Sara Lance: The Canary Rises In White

[BkWurm1]

She feels so superfluous next to the titular character. I eyerolled at those mirror salmon ladder/wooden dummy training scenes. The whole point of them was like, "Hey, look at Female Oliver doing Oliver things. Isn't that cool?"

 

This is probably why I don't feel like she belongs full time on the show.  She should really be the star of her own show, not crowding out Arrow.  That said, unless a Birds of Prey does fly in out of no where, I think she is staying around.  I don't want a different BC, we'd have the same problem.  I like Sara but in smaller doses. 

I also think that since she is shown as so similar to Oliver, it is why in the long run that she and Oliver work better as friends and occasional co-workers rather than lovers.  The need a counter part, not a mirror image of all their worst faults. 

[Sakura12]

I kind of like that they've been showing us that Sara's always been much darker than Oliver and for the most part smarter than him. Island Oliver is still a little naive and trusting while Sara's already been hardened by her experiences. She wasn't just trusting Slade to walk away with Henrick(?) she planned to kill them both so they could take the boat. It's like Anatoli said "When did you become so scary?" Sara was what 21 at that time and was already scaring the head of the Russian Mafia. No wonder the League took her in.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Batman doesn't kill. Ever.

[Sakura12]

Pre-GambitSara and IslandSara are different than CurrentSara, I really want to see what AssassinSara was like. We're starting to see her transformation in being scary according to the head of the Russain mafia. So I hope we get to see flashbacks of truly scary Sara. 

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Read a few Batman novels or just Google it, there's a reason he doesn't kill and it's a really important reason that is inherent to the character.  How deep you want to take that is probably up to the individual reader but Batman doesn't kill is ingrained in the character and it's an important part of the character.

Yes there have been various writers who've had him kill only later to have another writer retcon that death in order to keep to the rule but retcons count too.

I think since the writers can't use Batman, they are making Sara similar to the Dark Knight.

Not even close

Edited April 3, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[David T. Cole]

Batman doesn't kill because he wants everyone in a group -- say, in a topic on a forum -- to coexist peacefully and not get too testy about things. That Batman, he's a cool guy.

Now back to Sara talk.

[bravelittletoaster]

I can see why people like that. It just does the opposite for me. She feels so superfluous next to the titular character. I eyerolled at those mirror salmon ladder/wooden dummy training scenes. The whole point of them was like, "Hey, look at Female Oliver doing Oliver things. Isn't that cool?"

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but are you into chicks?  Because that probably makes a difference in our perspectives.  Because you rolled your eyes at it and I was like, 'omg she needs to get into my bed yesterday.'  

[Sakura12]

I'm not into girls. But I love badass characters with a dark side or are morally ambiguous , guys or girls. Examples of my favorite characters, Faith from Buffy, Sawyer and Juliet from Lost, Mal on Firefly, and all the characters on Game of Thrones. So the character of Sara is right up my alley. I'm mostly bored by the good characters. That's why I also like Oliver, he's flawed, he's dark and he's makes stupid decision sometimes. I'm glad he's not perfect all the time. Same with Sara. 

[CabotCove]

I kind of like that they've been showing us that Sara's always been much darker than Oliver and for the most part smarter than him. I

 

Exactly, they have similarities but also have differences. 

[quarks]

Bravelittletoaster, it is indeed possible that when Sara suits up as Black Canary I am thinking Impure Thoughts instead of Hmm, how exactly is she managing all of that in a push-up bra.  I'm not saying this, mind you, because that would be all shallow and stuff.

[pause to look at gifs in a purely intellectual and not at all shallow sort of way.]

On a related note, I firmly believe that the salmon ladder is as underused as Diggle because of Important Character Development reasons, and if you give me a moment alone I might think of some. 

And now, back to Sara talk :) 

[Zalyn]

I also think that since she is shown as so similar to Oliver, it is why in the long run that she and Oliver work better as friends and occasional co-workers rather than lovers.  The need a counter part, not a mirror image of all their worst faults. 

Agreed.  I tend to enjoy Sara as a character most when she is either 1) put into conflict or disagreement with Oliver (to emphasize their differences) or 2) standing with Oliver against someone else (like Roy).  Either way, there needs to be something active happening so she doesn't just seem like an Oliver double.

