The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Abra]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

And there is also the little fact that Steve is creating a new timeline by travelling back, and we have no idea whatsoever how this will impact the fabric of time.

If Chris Evans isn't coming back in any significant way (and I assume that's the case, no matter how much press his "negotiations" PR articles drummed up), I would at least like to see what he did referenced in future projects. The Loki show being a perfect time for that, given the introduction of the Time Variance Authority.

11 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Endgame didn't forget what was established in The Winter Soldier, it just established that what has happened is only set in stone for the reality the movies were set in.

I see where you're going with that, but Steve also created the alternate reality, it wasn't one that already existed. Plus, he's now created a reality with another Steve in the ice. Did he just leave frozen!Steve there so he could get his with Peggy? I mean really, that was the newly created alt-Peggy's Steve and who she should be with, not Endgame Steve. He belonged in his own reality.

Ugh, time travel, man! Too much thinking.

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, Abra said:

Plus, he's now created a reality with another Steve in the ice.

I do agree with this - this is the one major issue I have with the Endgame ending.  I have some other minor issues, mostly just to do with personal preference.  But this is the one major issue that I keep running up against.  

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The last we saw of Peggy Carter, she was still keeping a picture of Steve in her office in the 1970s. Moved on? Not so much. I find it weird how often people who complain about Steve's ending complain about him not giving Peggy any choice in the matter... while completely removing the idea that Peggy has a choice in the matter. She still gets to decide, when Steve reappears in her timeline, whether she wants to be with him or not. She still gets to have a life that she chooses - Steve or someone else - just as she'd have been able to choose if Steve never went into at ice at all.

As for Steve "abandoning" his friends, they're all adults, they all make their own choices and, regardless of what they might need from him, every single one of them would give him their blessing no matter what he chose to do.  They'd feel he earned it, after everything he's done (you know, saving the world restoring half of the universe's living things). Why is Bucky constantly reduced to a helpless woobie who can't cope without Steve's manly shoulder to cry on? Eh, I think I know the answer to that one. But we're now seeing that Bucky is coping as well as he could, even without Steve. Would he be doing any better if Steve was there? I don't think so. He'd still be full of guilt and want to make amends and feel like an alien who doesn't belong. And fuck, can you imagine how much worse he'd feel if Steve had said "I could go back and be with Peggy in a new reality, but I'm going to stay here to make sure you feel better"? As for Falcon, he would never allow anyone to say Steve owed him a thing. Sam is a grown man too, who makes his own decisions and has lived a life that didn't include Steve Rogers at all.

But I've said this a thousand times and I know that not one single person is going to be convinced otherwise, so I guess even writing this is pointless. 

Steve's ending is fine, in my opinion. Is it perfect? No. Can you pick holes in it if you want? Yes. But it's fine. It works for a comic book movie and it works as a cap to his hero's journey of a man who gave everything - including his chances of happiness - to be a hero to others, then got his happy ending.

I agree with all of this.  I also said that Steve still loved Peggy, basically pined for her, and when he had the chance he went back to be with her because that's what he wanted for his life to be complete - and I got bitched out.  So I'll quote you and support you here, so you're not alone!

[Anduin]

20 minutes ago, Abra said:

If Chris Evans isn't coming back in any significant way (and I assume that's the case, no matter how much press his "negotiations" PR articles drummed up), I would at least like to see what he did referenced in future projects. The Loki show being a perfect time for that, given the introduction of the Time Variance Authority.

I see where you're going with that, but Steve also created the alternate reality, it wasn't one that already existed. Plus, he's now created a reality with another Steve in the ice. Did he just leave frozen!Steve there so he could get his with Peggy? I mean really, that was the newly created alt-Peggy's Steve and who she should be with, not Endgame Steve. He belonged in his own reality.

Ugh, time travel, man! Too much thinking.

Do you know that that Steve is stuck in the ice? Everyone always says that Steve is stuck in the ice, Bucky is getting turned into the Winter Soldier, and Hydra is infiltrating SHIELD. Given the lack of evidence, I'm going to say that Steve and Bucky have been rescued, while Hydra have been stopped once and for all. Maybe one of the Steves is out in space, looking for a way to redirect Thanos from his future plans.

[Danny Franks]

15 minutes ago, Abra said:

Plus, he's now created a reality with another Steve in the ice. Did he just leave frozen!Steve there so he could get his with Peggy? I mean really, that was the newly created alt-Peggy's Steve and who she should be with, not Endgame Steve. He belonged in his own reality.

That's the only problem I have with the ending, really. The alternate Capsicle in Steve's new reality would have to be addressed, either by Steve leading SHIELD to him (if he knows where to look) or by deciding to leave him in the ice so the world of the 21st century has a Captain America to fight for it.

I don't see Steve as non-interventionist and passive. He'd try to fix all the problems he could in his new world, along with Peggy and Howard, and you know those two would never let him just retire quietly and do nothing while they battled Hydra.

[festivus]

What's even worse is that he most likely rescued Bucky from Hydra. So he gets his friend back, less traumatized, while leaving the old/real one behind. That is fucked up.

I will never be okay with this ending. I know they had to get Steve off the board, I get that. It's just that this will never work as some kind of heart warming ending for me. If it could just be acknowledged that there are problems with it, I would be satisfied. 

