The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Bruinsfan]

11 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Ross didn't want compromise.  He wanted control.   

I'll go further and say he wanted a pseudo-legal excuse to justify putting any enhanced individuals that weren't loyal to him away in his floating prison (that you'll note was fully operational within a couple of days of the Avengers being notified of the Sokovia Accords, with the freakin' Secretary of State neglecting his actual political duties to hang out there playing warden) as soon as they stepped one toe over the line. Ross' obsession just expanded from the Hulk to encompass all superhumans that weren't created by the US Army.

[Dandesun]

I still stand by the idea that Steve wasn't entirely wrong when he said 'the safest hands are still our own' and that all comes from what we have seen throughout the course of the MCU as a whole. You had the World Security Council decide that nuking New York was a better option than anything else. And let's be clear; it would not have worked. The only thing that worked was going through the wyrmhole that was shielded from everything save itself and blowing up the mothership or whatever. Wiping New York off the face of the planet wouldn't have closed the wyrmhole, it would have cleared up the one place the Chitauri were fighting and allowed them to move on. So the people in charge got that one wrong and would have killed millions of people in one go.

Iron Man 3 had the Vice-President working with a terrorist organization. He may have been doing it for what he felt were the right reasons but it did almost wind up assassinating the POTUS. So, yeah, top member of the United States government colluding with terrorists for a pipe dream cure for his daughter? grand-daughter? and Extremis was clearly not a safe thing at all given what we saw in that movie. It turned humans into bombs... and most of those humans were wounded veterans. I mean, that whole scenario was fucked up and the Vice-President was a part of it.

Hydra taking over SHIELD. Project Insight wiping out 750,000 people at a time... including the POTUS (again), Tony Stark, Bruce, Dr. Strange and any number of other potential good guys out there. SHIELD was... well, is it an international organization or an American one? Sometimes it's hard to be certain but let's say it's a world-wide organization that's meant to police and safeguard the world. Oops. Completely infiltrated and corrupted. Actively working to murder anyone that gets in the way of it's Grand Vision of Order. Say what you will about vigilantism and all that but... the Avengers are the only ones who've saved the world on more than one occasion and Ross waltzes in and uses that as a means of blaming them for it.

I empathized with Tony... to a point. All of his copious issues were raining down on him and he just. couldn't. do. it. anymore... I got that... but he didn't even turn to the others and say 'there's been a lot of mishaps and maybe we could do with some over-sight, what do you guys think about it?' He just came in with Ross with his mind already made up and wanting everyone else to agree. Steve wasn't even the first one to say no (he was reading the Accords) -- it was SAM. Sam does not have a serum that makes him The Symbol of Goodest Good Guy that Ever Gooded. Sam's a regular dude with a jetpack who served his country and became a counselor and is pretty fucking level headed by everything we've ever seen of him and HE is the one who was first against it all. Because the Accords were fucked up beyond all measure and Tony was done with it all and didn't care about anything but handing over the blame to someone else.

And, again, I get where Tony's head space was... but given that particular head space, he had no business making decisions like that for the rest of the team especially since he had put himself into 'non-combative status' after Ultron. Someone came at him about Ultron and he wanted someone to shoulder his burden and decided for everyone else, too. And that's Tony. He's got an 'I know best' streak a mile long. Maybe that's why he and Steve clash so much. Steve's got it, too.

But really... Ross? I'm still not convinced he isn't Hydra.

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I'm thinking a lot of the blame for that falls on the mercenaries, especially the one who set off a bomb in a crowd -- who, lest we forget, were stealing a biological weapon.  They don't tend to do that just for the experience.

200 pages of control would be too much for a lot of people.  It was also too much for Tony -- he was perfectly ready to evade control when it suited him.  If Tony was so accepting of the accords, why didn't he make Peter Parker subject to them?

Here's something about Wanda's situation -- no one told her she was under house arrest; she had to find out.  Did Tony have the authority to detain her?  And if she's being detained, why hasn't she been notified and told why?  Does she have the right to counsel?  Has she been charged with anything?

Blame doesn't have to be measured out in percentages here. Crossbones, his men, and his employer are absolutely to blame for what happened, but the Avengers can absolutely be blamed for how they handled the situation and what their handling of it lead to without it absolving crossbones one bit.

If the Avengers don't engage Crossbones, he doesn't set off the bomb. They made the call to engage him and pursue. If they work with the local authorities, the local police would have added to their number and they may have been able to cut off the escape for Crossbones and his men before they could get into the middle of a crowded market. They might have chose to evacuate the area, and then the bomb going off would have just been property damage. Maybe a Nigerian police sniper isn't distracted by talk of Bucky, clocks the bomb, and puts a bullet in Crossbones' head before he can set it off.

They made the call that having he element of surprise and chance to capture Crossbones was worth risking the lives of innocent civilians (and the faux CDC employees). The problem is that they have no authority to make that call and because the Avengers chose not to work with the local authorities, the fallout is on them.

[ChelseaNH]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

she was "only" being 'detained' as opposed to detained, if that makes sense

In legal circles, holding someone against their will is called kidnapping.  Deciding that you know what's best for them and that you get to run their lives?  Only if they're your minor children, and even then there are limits.

[ChelseaNH]

5 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

They made the call that having he element of surprise and chance to capture Crossbones was worth risking the lives of innocent civilians (and the faux CDC employees).

They didn't know what the target was ahead of time, so they didn't have enough information to control escape routes.  Evacuating the area means tipping off the bad guys that you know where they are, which means the bad guys come up with a different plan that you might not find out about.  Not pursuing means letting the bad guys escape with a biological weapon.  All operations have risks.

[Perfect Xero]

3 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

They didn't know what the target was ahead of time, so they didn't have enough information to control escape routes.  Evacuating the area means tipping off the bad guys that you know where they are, which means the bad guys come up with a different plan that you might not find out about.  Not pursuing means letting the bad guys escape with a biological weapon.  All operations have risks.

