John Diggle: Brother In Arms

[quarks]

Yeah. Diggle didn't appear until about halfway through the pilot, and had a minor role in the first two episodes, which was massively expanded when Arrow realized that they had a huge problem with those horrible voiceovers.  The producers have even said that they didn't initially intend to bring Diggle into the secret so early, but it was either that, or voiceovers. So, HI DIGGLE. 

 

The first four episodes also suggest that Laurel was originally intended to have a larger crimefighting role, in her attorney capacity throughout the first season, working as the Hood's partner even as she struggled with her relationship with Oliver. For a number of reasons that didn't work out, so Diggle also took over that partnership role, as well as providing research. When Arrow decided to abandon its original love triangle plan and kill off Tommy, Diggle and Felicity both stepped into the Best Friends role, with Diggle also keeping the mentor role. 

[lemotomato]

They would complain if Diggle was the one sticking his tongue in Oliver's mouth. Haha. Sorry!

Honestly, I thought they had some pretty slashy moments in season 1. When DR says in interviews "Thank goodness Felicity showed up to mix things up" I wonder if he picked up on that too. 

[kismet]

Diggle was temporarily the leader of the Suicide Squad. That's definitely a major expansion from his original role. Deadshot was in 8 episodes, and Diggle was a major factor in how he-- a comic canon character!-- "died": Deadshot sacrificed himself in part so Diggle and Lyla could go back to their daughter. 

 

I can't explain why Diggle doesn't get promoted as much BTS, but I think his role on the show has expanded just as much as Felicity's has, and has been more widely accepted for whatever reason. ::cough::because he's a guy::cough:: No one complained about Diggle (and Andy) just happening to be in Oliver's flashbacks in 3x14, but boy oh boy was everyone upset about Felicity's cameo.

Alright, let's just be honest here - that cameo with FS, the serial killer picture & the "you're cute" was just a dumb cameo. I mean it was dumb that OQ was even in QC, nevermind the fact that FS just randomly delivers paper to his mother's desk in the middle of the night, just when OQ is there. It was a little contrived for silly reasons and felt a little like a candy treat for fans of O/F.

 

Diggle's flashback seemed to flesh out more of his character & introduce his brother (who had been a recurring character in name since s1). So in that regard his flashback had more substance to it. It could be used in later episodes. It gave us a taste of what Andy & Dig's relationship had been like. Overall it was a well placed & well written flashback that served more purposes than whatever their intent was with that "cute" picture.

 

As to why BTS people do not talk more about Diggle, I'm flabbergasted a little as well. His role seems to have expanded as much as in value as FS, with the exception of the romantic part. But the fact, that they have both declared each other brothers - to me that's about as high as you can go in the relationship track without it crossing non-platonic lines. Perhaps, they are trying to keep his story under wraps this season because it is that good. That is what I am going to tell myself, that any little bit or morsel they give us will spoil the whole thing.

[Primal Slayer]

Diggle was temporarily the leader of the Suicide Squad. That's definitely a major expansion from his original role. Deadshot was in 8 episodes, and Diggle was a major factor in how he-- a comic canon character!-- "died": Deadshot sacrificed himself in part so Diggle and Lyla could go back to their daughter. 

 

I can't explain why Diggle doesn't get promoted as much BTS, but I think his role on the show has expanded just as much as Felicity's has, and has been more widely accepted for whatever reason. ::cough::because he's a guy::cough:: No one complained about Diggle (and Andy) just happening to be in Oliver's flashbacks in 3x14, but boy oh boy was everyone upset about Felicity's cameo.

He was temporary leader for 1 episode? The same episode that had Deadshot sacrifice himself (which he may not even be dead) also had Deadshot as the main character and expanded his role beyond Diggle. Deadshot didn't become Deadshot with the help of Diggle or because of Diggle. Diggle is basically a supporting character to Felicity and Oliver and hasn't been given that much prominence as Felicity.  

[AyChihuahua]

I wonder if Digg will get backlash for not immediately forgiving Oliver and moving on. I personally am 100% on his side, and in fact I am irritated that everyone else (hello Laurel, who never forgave a slight however minor, yet is immediately fine with Oliver leaving them to "die" on a dungeon floor) was instantly over it. I kind of think he will get backlash. There seems to be a lot of protectiveness for Oliver's character, so whenever anyone else speaks out against him (other than villains, obviously), they get a lot of hate.

[Angel12d]

Most people love Diggle. I doubt very much he'll get backlash. People might get bored of the storyline if they drag it out but I don't see any backlash on his character. He has every reason to be pissed. 

[apinknightmare]

Diggle is basically a supporting character to Felicity and Oliver and hasn't been given that much prominence as Felicity.  

