S07.E11: Past Sins

[statsgirl]

If the stalker is Stan and he takes out some of the dead weight, he will have my everlasting gratitude.

What is it with this show and the justification for killing because you lost a parent?  Both BS and Hackett became multiple murders because their daddy died.  Not to mention, both men were is jobs with a chance of dying; Hackett as a body guard and Quentin as a cop. Did they not prepare children for that? And as others have said, many characters have such bad lives, Diaz had an even worse one though I hate to mention it.  Thea lost her father at 12, did she become a serial killer?

If they wanted to show why Laurel went so bad, they should have played up her guilt more. But she seems to have very little guilt about anything beyond her father's death.

I'm not surprised that DR said that the easiest part of directing the episode was the scenes between Stephen and Emily.  There was barely any Olicity in this episode at all. I understand that splitting them up means that two popular characters, three if you count Diggle, are free to team up with other characters, hoping that the popularity rubs off on them but while the scenes of Felicity with Laurel are fun if eyerolling in the speed of the team-up, Stephen cannot save Dinah and Diggle certainly cannot save Curtis.

I guess this is what Kirk Avocado meant when he said that

Spoiler

we wouldn't believe who Diaz kills (or something like that)

. Too bad killing Curtis was just a fantasy. I mean I wouldn't want Curtis to die like that but I do want him gone.

I loved Felicity tracking BS through her DNA. That's the Felicity I want to see, the tech part, not the "I have to leave my traumatized husband to go save Laurel from herself" part.

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Has Oliver left SCPD by the end of this ep?

No such luck.  He saved the cops in the station from Hackett so he's a hero again. I'm getting whiplash.

The idea that Laurel is the most popular DA in 10 years while 77% of the residents want Oliver fired from the SCPD is so ridiculous, there are no words. Nice fantasy life there, Tonya.

[Simba122504]

Remember how on SV we hated Clark claiming everything was his fault? Including the polar vortex happening now. Anyway, we hated it then and we hate it now. Stop it! We're on S7 there's no way this should still be a thing. I'm already tired of Oliver working for the SCPD. But episode kept my attention. 

[Mellowyellow]

Ugh I gathered all my will to watch this piece of crap (with a lot of fast forwarding!).

WTF is with the Felicity/BS friendship! Ewwwww. So much EWWWWWWWW.

I can see Felicity being polite to BS or even feeling like she needs to do her a few favours but nights out together and taking an active interest in BS's life? She's all loving and giving BS pep talks. WTF Tonya you talentless hack. I'm gonna have to go with Felicity has turned into SAINT Felicity to stomach this one cuz IT MAKES NO FFING sense! 

EBR and KC scenes are actually not bad from an acting/chemistry perspective but seriously WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless they are setting up for a massive conflict or fall out in a later episode and this is Arrow's run of the mill "Lets take the cheap road and make them besties so we can do a SHOCKING BS goes bad ep later" I do not understand how we have come here. Well I do cuz these writers are hacks but still! WTF!

I skipped all the Dinah scenes! She's so tiresome in a really drab, sucks the joy out of life way I just cannot watch her.

***

Nice things I have to say:

Love Felicity's clothes! I am totally going to try and make pants work for me! LOVED the red pants with a bow and that red polka dot top! So so so cute!

EBR's hair colour is gorgeous on her too! 

[cambridgeguy]

For a show called Arrow there doesn't seem to be much Arrowing going on - it seems like Oliver has spent more time in the Flash suit than he has the Arrow suit.  Obviously the prison stint curtailed his activities but he's out, so get to it!  It's like they're trying to emulate the Adventures of Superman and have the hero only don the costume for brief periods.  Oliver the de facto police detective just isn't the same.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

On the positive side, I didn't notice anything really off about the directing choices and I understood Diaz better than I can every remember so good for DR.  

Maybe David told him to ENUNCIATE?

7 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Remember how on SV we hated Clark claiming everything was his fault? Including the polar vortex happening now. Anyway, we hated it then and we hate it now. Stop it! We're on S7 there's no way this should still be a thing. I'm already tired of Oliver working for the SCPD. But episode kept my attention. 

At least on Smallville, Clark had Chloe, who was his anchor, his best friend through season 8, until Allison Mack left the show. The fact that the show runners fucked with the fans is a rant for another thread. @BkWurm1 knows of what I speaketh.

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

For a show called Arrow there doesn't seem to be much Arrowing going on - it seems like Oliver has spent more time in the Flash suit than he has the Arrow suit.  Obviously the prison stint curtailed his activities but he's out, so get to it!  It's like they're trying to emulate the Adventures of Superman and have the hero only don the costume for brief periods.  Oliver the de facto police detective just isn't the same.

He's no Batman, the best detective ever. BUT, they've also dumbed him down. I still remember season one Oliver--he was smart, knew how to detect, use the computer, mostly. And had that cache of...stuff in his metal trunk. What happened to that Oliver?

Of course I haven't watched this episode yet (had to work late), but I'll get around to it.

[way2interested]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

He's no Batman, the best detective ever. BUT, they've also dumbed him down. I still remember season one Oliver--he was smart, knew how to detect, use the computer, mostly. And had that cache of...stuff in his metal trunk. What happened to that Oliver?

Of course I haven't watched this episode yet (had to work late), but I'll get around to it.

Technically he did do smart detective work in the episode, investigating and deductive reasoning stuff (computer stuff is a moot point since the pilot screening audience didn't like it and that's why Felicity was introduced in the first place). The only problem is the story/mystery type isn't compelling enough to really showcase his talents. It's like Oliver's skills as a negotiator/speaker. Technically, he's actually very good (423 to Star City, 513 to the shooter even though it was a dumb episode, 711 he got the cops on his side, etc.), it's just that they kind of feel tacked on and don't feel as adequately highlighted as they should be. 

[tv echo]

Cheers to DR for doing such a great job as a first-time director (especially given the script that he had to work with)! Cheers also to the nice Olicity scenes. 

Jeers to the Arrow writers for the Curtis 'death' fake-out.  Jeers also for stealing a plot beat line from Marvel's Avengers, when Black Widow Curtis says "We thank ARGUS thanks you for your cooperation" to Loki Diaz after tricking him into revealing information.

Also, Arrow continues to be inconsistent within the same episode. So the majority of Star City residents don't like Oliver because he was a vigilante and want him to stop working for the SCPD.

TV News Anchor (on computer screen): "As Star City's newest kidnapper continues to elude the police, there have been renewed calls demanding Oliver Queen step down. A recent poll showed that as many as 77% of Star City citizens would support his removal from the SC -"

At the same time, however, the majority of Star City residents like Laurel as D.A., even though she was a vigilante? And did the Arrow writers really write the following dialogue with a straight face (without laughing)?

TV News Anchor: "... including a start on pro bono cases at CNRI, the question as to whether Laurel Lance was the right person to take over as D.A. was put to rest after a recent poll indicates she is the most popular D.A. in the past 10 years. The district attorney's position is not an on-the-job training type. It requires experience to lead, train, and ... It is a must to know criminal law inside and out..."

Now, granted, the previous two D.A.s were a serial killer (Adrian Chase) and a corrupt guy on Diaz's payroll (Sam Armand), but what about the D.A. before them? This double standard for two former vigilantes makes no sense.

