All Episodes Discussion

[Ohmo]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:53 AM, Court said:

But when he said "those people", I wanted to punch him in the mouth. Asshole.

On the other side of the spectrum, we have all of the awesome people in the Nicaraguan justice system who threw the book at Orlando for killing Haley Anderson.  Well done!  Mad props to the judge.

Plus, if Orlando does ever try to enter the United States again, he can be tried for her murder here as well.

[lb60]

Here's hoping the next 30 years in a Nicaraguan penitentiary wipes the smug off of Orlando's face.  

RIP Haley.                                                                                                                                                                                     

[TVbitch]

For a moment there I thought this was going to be another tale of hor corrupt/inept foreign judicial systems are, but was happily suprised.

Orlando's friends seemed terribly obtuse to the facts, though. 

[sainte-chapelle]

The judge in Nicaragua was not having it. I had a feeling they were going to blame the 'drunk American slut' for corrupting the poor boy. He couldn't control her so he killed her, period.

[druzy]

I don't know what to think about the Mary Day story, I kept going back and forth. I thought she was another daughter the mother had and then I thought she was the real Mary Day. No matter what, it's sad. A little girl that was abused and handed back to her abusers. A woman who died and no one had a funeral for her. 

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, druzy said:

A woman who died and no one had a funeral for her. 

That was utterly heartbreaking to read. Yeah, whether she's Mary or not, the fact remains her life was shit overall either way and it had a tragic end either way. And if she's not Mary, on top of all the other crap in her life, her own parents were taking advantage of and using her for their own selfish desire to protect themselves. 

But yes, I find myself still on the fence a bit, too. I can totally buy the parents trying to cover things up-I mean, why the hell would the stepfather make those weird comments about some demon possessing him, and why would his wife act so freaking shifty, if they were so innocent? And with the family being so fractured as it was, with kids being removed from the home and whatnot, I don't rule out the possibility of a "secret daughter", as it were. And as the one investigator noted, those dogs clearly found something during their searches. 

But yes, the DNA evidence is pretty significant, too, and she definitely looks a lot like the Mary in question. And if the woman is actually Mary, then what the hell's the deal with that tiny shoe they found? Between that shoe, the dogs' intense focus on those two areas (that can't be a mere coincidence), and the parents' bizarre behavior, even if it's true they've found Mary and resolved that case, they still need to keep looking into those parents anyway, because something really creepy and weird is/was clearly going on there. 

Such a bizarre, sad case. 

[Ohmo]

My gut says she wasn't Mary.  She was still screwed over by her parents, but I think she was Charlotte's daughter yet not Mary.  The dogs alerting in the backyard is big for me.  There were human remains in the backyard at one time.  The only options I see with that scenario are the one we saw in the episode or she was indeed Mary and her parents killed another unknown  child.

Those parents are horrific, and it bothers me that they have almost certainly gotten away with some sort of crime.

[txhorns79]

15 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

My gut says she wasn't Mary.  She was still screwed over by her parents, but I think she was Charlotte's daughter yet not Mary. 

During the episode, they said that Phoenix Mary took DNA tests that matched her to Charlotte and Mary Day's deceased biological father.  With those results, it is extremely unlikely that Phoenix Mary could be someone other than Mary Day.  I'll grant you that the episode did a good job of misleading the audience into thinking this was an open question, but they did eventually clear the issue up..     

[druzy]

26 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

My gut says she wasn't Mary.  She was still screwed over by her parents, but I think she was Charlotte's daughter yet not Mary.  The dogs alerting in the backyard is big for me.  There were human remains in the backyard at one time.  The only options I see with that scenario are the one we saw in the episode or she was indeed Mary and her parents killed another unknown  child.

Those parents are horrific, and it bothers me that they have almost certainly gotten away with some sort of crime.

My gut says the same. Where was her sister Billie Jean? Also, who was Morrie Kimmel? How did her daughter meet Mary/ Monica? Why wouldn't Morrie ask Mary were she lived and about her family before allowing her to live with her? I also would need more details about the person who gave DNA in lieu of her father. 

If they are going to rely on age progression programs, then this doesn't look like the Mary that passed away.

[biakbiak]

24 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

During the episode, they said that Phoenix Mary took DNA tests that matched her to Charlotte and Mary Day's deceased biological father.  With those results, it is extremely unlikely that Phoenix Mary could be someone other than Mary Day.  I'll grant you that the episode did a good job of misleading the audience into thinking this was an open question, but they did eventually clear the issue up..     

Seriously, the fact that she also was the biological daughter of the birth father was said as an aside. I was curious about their birth father given that he had apparently some funds and the wisdom to set up trusts for the girls. 

 

10 minutes ago, druzy said:

If they are going to rely on age progression programs, then this doesn't look like the Mary that passed away.

 

Age progression gets less accurate the longer it goes out because of other factors like disease, alcohol/drug abuse, nutrition etc.. The one on the show was only a few years. That said I do think that age progression there does look like the Mugshot when she was first arrested in Phoenix. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by biakbiak

[Ohmo]

34 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

During the episode, they said that Phoenix Mary took DNA tests that matched her to Charlotte and Mary Day's deceased biological father.

