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John Diggle: Brother In Arms

Lisin

By Lisin
in Characters of Arrow

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Morrigan2575
Morrigan2575

He removed himself from the field in 301; then in 302 he's back on the team and in 303 he's in the Field.  Diggle was in the field several times between 302-310, including 303, 305, 308 and 310 but wa

tv echo
tv echo

Here is my Diggle rant - Even though Diggle had a few good scenes in Episodes 310 through 312, for the most part he has been shamefully treated by the EPs.  We previously discussed the incongruity of

quarks
quarks

Felicity isn't taking screentime or focus away from Diggle. She's taking screentime and focus away from Laurel.  This is because Felicity isn't taking over Diggle's role as mentor/fighting partner. Sh

wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Like I said before, hopefully Diggle gets an expanded role in season 3. Just because we didn't see Oliver/Digg interact as much in season 2, doesn't mean that his role in Oliver's life is diminished. Diggle is and always will remain to be one of the most important people in Oliver's life. Oliver trusts Digg, he is honest with him, he looks up to him in a way he doesn't with other people. 

 

And again, like I said before, season 1 was Digg's year of solidifying his relationship with Oliver, season 2 was Felicity's year. They both got equal amounts of time with Oliver so I don't really see the issue. Regardless of this though, Felicity isn't solely the one to be blamed. There was so much going on in season 2 which was one of its issues. The writers took on too much and so some things like Digg/Oliver interactions declined. 

 

To blame this on Felicity is just a baseless accusation that leads to nowhere but bitterness town. 

Edited by wonderwall
wingster55

wingster55

Felicity had her moments in s1 as well...sure she didn't know him as well but she had time with him.

Not sure why it needs to be one or the other like it was s2.

 

To blame this on Felicity is just a baseless accusation that leads to nowhere but bitterness town.

 

She may not deserve all the blame as I've been giving (in fact I'm sure she doesn't)...but I don't think it's baseless at all.

dtissagirl

dtissagirl

(edited)

Well, Diggle is gonna have a kid in S3, I'm thinking his bro time with Oliver has been compromised pretty much forever. Oliver is never gonna be Diggle's #1 priority ever again.

 

Plus, they did spend time in S2 developing Diggle's relationship with Felicity, which was something necessary since Dig/Oliver had already been dealt with in S1. People overlook that a lot, because, again, minimizing Felicity is the easy way out.

 

I dunno, for me it's super weird to want Oliver and Diggle to spend all their time alone together when they're canonically two heterosexual dudes who do not wanna jump each other, who have women they're romantically interested in, and families that demand their attention. I only wish they'd jump each other, but unfortunately for me, it's not the show we're watching.

Edited by dancingnancy
  • Love 2
wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

She may not deserve all the blame as I've been giving (in fact I'm sure she doesn't)...but I don't think it's baseless at all.

I think that it is baseless because there are too many variables that could've affected Diggles reduced role.

  • David Ramsey doing Blue Bloods at the same time (this is a HUGE one) in different cities
  • Expanded role of Sara
  • Building up Slade as a villain (which they did poorly)
  • Laurel's alcoholism/ emotional spiral/sussing out Blood/ healing time
  • Oliver's life with his family/ mama drama
  • Felicity's expanded role in season 2A

 

And there's a lot more that went on that season. So to blame Felicity when Team Arrow time as a whole declined in season 2B is unfair. 

 

Felicity had her moments in s1 as well...sure she didn't know him as well but she had time with him.

Not sure why it needs to be one or the other like it was s2.

Yeah, Felicity had her moments in season 1 just as Diggle has had his moments in season 2. So I don't get your point? And I didn't say it has to be one way or the other, I'm just saying that it just turned out that way. And like I said, there's no point in pointing your finger at certain characters and blaming them because that achieves nothing. Hopefully the writers have a better balance between Team Arrow this year. 

Edited by wonderwall
wingster55

wingster55

I think that it is baseless because there are too many variables that could've affected Diggles reduced role.