And those are calls that the Avengers have no authority to make and lives that they have no right to choose to put at risk and an operation that they had no legal authority to run.

If they go to the authorities the authorities might come back and say that the faux CDC is his most likely target in the area. Or if they'd been on alert for trouble in the area they may have had time to close on the area and block escape routes while the Avengers were initially engaging them.

We don't know. The Avengers never gave them the chance to protect themselves and their people. They sneaked in on their jet and made all the choices themselves about whose lives were worth putting at risk and decided that they were capable of protecting all of those lives themselves. That puts all of those lives on their hands.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

I still stand by the idea that Steve wasn't entirely wrong when he said 'the safest hands are still our own' and that all comes from what we have seen throughout the course of the MCU as a whole.

A few things, just in general:

Nick Fury is the one who first tells Steve about the Insight program, and then he tells him the story of his grandfather, who "loved people, but didn't trust them very much." Nick also seemed pretty convinced that Insight was not a terrible idea, although once he realized that SHIELD had been compromised he reluctantly goes along with Cap's insistence that both it and Hydra need to be taken down. So SHIELD's hands weren't safe because of Hydra.

I've covered the thing with the World Security Council being willing to nuke civilians during the New York fight, and Insight was actually a response to that in addition to the Phase Two project. And Phase Two might have worked if Loki hadn't showed up and stolen the Tesseract for his own purposes, but we'll never know if it would or wouldn't have.

During Age of Ultron, Tony and Steve have an argument over Stark electing not to tell anyone about deciding to proceed with his work in developing  a suit of armor to put around the world. Understandably pissed, Cap says that he was doing something that would affect the team, and Tony retorts that he was doing something to end the team.

"Isn't that the point, the 'why we fight', so that we can end the fight, so that we get to go home?!"

Except, well, IMO Steve doesn't want to go home, only that's something I'm not even sure he's aware of. He avoids dating because he's "too busy", and he drops everything to chase after Bucky at least partly because Barnes is the last remnant of when his life was a lot simpler. He might give lip service to being the king of waiting too long, as he does with Bruce in AoU, but I don't think he's actively interested in anything outside of the fight to keep the world safe. Which...fair enough, but I think that willingness to continue running around cleaning up other people's messes indicates a deeper problem which has yet to be touched on. Maybe he's not entirely saying "leave this job to us" because he really thinks their hands are the safest, since Tony is usually directly involved in whatever went wrong. Maybe he's saying it because he really can't live without a war.

[Dandesun]

Oh, Steve's got a fuckton of issues, no question. He went from a guy with so many ailments and physical issues it was a wonder he was able to get out of bed to a guy who can seemingly do anything. And after being a near invalid for the majority of his life and just wanting to be useful he now is useful but all he knows how to be at this point is a soldier. I mean, a soldier really fucking bad at following orders but a soldier nonetheless. Sam wasn't wrong when he told Steve that he could do anything he wanted but I think a guy who was so focused on being some use to the world has a hard time getting out of that mindset... especially when he's had some significant success when dealing with armies from outer space, Norse gods, Hydra and really fucking angry robots.

Steve's in need of therapy just as badly as Tony is. And it's interesting that Tony mentioned in Civil War that Pepper left him because he wouldn't give it up. Tony seems as unwilling to live without a war as Steve. They're two sides of the same coin. Tony's brilliant and has created methods of new clean energy and amazing tech and Steve could go out and build houses and offer relief during natural disasters and any number of things but they are both too willing to continue putting on the suits and repulsor ray and shield fling until the end of time.

Such is the life of comic book characters... they tend not to retire. They die... and then get resurrected and continue the fight.

[Wynterwolf]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'll go further and say he wanted a pseudo-legal excuse to justify putting any enhanced individuals that weren't loyal to him away in his floating prison

 

6 hours ago, Dandesun said:

But really... Ross? I'm still not convinced he isn't Hydra.

Yes.

40 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Such is the life of comic book characters... they tend not to retire. They die... and then get resurrected and continue the fight.

**daydreams some more about Stealth!Steve**

[ChelseaNH]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

If they go to the authorities the authorities might come back and say that the faux CDC is his most likely target in the area.

What information do the authorities have access to that SHIELD does not?

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Or if they'd been on alert for trouble in the area they may have had time to close on the area and block escape routes while the Avengers were initially engaging them.

The timing doesn't work out unless they're already in position, and doing that can easily tip off the bad guys on the alert for an organized response, especially if they're monitoring the police band.

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

They sneaked in on their jet and made all the choices themselves about whose lives were worth putting at risk

The mercenaries determined which lives were put at risk by their choice of target.  It's unlikely the team decided they could protect everyone who was at risk, because that's stupid.  Anyone who tells you they can guarantee people's safety in a violent conflict is either lying or delusional.

Meanwhile, involving the authorities means getting a meeting with someone in a position of authority, briefing them on what you know about the situation, persuading them to accept the threat as credible, repeat as necessary working your way up the chain of command until you get to a person who can make commitments at the level required, coming to an agreement about the parameters of the threat, coming to an agreement about the best response to the threat, obtaining the resources to implement that response, briefing the resources on their roles in the operation and putting those resources into position, all the while hoping that nothing leaks to the press.  And that's just one organization; if you wind up dealing with overlapping jurisdictions, you might as well just give up.  They can be very effective at responding to active threats, but planning an operation in advance is so full of what-ifs that decision-making drags.

[Perfect Xero]

2 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

What information do the authorities have access to that SHIELD does not?

SHIELD no longer exists so ...

Quote

The timing doesn't work out unless they're already in position, and doing that can easily tip off the bad guys on the alert for an organized response, especially if they're monitoring the police band.

They'll never know because the Avengers didn't give them the chance.

Quote

The mercenaries determined which lives were put at risk by their choice of target.  It's unlikely the team decided they could protect everyone who was at risk, because that's stupid.  Anyone who tells you they can guarantee people's safety in a violent conflict is either lying or delusional.

