John Diggle: Brother In Arms

[kismet]

I can D/O/F as equal partners & liked the dynamic they have as people of emotional importance to each to other. I think that is what was missing from s3. We lost a lot of D/F interaction and the balance felt off. I did not see it as a situation where Dig would have to choose sides, but somehow the writers made him seem like he was forced to choose sides. And then when he chose OQ, it all blew up in his face when OQ went ahead with his questionable plans in the last few eps. It felt like Dig invested more in OQ and then got burnt more as result of it. But perhaps that was the writers intention all along to move Dig into this position to make the sting of their Gotcha twist in 321/322 hurt more.

 

Honestly, I hope they move away from Dig being a bodyguard & Yoda in the cave role to OQ. I think that Dig deserves to be in field as an equal partner and less of a sidekick. I enjoyed toward the end of the season when they started to refer to each other as brothers. I think that better characterizes their relationship now. I think they are more than friends/partners. Being family, puts them on a whole other level for good and for bad. Brothers give advice to each other all the time, but they don't always listen to each other. Being family means that you care and love for someone, there is no guarantee that that person won't disappoint you or choose not to listen to you. But being family means that you love someone despite their flaws & shortcomings. It also puts an interesting perspective on forgiveness and betrayal. I liked what QL told LL, that he will always love her but he may not be able to forgive her - being family makes it hard to forgive & yet not forgive at the same time. Being family just ups the ante on so many aspects.

 

Moving forward, I think Dig & OQ having a more brotherly relationship as opposed to mentor/bodyguard relationship will open up more doors for the writers because there exists a more give & take relationship with family than there does with friends or work partners. Once you throw Felicity into the mix, I think it will produce whole lot of interesting dynamics again, just like it did in s1/2. The three actors just play off each other so well. Because I did see Dig as a brotherly relationship with FS before he had one with OQ, yet he chose to side more with OQ this season which surprised me until I realized that he was still trying to save OQ. I think his mission to save OQ from OQ/Arrow is officially over. That last trip to NP pretty much completed his duty to that mission. So they need to embark on a new relationship and I think brothers is the way to go. Now that we will get Andy & Mr. Smoak I wonder what that will do to the family dynamic of D/O/F now that there are some serious fissures in their bonds after s3.

Edited June 8, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

I think it's normal that in the end, diggle isn't the most important person in Oliver's life and Oliver isn't the most important person in Diggles life. That's why Diggle can't forgive Oliver for what he did to Lyla. If Oliver was the most important person in Diggs life he would've let it go but he's not.

That's why it's impossible to ask for Diggle to he Oliver's primary support. Because in the end Oliver isn't Diggles primary support, lyla is.

[apinknightmare]

I just don't think it's realistic for Diggle (or anyone, really) to be Oliver's primary support throughout the whole series. When Oliver first came back from the island and was closed off and Diggle was the only one he really let in? Sure. But relationships change, and people's needs change. Oliver's opening up emotionally to more people. Now he's open with Felicity, and he's getting there with Thea. Felicity being his girlfriend now, it's natural that she would be his primary support system, much like Lyla and Diggle are for each other. 

 

In the first season and part of the second, Diggle was the only one helping Oliver out in the field. Then that expanded to include Sara, then Roy, then Laurel, and now Thea. There are probably always going to be things that Oliver only feels like he can share with Diggle, what with the soldier mentality and all that, but relationships change. I'm sure they'll change again. I don't necessarily like it, but...it is what it is, I guess. 

[calliope1975]

I just want Diggle to be sleeveless.

 

He also needs to keep the hiatus beard. 

[Carrie Ann]

I think in S1, Dig kind of shared primary support duties with Tommy, when Oliver was still getting used to being alive again, as he was slowly letting people in. I certainly responded best to his relationship with Dig, but he was by no means the only person Oliver opened up to emotionally that season.

 

In S2, I do think the show gave us more of Felicity lending emotional support, so Dig didn't have to shoulder the whole load. Felicity also brings a different viewpoint usually, so it's not just like you can sub one of them out for the other. (Except this season when the writers seemed to just spin a wheel and attach a motivation to whichever character they landed on.) But I did feel by the end of S2 that the show needed to spend more time on O/D again, and lo and behold, I got all I could ever want in S3.

