Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[alexvillage]

I don't know if it was mentioned here before but there is a very good documentary on You Tube - it is from 1990 - about Bob Fosse. Some of the book's references were apparently on what people say in this documentary.

Interesting thing: there is a photo of a very young Bob - maybe from school? And the spelling is "Bobbie". 

I am dying to watch All That Jazz again, anyone knows where I can? Cannot find it anywhere online, there is a very bad quality You Tube video, but nothing else.

And is it possible to watch "Dancin''" anywhere?

Thanks in advance.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1.6 clips

The fan

Nicole's makeup

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E7: Nowadays

Quote

Gwen fights to assert her own creative vision on Chicago, challenging Bob's increasingly dark approach to the musical.

Promo:

Original air date: 5/21/19

[Jordan Baker]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

I am dying to watch All That Jazz again, anyone knows where I can? Cannot find it anywhere online, there is a very bad quality You Tube video, but nothing else.

It's available on DVD from Netflix. Yes, the red envelopes still exist! I have both the DVD and the streaming subscription because so many of the things I want to watch are available only on DVD.

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

It's available on DVD from Netflix. Yes, the red envelopes still exist! I have both the DVD and the streaming subscription because so many of the things I want to watch are available only on DVD.

I had totally forgotten about that! Signed up for it. Thanks for reminding me that DVD rental is a thing - outside libraries!

[12catcrazy]

Kind of speaking of "Dark Approach" - I wonder if this show is going to delve into Fosse's last movie "Star 80"?  

Talk about a harrowing "statement" of a movie! 

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/15/2019 at 9:42 AM, mightysparrow said:

Bob Fosse REALLY worked himself to death. 

I learned recently from a Fosse family member that heart trouble ran deep in the family with many dying at younger ages than Bob.  So maybe his dancing kept him alive longer...

On 5/15/2019 at 5:56 PM, seacliffsal said:

I was bored by this episode.  At first I enjoyed the parallel between Fosse's life and his comedy/Lenny Bruce act but then it just felt like it went on and on and on.  I guess that I'm really here for background on how he/they put the musicals and movies together.  

I felt this way at first, but on rewatch, I appreciated the episode more.  But I am looking forward to what sounds like a more theater-based episode tonight!

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

Kind of speaking of "Dark Approach" - I wonder if this show is going to delve into Fosse's last movie "Star 80"?  

Talk about a harrowing "statement" of a movie! 

That movie always makes me think of the best BF story ever, imo. I heard it on the E!True Hollywood story about him. Eric Roberts, as you probably remember, plays Dorothy Stratton's husband who raped and murdered her. ER was having trouble getting into the character at first and BF was pushing him, very obsessed. (I think he insisted on filming in the actual house where it happened.) ER just wasn't getting a grip on the character, he wasn't really understanding Stratton and he knew it.

So they were doing a scene and ER wasn't doing a good job and he (ER) just said, "Cut!" because he knew he was doing badly. So Fosse of course gets up, furious, because NOBODY says cut on his set except for him. And he marches over to ER and says, "Look at me!" And ER was kind of not wanting to meet his eye because he was sure he was going to get chewed out. So Fosse says, "Look. At. Me." again. 

Finally ER looks him in the face. And if you've seen Star 80 or know the story you'll understand the meaning of this, but Fosse looks him in the eye and says:

"You're playing me. If I wasn't successful."

And that's the performance you'll see in the movie. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by sistermagpie

[mightysparrow]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That movie always makes me think of the best BF story ever, imo. I heard it on the E!True Hollywood story about him. Eric Roberts, as you probably remember, plays Dorothy Stratton's husband who raped and murdered her. ER was having trouble getting into the character at first and BF was pushing him, very obsessed. (I think he insisted on filming in the actual house where it happened.) ER just wasn't getting a grip on the character, he wasn't really understanding Stratton and he knew it.