As for the Felicity and E2 Laurel friendship, I can only roll my eyes so far.

Felicity (to E2 Laurel): "It's - you haven't had a problem talking about the dozens of other people that you have killed. Um, so why - oh, why keep this one a secret? If someone had killed my dad, I would want revenge, too."

ETA: Could this be foreshadowing? Does someone actually kill Felicity's father, The Calculator, in the future?

Edited January 29, 2019 by tv echo

[quarks]

22 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Now, granted, the previous two D.A.s were a serial killer (Adrian Chase) and a corrupt guy on Diaz's payroll (Sam Armand, but what about the D.A. before them? This double standard for two former vigilantes makes no sense.

The DAs/assistant DAs before that either skipped town during Exciting Events (for example, episode 305, where the DA was nowhere to be found and Original Laurel had to step up) or got violently sick during major showcase trials (for example, episode 207, where Original Laurel again had to step up), or got kidnapped (seasons 1 and 2), or were inexplicably absent while criminals were cheerfully roaming the city while Oliver was "dead" and Original Laurel was jumping on and off helicopters (season 3), or were useless in a hostage situation forcing wealthy billionaires to create robot suits and head off to a life of time travelling (season 3) or were clearly incapable of coordinating legal prosecutions to remove criminals from the streets (start of season 4) and then skipped town again when things got bad again (end of season 4), or were susceptible to blackmail (season 2) and sudden death (seasons 2, 3, 4 and 5). Seasons 1 and 2 even made a point of noting that the DAs office wasn't following up on crimes/was remarkably ineffective (thus why Original Laurel was trying to help people out at CRNI), presumably in part because throughout seasons 1 - 5 DAs kept getting murdered which presumably caused at least one or two staffing problems, and because Malcolm Merlyn and Slade between them managed to corrupt the city's criminal justice program. Arguably, the ineptness/corruption/inherent danger of the Starling/Star City DAs office has been the most consistent part of Arrow's entire run.

In fact, the only time that the DAs office has been shown to be at all effective was for two glorious minutes during episode 301 and then again at the start of this season. Original Laurel was an assistant DA during episode 301 and Not-Laurel has been the DA this season, so I can see Star City residents thinking she's great in comparison. I mean, she's not dead and no one has kidnapped her this season! By Star City DA standards, this is pretty amazing. 

[apinknightmare]

40 minutes ago, tv echo said:

TV News Anchor: "... including a start on pro bono cases at CNRI, the question as to whether Laurel Lance was the right person to take over as D.A. was put to rest after a recent poll indicates she is the most popular D.A. in the past 10 years. The district attorney's position is not an on-the-job training type. It requires experience to lead, train, and ... It is a must to know criminal law inside and out..."

Tonya, as she wrote this:

[bijoux]

So very, very boring and senseless. Is part of EBR’s new contract control over her costumes? I can’t remember the last time I saw Felicity in a short flouncy dress with heels. Also, what’s with KC’s styling. Her shoulders looked wider than SA’s during their interview and her E2 flashback looked to be taking place in the 1940’s judging by her outfit and hairstyle.

Nice how they have Oliver going on about transparency while BS is at his side impersonating his dead friend. But I guess that’s okay, she’s redeemed. After all, she was only about to choke a guy until Felicity told her to stop. Felicity and Dinah being happy she actually killed the E2 version of the guy really needs to be seen to be believed.

So, last week there was hardy har har about Oliver being the rookie, this week he’s framed as being the lead in the little team comprised of him, Dinah and Officer Bad Taste in Men.

Are all the characters in Curtis’ virtual reality? Because so many things are out of whack. I will give Curtis this, him being at ARGUS made sense for the first time with implanting bombs into people. And he made a lot of sense in the middle of the episode. Plus, he actually give a second’s thought to Oliver and Felicity even if their months long ordeal, which included their adolescent son being targeted rated below Curtis’ stab wound. Still more than Dig offered. But Curtis still pissed me off barging into Lyla’s (his actual boss) sensitive interrogation, and then yammering about doing things his own way at ARGUS at the end there. Um, just no.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Who is this pod person they are turning Felicity into?  What a boring bad episode.  Katie Cassidy still can't act. 

I liked the frowny face emoticon she used when she thought Dinah wasn’t willing to help. On par with whatever it was Emiko was pulling when she was angry at Oliver in the beginning.

[apinknightmare]

I honestly couldn’t tell you a single thing that happened with ARGUS last night. What’s the Suicide Squad adjacent group’s deal? Are they still around?

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I honestly couldn’t tell you a single thing that happened with ARGUS last night. What’s the Suicide Squad adjacent group’s deal? Are they still around?

Yeah, Diggle is still keeping the group open so they can take down the Dante guy while Curtis says that's a gateway to never shutting down the group.

[tangerine95]

I actually enjoyed the Felicity Black Siren scenes in the beginning of the season.They had a reason to team up,Felicity didn't totally gloss over her crimes or fully trust her.This  was a mess tho.Felicity suddenly went all supportive bff,acting like they've known each other for years,blaming the sad backstory for the crimes,just generally buying into BS as a good person now.It felt very unearned and ooc for Felicity imo.

I'm fine with redemption arcs,I like them most of the time but a redemption arc mean suffering consequences(not necessarily jail),showing remorse,struggling to make up for your actions and earn that redemption in the eyes of the audience.BS gets a blank slate for her crimes by pretending to be Laurel(which by itself is a pretty horrible thing to do,take over a dead woman's identity),she shows remorse once for Vince(not enough for someone who killed and took joy in it multiple times),she gets very fast support and trust from Dinah and Felicity(even tho she killed Dinah's bf,tried to kill Felicity multiple times,tried to kill her husband and actually had a part in William losing his mother),she doesn't struggle to make things right(she's put in the DA position which allows them to say she's going something good without having to bother showing it or her struggling),she's pretty much better off than before(gets a nice new life,a great job she didn't even get education for and new heroic friends).

I didn't really care about the Emiko stuff,to me she's a Thea replacement only less interesting because she's a total copy of Oliver himself.

Oliver needs to stop working with the police and soon.It's so boring and him and Dinah are the least dynamic scene partners ever imo.Also I hate the way they've been dressing him.

[tv echo]

If you're interested, DR gave a lot of interesting details about his experience directing this episode in a Variety interview, including explaining the scene where Oliver tells the cop to shoot him if he wants...

Quote

Oliver had been learning new truths about his father — such as the fact that he had a secret family — and he exhibited a “heartbroken-ness” when unraveling what his father did, Ramsey says. In this episode, he learned his father had murdered a man who worked for him and “there had to be a certain amount of exhaustion with this and a certain amount of really being heartbroken that continued what we saw in Episode 10.”

“There’s a certain amount of resignation that Stephen portrays through it,” Ramsey says, noting the scene between Oliver and Sam (Luke Camilleri), the murdered man’s son. “And we had a nice little conversation about, ‘At what point do you get to when someone’s holding a gun on you where you say, “If you have to shoot, it’s OK”?’ Where is a man like Oliver Queen, emotionally, to say that and mean it? He doesn’t try to disarm. He says, ‘This is your choice.'”