I thought the match was to Charlotte but NOT Mary Louise's biological father.  I seem to remember a line in the episode that only a maternal tie could be definitively established.

[biakbiak]

14 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I thought the match was to Charlotte but NOT Mary Louise's biological father.  I seem to remember a line in the episode that only a maternal tie could be definitively established.

Later in the episode they said that she did match the biological father of the girls that is what closed the case. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by biakbiak

[12catcrazy]

Such a weird and heartbreaking story!  I have to agree with just about all the other posts here - and it now seems like the mystery is who was apparently once buried in the areas that the cadaver dogs sniffed out and how strange was it that the dogs sniffed out areas in TWO different locations where these people lived.  

Maybe there was a different, young, child who was killed (thus the very small shoe) who the other girls don't remember?  Or was this possible victim even a child of this family or another child who "the demon" murdered?  Back in the 80s there was almost a hysteria in this country about "Satanic Cults" and all sorts of people got pulled into this craziness.   That mother - words just can't express - and the step-father - he probably got away with murdering SOMEBODY, but who? 

[TVbitch]

When she finally allowed the correspondent an interview only days before her death, I was thinking she either is Mary or she will unburden herself from the lie at that time. The correspondent seemed to believe her. 

In any case, I remain astounded that some people are allowed to have custody of children. 

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Later in the episode they said that she did match the biological father of the girls that is what closed the case.

Yes.  There was no secret sibling called into action to impersonate Mary, and no buried body of Mary moved around as the family moved to various locations. 

2 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

I have to agree with just about all the other posts here - and it now seems like the mystery is who was apparently once buried in the areas that the cadaver dogs sniffed out and how strange was it that the dogs sniffed out areas in TWO different locations where these people lived.  

You could also look at it from the perspective that the dogs were brought to the property about 20 years after the family lived there.  The same goes for the signaling at Fort Ord, where the property had thousands of people go through it at a given time, and had been open to trespassers and the elements since it shut down in the 1990s.  My main point being that the show wanted us to think the signaling was meaningful, when the reality was it very easily could have had nothing to do with this particular family.        

[Soobs]

34 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Yes.  There was no secret sibling called into action to impersonate Mary, and no buried body of Mary moved around as the family moved to various locations. 

You could also look at it from the perspective that the dogs were brought to the property about 20 years after the family lived there.  The same goes for the signaling at Fort Ord, where the property had thousands of people go through it at a given time, and had been open to trespassers and the elements since it shut down in the 1990s.  My main point being that the show wanted us to think the signaling was meaningful, when the reality was it very easily could have had nothing to do with this particular family.        

I grew up in the area and was about 10 when this happened. I have never heard of this case until this week. I do remember a case a few years after where the father on base had left the family (either AWOL or he was off on assignment) and there were many kids in the family that  a young boy (12 or 13) was left in charge of. They were all going hungry and the boy feeling overwhelmed hung himself in the garage of the home. There was a lot of fall out from this and the military was accused of not appropriately supporting families. Several changes were made after this.

In regards to this case, back then the stepdad could have killed her and then they moved on.  I keep going back to the Southern accent.  Her story made it sound like she stuck around the west. If it was really her then why did she appear independently of the parents? A lot of signs point to it being someone else but then she had the same DNA as both parents so....

I agree though that the cadaver dogs hitting on something on the base is meaningless. Homeless people have died out there of natural causes, there have also been murders and body dumps. The most well known is the murder of a young girl, Christina Williams which happened in the 90's. The killer was just recently caught and convicted through DNA. They think he probably killed more people out there as well. Even though a lot of it is a college campus today, it's a creepy place.

Lots of loose ends in this case that will probably never be tied together.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Soobs

[biakbiak]

44 minutes ago, Soobs said:

grew up in the area and was about 10 when this happened. I have never heard of this case until this week.

I don’t know if you still live there but it wasn’t a case until 2003 because no one went to the authorities about her going missing until the sister was an adult. 

[Lovecat]

On 5/3/2020 at 11:33 AM, druzy said:

Where was her sister Billie Jean?

Is that the 4th child in the family picture they kept showing?

[UsernameFatigue]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:44 AM, biakbiak said:

Seriously, the fact that she also was the biological daughter of the birth father was said as an aside. I was curious about their birth father given that he had apparently some funds and the wisdom to set up trusts for the girls. 

 

Age progression gets less accurate the longer it goes out because of other factors like disease, alcohol/drug abuse, nutrition etc.. The one on the show was only a few years. That said I do think that age progression there does look like the Mugshot when she was first arrested in Phoenix. 

I thought that the funds in the trust came from some kind of payout as they said the bio dad died in an accident, So maybe either an insurance policy, or some kind of payout depending on what type of accident he died in - work place, car, etc. 