 

Uh...what? I mean, yes, they have had him as a supporting character to Oliver and Felicity as a couple, but really just supportive to Oliver as a character. And I really don't get where you're coming from with Felicity getting more prominence. I mean yes, to a certain extent, because she is/was Oliver's love interest, but Diggle's got the storyline about his brother (which was part of a storyline in S1, S2, and allegedly in S4). He's worked with the Suicide Squad in his own storyline twice. He's gotten married, had a baby. 

 

We what, met Felicity's mother and ex boyfriend? And her "storyline" with Ray was more about Ray than it was her. So yeah, more recently we've seen more of Felicity, but Diggle has gotten much, much more character development over the course of the series. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I found it ridiculous that they had Laurel just go with the flow over Olivers "betrayal". But I don't see Diggle getting any major hate as a lot of people think he is in the right. But I don't think the writers are going to have Diggle hate him for more then 2 episodes instead of stretching it out a ridiculous amount of episodes.

[lemotomato]

He was temporary leader for 1 episode? The same episode that had Deadshot sacrifice himself (which he may not even be dead) also had Deadshot as the main character and expanded his role beyond Diggle. Deadshot didn't become Deadshot with the help of Diggle or because of Diggle. Diggle is basically a supporting character to Felicity and Oliver and hasn't been given that much prominence as Felicity.  

Diggle was also the leader of the Suicide Squad in the episode the Squad was introduced, 2x16. And I was addressing your point that Diggle wasn't a part of  "the major turning point for any hero or villain", which he was, even if it was the "death" rather than the creation of a villain. And now that I think about it, Diggle was part of one of Oliver's major turning points in becoming more than just a guy crossing out names in a book when he tricked him into stopping the Royal Flush gang in 1x06.

 

I would also argue that at this point, Diggle has more of his own storyline than Felicity does, and less of just a "support" to Oliver, if only because two of Felicity's expanded roles are tied to Oliver/Oliver's former company, while Diggle's role-- father, husband, avenging brother-- has nothing to do with Oliver. I don't even know how Diggle can be considered as "just" a supporting character to Felicity. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by lemotomato

[SmallScreenDiva]

No one feels threatened by Diggle, I think, he's Arrow's Yoda (despite some weird advice in S3). Also, he's not a love interest supplanting the original. His status as a fan favorite is pretty much unassailable. I have a feeling the fact he's black also plays a role in his critics pulling back from being too harsh as they probably don't want to be accused of being racist. Not that criticism of Diggle = racism, of course not. But I could see detractors being accused of that.

[tv echo]

The CW's S2 Character Bio Card for Diggle...

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307038822767490.1073741835.104137579724283&type=3

[statsgirl]

From the Felicity thread:

Has Diggle even changed that much? We've got to know him better but i feel like nothing drastic with him. He is the only character who never gets any flak. Oliver, Quentin, Malcolm all have their detractors.

I think one reason for that may be because Diggle didn't have much drama over the course of the show.  Yet.  He came on with a tragedy (Andy's death) but since then he's found a purpose working with Oliver, reconnected with Lyla, had a baby and remarried.  All that is pretty non-dramatic and doesn't interfere with the comics of the show.

 

I wonder if that will be different in s4 if his estrangement from Oliver continues.  Will people be angry at Diggle for being at odds with Oliver (as they were at Felicity), or will he get a pass because he's a guy and wears a cool new costume?

[kismet]

I think a lot of people are on Digs side. I'm usually a strong supporter of OQ, and even Im okay with Diggle being pissed for awhile mask or no mask. I understand why OQ did what he had to do, but dig is well within reason to be mad for awhile. Personally, I think Lyla is gonna be the one to bridge the estrangement only cuz its a very Waller/Argus thing he did. FS may help too, but I'm guessing more Lyla

[bijoux]

Yeah, Lyla and Oliver bonding about doing the ugly when necessary definitely points in that direction. I don't think I'll be mad at John if he is unforgiving. I'll be sad if I don't get bromance scenes for too long.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver should have taken Felicity or Thea. Taking someone else's loved one was shitty, and it isn't his right to decide it was worth it.

[Angel12d]

I'm totally on Diggle's side. He has every right to be angry and I think mostly everyone would agree with that. Oliver deserves to be given the cold shoulder. It should take time for them to repair their relationship. I just hope it doesn't drag out all season. That would get tiresome. But I'm all for Diggle letting him have it.

[lemotomato]

Oliver should have taken Felicity or Thea. Taking someone else's loved one was shitty, and it isn't his right to decide it was worth it.