Edited January 29, 2019 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Wow, I actually thought Oliver was buying time for Dinah to do whatever she did with the power. I don't even understand what Hackett did, but my attention was really wandering during those scenes. Nice to have him resigned after just getting out what was supposed to be a life sentence. 

[calliope1975]

I'm so beyond over Oliver taking responsibility for others' actions. Ben is Glory. Glory is Ben. I GET it. Move on already.

[Cekrypton1]

"So then Dinah [looks at notes] shoots the electric transformer with a gun and bullets and then [flips through notes] ah ha, yes, the lights come back on. Do I have that right?"

[Aeryn13]

So, after everything, two thirds of those ungrateful cretins living in Star City hate Oliver but DA Black Siren is their absolutely favourite? OMG, what`s next, will they vote Diaz for Mayor?

Also, why does Diggle appear to be possessed by the spirit of Amanda Waller? If Curtis!!! is the voice of reason, you done fucked up.   

And while I liked the chemistry between "Laurel" and Felicity earlier in the Season, this insta-friendship is insane. I mean, okay, her actual friends, especially Diggle, were such asshats and Laurel gave her the time of day when Oliver was in prison, Felicity probably feels so grateful, she has convinced herself she is 100% on the "yay, Laurel" train. So she even wines (and dines) her now. At least with Oliver`s previous friends who turns evil later (and then good again), he had a positive relationship with them first. Their first impression of Siren was that of a villain.

[Mary0360]

Given Tonya's tweet about the Bechel Test earlier in the season I'm guessing her instant gravy friendship between BS and Laurel is the writers very basic ideas on feminism in the show, no matter how unearned or occ it is. Yes they should have more female friendships and interaction on the show, but it should be between characters who have actually earnt their relationships and not to justify and give tacit approval to a murderers actions.

 

Having said that Id much rather see the whole Dinah/Oliver partnership die a quick horrible death first. Because let's not forget that Dinah is also prancing around acting like the BFF to a man she was willing to keep in jail and was up until his release "anti Vigilante" ergo anti Oliver and that's all not mentioned for the sake of selling that she is his "partner" even though their partnership is also entirely unearned. And worst they also have anti chemistry and dont act well in scenes together where as at least Emily and Katie do bounce off one another enough to make scenes some what entertaining if you ignore the lack of logic.

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Ugh I gathered all my will to watch this piece of crap (with a lot of fast forwarding!).

WTF is with the Felicity/BS friendship! Ewwwww. So much EWWWWWWWW.

I can see Felicity being polite to BS or even feeling like she needs to do her a few favours but nights out together and taking an active interest in BS's life? She's all loving and giving BS pep talks. WTF Tonya you talentless hack. I'm gonna have to go with Felicity has turned into SAINT Felicity to stomach this one cuz IT MAKES NO FFING sense! 

EBR and KC scenes are actually not bad from an acting/chemistry perspective but seriously WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless they are setting up for a massive conflict or fall out in a later episode and this is Arrow's run of the mill "Lets take the cheap road and make them besties so we can do a SHOCKING BS goes bad ep later" I do not understand how we have come here. Well I do cuz these writers are hacks but still! WTF!

 

***

 

Here's my reasoning for Felicity's behavior with Laurel. I have worked to get to this understanding.  

 The way I see it, Laurel was there for Felicity when she needed it and you could even say expressed some real regret over crossing the killing lines when she pulled Felicity back from the edge when she was ready to risk torturing whatever her names is (Silencer?) to death.    And Laurel being DA is what helped enable getting Oliver out of jail. So for the help she gave Felicity and after she has expressed some sort of regret about ever crossing those the line into killing and how that changed her, Felicity feels there is a chance that Laurel really is trying to live up to Quentin's hopes for her and Felicity feels she owes Laurel the full benefit of the doubt about having changed and wanting to further change.   And for Felicity, that means going all in when it comes to displaying her faith in her.  Not because she fully trusts her, clearly she doesn't since she was tracking Laurel's DNA, but because for Felicity, a reformed Laurel is now a goal and the best way Felicity sees about helping, is giving her the full press support of her friendship.  Felicity doesn't really do much half measures often.        

Yes, BS has a pretty high body count and they were innocents.  I don't believe Felicity has forgotten that but Felicity has always been very pragmatic about what can't be changed and doesn't actively hold the past against people that have convinced her they want to be better and can be better. 

She didn't hold the murders Sara committed for the LoA against her and we know Sara did things that left her racked with guilt.  With Nyssa she was more irritated over the sister wives jokes than her assasin ways either.  And Oliver as the hood had a very large body count (in Oliver's case of course he was trying to do good but she was VERY quickly able to see past his kills to the good he was doing without much more than trusting her gut feelings about him) and by season two she was also asking, what's the big deal about you killing now?  The question wasn't about not caring about murder but asking what had changed.  And that was how it was with Laurel in this episode.  It's not that she thought the people Laurel had killed didn't matter, but Laurel's past crimes just weren't really the topic.  

  And frankly while I believe Felicity would have executed Diaz and slept like a baby with no guilt the rest of her life. I DON'T believe she would have murdered someone that had killed her father in a drunk driving accident but I can believe that she would under the specific circumstances down play that death to get Laurel to open up more about the real issues that seemed to be driving her to backslide in her vow to be a better person. The past remains the past and Felicity can't change that, but she's focused on repaying Laurel by, as someone upthread so eloquently put it, being her emotional support animal.    

But again, as proved by her tracking her after Laurel displayed suspicious behavior at the bar, she doesn't trust her and Felicity has made it her responsibility to not only keep Laurel from backsliding but also from hurting others.  Her support doesn't come blindly.  

Addressing hanging at the bar.  This was framed as celebrating how much "Quentin would be proud of you." And yeah, I'm sure that would have been true.  So since Laurel has claimed she's going to be good now because of Quentin, then supporting any positive results of that vow may look like trying to be BFF's but it's also about underlining and reaffirming Laurel's motivation and giving her positive reinforcement so she continues to move forward. 

Dead dad is not an excuse for becoming a serial killer for hire.  But again, Felicity is not in the business of passing judgment on those that are trying to reform or do good.  Felicity was right to tell Laurel that she wasn't responsible for her father's death even if I'm majorly side eying a kid shouting "I hate you" at a parent for merely forgetting a birthday cake (but I'm also side eyeing any parent that wouldn't automatically turn around to get it.  I'm not sure Quentin had to be pushed though so thats back to judging bratty little Laurel but kids say stupid things sometimes)

  At this point, there is more benefit in helping Laurel get past misplaced guilt that while was no excuse for the life she chose, certainly didn't help her be an upstanding citizen.  Next Felicity showed Laurel how to handle her problem without resorting to her old murderous tricks.  She showed her another way, a legal way.  And for Felicity, that means the Laurel project is still heading in the right direction and a non evil Laurel that is also the city's DA is much better to have as a friend and it also honors a fallen friend, Quentin.  So going at Laurel from a very positive stance makes sense.  

Part of Felicity's goal is to gain Laurel's trust and friendship so that their connection is also another line of defense against going back to who she was. But I also believe that if Black Siren ever full scale returned and there was no childhood trauma to help at least mitigate her out of control actions, that Felicity would not be all hugs and sunshine.  