So they were doing a scene and ER wasn't doing a good job and he (ER) just said, "Cut!" because he knew he was doing badly. So Fosse of course gets up, furious, because NOBODY says cut on his set except for him. And he marches over to ER and says, "Look at me!" And ER was kind of not wanting to meet his eye because he was sure he wasn't going to get chewed out. So Fosse says, "Look. At. Me." again. 

Finally ER looks him in the face. And if you've seen Star 80 or know the story you'll understand the meaning of this, but Fosse looks him in the eye and says:

"You're playing me. If I wasn't successful."

And that's the performance you'll see in the movie. 

It's an amazing movie.  It's a reminder of just how good Eric Roberts really was.   That film was brutally honest about how Dorothy was exploited by every man she came in contact with.  Peter Bogdonovich didn't have enough time to exploit her so he exploited her younger sister instead.

Edited to add:  Dorothy' Stratten's husband was Paul Snider not Stratten.

Edited May 22, 2019 by mightysparrow

[mightysparrow]

Woah.  Way harsh, Gwen.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

Edited to add:  Dorothy' Stratten's husband was Paul Snider not Stratten.

Thank you! I couldn't even remember his first name. I was going to look it up and then I thought you know, he deserves to have his name be the one I can't remember.

[mightysparrow]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Thank you! I couldn't even remember his first name. I was going to look it up and then I thought you know, he deserves to have his name be the one I can't remember.

He was a monster but in a lot of ways he wasn't much different than Hugh Hefner, who just had much more finesse.  Both men made their living from exploiting women and both of them exploited Dorothy.  In fact, I don't think there was anybody in Dorothy's life who didn't treat her like a piece of meat. 

[TexasGal]

So of course I googled Liza in Chicago and found this:

http://www.playbill.com/article/look-back-at-liza-minnelli-in-chicago

The 4th pic is Jerry Orbach as Billy Flynn!  

[LoveLeigh]

Why am I all confused by the final scene in tonight's episode? Did Gwen Verdon have a second child with Bob Fosse? Did they adopt a second child? Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination? 

[mightysparrow]

It's getting harder and harder to know who is worse; Gwen or Bob.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

He was a monster but in a lot of ways he wasn't much different than Hugh Hefner, who just had much more finesse.  Both men made their living from exploiting women and both of them exploited Dorothy.  In fact, I don't think there was anybody in Dorothy's life who didn't treat her like a piece of meat. 

I was so grossed out when I found out Bogdonovich was with the little sister. But yeah, Hugh Hefner basically made a career out of doing that. She barely stood a chance.

Getting back to F/V, I felt so bad for that dance in the show this evening when Bob came to her to get her to buy him drugs. Speaking exploiting people. I was surprised the audience was as patient as it was with Gwen and Bob arguing during the recital. On one hand you'd think as performers they'd have respect, but then, it was just showing that they didn't think this was a real show. Loved when Gwen made a point of telling her boyfriend not to "be mean" by saying things like "next stop, NYC ballet!" to Nicole because she didn't want her to get her hopes up. Bet she never puts those kinds of limits on herself.

1 minute ago, DakotaLavender said:

Why am I all confused by the final scene in tonight's episode? Did Gwen Verdon have a second child with Bob Fosse? Did they adopt a second child? Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination? 

I assumed they were going to adopt and then Gwen got pregnant unexpectedly?

[Popples]

1 minute ago, DakotaLavender said:

Why am I all confused by the final scene in tonight's episode? Did Gwen Verdon have a second child with Bob Fosse? Did they adopt a second child? Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination? 

They didn't say that the adoption must have fallen through. It was mentioned previously that Gwen and Joan were pregnant at the same time.

I really enjoyed this episode, though I'm not too sure on the Jerry Orbach casting.

[bmoore4026]

I've been seriously wondering if they're going to show Chicago losing to A Chorus Line and Gwen losing the Best Actress Tony.

[rur]

8 minutes ago, Popples said:

I really enjoyed this episode, though I'm not too sure on the Jerry Orbach casting.

Here he is as Billy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF0I-9p_yDM

He was the original El Gallo in The Fantasticks, too.