    David Ramsey doing Blue Bloods at the same time (this is a HUGE one) in different cities

    Expanded role of Sara

    Building up Slade as a villain (which they did poorly)

    Laurel's alcoholism/ emotional spiral/sussing out Blood/ healing time

    Oliver's life with his family/ mama drama

    Felicity's expanded role in season 2A

 

1. Blue Bloods - Fair

2. Sara - fair but her screentime was an extension of Oliver

3. Laurel also had her plot lines in s1

4. Oliver had mama drama in s1 as well.

5. Our debate

So 3 and 4 imo aren't variables as both existed in s1.

 

Yeah, Felicity had her moments in season 1 just as Diggle has had his moments in season 2

 

Did he? I can think of very few.

ban1o

ban1o

(edited)

I kinda agree with Wingster. Diggle's role in season 2 decreased a lot, especially in the 2nd half and a lot of the team interaction was just Felicity and Oliver. 

 

Also he's been on Blue Bloods for the duration of Arrow's run and it was only in season 2 where is role decreased, so I don't think that excuse works. He was only in 2 episodes during all of Arrow season 2. and that was in the first half. 

 

Anyway I'm looking forward to his storylines this season. 

Edited by ban1o
wonderwall

wonderwall

1. Blue Bloods - Fair

2. Sara - fair but her screentime was an extension of Oliver

3. Laurel also had her plot lines in s1

4. Oliver had mama drama in s1 as well.

5. Our debate

So 3 and 4 imo aren't variables as both existed in s1.

Yeah, but season 1 didn't have as much going on as season 2. I was trying to make a point that S2 suffered only because they took on too much too fast therefore characters as well as arcs suffered. 

  • Laurel's arc suffered  because a lack of attention and focus
  • Sara's arc suffered because she just got back on that boat all smiley regardless of how she felt about LoA before. 
  • Diggle suffered because he wasn't on screen as much
  • Felicity suffered because she became a one-liner hit wonder in season 2B
  • Slade's motivation suffered because they didn't take the time to develop his feelings properly
  • Thea's arc suffered because they didn't spend time behind why she was so angry at everyone (it made her look childish as some would say). 
  • Roy's arc was rushed and therefore suffered
  • Oliver/Sara's relationship came and went by like a hurricane, which didn't really add any depth or reason to their relationship 
  • One minute Laurel/Sara was intense, the next minute all their issues were resolved and they're besties now? 

 

Everyone suffered, including relationships. Diggle is no exception. And Felicity isn't to blame. If they ddin't take on as much, Diggle could've had a larger role without the expense of deepening Felicity's relationship with Oliver which was all in order to make their finale all the more believable. 

  • Love 2
wingster55

wingster55

(edited)

I guess that's fair (though I disagree with your opinions of the story lines...but another day)

 

This is the most useless argument ever, considering we'll never have the information required to argue from a fact-based perspective.

 

I'm quite known for that

 

Honestly, it's quite childish.

 

Also that.

Edited by wingster55
statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

This isn't a comic book where relationships can stay static, it's a TV show and by the nature of the medium, things have to change.  It couldn't remain Oliver and Diggle as a buddy movie twosome fighting crime like Strike Back.

 

Diggle's role in Oliver's life being diminished was inevitable as Oliver grew emotionally healthier.  At the beginning of the series, Oliver was a stone cold killer and while Diggle signed on for The List, he also signed on to make sure that Oliver stayed sane because being a soldier chips little bits off of you.  As Oliver got healthier, he didn't need Diggle to do that for him as much any more. And as Oliver reached out to more people to help him (Felicity, Sara, Roy, Quentin and now Laurel) his reliance of Diggle grew less. 

 

Felicity was on the show from 1x03 and joined the foundry team in 1x14. What was different about s2 was the Slade arc and the addition of Sara plus Laurel addiction stuff.  Season 1 was The List and Diggle had a big role to play in Oliver's journey through that and occasionally with Felicity (the Big Belly Burger delivery in 1x22 is hilarious). 

 

Season 2 was about Slade and the Lances and there was no room for Diggle there other than to warn Oliver off of Laurel.  The writers tried to balance that with two episodes pretty much devoted to Diggle, his backstory and his dealings with ARGUS.

 

Wy not blame Sara for joining the Team and being the one to go on missions with Oliver while Diggle stayed behind with Felicity?

 

Unless someone wants to do an analysis comparing season 1 and 2 of scenes Diggle was in and what lines he spoke, I don't see how we'll ever have data on this.

