The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Captain Carrot]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Presumably Magneto is still around in the comics being written today and they are not period pieces. I would think there must be an explanation for a 100 year old leader written already 

Yep, all of the comics characters that have an origin that can't be divorced from WWII spent time being frozen (Cap and Bucky), age slowly (Namor), got de-aged (Magneto), etc to explain why they're still around. Others like Reed Richards that had time in WWII as part of their backstory; that part of their bio just got forgotten or changed to vague references to time in the military.

Not sure what the best route would be for an MCU Magneto.

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I do think it's a shame Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen have aged out of their roles, as I can't imagine finding better actors to portray Professor X or Magneto.

I've got my eye on Ralph Fiennes and Viggo Mortensen for Xavier and Magneto, in an MCU X-Men movie. Although if it were up to me I wouldn't have Magneto appear for at least a couple of movies.

They could do Mr. Sinister for the first one, then something weird like Mojo or the Shadow King before the inevitable Magneto appearance.

11 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

But eventually they have to. Not doing the X-Men is leaving billions of dollars on the table. And I'm infinitely grateful it won't be the Fox X-Men.

I like that it's (apparently) going to be a slow rollout. Not Wanda whispering "more mutants" and suddenly Wolverine pops up to shank someone. I always thought that was stupid.

Since Feige likes to stick fairly close to the comics I actually hope we get a movie with the first 5 students. Even if it's the 5 kids meeting the second class so we get to Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc. faster.

I don't know what Feige plans. While all the MCU movies are fairly true to the spirit of the characters, they've been more willing to give us new character dynamics than Sony were (Fox's approach to the X-Men was just an indecipherable mess). Will it be the original five? It would be the first time they have appeared as a team together, but Jean and Cyclops have really been done to death at this stage, and Beast was a prominent character in the last few movies, I think. It will be difficult to breathe new life into them.

This is the problem Marvel have, in trying to do something interesting and new with an IP that has ten movies to its name (including the Wolverine ones). How do they avoid repeating things? They managed it really well with the Spider-Man reboot but that was really just one character they had to refresh, rather than a whole team.

8 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Wolverine should absolutely be completely off the table at this point.  And as for the rest, it should probably be mostly all new mutants, with some exceptions.  But no more Xavier, Magneto, Mystique, Jean, Scott, Storm, Beast, etc.  Just an all new team of mutants. 

I agree that Wolverine should be out of the equation, but he probably won't be. He really is Marvel's biggest mutant, and arguably their second biggest character after Spidey.

As for all new mutants, they're kind of struggling for team members that anyone would know. Even if you define it as 'characters who haven't played significant roles yet' then the options aren't great:

Gambit

Bishop

Jubilee

Dazzler

Longshot

Forge

Strong Guy

Polaris

Marrow

Monet

Siryn

Sunfire

Multiple Man

And some newer characters like Armor, Pixie, Hellion, Dust etc, who most people won't know at all. It's not exactly an all-star list.

I can't pretend to be impartial, but my personal choice would be to go with an amalgam of X-Men Blue and Gold, from the early 90s - Storm as leader with Rogue, Gambit, Bishop, Jubilee, Angel, Iceman and maybe a wild card like Forge or Sunfire.

[swanpride]

Quote

I was actually trying to think if another, more recent genocide could be Erik's backstory, but the experiments on prisoners is, I think, relatively unique to Nazi doctors and the Holocaust. Maybe the Khmer Rouge but I doubt it. Rwanda, Bosnia/former Yugoslavia, as horrific as those terrors are, aren't quite the same for this backstory. What does it say that we have so many atrocities to consider?

Aren't they? Maybe they should use one of them in order to remind everyone what is still happening in large parts of the world. You don't need killing camps to destroy a culture. Just look what is happening to the Yazidis or the Uighurs.

[Ailianna]

38 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Aren't they? Maybe they should use one of them in order to remind everyone what is still happening in large parts of the world. You don't need killing camps to destroy a culture. Just look what is happening to the Yazidis or the Uighurs.

The large number of ongoing human rights crime, genocides, and crimes against humanity are what led me to the original question. But it was the doctor in the camp doing experiments on children/Erik that brought his abilities on so strongly. Most of these modern horrors are more concerned with the destruction of those peoples (add to your examples the Rohingya, and too many others), versus using them for quasi-science experiments. I did think though that this would not only draw attention to the ongoing atrocities but could give us a non-white Magneto.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Ailianna

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I do think it's a shame Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen have aged out of their roles, as I can't imagine finding better actors to portray Professor X or Magneto.

Given the CGI they continue to refine it seems like any actor who's willing can appear in some capacity.  Maybe it can be like Nick Fury in Captain Marvel - aside from him running like a 70 year old man it worked pretty well.  Or they can just CGI a face onto a stunt double's body.

31 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I did think though that this would not only draw attention to the ongoing atrocities but could give us a non-white Magneto.

And open themselves up to the criticism of making the antagonist a person of color?  Only if Professor X also gets to be non-white.

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Gambit

Bishop

Jubilee

Dazzler

Longshot

Forge

Strong Guy

Polaris

Marrow

Monet

Siryn

Sunfire

Multiple Man

I'm so torn on X-Men in the MCU. There's a part of me that is Yes! MCU will get the X-Men right. Another part that is just, I really don't want Jean, Scott, Logan Triangle (or now a polyamorus relationship) again. FOX has destroyed The Phoenix Saga so that I never want to see it again...and, yet I want MCU to do it, just so they do it right.

I grew up on Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends (Spidey, Firestar, Iceman). My main X Book reading was early 90s to 2000s.  I'd love to see Madelyn Pryor (except don't do her dirty like the books did...she's one of the most fascinating tragic figures in the X-Books - YMMV).