 

If Diggle wasn't Oliver's primary support person in S3, then who was? The only moments I can remember Felicity being allowed to emotionally support Oliver came in 301, 308, maybe 309, 316, 319, 320, and 323. That's a whopping six/seven out of 23 episodes. Otherwise, their interactions were all business with the emotional stuff underneath. Dig was Oliver's go-to person, and there are several instances where their scenes are the only good part of otherwise shitty episodes, IMO.

 

So it doesn't sound to me like this rift between Oliver and Dig is going to last all that long, but after a season of John being really the only person Oliver would open up to, yeah, I think the pendulum is going to swing back for a time. Hey, if I have to put up with the "evolution" of the show expanding Team Arrow to include every mask in the greater Starling area, I can deal with Oliver's circle of trust expanding too.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[quarks]

He also needs to keep the hiatus beard. 

 

I don't think I have ever agreed with you more.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I just want Diggle to be sleeveless.

 

This. Also, I want Diggle to keep some scruff on his lovely face. (DR has been rocking the look at cons!)

[Velocity23]

What about Dig goes undercover as a stripper? Sorry this pic is taking me places.

[statsgirl]

If Diggle wasn't Oliver's primary support person in S3, then who was? The only moments I can remember Felicity being allowed to emotionally support Oliver came in 301, 308, maybe 309, 316, 319, 320, and 323. That's a whopping six/seven out of 23 episodes. Otherwise, their interactions were all business with the emotional stuff underneath. Dig was Oliver's go-to person, and there are several instances where their scenes are the only good part of otherwise shitty episodes, IMO.

 

So it doesn't sound to me like this rift between Oliver and Dig is going to last all that long, but after a season of John being really the only person Oliver would open up to, yeah, I think the pendulum is going to swing back for a time. Hey, if I have to put up with the "evolution" of the show expanding Team Arrow to include every mask in the greater Starling area, I can deal with Oliver's circle of trust expanding too.

I think one of the things I most disliked about season 3 is how Felicity got shut out of the circle of trust.  It wasn't only that she was stuck in scenes with Palmer, but that Oliver trusted Diggle and even Malcolm Merlyn before he trusted her.  It was to Diggle that Oliver said that he didn't want to die alone down there, Diggle got the bro-hug in The Calm while Felicity got the "Yeah, I love you but this is never going to happen" kiss-off; Diggle got to go to Corto Maltese and Nanda Parbat with Oliver; Diggle got the conversations in multiple episodes about how Oliver feels about Felicity instead of Felicity; and Diggle never once asked Felicity how she felt about Oliver pushing her away.

 

Oliver didn't reach out to people much but what there was, it was to Diggle, Thea and MM, with a small exception in 316 to Felicity, but only after Diggle had told her what Oliver had told him. Without that, Oliver probably wouldn't have talked to Felicity at all about Ra's offer.

 

 

Why can't both felicity and diggle be his primary support? There is no hierarchy there. They're all equal partners.

Others have said it but I'd also like to add my bit:  In order to avoid it being a competition between who is Oliver's bestie, Diggle or Felicity, I think they need to strengthen Diggle's and Felicity's connection in s4. Not their relationship because it's already a good one, but have them support each other more which they barely did in s3 except for that off-screen conversation in The Offer..  (Still angry that everyone got to go to Diggle's for dinner in 307 except for Felicity who was left at working wondering what's wrong with her that all the guys who kiss her then walk away.)

[wingster55]

Is there any particular reason you want Digg to be Oliver's primary source of support? I only ask because what would Felicity be? A LI that doesn't have the ability to get through to him or support him?

 

Yes. I like him and the Diggle/Oliver relationship more than I like Felicity and Olicity. 

 

I feel like Felicity will obviously support him (as will Thea) but neither can truly relate to him on a level that Diggle can. 

 

Furthermore...the show can have Oliver-Diggle be the most important relationship while showing that his #1 person is Felicity. Other shows have. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by wingster55

[dtissagirl]

I've been trying to think if I ever loved a tv show wherein the main relationship was a bromance between 2 het guys... I got nothing. That kind of tv is definitely not for me. I *adore* Diggle, and always wish for more of him on screen, but if the show had stayed Dig-Oliver with no Felicity, I'd never have continued watching. Dudebro televison bores me too much.