I disagree. Strategically, Lyla was the best person to kidnap not just because of her connection to Diggle, who Oliver knew would be the de facto team leader and the one he needed to negotiate with, but also because if things had not gone the way he hoped/planned, she was the person with the best self defense/survival/escape skills.

[kismet]

I wish they had found someway to take Lyla without abandoning Lil Sara. Taking Lyla was strategically the best decision. Abandoning SD was unnecessary for the writers to take it that far. They could have shown MM or leave someone behind to watch her. Heck OQ could have stayed himself & given the same msg in person instead of over the phone & then jumped out the window.

[statsgirl]

We don't know how long Sara was alone though.  It could have been as short as half an hour.  While I'm adamently against young children being left alone, she was in a safe place, warm, and presumably well fed.  It was a rotten thing for Oliver-as-Al Sa Him to do, but he took care to make it as easy for Sara as possible by phoning Diggle right away Children have been left in much worse circumstances.

 

 Strategically, Lyla was the best person to kidnap not just because of her connection to Diggle, who Oliver knew would be the de facto team leader and the one he needed to negotiate with, but also because if things had not gone the way he hoped/planned, she was the person with the best self defense/survival/escape skills.

I agree. I think that's one of the reasons Oliver chose her, because she was best able to handle herself in the situation. Also, Thea and Felicity were close to Oliver so the impetus to save them by sacrificing Nyssa wouldn't have been as great. Maybe Diggle and Laurel would thought that Felicity had decided she would rather stay with Oliver in Nanda Parbat than without him in Starling City. Whereas with Lyla, it was definitely a hostage situation.

Edited September 26, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

That's my point. Lyla may have been strategically the best (although leaving Sara alone was just terrible), but he does not get to decide that someone else's wife makes the most logical hostage. That is not his choice to make.

[lemotomato]

I'm not sure what he's supposed to base his plan on if not logic and strategy? I'm not saying it wasn't a dick decision on his part, but he did what he had to do.

Edited September 25, 2015 by lemotomato

[Angel12d]

But that's the conflict here, isn't it? Oliver thought he was doing what he had to do and Diggle believed that his family should always be off-limits. I'm definitely interested in seeing how they overcome this. 

[statsgirl]

That's my point. Lyla may have been strategically the best (although leaving Sara alone was just terrible), but he does not get to decide that someone else's wife makes the most logical hostage. That is not his choice to make.

As the kidnapper, I think it is his choice.

 

If the show had gone differently and Oliver had teamed up with Diggle instead of Malcolm, yes, Diggle could have helped him decide. But they didn't go that route and so Oliver chose the person who could best handle being kidnapped and who would be most effective in getting them to give up Nyssa.

[wingster55]

I can't explain why Diggle doesn't get promoted as much BTS

 

It is weird. It's like Candice Patton on Flash...or IIRC Kat Graham on TVD.

Is there a connection between the three? Hmm

[AyChihuahua]

As the kidnapper, I think it is his choice.

That feels unnecessarily snarky to me.  And also stating the obvious.  The kidnapper, aka the villain, picks who to kidnap.  But then he needs to be willing to accept the consequences.  So here, Oliver, aka the villain in this scenario, is going to have to accept the fact that he did a shitty thing and, especially if this were RL, Digg would never speak to him again.  Lyla wasn't even part of Team Arrow, and Oliver doesn't get to use Digg's loved ones against him and then expect Digg to be okay with it.

 

Oh, and I keep hearing that Lyla made the most sense because she could take care of herself bc she was ARGUS.  She's awesome and all, but what was she, completely weaponless, actually supposed to do to defend herself v the LOA?  And since Oliver was there and in charge, why did the hostage NEED to be someone who could take care of herself?  If the reason it was okay is that Oliver wouldn't let anything happen to her, how is it any different with a different hostage Oliver also would not have let anything happen to?  

 

I think he didn't take Felicity or Thea bc he couldn't stand to do something so scary and terrible to HIS loved ones.  But he was fine doing it to Digg's.  Which is shitty as hell.  Not taking Digg makes sense bc Digg would have kicked a lot of asses, but not taking Thea or Felicity was selfish of Oliver.  (He should have taken Laurel, really.  Except nobody really cares about Laurel.)

Edited October 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[lemotomato]

Except that Oliver never said he expected Digg to be OK with it. When Digg told him he was done with Oliver during their goodbye scene, Oliver accepted it. He never expected to be forgiven for his decisions.

I pointed out that Lyla was strategically a good pick as a kidnap victim because while she was unarmed and tied up, she still was more capable of handling the situation compared to Felicity, a civilian, and Thea, who just came back from the dead. Like I said, taking a mother and wife as hostage was a dick move, but I really don't think Oliver picked Lyla purely for selfish reasons.