Give me The New Warriors, X-Factor, X-Force, X-Claibur. Give me a damn good Gambit including his relationship with Storm and his family, I want Jean Luc LeBeau. I want Bella Donna and The Thieves/Assains Guild....I'll even suffer through Gambit/Rogue although I hate that pairing

Keep in mind I'm a 90s reader so my Teams have a definitive list. 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

agree that Wolverine should be out of the equation, but he probably won't be. He really is Marvel's biggest mutant, and arguably their second biggest character after Spidey.

That is sort of my biggest worry. Back in my comic reading days there were 2 regular X-Men titles with him plus a regular Wolverine comic plus there was also other random appearances and mini-series. Later on I read he joined the Avengers. If they applied that to movies you would have Logan showing up on screen more often than Tony Stark did between Iron Man and End Game.

Also if they are going to do thing thing where mutant prejudice is an analogy for actual racism or homophobia or any other real world prejudice they better do a good job of explaining why people are scared of mutants but not say Ant-man.

[AimingforYoko]

WandaVision brings philosophy to the MCU.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Back in my comic reading days there were 2 regular X-Men titles with him plus a regular Wolverine comic plus there was also other random appearances and mini-series.

We we're probably reading around the same time because I remember him being in the 2 X-Titles and Solo Wolverine. I remember learning in the 2010s that Wolverine was in every X Book, had a solo (or 2) book and, was in the Avengers.  

Personally I think he's over used, great character but, he's not the ONLY X Character, there are some really great ones that have gotten short changed due to Prof X/Magneto, Wolverine, Mystique (don't get me started) and Jean/Phoenix.

Want to give me a villain turned X Men? How about Emma Frost? How about The Stepford Cuckcoos?

It kills me that New Mutants was such a crap movie because it actually had characters I loved and, hadn't been seen before...Magic, Mirage, Sunspot, Rhane, Cannonball! 

Screw you, FOX!

[Danny Franks]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

We we're probably reading around the same time because I remember him being in the 2 X-Titles and Solo Wolverine. I remember learning in the 2010s that Wolverine was in every X Book, had a solo (or 2) book and, was in the Avengers. 

I think he was in Astonishing X-Men, Adjectiveless X-Men, The New Avengers and at least two solo books all at the same time, for a while. And they put him in Astonishing X-Men to 'give him a rest' from the main X-books after Grant Morrison's New X-Men run ended... yet he still appeared regularly in at least one of them.

He was as ubiquitous in the early 2010s as Deadpool has been for the past few years. When Marvel find a character who sells books, they will put that character in as many books as they can, even if his appearances are contradictory and confusing and muddle continuity.

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also if they are going to do thing thing where mutant prejudice is an analogy for actual racism or homophobia or any other real world prejudice they better do a good job of explaining why people are scared of mutants but not say Ant-man.

They've often struggled to explain that in the comics, to be fair. And also struggled to explain why respected heroes like Captain America, Iron Man and the Fantastic Four are constantly telling the public who hate mutants that the X-Men are not a threat but are actually great defenders of humanity.

In the MCU, so far, they might be lucky that they haven't really had any characters who have manifested powers 'naturally', like mutants do. Everyone came by theirs either through artificial means - whether that's technology, secret formulas, radiation, the effects of the Infinity Stones or being aliens.

The mutants are a natural evolution who become empowered at random, and sometimes in very troubling ways. Your partner might be a mutant and you wouldn't know it, your kid might be a mutant and manifest powers suddenly as they reach their teens. They're effectively a split from homo sapiens, and I think it should be fairly easy to demonstrate the prejudice that a lot of people have towards those of different colour, sexuality or gender will also extend to those they consider not even human.

[Morrigan2575]

23 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The mutants are a natural evolution who become empowered at random, and sometimes in very troubling ways. Your partner might be a mutant and you wouldn't know it, your kid might be a mutant and manifest powers suddenly as they reach their teens. They're effectively a split from homo sapiens, and I think it should be fairly easy to demonstrate the prejudice that a lot of people have towards those of different colour, sexuality or gender will also extend to those they consider not even human

I always thought that was the reason people hated/feared mutants but, not Fantastic Four, The Avengers, Spider-Man.  Mutants are an evolutionary jump, there's no telling if your kid will be a mutant until they manifest and, it's not always powers, plenty of mutants just look different (Morlocks). I remember with Gen X they wanted to introduce characters that weren't just flashy powers, you had Husk (ripped her skin off), Skin (who's skin was kind of elastic) and, Chamber who's powers blew a hole in his chest. Then there was also Marrow from the main X Books (former Morlock).

I thought X-Men and X-Men 2 did a good job of developing the fear/hate as people being afraid of the future/evolution, being replaced as the dominant species.  I think that's why Mutants work so well as stand ins for minority groups.

[Captain Carrot]

3 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I did think though that this would not only draw attention to the ongoing atrocities but could give us a non-white Magneto.

Magneto is Jewish survivor of the Holocaust. I think there would definitely be criticisms to changing that aspect of the character.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Captain Carrot

[Chyromaniac]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also if they are going to do thing thing where mutant prejudice is an analogy for actual racism or homophobia or any other real world prejudice they better do a good job of explaining why people are scared of mutants but not say Ant-man.

I feel like they've laid some groundwork for the public not trusting any super-powered people - there's Sokovia, Lagos, Westview, The Blip... it seems like they've even managed to turn public opinion against Spider-Man.  Still, the Avengers have saved the planet on multiple occasions.  As such, I can understand an MCU populace that is willing to accept a well-regulated group of mostly "normal people in fancy suits" and "friendly aliens" who protect them from evil aliens and terrorists - but would object to the idea of people who just have dangerous powers at random, and want to make it so their children could as well.  Get Ant-Man, Wasp, or War Machine out of their gear, and they're just human.  You can't "take off" laser eyes.

As for X-Men casting - I wouldn't completely discount Fassbender and McAvoy.  They are both in their early 40's, which is a reasonable age for how both Xavier and Magneto are portrayed anyways.  Setting aside the Evan Peters situation, we know that they're doing a Deadpool MCU movie, so at least one other element of the Fox films is going to survive.  And, if anyone has seen them on Graham Norton you'll know that James and Michael have a... committed? fanbase that really likes to see them together,,,  I think their casting still works, regardless of whether Disney starts the X-Men back in the 60's, or if they do a completely modern take.  Perhaps the timeline changes from DoFP cause one set of X-Men to be sent through the Multiverse to the MCU in, say, 2025.