[Ceylon5]

He also needs to keep the hiatus beard. 

 

It can be his S4 "disguise"!  Instead of some dumb, ineffective costume, which we all know Diggle doesn't want.  Happy audience, happy Diggle!

[frenchtoast]

Folks, let's be careful when discussing other's opinions and try not to tell them how to watch a show. 

 

Thanks!

[wonderwall]

Yes. I like him and the Diggle/Oliver relationship more than I like Felicity and Olicity. 

 

I feel like Felicity will obviously support him (as will Thea) but neither can truly relate to him on a level that Diggle can. 

 

Furthermore...the show can have Oliver-Diggle be the most important relationship while showing that his #1 person is Felicity. Other shows have. 

 

Imo I want Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity to maintain their partnership equally. I don't want Diggle to be the primary person Oliver goes to nor do I want Felicity to be that person either. I want Oliver to go to both of them. I want Oliver to lean on both of their shoulders when he needs to. That's why their partnership worked in the first two seasons. That's why Team Arrow was created. Why David Ramsey himself often claims the three of them to be the core of the show. That wouldn't have happened if Diggle was the main person Oliver went to when he lost his way. In the words of David Ramsey, "Thank god for Felicity" because things only started picking up when she became a more permanent fixture in Oliver's life.

 

In the end I want what's best for Oliver, and both Diggle and Felicity are the people who are best for him. He deserves that.

 

David Ramsey often says that Diggle is Oliver 5 years from now. I agree. And I agree that no one except for maybe Sara can ever truly relate to Oliver the way Diggle does. But Oliver also needs someone by his side who can offer him a different perspective. Who doesn't relate to him in the sense that they don't have a lot of similar scars because it will open his eyes to a whole new set of possibilities. That's Felicity.

 

 Diggle/Oliver got a lot of important moments this season, quantity wise, they got more moments than Oliver and Felicity so it's not like thier relationship was diminished because Oliver loves Felicity now.  Oliver needs both of them equally for different reasons. Wanting the show to take part of that away would be more detrimental to the show than beneficial.

 

Oliver-Diggle is one of the most important relationships on the show. But for a completely different reason Oliver-Felicity is also one of the most important relationships on the show. They're equal because both Diggle and Felicity helped shape Oliver to who he is today.

 

In the end I think it's better for Oliver to lean on both Diggle and Felicity equally when things go to shit because they both offer a different means of comfort. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

 

I feel like Felicity will obviously support him (as will Thea) but neither can truly relate to him on a level that Diggle can.

 

But Diggle will never be able to relate to Oliver as much as he can to Lyla.  Yes, Oliver is a guy fighting his own type of war but Lyla was in Afghanistan with Diggle, she experienced the war the way he did, they bonded as part of a company (something Oliver didn't have) and knew that their time there was limited (also different than Oliver who has an open-ended crusade).

 

He's also gone through the disintegration of a relationship with Lyla (a larger version of what's happening now in his relationship with Oliver) and he's learned to put it back together and realize what the important things in his life are.

 

For Diggle, his most important relationship should be with Lyla, and not just because they share a child and a marriage but because she understands what he went through in a way no one else can..

[wonderwall]

This sort of reminds me of Grey's Anatomy. Christina was Meredith's person. But that changed when Meredith married Derek. It also reminds me of the movie, Life Partners which is on Netflix. It's a short indie movie about how two best friends go through a transition when one of the friends gets a serious boyfriend and gets married to him. 

 

It's the sad reality of it all. Usually when someone gets married or enters into a really serious relationship, priorities change. Suddenly your best friend/brother/sister aren't as high on the totem pole as your significant other. That's life. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

It's often cultural though and a function of how society is organized, the anthropologists say. In cultures where there are very strict separation between men and women, a friend of the same sex is often a more significant relationship than a spouse.  In this case, however, Diggle's role is as close to Lyla if not closer than it is to Oliver. Good thing he was divorced and single during season 1 so he could form a bond with Oliver.

 

(Far more drastic than a friend losing a person when they get married is how a parent loses a child when they do.  Friendship bonds often remain but a parent loses more when a child marries someone who has different beliefs and traditions.)