Edited by statsgirl
  • Love 3
Password

Password

To be fair, Oliver and Felicity needed more screen time if they were going to sell as a couple. Otherwise it would just be "huh huh huh?" And from all the spoilers, and the finale, it's clear to see the EPs were going down that route in 2A. They were building trust and loyalty and friendship between them that didn't have to do with Diggle because this is not a threesome.

 

Diggle needs to be present in the foundry. His presence, silent or otherwise always adds to the show and it's often what he doesn't say - thanks to David Ramsey - that's so effective. If anything I'm rather more worried what Roy's presence on the team will do to Diggle's screen time.

  • Love 4
JenMcSnark

JenMcSnark

(edited)

1. Blue Bloods - Fair

2. Sara - fair but her screentime was an extension of Oliver

3. Laurel also had her plot lines in s1

4. Oliver had mama drama in s1 as well.

5. Our debate

So 3 and 4 imo aren't variables as both existed in s1.

 

Did he? I can think of very few.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the bolded.  Sarah's story is an extension of Oliver's, sure.  But so is everyone's.  This show is about Oliver.  It is about his journey and the relationships around that journey and how they influence him.

 

IMO saying Digg lost screen time because Felicity is worse than Digg lost screen time because Sarah but that's okay cuz that was really about Oliver is a little bit ridiculous.  

 

edit: hopefully that makes a modicum of sense.  haha

Edited by JenMcSnark
  • Love 5
statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

1. Blue Bloods - Fair

2. Sara - fair but her screentime was an extension of Oliver

3. Laurel also had her plot lines in s1

4. Oliver had mama drama in s1 as well.

5. Our debate

So 3 and 4 imo aren't variables as both existed in s1.

I think Felicity's screentime was more an extension of Oliver than Sara's was.  Independent of Oliver Sara had Ivo, Sin, Nyssa, when the LoA came for her and all the Lance Family Drama.  Independent of Oliver, Felicity's screentime was .... nothing.  Even the Barry story was about Oliver and how he reacted to Barry being around.

 

Laurel's plot lines in s1 were entirely Oliver-related. In season 2, she had the addiction arc and Sara's return, which were independent of Oliver, and most of her interactions with Sebastian Blood was too.

 

Oliver's mama drama in s1 was about whether Oliver would take his place at QC, Walter's kidnapping and the Undertaking.  In s2 she was running for mayor, which had nothing to do with Oliver until the very end when Slade killed her.

 

Next season, Roy joins the Team full strength and will probably be the one accompanying Oliver on his vigilante trips because Oliver will be mentoring him, continuing on from s2, while Diggle stays behind.  Will that be okay, or will it be a problem that Roy will be responsible for cutting down Diggle's screen time?  In other words, is this about Diggle the character, or about the Guys Fighting Team?

Edited by statsgirl
  • Love 1
willpwr

willpwr

I think everything should basically be an extension of Oliver, he's the reason for the show. All of his relationships are important, if anything didn't add to his story, to his journey it was the Lance family drama because that set him back and just made him look like an ass. Diggle wasn't really much of a talker in S1 or S2 but that man doesn't need to talk to get his point across and make his presence known. I don't feel that Diggle's screen time was really minimized in comparison to S1, yes, I would have loved to have him on screen more but like he said, he and Oliver aren't really talkers. Diggle started the "you are not alone speech" as well as the "find another way" speech but Felicity finished those speeches for him because the two of them seem to realize that sometimes both of them have to say something to get the point across to Oliver and Felicity is more of a talker. It doesn't make Diggle less important to the team. 

  • Love 1
quarks

quarks

Felicity isn't taking screentime or focus away from Diggle. She's taking screentime and focus away from Laurel.  This is because Felicity isn't taking over Diggle's role as mentor/fighting partner. She's taking over Laurel's role as love interest - something that started happening in episode 9 of the first season, and was solidified in episode 14 of the first season, when she found out about Oliver's secret identity before Laurel did - something that in comics usually happens with the love interest. After that, the screentime originally spent on Oliver/Laurel scenes (which didn't include Diggle) shifted to Oliver/Felicity or (more rarely) to Oliver/Sara scenes instead.