I have no problem believing that Phoenix Mary was Mary Day. I thought Phoenix Mary's mug shot  looked even more like teenager Mary than the age progression picture. And I think it was a reach for the police to think there was another daughter that was older, and given up for adoption because the mother had fooled around on the father, given that Phoenix Mary had the same bio dad as Mary Day. I also thought it was far fetched to think that the mother and step father would then track down the now adult daughter, and convince her to save her mother - who gave her up for adoption and is a stranger - because mom's husband killed her younger bio sister and they need to produce a living person. 

I also thought in the interviews with Phoenix Mary, her answers made sense. Also in the picture shown just before P Mary died, she still looked so much like teenage Mary. I think what the female cop at the end said is true - you have to look at the evidence, not make what you think is true fit the "evidence". We have certainly seen that time and time again in these crime shows.

As far as the cadaver dogs goes, who knows? I watched a show recently about a missing child. Police were given a tip that the child was buried in the back yard of the family home. They brought in cadaver dogs who found nothing so they did not dig, even though the caller gave a specific part of the yard. Several years later the murderer confessed to get a deal, and led them to the exact spot that the tipster had said, where the body was then recovered. Not the same scenario of course, but they are not infallible. 

[Vivigirl10]

Haley Anderson's story is such a scary one.  Kids should be free to socialize and date, and trusting others is just a part of that.  Should you just lock yourself in your room when you're in college and not make friends?  I don't think Haley did anything risky to put herself in harms way.  She was just living the way the majority of young college women do.  And all it takes is one freak to end your life.  It could have happened (or happen to) any one of us.  So very sad.   

The sister who was raised apart from Mary made amends with her at the end.  What about the other sister who was in the home with her?  She said she sensed it wasn't Mary.  I wonder if she ever resolved herself to the fact that it really was?  That was just an odd story.

[LemonSoda]

Mary Day was such a heartbreaking story. What a haunting mystery! I’m curious what the dogs picked up. 
The accent was one of the strangest parts of the mystery to me. But several years ago I knew a guy who fell out of life, regular society. Not only did his personality shift but his accent, way of speaking completely changed. It was odd. 

[Vivigirl10]

Was last night's episode about the girlfriend who "accidentally" shot her boyfriend in the neck a rerun?  I am really curious to hear what others thought.  Mary Katherine seemed like an unstable, raving lunatic to me and in her current interview, the crying appeared extremely fake with no tears.  However, on the stand she must have been one heck of an actress because that was hard to watch.  Did anyone believe her story?

If I were Steven's Mom I would've had a hard time staying seated while my son's name was dragged through the mud.  The "bombshell" texts he sent her weren't really that shocking to me.  Mary Katherine had cheated on him.  I think texting nasty comments to her would be pretty par for the course.  The claims of abuse seemed about as lukewarm as you could drum up.  The "red room" references really could have meant a million different things - an inside joke even.  It all came down to her story against a dead man who couldn't defend himself.  

 

[12catcrazy]

Frankly, I think that little Miss Mary Katherine got away with murder.  The police department really screwed that up big time in a few ways - the screw up with the sound was only a part of it.  

I sure don't think that the victim deserved to be killed but I'll tell you, this story reminded me of the old Ann Landers saying of "The rocks in her head matched the holes in his".    And guns and angry, over emotional people are not a good match.  

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

And guns and angry, over emotional people are not a good match.  

Exactly what I was thinking throughout the episodes. You have that many guns in your house like that, you're frankly just asking for trouble. 

Quote

The police department really screwed that up big time in a few ways - the screw up with the sound was only a part of it.  

Agreed. Even if one thinks Mary's guilty, when the police bungle an investigation like that, they have nobody to blame but themselves for the outcome. 

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle in regards to who was the volatile one in the relationship. They seemed to be the sort of couple that, when you put them together, it's like oil and water, and they brought out the worst in each other. But yeah, Mary had to know that her "accident" claim was going to be scrutinized, given her experience with and ownership of so many guns. She knew exactly what she was doing pointing that gun at him. I'm not a gun owner, have no personal experience with guns, and even I know that any gun owner worth their salt would say that you always treat guns as though they're loaded, even if you know they aren't, and you never point a gun at someone if you aren't intending to use it on them, or threatening to do so. 

I'm also always skeptical of claims of guns going off "accidentally"-I'm not denying there may well be instances where that happens, but I've watched enough shows like this with demonstrations about how guns work to know that they're made in such a way where it's quite hard for that to happen. And for good reason, obviously. 

[Ohmo]

44 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I'm not a gun owner, have no personal experience with guns, and even I know that any gun owner worth their salt would say that you always treat guns as though they're loaded, even if you know they aren't, and you never point a gun at someone if you aren't intending to use it on them, or threatening to do so. 

That's one of the reasons I think she knowingly did it.  Not only was she a gun owner, but she worked in a gun store.

I also thought her crying was fake and insincere.  Another thing.  If she were abused and didn't text it out, OK, but she said she talked to friends.  I want to hear from the friends, just like we heard from his friends.  I believe his friends, and I believe she turned on the Southern belle in distress routine and got away with murder.  Something about the way she cried bugged me.  Like she was really putting effort into it.

