Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Lily-n11]

Posts about BS could go into this one:  Arrow Villains

[BkWurm1]

Black Siren - Who Are You?

1 minute ago, Lily-n11 said:

Posts about BS could go into this one:  Arrow Villains

That works.

[catrox14]

Black Siren: She's Literally Not Laurel Lance

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Black Siren: She's Literally Not Laurel Lance

Isn't she, though? Like, her name IS Laurel Lance, isn't it? She's just not THE Laurel Lance of this Earth.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Isn't she, though? Like, her name IS Laurel Lance, isn't it? She's just not THE Laurel Lance of this Earth.

No, she's not the Laurel Lance of this Earth. Sorry for not being super specific. It was also just me being funny. 

[LJones41]

I've always liked Laurel, whether she was Earth-1 or Earth-2.  I sometimes find myself wondering how many fans truly understood Earth-1 Laurel's emotional struggles between the sinking of the Queen's Gambit and her death.  I don't think Oliver ever did.  I think he had originally regarded her as some ideal woman that he could not live up to.  Which could explain his constant infidelity.  And after Tommy's death - especially after the words Laurel had spoken at the funeral - he seemed to emotionally distance himself from her.  This was especially the case when she was going through her addiction phase.  Perhaps he didn't regard her as "unworthy" of his time.  I cannot help but wonder if Oliver had some whore/Madonna attitude toward Laurel.  He didn't bother to support her when she decided to take up the mantle of the Black Canary.  Laurel had to look toward others to help her train.  An after her death, he resumed putting her back on a pedestal.  Laurel may have been a flawed personality, but Oliver was right about her in the end . . . she was too good for him.

[BkWurm1]

I think people saw Laurel’s emotional struggles but they did not generally agree with many of the choices she made due to her emotional struggles.   There are several big examples but to touch on something else you brought up, Oliver refusing to train her, I think him not being involved in her training was Oliver’s way of supporting her life, just not her decision to put on a mask.  He saw the c hoice as a bad way to handle her emotional issues.  He couldn’t encourage her to do something he was sure would get her killed.   In the end, she died in the field but not because of being a mask, but because DD wanted to make her father suffer (and because blot clots are sneaky SOBs).

Oliver backed her (eventually) once the decision was past tense and she was going to go out anyway.  He kept her on the team, backed her up, did train with her if some of the moves we saw were any indication and in the field trusted her to know what she was doing.   But when she died, even though DD would have come after her even if she had been just a lawyer, Oliver did a bit of revisionist history and suddenly Laurel died because she put on a mask and wasn’t able to handle herself as a vigilante.  Wasn’t equipped or prepared.   And he felt he knew that at the start and he couldn’t save her.  I think his guilt over that put her on the pedestal.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

And after Tommy's death - especially after the words Laurel had spoken at the funeral - he seemed to emotionally distance himself from her.  This was especially the case when she was going through her addiction phase.  Perhaps he didn't regard her as "unworthy" of his time.  I cannot help but wonder if Oliver had some whore/Madonna attitude toward Laurel.  

 

I saw the distance Oliver started placing between them as natural when they both decided to never go there romantically again.  I tend to think their initial relationship was a mess because he was cheating on her but i don't tend to think he cheated on her because he thought she was too good for him, but just because he was spoiled and didn't deny himself anything that caught his fancy.  The idea of her being ideal or perfect while he was off on his "island" is IMO another bit of Oliver doing revisionist history.  She became a symbol of home that he needed at first and then at the end when he was at his lowest with that drug Kovar gave him that was supposed to turn all the voices of his failures into a reason to end himself, that bit of revisionist history meant instead of her voice whispering in his ear that he deserved to die, "perfect" Laurel instead saw only the good in him and gave him the strength to fight off the effects of the drug.

Except then he went home and "perfect" Laurel didn't exist and instead, real Laurel was every bit as happy to tell him he deserved to be dead as the imaginary voices had been in his head.   And that's when I think Oliver spent a season trying to earn her love as proof of worthiness, trying to recapture that imaginary Laurel that had saved him.

But they both fell into old patterns and toxic behavior.  Oliver betrayed the trust of Tommy and Laurel was seduced by old dreams over the reality of the love she'd found with Tommy.  And I think they both would have regretted it with or without Tommy dying, but his death tainted everything even more.   

So I don't think it was that he had a Madonna/Saint complex with Laurel.  The distance was about their individual guilt and regret and IMO that they really weren't friends.  They'd been in a relationship and any "friendship" in season one was more of a precourtship than a true friendship.  So when they both realized they were not getting together all that was left was friendship and they'd never developed that before.  And it was rocky and got to a point where he realized that it was unhealthy to keep running after her and trying to save her as a way to earn forgiveness.  It was only after they started from scratch that a friendship slowly started, but soooo slowly that I think they only had just started to be actual friends shortly before she died.  And even that was not yet a super comfortable friendship.  (And part of that is because hey, turns out Laurel harbored hopes for more than friendship)

[statsgirl]

I think Laurel's tragic flaw was that she loved the man she thought she should love, rather than the one who loved her.  And maybe that she couldn't change plans when they needed to be changed.

Pre-island Oliver was a pretty shallow person.  He knew that there was an expectation that he would step into his parents' life including marrying Laurel but as long as he could delay it, all the better. I don't think he loved Laurel because he wasn't capable of love other than possibly love for his little sister. He couldn't even love himself.

I think Oliver distanced himself from Laurel after Tommy died because he realized that he could never care for her the way Tommy had and it was unfair to Laurel to give her the impression that they could get back together again.  He didn't train her because he wanted to protect her and because her skill set was so low, he thought she would get hurt.

I don't think Laurel ever knew who Oliver post-island was.  Pre-island he was someone she could have molded into the man she wanted him to be, although I doubt either of them would have been happy.  But after his five years away, he was both too broken and too aware of who he really is to be the person she wanted, and the more she pushed, the more he distanced himself from her.

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

-- Craig brought up (again) the "Laurel redemption arc" and noted the conversation between her and Quentin in this episode and that she let Quentin go free, rather than kill him. Tatiana really doesn't want this to happen and hopes that any such Laurel redemption only happens right before her death.

I'm confused by all this talk about a redemption arc. I wonder if the character is played by anyone other than KC there would even be this discussion. In the same episode she "saved" Lance, she tossed Thea around and promised to put her in a coma. I mean, I guess after Deathstroke, who killed lots of people including Oliver's mom and decimated part of the city, got a handshake and a good bye from Oliver, people are thinking BS has a chance at redemption but at least with Slade, there was the (lame) Mirakuru excuse. What's BS' excuse? Cake?