However, if they want to recast for contemporary X-Men, I think that would work as well.  I would be fine with them starting with the original five - and just because they were white characters in the 60's doesn't mean they necessarily need to be today.  When we get to the second wave with Storm, Colossus, Thunderbird, etc... that will be different, since nationality and ethnicity are more tied to their backstories.  But with the first group, there's no reason why even "Warren Worthington III" must be white - he just has to be a rich kid.  Same with the Professor.

And for Erik: as has been pointed out, we are sadly replete with modern conflicts that could create a present day Magneto.  I don't personally think there would be much of an issue with making him a "non-European" villain either - prior to Killmonger, Magneto was the poster child for the "well, but he kind of has a point" bad guy.  As long as the audience understands where his hostility comes from, I think it mitigates any potential claim of stereotyping.  Honestly, the bigger problem I see is that in many cases these conflicts are still ongoing (or still fresh in the minds of the people involved), and I doubt Disney wants to risk offending certain governments by suggesting that they've committed atrocities.  For example, there is zero chance Marvel creates an Uyghur Magneto.

Although, it they want to maintain the character's WWII origins, I don't think it would be much of a problem, even in a modern setting.  Perhaps whatever caused his powers also slowed his aging process.  Hey- maybe the Von Strucker experiments performed on Wanda and Pietro were based on earlier Hydra work from the 40's on Erik.  

Edited March 7, 2021 by Chyromaniac

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Although, it they want to maintain the character's WWII origins, I don't think it would be much of a problem, even in a modern setting.  Perhaps whatever caused his powers also slowed his aging process.  Hey- maybe the Von Strucker experiments performed on Wanda and Pietro were based on earlier Hydra work from the 40's on Erik.  

Plus we don't really know how much MCU history diverges from real world history. Throw Hydra into the mix and there could be all kinds of opportunities where someone like Magneto could be experimented on as part of a genecide.

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

We we're probably reading around the same time because I remember him being in the 2 X-Titles and Solo Wolverine. I remember learning in the 2010s that Wolverine was in every X Book, had a solo (or 2) book and, was in the Avengers.  

This would have been late 90's when there was Uncanny X-Men me X-Men comics and at least one Wolverine comic. Shortly after that I got into the Kurt Busiek/George Perez Avengers comics and realized they were way better. But translate all those Wolverine comics into movies, which only come out 2 or 3 times a year and that is a lot of Wolverine.

[swanpride]

I always felt that the X-Men never really fit into the world of the Avengers. Now that the Mutliverse is introduced, my favourite solution for the problem would be the following:

It has been established in Agents of Shield that the Kree came to earth ages ago to experiment on humans and somehow the experiments succeeded. Well, what if what actually happened was that they messed up an evolution which would have happened anyway eventually? And that in a different timeline they never went to earth, hence never messed around with humans which lead to the mutant gene developing naturally? And in this world, most if not all of the superheroes we don't don't exist, because in a world in which mutants are a thing nobody would bother messing around with a supersoldier serum (hence no Cap, Bucky or Hulk - and no red Skull either), and the Nazis would focus on experimenting with them instead of digging up mystical artefacts (so no tesseract, hence no captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch or Vision). And in this world, they could recreate the X-men however they want, without worrying too much how it fits in this MCU timeline.

[FnkyChkn34]

I have a really dumb question: does Marvel still publish comics books?  Is there any NEW source material - characters or storylines - that movies can be based off of?  Why do we have to keep remaking the past? 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, too, since I've never seen an X-Men movie except Deadpool, but I don't think the X-Men movies should be made/remade until there is a completely new generation of actors, directors, and audience.  Even if there is new or unused source material for more X-Men movies, the actors (like Hugh Jackman, Ian McKellan, and Patrick Stewart) are all done now.  More movies won't be good until they can be totally revamped, and in my opinion, more time needs to pass for that.  For example, Superman movies were made in the 40s-50s, not again until the late 70s-80s, and then not again until 2006.  It's only been 20 years since the first X-Men movie, let alone the last...  Looks what's happened to the Spiderman movies.  They're a mess, IMO.

I get the impression that there is still plenty of untapped Avenger source material that the MCU can use, so it doesn't need to remake what's already been done, whether it was good or not.  JMO.  

[AimingforYoko]

Ummmm....

 

[swanpride]

Well, personally I am not in a hurry to see the x-men, but I think they should eventually try for a good version of them for the big screen. But yes, there are a lot of properties left to mine for Marvel. And I am pretty sure that they will tackle the Fantastic Four and a few others first.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

It has been established in Agents of Shield that the Kree came to earth ages ago to experiment on humans and somehow the experiments succeeded. Well, what if what actually happened was that they messed up an evolution which would have happened anyway eventually?

That's straight out of Comics, Kree experimented on Humans creating Inhumans.

The Celestials came to Earth, experimented with humans and created The Eternals and Deviants (which MCU is introducing - at least the first group). If I remember correctly Mutants are descended from Eternals mixing with Early Humans.

 Even if there is new or unused source material for more X-Men movies, the actors (like Hugh Jackman, Ian McKellan, and Patrick Stewart) are all done now.  More movies won't be good until they can be totally revamped, and in my opinion, more time needs to pass for that.

Hell no 😂 I've been waiting years for Marvel to pick up the pieces that FOX Screwed up and give me a good X-Men Property.

As for the time, why? Spide-man has been rebooted 3 times in 15 years. Batman has been rebooted sooo many times but, just going from 1997 Batman and Robin to Batman Begins (2005 - 2012). Rebooted again with Batman vs Superman (2017) and, I'm not sure if The Batman 2021 is a reboot or AU.