[pinkandsparkly13]

Yeah I never saw any tears from her, even in the courtroom. Her right eye got a little watery, but that was it. Besides the texts saying he was going to punish her, the others weren't THAT bad. He was just angry that she slept with his friends. I actually paused it to read some of the texts and it was interesting  that he said she was everything people said she was and they sort of warned him about getting involved with her. The first ones that they showed weren't even bad. He was saying how he loved her and was upset that she seemed to ignore him while she had friends over. He said when she did talk to him she was just mean and rude and whatever. Anyway I can see why they found her not guilty. There was reasonable doubt there, although I don't think it was an accident. 

[TVbitch]

I also freeze and read all the texts when they do that, and he never really threatened her.

I was trying to keep an open mind but she pretty much confessed again to the reporter! She said she wanted Steven to come over because SHE was going to break up with HIM. Right. So you make a nice London broil and send 5000 texts trying to get him to come over ...so you can break up with him. Then she says he was mean and she felt threatened and had the gun and told him to get the fuck out of her house. The reporter asks what happened next. She freezes, tries to cry, and stutters out, I don't know, he laid down and there was blood coming out of his neck. I mean, she said it! He never lunged at her or threatened her. He just disrespected her London broil! 

I think that one juror was just getting his he-man on and convinced the other jurors. 

Also the judge throws a priceless WTF face when Mary brings up their "50 Shades of Gray" room. I kept rewatching it. 

[Ohmo]

10 hours ago, pinkandsparkly13 said:

There was reasonable doubt there, although I don't think it was an accident. 

See, I don't think there was reasonable doubt there.  She DID shoot him.  The "doubt" (if there was any) was about her claims of domestic violence,  I think that she got a HUGE benefit of gender bias that he did not because she was a woman and he was a man, There was a victim of domestic violence here, but it was Steven (in my opinion). Even allowing for the fact that she did not report and neither did he, he had friends who said that they had all witnessed incidents of her instability.  He had his co-workers saying that she was blowing up his phone with texts.  She had a phone from a year ago with texts that came after she was unfaithful.  Even if the cops didn't crack his phone, they would have seen any similar treatment from him to her on her phone.  He was not blowing her phone up with texts when he died.  In fact, he was actively making plans to get away from her. We are encouraged to believe the victim, and I do----the victim being Steven,

This reminds me of Jodi Arias and Shayna Hubers in Kentucky.  They also were the abusers and killed their boyfriends.  Mary Katherine got away with it.

I also don't agree that the jury let her be completely free.  Even with the issues with the investigation, they knew that she shot him,  They had evidence and testimony from the blood-spatter expert that he was not a threat to her.  Convict her of the lesser charge, but don't let her go free.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

I'm also disturbed by the two jurors because they didn't seem to understand what they did.  I don't agree with their interpretation, but for the sake of argument, let's go with their interpretation.

There's the 911 call where she says she shot him. The juror says that she shot him, and that was wrong.

If you can express that something "wrong" happened, but the investigation bothers you, hang the jury.  Then, maybe the cops would have cracked Steven's phone for the second trial. Prosecutors often talk to juries after mistrials.

However, those two jurors somehow thought that a bungled investigation meant that nothing could be proven, and that was not true. Since those two didn't think critically about what they were doing, she is now free as a bird.  If she harms someone else, they will have a lot on their consciences.

[Ohmo]

No comments on Todd Mullis?  I'm not sure that I could have convicted him.  Not that I think he's fantastic, but Amy died in a gruesome manner.  To not have any blood on him was odd, and his son did see him again.

If she were having an affair with Jerry, he knows that farm, and it was enormous.  He could have done it and probably gotten off of the property without being seen.

Amy's dizziness is another factor. It would be among the freakiest of accidents, but she did have some sort of medical procedure days earlier.

I also think Amy could have done the internet searches. She was the cheating spouse, and this was the second time she had done so.  If there were wedding dress searches and Pinterest searches in there, I don't think there's any way to definitively exclude either one of them as being the searcher.

Todd could have killed Amy, but I don't think the state proved that he did.

I feel sorry for Trystan.  He was in a no-win situation.

[Annber03]

I'm curious to know where the rake often sat in that shed. Was it attached to something on the wall, or was it propped up against something? Something to explain the possibility of Amy accidentally bumping into it or knocking it, and having it fall on her? I feel that should've been part of the investigation at some point, especially if the defense was trying to say it was an accident.

Even then, though, if the rake fell on her and knocked her down, would it land that hard to dig all those holes into her body? And if so, that still doesn't exactly explain how six holes appeared on her body. She was found face down with the thing sticking out of her back, that doesn't quite square with it being a simple accident. It'd have to have fell with some pretty strong force to dig into her body like it did. 

I have no problem believing her husband could've done it-he was upset about her affairs, to the point of being controlling, and there's potential holes in the alibi about him being with his son that day. I think he had the strongest motive to kill her. Yes, Jerry was having an affair with her, and yes, his wife finding out would be a problem (though I sense she already suspected when Todd was calling Jerry and his wife to try and ask around about the affair), but I just didn't quite get the sense that he had the kind of anger towards her that her husband did. There were moments during the trial where they kept showing Todd's face when Jerry talked about the affair and he looked like he was about ready to confront Jerry over it right then and there. 