[bethy]

And wasn't there the implication at least that letting Lance go was part of Caden James's evil plan anyway? I mean, he certainly didn't seem upset with her there at the end during the line-up of evil. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yup, that's what I got. That the "saving" was all part of an evil genius plan by CJ, not because BS suddenly had a conscience. 

[Morrigan2575]

That's been my take on it since it aired.

[Primal Slayer]

On 12/11/2017 at 0:54 PM, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm confused by all this talk about a redemption arc. I wonder if the character is played by anyone other than KC there would even be this discussion. In the same episode she "saved" Lance, she tossed Thea around and promised to put her in a coma. I mean, I guess after Deathstroke, who killed lots of people including Oliver's mom and decimated part of the city, got a handshake and a good bye from Oliver, people are thinking BS has a chance at redemption but at least with Slade, there was the (lame) Mirakuru excuse. What's BS' excuse? Cake?

It would be that way about any doppelganger we come across. Half the people wouldn't have that much emotional attachment or excitement to seeing E-X Felicity if it wasn't played by EBR. 

I, myself, don't think they will do a redemption arc since I think they look at it as not "shocking" enough. IF they did, maybe it is because of all of the tv shows I've watched where villains gets redeemed, it wouldn't be something that hard for me to swallow if they had her want to make up for her sins by helping out innocents. Understanding her backstory more would of course also help. 

Throwing people around and making threats is cookie cutter compared to the more serious things that she has done. Cake is not the sole reason why she turned into who she is today, it was something that helped her towards that path but she didnt turn psycho the day her dad died and started murdering people. Malcolms wife died and it turned him down a dark path and he was already a middle aged man. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[tangerine95]

I do think the reason people expect or fear a redemption arc is because it's KC.If it was a random actress I doubt the expectation for that would be so strong.But I also think people expect a join team arrow and become a hero redemption which I really don't believe will happen and that even if they try to redeem her it would be more of a Slade or Malcolm type thing where she's outside the team and not really considered redeemed but maybe helps them at some point because it serves her own interests at the time.I don't even see that happening even tho you never know with this show because they just put a lot of emphasis on her enjoyment in killing,like unnecessarily big focus on that multiple times and the crossovers kinda made it a point that doppelgangers shouldn't be viewed as the same as their E1 versions.It would be a lot to go from that to redemption on the account of a sob story that doesn't sound unusual or that different to what any other characters went through and managed not to become a psycho with no remorse towards killing innocents.

[statsgirl]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:06 PM, Primal Slayer said:

I, myself, don't think they will do a redemption arc since I think they look at it as not "shocking" enough...

Throwing people around and making threats is cookie cutter compared to the more serious things that she has done. Cake is not the sole reason why she turned into who she is today, it was something that helped her towards that path but she didnt turn psycho the day her dad died and started murdering people. Slades wife died and it turned him down a dark path and he was already a middle aged man. 

I think the "shocking" thing would be if she didn't have a redemption arc.  So many people are expecting it.

According to the Arrow wikia, Slade's wife didn't die, she left him because he was already down the dark path.

Quote

While he continued eating it Slade claimed to go to the bathroom, while he was really going to find "Darryl", who infact was a secret agent named Sen Ming and Slade had been assigned to interrogate him. He questioned him over the location of Yao Fei Gulong and was told he is in Purgatory. Sen Ming then pulled a knife, so Slade killed him. Not long after, Slade and Joe left Milford Sound to return home.[4]

Six months later, Adeline gave birth to a second son, Grant, however the boy's existence was kept secret from Slade, as she didn't want him to be a part of the murderous secret agent world.[5]

I hope there's a good explanation for why Black Siren is the way she is.

[Primal Slayer]

43 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think the "shocking" thing would be if she didn't have a redemption arc.  So many people are expecting it.

According to the Arrow wikia, Slade's wife didn't die, she left him because he was already down the dark path.

I hope there's a good explanation for why Black Siren is the way she is.

Yeah, that's basically what I meant.

I meant Malcolm, not Slade oops!

[BkWurm1]

Bringing this over from the Arrow Stars in other roles since I wanted to talk more about KC's prorformance choices in Arrow. 

11 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

I don't think Stephen deserves all the blame. At least in Laurel/Oliver's case. I don't really think Katie put much of an effort in either. They were both terrible together. Katie would go from super aggressive hate his guts in scenes where Stephen played Oliver as apologetic and sympathetic; to romantic and I want bang him at times which was either inappropriate to the place  both Laurel and Olivers characters were in time or was not reciprocated by Stephen's performance.

In season one she didn't play Laurel as nuance or conflicted, which might have made Laurel and Olivers complicated relationship more engaging. She was either straight anger, or straight romantic heroine, which only led to the audience having whiplash. 

 

Both of them didnt click as actors and subsequently characters. It takes two to tango, and while Emily and Stephen seem to treat their scenes as genuine partnership it seems Katie and Stephen did not, or at least, not consistently. 

7

 

23 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

 

I thought this clip of KC's movie had a great example of lack of nuance.  She says the line: "I am not going to spend another 10 years waiting for a shot, this is my shot!"  And she sounds just pissed at whoever she is talking to.  No I don't know the context so her character might really be only pissed at this person but given the line is about so much more than just whatever the other person has done, I couldn't help think that it would have come off so much more powerfully if she wasn't just raging but also expressed the pathos of fear and longing for her shot not to mention the weariness of waiting so long and probably a hundred previous moments where she had missed what she thought then too were going to be her shot. 

But there is no layering in the line reading.  Only anger.  And I feel this is exactly where KC went wrong with Laurel in the first year of Arrow.  She's like the fairies in Peter Pan who can only feel one emotion at a time, usually turned up to 11.  There were so many lines even in that first pilot episode where yes, Laurel should have been angry but she also should have been super conflicted since she'd loved him and we were supposed to buy that she still probably loved him.  We needed something from her performance so that when at the end of the episode she goes and offers Oliver a shoulder to lean on, it didn't come out of nowhere from the same woman that openly wished he was still rotting in hell.   

[tv echo]

Heh... 16Personalites included Laurel Lance (Arrow) as one of its examples of as an ENFJ Personality ("Protagonist")...
 
https://www.16personalities.com/enfj-personality

Edited February 22, 2018 by tv echo

[KenyaJ]

12 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Are you sure you want a well thought out piece on BS =P

Since I've never cared about any version of Laurel, the answer is no. But because they put such a lack of effort into the character, it makes me that much more annoyed that she's taking up airtime that could be put to better uses. She doesn't serve a necessary function on the show so I wish she and all the other inconsequential characters would go away.

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

If I was a writer, BS pretending to be a lawyer would not be fun. The all around dumb of it would drive me crazy. I would much rather write her struggling at some retail job, ducking reporters, driving herself generally crazy. 