[bravelittletoaster]

This is sort of belated, but I think it's never too late to give praise where praise is due.  Now that I know what the "salmon ladder" is called, it's easier to google.  Here's Caity Lotz practicing it:

http://instagram.com/p/kKwVMtOGTY/

Praise.

[Kromm]

This is sort of belated, but I think it's never too late to give praise where praise is due.  Now that I know what the "salmon ladder" is called, it's easier to google.  Here's Caity Lotz practicing it:

http://instagram.com/p/kKwVMtOGTY/

Praise.

The Salmon Ladder is so hard, it's one of the stunts that knocks out massive numbers of people on American Ninja Warrior.

[bravelittletoaster]

Obviously the salmon ladder is a thing, but I'd never seen anyone do that before Amell did, and I totally geeked out and described it to anyone who would listen and forced people to watch YouTube videos of it.  I didn't know what it was called, so I've just been calling it "ridiculous flying pull ups," which I think is equally apt.  Then they got this cute blonde girl to do it and I was like, "You rang??"

So yeah, just mad mad respect to anyone who can do that.  And not to sound sexist--because I am a woman who's pretty fit and works out hard--but I'm particularly impressed they found an actress who could do that.  Upper body strength like that takes so much work for a woman to develop.  I'm pretty strong, but I can't imagine I could ever do that.

[Carrie Ann]

Caity does parkour too: 

Edited April 4, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Sakura12]

Her parkour skills are awesome. So are her tricking and b-girl skills, which is another thing not many women are known for. 

My favorite is still this one. I mean she practically ran up all the way up the wall to do the flip.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k512/mhoye1214/ezgif-save16_zps3d6edf58.gif

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[bravelittletoaster]

Woah.  Ok, so maybe it's easier to do a salmon ladder when gravity doesn't apply to you.  Heh.

[Kromm]

Caity does parkour too: 

As weird as it sounds to say to anyone watching that--because that's immensely impressive and beyond what 99.999% of the people on the planet can do--I think her parkour skills only go so far, because she doesn't specialize.  Also, I think its obvious she's careful not to risk her face (the only move that really threatens it that much are those fast jumps she makes in-between those railings).

Most of those moves have got to brutal on her hands though.  

[BkWurm1]

Well in her line of work she has to protect her face.

Slightly off topic but is it just me or does it bug anyone else that people use the term parkour to describe what is 95% running, jumping, and climbing aka basically what most all of us did as kids on the playground? Just me?

[Kromm]

Well in her line of work she has to protect her face.

Slightly off topic but is it just me or does it bug anyone else that people use the term parkour to describe what is 95% running, jumping, and climbing aka basically what most all of us did as kids on the playground? Just me?

I'd love to see a kids playground group that runs up walls, dives between railings, does hands-free forward somersaults, etc.

The inspiration is a lot closer to gymnastics.  The parkour aspect is that it spontaneously uses things already in an environment rather than some standardized gear.

[Sakura12]

Parkour is like making everything your playgroud. I climbed trees when I was little but I never scaled walls or leapt across rooftops. I give Caity props since she seems to have no fear of gravity.

She's also a very acitve person, when she has a day or two off of filming she goes snowboarding and rock climbing. So that's why she looks the way she does. She never rests.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

I climbed trees when I was little but I never scaled walls or leapt across rooftops. I give Caity props since she seems to have no fear of gravity

 

That's the 5% that I have no trouble accepting the special term for.  ;D

[Danny Franks]

Parkour is insane, and people who practice it (and spend the time and effort to get good) have nothing but my undying respect. But I also think they're crazy bastards. I've seen Parkour done more impressively than in that video, but given that Caity is busy acting and doing martial arts and probably modelling and whatever else, the fact that she's that good is seriously impressive.

Caity Lotz is just... well, she makes me feel all funny in that good way, with her badass capabilities. You get a girl like this in your superhero show, you really shouldn't let her get away. But I still remain unconvinced that the writers of the show believe that. I think they're too caught up in their Laurel narrative (whatever that may be, because I still don't know).

[KirkB]

I'm hoping the focus on Sara/Canary is CW's way of testing out the possibility of a Black Canary or BoP show. Not just because I would like to see that (I would) but as much as I like the character I don't want too much focus taken away from Oliver. It's supposed to be Arrow, not Arrow and Canary (although it would be fine if that was what it was or was intended from the start). Plus with Sara and Roy there, it's taking away from Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, which is the group I was really tuning in for in the first season.