13 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

If she were having an affair with Jerry, he knows that farm, and it was enormous.  He could have done it and probably gotten off of the property without being seen.

He'd also have to time it with the knowledge of their morning routines, and know how long they take in order to get in and get out without anyone knowing. It's not necessarily impossible, but it does seem odd that he'd risk committing that crime while the rest of the family was on the property. Plus, one would think there'd be some hint of evidence he'd been there, unless he managed to hide his tracks really well. 

As for the searches, given some of her conflicted feelings, I could perhaps see Amy doing the one wondering about what happens to cheaters throughout history out of guilt. And her loved ones did mention her being all, "If anything happens to me...", which is never a good sign, so maybe, if she was doing those searches, she did them out of fear of what her husband might do if he found out about the affair? 

But I can also easily see Todd making those searches, both because of his anger over her affairs and also because I've just seen far too many shows with killers who are dumb enough to do searches on the very crimes they commit :p. 

All of that being said, I do agree that it would've been nice to have physical evidence to help back up some of the claims, and the point you and people in the show made about the lack of blood is an important one to consider. And if he did manage to slip away from his son at some point, it would've been good to get a better idea of the general time frame. 

24 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I feel sorry for Trystan.  He was in a no-win situation.

Agreed. They talked about how he was trying to do right by both his parents, but I also wondered, if Todd did indeed do it, if he was being pressured by his dad on what to say, and he couldn't keep up that lie very long. 

Also, hey, this case took place here in Iowa! Always so proud...:p. 

[Fable]

I agree that there wasn’t really enough to convict.  Yeah, he had motive, but no physical evidence, and you would think there would have to be some blood evidence on the husband in such a violent crime.  The fact that he didn’t call 911 did give me pause though.  I thought the internet searches were weak though, given that most people typically search various ways to kill someone or hide a body, not what happens to cheaters.  Very strange case. 

[biakbiak]

I found it odd that the show hired two lawyers to present the defense’s case and who were strong advocates for him and than hired a third who was much more neutral and not really arguing the prosecution case in a similar manner so it felt very off balance. 

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

He'd also have to time it with the knowledge of their morning routines, and know how long they take in order to get in and get out without anyone knowing. It's not necessarily impossible, but it does seem odd that he'd risk committing that crime while the rest of the family was on the property. Plus, one would think there'd be some hint of evidence he'd been there, unless he managed to hide his tracks really well. 

I'm not even saying that Jerry planned it.  What if he just decided to show up and talk to her in the shed, they got into an argument, he picked up the corn rake, and it just happened?  Or as you said, was the corn rake on the wall?  I do think Todd was capable of doing it, but being capable doesn't mean he did.  We also say Amy's coat.  He got none of that on him?  Even though Trystan lost sight of him, it wasn't long enough for him to commit the murder, get to the house, and change clothes. If Jerry surprised Amy, something happened, he did it, Todd and Trystan were in the barn. The other two children were in the house. Jerry could have gotten away with no one seeing blood on his clothes.

1 hour ago, Fable said:

The fact that he didn’t call 911 did give me pause though.

That didn't faze me that much.  Ohio has several rural areas like that. Phone service and cell service in general is crappy.  In a moment pf crisis like that, I could see him just wanting to get her in the truck and start driving.

[LakeGal]

I think the husband did it.  I also think he was strongly advising his son what he saw and remembered.  The son would say things like both his father and himself saw her dizzy and worried she would fall.  I do believe the son was remembering things as they were told to him.  But as the prosecution asked questions he realized a few things were not what he knew but what he assumed.  Dad did the thing that always makes me suspect the husband.  He got someone else to find the body.  

[UsernameFatigue]

I have no problem believing that Todd killed Amy. Very early on, as soon as Tristen said that he and his dad had been working in the barn for an hour and a half after Amy left for the shed/house, and that his dad told him to go to the shed to look for his mom, I knew that Todd did it. Why would he think that Amy would still be in the shed an hour and a half after she left the barn? Because he attacked her there, so knew she was there. I also thought when the son said that he never lost sight of his dad that that was quite unlikely, given how big the barn was and that they were each doing their own jobs. 

In addition, Todd said that he told Amy that if she didn't feel up to it not to worry about getting the carrier. So when he didn't see the carrier where he told her to leave it, why would he not just think that she didn't feel up to it and leave it at that? Because not seeing the carrier was an excuse to send his son in to find his dying mother. What a cold POS. 

I also think it is quite possible that Todd gave Amy something to make sure that she felt dizzy, thus adding to his theory that she got dizzy and fell on the rake. They never said whether toxicology tests were done, but presumably Amy was likely on meds for her recent operation. Likely would not have been the hard to ensure that Amy felt dizzy, and have it not raise alarm bells. 

