S14.E10: Nihilism

[BabySpinach]

Michael keeps calling Dean pretty, and I am 100% here for it. Good to know he appreciates the hotness of his perfect vessel.

Jensen's Cas imitation was fucking hysterical and weirdly dead-on in an exaggerated, caricatured sort of way. That whole scene was gold, and quite satisfying for being one of the few times where a villain mercilessly roasted the absolute shit out of Sam and Cas on Dean's behalf. It's usually Dean who bears the brunt of verbal abuse for being clingy/weak/bloodthirsty while his loved ones are cast to be worthier/more independent. The fact that Michael's takedowns held some degree of truth just made them sting even more. A bit of balance at last! 

His comments on Jack tickled me as well. Finally, someone says something mean to Nougat Boy and doesn't fall at his feet in worship! Finally, someone implies how spoiled and coddled he is, and how aggressively he was shoved into our faces. 

This is the kind of material that should have been present at the beginning of the season. The central story of 14.10 could have happened much earlier, since nothing really changed with Dean and Michael between the first possession and the second. Better late than never, I suppose, and I'm certainly not complaining about what we got! 

ETA: Jensen leaping over that bar at the beginning was a thing of beauty. Always appreciate his impressive displays of athleticism. His fighting was amazing as always, especially as Michael.

Also a great element of the episode: multiple canon declarations that Dean was strong/more than strong, plus some cool insight into his psyche about how he "thrives" on trauma. And now Dean is doing what Sam only did for a few seconds in 5.22: retaking his autonomy from a fucking archangel! Michael had no idea what he was in for. Poor, arrogant bastard.

Yockey is a godsend. I could just gush about him and this episode for hours. It's amazing that this show can still have so much momentum and intrigue 14 seasons in (as long as the writing is actually good and we don't waste time on one-dimensional pet Sues). This really felt like old-school SPN quality, which is pretty remarkable. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by BabySpinach

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was a good one. I'm more convinced than ever that they are writing to Dean's demise.

Yep. 100% agree with this after seeing the ep.

[Wynne88]

If Dean went to the empty, would he take Michael with him?  I thought maybe that would be how he locked down Michael permanently.

[7kstar]

This one is worth rewatching and gave many strong elements to all actors, which I liked.  Nice to see the show I wanted to watch.  It gave time for the new characters but not in a way that detracted from the main characters.  Nice to see Michael get a surprise he didn't see coming.  I'm glad for one really strong ep, now can they do it again?  This fan would appreciate it if I could be surprised one more time.  :)

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

If Dean went to the empty, would he take Michael with him?  I thought maybe that would be how he locked down Michael permanently.

Ohhhhh. . That makes complete sense! It would also explain his face and Billie's reaction

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

If Dean went to the empty, would he take Michael with him?  I thought maybe that would be how he locked down Michael permanently.

I wish they hadn't revealed the Empty so early in the way they did.  Evidently all one has to do is sing Stairway to Heaven 50 times in a row and the Entity will kick you right back into your old life.  And honestly I can't see Dean being horrified by that idea.  Much like with Sam's decision to sacrifice himself to lock up Lucifer Dean should be just as resolute to achieve his goal of ridding the universe of Michael.

[devlin]

Omg! This ep was fucking brilliant. It was superbly acted, the writing was spot on and it had a great mixture of comedy, drama and action. I loved the bar scenes, it was awesome seeing Pamela, I have always loved the chemistry between her and dean. Michael’s desire to end worlds actually made perfect sense as did his anger at god, it wasn’t some cheaply manufactured whiny daddy issue.

I can’t say enough about Jensen’s portrayal of Michael. It was so clever and subtle. He didn’t fall into the trap of overselling that  this was a bad character. He was cool, calm and collected and dare I say he even slightly brought me over to his side. And it was so not dean! 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Jensen's Cas imitation was fucking hysterical and weirdly dead-on in an exaggerated, caricatured sort of way. That whole scene was gold, and quite satisfying for being one of the few times where a villain mercilessly roasted the absolute shit out of Sam and Cas on Dean's behalf. It's usually Dean who bears the brunt of verbal abuse for being clingy/weak/bloodthirsty while his loved ones are cast to be worthier/more independent. The fact that Michael's takedowns held some degree of truth just made them sting even more. A bit of balance at last

Agreed! This was a long time coming, even if Dean will likely end up apologizing for the words, it was nice for him not to be on the recieving end for once. 