So Steve and Bucky had a convo. That's great. OO What about Sam? He spent two years on the run with Steve and Steve couldn't tell him what he was doing? Then just showing up all old and dumping the shield on him. Like I've said, Sam and Bucky are grown ass men. But if they don't have some conflicting feelings about this, I call bullshit. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The last we saw of Peggy Carter, she was still keeping a picture of Steve in her office in the 1970s. Moved on? Not so much. I find it weird how often people who complain about Steve's ending complain about him not giving Peggy any choice in the matter... while completely removing the idea that Peggy has a choice in the matter. She still gets to decide, when Steve reappears in her timeline, whether she wants to be with him or not. She still gets to have a life that she chooses - Steve or someone else - just as she'd have been able to choose if Steve never went into at ice at all.

My problem with that is that the Peggy who makes that choice isn’t the one who should be making that choice. The Peggy that chooses Steve doesn’t know what she has lost. It’s an uniformed decision. The key isn’t whether she wants a life with Steve or not but a life with Steve or a life with her original husband. What would 1970’s Peggy have wanted? Would she have told Steve to go back and change her past or would she have wanted to keep the life she had? Her having the picture isn’t enough to say she would have chosen to change her past if given the chance. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Guest

[FnkyChkn34]

The problem that I have with the ending isn't necessarily Steve's timeline - it's Peggy's.  We see Steve visit her as an elderly woman, and then attend her funeral...  "Our" Steve knew the "real" Peggy in our timeline.  But my issue is that "our" Steve went back and did or did not change the "real" Peggy's story/timeline/life?  The only reasonable answer - and I think it's the one that the Russo brothers or whomever gave - is that Steve created an alternate reality.  But then this creates a different problem with Old Steve...  

In this theory, we don't have to worry about Steve being in the ice, or him saving himself, or whatever - that already happened in any timeline.  Simply because, it already happened in "our" timeline and Steve went back to a different timeline.  He didn't need to worry about anything that he already knew about because it didn't necessarily happen in his alternate reality with Peggy. 

The Steve we see at the end who gives his shield to Sam is the same Steve - he was born in 1918 (or whenever), lived until 1945, was frozen until 2014 (I forget exact years), lived until 2023, then went back in time to 1945, and then lived again until 2023.  

BUT - I realize this theory creates one more problem:  how did the same Steve get back to "our" reality again as a 105+ year old man?  I haven't worked that one out yet... 😉  

2 minutes ago, Dani said:

My problem with that is that the Peggy who makes that choice isn’t the one who should be making that choice. The Peggy that chooses Steve doesn’t know what she has lost. It’s an uniformed decision. The key isn’t whether she with Steve or not but a life with Steve or a life with her original husband. What would 1970’s Peggy have wanted? Would she have told Steve to go back and change her past or would she have wanted to keep the life she had? Her having the picture isn’t enough to say she would have chosen to change her past if given the chance. 

It's a different Peggy, isn't it?  It's the Peggy from CA: TFA, but it's not the same Peggy from any of the later movies or her show.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

BUT - I realize this theory creates one more problem:  how did the same Steve get back to "our" reality again as a 105+ year old man?  I haven't worked that one out yet... 😉  

Steve ages slower because of the super serum. 

 

20 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's a different Peggy, isn't it?  It's the Peggy from CA: TFA, but it's not the same Peggy from any of the later movies or her show.

There no official timeline but Steve is supposed to have gone back in the 50’s. So she’s post-Agent Carter Peggy. Regardless of that, she with become the Peggy of the later movies is Steve doesn’t interfere. That would have been her life. 

[Danny Franks]

44 minutes ago, Dani said:

My problem with that is that the Peggy who makes that choice isn’t the one who should be making that choice. The Peggy that chooses Steve doesn’t know what she has lost. It’s an uniformed decision. The key isn’t whether she wants a life with Steve or not but a life with Steve or a life with her original husband. What would 1970’s Peggy have wanted? Would she have told Steve to go back and change her past or would she have wanted to keep the life she had? Her having the picture isn’t enough to say she would have chosen to change her past if given the chance. 

How does anyone make a choice other than on the information available to them? No one ever really knows what they're potentially losing by choosing to commit to one person. Peggy wants Steve, Peggy gets Steve. There is no original husband because that hasn't happened in that reality. What claim does this man who she may not have even met have on her?

Maybe Steve told her all that he knew about her husband in his timeline, but I would bet that her reaction would be 'I don't know who that man is. I love you.' Because she clearly does love Steve, and is clearly happy that he's there with her.

I just don't think there is a prime timeline that has to be honoured as the 'right' one.

[Abra]

53 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Do you know that that Steve is stuck in the ice?

Yes. Alternate realities branch off of existing timelines, so when Steve went back to the past of his timeline he basically cloned a new reality that became an alternate timeline from the moment he showed up and did his thing. So everything that happened until the point of the branching still applies, he can't change that. Now, the power of the Infinity Gauntlet could have created a specific Capsicle-free/WinterSoldier-who? reality for him if he'd been able to wield it for that purpose, but luckily that's not the case.

55 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's a different Peggy, isn't it?  It's the Peggy from CA: TFA, but it's not the same Peggy from any of the later movies or her show.

It is, which is another issue to consider. Endgame Steve isn't this Peggy's Steve. Peggy's Steve is Capsicle Steve. Endgame Steve is, what, 12 years older than her now? He's had a whole ass lifetime of events since he knew her, he is not the same person.

56 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

BUT - I realize this theory creates one more problem:  how did the same Steve get back to "our" reality again as a 105+ year old man?  I haven't worked that one out yet... 😉  

I just assumed he used his Endgame reality knowledge to make good friends with people in the alternate reality he created (like Hank Pym, among others) who have the means and the ability to get him back to his original timeline.

36 minutes ago, Dani said:

There no official timeline but Steve is supposed to have gone back in the 50’s.

