Arrow Villains: They Failed This City

[Whimsy]

Here is your thread to talk about the villains on Arrow!

[SleepDeprived]

Ooohh! New thread!

 

So, we're all agreed that Matt Nable's Ra's al Ghul was the crappiest big bad on this show ever, right? It's okay if it's just me. But, man, the writers wasted what could've been a great villain for S3. It's not all MN's fault because the writing for Ra's was so confusing and a total mess but his blase acting really didn't help any of it at all. It also doesn't help that I thought he looked a lot shorter than Nyssa and Oliver so I couldn't really feel any sense of foreboding or menace in their interactions. Maybe a little when he forced his daughter to marry the person he passed her over for as heir. Also, since I could spot his stunt double in almost every big fight he had, I just couldn't even believe he was really tough even though I know MN was a rugby player.

[Morrigan2575]

Damian Darhk and Neal M. are everything Malcolm and Ra's failed to be, IMO. I know people love Barrowman but he’s way to campy, IMO. Both Ra's and Matt N. just sucked in the role, I can't even be bothered to describe how wrong he was

[calliope1975]

Damian Darhk and Neal M. are everything Malcolm and Ra's failed to be, IMO. I know people love Barrowman but he’s way to campy, IMO. Both Ra's and Matt N. just sucked in the role, I can't even be bothered to describe how wrong he was

 

I'm sticking with my head canon that DD is real Ra's who allowed fake Ra's to take over the LOA so he could travel the world in snazzy suits. 

 

Man, fake Ra's sucked.

[kismet]

I enjoyed Ras for a few eps when he really seemed liked Old Man on the Mountain waxing poetic about dying & killing. He had a mellow been around forever, zen like surfer philosopher vibe that I could get behind. But the writing & stunt editing really failed him in a good portion of his episodes. Do I think he could have been better - Ah hells yeah, he could have been better. But he could have been worse. I shudder to think about it, but these writers could have taken it far worse.

 

But on to bigger and better villains... DD

 

What I love about 401 DD was his swagger & his ego were on full display and it was awesome! What I loved about 402, is DD introduced that he has standards and codes. He doesn't want messy attacks. Somehow, the thought him being so calculating and demanding, is really exciting. I think they are laying some good groundwork to set-up some good plotlines. And best of it, I do not believe there is as much legend or canon r/t DD as there was with LoA, so the writers can really go to town if they want to. I want to make a bet that DD's

flashbacks will be how Vandal Savage is introduced to Flarrowlot universe.

Edited October 15, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

They turned Ra's into a whiny baby who threw a hissy fit when he his new shiny toy didn't do what he wanted him to do. Not to mention they made him look like a fool with thinking that Oliver was Al Sah-Him.

[quarks]

Damien Darhk is rapidly becoming my favorite.  "Sure, I stop people's hearts for minor mistakes, but you - YOU'RE OUT OF CONTROL!"

 

:)

[Morrigan2575]

Damien Darhk is rapidly becoming my favorite.  "Sure, I stop people's hearts for minor mistakes, but you - YOU'RE OUT OF CONTROL!"

 

:)

I actually love his sense of humor as well.  He's a fun/evil villain.

 

However, this does bring me back to something i mentioned in the spoiler or episode thread.  His comment about crossing lines reminded me of the Moira/MM scene in 208 where she used Ra's to threaten Malcolm.  She commented that Ra's was after MM because the LoA has rules and lines and that MM crossed them with the Undertaking.  

 

I liked that DD who has ties to the LoA seems to have similar rules.  Of course this flies in the face of S3 logic where Ra's/LoA was deadset on killing Starling City populace as part of an ascension ritual

[kismet]

Maybe MM got in trouble w/ Ras for wanting to destroy his hometown while not on the ascension ritual? That's the only thing I can think of, is that if you are on the ascension ritual track then you are allowed to mass murder a whole town. But if you are just a LoA member, there is no loophole to justify your mass murder.

 

Regardless, I'm glad that DD has these codes, I think it makes him a super-villain. I want him to be a megalomaniac and pure evil, but everyone should have rules & standards - its just the gentleman like thing to do. Meticulous planning and tenacity are good virtues to have especially if you are centuries old. What Anarky did was sloppy and required clean up. You can't be sloppy, if you want to rule the world and be a living legend. DD doesn't have time to worry about his minions stepping out of line.