One of my only nitpicks of the Michael/TFW scenes was Michael's version of the reason Dean said yes. I know he was going for the taunt, trying to drive the knife in further, but I hate that it was once again put out there words, with nothing to contradict it. 

[BabySpinach]

I just feel like I need to reiterate this: Dean is trapping the most POWERFUL archangel in his mind on a long-term basis! Cas could only hold back Lucifer for a few seconds in 11.14, and Sam only needed to retake control for a minute or so in 5.22. Damn, I never thought we'd get this under Dabb's reign, but I'll take it all! Give me MOOOAARRRR.

I do wonder if Dean's going to start displaying angelic powers, and I also love that Dean's notebook is the new ongoing mystery for the season. Gosh, it's so fun to speculate future plotlines when I actually like the show!

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I do wonder if Dean's going to start displaying angelic powers, and I also love that Dean's notebook is the new ongoing mystery for the season. Gosh, it's so fun to speculate future plotlines when I actually like the show!

I really hope it isn't resolved in the next episode! 

Spoiler

We know he's 'normal' Dean for the 300th. But it would be amazing if he's able to keep him locked down until the end of the season.

[Female83]

I don't like the AU!hunters but it was a good episode. Good to see Pamela back even if she wasn't the real one. 

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

 

 

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Yockey is a godsend. I could just gush about him and this episode for hours. It's amazing that this show can still have so much momentum and intrigue 14 seasons in (as long as the writing is actually good and we don't waste time on one-dimensional pet Sues). This really felt like old-school SPN quality, which is pretty remarkable. 

Problem is, this should be (used to be, in the olden days) standard for most episodes, not one in 20. Fans shouldn't have to gush over just one single episode. Sorry, but I still can't be bothered to watch every week. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by juppschmitz
messed up what I wanted to quote arrgghhhh

[bethy]

I enjoyed this one, too. I laughed out loud at Michael's comments a couple of time, but especially at his "Seriously?" when Sam, Cas, and Jack kind of shuffled over to the other side of the room after he told them he could hear them. 

The only thing that hit me wrong was Sam saying Dean "thrived" on trauma. I get what they were going for there, but Dean hasn't thrived. No one thrives on trauma. Dean has survived and that's HUGE and a credit to the man he is. But to me, saying he's thrived on the amount of trauma he's suffered diminishes the trauma itself.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, bethy said:

The only thing that hit me wrong was Sam saying Dean "thrived" on trauma. I get what they were going for there, but Dean hasn't thrived. No one thrives on trauma. Dean has survived and that's HUGE and a credit to the man he is. But to me, saying he's thrived on the amount of trauma he's suffered diminishes the trauma itself.

Thank you! I ranted about that on Twitter.

I did like that Cas acknowledged Dean's emotional and mental scars, like literally.

Now, my only headcanon is that was written to show that is Sam's POV without it actually being true. Like maybe it's going to setup something that leads to a legit look into Dean's trauma for Sam to understand that he's just wrong.

[juppschmitz]

Anyone else notice the Impala's old licence plates (KAZ 2Y5) up over the bar?

Steve Yockey IS the best. (Well, if that was his idea, that is.)

[Bobcatkitten]

You guys have said it all. It was a downright amazing episode. 

 

Watching Jensen play Dean and Michael in such different ways in the same episode was an absolute delight. And I can't get over his scared look at the very end. 

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

You guys have said it all. It was a downright amazing episode. 

 

Watching Jensen play Dean and Michael in such different ways in the same episode was an absolute delight. And I can't get over his scared look at the very end. 