Edited May 22, 2019 by rur

[Popples]

Just now, rur said:

He was the original El Gallo in The Fantasticks, too.

I know, I adored him, I meant the casting of the actor playing Jerry in this episode.

[TimWil]

My mom and I were at the first preview of Chicago in May 1975. I was 14. I remember exactly where we sat-up in the audience left box. I enjoyed it enormously but I was rather creeped out by the occasional sight of some members of the male ensemble being in black high heels, garter belts and stockings. During the intermission there was an announcement-the hydraulic contraption which lifted Chita Rivera from below the set to perform “All That Jazz” was on the fritz. We were given the option of either a full refund or the opportunity to come back at a later date. My mom exchanged the seats for the night of my birthday, which was a few months later in August. Our seats were dead center in the orchestra section. The male ensemble members were no longer in high heels, garter belts and stockings. And Liza Minnelli was in as Roxie. And she was unforgettable. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by TimWil

[Rinaldo]

10 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Why am I all confused by the final scene in tonight's episode? Did Gwen Verdon have a second child with Bob Fosse? Did they adopt a second child? Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination? 

It was clear to me, but it's not a fair comparison, since I already have some familiarity with their biographies. They were planning to adopt, and then Gwen got pregnant after all. (As has happened in many another case of underachieving sperm -- "unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible.")

This episode pretty much stuck to one conflict, plus flashbacks. I would have thought they'd go a little wider, and show us what affected Chicago's chances with the awards. (I'm staying vague, in case they do in fact cover it in the final episode.)

The business about Liza Minnelli taking over as Roxie for 6 weeks is perfectly true. They had no publicity, she didn't appear on the posters (or in the program? not sure about that), and each night before the show, an announcer said "Tonight the role of Roxie Hart will be played by Liza Minnelli."

Edited May 22, 2019 by Rinaldo

[rur]

5 minutes ago, Popples said:

I know, I adored him, I meant the casting of the actor playing Jerry in this episode.

Oops! That's what I get for reading too fast.

[mightysparrow]

I've been siding with Gwen for most of this series but I spent most of this episode thinking 'shut up, Gwen'.  I understand the insecurity she felt playing a much younger woman, but didn't she realize playing 'cute' wasn't going to make her seem younger.  Bob was RIGHT.  These people were murderers.  There's nothing cute about murder. 

We didn't see what happened but I hope Bob told her to take her dime and make the fucking call.

[Rinaldo]

1 minute ago, mightysparrow said:

Bob was RIGHT.

He was right, but she was right too. Nobody's going to show up if you incessantly alienate your audience. (Of course "alienating your audience" is a moving target; when the revival hit Broadway, the material and manner had become more palatable because everyone had seen it become almost normal in real life.) Chicago was a hit in its original run, but not a monster hit (another musical from its season took that role); and its national tour nearly closed on the road until they hastily plugged Verdon and Rivera into their original roles for some name value.

By the way, the characterization we saw of Chita Rivera seems very true to everything I've heard about her (granted that she's still alive, it still matches all the stories): dedicated to the work, no pushover but always amenable to direction, and always supportive of her fellow cast members. She knew she was there partly to take some of the physical burden off Gwen, but she still wasn't going to rob her of her final song.

[memememe76]

I am a bit confused by the episode. From previous posts, I thought Chicago was going to be a big revival for Gwen, but she seems worse off than ever. Was Chicago not as successful as I thought, or was the seeming lack of success just Gwen being insecure?

If I never heard of Chicago ever in my life, I don't think I would understand what the show is about.

Chita seems like a real sweetheart.

[lucindabelle]

Gwen is coming across as a little histrionic. 

Not that she has no cause but it’s tedious to watch.

[Door County Cherry]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Getting back to F/V, I felt so bad for that dance in the show this evening when Bob came to her to get her to buy him drugs.

Oooh that scene was 100% why I do not think Gwen is anywhere near as close to "as bad" as Bob.  He went to her to double check on what Gwen was telling him, catching her in her nightgown.  After she told him, she let him know that she was scared of being fired.  Using that vulnerability, he asked her to get him drugs.  And if that weren't enough, he then asked her if she wanted to a nightcap.  