This makes me wonder why Laurel even wanted to pretend to be the DA in the first place. I guess we're not going to find out, if they have no intention of addressing her ability to do the job.

[Primal Slayer]

It could definitely be a fun storyline/episode, thats for sure. Since they probably wont fill in the blanks for us I have to assume that for some reason someone approached her to take up the job again and took it to try to make an earnest living. Maybe she relies on interns/fellow co-workers to do the major hand lifting.

[Featherhat]

6 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

Since I've never cared about any version of Laurel, the answer is no. But because they put such a lack of effort into the character, it makes me that much more annoyed that she's taking up airtime that could be put to better uses. She doesn't serve a necessary function on the show so I wish she and all the other inconsequential characters would go away.

That's about where I am. They give her the bare minimum storyline to have KC on the show but it often makes no sense. Pairing her up with Dinah makes sense as the two meta screamers but not in terms of these characters and they aren't giving much depth to that story so far either. It would be more amusing/interesting to see BS try but fail at being a DA in the few minutes allotted to her or more about E1 vs E2 or Quentins rather an once again insta!everything. In S3 I took that as a sign they wanted/needed her as BC but didn't really want to spend a huge amount of time on it so they brought in Nyssa's "two weeks with me will make you a super fighter" shtick.  

[VCRTracking]

Sara Lance is the best version of Black Canary and I'm cool with that.

I've posted before that they made a huge mistake basically making Arrow's version of Laurel Lance  Rachel Dawes from Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight movies. They thought they could somehow evolve her into the Black Canary just as I'm sure they thought they could eventually turn Oliver from the more extreme Batman vigilante in the beginning  to the snarky, left-wing Green Arrow in the comics. Those plans went out the window when they cast Stephen Amell. Rachel Dawes is the worst characters ever that two actresses couldn't make appealing and her only purpose was to die, or as "fridged". Now they're trying to course correct by bring in Black Siren, from another Earth and making her Ollie's Selina Kyle/Catwoman and a redemption arc.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Sara Lance is the best version of Black Canary and I'm cool with that.

I've posted before that they made a huge mistake basically making Arrow's version of Laurel Lance  Rachel Dawes from Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight movies. They thought they could somehow evolve her into the Black Canary just as I'm sure they thought they could eventually turn Oliver from the more extreme Batman vigilante in the beginning  to the snarky, left-wing Green Arrow in the comics. Those plans went out the window when they cast Stephen Amell. Rachel Dawes is the worst characters ever that two actresses couldn't make appealing and her only purpose was to die, or as "fridged". Now they're trying to course correct by bring in Black Siren, from another Earth and making her Ollie's Selina Kyle/Catwoman and a redemption arc.

I disagree that BS is in the Selina Kyle role.  From just the movie angle it fails since Bats kind of liked her from the start which is why her betrayal hurt.  Oliver sees BS for who she is and still now would be fine if she dropped dead. And then there's the matter of his wife.  He already has who he'd want to run away with.  Who he'd already chosen over the Rachel Dawes character before she died.  Felicity breaks the pattern and that's only part of what makes her great.

Edited December 17, 2018 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Now they're trying to course correct by bring in Black Siren, from another Earth and making her Ollie's Selina Kyle/Catwoman and a redemption arc

I don’t see any parallels between BS and Catwoman because IMO, the show has emphasized several times that the motivation for BS’s redemption is not tied directly to Oliver. She didn’t help until Felicity, his wife, asked her to, and even then, her goal was primarily to catch and punish Diaz. She outright told Oliver in 706 that she didn’t do what she did in that episode for him, she did it for herself. And in 708 when he thanked her for her part in his release, she gave the credit to Felicity. The show even spent all of 707 showing Oliver fight his way through prison and save lives so his freedom wasn’t just tied to the deal BS made.

[VCRTracking]

31 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I don’t see any parallels between BS and Catwoman because IMO, the show has emphasized several times that the motivation for BS’s redemption is not tied directly to Oliver. She didn’t help until Felicity, his wife, asked her to, and even then, her goal was primarily to catch and punish Diaz. She outright told Oliver in 706 that she didn’t do what she did in that episode for him, she did it for herself. And in 708 when he thanked her for her part in his release, she gave the credit to Felicity. The show even spent all of 707 showing Oliver fight his way through prison and save lives so his freedom wasn’t just tied to the deal BS made.

I'm not saying she did it for Oliver, just that she has a redemption arc.

[lemotomato]

20 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm not saying she did it for Oliver, just that she has a redemption arc.

I must have misread this part. Oops. 

Quote

Now they're trying to course correct by bring in Black Siren, from another Earth and making her Ollie's Selina Kyle/Catwoman and a redemption arc

[VCRTracking]

Alright I shouldn't have said "Ollie's Catwoman" and said the Arrow version of Catwoman instead. She's still a villain trying to reform.

The writers just like the drama of having Laurel's doppelganger around but I personally would have preferred to see another version of Moira again. Now that was a Queen!

Edited December 18, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Chaser]

I’ve been rewatching some random episodes the past couple of days. I decided to finally watch Midnight City and Canaries. It didn’t make sense at the time but it’s somehow even more nonsensical. From recaps I knew about the rapid development in fighting skills and Diggle sitting out, but I didn’t get how truly sloppy everything Sara related was. So was she putting on the mask because it’s what Sara would do if Oliver died? I don’t get how they can make a big thing about how she’s not Sara but end the arc with her becoming Sara. How does that work? 

I also rewatched Reversal, I can’t believe S6 Siren is S7 Siren. 

[Primal Slayer]

MG wrote S6a Siren as just a ruthless henchwoman before giving her more of a personality in S6b which I feel is petty close to S7 Siren. 

[scarynikki12]

10 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

From what i remember her dad was long dead, but she still had a sister and a niece. 

Bringing this here since my dissertation answer isn't Flash focused. Disclaimer: I know the real reason for all of these discrepancies is that the writing staff decided to make these changes based on where the character was supposed to go. I'm keeping my focus strictly on the story.

Black Siren's backstory has changed so often that I don't know that we can take anything she says as truth. Logically, yes, she should have parents who look like Dinah and Quentin and a sister who looks like Sara because they're the doppelgangers of the Earth Prime Lances. Generally Earth 2 tends to match Earth Prime in terms of the faces and names of the doppelgangers but with different personalities and outcomes. Robert survived the island and became Green Arrow/Hood while Oliver died, Thea died of a drug overdose, Tommy became the Dark Archer, Dinah and Rene were bad guys on purpose, Black Siren became an evil henchlady, Snart was a good man who became mayor, Malcolm was a coward, Chase became the second Green Arrow/Hood, Joe hates Barry, Iris is a cop, Firestorm, Cisco, and Caitlin were all evil, and so on. We saw on Earth X that Siren-X's father was Quentin's doppelganger and he proudly revealed that he'd killed Sara's Earth X doppelganger, so that plus what we've seen on Earth 2 does lend itself to assuming that the E2 Lances are the doubles of the Earth Prime ones.