 

Still have no idea why he would target SC though... Interested in finding out why, since according to Ras he had been there for a little bit. Part of me really hopes they give us a good back story as to why SC is so attractive to all of these criminals. I understand Gotham (big metropolitan) & CC (home of the metahumans & now also time/space pockets) being major criminal targets. But I really don't see why SC ~ maybe it will have something to do with the ports, drugs & trades - perhaps that will be explained in the FBs. S1&2 were personal vendettas which makes sense, but besides s3 lacking a really imposing Ras - it also lacked a valid reason why SC was being targeted. If SC is requiring a team of masked heroes there has to be a good reason for it, and so far the show has failed to tell us what that is. Brick was there only real attempt & that was even weaker than their Ras.

[Genki]

I'm really enjoying DD and he is the type of Villain we needed as a follow up to Slade Wilson. I really hope though he does have a bigger plan for Starling or reason for targeting it. Ra's hinted that a lot of past incidents were related to DD so I hope there is a really smart plan and strong reveal coming together. It's also make some of the one-off villains interesting if they are connected to DD.

 

NM has alway been magnetic in the roles I've seen him in so I'm enjoying his acting, but I will eventually need more to keep enjoying his arc. Because I think his has the potential to be my Favourite Arrow villain.

 

I've never really loved Malcolm Merlyn, as a villain or as an Evil Dad.

 

I like Slade Wilson as a Frenemy to Oliver and I want to see them become reluctant allies, Deathstroke was crazy and I hope being cured of Merakuru will bring Slade back a bit, but unfortunately didn't happen in S3.

 

I like the first Count Vertigo, hammed up in the right way, it's a shame he is dead, the 2nd was terrible and can't remember what happened because I refuse to watch Canaries ever again.

 

S1 Island Villain (Fryers???) was good but can't quite remember his name

 

Brick boring

 

Ra's the less said the better

 

The Dollmaker was creepy and evil in a good way

 

Anyway have hopes for DD and I hope Arrow delivered and brings together some storylines/villains from earlier seasons to make sense of DD and his overall schemes and does not fall back on "Because Plot" or "Because Comics" for motivation.

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe MM got in trouble w/ Ras for wanting to destroy his hometown while not on the ascension ritual? That's the only thing I can think of, is that if you are on the ascension ritual track then you are allowed to mass murder a whole town. But if you are just a LoA member, there is no loophole to justify your mass murder.

RAG was also going to kill 50 innocent SC residents per day until they found out who killed Sara (who weeks before he'd been all "bygones!" about).

[kismet]

RAG was also going to kill 50 innocent SC residents per day until they found out who killed Sara (who weeks before he'd been all "bygones!" about).

Ok I forgot about that... Maybe there's also a pass for if a LoA member is killed there are also loopholes? There seemed to be a lot of loopholes, candles & secret modes of quick transportation to/from LoA/NP. That much is fact.

 

Who knows? Honestly, the rules changed all the time with Ras & his codes. I was really believing that memory loss and senility were part of the side effects of long term LP dipping.

[Delphi]

My sister was watching Reign and got me sucked in somehow there is this actor named Gil Darnell who shows up as Mary's uncle and I really wish that Arrow could have acquired him for Ra's. He's Australian as well, but hid his accent well and seemed much more menacing than Matt Nable was.

The whole episode I just kept thinking it.

[BkWurm1]

This may be an unpopular opinion but one of my favorite villains was Tockmen with his vaguely European accent and his schedules and plans.  I didn't love the episode but he made a deep impression.  I liked him as much when he showed up on The Flash.  I'm hoping to see him again someday. 

[kismet]

This may be an unpopular opinion but one of my favorite villains was Tockmen with his vaguely European accent and his schedules and plans.  I didn't love the episode but he made a deep impression.  I liked him as much when he showed up on The Flash.  I'm hoping to see him again someday. 

I enjoy that actor. He has played a villain or evil/bad/misguided character in almost every other thing I've seen him in. He was the only saving grace for the last season of Heroes before it went off air few years ago. I think if his performance had not been so strong, they might not have focused so much on the Carnival people. Because really he was the only Carnival person I wanted to see.

I feel like the actor could easily come back to the Flarrow verse if he schedule allowed & the writers wanted it. I mean he had terminal Cancer, but its a TV show - perhaps they'll forget that.

[BkWurm1]

I thought it was his sister that was dying?

[statsgirl]

They were both sick but I think she had a chronic illness that needed a transplant, which is why he needed them money, and he was straight out dying. One of them had the Mr. Freeze disease, I remember that.