I did not find the fact that Todd did not have blood on him odd at all. He either shoved the rake into Amy's back twice or three times. But he would have done so in quick succession. And on either the second or third time left the rake in her back. But Amy was wearing a jacket, and who knows how many of layers of clothing underneath the jacket. So that material would be getting soaked in blood, so I find it quite likely that Todd would not have blood on him. Who knows how long Amy continued to live and to bleed, which would account for so much blood being there when Tristen finally found her up to an hour and a half later. The show only said that she never regained consciousness, but not when she was officially pronounced dead.

I found Todd to be totally unbelievable in his testimony. When he said he took Amy to the hospital rather than call 911 because "something was wrong" I thought "Ya, you stabbed her in the back with a rake. That's what was wrong". Also his smirk when the friend testified that "you don't mess with Todd" was chilling. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by UsernameFatigue

[TVbitch]

I think Todd did it. He was super controling and furious about her cheating and didn't want to have to split the farm with her. True, the lack of physical evidence gives me a tiny bit of doubt, but probably not reasonable doubt. 

This was a "who else could have done it" case. I don't see how the guy she was cheating with would come over there and kill her while the whole family was home. I would be more likely to believe maybe some random person was in the shed stealing something and she surprised them. BUT there was zero evidence anyone besides the family was ever in the shed. I'm sure they tested the rake and other things for DNA and looked for signs of tire tracks or what not. 

There were no signs of a struggle, so I am guessing Todd had been drugging her and waiting for a moment to kill her in a manner that would look like an accident. That day, he just followed her into the shed and stabbed her a couple times before she realized his intent. He said he pulled the rake out of her to get her out of the door. Any idiot knows you do not pull the object out of a puncture wound. He waited to make sure she had time to die before he sent the son to find her. Tragic. Also, the cat took out both video cameras???

Todd still insists it was an accident. That is the least likely scenario of all, seeing as the rake pierced her at 2 or 3 different angles. 

[UsernameFatigue]

52 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I think Todd did it. He was super controling and furious about her cheating and didn't want to have to split the farm with her. True, the lack of physical evidence gives me a tiny bit of doubt, but probably not reasonable doubt. 

This was a "who else could have done it" case. I don't see how the guy she was cheating with would come over there and kill her while the whole family was home. I would be more likely to believe maybe some random person was in the shed stealing something and she surprised them. BUT there was zero evidence anyone besides the family was ever in the shed. I'm sure they tested the rake and other things for DNA and looked for signs of tire tracks or what not. 

There were no signs of a struggle, so I am guessing Todd had been drugging her and waiting for a moment to kill her in a manner that would look like an accident. That day, he just followed her into the shed and stabbed her a couple times before she realized his intent. He said he pulled the rake out of her to get her out of the door. Any idiot knows you do not pull the object out of a puncture wound. He waited to make sure she had time to die before he sent the son to find her. Tragic. Also, the cat took out both video cameras???

Todd still insists it was an accident. That is the least likely scenario of all, seeing as the rake pierced her at 2 or 3 different angles. 

I thought also by the look of the puncture wounds that the first stab caught Amy by surprise and she turned slightly, as some of the puncture wounds look like they were heading towards her side. 

I was a bit worried when the jurist said that they were having problems coming to a verdict because there was no witness. Ya, murderers generally wait until there is no witness. Sheesh. Thank goodness that common sense prevailed. I bet though that Todd must have been kicking himself that he didn't just stick to one stab of the fork, where the accident theory may have had some weight. My guess is he knew the first stabbing would not be fatal, hence the second and possibly third one. Though personally even if there had only been 4 puncture wounds I would still have been very suspicious. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by UsernameFatigue

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I'm not even saying that Jerry planned it.  What if he just decided to show up and talk to her in the shed, they got into an argument, he picked up the corn rake, and it just happened?  

That could be possible. I still think either Todd or Tristan would've noticed him there at some point, or there would've been some evidence left behind to indicate he was there. Especially if he tried to leave in a hurry to avoid being noticed. I know the farm was big, but Todd managed to hear Tristan calling for him after he discovered the body, so if he could hear that, then I would imagine they would've heard a distant scream if Amy had been attacked, or hear someone else showing up on the property, or something. 

3 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

In addition, Todd said that he told Amy that if she didn't feel up to it not to worry about getting the carrier. So when he didn't see the carrier where he told her to leave it, why would he not just think that she didn't feel up to it and leave it at that? Because not seeing the carrier was an excuse to send his son in to find his dying mother. What a cold POS. 

This. I also found his request for her to go get the carrier strange because if I saw someone having a couple dizzy spells in short succession, I wouldn't bother to ask them to get anything else for me, period. I would escort them inside the house myself to make sure they got in okay, and make sure they were comfortable and resting up. And once I knew they were settled, and if it didn't look like they needed to go to the doctor (though if someone's having constant dizzy spells, I might at least call a doctor just to see if I should bring them in), then I'd go back out and resume my work and get whatever I needed. 