That much I think is true. That's where it ends for me. We started getting backstory when Black Siren made the move to Arrow from Flash. First we're led to believe that she went evil because her Oliver died on the island. Ok, that can work if we look at both Earths as running parallel to one another in general before a specific event or choice occurs to make the doubles different from each other. Earth Prime Laurel was angry and grieved the loss of her boyfriend and sister but chose to continue her life. Not a stretch that her E2 double* would make different choices in light of the same event. Straightforward and fits with what we'd already seen on Earth 2.

Then we learn that she went evil because her father died buying her a birthday cake when she was a kid. Ok...then why tell everyone that it was because her boyfriend died and stayed dead? Are we to assume that E2 Oliver was also evil and they went around being evil together before he died and that just exacerbated her criminal impulses? The way the E2 Queens and Tommy reacted to Oliver in the most recent episode of Arrow suggests otherwise. Did she keep her villainy a secret while they were together? If her telling the story about her father's death was supposed to be an indication that she was opening up and revealing her true self then why not clarify that what she'd already said was her reason for being evil wasn't the whole story? Both times the story was told in a situation where it was to her advantage to make the other characters feel bad for her (and therefore not kill her). It would be far more in character for her to be trying to manipulate Quentin or Team Arrow and the truth be something like E2 Quentin was a hitman who got killed coming home from a job and then his daughter followed in his footsteps with the added bonus of having powers.

It does seem like we got some confirmation of this version with the glimpse of her killing the man who killed Quentin while she was hunting what turned out to be his Earth Prime double. She killed this man, and was ready to kill his double, yet all we get is the flashback to her killing the E2 one. We don't see any flashes to a little girl waiting for her dad when the phone rings, or at a grave, throwing away a birthday cake, or anything that would support what she's said. If her whole villain identity rested on the rage and grief she felt when her father died then surely she'd have had a reaction when she met his double right? Yet she wasn't bothered about the times she or another villain almost killed him. She didn't even seem that upset when he died. I don't think she should have been, because Q was hella creepy his whole last season, but we were told that she mourned him and tried to make herself into what he wanted/thought she could be (Laurel) to honor his memory so you'd think there'd be some emotion other than wanting revenge against Diaz (I still think the better story is that she was so creeped out that she wanted to kill Quentin herself when she got the chance and was angry that Diaz took that away from her) and staring at his grave while Sara gave her "it's a journey" speech. Oliver showed more emotion just meeting E2 Moira and Tommy.

I would also add in the entirety of what we saw from her and about her in the premiere. Oliver is pretending to be his double back from the dead after a decade and exactly no one asks him if he's going to see his girlfriend? Even if they believed she'd moved on with her life, surely they'd want to see each other even if they weren't going to revisit the relationship? After all they were together when the Gambit went down so a reunion wouldn't be unusual. Siren didn't claim that her Oliver died while on a sex cruise or that he cheated on her like the Earth Prime version so it's not like she was supposed to be harboring mixed feelings about his return. Like I said in the episode thread the lack of Moira or Tommy calling Siren to come see a back from the dead Oliver or suggesting that he call her makes me doubt that they were ever together. Yes, we never saw Moira or Tommy suggest calling Laurel in the pilot but that's cause they knew he'd gone on a sex cruise with her sister. Calling her would be cruel and Tommy even comments on Oliver wanting to see her as a bad idea. Based on the premiere I think it'd be more likely that their situation was like their Earth X doubles where Nazi Oliver was all focused on Kara X while Siren X pined for him.

One of the reaction articles points out that Siren also claimed to be super close with E2 Thea but, now that we know she died on her 18th birthday, that doesn't quite work. It's not impossible of course, because if Siren and E2 Oliver really were together then she may have spent a lot of time at the Queen mansion and gotten to know Thea well. But the Thea she'd have been close to would have been 12/13 or younger. Plenty of college aged people can get along with, and like, kids and pre-teens but I'd think both ages would feel weird at calling the other a friend. Assuming all of the doubles are the same age, Siren's about ten years older than E2 Thea. I can't see them being friends before Thea's death. The Earth Prime versions were more believable because they knew each other as an effect of Laurel's relationship with Oliver pre-Gambit but they became friendly as adults after Thea's arrest on her birthday. Like I said, not impossible but doesn't really work. Also, when Siren claimed to be close to Thea she left out her death. Either she didn't know (due to her henchlady duties taking up her time and that would point to them not being close) or she was lying. The lying is believable but only if she was planning to reveal the truth when it would be to her advantage. She never did so I honestly don't know if she knew.

Finally, Siren didn't look at all concerned about the status of her mother, sister, or niece when she saw her world getting destroyed. As far as she's told us they're still alive yet no reference to them at all. Oliver looked like he would have grabbed the Moira and Tommy doubles to bring to Earth Prime if they hadn't died first yet Siren's only concern was getting through the portal. The events of the episode didn't lend themselves to spending any real time learning how she's turned her life around and started to atone for her crimes, and that may come in another episode, but a line could have been included in the "this is MY bunker" dialogue that mentioned being on good terms with E2 Dinah, E2 Sara, and Sara Jr. They wanted her to know about Felicity's pregnancy and had enough sense to give her a line about figuring it out herself (since it wouldn't be believable that Oliver would tell her and Felicity may have declared her redeemed but I don't think she trusted her enough to tell her about Mia when more "trustworthy" members of the team like Dinah and Rene were kept in the dark) because she saw the same signs in her sister years ago yet nothing when Oliver showed up or when her world was being destroyed. Most other shows would have had the character start freaking out about "I have to get my mom! Sara! Sara Jr!" while Oliver strong arms her into the portal knowing that they can't be saved and she'll die herself if he doesn't bring her along. Again, they may have left dealing with her family for another episode but it just makes me think that she has no relationship with them at all which goes against what she implied when she noticed Felicity's pregnancy.

I'm fully aware that this is just me and they were likely trying to craft the details of her backstory in a way where we were meant to see all of it as true: that E2 Quentin died leading her down the path to evil, losing her boyfriend just cemented her making bad choices, she was also close friends with his little sister during the time they were together, and Moira or Tommy would have gotten around to suggesting Oliver give her a call if he'd stayed longer. I just don't buy it.