Meanwhile, involving the authorities means getting a meeting with someone in a position of authority, briefing them on what you know about the situation, persuading them to accept the threat as credible, repeat as necessary working your way up the chain of command until you get to a person who can make commitments at the level required, coming to an agreement about the parameters of the threat, coming to an agreement about the best response to the threat, obtaining the resources to implement that response, briefing the resources on their roles in the operation and putting those resources into position, all the while hoping that nothing leaks to the press.  And that's just one organization; if you wind up dealing with overlapping jurisdictions, you might as well just give up.  They can be very effective at responding to active threats, but planning an operation in advance is so full of what-ifs that decision-making drags.

So it's basically the same reasoning that Tony used in AoU when he decided that there was no time for opening things up for debate by looping in the rest of the team?

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

SHIELD no longer exists so ...

They'll never know because the Avengers didn't give them the chance.

So it's basically the same reasoning that Tony used in AoU when he decided that there was no time for opening things up for debate by looping in the rest of the team?

"Its All Connected" Agents of SHIELD fan here. At the time SHIELD was a black ops intelligence arm of the American ATCU Advanced Threat Containment Unit, tasked with controlling mostly Inhumans. . While Hydra was no longer their focus after The Avengers raid on the "the last base" in Age of Ultron". So they existed but had no reason to have perfect knowledge of a recovering Hydra assets turned mercenary that the Avengers were still chasing down. And the MCU  US President Ellis was about to go public bring SHIELD back into the light only to have Life Model Decoys take over kill the Director and bomb their base making SHIELD not a thing again by the season cliffhanger.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Raja

[ChelseaNH]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

SHIELD no longer exists so ...

There's the Stark private model analog.

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

They'll never know because the Avengers didn't give them the chance.

Setting up a roadblock and evacuating civilians are things that have been done before.  They might not know exactly how long it will take, but they know it can't be done in under three minutes.

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

So it's basically the same reasoning that Tony used in AoU when he decided that there was no time for opening things up for debate by looping in the rest of the team?

Looping in the team is not the same operational load as dealing with layers of bureaucracy, and Tony wasn't dealing with the same time constraints.  In any tradeoff, you weigh the costs and opportunities of each option in order to decide; the costs and opportunities of dealing with a mercenary attack are not remotely the same as creating fully sentient AI.

[tennisgurl]

Its not that the Accords themselves are a bad idea in theory,and I think the Avengers coordinating with local police and governments is a good idea, as it could reduce casualties among both civilians and suspects, and would possibility avoid future legal or liability issues. BUT, the way it was put fourth, and the fact that general Ross was the driving force behind it, makes it totally understandable why so many of the gang would have serious reservations at best, or see it as being exploitative and fascist at worst. It could so easily become a cheap tool for people to advance their own goals with the help of their own personnel human nuke army (yeah the UN might technically call the shots, but it really seemed like the whole thing was Ross and Tony's baby, and Ross is clearly a guy who sees enhanced humans as weapons to be used or destroyed, and Tony is doing this at least partially to ease his massive guilt complex), or a way to find and control all enhanced humans, aliens, magic, and advanced tech so that the people involved can be controlled and used, and if they arent cool with that> Off to super prison without any kind of trail or legal process. 

And, I would like to mention that, Steve was totally alright with coming to the table to discuss the Accords for awhile there. His first thought was a strong Hell No, but later on, when Tony made his case, he seemed like he was seriously considering signing if the UN was alright with changing some things to protect the rights of enhanced humans and superheroes as well as giving them more oversight,. If Tony hadn't locked Wanda up, without even talking to her, he probably would have negotiated and this whole thing could have ended peacefully. Yeah Wanda has a lot of power, but she is still a person, and you cant lock a person up who hasn't actually broken any laws (and I dont think she did) or who isn't an active danger to herself and others. And what does her being a non US citizen have to do with basically kidnapping her? Am I allowed to lock up my buddy from the UK when he comes to visit Kentucky because he isn't a US citizen? How does that seem legit? And it just continues to set a prescient where superheroes or people with powers are treated like weapons (complete with being locked up for "glitching") and not like people. I do not think Tony really thought about that, but Ross sure as Hell did. 

Steve can certainly be stubborn, a little judgmental, and when it comes to Bucky he has a serious blind spot, but he wasn't wrong when he said Bucky isn't at fault for what he did as the Winter Soldier, that he was being set up and unfairly scapegoated, and he seemed to be willing to compromise with Tony until Tony locked Wanda up, seemingly confirming that this was going to lead to abuse and exploitation of his team, and super people in general. So, while I think Steve could have been more open from the start, I think Tony is the one who escalated things. Of course, I think the real villain in all that was Ross, who was probably manipulating Tony's massive guilt issues, and was using the Accords as an excuse to have his own list of superhero at his beck and call, so I can only hope he gets his at some point in this franchise. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Steve can certainly be stubborn, a little judgmental

A little?

"Boy, you just can't stop yourself from lying, can you?" To Nick in Winter Soldier[/b] over Fury not telling him about Natasha's extra duties in the mission to rescue those hostages, including Jasper Sitwell, who BTW turned out to be Hydra.

Natasha: "Where did you get it?" re the flash drive Nick gave Steve just before Barnes tried to finish the job of killing him
Steve: "Why would I tell you?"
Natasha: "Fury gave it to you. Why?"
Steve: "What's on it?"
Nat: "I don't know."
Steve: "Stop lying!"

"Every time somebody tries to win a war before it starts, innocent people die. Every time." To Tony, obviously, in Age of Ultron.