[bravelittletoaster]

Caity Lotz is just... well, she makes me feel all funny in that good way, with her badass capabilities. You get a girl like this in your superhero show, you really shouldn't let her get away. But I still remain unconvinced that the writers of the show believe that. I think they're too caught up in their Laurel narrative (whatever that may be, because I still don't know).

Being a Glee survivor, I live in a constant state of fear now that writers and showrunners won't appreciate the talent of their cast and think they're expendable.  It's total Glee PTSD because I never worried about this before, but now I'm all, omg you realize she's special, right?  Please don't fire her!  Fucking Glee.

[Kromm]

Parkour is insane, and people who practice it (and spend the time and effort to get good) have nothing but my undying respect. But I also think they're crazy bastards. I've seen Parkour done more impressively than in that video, but given that Caity is busy acting and doing martial arts and probably modelling and whatever else, the fact that she's that good is seriously impressive.

Caity Lotz is just... well, she makes me feel all funny in that good way, with her badass capabilities. You get a girl like this in your superhero show, you really shouldn't let her get away. But I still remain unconvinced that the writers of the show believe that. I think they're too caught up in their Laurel narrative (whatever that may be, because I still don't know).

Yeah, that was similar to the point I was trying to make, but was timid because it might seem disrespectful to what she CAN do to be too on the nose with it. Her Parkour is impressive, but its impressive compared to normal humans, not compared to real Parkour experts.

[dippydee]

Caity Lotz is just... well, she makes me feel all funny in that good way, with her badass capabilities. You get a girl like this in your superhero show, you really shouldn't let her get away. But I still remain unconvinced that the writers of the show believe that. I think they're too caught up in their Laurel narrative (whatever that may be, because I still don't know).

I love her in this role and I love how good she is at the physical aspect of it but I'm scared to like her too much because I'm convinced she's going to get killed off so Laurel can have her "destiny" and whatnot. I hope the show runners realise she's too good to let getaway.

I'd totally be down for a Birds Of Prey spinoff (provided they recast Huntress) as long as they learn lessons from piss poor last attempt at it.

[ApathyMonger]

I note that Caity's film 'The Machine' is out on DVD/Blu-Ray soon (at least here in Oz). IMDB has decidedly mixed reviews, but I'm always up for watching Caity kick butt - has anyone seen it and can give me a 'worth spending twenty bucks on' review?

Just watched The Machine. It's a sort of near-future Frankenstein thing, and a bit too predictable (Denis Lawson's role as the Bureaucrat Bad Guy is something done hundreds of times before), but it's enjoyable. Lotz is the best thing in it, and gets to do some nice action stuff. It's the sort of movie that I'm sure will turn up on Netflix eventually; it's worth a watch, but I'm not sure if it's worth a buy.

Trailer for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF6l4LAmN8A

[bravelittletoaster]

Holy God, her arms.

[Sakura12]

She got jacked for that role. 

[Happy Harpy]

I love her in this role and I love how good she is at the physical aspect of it but I'm scared to like her too much because I'm convinced she's going to get killed off so Laurel can have her "destiny" and whatnot. I hope the show runners realise she's too good to let getaway.

I also hope so. The last episode confirmed that I had problems with Sara lately because of the writing (what was imo an attempt, too rushed at that, at making her a kind of co-lead,YMMV) but I still like the character. For me, C.Lotz and Sara are a perfect fit, which is why she can still work well in my eyes even after a few episodes where she embodied a significant part of my problems with the show. It also confirmed, in reverse, that my problem with Laurel isn't the writing, but more fundamentally the character/actor combination. It just doesn't work for me, and nothing comes close to my dislike for her.

So, I don't care about the Black Canary in general, I didn't care to have one on the show (not a comic reader) and I'm not even a die-hard Sara fan...nevertheless, I can't imagine anyone but Sara as Arrow's Black Canary, least of all Laurel, and I will be majorly pissed off if the former dies so that the latter can take her place.

Next year (since she'll be there) I hope that Sara's airtime will count more scenes with Diggle/Felicity, like in episode 18, and with Sin, because imo she works better like this than when she's limited to Oliver/Lance family interaction.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[bravelittletoaster]

Reading your post just now reminded me of how much more I liked Spike on Buffy when he started interacting more with the rest of the Scooby gang and not just Buffy, and I sort of feel a similar dynamic here.  I really dig Sara [and Caity] but I agree that her sudden addition feels less claustrophobic when they open things up and let her interact more with Diggle, Felicity and Roy [and have they just dropped Sin?  She disappears for long periods of time so I never know if she's coming back.]