 

Diggle's screentime and focus started to go down after two characters entered the Arrow Cave who did take away his role as fighting partner/mentor: Sara as fighting partner, Roy not so much as mentor, but forcing Oliver into Diggle's role as mentor, and now, Roy apparently taking the role of Oliver's fighting partner by putting on a mask.

 

On a more positive note, Diggle at least did get his own storyline.  I'll be honest: I am a little concerned that, with Roy getting the costume/superhero name, we're not going to get as much of Diggle in the third season. I'm really, really hoping the show proves me wrong here, because if there's one universal truth about Arrow, it's this: this show needs more Diggle :)

 

(I know, I should probably put "in my opinion" on the last sentence, but in my opinion, it's a fact :) )

  • Love 12
TanyaKay

TanyaKay

Felicity isn't taking screentime or focus away from Diggle. She's taking screentime and focus away from Laurel.  This is because Felicity isn't taking over Diggle's role as mentor/fighting partner. She's taking over Laurel's role as love interest - something that started happening in episode 9 of the first season, and was solidified in episode 14 of the first season, when she found out about Oliver's secret identity before Laurel did - something that in comics usually happens with the love interest. After that, the screentime originally spent on Oliver/Laurel scenes (which didn't include Diggle) shifted to Oliver/Felicity or (more rarely) to Oliver/Sara scenes instead.

 

Diggle's screentime and focus started to go down after two characters entered the Arrow Cave who did take away his role as fighting partner/mentor: Sara as fighting partner, Roy not so much as mentor, but forcing Oliver into Diggle's role as mentor, and now, Roy apparently taking the role of Oliver's fighting partner by putting on a mask.

 

On a more positive note, Diggle at least did get his own storyline.  I'll be honest: I am a little concerned that, with Roy getting the costume/superhero name, we're not going to get as much of Diggle in the third season. I'm really, really hoping the show proves me wrong here, because if there's one universal truth about Arrow, it's this: this show needs more Diggle :)

 

(I know, I should probably put "in my opinion" on the last sentence, but in my opinion, it's a fact :) )

 

I don't know if you watch The Good Wife but that 'in my opinion' reminded me of the judge who wanted all her lawyers to preface every argument with 'in my opinion'.

 

PS: solid argument, Felicity replaced Laurel and we couldn't be happier about it.

Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

(edited)

Because I'm trying to focus on the positive, and here's a huge positive.

 

Love, thy name is Diggle. The look of absolute love and adoration he had for his daughter was the heartwarming moment of the episode. More cute than a ten-minutes kittens video, with feelings.

 

D.Ramsey was as always flawless. He and A.M. Anderson have imo great chemistry and the "ex-husband"/"boyfriend" is a contender for line of the week imo.

 

And he had better not be sidelined to give more space to  she-who-shall-not-be-named in the Arrowcave. Because this episode showed me that Oliver/Felicity didn't sideline Oliver/Diggle, to my huge relief. Their scenes were amongst the most powerful, and certainly the most expressive of their feelings, that they ever had. Their friendship shines through.

Edited by Happy Harpy
  • Love 4
bethy

bethy

And he had better not be sidelined

 

 

This is kind of my fear given the whole "I will not allow you to put yourself at risk!"/"You're not the boss of me!"/"Yes, I am!"/"I'm out of here!"/"My beautiful baby, you're totally right!" argument.  I guess if John's not in the field, but in the Arrow Cave we'll still see him. I'm just afraid if he spends too much time with his child, Team Arrow will suffer from his loss.

 

Does that make me a bad person?

slayer2

slayer2

This would be a good time to bring Amanda Waller back into the present and reintroduce Diggle's relationship with the Suicide Squad and Deadshot. That is the episode that brought me into the show so I, myself would love to see more on that front. There's a lot to mine with Sara's murderer being a mystery, if they could throw Diggle back in there to put some feelers out it would make for some great interaction and anything that brings Deadshot back on my screen works for me.

calliope1975

calliope1975

I think Diggle was wrong telling Oliver he was right at the end of The Calm. My hope is that both Diggle and Oliver (but Dig first because I always love how he guides Oliver) figuring out that life doesn't end when you have a child and a family. Those who have chosen to protect others (police, firemen, armed services, etc.) decide that the risk of having a family and being in a dangerous line of work is worth the reward of making the world a better place. 