I loved the little look down the camera showed as she knew exactly what he was really asking for and then they cut away.  Such a quietly devastating moment. 

I'm really glad that this show decided to focus on Verdon as well as Fosse because I think Gwen is an incredible character for Michelle Williams.  She gets such a range to play with Gwen's strength, pettiness, insecurity, talent, caring, manipulative, supportive....etc.  I saw one critique of the show that it's just another show with a put upon wife but I couldn't disagree more.  While that factor was certainly there in the beginning, the more we saw of Gwen's different sides, the better the show has gotten.  I'm impressed that they are showing her drive and ambition.  It's the kind of quality that is often celebrated in the male "genius" but is considered less attractive on women. 

32 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

We didn't see what happened but I hope Bob told her to take her dime and make the fucking call.

It was probably something less dramatic in that I took Gwen's outburst as an extension of her fatigue.  

Quote

From previous posts, I thought Chicago was going to be a big revival for Gwen, but she seems worse off than ever. Was Chicago not as successful as I thought, or was the seeming lack of success just Gwen being insecure?

Gwen was older so she was struggling a bit in rehearsals. She was well liked as the lead in the show but a few weeks in, she ended up inhaling some confetti and hurt her voice, which was mentioned in the show.  She had to step out and was replaced by Liza.  So that's why she was seen as struggling.  It probably wasn't the success for her personally that she wanted to be but, if they still have the rights, Nicole likely did benefit from its legacy. 

[LoveLeigh]

57 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

It was clear to me, but it's not a fair comparison, since I already have some familiarity with their biographies. They were planning to adopt, and then Gwen got pregnant after all. (As has happened in many another case of underachieving sperm -- "unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible.")

But who was that baby at the end? Was that a flashback? Gwen Verdon and Bob Fosse only had one child together: Nicole. 

[lavenderblue]

4 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

But who was that baby at the end? Was that a flashback? Gwen Verdon and Bob Fosse only had one child together: Nicole. 

Yes. It was the conclusion of the flashbacks throughout the episode showing Gwen and Bob's journey to parenthood. The friend was Joan Simon.

[memememe76]

That was Nicole. I am assuming her middle name is Providence. 

[nilyank]

The girl playing Nicole has the most unfortunate wig/dye colored hair.

[voiceover]

Once again, Paddy C providing comic relief from the strain that flowed off Bob & Gwen in waves.  The whole convo of "If you die first..." was true-to-life: Paddy swore he'd bore the audience for hours and not tell a single joke; Bob countered that if *Paddy died first, he'd tapdance at the funeral.  

Spoiler

Paddy died first, and Bob was as good as his word.

Gwen was fifty when rehearsals started.  Jesus!  That's my age box ("Check here:") Salute to her for fighting through what had to be terrible pain and bone-deep exhaustion.  

When she turned around and let. Him. Have it!  I felt the built-up bile of all those years; all that ugly unacknowledged truth, never spoken, long suspected.  No one has the power to hurt like the people who've loved you best, and longest.  Yeeesh.

Celeb alert: Mrs Neil Simon, now Marsha Mason, at the opening night party for Chicago.  She declares the show (& Gwen) are shoo-ins for the Tonys.  Alas.

Weird aside: Bob & Gwen bickering during Nicole's performance put me in mind of an early ep of Friends, when Rachel tells the story of her newly-divorcing parents arguing so loudly during her sister's college graduation that "[commencement speaker] Bishop Tutu had to shush them!!"

Edited May 22, 2019 by voiceover
Spoilers

[GaT]

I don't understand why Gwen had to undergo all the procedures to get pregnant when it was Bob's sperm that was the problem.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Bob: Those doctors, they fucked me up. They took away all my prescriptions.
Paddy: Yeah? I say God bless 'em.

Bob: Don't tell anyone we talked about this.
Danny: The drugs or the song?