It's not fair that BS gets off with no repercussions to all the death she brought but Oliver and Co had already accepted this as a necessary evil.  If she actually can be kept on the mostly straight and narrow, it makes that terrible fact just a little easier to live with.  Not a reparation but at least making sure no one else is harmed by her.  And short of killing her, how else can they control her?

Plus I think Felicit wants something good to have come out of Oliver's time in jail.  

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Maybe David told him to ENUNCIATE?

At least on Smallville, Clark had Chloe, who was his anchor, his best friend through season 8, until Allison Mack left the show. The fact that the show runners fucked with the fans is a rant for another thread. @BkWurm1 knows of what I speaketh.

 

Allison Mack (pre crazy cult stuff) was there through season 9 but they just barely used her with Clark in season 9

2 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Having said that Id much rather see the whole Dinah/Oliver partnership die a quick horrible death first. Because let's not forget that Dinah is also prancing around acting like the BFF to a man she was willing to keep in jail and was up until his release "anti Vigilante" ergo anti Oliver and that's all not mentioned for the sake of selling that she is his "partner" even though their partnership is also entirely unearned. And worst they also have anti chemistry and dont act well in scenes together where as at least Emily and Katie do bounce off one another enough to make scenes some what entertaining if you ignore the lack of logic.

I second this whole heartedly.  And lets not forget that despite a tattoo to always have each other's back, in the future DInah isn't sure she should trust anything about William because he's Oliver's son.  Yeah, their friendship remains a sham for the next twenty years.  

Edited January 30, 2019 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

Alright! I'll accept that @BkWurm1

 

Do you ever think we put too much thought into these things? That maybe the writers are just chugging down beers and pizza while they eeny meeny miney mo how to give BS a plot cuz contractually she needs one this ep?

Now explain to me why that idiot Oliver was totes fine with being shot. Does he not care about his wife and son?

I went for a walk out in lightening last week (wanted to meet my step requirements for that day) and the boys gave me hell. I didn't even get far since the storm was so severe so I went home and had two angry boys confronting me about how I was happy to die (from being struck by lightening) and not take care of them. 

I'm beyond offended that Oliver is pulling the "I don't care if I die" shit again in this ep. Gawd should I just be thankful he only regresses every season and not every episode like Jessica Huang?

[way2interested]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Now explain to me why that idiot Oliver was totes fine with being shot. Does he not care about his wife and son?

It's weird. I never got that implication until I read that people online said that's what was happening in the scene. It never struck me as a "I don't care if I die" thing, but just something Oliver was saying to try to make the cop (who was in a life or death situation inadvertently because of Oliver) more secure in the extremely stressful situation, since again Oliver has been established as a really good speaker. This is then supported because the cop returned the trust to Oliver and didn't shoot him. So it had nothing to do with regressing and more to do with showing the city and the SCPD that they could trust him because he was willing to go directly towards a gun for them (he's done that repeatedly in the past, but hey the city needs a reminder now that Oliver's out and about again). 

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Alright! I'll accept that @BkWurm1

 

Do you ever think we put too much thought into these things? That maybe the writers are just chugging down beers and pizza while they eeny meeny miney mo how to give BS a plot cuz contractually she needs one this ep?

Now explain to me why that idiot Oliver was totes fine with being shot. Does he not care about his wife and son?

I went for a walk out in lightening last week (wanted to meet my step requirements for that day) and the boys gave me hell. I didn't even get far since the storm was so severe so I went home and had two angry boys confronting me about how I was happy to die (from being struck by lightening) and not take care of them. 

I'm beyond offended that Oliver is pulling the "I don't care if I die" shit again in this ep. Gawd should I just be thankful he only regresses every season and not every episode like Jessica Huang?

Someone should give him hell for that but Felicity wasn't there and even Dinah was not in the building so even though I doubt she would have said anything, she doesn't even have the chance to fail at being a friend.  Only the other police heard and a lot of them probably thought like I wanted to think, that he was just stalling for time.  

But per DR the motivation was Oliver giving into his overwhelming sorrow about how awful he dad was.  I guess there's a good chance between the trauma of prison, what the Dr did on top of that, and whatever went down with the Monitor during the crossover that he is actually fighting depression.  Which is very sad but the thing with his dad that really sent him on his backslide at least can be mitigated with the kind of hopeful place Emiko left their possible relationship.  I guess he has been through enough in a short period of time where I can accept he'd realistically have this reaction in a moment of extreme stress.  He wasn't trying to die but he was fatalistic.  I don't see it as a comment on how he feels about his kid and wife in the long run even if being upset on their behalf was my reaction as well.  I have hope he will work on fighting this dark spot he's in.  He was already smiling more at the end.  :D

[Mellowyellow]

17 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It's weird. I never got that implication until I read that people online said that's what was happening in the scene. It never struck me as a "I don't care if I die" thing, but just something Oliver was saying to try to make the cop (who was in a life or death situation inadvertently because of Oliver) more secure in the extremely stressful situation, since again Oliver has been established as a really good speaker. This is then supported because the cop returned the trust to Oliver and didn't shoot him. So it had nothing to do with regressing and more to do with showing the city and the SCPD that they could trust him because he was willing to go directly towards a gun for them (he's done that repeatedly in the past, but hey the city needs a reminder now that Oliver's out and about again). 

I actually thought the same as you when I watched it myself and figured it was a difference of opinion.

But DR confirmed the resignation that everyone was talking about. Unless this is DR's personal head canon and not the writer's intention then I'm concerned and offended Oliver is getting back on that merry go round again. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm concerned and offended Oliver is getting back on that merry go round again. 

I don't feel like this is an ongoing trending direction at least for Oliver (right now at least, who knows what plot points they will push next season)

[janeta]

Ok, possibly dumb question: I only just got to see the first few minutes of the ep; what happend to the tv interviewer? In the opening he was fine, but in the final interview he was all beaten up.  Was he the guy the electrocuter guy took hostage? TIA

[way2interested]

25 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

But DR confirmed the resignation that everyone was talking about. Unless this is DR's personal head canon and not the writer's intention then I'm concerned and offended Oliver is getting back on that merry go round again. 

That's the thing though is that there wasn't anything in the script that established that. The script established that Oliver wanted to win their trust ultimately no matter what, even by giving up his job. Part of me thinks that's just something he and SA came up with as motivation for the scene as they were breaking it down.

[BkWurm1]

34 minutes ago, janeta said:

Ok, possibly dumb question: I only just got to see the first few minutes of the ep; what happend to the tv interviewer? In the opening he was fine, but in the final interview he was all beaten up.  Was he the guy the electrocuter guy took hostage? TIA

Yeah, the son of Oliver's Father's bodyguard who his dad had shot before shooting himself took the interviewer, mad that Oliver was being portrayed as a hero when he was "the reason" the bodyguard guy died.  There might have been other reasons but it wasn't a plot point that held my attention.  

16 minutes ago, way2interested said:

That's the thing though is that there wasn't anything in the script that established that. The script established that Oliver wanted to win their trust ultimately no matter what, even by giving up his job. Part of me thinks that's just something he and SA came up with as motivation for the scene as they were breaking it down.

