so. 

It's a statistic, it's not a literal fact. They take however many females they know about being born and however many years, and come up with an average. Some years may have more females born than others, plus the words "know about" are fairly operative. If someone (like Klyden's parents) doesn't report it and secretly has the surgery, that also drives down the stat.

[Ceindreadh]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

It's a statistic, it's not a literal fact. They take however many females they know about being born and however many years, and come up with an average. Some years may have more females born than others, plus the words "know about" are fairly operative. If someone (like Klyden's parents) doesn't report it and secretly has the surgery, that also drives down the stat.

Exactly. Somebody on Moclan has to know the exact % of female births. IIRC, one of the justifications for the procedure was that a sole female Moclan would be an outcast. But if the truth is that there are a lot more female births than they’re being told about, then that argument loses its impact. 

[Omeletsmom]

19 hours ago, Orbert said:

Apparently not.  LaMarr was ready to call off the test because the deflectors hadn't reset and 300 lives were not worth risking over a test.

I assumed that he was there as assurance that the Moclans would not actually blow up the ship; a hostage to their good will.

[rmontro]

On 2/16/2019 at 1:04 PM, Emma9 said:

If there are any Union ambassadors on Moclus, I'd think they'd hear tell of this particular method of conflict resolution before long - and a captain with a mated Moclan couple on his ship should certainly be made aware of it.

Well, I agree.  But to play devil's advocate for a moment, Moclans don't seem to be the type of people who are very forthcoming about their intimate affairs.  Maybe they keep their private lives private.  Bortus actually seems to be more open minded that most, which is probably an effect of working with the other species on board the Enterprise - er, the Orville.

Another thing to consider is maybe the divorce rate for Moclans is very low.  Maybe having to stab your lover to get one even serves as a deterrent. 

[ganesh]

Are there married Moclan couples on other ships? 

[eejm]

I really like how Bortus has been fleshed out as such a complex character.  I get the idea that he’s rather dry, blunt, and regimented even for a Moclan, yet he has a very refreshing open-mindedness that seems completely contrary to his character.  Bortus was very morally opposed to Topah’s reassignment, and he obviously knew about Locar’s attraction to females, yet told no one.  Bortus isn’t exactly an outspoken advocate for social causes, but I do appreciate that he sometimes sets himself apart in his attitudes not being so black and white.

[The Kings Foot]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

They weren't antagonists when Ed and Gordon infiltrated the ship until their cover was blown. Which, once it was, I can't really say that being pissed off about it is an inherent Krill-are-bad. Anyone who finds spies are going to be pissed. 

It seems to me that the Krill are supposed to be the "enemy" at face value within the context of the Union, but Ed doesn't see it that way. Being an exploratory ship, Ed apparently has latitude.  

Honestly, I have to say, I'm on this site multiple times per day, and I like to talk about the shows I watch, but this show generates the most insightful discussion. The show is appointment tv for me. People are missing out on this. 

that Krill ship was carrying a big ass missile designed to wipe out a human colony.

[ganesh]

In the first episode? Or the one where Ed and the cartographer? 

From Ed's pov, he's not treating them like enemies. I've said before that he might be the only officer in the Union that had learned so much about them. 

[TVSpectator]

On 2/16/2019 at 10:55 AM, ketose said:

In "About a Girl" there was the revelation that one of the greatest Moclan poets was female.

In this episode, Talla offered Locar sanctuary aboard the Orville, but he refused. I would assume that Ed would have gotten involved if Locar requested sanctuary. Of course, if the Moclans chose a military response, the Orville would be dead meat.

Oh, you are right. I have forgotten about that Moclan. But for the most part they are written as a planet of the hats type and so are the Krill. 

[Emma9]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

Moclans don't seem to be the type of people who are very forthcoming about their intimate affairs.  Maybe they keep their private lives private.  Bortus actually seems to be more open minded that most, which is probably an effect of working with the other species on board the Enterprise - er, the Orville.

Another thing to consider is maybe the divorce rate for Moclans is very low.  Maybe having to stab your lover to get one even serves as a deterrent. 

Since we're only going off one incident, there's really no way to tell, but my perception was that they don't view stabbing your husband as something that needs to be concealed - again, Klyden didn't try to do so, nor did he seem to think it would be considered a crime. So apparently he assumed that either humans have a similar custom, or that the Union knew about the Moclan one and would be fine with him carrying it out.

Female births, on the other hand, are so stigmatized that Klyden didn't even know that he'd been one of them until adulthood.

(Of course, it's probably not helping that Moclan culture is being 'written' one episode at a time, making it hard to gauge past incidents in light of subsequent events - for example, after finding out that Locar could be put to death for being heterosexual, I'm surprised that Bortus wasn't permanently banished/ostracized for trying to avert Topa's surgery.)

Although you also make a good point about the divorce rate!