 

I think The Flash ignored his illness though so maybe it went away.

[looptab]

Tockman saying "hidey hole" was the best part of that episode :D

[bijoux]

Have any other villains been on both shows?

[kismet]

You know I don't think so. Even during the crossovers, the villains were contained to their own shows.

DD is rumoured to be showing up on all 3 shows.

. Some have been referenced in conversation. But I think Tockman is the only one that has been shown on both shows. I wonder why, since they haven't really done anything with Tockman on FLASH yet.

 

Have any other villains been on both shows?

[looptab]

This just occurred to me, but shouldn't DD already know that Oliver/the Arrow/the Green Arrow are the same person? Given what happened in the finale and those hotel shenanigans, one would think he was aware of what Ra's al Ghul was planning re:Oliver.

[KirkB]

I get the impression DD has been out of contact with the League for years since he and Ra's were at odds about how things should be done. I'm sure he was aware of Ra's taking a shot at Star and figured he could swoop in and pick from the leftovers, but I'm not sure he'd have any way of knowing who the Green Arrow actually is.

[kismet]

When DD's proxy was confronted by OQ it was as Al-sha-him, not the Arrow or GA, so its highly likely that he does not know that they are the same person. There is nothing that indicates that Ras & DD ever kept personal correspondence or shared information. He might figure out something whenever

MM, the LoA & DD share a scene.

Since at that point it will be obvious if the proxy is still alive (and talking to DD) that there has been a power change in LoA.

 

I wonder if DD is even aware that Ras has died?

[KirkB]

Good question. If he does, would he approach the LoA to talk with the new leader? His issues seemed to be with Ra's but I wonder if DD and Malcolm wouldn't get along pretty well.

[bijoux]

Assuming that the HIVE is run by a mortal, normal lifespan human,mwouldn't it be humbling for Darhk to be his or her flunky? It just surprised me that he isn't at the top and in turn made me wonder how he feels about that. And that's a pretty good job all around, making me wonder when for the most part he's skulking around his man cave.

[dtissagirl]

DD keeps saying "associates", and Mina Fayad said introduced Double Down with "your partners in HIVE asked me to take steps." So she was a subordinate to the partners, but DD IS a partner. I'm still thinking Injustice League -- a consortium of villains, if you will.

[Guest]

There's definitely a group of people running H.I.V.E. but I got the impression that they maybe don't know about DD's magical abilities. Mina Fayad looked totally surprised when he started doing magical ish with that playing card just before he killed her. Something tells me DD is on a power trip and wants to rule H.I.V.E. by himself.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Guest

[KirkB]

If HIVE is run by a group of supervillains they probably know about DD's powers (he probably had to demonstrate them to gain entry) but given that they're all presumably bad guys it's pretty much guaranteed he wants to run it all by himself and just hasn't had the opportunity to take over yet.

Edited October 24, 2015 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

There's definitely a group of people running H.I.V.E. but I got the impression that they maybe don't know about DD's magical abilities. Mina Fayad looked totally surprised when he started doing magical ish with that playing card just before he killed her. Something tells me DD is on a power trip and wants to rule H.I.V.E. by himself.

People knew, he gave a whole speech about how HIVE thinks he's a charlatan. I think it was more a matter of hearing he does magic in a derogatory fashion (pallor tricks/slight of hand) and coming face to face with actual powers. Edited October 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Delphi]

DD keeps saying "associates", and Mina Fayad said introduced Double Down with "your partners in HIVE asked me to take steps." So she was a subordinate to the partners, but DD IS a partner. I'm still thinking Injustice League -- a consortium of villains, if you will.

That's my thinking as well, that he's basically the Lex or Ra's of HIVE. Sure, there are other bad guys but they don't really get to tell him what to do.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. If HIVE is indeed an evil league of evil dudes, there's plenty opportunity there for power plays, and betrayals and such.

 

I'm finding it pretty entertaining that DD is presenting himself as someone the other partners have underestimated. If whatever he's doing in SC is in part trying to prove himself to the other villains -- that's a vulnerability right there.

[bijoux]

And it's that vulnerability that makes him interesting. Really, I'm impressed by how much I want to know about him seeing as his screen time hasn't been that substantial so far. But his scenes are, even when they're with only with episodic guest stars as they have been in the last episode.

[Morrigan2575]

I find him fascinating and highly entertaining. They made a great casting call when they signed Neal M.