[wingster55]

I think there's a way to have Oliver/Diggle (or even Oliver/Felicity/Diggle if they must) be the most important while showing Oliver's main priority is Felicity and/or Thea.

[Chaser]

Anyone else think the title of this thread should be updated? He is not a Bodyguard anymore and much more than a Sidekick. 

[wonderwall]

John Diggle: Father, Husband, Absolute Badass? 

 

That may be too long

[Chaser]

John Diggle: Two Guns and The Truth

 

John Diggle: Brother-in-Arms

 

 

John Diggle: Father, Husband, Absolute Badass? 

 

That may be too long

I'd take John DIggle: Absolute Badass

Edited June 18, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[wingster55]

I'm gonna hate myself...but: Daddy Diggle?

Or: Arrow Cave Yoda

[dtissagirl]

Anyone else think the title of this thread should be updated? He is not a Bodyguard anymore and much more than a Sidekick. 

 

Seconded!

[Happy Harpy]

Jon Diggle: BrotherHood

Jon Diggle: First Partner in Not-Crime

Jon Diggle: Bad Ass, Good Advice

Jon Diggle: Not The Black Driver

Jon Diggle: Mask What Mask?

Jon Diggle: I Approve of this Thread

 

I love Diggle. And yes, he's no sidekick, it's canon!

[dtissagirl]

John Diggle: JOHN DIGGLE.

[wonderwall]

John Diggle: Better than you

 

 

But I do love John Diggle: Brother-in-arms :D YES. 

[kismet]

John Diggle - Badass Brother-in-ARMS

[wingster55]

Could we just call it: DIGGLE! ?

[wonderwall]

But it has to match the other character thread titles! :p 

 

John Diggle: Buffest arms in all the land

[TrueMyth]

Dig that Diggle!

 

No, really, "Brother in Arms."  Amazing, gorgeous, badass arms.

[Delphi]

"John Diggle: Friends Call me Dig"?

[Nostariel]

John Diggle: Two Guns and The Truth

I love this, but really any reference to his outstanding arms ( those guns!) will make me happy.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Nostariel

[statsgirl]

John Diggle: Brother-in-Arms

This is my favourite because it works on two levels -- the obvious about his arms, and the metaphor of fighting alongside Oliver.

[frenchtoast]

Hey folks! It's a holiday weekend for the Toast family, but I'll put together a poll (and figure out how to make one and hopefully not break the internet) next week. So keep posting suggestions!

 

6/22: ETA--Polls up! Have fun voting!

[BkWurm1]

John Diggle: Brother-in-Arms

 

Like this one a lot, but maybe expand on it so as not to dismiss the rest of who he is.

 

 John Diggle:  Husband, Father, Brother-in-Arms

 

or maybe something very simple like

 

John Diggle:  Say My Name. 

 

That one mostly because people including me keep trying to figure out who he is going to be when really he doesn't need to be anyone but his own badass self.  On that note I also offer:

 

John Diggle:  His Own Badass Self

Edited to add, I just realized that there is already a poll up if you go to the top of the page.  I voted for Brother in arms out of the choices available. 

Edited June 24, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wingster55]

I preferred: John Diggle: Father, Husband, Friend, Absolute Badass

[Morrigan2575]

Two Guns and the Truth...perfect title (applies to arms and weapons)

[wingster55]

^ Actually I was disappointed in his advice this year...it kinda sucked. 

[BkWurm1]

I preferred: John Diggle: Father, Husband, Friend, Absolute Badass

Hmm, how about ...John Diggle:  Husband, Father, Badass Brother in Arms. 

 

I could really get behind that version. 

Edited June 24, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Chaser]

Two Guns and the Truth...perfect title (applies to arms and weapons)

Weapons/Arms/Yooodaaa

[WaitandHope]

wingster, It's true that his advice did suck this year.  I've chosen to edit a lot of this from my mind because I just love the character and actor so much and his advice in previous years had been spot on.  His advice to Oliver to not tell Thea the truth: wrong.  His advice to Felicity about stopping her own social life to coddle Oliver: cringe-inducing.  He also advised Oliver to basically give up on Roy: really terrible.   Why the hell was he ever down with Oliver going to NP the first time; that never made any sense.  "Oh, you're going on a quasi-suicide mission to feed your ego.  Say no more, I'll go too!" 