Bob: Do me a favor. I can't work without the dexedrine. Go to your doctor, tell him you're fatigued, you want to lose some weight. Paddy, it's like coffee for me. It's not a big deal.
Paddy: I'm not going to score drugs for you, Bob.
Bob: It's not scoring drugs. My cardiologist just doesn't-
Paddy: Shut up! You listen to me. If you want to kill yourself, there's not a damn thing I can do about it but I'm not going to be the one that put the bullets in the chamber.
Bob: That's a little dramatic.
Paddy: Well, I'm a dramatist. And you're a lunatic.
[Bob lights a cigarette]
Paddy: What are you doing? You're not supposed to smoke!
Bob: It's got a filter! What are you doing? What's the matter with you? Are you kidding me?
Paddy: I swear to God. I swear, if you die, I'm going to show up at your funeral and I'm going to deliver the worst fucking eulogy in the history of eulogies. On my mother, it's not funny. Not one witty remark. I'm going to keep them there for three, four hours. Not one humorous anecdote.
Bob: If you die, if you go first, I'm not going to say a word at your funeral. I'm just going to do a tap dance.
Paddy: That sounds pretty nice.

Ron: Next stop, New York City Ballet!
Gwen: Please don't say things like that to [Nicole]. It isn't nice.

Bob: People don't like me, do they?
Lori: What are you talking about? Everyone worships you.
Bob: They don't think I'm a nice guy.
Lori: You're the nicest choreographer in the business. You don't call names. You don't raise your voice.
Bob: That's not a very high bar, is it?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Why am I all confused by the final scene in tonight's episode? Did Gwen Verdon have a second child with Bob Fosse? Did they adopt a second child? Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination? 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I assumed they were going to adopt and then Gwen got pregnant unexpectedly?

6 hours ago, Popples said:

They didn't say that the adoption must have fallen through. It was mentioned previously that Gwen and Joan were pregnant at the same time.

6 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

It was clear to me, but it's not a fair comparison, since I already have some familiarity with their biographies. They were planning to adopt, and then Gwen got pregnant after all. (As has happened in many another case of underachieving sperm -- "unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible.")

5 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

But who was that baby at the end? Was that a flashback? Gwen Verdon and Bob Fosse only had one child together: Nicole. 

The scene at the end was a flashback of Gwen and Joan just after their daughters (Nicole and Nancy, respectively) were born in 1963.

Gwen and Bob were going to adopt the baby who was due to be born in Rochester in June and a few months later, Gwen found out she was pregnant so they ended up not adopting.* Nicole was Gwen and Bob's only child together.

Earlier in the episode, the fertility specialist mentioned Gwen already having a child (mistakenly assuming that it was Bob's). That was Jimmy, the baby she had when she was 17 with the asshole family friend we saw in a previous episode.

* This definitely happens in real life. My coworker and his wife couldn't get pregnant so they saw a fertility specialist who said it was extremely unlikely they would ever conceive. They adopted a baby and then a few months later, the wife got pregnant.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'd really like someone to demonstrate how to take the choreography Bob gave the cast and then dance it like a murderer or a liar.

For the record, I was the lady sitting behind Bob and Gwen at Nicole's performance. SHUT UP! Whatever problems you have, don't discuss them during the show. You can talk about it before the show or after the show, just NOT DURING THE SHOW! If you're not interested enough in watching your daughter perform, then get up and leave but for crying out loud, let everyone else watch without your squawking.

And poor Ron, trying to politely tell them to pay attention to Nicole's dancing.

I loved that Paddy refused to be Bob's enabler and fetch drugs for him. I also give a lot of credit to the guy we saw in rehearsal who refused to get drugs for Bob too. As much as I love Paddy, he was in no danger by saying no to Bob. The guy we saw in rehearsal worked for Bob, so he knew he was taking a chance by saying no to him.

That poor dancer in Chicago. Bob really decided to kill several birds with one stone and make her a one stop shop: verify the rumors Gwen had mentioned, get her to stroke his ego, convince her to procure drugs for him, and then hit on her.