[biakbiak]

16 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

That could be possible. I still think either Todd or Tristan would've noticed him there at some point, or there would've been some evidence left behind to indicate he was there. Especially if he tried to leave in a hurry to avoid being noticed. I know the farm was big, but Todd managed to hear Tristan calling for him after he discovered the body, so if he could hear that, then I would imagine they would've heard a distant scream if Amy had been attacked, or hear someone else showing up on the property, or something. 

And if it wasn’t planned why would he leave his phone home? Going to meet your mistress on a non usual workday at her home where her entire family was present seems extremely unlikely. He also had an alibi witness who probably didn’t miss him for a few hours. 

[MsJamieDornan]

13 hours ago, Ohmo said:

No comments on Todd Mullis?  I'm not sure that I could have convicted him.

I agree.

[CraftyHazel]

I think Todd did it, but I don’t know if I could have convicted him.  There were just so many unanswered questions for me.

[12catcrazy]

To me, this was one of those "Occum's Razor" type of murders.  Who had the motive and the means?  The husband.  He was enraged that she was cheating (again!), was controlling, and her friends said that a) she was finally at the point where she wanted a divorce, b) she was very afraid of her husband - to the point where at least two of the friends said that if she "disappeared", he would be to blame.    

And look at what Todd had to lose if she divorced him: half of the farm, probable custody of his kids, and he'd have to pay her child support and possibly alimony.   AND SHE CHEATED ON HIM!!!  Caps to emphasize what he was probably thinking.  In his mind, she was the bad guy yet she'd be able to take him to the cleaners.   Kill her, make it look like an accident and you have the perfect crime.    Really, who else would have wanted her dead and who would gain from it.   For all we know (not mentioned in the show), he could have even had a nice life insurance policy on her.   I think it boils down to he was a possessive controlling jerk and there was no way this woman was going to get out from him alive.  

[Diana Berry]

2 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

To me, this was one of those "Occum's Razor" type of murders.  Who had the motive and the means?  The husband.  He was enraged that she was cheating (again!), was controlling, and her friends said that a) she was finally at the point where she wanted a divorce, b) she was very afraid of her husband - to the point where at least two of the friends said that if she "disappeared", he would be to blame.    

And look at what Todd had to lose if she divorced him: half of the farm, probable custody of his kids, and he'd have to pay her child support and possibly alimony.   AND SHE CHEATED ON HIM!!!  Caps to emphasize what he was probably thinking.  In his mind, she was the bad guy yet she'd be able to take him to the cleaners.   Kill her, make it look like an accident and you have the perfect crime.    Really, who else would have wanted her dead and who would gain from it.   For all we know (not mentioned in the show), he could have even had a nice life insurance policy on her.   I think it boils down to he was a possessive controlling jerk and there was no way this woman was going to get out from him alive.  

That farm was huge.  Quite an operation.  I guess the family will sell it for the kids?

[Diana Berry]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:31 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

I have no problem believing that Todd killed Amy. Very early on, as soon as Tristen said that he and his dad had been working in the barn for an hour and a half after Amy left for the shed/house, and that his dad told him to go to the shed to look for his mom, I knew that Todd did it. Why would he think that Amy would still be in the shed an hour and a half after she left the barn? Because he attacked her there, so knew she was there. I also thought when the son said that he never lost sight of his dad that that was quite unlikely, given how big the barn was and that they were each doing their own jobs. 

In addition, Todd said that he told Amy that if she didn't feel up to it not to worry about getting the carrier. So when he didn't see the carrier where he told her to leave it, why would he not just think that she didn't feel up to it and leave it at that? Because not seeing the carrier was an excuse to send his son in to find his dying mother. What a cold POS. 

I also think it is quite possible that Todd gave Amy something to make sure that she felt dizzy, thus adding to his theory that she got dizzy and fell on the rake. They never said whether toxicology tests were done, but presumably Amy was likely on meds for her recent operation. Likely would not have been the hard to ensure that Amy felt dizzy, and have it not raise alarm bells. 

I did not find the fact that Todd did not have blood on him odd at all. He either shoved the rake into Amy's back twice or three times. But he would have done so in quick succession. And on either the second or third time left the rake in her back. But Amy was wearing a jacket, and who knows how many of layers of clothing underneath the jacket. So that material would be getting soaked in blood, so I find it quite likely that Todd would not have blood on him. Who knows how long Amy continued to live and to bleed, which would account for so much blood being there when Tristen finally found her up to an hour and a half later. The show only said that she never regained consciousness, but not when she was officially pronounced dead.

I found Todd to be totally unbelievable in his testimony. When he said he took Amy to the hospital rather than call 911 because "something was wrong" I thought "Ya, you stabbed her in the back with a rake. That's what was wrong". Also his smirk when the friend testified that "you don't mess with Todd" was chilling. 

I really hope dateline does their spin on this case.  Very sad.

[Ohmo]

Tonight's episode is supposed to be JJ and Tylee since they were found.  You might wish to remove all accessible objects which can be easily thrown and damage your TVs.

Can we fry her yet?  Him too.

[BusyOctober]

22 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Can we fry her yet?  Him too.