 

These are just off the top of my head...he fell off on the Yoda job this year.  I'm just going to blame this on the writers and move on.  One of you wise individuals on this board or another reviewer have observed that while Oliver is the hero - Felicity is "us" and Diggle is the "writers."  If so, considering all the writing fails this year, it would make sense that his advice would tend to suck.   Alas, such is my love of DR and Diggle, I can just move on.  This is why I could never be a critic.  I just have too many blind spots. 

[wingster55]

He's the writers? I always viewed him as the audience stand in. From the pilot.

And it's not that I (and you) think that..it's that he was way off base. Let Roy go? Opposite of what he said last season IIRC. Tell Thea and you'll lose her? That didn't happen.

[BkWurm1]

I gave a lot of Diggle's bad advice a pass this season because it didn't mesh with the character.  We know without some forced plot reason Diggle wouldn't have had Oliver just give up on Roy.  It's the opposite of who Diggle is and all his previous and since actions have spelled that out to me.  It was clearly OOC, but that was a lot of the writing last season. 

[frenchtoast]

The final votes have been tallied, and the winner is: John Diggle: Brother-In-Arms with 21 votes. The second place, with 11 votes, was John Diggle: Two Guns and the Truth. 

 

Thanks everyone for voting!

[dtissagirl]

In the sage words of Buffy Summers: those are good arms to have.

[kismet]

From social media thread AyChihuahua said on 8/13 9:38 am

 

Man I love David Ramsey.  That Stardust guy better hope DR doesn't tag in, bc DR kickboxes.  From an interview awhile back, he kickboxes so well that SA won't kickbox/spar with him anymore.

Now this is something that needs to be shown on the show!!! Forget the silly helmet... Someone in the stunt department needs to get some kickboxing stunts pronto for JD. Hire up some stunt people that can take on DR's hidden talent. Cmon, don't leave us in the dark, its about time Dig started really kicking some ass.

[EmilyBettFan]

Yup he is being sidelined by insta suits. Ridiculous. I mean look at him. Who would want a twiggy thing out there fighting when he can be taking care of business.

Before anyone says I'm body shaming I'm talking about the way the characters are portrayed. Laurel or KC doesn't isn't being portrayed as strong. David Ramsey portrays Diggle as a strong guy. The fact that there is so little of him fighting hand to hand is horrible.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm okay with teeny-tiny women portraying superheros when either their characters have powers so that size does not matter (Buffy, various X-Men), or the actresses portraying them are legit badasses, so they can do some of their own stunts and they look intimidating in non-stunt scenes (Maggie Q as Nikita, she's a real martial artist, worked with Jackie Chan, and was a college athlete). KC just doesn't have that. It's not body-shaming, bc I'd love to have her figure, but her figure is not believable as a serious physical threat.

[lemotomato]

Diggle was given ties to other agencies and that is about all. He was given ties to Deadshot who has appeared like twice. He isn't a major factor in the creation of anyone or anything. He didn't create Argus/HIVE, he hasn't been the major turning point for any hero or villain, he certainly isn't talked about that much bts promotion. He is the ONLY character that I think that no one really has a problem with which is great. He isn't a major factor for any drama and what drama they have finally given him looks like it will be resolved within 2 episodes.

Diggle was temporarily the leader of the Suicide Squad. That's definitely a major expansion from his original role. Deadshot was in 8 episodes, and Diggle was a major factor in how he-- a comic canon character!-- "died": Deadshot sacrificed himself in part so Diggle and Lyla could go back to their daughter. 

 

I can't explain why Diggle doesn't get promoted as much BTS, but I think his role on the show has expanded just as much as Felicity's has, and has been more widely accepted for whatever reason. ::cough::because he's a guy::cough:: No one complained about Diggle (and Andy) just happening to be in Oliver's flashbacks in 3x14, but boy oh boy was everyone upset about Felicity's cameo.

[Angel12d]

No one complained about Diggle (and Andy) just happening to be in Oliver's flashbacks in 3x14, but boy oh boy was everyone upset about Felicity's cameo.

 

They would complain if Diggle was the one sticking his tongue in Oliver's mouth. Haha. Sorry!