[Zalyn]

Count another vote for more Sara + Sin interactions.  It helps bring out another, potentially deeper side of Sara because she has to be a maternal/big sisterly/mentor figure for Sin; it also keeps Sara looking towards the present and future instead of just the past.  It's kind of like how Spike's and Dawn's interactions gave some great new angles on Spike's character. 

[quarks]

Over on the Deathstroke episode thread, Statsgirl noted that a February interview claimed that the Oliver/Sara relationship would be explored over the next five episodes, and that the producers would want to explore "Is this something that can work given both of our [pasts]?"  Statsgirl then added:

We haven't really seen yet how Oliver and Sara function as a couple as opposed to a crime fighting duo, although the writers could have done something with their differences of opinion in Birds of Prey that would have let us know something more about both characters.  If they break up now, it will remain a big hole in the story.

 

 

I have to agree.  I also want to note that they haven't ASKED the question in the show "Is this something that can work given both of our [pasts]?" I think it's a legitimate question, mind you, but so far the questions that have been asked are:

1. Should I throw you a party that you don't want to have?

2. Should I go to your family dinner and create hell for everyone?

3. Is this making Felicity feel left out?  (Sorta asked by Sara.)

4. Am I a good bartender?

5. Given that a one eyed psychopath who hates us both is hunting us, are you safer with or without me?

6. Should you toss people out of windows?

7. Given that you're planning on killing Slade, do you have any right to tell me not to kill Helena?

8. Are you sure you should go after Slade since this is clearly a trap?

It's not that these are bad questions, it's just that only one of them - number five - really touches on the question of whether or not they should be together, and that one is pointless - Slade is going to come after Sara whether or not she's sleeping with Oliver. Since every other long term relationship on the show (where "long term" means "longer than two episodes") has gotten at least one "should we do this?" conversation at some point, I find it odd that it hasn't come up yet here, since this seems to be a pretty iconic, major relationship, or at least it should be. And yet it seems to me to still be mostly unexplored, despite the major increase in Sara's screentime.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm actually one of the people who finds their relationship and this storyline believable given both of their personalities. They love each other, they have a history, and they have an understanding of each other that no one else can have right now. So their falling back together makes a lot of sense to me, and not really wanting to look at it too hard or talk about it too much also makes sense given their characters.

That said, if this were the pairing I was most interested in, I would be disappointed. There was no build-up, so that makes the "payoff" pretty weak. They just ended an episode doing it, and by the next, they were together and that's that. I see a sweetness in their interactions with each other, in the moments they do have to be each other's support, but otherwise...they just haven't been portrayed as a couple that I would root for, and the producers are just expecting us to fill in the blanks as far as their connection goes. OK, but in the long run, that's not workable. I do expect some of the conversations you referenced will take place in the near future.

For Sara herself, it's a bit of a disservice to just relegate her to Oliver's girlfriend at this point. But I hold out hope that they will continue to flesh her out and give her her own space. I just don't know that that's possible on this show about the Arrow, and not about Black Canary.

[statsgirl]

They do have a history, and an understanding of each other that no one else has so I completely understand why they might fall into a relationship with each for comfort and support especially given the stress of dinner at Laurel's and Slade being in town.   It may be the writing but while I can see that they care for each other a lot, I don't see them as loving each other, not the way Roy loves Thea or even as Moira loves Walter.  Paul Blackthorne's non-verbal acting in one short scene in Salvation let me know how much Quentin still loves Dinah.  With Sara and Oliver, it feels like it's comfortable sleeping with the other, like an old pair of slippers, rather than a real love.

I also got the impression from the first part of s2 that Sara thinks she's too damaged to be in a relationship, or to be worthy of a relationship, so the show appears to have skipped a few beats and several conversations getting her from there to a relationship with Oliver.

Edited April 6, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

I agree that they have a history, but before the hookup I don't think this was the sort of history that would not necessarily lead them to trust each other at all, let alone be comfortable with each other, since prior to the hookup it included betrayal, not telling the truth or at least the full truth to each other, Oliver putting a tracker on Sara (in the same episode where he hooked up with her) and Shado's death, which is big enough that Oliver's still having nightmares about it years later. This is all apart from the Laurel thing.