I was thinking that too but in DR's interview with Variety, he mentions working closely with the writer.  Here's the quote:

To give each piece of the story the appropriate weight, he says he worked “hand-in-hand” with the episode’s writer, Onalee Hunter Hughes, who was on set every day.

So now I'm not sure if it came right from the writer or not.  One thing that DR got wrong was thinking that Oliver had JUST found out about his father shooting his bodyguard.  Or at least that's what i took from this comment:  

Ramsey says. In this episode, he [Oliver] learned his father had murdered a man who worked for him and “there had to be a certain amount of exhaustion with this and a certain amount of really being heartbroken that continued what we saw in Episode 10.”

Oliver of course has always known.  I don't think his father's final secret being exposed would have triggered him as much as finding out he'd killed someone else so right there DR's reasoning was off.  But I get what he was trying to do even if it ignores a lot of Oliver' hard fought understanding that he is not responsible for his father's actions.  My head canon is the "therapy" he went through in prison messed him up again some.  

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So now I'm not sure if it came right from the writer or not.  One thing that DR got wrong was thinking that Oliver had JUST found out about his father shooting his bodyguard

Yeah, that's why I think it was a feeling motivation for the tone of the scene rather than a literal interpretation of what's going on in the plot (like it having to do with the Moniter or him regressing or whatever), since factual it's wrong. Basically I kind of think it's a case of over thinking it.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, that's why I think it was a feeling motivation for the tone of the scene rather than a literal interpretation of what's going on in the plot (like it having to do with the Moniter or him regressing or whatever), since factual it's wrong. Basically I kind of think it's a case of over thinking it.

I prefer this.  I'd rather not have the clutter of next year's crossover already start to mess with our show.  

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Here's my reasoning for Felicity's behavior with Laurel. I have worked to get to this understanding.  

 The way I see it, Laurel was there for Felicity when she needed it and you could even say expressed some real regret over crossing the killing lines when she pulled Felicity back from the edge when she was ready to risk torturing whatever her names is (Silencer?) to death.    And Laurel being DA is what helped enable getting Oliver out of jail. So for the help she gave Felicity and after she has expressed some sort of regret about ever crossing those the line into killing and how that changed her, Felicity feels there is a chance that Laurel really is trying to live up to Quentin's hopes for her and Felicity feels she owes Laurel the full benefit of the doubt about having changed and wanting to further change.   And for Felicity, that means going all in when it comes to displaying her faith in her.  Not because she fully trusts her, clearly she doesn't since she was tracking Laurel's DNA, but because for Felicity, a reformed Laurel is now a goal and the best way Felicity sees about helping, is giving her the full press support of her friendship.  Felicity doesn't really do much half measures often.        

Yes, BS has a pretty high body count and they were innocents.  I don't believe Felicity has forgotten that but Felicity has always been very pragmatic about what can't be changed and doesn't actively hold the past against people that have convinced her they want to be better and can be better. 

She didn't hold the murders Sara committed for the LoA against her and we know Sara did things that left her racked with guilt.  With Nyssa she was more irritated over the sister wives jokes than her assasin ways either.  And Oliver as the hood had a very large body count (in Oliver's case of course he was trying to do good but she was VERY quickly able to see past his kills to the good he was doing without much more than trusting her gut feelings about him) and by season two she was also asking, what's the big deal about you killing now?  The question wasn't about not caring about murder but asking what had changed.  And that was how it was with Laurel in this episode.  It's not that she thought the people Laurel had killed didn't matter, but Laurel's past crimes just weren't really the topic.  

  And frankly while I believe Felicity would have executed Diaz and slept like a baby with no guilt the rest of her life. I DON'T believe she would have murdered someone that had killed her father in a drunk driving accident but I can believe that she would under the specific circumstances down play that death to get Laurel to open up more about the real issues that seemed to be driving her to backslide in her vow to be a better person. The past remains the past and Felicity can't change that, but she's focused on repaying Laurel by, as someone upthread so eloquently put it, being her emotional support animal.    

But again, as proved by her tracking her after Laurel displayed suspicious behavior at the bar, she doesn't trust her and Felicity has made it her responsibility to not only keep Laurel from backsliding but also from hurting others.  Her support doesn't come blindly.  

Addressing hanging at the bar.  This was framed as celebrating how much "Quentin would be proud of you." And yeah, I'm sure that would have been true.  So since Laurel has claimed she's going to be good now because of Quentin, then supporting any positive results of that vow may look like trying to be BFF's but it's also about underlining and reaffirming Laurel's motivation and giving her positive reinforcement so she continues to move forward. 

Dead dad is not an excuse for becoming a serial killer for hire.  But again, Felicity is not in the business of passing judgment on those that are trying to reform or do good.  Felicity was right to tell Laurel that she wasn't responsible for her father's death even if I'm majorly side eying a kid shouting "I hate you" at a parent for merely forgetting a birthday cake (but I'm also side eyeing any parent that wouldn't automatically turn around to get it.  I'm not sure Quentin had to be pushed though so thats back to judging bratty little Laurel but kids say stupid things sometimes)

  At this point, there is more benefit in helping Laurel get past misplaced guilt that while was no excuse for the life she chose, certainly didn't help her be an upstanding citizen.  Next Felicity showed Laurel how to handle her problem without resorting to her old murderous tricks.  She showed her another way, a legal way.  And for Felicity, that means the Laurel project is still heading in the right direction and a non evil Laurel that is also the city's DA is much better to have as a friend and it also honors a fallen friend, Quentin.  So going at Laurel from a very positive stance makes sense.  

Part of Felicity's goal is to gain Laurel's trust and friendship so that their connection is also another line of defense against going back to who she was. But I also believe that if Black Siren ever full scale returned and there was no childhood trauma to help at least mitigate her out of control actions, that Felicity would not be all hugs and sunshine.  

It's not fair that BS gets off with no repercussions to all the death she brought but Oliver and Co had already accepted this as a necessary evil.  If she actually can be kept on the mostly straight and narrow, it makes that terrible fact just a little easier to live with.  Not a reparation but at least making sure no one else is harmed by her.  And short of killing her, how else can they control her?

Plus I think Felicit wants something good to have come out of Oliver's time in jail.  

Allison Mack (pre crazy cult stuff) was there through season 9 but they just barely used her with Clark in season 9

I second this whole heartedly.  And lets not forget that despite a tattoo to always have each other's back, in the future DInah isn't sure she should trust anything about William because he's Oliver's son.  Yeah, their friendship remains a sham for the next twenty years.  

The thing is I want to watch this episode because you put more thought in to the characters motivations, unfortunately the episode I watched was cheap and lazy story telling. They could have put that effort into the storyline but that would require them to put in a modicum of effort. Unfortunately I think it was simple as, we need to show Laurel is good, let's have Felicity say she is, let's have them be friends because feminism, Laurel went evil because she was sad over her birthday cake, but underneath that 'terrible' trauma she's really good hearted.

 

I mean they pretty much seem done  with Laurels redemption. "She's good now. Felicitys not holding all those murders against her. Let's move on guys."- The writers basically.