I don't see any reason for MCU to sit on X Men for any longer than necessary to fit it into their Phase 5

Edited March 7, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Raja]

29 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I have a really dumb question: does Marvel still publish comics books?  Is there any NEW source material - characters or storylines - that movies can be based off of?  Why do we have to keep remaking the past? 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, too, since I've never seen an X-Men movie except Deadpool, but I don't think the X-Men movies should be made/remade until there is a completely new generation of actors, directors, and audience.  Even if there is new or unused source material for more X-Men movies, the actors (like Hugh Jackman, Ian McKellan, and Patrick Stewart) are all done now.  More movies won't be good until they can be totally revamped, and in my opinion, more time needs to pass for that.  For example, Superman movies were made in the 40s-50s, not again until the late 70s-80s, and then not again until 2006.  It's only been 20 years since the first X-Men movie, let alone the last...  Looks what's happened to the Spiderman movies.  They're a mess, IMO.

I get the impression that there is still plenty of untapped Avenger source material that the MCU can use, so it doesn't need to remake what's already been done, whether it was good or not.  JMO.  

Yes  there are new stories but will Fiege think they are good enough for a movie or miniseries? In my case most of the second stories after the origin movie have been based on books after I stopped reading. Iron man 2 touching on Demon in a bottle being the exception 

[Kel Varnsen]

I think Marvel should probably wait awhile and then have a crack at X-Men in a complete reboot. Although it is too bad since I watched Logan a few months ago and would be interested in seeing more about X-23 using the actress they cast. Maybe she can show up in Deadpool 3.

Another smart move for rebooting X-Men would be if around the same time  Disney casts Hugh Jackman and pays him very well for a role where he has to be super fat and out of shape (and has to stay fat during the press tour). Have him play the title role in a Harvey Weinstein movie or something. Do that and it will make it a lot harder for people to see him as Wolverine.

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Throw Hydra into the mix and there could be all kinds of opportunities where someone like Magneto could be experimented on as part of a genecide.

That's a good point. And we know that the Winter Soldiers were in cryogenic stasis in between jobs so they could easily do something similar with Erik. Not the mind control part but Hydra medicating him part. I can imagine a scenario where Erik's powers manifest in the camp, he's taken to a separate Hydra facility for examination/experimentation, and after a few years his powers have grown so strong that they decide to put him in stasis to continue their experiments. Then someone finds him (Xavier, another MCU character, etc), wakes him up, and his journey to Magneto begins.

Whatever they do with Erik and the mutants I think another reason they'll be in the MCU is because the movies and now Wandavision have done a great job of establishing that the general public, at best, have mixed feelings on the subject of superpowered people. The Sokovia Accords set the precedent for Mutant Registration, only this time the powered won't get a choice. I can see Ross coming back as the familiar face advocating for that.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Raja said:

Yes  there are new stories but will Fiege think they are good enough for a movie or miniseries? In my case most of the second stories after the origin movie have been based on books after I stopped reading. Iron man 2 touching on Demon in a bottle being the exception 

As of last year, Fiege has creative control over everything Marvel including the comics. Some of the new stories should make it into the movies and shows. 

[Chyromaniac]

58 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I have a really dumb question: does Marvel still publish comics books?  Is there any NEW source material - characters or storylines - that movies can be based off of?  Why do we have to keep remaking the past? 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversation, too, since I've never seen an X-Men movie except Deadpool, but I don't think the X-Men movies should be made/remade until there is a completely new generation of actors, directors, and audience.  Even if there is new or unused source material for more X-Men movies, the actors (like Hugh Jackman, Ian McKellan, and Patrick Stewart) are all done now.  More movies won't be good until they can be totally revamped, and in my opinion, more time needs to pass for that.  For example, Superman movies were made in the 40s-50s, not again until the late 70s-80s, and then not again until 2006.  It's only been 20 years since the first X-Men movie, let alone the last...  Looks what's happened to the Spiderman movies.  They're a mess, IMO.

I get the impression that there is still plenty of untapped Avenger source material that the MCU can use, so it doesn't need to remake what's already been done, whether it was good or not.  JMO.  

I haven't read comics since I was a teen in the late 90's, but from what I understand the recent X-Men storylines have been really good - but also really weird.  From what I can tell, they would probably require a lot of explanation for casual audiences - shoot, I only kind of understand what's going on myself.  However, there is one recent concept that I think could be a pretty easy sell - somehow, versions of the 60's X-Men team got transported to the present, and had to deal with the cultural changes, as well as their older selves.  I think something similar could be a fun way to introduce mutants to the MCU.  Beyond that, the X-Men films have always featured a hodgepodge of characters from different eras.  I'd like to see them try one film about the core group.  I get that some people may be feeling X-Men fatigue - but I don't think the MCU is going to get to mutants for at least 2-3 years.  Hopefully by then there will be enough distance to for anyone burned out by the Fox films.  I feel like the only reason this has become a discussion topic now, is due to Evan Peters in WandaVision - and if nothing else, that show is telling us that they're not ready to do the X-Men just yet.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

I haven't read comics since I was a teen in the late 90's, but from what I understand the recent X-Men storylines have been really good - but also really weird.  From what I can tell, they would probably require a lot of explanation for casual audiences - shoot, I only kind of understand what's going on myself.  However, there is one recent concept that I think could be a pretty easy sell - somehow, versions of the 60's X-Men team got transported to the present, and had to deal with the cultural changes, as well as their older selves.  I think something similar could be a fun way to introduce mutants to the MCU.  Beyond that, the X-Men films have always featured a hodgepodge of characters from different eras.  I'd like to see them try one film about the core group.  I get that some people may be feeling X-Men fatigue - but I don't think the MCU is going to get to mutants for at least 2-3 years.  Hopefully by then there will be enough distance to for anyone burned out by the Fox films.  I feel like the only reason this has become a discussion topic now, is due to Evan Peters in WandaVision - and if nothing else, that show is telling us that they're not ready to do the X-Men just yet.