And I'm not even sure that they are that comfortable with each other. Sara says that neither of them are good about talking about things like nightmares (true) and it seems they aren't confiding in each other that much. Granted with Slade around they don't have that much time. Loving each other - again, I'm not sure about this.  The show has given us several other couples who are in love, at least in theory: Moira and Walter, Diggle and Lyla, Thea and Roy, and (even if it was mostly one sided) Laurel and Tommy, and all of those couples were shown more visibly caring for each other. 

It's a relationship I feel we're getting more told about than shown.

[Zalyn]

 

It's a relationship I feel we're getting more told about than shown.

Maybe this can be referenced in-show as a reason for them to part ways... That would be awesome.

[Mars477]

I don't mind Sara and Oliver being in a relationship because she's probably the only woman on the show who can hope to survive first contact with the enemy reasonably intact, that enemy not being Deathstroke but rather Oliver's White Male Hero-ness (which is quite an accomplishment considering that she's also the newest addition to the cast).  It's worth noting that in the last episode, Oliver wants do a thing.  Sara, who of the two actually uses her brain, tells him not to.  Felicity, the fan favorite audience surrogate who everyone wants to get with Oliver, enables him and tells him to do what he wants to do.  Oliver promptly blunders into a trap that proves to be an utter waste of time.

The alternative would have been to, I dunno, just quarantine the relationship stuff in Laurel who nobody likes anyways.  That would keep the female characters who matter safe, but it'd still be pretty painful for the rest of us.  

Edited April 6, 2014 by Mars477

[Kromm]

I'd hate for some exploration of the viability of their relationship to actually be constructed as some back door into hooking Ollie back up with Laurel.

I suppose hearing this kind of stuff is feeding the biggest Ollicity fans though, in hopes its instead a backdoor into that.  Which in the short term may please people, but if you think about it may not be much better than it being the same being true with Laurel.  Why?  Because it will smack of fan wish fulfillment.   It won't feel earned. Which frankly is always going to be a bit of a problem with Ollicity, unless the show is very clever about  it.

[quarks]

The thing is, although I think Sara and Oliver work better as fighting partners and friends, I don't mind the idea of them in a relationship (not the way I do mind the idea of Laurel and Oliver ever, ever renewing things. Just, auugh.) I even had them as a potential endgame.

What I don't like is the way this ended up playing, or really, not playing, out on screen: two people supposedly in a relationship who are barely on screen alone together and who address only an unimportant issue, not the really big barriers between them - even as one, Shado, keeps getting referenced in show.

I also can't agree that Sara is the only woman on the show who can go against Oliver's White Male Heroness.  For one, the only woman in the show who actually beat Oliver, hands down, last episode, is Isobel, who used his very "I must save my sister above all else even though I still haven't admitted that it's mostly my fault that Slade could kidnap her in the first place!" against him to steal his company.  For two, everyone calls Oliver out on his crap, all the time, which is why I've never been able to buy any argument suggesting that anyone except very arguably Diggle is any better at it than anyone else. Laurel and Felicity do it a lot. During Suicide Squad, Laurel called him on the crap about isolating himself without even knowing how REALLY pointless it was, and he listened to her, not Sara. Felicity was the one who reminded Oliver that yes, they were still in the hero business, at least in theory, and he listened to her. This last episode, Felicity did get him to go back to the office - at least until he got distracted by Thea's kidnapping.  So although, yes, she did tell him to go off and fight Slade, she was also able to get him to do something he didn't want to do. Sara's telling him not to go after Slade again because it was a trap was of course correct - but Sara was also ineffectual. Oliver went off anyway. Yes, encouraged by Felicity, but still; he didn't listen to Sara, so the idea that she can get him to stop being an idiot doesn't seem to be playing out on screen.

Not to mention that so far, Sara's ideas have been a mix of good, pragmatic and outright terrible. Good = the Magical Snake Venom. Pragmatic = Killing Helena. Outright terrible = Telling Oliver to lie to Slade.  That lie is one of the major reasons everyone is in this mess. So I'm kinda thinking it's a good thing that Oliver doesn't always listen to her, although in general I really think Oliver should listen to everybody, including Sara and even Isobel, more.