Whether or not he was correct isn't the issue for me. Cap is, in fact, quite happy to call others out on their ish while never acknowledging his own issues, and in that way he isn't unlike Tony. But the narrative is different for him, particularly within the fandom, which is a separate peeve of mine. If Steve's hiding things and keeping his own counsel, he usually ends up being right, the way he was right not to completely trust Pierce in WS, oddly enough because Nick who "can't stop himself from lying" told him to trust no one. If it had been Tony, not opening up lines of communication would be presented as a major character flaw on his part, as in AoU. It's almost like if Stark's not an utter failure and fuckup, Steve's automatically less awesome, and I don't know why it should have to be a contest.

 

2 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Setting up a roadblock and evacuating civilians are things that have been done before.  They might not know exactly how long it will take, but they know it can't be done in under three minutes.

Looping in the team is not the same operational load as dealing with layers of bureaucracy, and Tony wasn't dealing with the same time constraints.

Well, they had pretty tight time constraints in Sokovia, and Steve is the one who insists that he wasn't leaving until all the civilians had been evacuated.

Nat: "Everyone up here versus everyone down there? There's no math there."
Cap: "I'm not leaving until every civilian is off this rock."

Noble or suicidal? Either? Both? I don't think even Stark has an on-again off-again death wish.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Dandesun]

Oh no question Steve definitely has something of a death wish and it's exacerbated by several things through the course of his life. He starts out as a guy who probably isn't going to reach the age of 30 given the sheer magnitude of physical ailments and the economic status he lived in. So what does he want to do? Go out in a way that might actually mean something... I honestly feel that's one of his driving forces for continuously breaking the law as he attempted to enlist. He didn't want to die freezing in a Brooklyn tenement. He wanted to die giving his life for something that mattered. And, honestly, I don't know that that mindset ever fully left him. Hell, the entirety of Winter Soldier is Steve basically saying 'I'm not going out their way... I'm going out my way.' You know, until the end when it's 'If I can't get through to Bucky, then I'll die under his fists... that's totally acceptable."

In the MCU, Steve's father died in The Great War... you could certainly argue that Steve would want to live up to that when he was poor, small and sickly. That thread could easily still be in him and, you know, the obvious PTSD and clinical depression that follows him around. To go down in the line of duty? Yeah, by this point, I'm fairly certain that Steve has convinced himself that he will never die quietly and peacefully in his own bed.

Most characters in the MCU could benefit from a shit ton of therapy. But Bruce is not that kind of doctor and Sam has no time for that.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Dandesun

[benteen]

Hiring a nut like Ross is a clear indication that the government wasn't taking this seriously.  Ross caused the whole incident with the Abomination in Harlem, which should have disqualified him and gotten him thrown out of the military.  It didn't help that Tony got into bed with him too at the end of the Hulk movie.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

If it had been Tony, not opening up lines of communication would be presented as a major character flaw on his part, as in AoU. It's almost like if Stark's not an utter failure and fuckup, Steve's automatically less awesome, and I don't know why it should have to be a contest.

Eh, I think that might be more of a fandom thing than a part of the narrative. I guess you could make the case that the movies tend to highlight the flaws in Tony more than the flaws in Steve, and maybe they do, its just that Tony's flaws tend to create bigger problems than Steve's do. Tony keeps accidentally creating super villains and big problems, and, while he seems to be slowly learning his lessons, he still has a long way to go before he really deals with his issues, even if theyve caused massive amounts of damage. Steve hates when people lie to him or manipulate him, even if its for a good (ish) reason, and he can lash out, and when he gets an idea of what needs doing, it does take him awhile for him to change his mind on people or things, and, yes, I think it would be good if more characters called him out on those tendencies. But, I take issue with the idea that Tony is always trashed and Steve is always a saint. While not as frequently as Tony, people do tell Steve when he is acting hardheaded, and Tony has gotten away with some REALLY questionable stuff, that is basically glossed over by the narrative, especially with Spiderman. He first brought teenage Peter Parker into a foreign country to fight for him in a battle that Peter clearly did not understand (in Homecoming, we find out that Peter was told that Steve "went crazy" and needed to be stopped, and, even if you didn't agree with Steve in CW, that isn't even close to what happened), and when he told him to go home (and I give credit to Tony for getting him out quickly, and he certainly knew Team Cap wouldn't be shooting to kill) he said he would help Peter become a superhero, and then...he just ignored him for months, until shit got so real he had to intervene before people died. Peter himself almost died before Tony started actually taking an active interest in him. Again, tunnel vision. He had things he considered more pressing, so he kept putting Peter off until lives were being threatened. He never even found out that he accidentally led to Adrian Toomes going from normal guy to super villain. The narrative never really has anyone call him out, and its just kind of "Tony be Tony", which isn't wrong, but I wish someone had just straight up said "dude, you could have handled ALL of that better" or something. 

I am fully convinced that Steve has a MASSIVE death wish, even if even he hasn't really figured that out about himself. He has, since Winter Soldier, showed signs of PTSD and Depression, and a complete disregard for his own life. I agree with @Dandesun that Steve in First Avenger figured he was going to die anyway, due to his illness and poverty, so he wanted to go out swinging. Now that he is the pinnacle of human health, however, he has become so engrossed in fighting, that he still does not think he will make it to 30, and he still wants to go out doing something good. I think its a combination of his old issues that he never dealt with, his clear depression and combat fatigue that he has never gotten treated, and he, even if its subconscious, wants to die, and looks for good places and reasons to do so. Not that I think he isn't heroic or does what he does to save lives, he really does, and he cares deeply for people, but there is just a part of him that I think wants to be DONE, or feels like dying young is inevitable for him, so why wait?