[Kanner]

5 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I do wonder if Dean's going to start displaying angelic powers, 

I was wondering the same thing. Even though his consciousness is locked up, Michael's grace is still inside of Dean. How does that work? I would be surprised if they went into it though.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Thank you! I ranted about that on Twitter.

I did like that Cas acknowledged Dean's emotional and mental scars, like literally.

Now, my only headcanon is that was written to show that is Sam's POV without it actually being true. Like maybe it's going to setup something that leads to a legit look into Dean's trauma for Sam to understand that he's just wrong.

I didn't really take it that way. Maybe 'trauma' is the wrong word, but I took it that Dean rises to a challenge. He will fight as long as there is something to fight, and is driven to survive. Not just survive, but save everyone by surviving and fighting. In his mind, he was killing what needed killing, and knew Cas and Sam were out doing the same, so he could 'relax'.  Maybe I was just feeling generous because most of the Dean stuff was amazing, but I wasn't insulted on his behalf over this. In fact, I thought "Sam" was actually saying it as a compliment, something honorable. /rose colored glasses.

[Lady Calypso]

What a great episode to come back to.

The show's strengths lie within keeping their stories intertwined, not having too many characters, and utilizing the main characters that do work and having the guests work to elevate the Winchesters and Cas' stories. 

The AU Hunters was minimal but I still hoped for all of them to get killed off. 

I actually do like Jack, so him getting a wave of his power back doesn't bother me too much. Sam told him to make sure they didn't die and that's what he did. It would have been nice if they had no monsters appear in this episode, but at least it only took up about four minutes of screen time in total. 

Sam and Dean's brotherly relationship is the strongest part of this show, so Sam getting through to Dean was one of the best parts of this season so far. Also, we got double Jensen Ackles! And Michael is trapped in Dean's personal cage! That actually works for me. Michael will pop back out in about seven or eight episodes, but at least we know where he is and it's something that makes sense. 

A very nice episode, one of the better ones in a long time. 

The ending, though. I do question what's in that book but it doesn't seem like it's anything good. 

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I just feel like I need to reiterate this: Dean is trapping the most POWERFUL archangel in his mind on a long-term basis! Cas could only hold back Lucifer for a few seconds in 11.14, and Sam only needed to retake control for a minute or so in 5.22. Damn, I never thought we'd get this under Dabb's reign, but I'll take it all! Give me MOOOAARRRR.

Ant that's why, though I loved the episode, I hate that.  It's super unrealistic.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Ant that's why, though I loved the episode, I hate that.  It's super unrealistic.

But

Spoiler

Since we know that Dean is in a bad place in upcoming episode(s), and they showed Michael continuing to pound on the door, I don't think it's going to last unrealistically long. So yeah, Imma enjoy kickass!Dean while I can. :)

[BabySpinach]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Ant that's why, though I loved the episode, I hate that.  It's super unrealistic.

That's fair. Lord knows I roll my eyes at Super!Sam often enough to understand your perspective. But if anyone is capable of locking down an archangel in their mind, I think it would be Dean. He's pretty much the embodiment of willpower and agency on the show, and Michael is only one of many villains/frenemies who have tried and failed to fully claim him.

Edited January 19, 2019 by BabySpinach

[Aeryn13]

I really enjoyed that. Big win for Yockey. 

Okay, yeah, getting the cuffs on Michael played kinda like I expected but TV (and movies) probably don`t work if villains ever read the Evil Overlord Manifesto and acted accordingly. And Michael was rather jovial about it all. I FLOVED his snark throughout the episode. Jensen was so good, so, so good. 

Dean and Pamela in "Rocky`s" was such fun. Even a cool little fight scene. 

Michael got a really cool motivation here. Ironic that him possessing Dean meant that not only he had to learn that Dean got to talk to Chuck recently but also what Chuck was all about. Alternative worlds as drafts is a neat idea. Man, Michael snapped hardcore. He gives a new meaning to "death of the author". Hee.

So many fun nostalgia bits and little background details in the bar. Kudos to everyone involved. 