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Allison Mack (pre crazy cult stuff) was there through season 9 but they just barely used her with Clark in season 9

Right. When they did the light switch to comics! and tried to convince me that Clark only ever looked at "Lois" "that way" or never looked at Chloe that way. PURE BS. And I'll stop there.

[Chaser]

11 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

The thing is I want to watch this episode because you put more thought in to the characters motivations, unfortunately the episode I watched was cheap and lazy story telling. They could have put that effort into the storyline but that would require them to put in a modicum of effort. Unfortunately I think it was simple as, we need to show Laurel is good, let's have Felicity say she is, let's have them be friends because feminism, Laurel went evil because she was sad over her birthday cake, but underneath that 'terrible' trauma she's really good hearted.

 

I mean they pretty much seem done  with Laurels redemption. "She's good now. Felicitys not holding all those murders against her. Let's move on guys."- The writers basically.

On any other show, Laurel getting the red dedemption bow and BFF card in ep 11 would be a big red flag that the redemption wouldn’t be permanent. 

Jbuffy has a theory that the reason they are pushing the Felicity and Laurel friendship is because when BS goes bad there needs to be some big emotional connection since Quentin is gone. I think that’s pretty solid. On any other show. 

I get the feeling that ‘Black Siren’ is done and Laurel is now the crack shot DA who pops in every once in awhile. 

[Mellowyellow]

I hope they don't make Felicity crazy and exhibit a bunch of insane creepy behaviour to save "Laurel" like they did to Quentin last season. 

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Chaser said:

On any other show, Laurel getting the red dedemption bow and BFF card in ep 11 would be a big red flag that the redemption wouldn’t be permanent. 

Jbuffy has a theory that the reason they are pushing the Felicity and Laurel friendship is because when BS goes bad there needs to be some big emotional connection since Quentin is gone. I think that’s pretty solid. On any other show. 

I get the feeling that ‘Black Siren’ is done and Laurel is now the crack shot DA who pops in every once in awhile. 

That's my feeling as well though they might still have her be grey at times.  And with the mention of E2 again, my hope that she moves back to E2 to make up for her past increases.  Then we'd still get emotional payoff from her new connection to Felicity aka BS would have someone sad she was going but proud and all that.  

FYI, someone upthread was wondering why E2 Laurel in her mini flashback was dressed like she was in the 1940's.  E2 Earth leans steam punk and noir.  

[apinknightmare]

9 hours ago, Chaser said:

Jbuffy has a theory that the reason they are pushing the Felicity and Laurel friendship is because when BS goes bad there needs to be some big emotional connection since Quentin is gone. I think that’s pretty solid. On any other show. 

I agree with you. Laurel's transition into the good life has been so wrinkle-free and easy that I can't think of a single reason that she'd be compelled to go bad again. Anyone who threatened to out her as a doppelgänger would have the monumental task of proving it, and anyone who wanted to out her for not being a real lawyer would have her high polling numbers and miraculous legal expertise to contend with. All her real enemies are on another earth, so she's mostly safe from them and the only people who really hate her are anti-vigilante. She shouldn't be easily swayed with money since she has a good paying job thanks to stealing E-1 Laurel's life. Unless we find out she's been playing them all along and somehow working for Dante for...some reason, I don't see why they'd have her go bad again. But this is Arrow, so I guess they could pull a twist out of their asses. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I'm still hoping that they reveal that she's gone bad in the future only to do a switcheroo and that she helped fake Felicitys death (cause we all know they aint gonna kill her). Or have her go undercover to get more information about Dante where she is challenged to show that she has changed. 

[insomniadreams88]

I think what Arrow needs to stop doing is having other people intervene and stop Laurel from killing/hurting people. Dinah did it with the judge, and now Felicity in this episode. Stop telling us that Laurel has changed without showing she has on her own, without others basically making the choice for her by stopping her from doing something.

What they should have done instead in this episode is have Felicity show up after Laurel decides she's not going to hurt the guy she thinks she already killed for killing her father. Have Laurel take a step back, maybe even threaten to use her job to get him put in prison for life or something, and then reveal Felicity is there. Maybe even have Felicity be there long enough to see this to later go, "See, you stopped yourself, etc." 

[statsgirl]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I think what Arrow needs to stop doing is having other people intervene and stop Laurel from killing/hurting people. Dinah did it with the judge, and now Felicity in this episode. Stop telling us that Laurel has changed without showing she has on her own, without others basically making the choice for her by stopping her from doing something.

THIS.  If they want to sell Laurel as redeemed, then she's the one who has to show it, not other people doing it for her.

Going back over DR's interviews, I was struck by this

Quote

Any action sequences that you were kind of impressed you pulled off?
Ramsey: The Ghost Initiative. I think it really worked in this episode. I think the Ghost Initiative, aka Suicide Squad, really has a huge action sequence there that really works in this episode. I'm very proud of the episode, because both the character development, the acting, and I think the action really work. Both of those things are equal characters on our show. They're characters, the actors and the action. Both of those are equally significant characters on our show, and I think both of those work in this episode.

As many complaints  as I have about the episode, I do think that it was a good one for DR to get his feet wet on.  There was plot points, there was emotion for several characters (even if they walked back Curtis being killed) and there a few good action sequences. I can see how from DR's viewpoint, it was a good episode.

[Cthulhudrew]

Curtis: "Ghost Initiative is just another name for Suicide Sq..."

Lyla (cuts him off)

Yep, guess that's tacit confirmation they can't even use the name "Suicide Squad" on this show any more. So dumb.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Curtis: "Ghost Initiative is just another name for Suicide Sq..."

Lyla (cuts him off)

Yep, guess that's tacit confirmation they can't even use the name "Suicide Squad" on this show any more. So dumb.

It did make me laugh that they stuck that in there.  

[Mary0360]

I saw someone on twitter bring up the point that Felicity being friends with Black Siren is like if Oliver decided to hang out with Adrian and go on a bro date if he was in Sirens place, which I find that comparison very apt. I mean he even has the whole sad sob story. Just think about how ridiculous that would be. And yet because Siren looks like Laurel the randomness is expected to be ignored. 

[AudienceofOne]

God, that whole interview with Oliver Queen wrestling with the complexities of his past while trying to do right by his sister and atone for his family's sins is just so completely Oliver Queen and HOLY SHIT, PEOPLE. HE'S THE BEST PERSON ON THIS SHOW. 

Forget back stories and past pain and tsundere nonsense. Oliver Queen is an exceptional human being. This episode suddenly highlighted to me the biggest fundamental problem of this show - and not just this season. Oliver Queen is a human being who tries hard every single day to be better. And nobody gives him credit for it - not even the writers. The only person who does is Felicity and that's why we only want to see the story of Oliver and Felicity. Because they are by far the two best people on this show. The only other people that came close are Sarah and Quentin and, hey, they're gone. And this is the biggest problem. And it's a fundamental one. I don't see them fixing it soon.

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

I saw someone on twitter bring up the point that Felicity being friends with Black Siren is like if Oliver decided to hang out with Adrian and go on a bro date if he was in Sirens place, which I find that comparison very apt. I mean he even has the whole sad sob story. Just think about how ridiculous that would be. And yet because Siren looks like Laurel the randomness is expected to be ignored. 