*By the way, early in season six there was a line, I think when she was fighting Dinah, where Black Siren said something about her name being Dinah as well. I want to say it was something like "that's my name". I'd really like some clarification on what she actually goes by. If she's always been Dinah on Earth 2 then she should want to go by that now that she's not pretending to be Laurel. If she wants to go by Laurel as some kind of symbol for no longer being evil then she needs to say that. Otherwise she's a character without a name.

[Featherhat]

Thanks for that in depth analysis.

I think all her backstory could potentially be true but she puts more emphasis on different parts depending on who she's talking to. The writers need her to connect to Oliver, she went evil when Oliver died. She has Quentin as her primary scene partner for all of season 6 and Oliver doesn't acknowledge she exists? She has a sad story about a birthday cake. I don't think either are particularly good excuses for going evil or the things she has done. That was still a very half assed redemption. I prefer it when Sara is still struggling over what she's done. We saw the awful circumstances that lead up to that for both her and Oliver and neither ever make excuses about their actions. 

With the name Dinah I think it's a couple of connected things. They gave it to DD maybe thinking BS wouldn't be back long term so they needed a way for Tinah to be accepted as BC without any effort. Because apparently Sara Lance is so unacceptable as a name and they don't want two characters with the same name. Then the fact that the writers and KC seem to be treating her as a snarkier version of E1 Laurel who randomly has awesome fighting skills they don't even need to insta!Canary this time. You should not get confused if you are playing or writing an evil/antagonistic version of a dead character who has shown no signs (yet!) of coming back to life and yet there are quotes about this from both KC and the writers and crew. 

I think with the E2 situation in the ep, a) they don't really have any interest (before the spin off) in writing about her family situation, she's there to add dynamic to Oliver's big emotional journey with Moira and Tommy and they didn't want to get into the whole Lauriver thing again, especially now they're teaming up and Felicity isn't there. Like they had Chase say "Pretty Bird" instead of Oliver even doing it sarcastically. 

I assume Siren's backstory will change again if the spin off gets picked up and they need to focus on the predominantly female team and how she interacts with Mia and Dinah. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Featherhat

[BkWurm1]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:47 AM, tv echo said:

This was retweeted by the official CW Arrow twitter account...

I only now realized KC gave up the no dark make up under the mask look.  Lol.  No wonder i thought she looked better this season

[Chaser]

IIRC, during SDCC she was asked about her input with the costume and she said her hair. Lol I got the impression this new design was out of her hands.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Chaser

[tv echo]

47 minutes ago, Chaser said:

IIRC, during SDCC she was asked about her input with the costume and she said her hair. Lol I got the impression this new design was out of her hands.

-- On her new costume, KC: "I mean, I was like, 'this is dope, uh, why didn't we do this, like, many seasons ago?' Also, 'can I keep my hair short?' And yes, they're letting me." (SDCC, Jul. 20, 2019: Aug. 12, 2019 GiveMeMyRemoteTV video of KC interview, page 3 of Spoilers thread and page 12 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread)

-- KC: "I also have a new costume, which I don't know if you've seen. It's really good. So that's awesome. And they're letting me keep my hair short, which I also do love because it's fresh, right? It keeps things fresh." (SDCC, Jul. 20, 2019: Jul. 21, 2019 Rama's Screen video of KC and JH interviews, page 1 of Spoilers thread and page 5 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread)

-- On her favorite costume, KC: "My favorite costume is definitely by far this new costume. It really truly feels like the Black Canary. It feels like Laurel Lance. It feels almost truer to the comic book than we’ve seen, and I think that’s really cool. It’s been really, yeah, it’s been really incredible. I wish I had it sooner. So this costume is definitely by far my favorite, and I think it’ll be the fan favorite as well. And I actually did not have input on this one, but it’s still really empowering and badass to wear, and I can certainly appreciate all of the time that went into it in terms of designing it and putting it together. It’s incredible." (Oct. 13, 2019 Hypable article, page 5 of Spoilers thread and page 21 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread)

Edited November 10, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I have been piecing together Earth-2 Laurel's backstory, based solely on what she said on Arrow* - of course, we don't know if she was lying or telling the truth - I no longer have any use for this information, so... enjoy! 

(* I stopped watching The Flash after its first season, so I don't know if that show provided additional BS back story.)

From 510 (Who Are You?):
Oliver: "Your history on Earth-2 would suggest you had other reasons."
E2 Laurel: "You don't trust me?"
Oliver: "Can you blame me?"
E2 Laurel: "No, because on my world, you've been dead for 10 years now. I moved to Central City for a fresh start. That's where this happened. And from then, it was just one bad choice after another. And I guess once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out. And now I am trapped in a parallel dimension, telling my sob story to... the doppelganger of the man that - that I loved."

From 609 (Irreconciliable Differences):
Quentin: "Heh. You're probably right. You're probably right. Listen. When you, uh - when you look at me, do you see your own father at all?"
E2 Laurel: "No. Because my father died when I was 13."
Quentin: "What happened?"
E2 Laurel: "It was my 13th birthday, and he left to go get my birthday cake, like he did every year, and then the phone rang. There was an accident. A drunk driver ran through a red light. Head-on collision."
Quentin: "I'm sorry. I used to pick up Laurel's cake, too. Yellow with chocolate frosting. From her favorite bakery."
E2 Laurel: "Carly's."
Quentin: "Sorry you didn't get to know your father. I guess you're stuck knowing me."

From 617 (Brothers In Arms):
E2 Laurel: "How do you expect me to be like Laurel when you won't let me act like her?"
Quentin: "You want to act like Laurel? Why don't you do something good, huh? Get a job. Help this city."
E2 Laurel: "Never had a real job in my whole life. I don't even think I know how to write a resume."
Quentin: "You don't need to write a resume. You're Laurel Lance, remember?"
E2 Laurel: "How well did I do in law school?"
Quentin: "Wait here. (Leaves) Kept all of Laurel's old law books. (Returns with books) Look at that. Maybe you could start right here."
E2 Laurel: "You want to home law-school me?"
Quentin: "Beats sitting around on the couch, doesn't it? I mean, who knows? You could give it a shot. You might just enjoy doing something good for a change."

From 704 (Level Two):
E2 Laurel: “Hey. I used to be just like you.”
Felicity: “Well, that I find hard to believe.”
E2 Laurel: “On my Earth, I loved my father and my Ollie, but they were taken away from me because they were murdered. It’s when you lose the people who matter most, once you get through the grief, you get angry. You want revenge, and I took it. But the darkness, it swallows you the more you feed it. And digging yourself back out to the light, it’s… it’s really hard. In fact, I wish someone would’ve warned me before I got blood all over my hands the first time. Maybe that way, I would’ve been more like your Laurel.”