[Spartan Girl]

Even though Bob was right about "Nowawdays" working better as a duet, Gwen's rant was spectacular and he had it coming for a looooooooong time. I did hate both of them for bickering during Nicole's recital though.

I kind of wish we got to hear Michelle sing "Roxie."

[Rinaldo]

4 hours ago, GaT said:

I don't understand why Gwen had to undergo all the procedures to get pregnant when it was Bob's sperm that was the problem.

Fertility doctors, as I understand it, will go for whatever helps. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, or its state of knowledge in the early 1960s, but my impression is that, whatever could be done about a man's sperm motility, female anatomy could be treated for greater receptivity (in metaphorical terms: more likely to grab hold of whatever sperm came along).

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I also give a lot of credit to the guy we saw in rehearsal who refused to get drugs for Bob too. As much as I love Paddy, he was in no danger by saying no to Bob. The guy we saw in rehearsal worked for Bob, so he knew he was taking a chance by saying no to him.

That guy was John Kander, the composer of Chicago. He was still taking a chance (of being the object of hostility etc.) by refusing, but he wasn't "working for" Bob in the sense that the dancers were.

8 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I am a bit confused by the episode. From previous posts, I thought Chicago was going to be a big revival for Gwen, but she seems worse off than ever. Was Chicago not as successful as I thought, or was the seeming lack of success just Gwen being insecure?

The commercial history of Chicago is a complicated one: It did get mixed reviews, some highly favorable, but the all-important Times was uncomprehending -- basically the Times critic throughout the 1970s was inadequate to ambitious musicals (he never gave a Sondheim show an understanding review either). Liza Minnelli did give it a boost by subbing in for Gwen and getting the show re-reviewed, but the boost continued long after she left and it had a decent two-year run. I'm sure the next episode will continue with the story of its original run, so I'll say no more.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'd really like someone to demonstrate how to take the choreography Bob gave the cast and then dance it like a murderer or a liar.

That demonstration would be Bob's choreography in the original Chicago, but Ann Reinking's approximation in the still-running revival is a reasonable substitute. It can be done.

By the way, in terms of the new song "Nowadays," what we ultimately see is misleading though accurate: it did remain a solo for Gwen/Roxie, followed by the announcer's "not one little lady, but two!" and then the last half of the song, sung by both of them. So it wasn't exactly Bob getting what he wanted, but a compromise solution.

I agree that the new casting of Nicole Fosse is inexplicably dreadful. Was her dancing in the recital sequence considered the only important factor in choosing an actress? She looks older than her parents.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Rinaldo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

That guy was John Kander, the composer of Chicago. He was still taking a chance (of being the object of hostility etc.) by refusing, but he wasn't "working for" Bob in the sense that the dancers were.

Ha, for some reason, I though it was the guy listed in the credits as Danny so I assumed he was some kind of assistant. So yeah, John Kander had a lot less to lose than that poor dancer later.

13 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

I agree that the new casting of Nicole Fosse is inexplicably dreadful. Was her dancing in the recital sequence considered the only important factor in choosing an actress? She looks older than her parents.

Especially since we saw barely any of her dancing due to Gwen and Bob fighting during her performance! Nicole is only 12 years old in 1975. Although she's relatively short, I felt the actress looked way older than 12. Considering that she's barely spoken a word since they aged her up, couldn't they have just hired an actress who looks 12 and then used a body double for the dance scene? They should have kept the younger actress who they still had in the beach weekend episode.

ETA: Ha, I just checked IMDB and learned that the current/older actress playing Nicole in this episode is 26. No wonder I thought she looked too old to play a 12 year old!

Edited May 22, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Jordan Baker]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Paddy: Shut up! You listen to me. If you want to kill yourself, there's not a damn thing I can do about it but I'm not going to be the one that put the bullets in the chamber.
Bob: That's a little dramatic.
Paddy: Well, I'm a dramatist. And you're a lunatic.

I loved this exchange. Once again, Norbert Leo Butz was just great as Paddy.