The introduction of mutants and the Fantastic Four to the MCU has been discussed since Nick Fury made the post credit scene in Iron Man. With WandaVision the latest content  perhaps it is hotter on this thread at the moment. However above someone pointed out that what the Kree are to the Inhumans the Eternals whose movie is due in November are to mutants so we are months away from an announcement I think

[FnkyChkn34]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Hell no 😂 I've been waiting years for Marvel to pick up the pieces that FOX Screwed up and give me a good X-Men Property.

As for the time, why? Spide-man has been rebooted 3 times in 15 years. Batman has been rebooted sooo many times but, just going from 1997 Batman and Robin to Batman Begins (2005 - 2012). Rebooted again with Batman vs Superman (2017) and, I'm not sure if The Batman 2021 is a reboot or AU.

I don't see any reason for MCU to sit on X Men for any longer than necessary to fit it into their Phase 5

Sorry, but you just answered your own question... 😉 Spiderman HAS been rebooted way too many times in too short of a period of time, and look at most of them - they're a mess. Plus they are not MCU so there's no consistency or cohesiveness. 

I thought of each of those Batman movies as basically stand alone movies, and again, they weren't that great. Is that what the MCU wants? Stand alone movies? I doubt it.

So that's why I think more time needs to pass before anyone tries again, at least with any main or recognizable character that's just been done. If they want to make a movie with a brand new character, that's about all that could work, IMO.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry, but you just answered your own question... 😉 Spiderman HAS been rebooted way too many times in too short of a period of time, and look at most of them - they're a mess. Plus they are not MCU so

The Garfield ones suck, I'll grant you that but, 2 of 3 Maguire movies were great and, I've loved both MCU Spider-Man movies.  I also don't really see people complaining or hating the MCU reboot.

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

thought of each of those Batman movies as basically stand alone movies, and again, they weren't that great. Is that what the MCU wants? Stand alone movies? I doubt it.

 The Nolan Trilogy was a Trilogy, and The Dark Knight was hands down the best Comic Book movie ever made (IMO). Batman, Batman II, Batman Forever and Batman and Robin were all part of the same "universe", they weren't reboots just recasting the actors that played Batman. It had the same actor for Alfred and, obviously the same Robin. So you went from 4 movies, a reboot, The wildly well received Nolan Trilogy (even if he didn't stick the landing) and then Batfleck and, now The Batman (which I am still not sure how that fits in, reboot, prequel, AU). 

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

So that's why I think more time needs to pass before anyone tries again, at least with any main or recognizable character that's just been done. If they want to make a movie with a brand new character, that's about all that could work, IMO.

That's fine but, it doesn't matter the X-Men will be in the MCU as soon as Deadpool 3 goes into production. So it's all kind of moot.  As for the rest, I expect we'll see Fantastic Four and X-Men starting with Phase 5 (2025, 2026).

Unless that rumor about Chris Evans coming back is to give me my Cap/Logan War Movie.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's straight out of Comics, Kree experimented on Humans creating Inhumans.

The Celestials came to Earth, experimented with humans and created The Eternals and Deviants (which MCU is introducing - at least the first group). If I remember correctly Mutants are descended from Eternals mixing with Early Humans.

Nope, the Celestials also gave the larger population of baseline humanity the potential to develop superpowers. Which manifested both as mutants and as people like Spider-Man, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four developing powers later in life in reaction to radiation or chemical exposure (rather than just getting sick or dying).

[swanpride]

There is no hurry to introduce the X-men. It is better to wait a little bit until even the most die-hard fans realise that using the same actors isn't an option anymore anyway. None of them get any younger after all.

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Raja said:

Yes  there are new stories but will Fiege think they are good enough for a movie or miniseries? In my case most of the second stories after the origin movie have been based on books after I stopped reading. Iron man 2 touching on Demon in a bottle being the exception 

Some newer stories have been adapted in the MCU - The Winter Soldier and Civil War stories are about fifteen years old, as opposed to being from the 70s or 80s, like Demon in a Bottle or Ragnarok. 

And a lot of MCU stuff is really loosely adapted from the comics anyway, taking bits from one story or another, or just making things up out of whole cloth - Ego the Living Planet isn't Peter Quill's father in the comics, for example. 

11 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I haven't read comics since I was a teen in the late 90's, but from what I understand the recent X-Men storylines have been really good - but also really weird.  From what I can tell, they would probably require a lot of explanation for casual audiences - shoot, I only kind of understand what's going on myself. 

It's incredibly dense, and I haven't read much of it myself for that reason - all the character dynamics and storylines that have been set up in the last several years are coming to a head, and a lot of continuity is being altered. As far as I can tell, anyway. It seems to be incredibly rewarding for devoted readers, but not very accessible to casual or new readers.

When people talk about big X-Men stories, they think of the Dark Phoenix Saga or Days of Future Past, or God Loves, Man Kills. There's also the alternate universe stuff, like Age of Apocalypse. 

I think Marvel would be better just creating an original storyline, incorporating elements of existing ones. But the problem is always going to be trying to put the mutants into an existing MCU world, without all the backstory of prejudice and hate that humans have for them.

26 minutes ago, swanpride said:

There is no hurry to introduce the X-men. It is better to wait a little bit until even the most die-hard fans realise that using the same actors isn't an option anymore anyway. None of them get any younger after all.

Well they aren't wasting much time with the Fantastic Four, which is incredibly daring considering the stink that franchise has all over it after two poor movies and one awful one. It will be interesting to see what happens with that, and what the audience reception is. A successful reboot of them could mean Marvel relax and settle on the mutants being slowly introduced as the X-gene is discovered and randomly powered individuals start to appear. Which is probably the best way to do it - Reed or Hank Pym or Bruce discover something interesting in the genetics of some guy who suddenly manifested powers and blew up a building and a slow drip-feed of hints at the emergence of mutants begins.

The quick way, obviously, is multiverses colliding and an alternate universe where mutants are long established merging with the MCU.