I think hanging with Malcolm if after he vowed to go good to Thea would be a better comparison.  Adrian captures the glee in killing but he never came close to reform, not even when his wife's life came into the mix.  And not that I love being in the position of defending this storyline, but Oliver forgiving and reforming a relationship with people that had gone bad has been done with Slade and to an extent with Talia and he had a grudging respect for Malcolm.  It kind of played out kind of to an even lesser extent with Sara and Nyssa.  And I could see the potential of a friendship with Bronze Tiger if we ever saw him again.  And of course we have Anytoly.  

And Oliver seemed ready to be friends with Maseo even after he went to the LoA (had he chosen to reform rather than decide he was too far gone and let Tatsu kill him).  At the time, Oliver had Maseo's act of friendship (saving his life) to base his hopes on even if he didn't have any proof of regret over his other actions (like handing over a horrible plague)  And Felicity had what she probably saw as an unselfish act when Laurel tried to shield her from crossing a line. 

BS is the most in our face since she's a regular and we actually saw some of the specific horrible deaths she brought and how good she was with it, but as bumpy as this storyline has been, I don't really thinks it's super out of character for the show or writers to go there.  

I think the big difference and the thing that still needs to be addressed more is BS hasn't shown real remorse for the deaths's she's caused except for Vince.  She needs to be shown feeling the weight of those innocents.  And then also shown to try to do more to make up for her past crimes than take over Quentin's daughter's life.   They still need to do both those things.  And maybe that's her arc this year, going "good" for Quentin at first but gradually actually caring later. 

Ideally, she'd have left long ago but if she's here and I can't stop it, I'm more in a frame of accepting it since at least I am not bored during her scenes with Felicity.   (Though give me more OTA over Laurel any day)

Edited February 1, 2019 by BkWurm1

[TwistedandBored]

I was really bored during this episode. I am bored with the whole show. I always have low expectations for each season of Arrow but I think this season managed to even beat that. I really wished Oliver didn't reveal himself because I dislike SCPD Oliver/GA. 

[tv echo]

711 (Past Sins) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

711 (Past Sins) – After Oliver finishes his joint TV interview with D.A. Laurel Lance (actually, E2 Laurel) by interviewer Rich Kannon, Felicity gives him encouragement:
Felicity: "You were amazing. You were genuine and heartfelt and amazing. And for a second there, I almost believed that you liked Laurel."
Oliver: "I almost do."
Felicity: "If Dinah's goal is to convince the city to accept you as S.C.P.D., I would say, mission accomplished."
Oliver: "We'll see."
Felicity: "Emiko will come around, too."
Oliver: "Well, she has every right to be angry. My father abandoned her. I just - I need her to see that he and I are not the same person."
Felicity: "Well, she will, because you're not the same person. Look, that was an excellent first step. If you can prove yourself to the city, you can convince your sister to give you a chance."
Oliver: "I hope you're right."

711 (Past Sins) – Felicity invites E2 Laurel to have drinks with her, and E2 Laurel recognizes a familiar face in the bar:
Felicity: "I hope you like Malbec."
E2 Laurel: "If it's alcohol, I love it."
Felicity: "Good. Well, actually, I don't know your Earth-2 situation. Maybe you shouldn't be drinking?"
E2 Laurel: "Oh, please. I don't have a problem with alcohol, maybe the first thing I've managed to one-up your Laurel on."
Felicity: "Well, then here you go."
E2 Laurel: "So what's going on?"
Felicity: "What do you mean?"
E2 Laurel: "You told me to meet you here."
Felicity: "Mm-hmm."
E2 Laurel: "Usually, there's a reason, like a kidnapping, or maybe you need help torturing someone again."
Felicity: "I just wanted to celebrate with you after your incredible interview."
E2 Laurel: "Oh. Okay."
Felicity: "Quentin would've been really proud of you, the work you've done as a D.A. and the person that you've become. Really."
E2 Laurel: "Thank you."
Felicity: "I'll be right back, but pace yourself, because we are gonna drink this whole bottle." (Leaves)
TV News Anchor (on bar's wall screen): "... including a start on pro bono cases at CNRI, the question as to whether Laurel Lance was the right person to take over as D.A. was put to rest after a recent poll indicates she is the most popular D.A. in the past 10 years. The District Attorney's position is not an on-the-job training type. It requires experience to lead, train, and ... [muffled] .. It is a must to know criminal law inside and out..."
Brett Collins: "Laurel Lance."
E2 Laurel: "That's impossible."
(Cut to flashback on Earth-2.)
E2 Laurel: "Hello, Brett."
E2 Brett Collins: "Who the hell are you?"
E2 Laurel: "I discovered a new talent. I thought that you should be the first to hear it." (Sonic screams at him)
(Cut back to present day.)
Brett Collins: "We both know you're not as perfect as you say you are. You should be behind bars."
Bartender: "I think you've had enough, buddy."
Felicity (returning): "What just happened? Who's that guy?"
E2 Laurel: "I guess not everyone's a fan of the D.A." (Leaving)
Felicity: "Okay, but the wine, the wine."

711 (Past Sins) – E2 Laurel asks Felicity for help in tracking down Brett Collins:
Computerized Voice: "District Attorney Laurel Lance entering Queen residence."
Felicity: "Phase One is online and operational."
E2 Laurel: "What the hell was that?"
Felicity: "Just a little something I've been working on."
E2 Laurel: "Oh, good. That's why I'm here, actually. I was hoping to utilize some of your skills to help me with something."
Felicity: "Ooh."
E2 Laurel: "Hypothetically -"
Felicity: "Okay, let me stop you right there, because we both know that 'hypothetically' means that this is definitely happening."
E2 Laurel: "I need to know if someone from Earth-2 is here."
Felicity: "Okay. That's not where I thought you were going with that. Is it that guy from the bar? I knew you recognized him. Who is he? The more I know, the more I can help you."
E2 Laurel: "Do you remember when I helped you with that whole torturing the assassin thing? No questions asked?"
Felicity: "Vaguely. Okay, fine. I will see what Cisco can dig up, but then we are done playing hypothetical games."
E2 Laurel: "Deal. His name's Brett Collins."
Felicity: "You know, one of these days, you are going to realize that you can trust people."