I can't remember if I read this in an interview with M&M/the Russos, or if someone on Tumblr did some kind of deep dive into the cars/houses/decor that we saw in the last scene, but I think it was stated that it looked to be around 1947/1948.

[Starfish35]

And now for something completely different:  😄

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Starfish35

[Abra]

That trailer looks so good! And curious that it's mentioned they want Loki's help fixing all of the new branched timelines, which must include the one Steve created - as well as TV show Loki's. Could the TVA's endgame (heh) be to snip all of the branches to end with the eliminating the Loki who helped them to do it?

I can't remember what show comes after Loki, but I like how it's working out that we started with the fantastical WandaVision, are currently watching the very grounded The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, to be followed by the fantastical Loki.

[Bruinsfan]

I hope the people behind this remember that Loki's not just a White Collar-style charming rogue. He's survived fights with Thor and the Hulk, and Captain America actually needed to be rescued from from him in a one-on-one. Nameless guards handling him roughly seems off brand.

[FnkyChkn34]

57 minutes ago, Dani said:

Steve ages slower because of the super serum. 

It's not his age that I have an issue with, it's that he's now a Steve from an alternate universe.  How did he get back to this universe/timeline?

18 minutes ago, Abra said:

I just assumed he used his Endgame reality knowledge to make good friends with people in the alternate reality he created (like Hank Pym, among others) who have the means and the ability to get him back to his original timeline.

This could work - so he time traveled yet again?  I don't see why not!  I can live with that.

[Starfish35]

10 minutes ago, Abra said:

And curious that it's mentioned they want Loki's help fixing all of the new branched timelines, which must include the one Steve created - as well as TV show Loki's.

It will be interesting to see whether they address that or not.  

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's not his age that I have an issue with, it's that he's now a Steve from an alternate universe.  How did he get back to this universe/timeline?

This could work - so he time traveled yet again?  I don't see why not!  I can live with that.

That’s the explanation the Russo’s have given. Steve returned to the MCU timeline off screen at some point and apparently decided to sit on the bench and wait for the dramatic reveal. 

48 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

How does anyone make a choice other than on the information available to them?

That’s my point. She couldn’t make an informed choice because she didn’t know that information. I have a problem with that and find it to be horribly unfair to her. I feel like she had no real agency in the situation. It’s not just about the husband but the children and life that she had. There are things in my life I would have happily changed 20 years ago but now I would be furious if they changed. 

51 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

No one ever really knows what they're potentially losing by choosing to commit to one person. Peggy wants Steve, Peggy gets Steve. There is no original husband because that hasn't happened in that reality. What claim does this man who she may not have even met have on her?

That argument doesn’t work for me if we’re talking about the past being changed by someone from the present. We know where that Peggy would have ended up. It’s not some unknown reality. It would have been her life if Steve hadn’t interfered. If Steve had talked to 1970’s Peggy and she would have encouraged him to go back I wouldn’t have a problem. 

56 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I just don't think there is a prime timeline that has to be honoured as the 'right' one.

To me it has nothing to do with which timeline is right. My main issue is the Steve’s ending was badly conceived and raises all kinds of issues. It completely undercut his entire arc and does a disservice to multiple characters. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Abra said:

just assumed he used his Endgame reality knowledge to make good friends with people in the alternate reality he created (like Hank Pym, among others) who have the means and the ability to get him back to his original timeline.

He would have to make friends with someone, otherwise how does he get the shield? Although it was never really clear to me, is the shield that Cap uses in Avengers the same on that is in Tony's living room in Iron Man?

[swanpride]

No, the one in Iron Man 2 is only some sort of prototype, Cap had his shield with him when he went into the ice.

By my count the little time heist of the Avengers plus Caps actions towards the end create between 3 to 5 branches (three for sure, because there is now one time-line in which two Caps exist, one which branches off from the battle of New York due to Loki escaping and Steve's relationship with Hydra being changed and one which is imho impossible to correct in 2014, due to Thanos and company being plugged from the timeline, and two possible splits, in 1970s (who knows, maybe Howard became a different kind of father after the talk) and 2013 due to the talk with Thor's mother). On top of it there are at least two branches, possible three, created in Agents of Shield.

[festivus]

That Loki show looks good. I won't have to be so depressed when Fats ends. Yeah, that's what I call it out loud. Too much of a mouthful for as much as I talk about it. The W is silent.

 

[FnkyChkn34]

46 minutes ago, Dani said:

That’s the explanation the Russo’s have given. Steve returned to the MCU timeline off screen at some point and apparently decided to sit on the bench and wait for the dramatic reveal. 

That’s my point. She couldn’t make an informed choice because she didn’t know that information. I have a problem with that and find it to be horribly unfair to her. I feel like she had no real agency in the situation. It’s not just about the husband but the children and life that she had. There are things in my life I would have happily changed 20 years ago but now I would be furious if they changed. 

That argument doesn’t work for me if we’re talking about the past being changed by someone from the present. We know where that Peggy would have ended up. It’s not some unknown reality. It would have been her life if Steve hadn’t interfered. If Steve had talked to 1970’s Peggy and she would have encouraged him to go back I wouldn’t have a problem. 

To me it has nothing to do with which timeline is right. My main issue is the Steve’s ending was badly conceived and raises all kinds of issues. It completely undercut his entire arc and does a disservice to multiple characters. 

I don't think Steve did interfere - there are two Peggys.  She got to live both lives, just like Steve did.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think Steve did interfere - there are two Peggys.  She got to live both lives, just like Steve did.