I didn't realize that Danny Burstein was in the cast until I saw it mentioned on Twitter. (He played the OB/GYN who gushed over Gwen Verdon but didn't know who Bob Fosse was.) What an embarrassment of riches this cast is. I saw Burstein twice on Broadway.  He absolutely stole the show in the revival of "South Pacific" and was also great in "Follies."

I did enjoy the small bit of dancing we saw from Sam Rockwell this episode. It seemed much more Fosse-like than what he did in an earlier episode.

[Jordan Baker]

40 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

The commercial history of Chicago is a complicated one: It did get mixed reviews, some highly favorable, but the all-important Times was uncomprehending -- basically the Times critic throughout the 1970s was inadequate to ambitious musicals (he never gave a Sondheim show an understanding review either).

I have to admit that Chicago is not my favorite show. I saw what I assume was the first national tour of it, back in '76 or so. I do like some of the music. 

Now,  that other show that you mentioned, which I also saw on tour (twice) at around the same time, hit me like a ton of bricks. Loved it.

Wait. The Times critic never gave a Sondheim show an understanding review?? That's crazy talk!!

[teddysmom]

11 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Was that scene of her with a baby and her friend with a baby all in Gwen's imagination

That was Nicole.

All the trying to have a baby stuff was flash back to when they first were married.  Michelle/Gwen was introducing the various segments with songs from Chicago. 

[teddysmom]

2 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I'd really like someone to demonstrate how to take the choreography Bob gave the cast and then dance it like a murderer or a liar.

This is Catherine ZJ doing that number in the movie. It's not so upbeat, more down and dirty. 

Update: I didn't realize the dialogue from scene is in Spanish but the song is in English. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utdFcen26FI

Edited May 22, 2019 by teddysmom

[Rinaldo]

I like Catherine Zeta-Jones as Velma (and the movie in general, very much), but it should be noted that  the treatment is thoroughly de-Fosse-ized -- his dance language has been replaced by Rob Marshall's. That's not a complaint; such an evolution always happens eventually with stage choreography. But for evidence of how it looked onstage (even at one remove, in Ann Reinking's choreography "in the style of Bob Fosse"), one has to look around for a televised rendition featuring Bebe Neuwirth, Velma in the revival. They did it on the Letterman Show and on the second Clinton inaugural gala, and while it lasts on YouTube, here's someone's bootleg.

There was a bit of dramatic license about Ann's "current" show. She had been playing Joan of Arc in the musical Goodtime Charley (which has a good score, I recommend the cast recording), but it wasn't still rehearsing while all the business with Chicago was happening -- it had closed in May. A reasonable bit of fudging, I think. As for which Neil Simon play "Ron" was in... as he's fictional, I'm not going to worry about that.

2 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

Wait. The Times critic never gave a Sondheim show an understanding review?? That's crazy talk!!

Given the uncertainty of online tone, I'm not sure if this is sarcastic, or genuine surprise (either would be amply warranted). But in case anyone doesn't know: Even in the 1970s, when there were more NYC newspapers than there are now, the Times mattered vastly more than any of the others -- if you otherwise had raves but Clive Barnes didn't like you, you were sunk (at least until you'd managed to run a few months and other reactions, including word of mouth, started to carry some weight). And he was relentlessly tone-deaf to new things that were happening in musical theater, not just Sondheim. It was a tough period for ambitious new musicals to gain an audience; several that are now classics had modest initial runs that didn't turn a profit.

[alexvillage]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

The commercial history of Chicago is a complicated one: It did get mixed reviews, some highly favorable, but the all-important Times was uncomprehending -- basically the Times critic throughout the 1970s was inadequate to ambitious musicals (he never gave a Sondheim show an understanding review either). Liza Minnelli did give it a boost by subbing in for Gwen and getting the show re-reviewed, but the boost continued long after she left and it had a decent two-year run. I'm sure the next episode will continue with the story of its original run, so I'll say no more.