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Emma9 said:

Since we're only going off one incident, there's really no way to tell, but my perception was that they don't view stabbing your husband as something that needs to be concealed

Not something that needs to be concealed, but not something that needs to be brought up either.   Moclans don't strike me as the types who do a lot of gossiping around the water cooler.

By the way, I've just realized something.  Isaac, in the early episodes, really came off as a smug jerk - always making remarks about how inferior the humans around him were.  That stuff seems to have disappeared.  He even seems to be appreciating humanity, as he apparently values his relationship with Dr. Finn.

[clyo22]

This episode like every episode about the Moclan species annoyed me. I understand the message but the execution makes me want to stab someone. If you know nothing about something just use another subject.

 There is no such thing as an all male species. When they said that in the first episode I thought it was only for cheap laugh and I handwaved it. But they keep using the Moclan to depict important subjects but to me if it doesn't make sense it makes me even angrier because when you want to talk about FGM or intolerance and hatred you need to make it right.

The sexual gender "male" only exist in parallel to a "female" gender in sexual reproduction. If the species only has one gender as they initially said then it cannot be "all male".  That is not how science works! If Bortus made a viable egg without the fecondation of his mate, then they have an asexual reproduction and are therefore an asexual species and coupling is only for social reasons. If fecondation is needed and his mate did fecondate the egg then I don't know what it is they call "female" that is born every 75 years. If they don't need they can all produce eggs and fecondate them then they are a hermaphrodite species with both male and female sexual organs. In this case also they are not "all male".

What exactly makes someone female in that species? If they don't need them for reproduction why are they call the oposite of male? We cannot really tell the prevalence of those "females" since we don't have the birthrate or any other epidemiological data of the species. But it was implied that "females" are very rare and given the moclan law I assume that it is very unlikely to meet one in a lifetime. So how exactly does Locar knows he is attracted to "female"? Is he attracted to female of other species? How is that so prevalent that it is punishable by death? How is that different from being attracted to a male from another species?

This Mocaln thing make my head hurt. I hate it and it annoys me because I actually care about the subject but the science doesn't work and I can't look pass it...

[ganesh]

16 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Not something that needs to be concealed, but not something that needs to be brought up either. 

I can easily see if a Union official doesn't request any specific information that they would just be like, 'by the way, we stab each other.' I also would like to know how many Moclan married couples are actually on the Union ships. If there's only like 5 of them, I could also see that no one really thought this would be an issue. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, clyo22 said:

This Mocaln thing make my head hurt. I hate it and it annoys me because I actually care about the subject but the science doesn't work and I can't look pass it...

The Moclans aren't there because of science, they exist solely so Seth can tell his social morality tales.  That's not the worst thing in the world, but it isn't the best science fiction either.

[Emma9]

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

Not something that needs to be concealed, but not something that needs to be brought up either.   Moclans don't strike me as the types who do a lot of gossiping around the water cooler.

Right, but - again - that's why there need to be more anthropologists running around. Is there nobody in the Union who's made Moclans their particular area of study? If the knowledge is out there, is there no one on the Orville who's accessed it?

(They know more about Yaphit, for goodness' sake - I loved the "Is he planning to split in half?"/"It's against HR policy to ask that" exchange earlier this season.)

In the astrology episode, for example, when Claire was asking about the c-section, and the doctor said "Well, obviously we didn't want the baby to be born [whatever], you must call them something else", and she just went "Oh, right...", that mission could've used someone on the away team who'd say "I'm sure we do, tell me more about that!"

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Emma9 said:

Right, but - again - that's why there need to be more anthropologists running around. Is there nobody in the Union who's made Moclans their particular area of study? If the knowledge is out there, is there no one on the Orville who's accessed it?

It looks like in this particular future, everyone is too busy congratulating themselves on how "woke" they are to pay much attention to other species.  But yeah, you'd think they'd study the practices of the aliens that they work around, if only for the bits that they can be self righteously indignant at.   😉

[benteen]

My initial thought was "another Moclan episode?" but I really enjoyed this one.

Edited February 18, 2019 by benteen

[ketose]

6 hours ago, clyo22 said:

This episode like every episode about the Moclan species annoyed me. I understand the message but the execution makes me want to stab someone. If you know nothing about something just use another subject.

 There is no such thing as an all male species. When they said that in the first episode I thought it was only for cheap laugh and I handwaved it. But they keep using the Moclan to depict important subjects but to me if it doesn't make sense it makes me even angrier because when you want to talk about FGM or intolerance and hatred you need to make it right.

The sexual gender "male" only exist in parallel to a "female" gender in sexual reproduction. If the species only has one gender as they initially said then it cannot be "all male".  That is not how science works! If Bortus made a viable egg without the fecondation of his mate, then they have an asexual reproduction and are therefore an asexual species and coupling is only for social reasons. If fecondation is needed and his mate did fecondate the egg then I don't know what it is they call "female" that is born every 75 years. If they don't need they can all produce eggs and fecondate them then they are a hermaphrodite species with both male and female sexual organs. In this case also they are not "all male".