There are only two Peggy’s because Steve went back and caused the timeline to split. If he had gone back to that point I time as part of the mission and the timeline split as a result of the mission I would feel differently. If he had gone up to 70’s Peggy and she choose to be with Cap I would also feel differently. I would even feel differently he if had gone back and saved his past self and reunited Peggy with her Steve.  
 

But instead he purposely went back and caused the timeline to split to live the life he wanted without regard for what future Peggy would have wanted or the ripple effects. To me, it’s bad writing and completely inconsistent with who Steve is as a character. 

[swanpride]

Yeah...I mean, I get that they needed some sort of Ending for Steve, and I get that they wanted him to give the shield to Sam, but honestly,  would have preferred it if he had just gotten "lost in time" leaving his fate unknown for now.

[Starfish35]

New trailer for Black Widow:

 

[FnkyChkn34]

42 minutes ago, Dani said:

There are only two Peggy’s because Steve went back and caused the timeline to split. If he had gone back to that point I time as part of the mission and the timeline split as a result of the mission I would feel differently. If he had gone up to 70’s Peggy and she choose to be with Cap I would also feel differently. I would even feel differently he if had gone back and saved his past self and reunited Peggy with her Steve.  
 

But instead he purposely went back and caused the timeline to split to live the life he wanted without regard for what future Peggy would have wanted or the ripple effects. To me, it’s bad writing and completely inconsistent with who Steve is as a character. 

Maybe I'm not totally following what you're saying...  If you are acknowledging that there are two Peggys, when who is "future Peggy"?  I'm also not sure what mission you are referring to?  But there is no "future Peggy" in my scenario, that you seem to be agreeing with:  

Peggy #1 - lived her whole life without Steve after he was lost, as shown in the TV shows and movies. 

Peggy #2 - was created when Steve went back to 1947ish and is the one he lived his "second" life with (I maintain that it's all the same Steve). 

They are the same person in that they look the same, have the same personality, and have the same history up until the "split" but then they know nothing of each other's lives after this split.  "Future Peggy" (or Peggy #1?) doesn't exist to Peggy #2, and vice versa.  

In other words, it's an alternate reality/universe (whichever term we're using) - Steve didn't change history or Peggy #1.  He created Peggy #2.  Peggy actually got the best of both worlds - she got to live both lives - with and without Steve.  

It's all pretty bad writing, because we're sitting here having to figure it out without it definitely having been explained to us so there'd be no argument, but I disagree that Peggy didn't get to choose what she wanted just because Steve returned.  She could have turned him down, it could have not worked out between them, etc., etc.  The writers just wanted to give him his happy ending, and it didn't affect the "real" Peggy #1 in the MCU timeline at all.  Peggy #2 chose Steve.

15 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Yeah...I mean, I get that they needed some sort of Ending for Steve, and I get that they wanted him to give the shield to Sam, but honestly,  would have preferred it if he had just gotten "lost in time" leaving his fate unknown for now.

I think that's just hindsight talking. 😉  Had that actually happened, we'd all probably still be just as confused/mad.

[swanpride]

Yeah, we would be, but I would appreciate the symbolism of it. Though I would naturally expect Cap to turn up again eventually.

Honestly, it was simply too early for cap to go. Tony's story felt finished, but Cap's (and Natasha's) didn't.

[Bruinsfan]

The filmmakers had to work with what they had, which was apparently not going to be Chris Evans after that movie. As much as I dislike Steve retreating to the past to live out his white picket fence dream and abandoning the whole moving on and living in the present thing he'd been working on for years, the Quantum Leap ending would have pissed me off even more. At least this way there's at least the potential of seeing Grumpy Old Man Steve again.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

There are only two Peggy’s because Steve went back and caused the timeline to split. If he had gone back to that point I time as part of the mission and the timeline split as a result of the mission I would feel differently. If he had gone up to 70’s Peggy and she choose to be with Cap I would also feel differently. I would even feel differently he if had gone back and saved his past self and reunited Peggy with her Steve.  
 

But instead he purposely went back and caused the timeline to split to live the life he wanted without regard for what future Peggy would have wanted or the ripple effects. To me, it’s bad writing and completely inconsistent with who Steve is as a character. 

The future that Peggy wanted was with Steve. We saw her happily embracing him, we saw that he was wearing his wedding ring as an old man. Why assume that her life with her husband was any better or worse than her life with Steve? All we know is that it was different, and that in the reality Steve created, it never happened.

Maybe this problem arises because the writers weren't explicit enough on what a multiverse should mean - in Marvel it has always meant that there are countless different realities, where countless different things can happen (though they all usually involve Wolverine in a prominent role). Peggy could marry Steve and grow old, she could get the Super-soldier Serum herself and become Captain Britain, she could marry some guy we've never heard of or be single all her life, or she could be evil and join the Red Skull.

The possibilities are endless, and depend on countless variables, but Endgame focused on the idea of parallel realities instead of alternate ones. In Endgame, Steve created a new reality by going back to her in the 1950s. In that reality, Peggy never met this wondrous mystery man who she apparently loved more than Steve just because she told him on her deathbed that she had no regrets (which of course she'd say, rather than 'I never really got over you and just settled for a nice man who reminded me a little of you, but I was happy').

It's so odd to me, to put a relationship we have never seen one iota of on a pedestal and say that Steve offended the universe by preventing it from coming to pass. And I have to ask this - if a person has someone they truly love, but are told 'you can have a future with this person, or you can have it with someone else who you'd also love,' who on earth would choose the mystery box and forsake the love that they actually feel? 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

The filmmakers had to work with what they had, which was apparently not going to be Chris Evans after that movie. As much as I dislike Steve retreating to the past to live out his white picket fence dream and abandoning the whole moving on and living in the present thing he'd been working on for years, the Quantum Leap ending would have pissed me off even more. At least this way there's at least the potential of seeing Grumpy Old Man Steve again.