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Nope, the Celestials also gave the larger population of baseline humanity the potential to develop superpowers. Which manifested both as mutants and as people like Spider-Man, the Hulk, and the Fantastic Four developing powers later in life in reaction to radiation or chemical exposure (rather than just getting sick or dying).

Hmm, interesting. Been a while since I looked I wonder if the wiji i read it from (many years ago) was wrong or if I just remembered it wrong. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Well they aren't wasting much time with the Fantastic Four, which is incredibly daring considering the stink that franchise has all over it after two poor movies and one awful one.

True although we don't have a date. 

[swanpride]

They don't waste any time with the Fantastic four because for one there hasn't even been a Fantastic 4 movie with a sizable fanbase, two, they just happen to fit perfectly into their plan to go cosmic and three, the Fantastic Four Franchise contains a lot of villains which can be potentially used for the Avengers, too. It just makes sense to dive into them now. But the X-men? Not so easy.

[Anduin]

44 minutes ago, swanpride said:

They don't waste any time with the Fantastic four because for one there hasn't even been a Fantastic 4 movie with a sizable fanbase, two, they just happen to fit perfectly into their plan to go cosmic and three, the Fantastic Four Franchise contains a lot of villains which can be potentially used for the Avengers, too. It just makes sense to dive into them now. But the X-men? Not so easy.

Yes there has, only it was called The Incredibles. I know I'm the billionth person to state that, but it's still true. 🙂 Either way, the concept can work. Only the execution has been sloppy. With any luck, they'll crack it the next time around.

On the other big topic of the day, X-Men. If they do a movie with the original team, you think Iceman will be officially gay from the start?

[benteen]

X-Men is my favorite comic so I look forward to when Marvel starts doing X-Men movies.  One of the interesting things to see is what they will adapt.  I'd love to see an adaptation of Dark Phoenix after Fox bungled it twice although the original Dark Phoenix storyline is a strictly X-Men only affair.  Days of Future Past and God Loves, Man Kills have also be adapted.  Fall of the Mutants has the Mutant Registration Act, already brought up in the earlier X-Men films and similar to the whole Sokovia Accords.  Inferno was a massive, company-wide crossover focused on and starring the X-Men..  Age of Apocalypse hasn't been done yet (the most recent X-Men movie certainly wasn't that storyline).  There's a lot to choose from.

Edited March 8, 2021 by benteen

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

They don't waste any time with the Fantastic four because for one there hasn't even been a Fantastic 4 movie with a sizable fanbase, two, they just happen to fit perfectly into their plan to go cosmic and three, the Fantastic Four Franchise contains a lot of villains which can be potentially used for the Avengers, too. It just makes sense to dive into them now. But the X-men? Not so easy.

Yea if they make a new FF movie I don't think anyone is going to complain that the actors didn't do the characters justice like Ioan Gruffudd and Jessica Alba did. But anyone who plays a new Wolverine will absolutely hear that.

29 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Yes there has, only it was called The Incredibles. I know I'm the billionth person to state that, but it's still true. 🙂 Either way, the concept can work. Only the execution has been sloppy. With any luck, they'll crack it the next time around.

Wikipedia tells me that Jon Watts the guy who directed the MCU spider man movies will be directing fantastic four. Sounds good I guess guy I honestly don't understand why they didn't just hire Brad Bird.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wikipedia tells me that Jon Watts the guy who directed the MCU spider man movies will be directing fantastic four. Sounds good I guess guy I honestly don't understand why they didn't just hire Brad Bird.

Maybe (I don't know, just a guess on my part) that means that the new Fantastic Four movies will be marketed towards the younger audience as well, like Spiderman is (but not children, like the cartoon Incredibles).  That could also help the potential audience reactions because maybe teens don't remember Chris Evans and Jessica Alba in those roles.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

On the other big topic of the day, X-Men. If they do a movie with the original team, you think Iceman will be officially gay from the start?

That was a dumb move on Marvel's part. X-Men already had gay and bisexual characters, that hadn't been explored. I'd rather get actual development for those characters than, a cheap attention grab of ohhh let's make Bobby Drake gay now. Seriously where is my Rictor/Shatterstar romance!...yes yes I know about Shatterstar but, that's what would make their relationship special 😍 

That being said, he's gay in the comics so it would be awful to put him back in the closet. If he's a kid use the time to explore him coming out, if he's an adult just make him gay 

1 hour ago, benteen said:

X-Men is my favorite comic so I look forward to when Marvel starts doing X-Men movies.  One of the interesting things to see is what they will adapt.  I'd love to see an adaptation of Dark Phoenix after Fox bungled it twice although the original Dark Phoenix storyline is a strictly X-Men only affair.  

MCU needs to stay far away from Phoenix/Dark Phoenix for awhile. That's something you build up to. Unfortunately, my favorite crossovers are kind of dependent on Dark Phoenix (X-Cutioners Song, Inferno and From the Ashes). So I'm left with stories i don't particularly like (Onslaught) or ones I don't know (X-Tinction Agenda).

Edited March 8, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[swanpride]

I can imagine that Marvel will do the Phoenix Saga one day, but they will be way more sneaky about it and take their time. But there is also no point to rush into the X-men. I mean, let's examine what they currently have on their plate:

1. GotG, Ant-man, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Spider-man all need at least one sequel, in some cases two, because that's what the audience expects.

2. The Eternals are about to get introduced.

3. They are clearly working towards the Young Avengers and frankly, they can't delay them for too long because Cassie doesn't get any younger.

4. There are clearly plans for the Fantastic Four, and if you do the Fantastic Four, also doing the Silver Surfer is kind of a given, isn't it?

 

Hello, this is more than enough material for the next five years, if not the next decade. And on top of this there are properties which have never been explored at all, but would certainly be worth picking up, like the Savage Lands (honestly, Superheroes AND Dinosaurs? The Box office would explode if that is done right), Namor (provided that the Disney Lawyers successfully cleared up the rights question, but Namor is currently more topical than any other Superhero).