Yes, they got it right not making a big fuzz when Liza came in. I will speculate that the reason why Chicago didn't have a big start and better reviews was, in part, due to the success of A Chorus Line, that premiered just a week (or something lose to that) before and people went bananas about it. I guess two big names are supposed to surpass each other and the critics expected more from Fosse than they saw? 

[Jordan Baker]

7 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

Given the uncertainty of online tone, I'm not sure if this is sarcastic, or genuine surprise (either would be amply warranted). But in case anyone doesn't know: Even in the 1970s, when there were more NYC newspapers than there are now, the Times mattered vastly more than any of the others -- if you otherwise had raves but Clive Barnes didn't like you, you were sunk (at least until you'd managed to run a few months and other reactions, including word of mouth, started to carry some weight). And he was relentlessly tone-deaf to new things that were happening in musical theater, not just Sondheim. It was a tough period for ambitious new musicals to gain an audience; several that are now classics had modest initial runs that didn't turn a profit.

That was genuine surprise. I knew that the Times critic was, well, critical to the success of a show, but I didn't realize that Clive Barnes wasn't all in on Sondheim. (I'm completely biased though. For me, Sondheim can do no wrong.) Now I'm curious to read some more of his reviews.  Thanks!

I wish this production team would do another behind-the-scenes story of the '70s Broadway era. I can't believe this show has only one more episode. 

[mightysparrow]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Gwen is coming across as a little histrionic. 

Not that she has no cause but it’s tedious to watch.

And breathtakingly unprofessional.  Which makes it so hard to watch because I find it hard to believe that THE Gwen Verdon would ever go off like that in a rehearsal, no matter how many chorus girls Bob has fucked.

In the theatre, the director's word is law.  Gwen might not have liked Bob's direction but to publicly go against him like that just seemed so hard to believe.  I guess it helps that they're among friends, the creative team of the show.  If Gwen had done something like that in front of the rest of the cast, she'd get written up by Equity, big star or not.

Aging sucks for women in the performing arts.  No matter how good you look and how well you can STILL do your job, there's always someone out there counting the wrinkles and the extension of your leg.  It's different for men.

The new Nicole is dreadful.  My understanding is that Nicole Fosse is a professional dancer, so I don't understand why they cast such an ungraceful young woman to play her.  It was hard to watch that recital .

I think asking that poor young woman to get drugs for him is one of the worst things we've seen Bob do.  She thought that gave her a special bond with Bob so it was painful to watch her hurt when he blew her off backstage, even though a director isn't supposed to give notes to performers once the play opens.  That's the stage manager's job.  But she thought that Bob was her friend, not just some guy who took advantage of her.

[JeanneH]

11 hours ago, voiceover said:

Celeb alert: Mrs Neil Simon, now Marsha Mason, at the opening night party for Chicago.  She declares the show (& Gwen) are shoo-ins for the Tonys.  Alas.

Marsha Mason apparently had a small hand in the success of A Chorus Line.  In Every Little Step, the documentary about casting the 2006 revival of ACL, Marvin Hamlisch (wrote music) tells a story that when the original version of the show was in previews they were having problems with the audience reaction. Things were fine throughout but when it got to the end the reaction was flat and the audience seemed a bit angry. Neil and Marsha attended one of the previews, and afterward someone (Bennett?) told them about the problem. Marsha said that she thought it was because after all she'd been put through, Cassie (Donna McKechnie) didn't get a job - the audience was a bit upset about that. So the ending was changed (solely on Marsha's input? who knows), a smash was born, and Chicago's Tony hopes were doomed for that year.

This little tidbit is also in the Wikipedia entry about ACL, but I first heard it in the documentary.

Edited May 22, 2019 by JeanneH

[rur]

49 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

The new Nicole is dreadful.  My understanding is that Nicole Fosse is a professional dancer, so I don't understand why they cast such an ungraceful young woman to play her.  It was hard to watch that recital .

She wasn't dancing too badly at the beginning, but I got the impression that she was supposed to be getting worse as they went on because she was so distracted by her parents arguing in the audience. There were several shots of her looking into the audience instead of focusing on the onstage action.

Edited May 22, 2019 by rur