Tony got his complete ending because the filmmakers knew RDJ was not returning and his story was finished in the initial script.  Steve OTOH, they wrote the ending while filming hoping Chris would renegotiate, and it shows.  The Russos and the writers were not on the same page with what Steve's dance with Peggy meant.  We should not still be discussing what that ending means with regards to the rules of time travel presented in the film.  They went with the easy beats of Steve and Peggy dancing to Old Man Steve passing on the shield to Sam because those felt good.  And they did feel good, until you pondered what it actually meant.  And still, the ending for Steve in Endgame is open-ended enough that a new Steve story with Chris could eventually happen.  

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Maybe I'm not totally following what you're saying...  If you are acknowledging that there are two Peggys, when who is "future Peggy"?  I'm also not sure what mission you are referring to?  But there is no "future Peggy" in my scenario, that you seem to be agreeing with:  

Peggy #1 - lived her whole life without Steve after he was lost, as shown in the TV shows and movies. 

Peggy #2 - was created when Steve went back to 1947ish and is the one he lived his "second" life with (I maintain that it's all the same Steve). 

They are the same person in that they look the same, have the same personality, and have the same history up until the "split" but then they know nothing of each other's lives after this split.  "Future Peggy" (or Peggy #1?) doesn't exist to Peggy #2, and vice versa.  

In other words, it's an alternate reality/universe (whichever term we're using) - Steve didn't change history or Peggy #1.  He created Peggy #2.  Peggy actually got the best of both worlds - she got to live both lives - with and without Steve.  

It's all pretty bad writing, because we're sitting here having to figure it out without it definitely having been explained to us so there'd be no argument, but I disagree that Peggy didn't get to choose what she wanted just because Steve returned.  She could have turned him down, it could have not worked out between them, etc., etc.  The writers just wanted to give him his happy ending, and it didn't affect the "real" Peggy #1 in the MCU timeline at all.  Peggy #2 chose Steve.

Peggy #2 only exists because Steve created a new timeline. If he hadn’t done that there would only be Peggy #1. Peggy #1 is who I was referring to as future Peggy. 

The mission is the time travel in Endgame. If Peggy #2 was created as a result of the time travel to stop Thanos it wouldn’t bother me. But instead she was created because Steve wanted a do-over. That is what bother me. 

31 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The future that Peggy wanted was with Steve. We saw her happily embracing him, we saw that he was wearing his wedding ring as an old man. Why assume that her life with her husband was any better or worse than her life with Steve?

I’m not assuming anything. I am saying that the only person who should be able to make that choice is the Peggy who really knew what she was giving up. A Peggy who knew what her life was without Steve could make the choice to change what was to come. 

31 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Maybe this problem arises because the writers weren't explicit enough on what a multiverse should mean - in Marvel it has always meant that there are countless different realities, where countless different things can happen (though they all usually involve Wolverine in a prominent role). Peggy could marry Steve and grow old, she could get the Super-soldier Serum herself and become Captain Britain, she could marry some guy we've never heard of or be single all her life, or she could be evil and join the Red Skull.

No, I understand the multiverse. 

 

31 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It's so odd to me, to put a relationship we have never seen one iota of on a pedestal and say that Steve offended the universe by preventing it from coming to pass.

I’m not saying any of that. I am saying that Peggy had no real agency how it was written. The movie never really considered her or what she would really want. 

 

31 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

And I have to ask this - if a person has someone they truly love, but are told 'you can have a future with this person, or you can have it with someone else who you'd also love,' who on earth would choose the mystery box and forsake the love that they actually feel? 

No one, which is why I have a problem with it. As I said, the key for me is if the Peggy who knew both would tell him to go back. She is the only one who, in my mind, could make that decision. Steve made it for her. He chose to change her life. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Guest

[Danny Franks]

11 minutes ago, Dani said:

I’m not assuming anything. I am saying that the only person who should be able to make that choice is the Peggy who really knew what she was giving up. A Peggy who knew what her life was without Steve could make the choice to change what was to come. 

But again, that's true of anyone who gets into any relationship - 'what might I not experience if I commit to this?' It's a choice that anyone has to make, and Peggy being able to say, "okay, so I know there's definitely a man I would be happy with" makes no difference to that. She's happy with Steve.

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I'm not saying any of that. I am saying that Peggy had no real agency how it was written. The movie never really considered her or what she would really want. 

The movie isn't about Peggy Carter. None of the movies have been about Peggy Carter. She's always been a love interest. A well written and well acted one who was popular enough to get a spin off that was about her (and to have fans reject the planned new romantic partner for Steve), but still a love interest.

I don't know what agency she's expected to have here. Either Steve goes back and reunites with her or he doesn't and she apparently follows this predestined marriage of no regrets. Either way, she's not the one making any choices.

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No one, which is why I have a problem with it. As I said, the key for me is if the Peggy who knew both would tell him to go back. She is the only one who, in my mind, could make that decision. Steve made it for her. He choose to change her life. 

Why would she tell him to go back? She would want him to stay for the same reason Steve wanted to be there - because they're in love. What agency does she have if she has to deny that because she has a pre-ordained husband waiting just around the corner? Why does she owe anything to the mystery man, or to the woman who, in another reality, met and married him?