I thought Sam and Cas in Dean`s mind was pretty neat actually. I didn`t mind the convo over Dean "thriving" on trauma. Maybe the wording wasn`t the best here but I took it to mean that if Michael had put Dean in hardship, that would have triggered Dean`s fighting responses even harder. Even with the bar, I can picture sales lady as a Michael representative trying to "buy" full ownership of Dean and he.just.wouldn`t.sell. 

The bit with Sam and Cas in the bar, spluttering throughout the loop was funny. 

Michael!Dean is kick-ass even without powers. Neat moves, Jensen. 

And of course Dean coming up with the solution to be the Cage. And to actually make that happen. He is holding back an archangel in his mind now for an unspecified amount of time. Wow. I just loved that this highlighted his strength of mind. And it got verbalized a couple times throughout the episode. Yayyyyyyyy.

The convo with Billy was great as well. Very Dr.Strange of course. It`s pretty perfect. Michael is contained. Dean is still part of the mytharc and they can play with it as much or little as they want during the following episodes. Standalones? No prob.

Michael!Dean being mean kinda reminded me of Angelus from Buffy/Angel. Especially in the episode where they had him caged and he controlled the situation still. This time I didn`t mind the "this is why you said yes" stuff because obviously it wasn`t. I obviously also don`t believe Dean felt nothing for Jack or only felt he owed Cas for stuff years back. Does he view things as a burden sometime? Sure. But he loves those people. 

Okay, the AU hunters were pretty useless. Maggie got put in charge? Good god, there were 30-50 year olds in that group, is noone qualified to lead over the teenager? 

Jack`s powers via soul-burning, okay, convenient but it didn`t detract too much. 

Overall, best episode for Jensen and Dean since, I think, Regarding Dean.     

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought Sam and Cas in Dean`s mind was pretty neat actually. I didn`t mind the convo over Dean "thriving" on trauma. Maybe the wording wasn`t the best here but I took it to mean that if Michael had put Dean in hardship, that would have triggered Dean`s fighting responses even harder. Even with the bar, I can picture sales lady as a Michael representative trying to "buy" full ownership of Dean and he.just.wouldn`t.sell. 

 I fully agree with both of these.  Those were exactly my thoughts while watching.

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought Sam and Cas in Dean`s mind was pretty neat actually. I didn`t mind the convo over Dean "thriving" on trauma. Maybe the wording wasn`t the best here but I took it to mean that if Michael had put Dean in hardship, that would have triggered Dean`s fighting responses even harder.

Hopefully this occurs to Michael.  Where he realizes the harder he fights the more Dean will resist, so Michael just stops fighting and sits contently, hoping to catch Dean in a moment of weakness before escaping. 

It's also a more realistic way for Dean to contain Michael long term, rather than making him SuperDean, if Michael is just sitting quietly, waiting or the perfect opportunity.

Edited January 18, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Commando Cody]

I suppose it's only a matter of time until Jack goes to the dark side. 

It didn't look like that shaky screwdriver would hold Michael for long. It seemed like they had a little time, they could have secured the door a little better. 

I never liked Pamela, didn't need to see her, but at least they weren't having some sort of fling. I still think junior hunter (can't remember her name) was bad casting. She is, weakly, trying to lead the troops. I figured the guy going into the woods alone, would be compromised. I'm also disappointed in how weak the door getting into the bunker is.  It seems like, if the bunker was a real place, I could walk into it with no problem. Who doesn't know about the bunker and how to get into it now?

Despite a couple of flaws, this was a really good episode. I enjoyed watching Dean as Michael. The story is good. Jack, mostly, shooting his soul to save people is going to lead to more drama after it's gone. I have to admit though, I'm not really looking forward to dark Jack. After he gets it back, there is going to be the remorse and redemption arc with a depressed Jack and the others trying to convince him that "it wasn't him".  I didn't see Dean as the cage coming. I thought that was a good twist. 

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I suppose it's only a matter of time until Jack goes to the dark side. 