 

On this topic, I'm okay that Dig makes the wrong decision only if he eventually realizes that and then smacks down Oliver's broody man pain.

  • Love 6
CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)
I think that it is baseless because there are too many variables that could've affected Diggles reduced role.

David Ramsey doing Blue Bloods at the same time (this is a HUGE one) in different cities

Expanded role of Sara

Building up Slade as a villain (which they did poorly)

Laurel's alcoholism/ emotional spiral/sussing out Blood/ healing time

Oliver's life with his family/ mama drama

Felicity's expanded role in season 2A

And there's a lot more that went on that season. So to blame Felicity when Team Arrow time as a whole declined in season 2B is unfair.

 

The Blue Blood thing I doubt it, it doesnt look like DR was even in more than two episodes in that show, in this past season. I dont watch BB  though, I looked at his episodic credits, hmm I might check it out to see how DR is in that. I dont really see anyone saying Felicity is sorely to blame, I see quite often Roy & Sara being blamed for lack of Digs' screentime in season 2. If anything i see Felicity getting a free pass, and any criticism of her effect on Digs is reduced to being "bitter", while other team members are fair play to blame. I do get it and to an extent I agree. I can see how these two characters (Roy & Sara), also being fighters in the field would affect Diggle, and it did/does to an extent. But then with Sara she joined the team in episode 13/14 and was gone by episode 18/19, so really I dont get how she is mostly  blamed for blocking Diggle out of the team, for a whole season. They got carried away with Flashback Sara though, too much of it, so im not denying that likely had an effect on other character's screentime/focus for the season. And Roy joined later in  the season too and sort of hibernated for the rest of the season. Laurel's "big" addiction storyline was like what 2 episodes and the so called Lance drama approximately what? 3 episodes (Heir to the demon, Birds of prey, Time of death). But when being being said, its like it was the whole season. 

 

Diggle was also not just a field agent when he was the lone and initial member of Oliver's team, he used to do some work in the foundry and with tech. The Diggle I knew was more than just a muscle. The way I see it he had to share or lose a role each time a new member was added to the team. And that initially happened when Felicity joined. Not that Im complaining, I totally expected it and loved seeing a different dynamic to the team. I just disagree that she had no effect on his role in team/show, while all the blame goes to the "fighters" of the team. Its not about wanting to go back to the  Oliver/Diggle buddy hour at this stage in the show, not at all, just asking for balance.  I want to see Diggle/Oliver, Diggle/Felicity, Diggle/Roy,  Diggle/Lyla/Digglet, Diggle/screentime etc. 

 

 DR/Diggle has good and funny non verbal body language sure, but it doesn't mean that episode after episode he has to be in that situation. At least thats not what I want for him, nor for his scenes to be mostly ship cheerleading either and that counting as screentime/focus. He can be that too, I dont mind a bit of that, but he is so much better as a well rounded character. And he has got a commanding and sexy voice, so its a waste when they mostly make him a "background bodyguard". Anyway I did like the season opener for him family, friends, action man, a good start. Even though I like Roy, I am a bit concerned how his addition to the team will affect Diggle this year. Roy did seem to have a lot in the field in this episode, but I will wait to see how they balance and deal with the Diggle/Roy situation for the rest of the season. The Flash is starting with four members in its team, maybe the show will learn from them, how they balance all the team members over there. 

Edited by Conell
  • Love 1
quarks

quarks

But then with Sara she joined the team in episode 13/14 and was gone by episode 18/19, so really I dont get how she is mostly  blamed for blocking Diggle out of the team, for a whole season.

 

 

Well, Sara wasn't gone until episode 20. Also, Diggle wasn't blocked for the entire season. He was only blocked, with limited screentime and very few lines, in the very episodes you just mentioned - episodes 13 through 19, with the exception of episode 16.  He had a major action role in episodes 21-23, after Roy was left unconscious for two episodes (21 and 22) and Sara had left the team.

 

And it was explicitly in the script for the last episode.

 

"The Calm" devoted more time to Oliver/Felicity than in any previous episode - about nine minutes. It's actually more time than Oliver/Laurel have ever gotten in a single episode. Despite this focus, Diggle still had four major scenes, most of which focused on him, not shipbuilding, including the birth of his kid and a hug from Oliver. So the increased focus on Felicity and Felicity/Oliver didn't take focus from Diggle or eliminate Diggle/Oliver scenes on the character side.