711 (Past Sins) – With Felicity's help, Oliver makes the connection to Sam Hackett, the son of his father's murdered bodyguard:
Oliver: "We got the reporter. The kidnapper got away."
Felicity: "That's not the only thing that's bothering you."
Oliver: "It was something that he said: 'People without the last name Queen are human beings, too.'"
Felicity: "Oh, and you disagree? (Oliver shakes his head) I agree. The timing's funny. What, with your secret half-sister mysteriously returning into your life, it's strange."
Oliver: "It's not that it's strange. It's familiar. The psychiatric records from Slabside that you leaked to the press. Can you pull up my transcript with Dr. Parker?"
Felicity: "Not exactly sure what that has to do with anything, but, yes, I can."
Oliver: "Thank you."
Felicity: "Here you go."
Oliver: "Uh, can you scroll down a little bit, please?"
Felicity: "Mm-hmm."
Oliver: "There."
Felicity (reading transcript): "'What became of Hackett? Your father shot him. Then what? He doesn't matter in this story, just collateral damage? People without the last name Queen are human beings, too.' The files I sent to the press were redacted."
Oliver: "The ones you sent to the D.A. weren't."
Felicity: "So the kidnapper hacked them. But why? Why these particular sessions with Parker?"
Oliver: "Can you look up Hackett, first name David?"
Felicity: "Hackett, David, died in 2007. Survived by his son Sam, no other living relatives."
Oliver: "I met Sam a few times growing up."
Felicity: "Yeah, he's got quite the rap sheet. Assault, assault with intent, a bunch of drunk and disorderlies."
Oliver: "His father was lost at sea."
Felicity: "Or so he thought... until he read your sessions with Parker."
Oliver: "And he found out his father was murdered... by my father. Emiko was right. My family destroys everything it touches."
(Felicity's cell phone chimes.)
Felicity: "Oh, crap. Hey, I have to go."
Oliver: "Okay."
Felicity: "And I'm sorry. (Kisses him) I love you."
Oliver: "I love you, too."

711 (Past Sins) – Felicity stops E2 Laurel from killing Brett Collins:
E2 Laurel: "You're still a disgusting drunk. You haven't changed a bit."
Brett Collins: "But you have. Look at you, pretending to be reformed, playing make-believe lawyer in those fancy D.A. suits. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing, a wolf that this city needs to be rid of."
(They fight, and E2 Laurel takes Brett down.)
E2 Laurel: "You should have stayed on Earth-2."
Brett Collins: "What the hell is Earth-2?"
E2 Laurel: "You know, threatening me? That was a bad idea. Then again, your judgment's in a perpetual state of impairment. I should've finished you off the first time. (Grabs him by the throat) Although I doubt anybody would've missed you." (Squeezes his throat)
Felicity (entering): "Laurel!  (E2 Laurel lets Brett go) We're leaving now."
E2 Laurel: "You followed me here?"
Felicity: "I didn't follow you. I - I followed your DNA, which you left on my door handle. It's all part of this new program that I'm working on that tracks genetic material."
E2 Laurel: "And here I thought I only had one stalker that I had to worry about."
Felicity: "So you should be flattered, because I only stop people that I like. And now that I've found you, you are going to tell me what is going on."

711 (Past Sins) – We learn that Oliver working with the S.C.P.D. is not popular with the public:
TV News Anchor (on computer screen): "As Star City's newest kidnapper continues to elude the police, there have been renewed calls demanding Oliver Queen step down. A recent poll showed that as many as 77% of Star City citizens would support his removal from the SC -"

711 (Past Sins) – E2 Laurel reveals to Felicity her painful last words to her real father on Earth-2:
Felicity: "Let me break this down for you in words that I think that you're going to be able to understand. You are the D.A. You cannot be seen attacking randos outside of a bar!"
E2 Laurel: "Brett Collins isn't a rando. He's supposed to be dead."
Felicity: "What does that mean? What are you talking about?!"
E2 Laurel (sighing): "Collins is the drunk driver who killed my father, okay? I was 13. And I spent so many years just dreaming of the ways that I was gonna make him pay. And you know what? I did. When I got my cry, I tracked him down, and I killed him. Or at least I thought I had killed him, but, apparently, he - he's still alive and and stalking me on another Earth. Here. (Hands over the threatening note) What? What?"
Felicity: "It's - you haven't had a problem talking about the dozens of other people that you have killed. Um, so why - oh, why keep this one a secret? If someone had killed my dad, I would want revenge, too."
E2 Laurel: "Collins - he caused the accident that killed my father, but he wasn't the reason my father died. He never should've been on the road that day. He was working a lot, which... I hated. But I knew on my birthday that we would be able to celebrate, only he showed up without my cake, and I threw a tantrum. So he went back out. That's when Collins drove him off the road. And do you know the last words that I said to my father? The last thing that I said to him was 'I hate you.' My dad died because of me."
Felicity: "Well, now that you've said it out loud, can you understand how irrational that is?"
E2 Laurel: "This is exactly the reason I've never told anyone before."
Felicity: "Well, you should've, so that that someone could tell you that it's not your fault. If someone is after you on this Earth or on any other Earth, we are going to get him, whoever they are... together."

711 (Past Sins) – Oliver does another TV interview and reveals that his father murdered his bodyguard, Dave Hackett:
Rich Kannon: "I think the entire city can sleep a little more soundly knowing that Sam Hackett is behind bars."
Oliver: "Well, that's the reason I asked to be here today. I'd like to set the record straight. Twelve years ago, when my father's boat went down, he and I weren't the only two people to reach the life raft. A third individual, his bodyguard, Dave Hackett, was also aboard. Now, when my father realized that there wasn't enough food and water for everyone, as you know, he sacrificed himself for me. But before he took his own life, he took Dave Hackett's."
Rich Kannon: "Your father killed Dave Hackett."
Oliver: "My father killed Dave Hackett. The people of Star City deserve the truth."
Rich Kannon: "Why come forward now? Hackett has been apprehended. The threat is over."
Oliver: "Because transparency is about more than just not wearing a mask. I've made mistakes. I'm sure that I will make mistakes again. But what I will not do is lie. That is my promise to you, the people of Star City."

711 (Past Sins) – Felicity and E2 Laurel meet with Dinah and resolve the Brett Collins problem:
Dinah: "A stalker from a different Earth. Of course. Why wouldn't there be? (E2 Laurel gets up to leave) Oh. I hope you're not leaving, because I have some good news. We have Brett Collins in custody. And after what you just told me, I'm gonna make sure he stays there for a very long time."
E2 Laurel: "But how can you hold him for crimes he committed on another Earth?"
Dinah: "This scumbag is, unfortunately, our Earth's problem. Beat cop picked him up for public intoxication, and it looks like he has a history of stalking and anti-vigilante violence."
Felicity: "Well, that makes sense. I mean, he would've seen your interview, and you are the former Black Canary, so... (Her cell phone chimes)  And the karma gods must really be on your side, because Cisco just texted that Brett Collins from your Earth died five years ago on his porch from unknown causes."
E2 Laurel: "So five minutes ago, I had two Brett problems, and now I have none."
Felicity: "None."
E2 Laurel: "Well, thank you. Thank you to the both of you."
Felicity: "It's not so bad having other people back you up, is it?"

711 (Past Sins) – Oliver and Felicity meet up at the S.C.P.D. police station:
(Oliver approaches Dinah's office, as Felicity and E2 Laurel leave it. Felicity heads toward Oliver, while E2 Laurel goes off in a different direction.)
Oliver: "Hey. (Taking Felicity's hand) Laurel had a stalker?"
Felicity: "Yeah, it's been a crazy couple of days."
Oliver: "Yup."
Felicity: "Speaking of, I saw your interview. I'm so proud of you. That couldn't have been easy."
Oliver: "It's a start. It's gonna take a lot more to convince this city I've changed."
Felicity: "Oh, I think you'd be surprised. (Sees Emiko waiting for Oliver down the hall) I, um, I forgot - I forgot something. Over here." (Leaves)

Edited March 24, 2020 by tv echo