I would be down with that if he would stay evil, but they'll have to "fix" him, give him talk therapy, whatever.

 

27 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I never liked Pamela, didn't need to see her, but at least they weren't having some sort of fling.

I've never understood the fascination with her.  She's OK, but I wasn't really clamoring to see her again after 9 seasons of absence.  It was completely random.  Which I do think worked for the dream angle.

 

28 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I'm also disappointed in how weak the door getting into the bunker is.  It seems like, if the bunker was a real place, I could walk into it with no problem. Who doesn't know about the bunker and how to get into it now?

Anything can get in and has been.  Although, to be fair, IIRC, Maggie put Tiger in charge of locking the place down and he didn't.  Plus, Michael sent out  bat signal so they could find him.

 

29 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I still think junior hunter (can't remember her name) was bad casting. She is, weakly, trying to lead the troops.

I like Maggie, and I don't think it's bad casting, I think it's bad execution.  Those people in the AU had supposedly been fighting an angel war for years.  Maggie's great at being a newbie.  The question that makes no sense is why was she leading?

[ahrtee]

My only "huh?" moment was:  Dean's perfect dream, the thing he's always wanted, is a bar playing *country music*?  (Does that mean that he just adopted John's love of classic rock and deep down he didn't like it?)  I know it was a nod to FBBC, but it still was jarring to me.  :)

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've never understood the fascination with her.  She's OK, but I wasn't really clamoring to see her again after 9 seasons of absence.  It was completely random.  Which I do think worked for the dream angle.

I think it worked when you go back to her being the one at Ash's bar in Heaven in DSOTM as well.

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My only "huh?" moment was:  Dean's perfect dream, the thing he's always wanted, is a bar playing *country music*?  (Does that mean that he just adopted John's love of classic rock and deep down he didn't like it?)  I know it was a nod to FBBC, but it still was jarring to me.  :)

Maybe it's his fascination with all things cowboy?

[Bobcatkitten]

Pamela was fine but I think it would have made more sense to be Jo. 

[Wateroflife]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

My only "huh?" moment was:  Dean's perfect dream, the thing he's always wanted, is a bar playing *country music*?  (Does that mean that he just adopted John's love of classic rock and deep down he didn't like it?)  I know it was a nod to FBBC, but it still was jarring to me.  :)

That was The Marshall Tucker Band, I think. Some of their songs have a definite country sound (Fire on the Mountain is an awesome example), but they would be classified as Southern Rock (a la Creedence). I think they'd be in Dean's wheelhouse, but I also think he would agree with me that, although they are awesome, the use of rock flute is an abomination.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Wateroflife
Couldn't resist adding a plug for my favorite MTB song

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Pamela was fine but I think it would have made more sense to be Jo. 

I think if they'd gone with Jo, they would've had to go the romance route, and they  probably don't want to open that can of worms. I know I don't. *g*

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It didn't look like that shaky screwdriver would hold Michael for long.

I kinda like the image of the screwdriver. Since Dean is now literally the firewall Chuck spoke about, something about the image of a sturdy screwdriver holding back Michael is just so...Dean.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I kinda like the image of the screwdriver. Since Dean is now literally the firewall Chuck spoke about, something about the image of a sturdy screwdriver holding back Michael is just so...Dean.  

Or a sonic screwdriver. Heh.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think they could have just been flirty like they were before. It never went anywhere. 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

The AU Hunters was minimal but I still hoped for all of them to get killed off. 

This made me LOL. 

I think I might even have said it out loud to just the tv.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I really enjoyed that. Big win for Yockey. 

Okay, yeah, getting the cuffs on Michael played kinda like I expected but TV (and movies) probably don`t work if villains ever read the Evil Overlord Manifesto and acted accordingly.

Dean and Pamela in "Rocky`s" was such fun. Even a cool little fight scene. 

Michael got a really cool motivation here. Ironic that him possessing Dean meant that not only he had to learn that Dean got to talk to Chuck recently but also what Chuck was all about. Alternative worlds as drafts is a neat idea. Man, Michael snapped hardcore. He gives a new meaning to "death of the author". Hee.