What exactly makes someone female in that species? If they don't need them for reproduction why are they call the oposite of male? We cannot really tell the prevalence of those "females" since we don't have the birthrate or any other epidemiological data of the species. But it was implied that "females" are very rare and given the moclan law I assume that it is very unlikely to meet one in a lifetime. So how exactly does Locar knows he is attracted to "female"? Is he attracted to female of other species? How is that so prevalent that it is punishable by death? How is that different from being attracted to a male from another species?

This Mocaln thing make my head hurt. I hate it and it annoys me because I actually care about the subject but the science doesn't work and I can't look pass it...

On the board that vanished into the ether, there was a long, drawn out discussion of species that self-fertilized but could also reproduce sexually. Any science fiction is going to involve fiction, but I subscribe to the idea that all aliens are just allegories for the human condition.

[Happywatcher]

57 minutes ago, rmontro said:

It looks like in this particular future, everyone is too busy congratulating themselves on how "woke" they are to pay much attention to other species.  But yeah, you'd think they'd study the practices of the aliens that they work around, if only for the bits that they can be self righteously indignant at.   😉

The Orville is one of the lowest ranked ships in a fleet of thousands of ships.

I expect in a top 1,000 ranking ship the security chief liaisons with the science department to have protocols for everything and keeps the XO advised. On the Orville she can barely keep up with porn crashing the ship, rain on the bridge, and drunkenness.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

On 2/15/2019 at 8:00 PM, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Loved the 40's music they played in the NYC scene. Would have been so sweet to hear Vera Lynn singing The white Cliffs Of Dover.  Was the first song an Artie Shaw redition? 

I figured out it was Body and Soul ,but I'm not sure who's playing it. What a great tune and wonderful dance number. 

[tv-talk]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:53 AM, Danielg342 said:

In short, if you want to change a mind, you gotta make them feel like they're not being forced to do it. You need to give them something to think about and wrestle with, which doesn't always guarantee success but you'll get further than with a more forceful approach.

Who says McFarlane is trying to change anyone's mind? The show seems to be saying that if you are a virulent homophobe whose also a misogynist- your worldview is trash. I dont see an attempt to change anyone's mind so much as move away from the liberal tendency to be too accepting of other cultures despite what they do. This seems to be McFarlane saying that indeed there are some universal values and if your culture is based upon hating others than your culture sucks.

[rmontro]

39 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

McFarlane saying that indeed there are some universal values and if your culture is based upon hating others than your culture sucks.

Obviously the values are not universal if everyone in the universe doesn't share them.  The Moclan culture may be advanced technologically but primitive from a "tolerance" standpoint.  Even if that is the case, that doesn't mean their culture is based on hate - it may have some unwise elements.  You can say that for any culture though.  How does the Union feel about tolerance of religious beliefs?  Or will they despise or dismiss such as "primitive superstition", because it isn't a favorite cause of McFarlane's (as I suspect)?

Can a culture be too tolerant?  What if they encountered a culture that was tolerant of pedophiles?  What if that culture looked on the Union's with disdain because they viewed it as intolerant?  Now that would be interesting.  

Most cultural views depend on which point in time you are looking at.  Our "universal values" today are much different than they were 80 years ago, say.  They will likely be very different 80 years from now.  

But okay, the Moclan culture sucks.  Now what?  Do we try to have a dialogue with them about it?  What if they're not willing?  What if they want to change things about our culture?  Then what?  Do we break off all contact with them?  Kill them for it (have a war with them)?  Or just say "Your culture sucks" and leave it at that.

[Dobian]

Not much to add to everything that's ben said.  The Orville clearly models a lot of its plots from TNG, but manages to keep things distinctly "Orville" with talking plants and lines like, "...and Bortis almost crashed the ship because of porn."

Edited February 19, 2019 by Dobian

[tv-talk]

10 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Can a culture be too tolerant? 

I think that is McFarlane's entire point- that the Union shouldnt be so tolerant of cultures with abhorrent values like the Moclan's. That there are actual UNIVERSAL values that should be embraced and a culture promotes things like misogyny or homophobia or pedophilia then instead of making the "oh that's just their culture" excuse, people should stand against them. 

Quote

But okay, the Moclan culture sucks.  Now what?  Do we try to have a dialogue with them about it?  What if they're not willing?  What if they want to change things about our culture?  Then what?  Do we break off all contact with them?  Kill them for it (have a war with them)?  Or just say "Your culture sucks" and leave it at that.

My guess is we're pretty clearly headed towards the Moclan's being the Klingons.

[ketose]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

My guess is we're pretty clearly headed towards the Moclan's being the Klingons.

TNG Klingons were not quite the good guys, but were usually worthy of respect.