 

On the action side, however, things were different. In the beginning of the episode, Diggle is shown as part of the action part of the team, in two separate scenes.  Post the datebomb, Oliver pulls Diggle from the field saying that Roy can handle it.  In the next to last action scene at the boxing ring, Diggle is absent, and Roy is dismantling the bomb, taking over Diggle's action role. Which was fine for this particular episode, fitting into the overall theme, and I now like Roy, so I'm good.  I'm just hoping that it's not a trend and Diggle isn't just stuck in the Arrow Cave dispensing wisdom.

  • Love 7
statsgirl

statsgirl

 

I just disagree that she had no effect on his role in team/show, while all the blame goes to the "fighters" of the team. 

We did get scenes of Diggle teaching Felicity to defend herself.

 

I'd like more Diggle/Felicity scenes. They have a good dynamic (e.g. talking about the seat belt in 2x01)  I'm not sure about his scenes with Roy though. The age difference is too great for them to be friends and Diggle's skill set different from Roy's. I think if there is any mentoring of Roy happening, it's going to be with Oliver.

CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)

Diggle trended the entire episode apparently. Newsflash to the writers. More diggle, less the other useless character.

Well I will agree with you on the first part , that's awesome.

@Quarks. Ok I stand corrected about the actual episode count thanks, the rest, Im just going to agree to disagree with you there, except maybe on your last paragraph.

The age difference is too great for them to be friends and Diggle's skill set different from Roy's. I think if there is any mentoring of Roy happening, it's going to be with Oliver.

I would expect their scenes/interaction together at least, something.

Edited by Conell
JenMcSnark

JenMcSnark

I'm rewatching parts of S1 to get some of the bad taste of S3 out of my mouth and just had to comment on one of Diggle's lines in 1:03 that I had forgotten.  At the auction:

 

O:  Got your eyes open?

D:  (Looks at O like the annoyance that he is) That's what I'm here for sir...that and answering your patronizing questions. 

 

I need MOAR of this.  

  • Love 5
calliope1975

calliope1975

Diggle really needs his own costume and a secret identity. Any suggestions?

 

Yay, I found it. This idea won't fit in with the rest of Arrow's heroes, but I'm not a fan of the mask. I don't think it really hides their identity, and oftentimes, just looks stupid (I'm looking at you, Roy.)

 

I prefer Marvel's approach. Other than cowls, does anyone in the MCU wear a mask? I like that Black Widow and Hawkeye just have kickass uniforms. I'd like to see something similar to what SHIELD ops wear. Tactical and practical. But this is Arrow, so...hmmm. I don't want a hood, that's too repetitive. Yeah, I'm sticking with black tactical gear. Maybe an emblem on the chest area. 

 

That's too boring, I know.

  • Love 4
statsgirl

statsgirl

I like the idea of an emblem in the chest area. I've always thought that cowls and masks limit vision and something bright and eye-catching in the chest area with otherwise black gear would pull people's attention away from his face (because sadly, for too many people, all black men look alike).

 

And it has to be something that draws attention to his arms. If I were a bad guy, just looking at the size of those arms would make me run.

  • Love 1
Happy Harpy

Happy Harpy

I needed to say again how much I love Diggle, how awesome he is, and join the choir of those who say we need more Diggle on the show. More Teammate Diggle.

 

I love him and Lyla. They're cool and sweet and have chemistry. That's how you introduce a viable love interest. By introducing a character, and not a walking trope/plot device.

 

I love Diggle and that's why there's something that really, really pissed me off. I don't know how it played onscreen, but reading it, it's probably one of the most OOC writing I have seen on the show so far. I talk about Diggle telling Oliver to give up on Roy (cut him loose, kick him to the curb?).

I will never believe that Diggle would say such a thing, especially if Roy's culpability wasn't proven, whereas he went against a freaking member of the League of Assassins, knowingly, in order to protect a mirakuru-ed and dangerous Roy who had indeed committed a crime, not half a season ago. Diggle has imo a "leave no one behind" mentality so this reaction made no sense to me.

Looking back, I think that's what truly made me think that the writers had begun to phase Diggle out in favor of Roy.

  • Love 6

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