So many fun nostalgia bits and little background details in the bar. Kudos to everyone involved. 

I thought Sam and Cas in Dean`s mind was pretty neat actually. I didn`t mind the convo over Dean "thriving" on trauma. Maybe the wording wasn`t the best here but I took it to mean that if Michael had put Dean in hardship, that would have triggered Dean`s fighting responses even harder. Even with the bar, I can picture sales lady as a Michael representative trying to "buy" full ownership of Dean and he.just.wouldn`t.sell. 

The bit with Sam and Cas in the bar, spluttering throughout the loop was funny. 

Michael!Dean is kick-ass even without powers. Neat moves, Jensen. 

And of course Dean coming up with the solution to be the Cage. And to actually make that happen. He is holding back an archangel in his mind now for an unspecified amount of time. Wow. I just loved that this highlighted his strength of mind. And it got verbalized a couple times throughout the episode. Yayyyyyyyy.

The convo with Billy was great as well. Very Dr.Strange of course. It`s pretty perfect. Michael is contained. Dean is still part of the mytharc and they can play with it as much or little as they want during the following episodes. Standalones? No prob.

Michael!Dean being mean kinda reminded me of Angelus from Buffy/Angel. Especially in the episode where they had him caged and he controlled the situation still. This time I didn`t mind the "this is why you said yes" stuff because obviously it wasn`t. I obviously also don`t believe Dean felt nothing for Jack or only felt he owed Cas for stuff years back. Does he view things as a burden sometime? Sure. But he loves those people. 

Okay, the AU hunters were pretty useless. Maggie got put in charge? Good god, there were 30-50 year olds in that group, is noone qualified to lead over the teenager? 

Jack`s powers via soul-burning, okay, convenient but it didn`t detract too much. 

Overall, best episode for Jensen and Dean since, I think, Regarding Dean.     

But all of this for me, too. Every word. So much.

I just re-watched it and I'm still giggling at "Don't forget to put a chair up against the door..." :-D

[PAForrest]

For once I was really itching to get a chance to catch up with the episode this morning, since I can't watch it on Thursday nights. I heard overwhelmingly good things for a change, and for the most part Yockey didn't disappoint. Clearly he's the best writer on staff, and he's apparently the only writer who really digs Dean and likes giving Jensen the acting chances he so very much deserves but so rarely gets anymore. Bottom line, when you don't put Jensen/Dean in a corner, the episode is elevated immeasurably.

I remember at the beginning of the season we speculated/hoped Michael was still inside of Dean laying low. Dabb was so insistent that wasn't the case, and he was right; but apparently now it seems that the fan base simply got ahead of itself. Michael is trapped, Dean is the cage - albeit likely a temporary one - and now we have a party.

Of course, I loved everything to do with Dean's fantasy, all the Easter eggs that went along with it, and including Pamela Barnes was for me a delicious bonus. I always liked Pamela, and I thought she and Dean had some mad chemistry then and now. Sure, Jo or even Ellen would have been a solid addition too, but Dean and Pamela had a sassy spark that was hard to beat.

It was incredibly refreshing - as weird as that sounds - to have Castiel reference all of the trauma Dean has suffered over his lifetime. That was a nice touch because, again, it's so very rare that Dean's trauma ever gets referenced or noticed by anyone on this show. The writers are always too busy jumping through hoops to talk about Sam's trauma or Castiel's or Jack's or Mary's or the mailman's or pretty much anyone and everyone else except for Dean, which has always been ridiculous and a huge source of frustration. Though what I thought would have worked really well in that scene is if when Sam told Cas to look for Dean's good memories, they discovered there were almost none, and that was why the fake contentment was so easy to track.

I didn't like Billie when she she was first introduced, especially when I loved the original Death so much; but over time she's grown into the role, made it her own, and now I like her a lot. Obviously I'm very curious what the book had to say.