From 706 (Due Process):
E2 Laurel (to Oliver): "You know, the Ollie I knew, he had a hard time taking responsibility for his failures too."

From 711 (Past Sins):
E2 Laurel (flashback): "Hello, Brett."
E2 Brett Collins (flashback): "Who the hell are you?"
E2 Laurel (flashback): "I discovered a new talent. I thought that you should be the first to hear it." (Sonic screams at him)
*  *  *
Felicity: "Let me break this down for you in words that I think that you're going to be able to understand. You are the D.A. You cannot be seen attacking randos outside of a bar!"
E2 Laurel: "Brett Collins isn't a rando. He's supposed to be dead."
Felicity: "What does that mean? What are you talking about?!"
E2 Laurel (sighing): "Collins is the drunk driver who killed my father, okay? I was 13. And I spent so many years just dreaming of the ways that I was gonna make him pay. And you know what? I did. When I got my cry, I tracked him down, and I killed him. Or at least I thought I had killed him, but, apparently, he - he's still alive and and stalking me on another Earth. Here. (Hands over the threatening note) What? What?"
Felicity: "It's - you haven't had a problem talking about the dozens of other people that you have killed. Um, so why - oh, why keep this one a secret? If someone had killed my dad, I would want revenge, too."
E2 Laurel: "Collins - he caused the accident that killed my father, but he wasn't the reason my father died. He never should've been on the road that day. He was working a lot, which... I hated. But I knew on my birthday that we would be able to celebrate, only he showed up without my cake, and I threw a tantrum. So he went back out. That's when Collins drove him off the road. And do you know the last words that I said to my father? The last thing that I said to him was 'I hate you.' My dad died because of me."
*  *  *
Dinah: "A stalker from a different Earth. Of course. Why wouldn't there be? (E2 Laurel gets up to leave) Oh. I hope you're not leaving, because I have some good news. We have Brett Collins in custody. And after what you just told me, I'm gonna make sure he stays there for a very long time."
E2 Laurel: "But how can you hold him for crimes he committed on another Earth?"
Dinah: "This scumbag is, unfortunately, our Earth's problem. Beat cop picked him up for public intoxication, and it looks like he has a history of stalking and anti-vigilante violence."
Felicity: "Well, that makes sense. I mean, he would've seen your interview, and you are the former Black Canary, so... (Her cell phone chimes)  And the karma gods must really be on your side, because Cisco just texted that Brett Collins from your Earth died five years ago on his porch from unknown causes."
E2 Laurel: "So five minutes ago, I had two Brett problems, and now I have none."
Felicity: "None."
E2 Laurel: "Well, thank you. Thank you to the both of you."
Felicity: "It's not so bad having other people back you up, is it?"

From 717 (Inheritance):
Oliver: "Once upon a time, I actually shot Roy Harper and Barry Allen. It was to illustrate a point. My guess is that her point is she doesn't want to be stalked anymore."
E2 Laurel: "Or maybe sister has brother wrapped around her little finger. You know, the Oliver I knew, he had a blind spot for family, and I'm guessing you do, too."
Oliver: "It's called loyalty. I know that's a concept you don't totally understand."
E2 Laurel: "I have nothing to gain here. I am only trying to do what's right. Why can you not see that?"
Oliver: "There has to be more to this, and I will look into it, if you will promise to stay out of it."
E2 Laurel: "I already wish I would have. Good luck."

From 718 (Lost Canary):
(After E2 Laurel stopped Felicity from drinking champagne...)
E2 Laurel: "Yes, you are welcome."
Felicity: "Thank you."
E2 Laurel: "No sweat. Did it all the time when my sister was pregnant."
Felicity: "Oh, way to bury the lead. That's how you knew I was pregnant."

From 809 (Green Arrow & the Canaries):
E2 Laurel (over comms): "You know I dated your dad, right? Well, a version of him anyway."
Mia (over comms): "Gross."
E2 Laurel: "My Oliver also went down on the Gambit, also cheated with my sister."
Mia (over comms): "Please stop talking."
E2 Laurel (over comms): "People are who they are, Mia, no matter what timeline, universe, or Earth, and that's not your fault."
Mia (over comms): "Was that supposed to be some kind of pep talk?"
*  *  *
E2 Laurel: "Mia, I spent so much of my life choosing the easy path. And for me, that meant becoming Black Siren and destroying things and killing people. It's not a good look."

Edited January 24, 2020 by tv echo

[scarynikki12]

I’ve already ranted about the inconsistency of Black Siren’s backstory so, instead, I leave (general) you with this: 

[insomniadreams88]

Are these writers the best with continuity? No. But Laurel is the only character (any version) where I expect her to say something that contradicts something we’d previously learned. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

I've always liked Laurel, whether she was Earth-1 or Earth-2.  I sometimes find myself wondering how many fans truly understood Earth-1 Laurel's emotional struggles between the sinking of the Queen's Gambit and her death.  I don't think Oliver ever did.  I think he had originally regarded her as some ideal woman that he could not live up to.  Which could explain his constant infidelity. 

Most never bothered, the combination of Oliver being a male character and the show's lead led to him being woobified a lot. He is always the perpetual victim, even when in times he would be one in the wrong, he gets to mistreat  and disrespect people however he wants and is still the celebrated hero. Laurel 1 has been punished ever since she called  out a male lead who wrong her. She still forgave him quite quickly when she didnt need to and he didnt  really deserve it, yet she is the one who is Satan. 

People understanding and caring about female characters pain and emotional struggles, well rarely does that happen. They can be close to being an Angel on earth and they are still treated as Satan. The male characters can be murderers, rapists, cheaters, abusive... and they will be sympathized, defended and excused.  

Edited January 26, 2020 by CabotCove

[Featherhat]

I don't think that is entirely fair on this board people regularly call out Oliver for his dumbass and just plain wrong decisions and he's rarely woobie-fied. 

I think most people that are not fans of Laurel 100% agree that she had every right to have the fury of 1000 suns at Oliver when he first came home and never want to see his face ever again. 

The problems started coming when the writers wanted to have this and also wanted them to be falling back into love in the same episode for much of the first season. KC also did not play Laurel with any layers leading to full on "hate, love, hate, love" flip flopping every time they interacted. It was an extremely tough sell as an OTP love story and neither of their acting did anything to help sell it. She had a POV and a supporting cast to express where she was at to, it just wasn't believable that she could want to be with this guy. Oliver's stated goal is more believable "make this right to her, which is one of two reasons I've been allowed/able to survive." And even then it was clear he wanted a girl who didn't exist. Laurel both after and especially before wanted a guy who didn't exist either. It's kind of laughable that she always saw the hero under the playboy because nothing in S1 hinted at it, even when she was running around with the Hood. Oliver was able to manipulate her into convincing her Dad he wasn't the vigilante etc. Which yes, was an asshole move. It also didn't help her image that she was one of those berating him for being selfish with his friends and family when we KNEW he had just risked his life to save them and everyone else. Not her fault but didn't help.