[Sakura12]

(He should have taken Laurel, really.  Except nobody really cares about Laurel.)

 

Slade did that in Season 2 and no one cared but Quentin. 

 

Diggle has every right to be mad at Oliver for deciding his loved ones were expendable. Arrow's LOA was such a joke that Laurel can defeat them so really Oliver could've taken anyone and they could've handled themselves against them. 

[apinknightmare]

I think he didn't take Thea or Felicity because he was worried he couldn't keep up the facade around him. And so far, Oliver seems willing to accept the consequences of his actions. I mean, Diggle told him that sorry wasn't enough this time, and Oliver didn't argue. I guess we'll see what Oliver does when he returns from his Sunmer of Love.

[statsgirl]

Oh, and I keep hearing that Lyla made the most sense because she could take care of herself bc she was ARGUS.  She's awesome and all, but what was she, completely weaponless, actually supposed to do to defend herself v the LOA?  And since Oliver was there and in charge, why did the hostage NEED to be someone who could take care of herself?  If the reason it was okay is that Oliver wouldn't let anything happen to her, how is it any different with a different hostage Oliver also would not have let anything happen to? 

I didn't mean it in a snarky way. I meant that since Oliver had to kidnap someone, it had to be his choice who he took.  He couldn't go to Diggle and ask permission.

 

Look at it another way -- who was the person least likely to get injured or PTSD and that Nyssa would sacrifice herself for?

 

Felicity is a civilian.  She doesn't know how to fight and to be kidnapped and held by Al Sah him, the face and body she had just been making love to, would have been very traumatic. Same with Thea since he's her older brother and she just got out of the LP.

 

Diggle would have fought the LoA with every breath and most likely would have got very injured in the process.

 

Lyla was a soldier. She'd been through war and ARGUS, she knew how to handle herself in bad situations. She accepted that sometimes you have to do what you don't want to do. And she wasn't so emotionally close to Oliver that seeing him kidnap would screw her up as much as it would Thea or Felicity or Laurel. And she's a more experienced fighter than Laurel.

 

And Oliver is willing to take the consequences.  Except as he told Felicity, he didn't expect to still be alive to face them.  He was willing to have the worst consequence on himself.

 

Given that Oliver had to take someone to get Nyssa to give herself up, who would have been a better choice?

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, and bringing a bunch of assassins around a baby.  That could very easily have gone really wrong.

 

It's a tv show, so I'm sure Digg will get over it, probably fairly quickly.  But it's very unrealistic that he would, and yet another thing taking me out of the show.

[looptab]

I think mostly Oliver just does what he thinks he has to do. Think about season 2 finale and the Unthinkable part. I think the risk was higher then; kidnapping Lyla he had control over the situation, letting Felicity be taken by Slade, not so much. Yet he did it.

[lemotomato]

Oh, and bringing a bunch of assassins around a baby. That could very easily have gone really wrong.

It's a tv show, so I'm sure Digg will get over it, probably fairly quickly. But it's very unrealistic that he would, and yet another thing taking me out of the show.

Diggle made some sort of peace with the guy that killed his brother for money. I don't think it would be OOC for him to forgive Oliver eventually.

[kismet]

I feel like OQ's rationales for taking Lyla were strategically sound, I think it was still a douche thing to do. I believe both OQ & Dig understand the strategy behind taking Lyla. However, I feel like the cumulative emotional betrayal of OQ first choosing MM and then taking Lyla was a lot for Dig to comprehend even if the strategy is sound. The soldier in Dig can recognize the strategy, but the person/brother in him I imagine is not as ready to accept it. The emotions behind the decision and the emotions it triggered are too strong and complicated for even a few months of separation to magically heal.

 

OQ was ready to accept the consequences of his actions. In the finale, he didn't ask for forgiveness or try to convince Dig that he was in the right. He allowed Dig to feel whatever he wanted to feel. It was different response than in s1, when OQ seemed stubborn about understanding their conflict after the Deadshot incidence. Because even if it was strategically the right thing to do; not discussing the plan with Dig was a pretty big emotional violation of two brothers - not just two partners.

 

I feel like it is within Dig's character to eventually forgive OQ. It will not be a simple or easy decision. I think Lyla will help Dig come to terms with the circumstances of what OQ did in light of the risks that he face and the danger facing SC. In many ways it was poetic what happened to OQ. In s2, he faced the unthinkable and put FS in harm's way intentionally. In s3, he faced another unthinkable situation - violating his brotherhood with John to save SC. In 2 years, OQ willingly sacrificed the things closest to him to save many. Dig will see this sacrifice and that will help him come to terms with the betrayal.