And at what point does Steve go back, to make sure she has all the facts? After her first date with the guy? When she first realises she loves him? On their wedding day? None of those options seem fair to me, and Steve has never been a man to inflict pain when he didn't have to, so why deliberately force her to make a choice between two men she loves?

Edited April 5, 2021 by Danny Franks

[festivus]

Steve's ending bothers me on several levels, but one I don't think I discussed is from a pure storytelling perspective. For me personally I loved Steve & Peggy when it was a what could have been love story. I don't need everything tied up in a happy little bow at the end. Other types of romantic stories deserve to be told, even those that are bittersweet. It resonated more with me when it was that. I thought part of Steve's story was accepting that the past was past and moving on. Making new friends. And honestly probably having a new love if CE and EvC's chemistry would have been better. I realize others see it differently than me though.

[Danny Franks]

1 minute ago, festivus said:

Steve's ending bothers me on several levels, but one I don't think I discussed is from a pure storytelling perspective. For me personally I loved Steve & Peggy when it was a what could have been love story. I don't need everything tied up in a happy little bow at the end. Other types of romantic stories deserve to be told, even those that are bittersweet. It resonated more with me when it was that. I thought part of Steve's story was accepting that the past was past and moving on. Making new friends. And honestly probably having a new love if CE and EvC's would have been better. I realize others see it differently than me though.

They were going to do that, with Sharon, who has actually been Steve's most long term love interest in the comics while Peggy was an afterthought who was added as a flashback to build Sharon's character. But fans didn't like her. They didn't like the idea of Steve being with Peggy's grand-niece, perhaps of Steve being with anyone who wasn't Peggy (or Bucky, I guess).

So when Evans said he wanted to leave, they figured out a way to write him out without killing him, as they were killing Tony and Nat. Bringing up the idea of struggling to move on but failing - which is what most of Endgame is about - then having him see Peggy again and realise he still loved her, helped set up the idea of him taking this one chance to go back and live the life he wanted, after giving up everything to ensure that the world got fixed.

If Sharon had been successful then maybe Steve's endgame is retiring with her, but you'd still have everyone asking why he doesn't show up to help Bucky or Falcon or whoever, in subsequent movies.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

But again, that's true of anyone who gets into any relationship - 'what might I not experience if I commit to this?' It's a choice that anyone has to make, and Peggy being able to say, "okay, so I know there's definitely a man I would be happy with" makes no difference to that. She's happy with Steve.

Sure but we’re talking about a situation where a person is choosing to change the past. One person with knowledge of what is to come and one without. She doesn’t have all the information. It’s an unequal playing field. 

 

11 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't know what agency she's expected to have here. Either Steve goes back and reunites with her or he doesn't and she apparently follows this predestined marriage of no regrets. Either way, she's not the one making any choices

I expected the movie to treat her as more than just a love interest because she is more than just a love interest. She has existed outside of her relationship with Steve. She had her own series. The fact that she was reduced to just a love interest to give Steve his ending bothers me. 

11 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Why would she tell him to go back? She would want him to stay for the same reason Steve wanted to be there - because they're in love. What agency does she have if she has to deny that because she has a pre-ordained husband waiting just around the corner? Why does she owe anything to the mystery man, or to the woman who, in another reality, met and married him?

I never said that. I do not care or even have an opinion if a fully informed Peggy would choose Steve or her original husband. It’s not about what choice she would make but about her having the choice at all. 

When I asked if she would have told him to go back I am referring a Peggy with agency who knew what was being changed. Would Civil War Peggy, 70’s Peggy or any other Peggy that knew what would be changed have encouraged Steve to go back and create a new timeline? That’s the question that matters to me. If the writers had asked that question they would have treated the character the way she deserved.

The ending itself bothers me less than the haphazard way it was handled. They could have written the exact same ending in a way I was fine with. Instead it felt like poorly developed wish fulfillment to me. In the process they tarnished my opinion of one of my favorite character arcs in the MCU. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

No one, which is why I have a problem with it. As I said, the key for me is if the Peggy who knew both would tell him to go back. She is the only one who, in my mind, could make that decision. Steve made it for her. He chose to change her life. 

But he didn't though.  He didn't change anything.  She lived that life.  He just created Peggy #2 on a new timeline and lived that life with her.  It kinda makes sense, kinda doesn't, but that's how multiverses work - she lived both lives.  

We also have no idea if he sat her down and told her the truth.  "I never returned, I was frozen for 70 years, I did some stuff, saved the world, then time-traveled back here to be with you.  If I leave, you'll do this and this, and marry this guy...  Which do you want?"  He actually could have easily done that - we have no idea if he did or didn't.  But like mentioned above, she loved him and he came back for her, so why is Peggy #2 going to choose the unknown?

Honestly, IMO, this would be a great script to write to lure Chris Evans back to do one more movie.  Give him some good, meaty material to work with to explain everything in a movie set in the past in this alternate universe.

Edited April 5, 2021 by FnkyChkn34
fixed typo

[festivus]

36 minutes ago, Dani said:

In the process they tarnished my opinion of one of my favorite character arcs in the MCU. 

I know. It sucks. Nebula's and Thor's take first and second spot for me now. And Wanda, which I would have never seen coming after I didn't care that much during the movies. But the show turned me right around. It was such a well done story about grief. I didn't participate much in the forums because I'm just not interested in the speculation and theories of what was going on (not that there's anything wrong with that!) it's just that I'm more interested in the emotional aspect. We'll see where the boys in Fats shake out when that show is over.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

The possibilities are endless, and depend on countless variables, but Endgame focused on the idea of parallel realities instead of alternate ones. In Endgame, Steve created a new reality by going back to her in the 1950s. In that reality, Peggy never met this wondrous mystery man who she apparently loved more than Steve just because she told him on her deathbed that she had no regrets (which of course she'd say, rather than 'I never really got over you and just settled for a nice man who reminded me a little of you, but I was happy').