This thread isn't 97 pages (and Felicity has 75) because people aren't interested in her character or female characters in general and it's not all "I hate Laurel" either. There's a lot of discussion about her motivations, backstory and character arc. It's worth noting Felicity isn't a push over at all in their working or romantic relationship and there are places on the net that hate this - especially because she's a non canon character to do this but cheer every time Laurel snarks at him. And yeah visa versa with the hypocrisy that comes with shipping preferences. And yes, Oliver gets some main character protection, especially when we actually see him go through hell. This is not specific to Oliver in the Arrowverse though or even male characters. If we switched to Sophie being the main POV character in Batwoman we'd have an entirely different view of her and her relationships with Kate and her husband. 

For me a lot of my frustration with the character have nothing to do with Oliver, shipping or disliking female characters. It's about becoming BC and how the writers went about that with Sara dead at her feet and Insta!canary and now Insta!Redemption, she the Queen of "we'll tell you because showing won't work." It felt like the writers just wanted to get Laurel to BC already so people would shut up about it. Laurel had an awful time of it pre pilot but that's the case with pretty much every Arrow character. There's not one happy backstory. And her "crucible" of addiction was rushed and frustrating because she never took responsibility for any of her poor decisions then or later. It didn't help that whilst this was going on I was also watching Sara (and Oliver) pay again and again for her total betrayal of her sister both in the flashbacks and in the present storyline body, mind and soul. She was partly broken and regretful, partly felt she was too much a monster to ever come back but was trying to do what she could.

That has also carried across to LOT where she continued to struggle with guilt, shame and bloodlust and *also* be an awesome, empathic leader in contrast to Siren's bullying, arrogance and hypocrisy to Mia in the GATC pilot. KC again chose to play all the high notes with no softer or regretful shading to her blowing up Mia's life or talking about her own backstory. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Featherhat

[apinknightmare]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I don't think that is entirely fair on this board people regularly call out Oliver for his dumbass and just plain wrong decisions and he's rarely woobie-fied. 

I was gonna say - Oliver gets called out here for being a dumbass all the time. From going to family dinner with Sara at Laurel's house in S2 (and whatever other dumb shit he did back then I can't remember). His idiocy in S3 working with Malcolm and how shitty it was to make his friends think they were all dying and he was responsible. His idiot lying in S4, his idiot relationship with a reporter who was investigating him in S5 and his insistence that she wouldn't expose them despite her telling his dumb face that she would. His going to jail without telling Felicity about it in S 6/7. There's probably more stuff too - if Oliver's woobified and his idiocy and bad behavior is excused, it certainly isn't on this board, LOL.

[tv echo]

2012 casting announcement for Laurel Lance...

Katie Cassidy Set As Female Lead In CW Pilot 'Arrow'
Nellie Andreeva   Feb. 15, 2012
https://deadline.com/2012/02/katie-cassidy-set-as-female-lead-in-cw-pilot-arrow-231444/

Gossip Girl, Melrose Place and Supernatural alumna Katie Cassidy is back at the CW as the female lead in the network’s pilot Arrow. The Warner Bros TV-produced project, a modern retelling of the story of DC Comics character Green Arrow, stars Stephen Amell as the vigilante superhero who fights crime using archery, martial arts and technology under his secret identity as Oliver Queen, a wealthy playboy and billionaire industrialist-turned-outspoken politician in Star City. Cassidy will play Laurel, a young legal clinic attorney who shares a romantic past with Oliver. (In the comics, the character, Dinah “Laurel” Lance, has a superhero alter ego, Black Canary.) In Arrow, Cassidy joins Amell and Susanna Thompson, who was cast yesterday as Oliver’s mother, Moira Queen. David Nutter is directing the pilot, written/executive produced by Andrew Kreisberg, Greg Berlanti and Marc Guggenheim. On the feature side, Cassidy, repped by CAA and Anonymous Content, was most recently seen in Monte Carlo.

 

[tv echo]

About KC's audition...

-- David Rapaport: “She is so reliable, she’s so beautiful, she’s so talented, she’s kind of everything that you want in an actor on a CW show... I read a ton of actors and my process is I pre-read a bunch of actors to narrow down the field to bring to producers, but there’s a small group of actors I will bring in project after project; I know them, I trust them, I know they’re going to perform, and it’s just a matter of finding them the right role. Katie is one of those people. She always brings something really interesting to the table; she’s fun to watch. She’s kind of electric. You can’t quite put your finger on it, but when she’s on screen, something magical happens and you can’t take your eyes off of her. And my dad really likes her. ... The Vampire Diaries was on the air already, so we were sold as a three-hander between Stephen, Katie Cassidy, and Colin Donnell — a tripod if you will. That’s how we cast it and then the posters came out and Stephen was shirtless. First of all, we never saw him without his shirt on; I knew he was a physical guy, but I’d never seen him do stunts or anything like that and all of a sudden in the pilot, he’s doing his own stunts. He became famous for being shirtless. The poster was him shirtless and none of the other actors were on the poster, and as talented and amazing as they were, it became clear the show was about ‘The Arrow,’ so that really changed the concept for us because initially I saw it as more of an ensemble and cast it that way.”
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/the-man-who-helped-build-the-cw

-- On whether she was aware of the comic books before taking the role or whether she had to go back and read up, KC: "I did because I wasn’t aware of the character. After I got the role, I went through and did a lot of reading and a lot of research."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/29/arrow-cw-stephen-amell_n_1684478.html

-- KC: “When I originally had auditioned for this part, I basically came up with a back story that was legitimate to the material that I was given—the pilot... Creating back story to make this person as authentic as possible, I did a little bit of research, but I also, at that point, didn’t consider the Black Canary because I didn’t know. When – if [she becomes Black Canary] is always still a question. You never know with these writers; they could do anything. I try not to think about that at this point because I think sometimes I can get in my own way if I over-think it. I think as far as the Black Canary goes, it will probably happen very organically. I know that Laurel is very strong, very tough. She comes from a middle class family; her father’s a cop; she knows how to fight. It will be something that happens organically, and it’s probably going to be pretty cool."
http://www.ksitetv.com/interviews-2/5-days-to-arrow-interview-with-katie-cassidy-of-the-cws-new-series/16803/