While I can certainly go on about Tony's issues for ages, Steve has a whole different set of problems, that might be even more insidious than Tony's, because, as others have said, people are more hesitant to talk to Steve about his problems, both because he is Captain America: American Idol and Symbol, and because I think its easier to tell your friend that he needs to stop building killer death bots, than to tell your other friend your worried he is depressed and should probably talk to somebody. In many ways, Steve is a victim of his own legend. He has become more of an idealized symbol (even to his own friends and teammates, to an extent) than an actual human who has his own flaws and issues. Captain American is an icon of all that is Good and True and Right and is the ideal American Man, while Steve Rogers is a 20 something soldier who is basically a chill guy who likes hanging out with his friends, has a snarky sense of humor, and has been dealing with depression and an inability to readjust to civilian life after war (like many vets), to the point that he keeps going BACK to new wars. The guy went to WWII as Captain America when he was about 21, served for quite awhile, died, than came back, and pretty much immediately joined the Avengers and fought in the Battle of New York, and then he was running black op missions for SHIELD, then leading the Avengers, and then the Civil War happened, and he is now on the run. The guy has literally never had a break since he was 21, and he isn't even 30 yet. No wonder he has problems. 

[Dandesun]

Understand that Tony's flaws are kind of the point. Stan Lee set out to create the most unlikable super hero he could imagine when he came up with Tony Stark. That's the basis of the entire character. (And apparently all of the ladies loved Tony Stark which is another thing altogether but... whatever.) I mean, just as Steve Rogers was created to be the antithesis of Hitler's ubermensch Aryan ideal in that he looked the part but went against everything that the Nazi regime stood for Tony was created to be the hero you hated.

I don't know... I just think that's kind of funny.

Quote

While I can certainly go on about Tony's issues for ages, Steve has a whole different set of problems, that might be even more insidious than Tony's, because, as others have said, people are more hesitant to talk to Steve about his problems, both because he is Captain America: American Idol and Symbol, and because I think its easier to tell your friend that he needs to stop building killer death bots, than to tell your other friend your worried he is depressed and should probably talk to somebody. In many ways, Steve is a victim of his own legend. He has become more of an idealized symbol (even to his own friends and teammates, to an extent) than an actual human who has his own flaws and issues. 

I think this is very true. Also, consider that Tony has had Pepper and Rhodey around who are very close to him and know him better than anyone else. I mean, at least in his movies he had them... they weren't really around in Ultron to rein him in. Bruce and Tony might get along like gangbusters but Bruce has a very different mentality and really does try his best to not get riled up to the point of going green. Meanwhile, Steve only ever had Bucky as someone that close, to know his flaws and weaknesses and love him anyway and Bucky, at this point, is just as fucked up as Steve is and also ran to cryo as fast as he could so he wouldn't have to deal with shit. Or be used against anyone anymore. Whatever.

Also, being almost 80 years on ice? Yikes. The comics had him 20 years out... that's culture shock, sure, but not to the extent that MCU!Steve has had to deal with it. And even the bonds he's forged with Sam and Natasha and the others... he's still more of a symbol than a man. Hell, I think he's that to himself at this point. I daresay Steve barely knows who he is without the shield anymore. (Based on the brief snippets we've got from Infinity War? He's beardy and angry without it.)

You know, there's a reason there's tons of fanfic out there where Steve and Bucky get therapy (plenty where Tony does, too, for that matter) and then go on a long well-deserved vacation and then decide to retire. Usually it ends up with them in a fixer upper house they work to rebuild together while having lots of PTSD nightmares and fucking a lot. What?

[ChelseaNH]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Well, they had pretty tight time constraints in Sokovia, and Steve is the one who insists that he wasn't leaving until all the civilians had been evacuated.

A decision he promptly told the team about, which was binding only upon himself, so what's your point of comparison?

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

There's the Stark private model analog.

Setting up a roadblock and evacuating civilians are things that have been done before.  They might not know exactly how long it will take, but they know it can't be done in under three minutes.

Looping in the team is not the same operational load as dealing with layers of bureaucracy, and Tony wasn't dealing with the same time constraints.  In any tradeoff, you weigh the costs and opportunities of each option in order to decide; the costs and opportunities of dealing with a mercenary attack are not remotely the same as creating fully sentient AI.

So police, EMTs, and intelligence communities all around the world are simply incapable of planning and executing an op on short notice? They have no protocols in place for quickly acting on intelligence and would run around like a bunch of idiots ruining everything if the Avengers bothered to respect their authority? If that's what Steve and the Avengers think about the rest of the world, no wonder the rest of the world is getting kind of fed up with him.

And, again, what gives Steve the right to make that call? A man dressed in an American flag motif gets to make unilateral decisions that the risk of Rumlow capturing a his target (which turned out to be a biological weapon) is worth the chance to capture him, that the lives of these Nigerian (and Wakandan) people are worth putting at increased risk if it increases their chances of taking down Crossbones?

If Nigerian police and Intelligence are looped in, maybe they can covertly bring in more manpower and position it near potential high profile targets.

One cop with a gun could have potentially ended Rumlow before he set off that bomb. Why were two of the team's strongest members, War Machine and Vision not involved in the op? (Well, in the case of USAF Lieutenant Colonel Rhodes, I imagine that it's probably exactly because he would have insisted on looping in the proper authorities). What difference could they have made?

And I was referring more specifically to Tony's decision to create Vision in AoU, which had Steve upset at being left out, and they were indeed operating under a time constraint there, and would have had Tony petitioning a bunch of people who don't have the foundation of knowledge to understand the science behind what he's attempting. Local authorities at least have a much stronger base for understanding the threat posed by a mercenary like Crossbones and what he's capable of.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

13 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

A decision he promptly told the team about, which was binding only upon himself, so what's your point of comparison?

The point I'm trying to make is that Steve's thinking is not always entirely clear, anymore than Tony's is. He was willing to die in Sokovia if they couldn't get all of the civilians to safety, and if that was only binding on him, fine. But it's something he mocks Tony over during The Avengers, that Stark doesn't immediately jump to "I'll just lay down on this wire and possibly kill myself" as the best possible solution. Because that's what he would do, so obviously a "real" hero would do the same thing. After Coulson's death, once Cap and Tony have talked with Nick, Steve asks Stark if that was the first time he'd "lost a soldier", which is both inaccurate and unfair. Because they're not soldiers. Hell, not even Steve is a solider anymore, not really, and it's an asshole thing to say that reflects on what Cap's outlook on the world still is, no matter how many years it's been since he wore a non-spandex uniform.