It's so odd to me, to put a relationship we have never seen one iota of on a pedestal and say that Steve offended the universe by preventing it from coming to pass. And I have to ask this - if a person has someone they truly love, but are told 'you can have a future with this person, or you can have it with someone else who you'd also love,' who on earth would choose the mystery box and forsake the love that they actually feel? 

Why are we assuming that Peggy didn’t love her husband as much as (if not more than) Steve? Was Peggy the type of woman that would really settle for anything less for someone she truly loved? Let’s give her some credit. It is possible to have more than one love in your life.

Regarding Sharon, I know opinion is split on EVC, but maybe the storyline could have worked if the Russos hadn’t decided to give the lion’s share of female spotlight in WS to Black Widow/ScarJo. I would have loved if Nat and Sharon teamed up together to help Steve; we could have had more snarking about Steve getting all buttsore about being “spied on” etc. It wouldn’t have to be a romance yet, but it would have established a working relationship between them. Then the CW stuff wouldn’t have been so rushed.

[Dandesun]

For me, I liked that Peggy's story didn't end with Steve. Even when it was just that one shot of Agent Carter that came with the Iron Man 3 DVD I loved the fact that we something of Peggy AFTER. When she got two seasons of Agent Carter, even better. I loved her interaction with young Howard and Jarvis. I loved her kicking ass. I loved her moving on. Her life wasn't defined by Steve, he was gone and she wasn't. That was what I liked; her perseverance. 

I understand why they did what they did. They had to remove some players from the stage. They killed off Tony probably because they would not be able to help themselves and want him back as often as they could get him while RDJ got more and more and more expensive. Ideally, I would have let Tony go back to Pepper and Morgan and create new things and ship them to various heroes ('Heard you were having some trouble with blad de blah... this could help. Don't call me, we're camping.') -- or even just have him go be with his wife and child and not interact with the MCU at large anymore. That'd be fine, too. Evans seems to have drawn a harder line regarding his leaving. They'd already brought RDJ on for projects well past his contract so... Hemsworth was also going to be gone but he had so much fun with Ragnarok that he decided to stick around.

So, yeah, I get it. I get it all. I don't like it but I get it. And I'm not going to hate Steve because they had to come up with something to take him off the board and decided this was it. It's just a big fat whatever for me.

But I do like imagining Steve retreating and letting the others take over while he gets an art degree and stuff. And if I want to imagine Steve/Bucky together I can do that too. They've introduced multi-verses. I can imagine whatever I want.

[Danny Franks]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Why are we assuming that Peggy didn’t love her husband as much as (if not more than) Steve? Was Peggy the type of woman that would really settle for anything less for someone she truly loved? Let’s give her some credit. It is possible to have more than one love in your life.

All we have is speculation. Would she settle? I don't know, because I don't know what her life was like or the compromises she made between her personal life and SHIELD. She might have loved him as much, but in the reality that Steve created, she didn't because she never met him. 

And so no one loses out - Peggy gets to have a relationship with a man she loves, her mystery not-husband also has the opportunity to meet another woman and live happily. So I don't see the issue at all. 

The only loser is Frozen Steve, but maybe original Steve waits for him to defrost then gives him the Pym tech and he goes to find his own Peggy in yet another timeline, and so on, forever.

Just one or two lines added to the script would have avoided all this - a reference to "in some timelines, Steve would have died in that crash rather than been frozen" or "here's a timeline where Tony never becomes Iron Man," to let the audience know that a multiverse allows for different realities.

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Regarding Sharon, I know opinion is split on EVC, but maybe the storyline could have worked if the Russos hadn’t decided to give the lion’s share of female spotlight in WS to Black Widow/ScarJo. I would have loved if Nat and Sharon teamed up together to help Steve; we could have had more snarking about Steve getting all buttsore about being “spied on” etc. It wouldn’t have to be a romance yet, but it would have established a working relationship between them. Then the CW stuff wouldn’t have been so rushed.

Giving Scarlett Johansson so much time in Winter Soldier came about because she was a big part of that story in the comics. But then they changed everything about her involvement in it, leaving her as a platonic buddy for Steve who, along with his other platonic buddy, Sam, left no room for a love interest. She pretty much took Sharon's original role from the comic book.

I imagine Sharon had a bigger role in the original script but it kept being pared back as things were cut. They'd have been better off cutting her out of the movie completely than giving her such a desultory couple of scenes. Hell, they could have given Steve a romance with Maria Hill, who was already established and played by a much more charismatic actor who did a lot more with her scenes than Emily Van Camp did.

[festivus]

Steve and Maria. Now that is some food for thought. CS did make the most of her limited time. 

 

Who's this guy. ❤️

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But he didn't though.  He didn't change anything.  She lived that life.  He just created Peggy #2 on a new timeline and lived that life with her.  It kinda makes sense, kinda doesn't, but that's how multiverses work - she lived both lives.  

 

Since Peggy #2 was Peggy #1 originally he did changes things. Creating a entirely new timeline is a change that would not have happened without his interference. Peggy didn’t live both lives. They each lived one life.

We are really saying the same thing. We just feel differently about what it means. To me, the very idea that he created a new timeline and a new Peggy completely on his own just because he wanted to is appalling. He created his wife. He played God for his own selfish desires.  Then he either sat back and let things unfold or he made changes based on what he knew. Both of the scenarios are unsettling to me. 