 

It was a selfless thing for OQ to be willing to give up everything close to him, including his own life. But in many ways, he underestimated just how much it might cost when you gamble with other people's lives as part of the bargain. In s2, he asked for FS permission. In s3, he assumed Dig's permission & that was perhaps his biggest violation. He didn't trust Dig enough to be willing to go with his plan. OQ should have trusted Dig enough to let him in on at least the kidnapping portion of the plan. I think that will be the hardest thing for Dig to get over. Because their was a violation of trust and that doesn't heal as readily or evenly. That scar tissue will linger long beyond s4, even after they repair their relationship. But I do see it in Dig's character to eventually forgive OQ. I think he will forgive him, long before he will be able to fully trust him.

[EmilyBettFan]

I think he knew that if Slade did take Felicity (which obviously he did) that Slade would want to wait when Oliver was around so that he can show Oliver that he had "the one he loved." That's why he was waiting around with Felicity. He was waiting for Oliver to get there so that they can duel.

[Ann Mack]

Diggle made some sort of peace with the guy that killed his brother for money. I don't think it would be OOC for him to forgive Oliver eventually.

Can you explain the Diggle "made some sort of peace with the guy that killed his brother for money"? I thought his stance was from a point of "honor" for Deadshot because at some point Deadshot could have killed him and for a situation they were both involved in, which isn't necessarily Diggle giving forgiveness. I can't remember verbatim but I do recall Diggle saying something about Deadshot having more honor or a moral compass than maybe A.R.G.U.S. or something?

 

I also think it might be harder for Diggle but eventually he'll come around but he also saw Oliver as his brother. The speech that Lyla gave to Oliver while she was tied up you can see from Oliver's face it was having an impact. So I think that wound cuts deep. Also, didn't Diggle tell Oliver not only did he feel betrayed, and hurt by his lack of trust for him, but that he also lost respect for Oliver as well?  

Edited October 3, 2015 by Ann Mack

[statsgirl]

I think he first started respecting Deadshot when he helped Diggle get Lyla out of the Russian prison. That respect grew when He had to work with Lawton on the Suicide Squad episode and grew to know a bit more about him and why he became a hired killer. And then, of course, as far as Diggle knows, Lawton sacrificed himself so that Digg, Lyla and Cupid could get out with the hostages.  (I'm still hoping he's not really dead.)  IIRC, Diggle didn't want Lawton to die, he only agreed to the plan because Lawton said he could get himself out.

[lemotomato]

Can you explain the Diggle "made some sort of peace with the guy that killed his brother for money"? I thought his stance was from a point of "honor" for Deadshot because at some point Deadshot could have killed him and for a situation they were both involved in, which isn't necessarily Diggle giving forgiveness. I can't remember verbatim but I do recall Diggle saying something about Deadshot having more honor or a moral compass than maybe A.R.G.U.S. or something?

 

I also think it might be harder for Diggle but eventually he'll come around but he also saw Oliver as his brother. The speech that Lyla gave to Oliver while she was tied up you can see from Oliver's face it was having an impact. So I think that wound cuts deep. Also, didn't Diggle tell Oliver not only did he feel betrayed, and hurt by his lack of trust for him, but that he also lost respect for Oliver as well?  

Statsgirl's post covered mostly everything I meant about "some sort of peace". I don't think Diggle actually forgave Deadshot, but if he could put aside years worth of hate and anger to work with him twice and even have a drink in his memory at the end of 3x17, I don't think it's unbelieveable for Diggle to forgive Oliver within a couple episodes into season 4. Especially considering the 5 months that have passed in the show's timeline.

Edited October 4, 2015 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I think Diggle would get to a place where the anger has died down against Oliver and it's just the hurt and distrust that remains.  He's going to WANT to be able to forgive Oliver but IMO not know how.  He might also feel something that makes him think that forgiving him is tantamount to betraying his family (even if Lyla doesn't feel that way).  So the question becomes, what would be enough to make DIggle feel like Oliver has earned trust again?  It's easier to forgive than to trust. 

[AyChihuahua]

I think mostly Oliver just does what he thinks he has to do. Think about season 2 finale and the Unthinkable part. I think the risk was higher then; kidnapping Lyla he had control over the situation, letting Felicity be taken by Slade, not so much. Yet he did it.

He didn't have control over the situation.  He brought a bunch of assassins into the home of a mother and an infant, to grab the mother and take her.  If Lyla had reacted differently, or if one of the assassins had reacted differently, Lyla and/or Sara, an actual infant, would be dead.  It only turned out okay because it was written to turn out okay.  