Kromm, I don't want the viability of their relationship to be discussed as some sort of back way of hooking up Oliver/Laurel again, because Oliver and Sara's problems have exactly zilch to do with Laurel, and I am not going to believe in an epic true love where the guy keeps sleeping with the girl's sister. (I'll give Oliver/Sara a pass here since when Oliver slept with Laurel last year he thought Sara was dead.) If they break up, and there's ANY mention of Laurel I shall squawk. Lots. 

Regarding Oliver/Felicity - well, that's a different thread, really, but I'd say if that happens, it might feel earned, or it might not, depending. On the bright side they aren't rushing it and they've dropped a lot of anvils. On the considerably less bright side, this show has not exactly given us reasons to be optimistic on this front.

[Sakura12]

What happened on the island is in the past. Sara survived on a boat with dangerous men for a year, so it's not surprising she started to think like them. Present day Sara has made the smarter decisions (not always the nicest ones) but the smarter ones. She's changed from who she was on the island. Yes, her first instinct is to kill, but she doesn't go about it half assed, she makes a plan, she prepares, so she is ready. Her plan with the snake venom was smart. What was Oliver going to do just go there and hope for the best? Just like when Felicity told him to go be his usual stupid self and take down Slade alone. I thought she was supposed to be the smart one? Sara told Oliver, Slade was playing with him, she was right. While I still think Roy's an idiot, he was right about one thing. Oliver has a former special forces solider and a former assassin on his team, he needs to use them and let them help him plan his attacks because that was how both Diggle and Sara were taught to handle situations. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

 It's worth noting that in the last episode, Oliver wants do a thing.  Sara, who of the two actually uses her brain, tells him not to.  Felicity, the fan favorite audience surrogate who everyone wants to get with Oliver, enables him and tells him to do what he wants to do.  Oliver promptly blunders into a trap that proves to be an utter waste of time. 

Oliver was set on doing something.  In my experience, when someone is determined like that, telling them outright not to do a thing is a waste of breath.

In terms of plotting, they needed Oliver at the trap and distracted, and also it was time for some more fight scenes.  But if they wanted to write Oliver/Sara as a viable relationship, they should have had her strategizing with Oliver over what to do to get Thea back and fight Slade, Sara suggesting an alternative plan than going to the warehouse and the two of them do that. Sara and Oliver are good when it comes to fighting as a team but for strategizing, Diggle has been a better partner for him.

But then, Oliver doesn't always listen to Diggle either.  In which case Diggle tags along to clean up the mess.

[quarks]

Leaving aside for the moment that seemingly everyone on this show is haunted, broken, or dealing with events from years past - even Isabel just admitted that whatever is motivating her happened at least six years ago, since it involved Oliver's father who died six years ago, with Oliver and Sara it's not just the past on the island. 

It happened in February, when Oliver had Felicity put a tracer on Sara because he didn't believe that Sara would tell him where she was going. That turned out to be correct. Sara didn't tell him where she was going and she didn't tell him that she planned to kill herself. Nor did she tell Oliver before this that she wasn't just a member of the League of Assassins, but had actually slept with one of them. 

Sara was right to note that Slade was playing them - but she didn't have a plan either, and while Oliver was off at least taking out some of Slade's goons, she and Diggle never noticed that Slade was using this whole thing as a diversion to create an Evil Superpowered Army. The real problem there, though, was that the four (or five) of them couldn't manage to sit down and create one, which speaks to a major team issue, not a Sara issue in particular. And that said, Deathstroke wouldn't be much of a villain if he couldn't start out by outsmarting them - that's exactly what makes him a credible threat.

With Sara's plans - well, I don't think many of Sara's plans have been particularly great, and a few of them have backfired spectacularly, but to be fair that's true of pretty much everyone in the show, so I can't really single out Sara there. 

[BkWurm1]

Sara, who of the two actually uses her brain, tells him not to.  Felicity, the fan favorite audience surrogate who everyone wants to get with Oliver, enables him and tells him to do what he wants to do.  Oliver promptly blunders into a trap that proves to be an utter waste of time

 

Taken back to the Deathstroke episode thread.