 

So why should they do another take on the X-men immediately? Why not simply allowing Deadpool to play around a little bit and worrying about what will happen with the X-men later on? There is no hurry. Hell, if the MCU really becomes too unwieldy one day, the X-men might be the perfect option for a new start into a different kind of universe.

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

They don't waste any time with the Fantastic four because for one there hasn't even been a Fantastic 4 movie with a sizable fanbase, two, they just happen to fit perfectly into their plan to go cosmic and three, the Fantastic Four Franchise contains a lot of villains which can be potentially used for the Avengers, too. It just makes sense to dive into them now. But the X-men? Not so easy.

My point was that if they can successfully relaunch the Fantastic Four then they'll be set up for another phase of the MCU without feeling any urgent need for the X-Men. Especially because the crossover potential of the Fantastic Four is so great, as well as Doom and Galactus (who are really the only FF villains that Feige and Marvel are likely to really want in the MCU).

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea if they make a new FF movie I don't think anyone is going to complain that the actors didn't do the characters justice like Ioan Gruffudd and Jessica Alba did. But anyone who plays a new Wolverine will absolutely hear that.

Wolverine, yes. And Xavier and Magneto as well, thanks to Patrick Stewart and Sir Ian McKellan. But Jean, Cyclops, Iceman, Storm etc? I don't think many of Fox's characters would be considered definitive or hard to match.

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That was a dumb move on Marvel's part. X-Men already had gay and bisexual characters, that hadn't been explored. I'd rather get actual development for those characters than, a cheap attention grab of ohhh let's make Bobby Drake gay now. Seriously where is my Rictor/Shatterstar romance!...yes yes I know about Shatterstar but, that's what would make their relationship special 😍 

I don't think it was a dumb move. Yes, Marvel had some gay characters already, but mostly they were characters few people cared about. Northstar, Moon Dragon, Phyla-Vell, Daken, who gives a fuck about them? Wiccan and Hulkling were popular but had no presence outside the Young Avengers. Rictor and Shatterstar were in a relationship in X-Factor, but again they're hardly prominent characters.

Marvel wanted an established, well known X-Men character to come out of the closet, and Bobby was the best choice - He's a character that everyone has at least heard of, either from comics, movies or the old Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends show. He's also one of the few X-Men without any long term, high profile romances that fans cared about.

The coming out aspect is important because it addressed the issues of actually figuring out who you are and coming to terms with your sexuality. That even people who have lived for years thinking they're straight can be gay. I think that's a valuable message to send to readers.

Were some fans pissed off? Of course, but there's always a subsection of comic book fans who hate anything that isn't about straight, white dudes punching bad guys. 

Quote

MCU needs to stay far away from Phoenix/Dark Phoenix for awhile. That's something you build up to. Unfortunately, my favorite crossovers are kind of dependent on Dark Phoenix (X-Cutioners Song, Inferno and From the Ashes). So I'm left with stories i don't particularly like (Onslaught) or ones I don't know (X-Tinction Agenda).

The Dark Phoenix Saga worked in the comics because fans loved Jean and were invested in her as well as in her romance with Scott. The movies never had that emotional investment because Famke Janssen's Jean was bland and used mostly to tease romance with Wolverine, while Sophie Turner's Jean was... I don't even know what her character was. Hell, I don't even know what that Dark Phoenix movie was supposed to be.

They can't do the Phoenix Saga again until it could be an Infinity War level event, and even then I'm not sure they should touch it. I'd rather see them do the Mutant Massacre or Fall of the Mutants as their big, transformative event.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Danny Franks

[FnkyChkn34]

51 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I can imagine that Marvel will do the Phoenix Saga one day, but they will be way more sneaky about it and take their time. But there is also no point to rush into the X-men. I mean, let's examine what they currently have on their plate:

1. GotG, Ant-man, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, Spider-man all need at least one sequel, in some cases two, because that's what the audience expects.

2. The Eternals are about to get introduced.

3. They are clearly working towards the Young Avengers and frankly, they can't delay them for too long because Cassie doesn't get any younger.

4. There are clearly plans for the Fantastic Four, and if you do the Fantastic Four, also doing the Silver Surfer is kind of a given, isn't it?

 

Hello, this is more than enough material for the next five years, if not the next decade. And on top of this there are properties which have never been explored at all, but would certainly be worth picking up, like the Savage Lands (honestly, Superheroes AND Dinosaurs? The Box office would explode if that is done right), Namor (provided that the Disney Lawyers successfully cleared up the rights question, but Namor is currently more topical than any other Superhero).

 

So why should they do another take on the X-men immediately? Why not simply allowing Deadpool to play around a little bit and worrying about what will happen with the X-men later on? There is no hurry. Hell, if the MCU really becomes too unwieldy one day, the X-men might be the perfect option for a new start into a different kind of universe.

There's also Shang-Chi, and still more Thor movies if they really want to; Hemsworth has said he's willing to keep playing him.

[benteen]

I've said this before but I wish the X-Men would be a big-budget Disney Plus series instead of a movie series.  Then you could build up characters that the audience cares about.  Jean Grey became Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #101 and the conclusion of that particular storyline was Uncanny X-Men #137.  X-Men was a bi-monthly comic until issue 112 so you are talking about a nearly five year storyline that built up Jean as well as the All-New, All-Different X-Men team.  That run, which John Byrne joined in Issue 108 was incredible.  From Uncanny X-Men 125-143, you had The Proteus Saga, The Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past and the first Kitty Pryde solo story.  Characters introduced during that run were Kitty, Emma Frost, the Hellfire Club, Dazzler and Rachel Summers.  Mystique, whom Chris Claremont had introduced in Ms. Marvel, was moved to Uncanny X-Men to lead a new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.  I'd be happy with the X-Men being a Disney Plus series with the occasional movie.  It would never happen but one can always hope.

Edited March 8, 2021 by benteen

[swanpride]

See, I had totally forgotten about Shang-Chi and Thor.