 

Also, Felicity agreed to the plan re Slade.  I am in the camp that they didn't discuss it ahead of time, but when he put the syringe in her hand and asked if she understood, her not running screaming out of the house was her consent.  He had no consent from any of his team members for the decisions he made for them.  He put them in extreme danger and moved them around like chess pieces.  He was supposedly so willing to do anything and keep them out of the plan to "keep them safe," but he was completely willing to put them in incredible danger when HE decided it was worth the risk, without ever informing them of the risks or any of his plans.  That is incredibly messed up, and a far more realistic outcome would be for Digg to tell him to eff off forever.  He brought ASSASSINS into the home of an INFANT.  (Actually, the most realistic outcome of S3 would be all of TA dead and Starling City a city of corpses.)

 

Given that Oliver had to take someone to get Nyssa to give herself up, who would have been a better choice?

I said this in my initial post, but again: Thea, Felicity, or Laurel.  If Lyla worked, Thea or Felicity would have worked, and really, Laurel would maybe have worked best because Nyssa liked Laurel.  (Plus it wasn't about getting her to give herself up so much as getting TA to give her up, meaning any member of TA would have worked.)  Not taking Digg makes some sense, because unless he was darted he'd kick too many LOA asses and ramp up the violence during the hostage-taking.  Taking his best friend's wife from her home where she was with her infant daughter was an absolutely terrible thing to do, and really, he is only in this whole idiotic position because he was SO INCREDIBLY STUPID all season.  If he had just handed over Malcolm in 3.4 instead of fricking putting a psychopathic mass murderer under his explicit protection, none of this would have happened.

Edited October 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

Given that Oliver had to take someone to get Nyssa to give herself up, who would have been a better choice?

 

I said this in my initial post, but again: Thea, Felicity, or Laurel.  If Lyla worked, Thea or Felicity would have worked, and really, Laurel would maybe have worked best because Nyssa liked Laurel.

 

I can't help but think no one would have believed he'd really hurt Thea, Felicity or even Laurel.  It would be hard to believe that he'd hurt Lyla but she's not someone he loves thus making the threat at least plausible.  If they hadn't taken him seriously, then he'd be forced to "prove" his intent and that would have required actually hurting them which was what he didn't want to do.  By nabbing Lyla away from Sara and leaving her alone, he did establish proof of how serious he was but the threat and proof was non physical and left everyone free of physical scars.  

[statsgirl]

Laurel would probably have worked best to get Nyssa to give herself up but Oliver may already have felt so guilty over everything he did to Laurel in the past, he wouldn't want to hurt her again.

 

Taking his best friend's wife from her home

But it's not like Diggle had the ability to have given Oliver permission.  She's not Diggle's possession, just as Felicity and Thea are not Oliver's possessions just because they are tied to him emotionally.  Like Felicity with Slade, Lyla is the only one who could have agreed.

 

Also Thea and Felicity would have been more traumatized by Al Sah him's cruelty because they loved Oliver. Lyla didn't, she was a soldier , she knew the decisions a soldier has to make, and she knew how to take care of herself.  She was the person least likely to get hurt in the kidnapping.  Think how awful it would have been if they had taken Sara.

 

Diggle can be mad at Oliver as long as he wants and take even longer to trust him but the real issue is between Lyla and Oliver.  If she' forgives and forgets, he needs to as well.

[BkWurm1]

Diggle can be mad at Oliver as long as he wants and take even longer to trust him but the real issue is between Lyla and Oliver.  If she' forgives and forgets, he needs to as well.

 

Not sure if I agree that if Lyla forgives that Diggle needs to as well.  In the same way that because of who Lyla was and the relationship she had with Oliver made her kind of an ideal person to kidnap, that understanding and slight emotional distance is what would make it easier for her to forgive Oliver than it would be for Diggle.  It was more personal for Diggle.  Even while kidnapped, it was what Oliver was doing to Diggle that she talked about, not what he was doing to her so while I do think Oliver needs to also give his apology to Lyla and she is free to give him her forgiveness, I think DIggle's issue is equally as valid and separate from Lyla's. 

 

If he is a smart man he will take into consideration how his wife feels and hopefully that would ease the guilt he puts upon himself for not being able to protect his family but until he finds a way that lets the trust between them start to rebuild, even if he should forgive Oliver (since Lyla likely will) and move forward, how can he?  Until he figures out what it takes, he can't even ask for Oliver to do that nebulous thing. 

 

Usually mending a break in trust only comes (when it comes) with time and a reestablishment of "normal" behavior until one trust that the "normal" behavior is more real than the thing the action that broke the trust.  (Which sometimes means we lie to ourselves because we want it to be true)  So what kind of behavior from Oliver would convince Diggle that he can trust that he wouldn't cross that line on their friendship again or conversely for Diggle to decide that Oliver crossing that line in the past and possibly again in the future was justified and would be again in the future if it happened?   