[Sakura12]

I don't see anything wrong with Oliver and Sara either, I don't need to see them staring lovingly in each other's eyes or touching each other all the time or spending every waking moment together. I don't do that with my boyfriend. So I have no problems with the way they are showing Oliver and Sara's relationship, especially on tv show I don't want the romance drama to take over the show, with them it's not. 

What they have shown me is Sara has a life outside Oliver. Felicity on the other hand, her whole life is Oliver she has nothing else going for her. Of course Oliver likes that what guy wouldn't. When she visited Barry, Oliver got all upset because she's supposed to be there at all times by his side. We can call that jealousy if we want but I find that kind of controlling. He won't date her but she can't hang out with anyone else either. While he can date whoever he wants. How is that a good relationship builder?

These writers just don't know how to write for a larger cast, they don't know how to split the storylines somewhat equally. Game of Thrones has 20 regular cast members and in the premiere last night they managed to show every character's story while also introducing new characters. So it can be done, they just need the writers that can do that. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I don't see anything wrong with Oliver and Sara either, I don't need to see them staring lovingly in each other's eyes or touching each other all the time or spending every waking moment together. I don't do that with my boyfriend. So I have no problems with the way they are showing Oliver and Sara's relationship, especially on tv show I don't want the romance drama to take over the show, with them it's not.

 

Unfortunately, I'm just the opposite when it comes to my TV shows and romance.  I actually like the build-up to a relationship...it's one of my favorite parts.  I like watching a couple falling for each other.  I don't need a lot of angst and drama, but Oliver rolling up his sleeves and cooking dinner with Sara (like Stephen Amell mentioned in an interview, I think) or some situation like that would even be a nice development.  It probably would have helped me become more invested in this pairing, that's for sure. 

Ultimately, though, these writers don't know how to write for a large cast and they don't seem to write romance well either, so maybe I should be careful what I wish for.  

[quarks]

For me, it's not a question of what people do in real life with their boyfriends/girlfriends, which is pretty variable in any case. It's a question of what people on this show do when in "long term" relationships (or what the show calls "long term" relationships), which includes having several scenes together without anyone else in the room, discussing their relationship every once in awhile and asking, is this a good idea (for whatever reason), and frequently touching/kissing on the cheek, showing physical affection. For whatever reason, the show has chosen not to show this with Oliver and Sara, even though this is a central relationship with the show's main protagonist and a major character.

I can also think of one more reason why I'd rather see this relationship played out with at least some passion on screen: it's risky, on both sides. Oliver and Sara not only risked hurting Laurel (and since Sara had just seen that Laurel was still angry, she can't possibly say she didn't realize this), but also risked having still more people figure out Oliver's "secret" identity. As various people have noted here, ridiculous as it is that Quentin couldn't figure things out before this, it's still more ridiculous now that he can see that his daughter is fighting with the Arrow during the night and dating Oliver by day. And Quentin's not the only person who could figure it out - the League of Assassins can figure this out now if they haven't already.  And on Sara's side, A.R.G.U.S. could figure out her identity if they haven't already.

So why take this risk if they aren't in love with each other? And if they are supposed to be in love, then why isn't the show having them do the same things that they've had the other "in love" couples on the show do?  It would be kinda cool if this was meant to show that in fact Oliver and Sara are a more stable couple but that's not the sense I'm getting from the show. 

I completely agree that the writers are not the Game of Thrones guys in the least. But I do think they do know how to write for a larger cast - they did so in this last episode, where everyone except, sigh, Diggle, managed to get a story, and even Diggle got to do something.  They've also done so in Three Ghosts and other episodes. So they can do it; they just, for whatever reason, don't do it very often. S when it only happens a couple times per season it's hard to escape the conclusion that it isn't one of their priorities. 

No argument from me whatsoever that Felicity needs a life outside Oliver. Geesh. 

[Sakura12]

I don't get where you keep saying they never show Oliver and Sara touching or kissing. That's pretty much all they do when it's just them. Obviously we all know what happened in ep 13, ep 14 was for the Laurel and Felicity drama, ep 15 was mostly island and the Slade being in Oliver's house threat. In ep 16 they we see them in bed together showing us they are sleeping in the Arrow cave, when Sara followed him to the Bravta, they hugged and he kissed her, after he saw Slade's stalker vids of Shado Oliver went to Sara where the scene ended with them in an embrace, then the last scene of them Oliver held her hand and thanked her for being there for him then they kissed. In ep 17 people were upset that Oliver was kissing Sara instead of going after Thea. In ep 18 we never saw them alone together and I don't blame them for not being touchy feely they were all thinking about saving Thea.