Point is there is a lot Marvel can do without even touching the X-men. In their streaming shows, too. Because there is already a long line-up waiting in the woods, too, and the list seems to be getting longer and longer.

Though, yeah, maybe the X-men would be better served in this format, too. The X-men work better if they explore "smaller" stories about Mutants dealing with their abilities, or "long" stories which show their struggles. They aren't really that suited for the big screen (partly because you need a lot of them for a proper X-men story).

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't think it was a dumb move. Yes, Marvel had some gay characters already, but mostly they were characters few people cared about. Northstar, Moon Dragon, Phyla-Vell, Daken, who gives a fuck about them? Wiccan and Hulkling were popular but had no presence outside the Young Avengers. Rictor and Shatterstar were in a relationship in X-Factor, but again they're hardly prominent characters.

Marvel wanted an established, well known X-Men character to come out of the closet, and Bobby was the best choice - He's a character that everyone has at least heard of, either from comics, movies or the old Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends show. He's also one of the few X-Men without any long term, high profile romances that fans cared about.

 

I guess that's my problem, I actually liked those characters and, wanted more of those characters and, felt that it would be better to elevate an already gay character, give them actual stories then do a last minute flip on a known straight character. 

I get what you're saying they wanted a known character but, to me that's the problem. I don't know if I explained it right but, it's not oh how dare they turn Bobby Gay...it's why didn't you give love and attention to any of the known characters!? 

I do understand that they wanted a coming out story and, Teen Bobby was their vehicle but, I would have preferred they gave some of my faves some love and, a good story instead of standing in the background. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

See, I had totally forgotten about Shang-Chi and Thor.

Black Widow, Thor, Shang-Chi, Blade, Black Panther 2, Strange 2, Spider-Man 3, Eternals, Captain Marvel 2, GotG3, Ant-Man.

That's just shy of 3 years worth of movies since Marvel drops 4 movies a year. Throw in Avengers and Fantastic 4 and you just complete Phase 4 at the end of 2023.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[AimingforYoko]

24 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Black Widow, Thor, Shang-Chi, Blade, Black Panther 2, Strange 2, Spider-Man 3, Eternals, Captain Marvel 2, GotG3, Ant-Man.

That's just shy of 3 years worth of movies since Marvel drops 4 movies a year. Throw in Avengers and Fantastic 4 and you just complete Phase 4 at the end of 2023.

Are we sure Avengers 5 is in Phase 4?

[tennisgurl]

I could get into an X-Men TV show through Disney Plus. A consistent issue in the movies has been that the X-Men have so many characters and their stories are so big and complex and involve such a massive cast, its hard to just cliff notes so much of it. Its why, in my opinion, the best X-Men movies just told a new story with the X-Men that was more loosely based on individual comic stories, they have struggled when they try a more direct adaptation, like their attempts at adapting the Dark Phoenix story. However, if they had a whole TV show that could also tie into the movies, then you could set up a ton of characters and actually give them a lot to do (which the movies couldn't due to time constraints) individually or in parings and groups, engage in a lot of world building about how mutants will fit into the MCU, and do a lot to build them up so we can lead up to the "big" stories in the movies. So maybe audiences could just watch the movies and basically get it, but you could watch the show to get the broader context. That might be a bit complicated so I dont know if that is actually what they will do, but I am very interested in how they will be handled in the MCU. Something the MCU has done well is to really distill popular characters into what really makes them work as characters and focus on the aspects of them and their mythology that can best be adapted into a film, but without as much continuity behind them so they are accessible both to comic fans and to the causal viewer, so I am interested in what they would decide to focus on with the X-Men and their characters. 

[swanpride]

Every phase so far had an Avengers movie...question is how long Phase 4 is supposed to be. So far every phase has been just as long or longer than the one beforehand (six movies is Phase 1, six in Phase 2, eleven in Phase 3). For all we know, Phase 4 might contain 15 movies or more. Plus the Streaming shows.

 

[Danny Franks]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I could get into an X-Men TV show through Disney Plus. A consistent issue in the movies has been that the X-Men have so many characters and their stories are so big and complex and involve such a massive cast, its hard to just cliff notes so much of it. Its why, in my opinion, the best X-Men movies just told a new story with the X-Men that was more loosely based on individual comic stories, they have struggled when they try a more direct adaptation, like their attempts at adapting the Dark Phoenix story. However, if they had a whole TV show that could also tie into the movies, then you could set up a ton of characters and actually give them a lot to do (which the movies couldn't due to time constraints) individually or in parings and groups, engage in a lot of world building about how mutants will fit into the MCU, and do a lot to build them up so we can lead up to the "big" stories in the movies. So maybe audiences could just watch the movies and basically get it, but you could watch the show to get the broader context. That might be a bit complicated so I dont know if that is actually what they will do, but I am very interested in how they will be handled in the MCU. Something the MCU has done well is to really distill popular characters into what really makes them work as characters and focus on the aspects of them and their mythology that can best be adapted into a film, but without as much continuity behind them so they are accessible both to comic fans and to the causal viewer, so I am interested in what they would decide to focus on with the X-Men and their characters. 

If the budget and ambition were sufficient, and Disney were committed to multiple seasons, then an X-Men TV show would be better than a series of movies, for me.

I prefer the long form storytelling that TV shows allow, and the extra character development you get from ten or twenty hours of TV over a two hour movie. And the soap opera elements of the X-Men have always been a key part of their appeal - Cyclops and Jean's relationship, with Wolverine and Emma Frost as interlopers, Gambit and Rogue, family drama with the Drakes, betrayals and walkouts and Professor X being a manipulative weirdo. You really don't get enough of that in a movie because there's no time for it between the big action set pieces.

I still want to see an X-Factor Investigations show, headlined by Madrox as the trope-embracing private eye with identity issues.

[Tenshinhan]

You could say that about any Marvel Comics property, or really any comic book series.  That they are better suited for television than film.  That's just how comic books are written.