My only nits are these: 1) How super easy it was to trap Michael. Anything they did there was going to be too easy and not worthy of the archangel Michael is supposed to be.

2) The time spent with the AU hunter pack, especially with Maggie leading the charge, mostly bored me. Maggie especially comes off so weak and fragile that I simply can't believe in her as the hunter leader - I find it all very annoying.

3) Jack's story is clearly mirroring Sam's in seasons 3/4 - he's going to continue to use his powers even though everyone says "stop", and he's going to end up gray or darkside at some point. Predictable.

All in all, though, not just the best episode of the season, but one of the best in the last few years.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Though what I thought would have worked really well in that scene is if when Sam told Cas to look for Dean's good memories, they discovered there were almost none, and that was why the fake contentment was so easy to track.

It was telling though that they were as simple as pie.

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

My only nits are these: 1) How super easy it was to trap Michael. Anything they did there was going to be too easy and not worthy of the archangel Michael is supposed to be.

I did wonder why there was no damage to Michael or even to his suit after being holy-fire-bombed. I wonder if the fizzling angel-eyes were supposed to be what fixed him up with what power he could still generate?

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I did wonder why there was no damage to Michael or even to his suit after being holy-fire-bombed. I wonder if the fizzling angel-eyes were supposed to be what fixed him up with what power he could still generate?

There didn't appear to be any damage to Adam/Michael when he was holy-fire-bombed, either.  I don't think it's ever been meant to be a permanent damage thing.  More along the  lines of shooting a ghost with rock salt.  Before someone brings up Abaddon's vessel being damaged, she's a demon, not an angel.

[Lemuria]

2 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I suppose it's only a matter of time until Jack goes to the dark side. 

Yay.  It might finally make him interesting instead of being one-note, bland, boring, and without nuance or layers--except, of course, we know it won't last and then he'll just be coddled and told how special he is even more.  There's always a downside, isn't there?

2 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I still think junior hunter (can't remember her name) was bad casting. She is, weakly, trying to lead the troops.

I'm not one who thought they did a good job with Chief the Leader to begin with (they had him prioritizing badly, failing to delegate--suggesting he didn't trust anyone in his crew--and exhausting himself as a result, making bad decisions and not making some tough ones etc) but this whole thing with Maggie was absurd.  I'm assuming the show decided to use her because she was the only one of the AU hunters (I'm not counting Gigolo Bobby) that the viewing audience could tell apart from everyone else but in story terms, it was ridiculous for her to be put in charge.  And you could tell that she felt completely out of her depth in dealing with the monsters.

I am grateful, though, that the AU hunters didn't just roll over Michael's enhanced critters.  In fact, they didn't do particularly well at all.  

I did find it amusing that they were really great at hitting the railings in the bunker.  Just not the monsters actually walking past them!  Back to the firing range for them.  LOL

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

My only "huh?" moment was:  Dean's perfect dream, the thing he's always wanted, is a bar playing *country music*?  (Does that mean that he just adopted John's love of classic rock and deep down he didn't like it?)  I know it was a nod to FBBC, but it still was jarring to me.  :)

Maybe it wasn't Dean's perfect dream, just something Michael believed would keep Dean quiet and occupied.  It also needed to be something that Dean might consider selling:  I think that if he ever signed those papers, he would never have been able to control Michael.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Lemuria

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It was telling though that they were as simple as pie.

Cas turns on the bad memories, everyone is bombarded with screams and horror and the dialogue basically turns to "oh god, can we take a short-cut here, I don`t want to go through all this misery" by Cas. Then he turns on the good memories and 0.3 seconds later, they have identified the one that never even happened. 

[Wateroflife]

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This made me LOL. 

I think I might even have said it out loud to just the tv.

I did the same thing, except it was during the scene when Michael told Jack what a lame burden he is that nobody wanted. Ha ha, truth hurts don't it! Suck it, Jack!

[Aeryn13]

Btw, when Michael was going on about how his world and their world were abandoned drafts by Chuck, did anyone think Cas made a face like "but...but...that can`t be true, we got published." I giggled.  