They are not eating each other's faces off or anything, but I don't see Roy/Thea doing that every episode either, I don't think they've done that since Roy was first injected and the glass fell on him. I don't see them touching all that much, they mostly just talk or argue with each other or Roy goes off with Sin. So they are showing their relationship like they show all their relationships. The main issue is they are not good at writing romance. For me writing the will they/won't they is lazy writing because they are just depending on the actor chemistry and most writers end up ruining that by making up contrived reason why they can't be together and keep doing that until most fans don't care about the couple that much anymore. Then they finally put them together because they are losing viewers. 

Plus I can see Oliver and Sara clinging to each other because they know each other and know that they both went through something traumatic that changed them completely. If Sara were to date someone new (man or woman) and she wanted to sleep with them she'd have to explain her scars. Bullet wounds and a bunch of long jagged scars are not something normal people have. Then she'd either have to tell them or hide the fact that she's a former assassin and now fights crime in costume at night. With Oliver she doesn't have worry about any of that. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Sakura12

[quarks]

When did I say "never"? I've said "barely" or "rarely," which is not the same as "never."  I've even specifically noted times when they have kissed or touched. What I have focused on is that they have very few scenes together without other people in the scene, and that their scenes together tend to be short and oddly non-physical/passionate. Indeed, your summary kinda proves my point. In two of the six episodes so far with this relationship, they have never been on screen alone together and never touched during the episode. In two more episodes (Clock King and Birds of Prey), they had only brief scenes alone together, and again, barely touched. Notably, in Clock King both of them had longer scenes with Laurel than they did together. In Birds of Prey, not only did Oliver have a longer scene with Helena, but Roy managed a longer scene with random bar chick.

That leaves us with Heir to the Demon, where Sara made out with Nyssa for longer than she did with Oliver, and Suicide Squad, where Diggle and Lyla twice made out for longer than Sara and Oliver did in that episode, which is where I'm getting my little idea that the writers do not intend to show this as a passionate relationship.  

Oh, and Roy and Thea? You're right that they haven't had makeout sessions since January, but also, during this same period, both of them have barely been on screen until the past two episodes. They did touch during Birds of Prey when Roy gave Thea the bracelet. Then they broke up and stopped touching. Before that they had at least three major makeout sessions, possibly more from the first season that I'm forgetting - they've definitely made out more than any other couple on the show, though that's probably a conversation for their threads :)

Anyway, obviously this can be read differently by different people - we're reading it differently, after all! And again, I don't think that what is happening on screen is particularly unusual for relationships in real life.  It's just odd for this show, which usually has tried to convey HI SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP HERE with I SHALL TOUCH YOU LOTS. 

I think your point about dating each other because that helps avoid awkward questions with other people about scars and nighttime activities and so on is a good one, though. I mean, yes, Sara can always fall back on "island! Evil! Don't ask me about it!" the way that Oliver does, but...that never stopped people from asking Oliver questions, so I doubt it would stop people from asking Sara questions either. And yeah, it's a convenient way to avoid the "Honey, I'm just heading out to the movies. Again. Oh, no, you don't have to join me" thing.  So this I can definitely see and it's a good argument, even if it seems to suggest convenience rather than love, and I do think this would be a good thing for the show to explore. 

But where you're seeing two people clinging to each other, I'm not.  I'm seeing two people who, by Sara's own statement, don't communicate much. I'm seeing two people who less than one month in need Laurel to give them relationship advice. Which....you know, if they got that close on the island, and they know each other that well, and are that comfortable with each other, why?  (I am aware that the answer to this one is "Give Laurel something to do this episode that she can react to without knowing their secrets," which AUUUGH but this is not the Laurel thread.) And I'm seeing an Oliver who rarely listens to Sara. Sara tells him she doesn't want a party? He has one anyway. Sara asks him to go to her family dinner? He says no until Felicity tells him to go. Sara tells him that they might need to kill Helena? He shrugs it off. Sara tells him that he's walking into Slade's trap?  He goes. 

My own thought is that all of this is deliberate on the part of the writers, but...as you said, romance is not their thing, so it might not be.

And with that I kinda think we've discussed this nearly to death :) When is the next episode so we can have something else to chew on?