[ChelseaNH]

1 minute ago, Perfect Xero said:

So police, EMTs, and intelligence communities all around the world are simply incapable of planning and executing an op on short notice?

That depends on the op.  In this case, the Avengers know that a mercenary team have an interest in a particular location, but they don't know exactly what that interest is.  Adding the lab as a possible target makes planning harder, because you have to cover multiple contingencies.  Most operations are planned against a known objective.  Planning how to respond to someone else's operation is harder because there's less you can control.

13 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

that the lives of these Nigerian (and Wakandan) people are worth putting at increased risk if it increases their chances of taking down Crossbones?

How many lives are at risk if they don't take down Crossbones?  He's a violent mercenary.  How many more times will he use force to accomplish his objectives?  It's a tradeoff.  It's not clear that Steve was the only one making the decision -- the whole team was there.  Stark was still paying the bills; he could have been involved in the decision, even if he didn't take part in the raid.  It's not clear what relationship the team has with the US government, whose special forces will operate in civilian environments as deemed necessary.

19 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Why were two of the team's strongest members, War Machine and Vision not involved in the op?

How would I know?  Are you assuming that Steve unilaterally decided to exclude them?

20 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I was referring more specifically to Tony's decision to create Vision in AoU, which had Steve upset at being left out, and they were indeed operating under a time constraint there, and would have had Tony petitioning a bunch of people who don't have the foundation of knowledge to understand the science behind what he's attempting.

Tony didn't say that discussion would take too much time; he said he wasn't interested in hearing that he shouldn't do what he wanted to do.  The team didn't have to understand the science; what they needed to know was what the result would be, and why the result would be better than the last time Tony created a fully sentient AI, and what Tony planned to do if it went wrong again.

[Perfect Xero]

The point that I'm trying to make is that Steve/Team has no authority to decide to make that 'tradeoff'. He's not an official in Nigeria, he's not a LEO in Nigeria, he's an outsider. The people of Nigeria are being asked to accept that the guy named after another country is acting in their best interests, and is making the best decision possible for their well being, and that he knows better than they do. That things couldn't have possibly gone any better if he'd bothered to trust them to aid in their own defense.

And Tony directly tells Banner that they don't have time to open things up to a debate.

[angora]

4 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Oh no question Steve definitely has something of a death wish and it's exacerbated by several things through the course of his life. He starts out as a guy who probably isn't going to reach the age of 30 given the sheer magnitude of physical ailments and the economic status he lived in. So what does he want to do? Go out in a way that might actually mean something... I honestly feel that's one of his driving forces for continuously breaking the law as he attempted to enlist. He didn't want to die freezing in a Brooklyn tenement. He wanted to die giving his life for something that mattered. And, honestly, I don't know that that mindset ever fully left him. Hell, the entirety of Winter Soldier is Steve basically saying 'I'm not going out their way... I'm going out my way.' You know, until the end when it's 'If I can't get through to Bucky, then I'll die under his fists... that's totally acceptable."

"Head full of fantasies of dying like a martyr [...] Dying is easy, young man; living is harder."

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/6/2017 at 11:08 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

And @Kel Varnsen raises an interesting point - if the Accords were supposed to regulate the actions of the Avengers trying to stop the world from being taken over or destroyed, what measures would be taken to provide the bad guys with proper counsel, read them their rights, and make sure they're being treated fairly? After all, most of them are enhanced too, like Loki, so would it be like the Batman/Joker situation in the comics where they keep putting The Joker into Arkham only for him to escape over and over again and wreak new havoc? If they had really wanted to lampshade the idea, they'd have had some "rights" group step in on behalf of the villains to make sure they weren't being mistreated. I'm pretty sure no one is supposed to care if Zemo spends the rest of his life in a cell the size of a phone booth.

I was actually more thinking about legal ramifications without the accords or something like him. Say Crossbones is arrested. What is to stop him at trial from coming up with a story about how he was trying to steal a chemical weapon from an evil lab so that he could destroy it (like hero might), until some jackass hit him in the head with a shield. How are courts supposed to decide that one enhanced guys actions are illegal without deciding the same thing about the other guys?

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

. If Tony hadn't locked Wanda up, without even talking to her, he probably would have negotiated and this whole thing could have ended peacefully. Yeah Wanda has a lot of power, but she is still a person, and you cant lock a person up who hasn't actually broken any laws (and I dont think she did) 

Entering a country such as Nigeria, without the required visa is illegal. Endangering people's lives even to stop a criminal is generally considered a crime in most countries unless you are a law enforcement official. Hell in a lot of countries is someone dies while you are committing a crime you can be charged with murder. Which makes me wonder about something else. Since Cap was so against the accords or any kind of oversight and only really trusts his own judgement, if the government of Nigeria issued a warrant for his arrest, along with Wanda's, Natasha's and Sam's for the crimes I mentioned above, would he turn himself in to face a trial? Should he?

[Wynterwolf]

Steve's choices were motivated primarily by protecting people he loves.  Tony's were being driven by fear.  Generally, you're going to make better decisions when you're fighting for the former, rather than succumbing to the latter and generally people are going to be more supportive of the former, than they will of the latter.... that's why by the end, nearly everyone was on TeamCap, even Tony.  

[stealinghome]

Quote

After Coulson's death, once Cap and Tony have talked with Nick, Steve asks Stark if that was the first time he'd "lost a soldier", which is both inaccurate and unfair. Because they're not soldiers. Hell, not even Steve is a solider anymore, not really, and it's an asshole thing to say that reflects on what Cap's outlook on the world still is, no matter how many years it's been since he wore a non-spandex uniform.