-- On whether getting her Arrow role was by audition or choice, KC: "Yeah, um, it definitely was - it was an audition.  I read the script - I was reading pilots that year and I read Arrow and, you know, the pilot - Laurel's character, it wasn't - she wasn't very big in the pilot. But I did some research, obviously the comic books, having Greg Berlanti being our producer and creator, and Andrew Kreisberg and Marc Guggenheim, and then Stephen Amell got cast, and you know, David Nutter was directing our pilot - the whole thing, you know, the success of all of them being attached to such an incredible script, and that whole world, you know - I just where it possibly could potentially go. And, um, I really wanted to do some action and knowing that Laurel Lance turns into the Black Canary, um, you know - that was a huge, huge thing for me. And, um, yeah... I think that just playing a comic book character and being a woman - you know, a modern day woman and kicking some ass is definitely what I - what I was attracted to, um, along with everything else." Mod: "So you were cast before Stephen?"  KC: "No, I was cast right after Stephen." Mod: "Directly right after Stephen?"  KC: "Yes, and I did actually audition."  She also said that SA was not part of the approval process, mentioning that he had not done much before Arrow.  She also said that she followed him on twitter before SA knew that she was the producers' choice, and thought he was "really hot".  Per KC, Stephen noticed that she had followed him on twitter and he went to the producers and said, "Katie Cassidy just followed me on twitter. Is she? Are you?" and they were like, "yeah... what do you think of that?" and Stephen was like, "I like that". 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da0xTFmuqkg

-- KC: "I had been on The CW for quite some time, uh, before that, working for them on Supernatural and Melrose Place and Gossip Girl, you know, and having done those things, I felt like, being part of The CW, I was a part of their family. So, when I read the script, um, my process was a little bit different because I had an established - I had a relationship with the creators and the producers. I knew them, they knew me quite well. So when I read the script, I immediately was, like, I'm not reading anything else, this is the one I want. That really stressed my manager and agent out, because you never really know if you end up being the - you know, being the one who's going to get it. I was just like, I don't want to read anything else. This is the one that I want to go for. So, they - I had a meeting with them and then basically, just a - like a screen test. And did it. I was extremely nervous, but did it anyhow. And ended up - yeah, I ended up finding out later that night that I was - I was the one who got the part." On whether she knew from the beginning that there would be "a transformation from Laurel the Lawyer to the Black Canary," KC: "Uh, yes. I did know that. They didn't tell me when, though. They just said, you know, this is what we have in store for you, what - where we see this character going. And, I really wanted to do action. I was really excited, obviously, once it happened. Um, but, you know, I - I like working out and, you know, I was looking forward to the transition. So, yes, they did pitch it to me. They just didn't tell me when it was going to happen. But I think it all happened the way it was supposed to happen."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJjYVn8piFc  

-- On what she thought when she first read Laurel, KC: "I have to play this part. And so I called my manager and I was like, 'I don't want to read any more scripts. This is it.' She's like, 'well, we don't have an offer and you might have to audition.' And I was like, 'I don't care. I'll audition. I don't want to read another script. I'm playing this character.' Uh-huh. And then when I saw they cast Stephen... game over. It's a no-brainer now." SA: "Do you know how I know - knew that you got the part?" KC: "No." SA: "You followed me on twitter... We had never met." KC: "Well, I mean, I figured I was going to get this job, so I'm going to set it up for myself. Put it out in the universe."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xE_zwkuorM

-- KC: "When I read the pilot before I auditioned... I'm all for strong women having their own story and they pitched it to me. I remember calling my agent after reading the pilot and said, ‘This is going to be a hit. I don't want to read any other scripts. I have to play this role. I was born to play this role. This is me.'"
https://www.eonline.com/news/1084920/the-final-season-katie-cassidy-remembers-the-first-time-she-put-on-her-arrow-costume  

Edited February 3, 2020 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

I remember how excited I was when I read that KC had been cast because I enjoyed her in MP and she legitimately deserved the "best thing about that ill conceived reboot" acclaim she got. I was also salty because Justin H hadn't been given the opportunity of a spin off and this, WH and PB made me interested in the show. 

I also forgot that she had to audition, even though she picked Arrow out of all the CW scripts that year, jut that there wasn't a chemistry test. I kind of think she created the backstory for the pilot and never really wavered from that, which isn't always ideal for network TV even if the story had gone as planned. 

[scarynikki12]

I considered keeping this in my relationships post but I think it's more about Laurel herself even with the relationship context.

Looking back at the previous seasons, I think she wanted to get back with Oliver since around mid season 1 but, in show, had to deal with various obstacles: first Oliver's season 1 girlfriends and dating Tommy, then guilt over Tommy's death, then her substance abuse, then Oliver dating Sara, then her desire for revenge after Sara's death, then Oliver's obvious feelings for Felicity and her own anger that Oliver wasn't on board with her being a vigilante, and then his actual relationship with Felicity. I think she was building towards getting back together between seasons 2 and 3 and would have made a move if Sara hadn't been killed. Her "you catch them and I cook them" line made clear that she saw them as full partners and she needed him to think that as well so getting back together would just be a logical extension of that. She also no doubt took Sara's "[Oliver] needs you" as an indication that Sara believed this as well since it happened shortly after that breakup. Then Sara died and that chance vanished. She probably assumed that Felicity would be just the next of Oliver's girlfriends but nothing more serious. He was no longer the guy who had a steady girlfriend but cheated with everything that moved but now a guy who dated one woman for a few weeks/months before breaking up. The former was humiliating while the latter just looks like a guy who is trying to find The One. And Laurel put up with the cheating because she believed they were each other's The One.

But she realized Felicity was different when Thea made that comment about wanting to see her hand in early season 5. Yes, they'd left town together and were saying 'I love you' but the Laurel who ignored the cheating wouldn't take that seriously. The Oliver she knew before the Gambit always came back to her and the Oliver she knew after was committed to his girlfriends only to suddenly break up. But then Thea's comment clues her into the fact that this relationship is different. This time Oliver was planning to propose and he'd told Thea about it. Hence Laurel's glare at Felicity and approaching her to ask about Thea's comment. When Felicity revealed that she didn't know anything about it (which, how??? Sweets, when you're in a relationship and someone asks to see your left hand it means they're expecting an engagement ring), that told Laurel that he hadn't done it yet as opposed to asking but not having a ring. There was nothing she could do at this point because Laurel's view of herself was that she was a good person. As badly as she wanted to get back with Oliver she knew trying to break him up with Felicity would only turn him against her so she sucked it up and chose to be happy for them when he did propose. If Oliver had been honest with Felicity about William and they'd never broken up I think Laurel would have continued to choose to be happy for them. And maybe she'd have finally learned to let those feelings to and move on. Instead the break up happened and she started laying the groundwork to make her move.