Unfortunate and infuriating as it is, these two pieces of shit may end up doing very short time, or no time at all.  I think their lawyers will pin it all on her dead piece of shit brother.  And since he can’t refute anything, the lawyers can pile on the accusations. Pretty much every bit of evidence could be viewed as coincidental or circumstantial in the eyes of the law.  But everyone knows Vallow and Daybell were behind the entire thing. 

The more upsetting thing to me is that no one raised the alarm early enough to help these kids.  Teachers, family, friends...they are all eager to tell their concerns to 48 Hours, 20/20 and Dateline, but where was the call to action while they were having their suspicions and worries? Tylee and JJ were failed by more than just Lori.  “See something, Say something” indeed.

I feel horrible for JJ’s grandparents, but they should have been screaming for help from local, state police and child welfare authorities sooner.  I know they lived far away, but I would have begged, borrowed or stolen money to get on a plane to confront Lori face to face.

And all of Lori’s “dear friends” and fellow cult members are guilty by association IMO.  Lori starts babbling about how he husband and kids are zombies, and must be eradicated from the Earth, and they’re all, “ hmmm...interesting.  Pass the cookies please, and tell me more how I can be one of God’s Chosen Fucktwads for Eternity!”  One of my first questions would be, “Well, these dark spirits seem to be drawn to you, Lori.  I mean, at least 3 in your own family! Ever think maybe it’s YOU who is dark and evil? Maybe YOU should do the world a favor and kill yourself?”

This episode was about JJ and Tylee, but the whole story is never told on any of these crime shows, even Dateline’s ridiculously repetitive “2 hour” episodes.  We hear bits and pieces about Lori’s stable of dead husbands, her whackadoo family...But there’s no full account.  What about her older son from hubby 1 or 2?  Tylee’s dad?  Chad’s 5 kids?  Her cousin and her husband were involved tangentially if I remember from one of these crime shows...what’s up there? 

 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

And all of Lori’s “dear friends” and fellow cult members are guilty by association IMO.  Lori starts babbling about how he husband and kids are zombies, and must be eradicated from the Earth, and they’re all, “ hmmm...interesting.  Pass the cookies please, and tell me more how I can be one of God’s Chosen Fucktwads for Eternity!”  

I remember there was a "Dateline" episode where the friend was explaining the whole "zombies" thing to Keith Morrison, and the look on his face was priceless. He just had the most perfect "...what the hell?" side-eye going on.

But yeah, it will forever amaze me how people can fall for this kind of insane nonsense. And as I've said in regards to discussions about this story elsewhere, I'm especially mystified at how someone like Chad can rope in so many women and manipulate them so easily. He must have some truly well hidden skills or something, 'cause there's nothing charismatic or attractive or intriguing about him. Course, it's also clear that he and Lori fed off each other...two manipulative souls connecting and bringing out their worst impulses. 

You knew it wasn't going to end well for the kids (initially when I first heard this story, I briefly thought Tylee might've become part of this twisted group of wives, 'cause that tends to happen in cults like this), and that just makes knowing the kind of hell they went through, and how gruesome their end really was, all the more horrifying. I definitely hope they can make sure there's more than enough there to give these two the punishment they deserve. I also wonder, given how high profile this case has become, how difficult it's been trying to find a jury free of that media influence. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Annber03

[MsJamieDornan]

31 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

it will forever amaze me how people can fall for this kind of insane nonsense.

And that's exactly what it is, pathetic insane nonsense.

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

Unfortunate and infuriating as it is, these two pieces of shit may end up doing very short time, or no time at all.  I think their lawyers will pin it all on her dead piece of shit brother.  And since he can’t refute anything, the lawyers can pile on the accusations. Pretty much every bit of evidence could be viewed as coincidental or circumstantial in the eyes of the law.  But everyone knows Vallow and Daybell were behind the entire thing. 

I think the authorities know that and are trying to go about incarcerating Lori and Chad in a different way.  This episode brought up the fact that Chad used to work as a gravedigger, and JJ's grave was completed and he was buried in 17 minutes.  A way to tie Chad to the crime in any way possible.   Or law enforcement investigating both Charles's and Tammy's deaths in order to nail Lori and Chad,  What we need is a jury that will say the right things to get on the jury, sit dutifully through the trial, walk into the jury room, and take about 20 minutes to write guilty on any form that they have in front of them.  Done deal.

3 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

I feel horrible for JJ’s grandparents, but they should have been screaming for help from local, state police and child welfare authorities sooner.  I know they lived far away, but I would have begged, borrowed or stolen money to get on a plane to confront Lori face to face

Agreed.  There was way too much waiting around and trusting Lori.  Not just JJ's grandparents either.

We now know that Tylee was killed first.  Given how protective she was of him, it must have horrified her to have looked on from whatever comes after this life and not be able to protect him.  I felt so badly for her friend and her friend's mom.  They loved those kids more than Lori did.

I also was gratified to hear from the guy who used to do missionary work with Chad.  He actually expressed the horror of this situation so well, I thought.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Ohmo