Funny how mileage varies--I didn't think it was an asshole thing to say at all. If anything, I thought it was Steve (fumblingly) trying to be compassionate and reach out to Tony on a personal level. I've always seen that moment as the first time Steve begins to really get Tony, and it's because he suddenly understands that a) Tony doesn't deal with loss well (in part because Tony's not accustomed to losing people, which Steve twigs to) and b) that Tony sees the world just radically differently than he does.

[benteen]

16 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Also, being almost 80 years on ice? Yikes. The comics had him 20 years out... that's culture shock, sure, but not to the extent that MCU!Steve has had to deal with it. And even the bonds he's forged with Sam and Natasha and the others... he's still more of a symbol than a man. Hell, I think he's that to himself at this point. I daresay Steve barely knows who he is without the shield anymore. (Based on the brief snippets we've got from Infinity War? He's beardy and angry without it.)

It is amazing how the Marvel sliding timeline has changed how long Steve was in ice for.  I believe it was about 19 years when he was revived in 1964's Avengers #4 and now due to the sliding timeline, he spent the entire 20th century in ice and became a Rip Van Winkle.  The sliding timeline encompasses 10 years, sometimes 12.  Usually no later than 15.  So technically, Steve would have been frozen in ice during 9/11 too in the Marvel Comics.

I've read some of the early Avengers issues and Steve does try to look for something to do when he's not on Avengers duty.  He's a 60s comic book hero so he's not particularly angsty about it.  He makes the decision to work for SHIELD during his downtime but I don't know how long that lasted.

[Fukui San]

In the time when I read Captain America in the 90s, Steve was a comics artist who drew his own comic (of course). He travelled around in a custom van made by Black Panther, and mailed in his artwork to Marvel. Good times. He also dated a law student named Bernie Rosenthal and then a kind of reforming super villain named Diamondback, who finds him so hunky she tries to go straight. Seriously. I still ship them. I expect none of this to make the movies. 

[ChelseaNH]

14 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Entering a country such as Nigeria, without the required visa is illegal. Endangering people's lives even to stop a criminal is generally considered a crime in most countries unless you are a law enforcement official. Hell in a lot of countries is someone dies while you are committing a crime you can be charged with murder.

What are the standards that apply for special forces operations?  Seems to me this would be directly analogous.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

What are the standards that apply for special forces operations?  Seems to me this would be directly analogous.

Without an invitation it is an act of war. But doesn't mean the launching of ICBMS would commence in response. The Avengers however had no government to provide political cover for them

[Wynterwolf]

On 9/7/2017 at 1:54 PM, Dandesun said:

Meanwhile, Steve only ever had Bucky as someone that close, to know his flaws and weaknesses and love him anyway and Bucky, at this point, is just as fucked up as Steve is and also ran to cryo as fast as he could so he wouldn't have to deal with shit. Or be used against anyone anymore. Whatever.

Also, being almost 80 years on ice? Yikes. The comics had him 20 years out... that's culture shock, sure, but not to the extent that MCU!Steve has had to deal with it. And even the bonds he's forged with Sam and Natasha and the others... he's still more of a symbol than a man. Hell, I think he's that to himself at this point. I daresay Steve barely knows who he is without the shield anymore. (Based on the brief snippets we've got from Infinity War? He's beardy and angry without it.)

Yeah, every time Sam has tried to ask Steve what HE wants... he literally has had no clue, but I felt like he finally felt freer without the shield and the persona at the end of CW, especially in the tone of his note to Tony.  And I've seen the idea floated (and we know Bucky is out of cryo by IW), but I wonder if he'll even tell Steve he's out, whenever and however that happens.  He stayed away for two years, and didn't seem like he was planning to change that anytime soon, when Steve found him in Bucharest, and I think whatever stability he'd gained in those two years was completely thrown out the window once Zemo triggered him. and he lost himself again.  The only thing that was keeping him engaged was the idea that those other Winter Soldiers might get loose, and he had to help stop it, but damn I loved watching he and Steve work together at a unit in Siberia.  

[scriggle]

58 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, every time Sam has tried to ask Steve what HE wants... he literally has had no clue, but I felt like he finally felt freer without the shield and the persona at the end of CW, especially in the tone of his note to Tony.  And I've seen the idea floated (and we know Bucky is out of cryo by IW), but I wonder if he'll even tell Steve he's out, whenever and however that happens.  He stayed away for two years, and didn't seem like he was planning to change that anytime soon, when Steve found him in Bucharest, and I think whatever stability he'd gained in those two years was completely thrown out the window once Zemo triggered him. and he lost himself again.  The only thing that was keeping him engaged was the idea that those other Winter Soldiers might get loose, and he had to help stop it, but damn I loved watching he and Steve work together at a unit in Siberia.  

Spoilers:

Spoiler

In footage leaked from D23/SDCC, Steve & Bucky are shown fighting together alongside Black Panther.

[Wynterwolf]

Spoiler

I saw that!!   **GLEE**  But I still wonder how they get there... And whether we'll get any kind of story progress in Black Panther.  I remember seeing a tweet from Chadwick Boseman of chairs with CE and SJ's name on them, but I haven't seen anything else.  Someone also had a screen cap from the IW trailer of what looks like Steve and Bucky standing together in the background in a shot of all the warriors standing together.  It's killing me to wait!!! 

[scriggle]

Spoiler

 

Despite what the Russos have said, I don't hold out hope that there'll be any significant character development or arc for Steve and Bucky in IW. It's simply too crowded with characters.

Chris was only on set for like six weeks total. Seb & Mackie for even less than that. Neither has been on set for Avengers 4 yet. The one who seems to have been on set the most is RDJ. From photos from Avengers4, it seems like he's getting the character development/arc. Again. Personally, I'm tired of the Tony Stark show.

My gut feeling is IW & Avengers4 is going to be Tony & Dr. Strange heavy and everyone else will be pushed to the side. If I'm right, I'm going to be very unhappy.