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Michael keeps calling Dean pretty, and I am 100% here for it. Good to know he appreciates the hotness of his perfect vessel.

Jensen's Cas imitation was fucking hysterical and weirdly dead-on in an exaggerated, caricatured sort of way. That whole scene was gold, and quite satisfying for being one of the few times where a villain mercilessly roasted the absolute shit out of Sam and Cas on Dean's behalf. It's usually Dean who bears the brunt of verbal abuse for being clingy/weak/bloodthirsty while his loved ones are cast to be worthier/more independent. The fact that Michael's takedowns held some degree of truth just made them sting even more. A bit of balance at last! 

His comments on Jack tickled me as well. Finally, someone says something mean to Nougat Boy and doesn't fall at his feet in worship! Finally, someone implies how spoiled and coddled he is, and how aggressively he was shoved into our faces. 

This is the kind of material that should have been present at the beginning of the season. The central story of 14.10 could have happened much earlier, since nothing really changed with Dean and Michael between the first possession and the second. Better late than never, I suppose, and I'm certainly not complaining about what we got! 

ETA: Jensen leaping over that bar at the beginning was a thing of beauty. Always appreciate his impressive displays of athleticism. His fighting was amazing as always, especially as Michael.

Also a great element of the episode: multiple canon declarations that Dean was strong/more than strong, plus some cool insight into his psyche on how he "thrives" on trauma.

I love that Michael loves his Perfect Vessel.

And Dean coming over that bar, machete in hand?-that's seared into my brain now. 

Dean and Michael!Dean lit up the screen in this one for me and all the Dean support from the writing was such a welcome surprise.

[PAForrest]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was telling though that they were as simple as pie.

There definitely weren't as many of the good memories as the bad ones, which knowing Dean is extremely believable.

[ZennyKenny]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Holy shit. Holy shit. Holy shit. I am legit impressed.

Thank you, Steve Yockey for giving Jensen something good to work with.

All the awards to Jensen, right fucking meow.

You ain't kitten around, he deserves it!

[SueB]

Well THAT was awesome.  Heading to the airport and will watch again on the plane.  TOO much good stuff going down.  So many mysteries. I'll post more complete thought later.

One quick comment: I think it's safe to say "Michael" is still the Big Bad of the season and I don't see it changing anytime soon. The events of this episode set up the rest of the year IMO.

Edited January 18, 2019 by SueB

[S Cook Productions]

16 hours ago, Katy M said:

I forgot to mention something else I loved.  MIchael's impression of Castiel saying that he gripped Dean tight and pulled him from perdition.  That was so spot on.

Yes this lol. 

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Though what I thought would have worked really well in that scene is if when Sam told Cas to look for Dean's good memories, they discovered there were almost none, and that was why the fake contentment was so easy to track.

I can see that perspective, but I'm gad they didn't go more this way, because one of the characteristics I like most about Dean is his way to find good in the smallest things - and to be genuinely happy about those small things. For me it's what makes Dean continuing on in hunting - and life in general - make sense.

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It was telling though that they were as simple as pie.

I'm going to go with the less depressing idea that 1) Castiel was looking at Dean's most recent good memories first and 2) That Sam was familiar enough with a lot of Dean's good memories (They have to pass their time driving doing something, and I like to imagine that Dean shares sometimes... and they've been together for a while now so he knows what Dean does now.) or is familiar enough with what Dean would find as a good memory that he was able to find the false one.

That said:

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then he turns on the good memories and 0.3 seconds later, they have identified the one that never even happened. 

The episode still gave Dean's trauma its due in making it clear that finding it in the good memories wasn't as difficult as one would expect.

12 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I am grateful, though, that the AU hunters didn't just roll over Michael's enhanced critters.  In fact, they didn't do particularly well at all. 

I knew they wouldn't do that well, and they hardly saved anyone who was target by the monsters either, because the objective wasn't to kill, but to turn which was probably a more covert type operation - as opposed to chaos and destruction which would have been easier to track down.