 

Is being willing to die to protect Diggle really enough since Oliver in the past was willing to die on a frequent basis.  In the past, no, but now?  I think yes.

 

Why?  Because I think Diggle is going to see how much Oliver now values living and life and the life and happiness he has with Felicity and the relationship he has with his sister and the possibility of what he can do for the city in and out of the mask.  I think Oliver under those circumstances still being willing to stand between Diggle and a bullet will have more meaning .  He would be showing he is willing to put Diggle's happiness and by extension Diggle's family's happiness ahead of his (and ahead of his loved ones happiness as well).  I think that could prove to Diggle that he can trust Oliver with what's most important in his life. 

 

Or at least I hope so. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by BkWurm1

[looptab]

He didn't have control over the situation.  He brought a bunch of assassins into the home of a mother and an infant, to grab the mother and take her.  If Lyla had reacted differently, or if one of the assassins had reacted differently, Lyla and/or Sara, an actual infant, would be dead.  It only turned out okay because it was written to turn out okay.  

 

Also, Felicity agreed to the plan re Slade.  I am in the camp that they didn't discuss it ahead of time, but when he put the syringe in her hand and asked if she understood, her not running screaming out of the house was her consent.  He had no consent from any of his team members for the decisions he made for them.  He put them in extreme danger and moved them around like chess pieces.  He was supposedly so willing to do anything and keep them out of the plan to "keep them safe," but he was completely willing to put them in incredible danger when HE decided it was worth the risk, without ever informing them of the risks or any of his plans.  That is incredibly messed up, and a far more realistic outcome would be for Digg to tell him to eff off forever.  He brought ASSASSINS into the home of an INFANT.  (Actually, the most realistic outcome of S3 would be all of TA dead and Starling City a city of corpses.)

 

 

Which one of the two situations was riskier wasn't really my point, and it doesn't matter to me whether Felicity consented or not in this instance. I brought that as an example to demonstrate that IMO, Oliver will do what he believes he has to do, and go to extreme lenghts if it serves his purpose. He was able to put in ultimate danger the woman he loves - I believe there really was no way of knowing that Slade would have waited until Oliver showed up to kill her, or the final outcome of that fight: he couldn't be certain that Felicity would have succeded in curing Slade - for the sake of defeating Slade and saving the city; he went and threatened his own mother to stop the Undertaking; he went to make the ultimate sacrifice to make sure his sister was safe.

Kidnapping his best friend's wife because he was trying to defeat RAG and the League it's "no big deal", if you consider he has done even worse to the people closest to him, and himself. That's what I was trying to say. He's made this way. 

 

BTW, when kidnapping Lyla he was in command of those assassins, and I believe no matter how she would have reacted, nothing bad would have happened to her, at least not until the hour for the exchange was up, since a hurt/dead Lyla could have resulted in the failure of their mission.

Edited October 4, 2015 by looptab

[statsgirl]

 Even while kidnapped, it was what Oliver was doing to Diggle that she talked about, not what he was doing to her so while I do think Oliver needs to also give his apology to Lyla and she is free to give him her forgiveness, I think DIggle's issue is equally as valid and separate from Lyla's.

I assumed that Lyla talked to Oliver about his relationship with Diggle because that is what had a better chance of reaching him and changing his plan.

 

I agree that Diggle's issue is separate than Lyla's.  I think I was reacting to an impression I got that Oliver should have kidnapped one of his own women (Thea, Felicity or Laurel) rather than Diggle's.

[kismet]

Since we were on the topic of what to call Mr. John Diggle in the relationship thread... I've decided until Digg, Diggle, Mr. Diggle, Johnny or John actually returns to my screen and JohnPod goes away - moving forward John Diggle will be JD in my posts. I'll admit I'm a lazy typer and I love abbreviations - but it was always worth it for me to spend the extra time to type out Dig instead of just JD. Because I loved the character of John Diggle, he was so amazing, funny, caring, badass & levelheaded. He's the freaking Yoda on the show & backbone to the whole team/family dynamic. But ever since parts of s3 & now s4, that man has disappeared from my screen.

 

The writers have done it for various reasons (primarily for prop & plot), but either way I do not recognize this new & unimproved John Diggle. So he's now just JD (and that makes me sad). I understand his hurt, anger & trust issues with OQ after the Lyla incident (he is in the right about that), but these issues go deeper and longer than that. After 402, clearly, I do not know JD as well as I thought I did. :(

Edited October 16, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

Which one of the two situations was riskier wasn't really my point, and it doesn't matter to me whether Felicity consented or not in this instance. I brought that as an example to demonstrate that IMO, Oliver will do what he believes he has to do, and go to extreme lenghts if it serves his purpose. He was able to put in ultimate danger the woman he loves - I believe there really was no way of knowing that Slade would have waited until Oliver showed up to kill her, or the final outcome of that fight: he couldn't be certain that Felicity would have succeded in curing Slade - for the sake of defeating Slade and saving the city; he went and threatened his own mother to stop the Undertaking; he went to make the ultimate sacrifice to make sure his sister was safe.