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

We also have no idea if he sat her down and told her the truth.  "I never returned, I was frozen for 70 years, I did some stuff, saved the world, then time-traveled back here to be with you.  If I leave, you'll do this and this, and marry this guy...  Which do you want?"  He actually could have easily done that - we have no idea if he did or didn't.  But like mentioned above, she loved him and he came back for her, so why is Peggy #2 going to choose the unknown?

Once again we are saying the same thing with different interpretations of what that means. I assume he told her what happened but she had no real choice because she couldn’t really know what she was giving up because it was unknown. To me that means she didn’t really have a choice. 

[Starfish35]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Hell, they could have given Steve a romance with Maria Hill, who was already established and played by a much more charismatic actor who did a lot more with her scenes than Emily Van Camp did.

I could have gone for Steve/Maria.  That could’ve been really interesting.    Actually, if they’d wanted to go that way, I could’ve even gone for Steve/Nat, though I really do enjoy those two as platonic besties.  It would certainly have been better than the train wreck that was Bruce/Nat. 🤦🏻‍♀️  But Steve/Sharon just did not work for so many reasons.  

[swanpride]

I never minded Steve/Sharon, but I also felt that it wasn't necessary to give Steve a romance in the first place. Thus said, I think it was worth it for Bucky's and Sam's reaction to the kiss. And I think the big mistake was more to not establish that Steve and Sharon had contact between movies (but then, there would have always been people hung up on the niece thing, something I don't get. It's not like they are related by blood, or that Sharon looks even remotely like Peggy, or that Steve even knew who she was)

[Spartan Girl]

Okay, moving back to the upcoming Loki show. This looks like fun. It’ll be interesting to see the old sneaky magnificent bastard Loki that hasn’t experienced the pain of losing Frigga and Odin (come on, we all know for all his crap, he still loved them) or had any emotional growth or redemption. At least not yet.

Maybe he’ll pretend to be Cap just one more time? I know a cameo isn’t likely but we all loved that part in Dark World and Endgame.

[Bill1978]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:16 AM, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's not his age that I have an issue with, it's that he's now a Steve from an alternate universe.  How did he get back to this universe/timeline?

Before reading all the discussion about Steve and the alternate timeline, when I watched End Game I just assumed that Steve went back in time and waited to ctch up with 'the movie'. Obviously he kept all his memories and so when it got close to the date where he went back in time he hopped on the bus and got himself to the location (Avengers compound?) and sat on the bench waiting for Sam to see Steve go back in time and then boom! surprise Sam. After the scene, Steve hopped on a bus and went back to his retirement village. So there was no need for Steve to  jump into our universe as he was still in our Universe.

I learnt ages ago it's best not to think about time travel in movies as it does my head in trying to match everything up. So it's easier for me to find a dumb simple answer that my brain can cope with haha.

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

So there was no need for Steve to  jump into our universe as he was still in our Universe

If Steve was always in the main MCU universe and always was Peggy's only husband, then where did he get the new shield?

[FnkyChkn34]

8 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Before reading all the discussion about Steve and the alternate timeline, when I watched End Game I just assumed that Steve went back in time and waited to ctch up with 'the movie'. Obviously he kept all his memories and so when it got close to the date where he went back in time he hopped on the bus and got himself to the location (Avengers compound?) and sat on the bench waiting for Sam to see Steve go back in time and then boom! surprise Sam. After the scene, Steve hopped on a bus and went back to his retirement village. So there was no need for Steve to  jump into our universe as he was still in our Universe.

I learnt ages ago it's best not to think about time travel in movies as it does my head in trying to match everything up. So it's easier for me to find a dumb simple answer that my brain can cope with haha.

I like your optimism! 

...but this still doesn't work for me. 😉  Yes, time travel is very confusing and often very poorly explained, but I don't think both Steves could have existed in the same universe.  I think he had to have time-traveled back somehow, rather than just taken the bus. 🙂  

[festivus]

It pisses me off that we still have to debate this. I know the writers and the directors both had a different idea of Steve's ending, ugh, that should not be the case in a machine this big! I go by the time travel rules that were set out in the movie, that any change causes a new branch. Hopefully the Loki show can answer this shit once and for all. As for how old man Steve got back to the bench: Who knows. Grrr.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

As for how old man Steve got back to the bench: Who knows. Grrr.

I SWORE I wouldn't add anything more, but one last thing: in the 70s, Steve grabbed a handful of the Pym time travel thingamajigs.

That's how he got to the bench.

Okay, shutting up for real, because, like you, I can't believe we're all still debating over this. And I still love Steve!

[FnkyChkn34]

53 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I SWORE I wouldn't add anything more, but one last thing: in the 70s, Steve grabbed a handful of the Pym time travel thingamajigs.

That's how he got to the bench.

Okay, shutting up for real, because, like you, I can't believe we're all still debating over this. And I still love Steve!

Did he grab a handful though?  I thought Smart Hulk said something about only having enough for him to go put the stones and Mjolnir back, and return...  but I could be confusing that with when they only had enough for their first trips to get the stones.  I'll buy it though that he had the ability to time travel to return.  It's really the only logical answer IMO at this point.

Sorry that we're "still" discussing this, but it's actually for the benefit of people - like me - who didn't jump on board the MCU wagon until recently.  I didn't see Endgame (or any of the other movies) in the theaters; I just watched them all last summer/fall for the first time on Disney+ during COVID lockdown.  These conversations are new to some of us.