 

[Wynterwolf]

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm expecting them to be more supporting/background, with Tony, Dr. Strange & the GotG crew carrying most of the load... plus, that's the part that is going to be the most FX heavy, so it will take more time.  It's definitely managing expectations time for me, but I love what was set up with the trailer footage, and I love that they are connected to T'Challa the way they are, even if it's fairly brief.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And now for something completely different.

[Spartan Girl]

On September 7, 2017 at 1:59 PM, benteen said:

Hiring a nut like Ross is a clear indication that the government wasn't taking this seriously.  Ross caused the whole incident with the Abomination in Harlem, which should have disqualified him and gotten him thrown out of the military.  It didn't help that Tony got into bed with him too at the end of the Hulk movie.

And instead of getting fired, he got to be Secretary of Defense? What the actual fuck?!

Please let him be Thanos' first victim...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And instead of getting fired, he got to be Secretary of Defense? What the actual fuck?!

I'm sure this has been covered before, but since I often become confused with there being two characters named Ross in the same movie who AFAIK aren't related, I checked the IMDB casts for [Civil War and [b[The Incredible Hulk[/b], which I don't even think I've seen. I was under the impression that William Hurt's character Thunderbolt Ross was a military guy with political ambitions, and that Martin Freeman's character Everett Ross was more like a middle management stooge who liked ordering people like Steve and Tony around. Because Everett is the one talking to Zemo near the end of the movie, gloating to him about how his plan failed and generally being an officious little turd telling him how things are going to be now that he's locked up.

[Spartan Girl]

38 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm sure this has been covered before, but since I often become confused with there being two characters named Ross in the same movie who AFAIK aren't related, I checked the IMDB casts for [Civil War and [b[The Incredible Hulk[/b], which I don't even think I've seen. I was under the impression that William Hurt's character Thunderbolt Ross was a military guy with political ambitions, and that Martin Freeman's character Everett Ross was more like a middle management stooge who liked ordering people like Steve and Tony around. Because Everett is the one talking to Zemo near the end of the movie, gloating to him about how his plan failed and generally being an officious little turd telling him how things are going to be now that he's locked up.

Yes, I was referring to Thunderbolt Ross. And I still don't know why he didn't get punished for all the shit he pulled with Abomination instead of getting promoted. Whatever.

I don't much care for Everett Ross either, but I don't hate him as much as Thunderbolt. 

[ChelseaNH]

On 9/8/2017 at 4:27 PM, Raja said:

The Avengers however had no government to provide political cover for them

I wonder if they didn't have some kind of intelligence-sharing arrangement with the government.

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And instead of getting fired, he got to be Secretary of Defense?

Secretary of State, which is actually weirder.  Who looks at the guy's resume and thinks "diplomat"?

[scriggle]

1 hour ago, ChelseaNH said:

I wonder if they didn't have some kind of intelligence-sharing arrangement with the government.

Secretary of State, which is actually weirder.  Who looks at the guy's resume and thinks "diplomat"?

I could make the obvious (political) joke.

Instead, let's go with HYDRA. (Which is pretty much what's happening in the U.S. right now.)?

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I wonder if they didn't have some kind of intelligence-sharing arrangement with the government.

Secretary of State, which is actually weirder.  Who looks at the guy's resume and thinks "diplomat"?

The Russo Brothers, who are very proud of how well they rehabilitated him off screen.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

36 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

The Russo Brothers, who are very proud of how well they rehabilitated him off screen.

Don't see why not, they fucked up Steve and Tony even pretending to  be friends, so might as well go all-out with it.

[scriggle]

19 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Don't see why not, they fucked up Steve and Tony even pretending to  be friends, so might as well go all-out with it.

That's more on Whedon than the Russos. He's the one who wrote them as snarky and seemingly barely tolerating each other.

[Perfect Xero]

I'd say that the Russos tried to sell Steve and Tony as friends, but trying to do it while also having them at odds over the accords didn't really work that well. Avengers 2 really dropped the ball on Steve and Tony as friends by having a lot of the drama of the movie being centered on the two of them being at odds.

If Steve had gone along with Tony's plan to create Vision and said he believed in/trusted him, it would have been a minor change to AoU overall, but would have really sold the development of friendship and trust between the two and served as a better set-up for Civil War.

IMO the biggest missed opportunity in Civil War was still not having Tony at Peggy's funeral. It was the better chance to play up the "family" connection between the two.

[Wynterwolf]

22 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

IMO the biggest missed opportunity in Civil War was still not having Tony at Peggy's funeral. It was the better chance to play up the "family" connection between the two.

Hmmm... what worked for me in CW, and why I could understand why they were both pulled as far from each other as they were, was because of how they were both set up as feeling more and more emotionally isolated in the build up of the earlier movies.  I don't think the rift would have happened if they'd been closer friends, and been communicating better in the earlier movies, but the way they did it, it made sense to me.  

Edited September 11, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

IMO the biggest missed opportunity in Civil War was still not having Tony at Peggy's funeral. It was the better chance to play up the "family" connection between the two.

Have they ever really established if Tony knew Peggy very well, if at all. I mean logically he should have, since Peggy was close to his father and to Edwin Jarvis (the person important enough to Tony to name his whole computer system after). Howard died when Tony was an adult so he should probably know her, but I don't remember him ever mentioning her.

[scriggle]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Have they ever really established if Tony knew Peggy very well, if at all. I mean logically he should have, since Peggy was close to his father and to Edwin Jarvis (the person important enough to Tony to name his whole computer system after). Howard died when Tony was an adult so he should probably know her, but I don't remember him ever mentioning her.

They haven't in the MCU. It's fanon not canon.

Agent Carter takes place in the late 40s/early 50s. According to the MCU Tony was 21 when his parents died in 1991 so he was born in 1970. It seems that sometime in those 15-20 years after the founding of SHIELD and before Tony's birth, Peggy and Howard stopped being close to each other. IIRC Tony didn't know that Howard had been involved with the founding of SHIELD. I'd guess that while Tony may have known of Peggy, he didn't know Peggy.