Kidnapping his best friend's wife because he was trying to defeat RAG and the League it's "no big deal", if you consider he has done even worse to the people closest to him, and himself. That's what I was trying to say. He's made this way. 

 

BTW, when kidnapping Lyla he was in command of those assassins, and I believe no matter how she would have reacted, nothing bad would have happened to her, at least not until the hour for the exchange was up, since a hurt/dead Lyla could have resulted in the failure of their mission.

They're superheroes; they're always going to be in danger.  Oliver also sent Felicity into the underground casino, let her be bait for a really creepy serial killer (The Dollmaker), let her stay in the known destruction area during the Undertaking, and let her do tons of other really dangerous things.  But Felicity always agreed to do it.  None of them could do their jobs if they never took any physical risks, but them choosing to be in danger is like being a fireman, whereas being put in danger without their knowledge or consent is being used.

 

And you contradicted your own point, because you admit that Lyla was in danger when the time was up.  So as long as it's past the allotted hour it's no biggie?  Plus, again, Oliver had no way of knowing how Lyla was going to react, and if she'd tried to fight them off in the beginning either she or the BABY could have very easily ended up dead or seriously injured.  Babies can die just from being dropped, for goodness' sake. 

 

I really don't understand why people give him a pass because he was planning to die.  The dude has been planning to die since the first episode of the first season.  He went to fight Malcolm knowing Malcolm was going to kill him (luckily Digg insisted on coming).  He tried to give himself up to Slade for execution.  He told Digg to blow the charges when he was still underground with the charges.  He went to fight RAG the first time knowing RAG was pretty definitely going to kill him.  Until S4 the dude spent half of every season planning to die.  It's really not heroic or impressive or even meaningful when it happens every other week.

 

Final note, just because there's a war doesn't make everything a soldier in that war does okay.  There's a reason there are war crimes tribunals.  In this case, kidnapping a woman and child to get their father to do something, in a war, would be a war crime.  What Oliver did was NOT okay.  Lyla forgiving him does not make it okay, and her forgiving him doesn't mean Digg has to forgive him (although I'm sure he will eventually). 

Edited October 16, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Plus, again, Oliver had no way of knowing how Lyla was going to react, and if she'd tried to fight them off in the beginning either she or the BABY could have very easily ended up dead or seriously injured.  Babies can die just from being dropped, for goodness' sake.

I remember taking a self-defense course and being shocked when we were told that if we were attacked while carrying a baby, drop the baby and fight off the attacker. Babies can survive being dropped but not being kidnapped.

 

I'm not as bothered about Sara being hurt because as long as it was a safe crib (and I'm sure Lyla would have made sure of that) and she wasn't left for hours and hours, Sara would be okay.

 

I think Oliver chose Lyla rather than Diggle partly because Diggle would fight to the end and Lyla wouldn't so she had less chance of being hurt.

 

What Oliver did was not okay but Lyla is a soldier and she understood why he did it, and that he did it in the way least likely to injure another person.

[wingster55]

Lyla being more understanding is a bit jarring since Sara was left alone..but she doesn't know Oliver as well and thus doesn't trust him as much.

[Happy Harpy]

I just want to say that I still love Diggle, I adore D.Ramsey's portrayal of him. Even in dire circumstances and poor environment, the acting is top-notch and Diggle has presence and charisma.

I'll probably have to watch and suffer through PodDiggle (I luckily avoided most of Al-Sahidiot and Podlicity, yet the show is watchable for me this year so far) but I will stay strong and love him just as much as I did before when it's over, just like I did for Oliver and Felicity. Because for me, he isn't the fifth wheel, and he counts as much.

[kismet]

I really can't wait until JD & OQ talk it out because we we really don't know what his specific complaints are. We have probably all inferred correctly. But still I would like to hear it from JDs perspective.

Lyla having a different level of understanding to me makes sense considering she worked with Waller. Also makes me dread thinking what Waller makes her people do.

I also find it interesting that JD & Lyla got divorced before, perhaps they had a similar issue as what is going on between J&O. Because clearly there is more than just JDs anger about the situation. Makes me think it might be something with him and bot just OQ. Just to clarify though I do think JD has a right to be the way he is being with OQ now. I just want to know why and I want them to work it out.