What's more, I'm dying to get more information on HIVE and DD's partners. For as much as this show screwed up Ra's and the LoA (and they totally screwed up, IMO), they've made up for it with DD and Hive (so far).

Edited October 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

Shhhhh. Don't jinx it.

[Guest]

People knew, he gave a whole speech about how HIVE thinks he's a charlatan. I think it was more a matter of hearing he does magic in a derogatory fashion (pallor tricks/slight of hand) and coming face to face with actual powers.

 

Oh. I must have tuned out when he did! Haha. Makes sense though. It's just Fayad looked so surprised when he did it. Maybe this was the first time seeing it. 

[kismet]

This I agree with. While he is fun to watch DD doesn't really seem as intimidating as Slade, who had obvious physicality from the first moment we saw him, or Ra's who had the rep (which he didn't even remotely live up to but that is a whole other issue). He seems a Lex Luthor type only with magic, which could be an interesting match against Oliver. But so far all we have SEEN is he can deflect arrows and move chains.

Slade was definitely the most intimidating and imposing of the Villains. The casting was spot-on and that is not always possible to find a good comic villain that bares a resemblance to good acting/stunt talent. Ras was supposed to be but the writing & the casting made him to zen-like dying legend past his time.

 

I do like the DD is a different type of imposing, its more mental which I think is a good change of pace. Especially since they are not having quality 1 on 1 stunts this year. The whole team has to fight together, we can't have special 1 on 1 fights, so could you imagine what the stunts would look like if they had a more physical villain? 

 

The casting is also great because NM is doing well, but he also looks like a guy who really has no problem being methodically evil with no remorse. He also doesn't need a body double for most of his stunts so far, so that has been a benefit -since the stunt doubles were pretty obvious last year and are obvious again this year on TA.  

 

I know that Zoom is being praised as a really intimidating villian, but he has the benefit of being from another realm, so he can have unrealistic powers. From a shooting perspective he also has a full mask, so you don't have to worry about casting an intimidating actor who can do stuntwork. A little CGI and voiceover work and you're all set. Arrow doesn't have the benefit of having faceless villains.

[tarotx]

To be real, Oliver already got his ass kicked by Damian Darhk in episide 4.1. Perhaps the stunt was too dark or not lit well. Which I think is a huge problem with season 4 over all.

[bijoux]

This is just Darhk in a nutshell.

 

[kismet]

In regards to DD & how the season may end.

 

I'm rewatching 401 and DD mentions that he controls Primordial Force Manipulation which helps him according to him controls the levers that God uses to operate the world (or something like that). I have no idea how one really defeats that but I thought it was important to mention if it helps us figure out how or if the Tattoo will come back into play in present day. Or how is all might come to a head in the final battle. I am also wondering now if everyone almost dying in crossover and time being reset will also play into weakening his powers. But I do think the fact that TQ was dipped into the pool and has been affected by it will be the most important link in defeating DD.

 

Did find this link on Primordial Force manipulation http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Primordial_Force_Manipulation

[johntfs]

I'm in the middle of 3.18 and I like Ra's al Ghul and the way he's portrayed.  He's more of an opponent than an antagonist.  Have you ever been tired?  Not just tired, but sick-tired?  Sick-tired and put in a position where you can't leave or stop working until your relief shows up, whenever that happens to be?  That's Ra's al Ghul.

 

He's been Ra's al Ghul for so damned long and then Oliver comes along.  Oliver, with his strength and personal integrity.  Oliver, who fits the prophecy as well.  Oliver, who can take the mantle, be worthy of it and spare Nyssa the weight. 

[BkWurm1]

Ra's does try to present himself as almost reasonable in this episode. 

[bijoux]

Oh, I don't think Ra's was ever motivated by spare Nyssa in any regard. But I do agree that he was tired of everything.

[dtissagirl]

If only anyone had given Ra's a year subscription to Netflix, we'd all be spared the misery porn and the dramalhama. Alas.

[johntfs]

If only anyone had given Ra's a year subscription to Netflix, we'd all be spared the misery porn and the dramalhama. Alas.

 

Ra's probably instigated multiple Game of Thrones situations in his several lifetimes.  His reaction to the Red Wedding would likely been an amused grunt of "Hmmph, I set that up in Scotland.  If I weren't already wealthy beyond avarice I'd kill that Martin bastard for copyright infringement."

 

After finishing Season 3, I'm left to wonder exactly how genuine Ra's actions and intentions were.  The thing is that Ra's "superpower" was basically "been around for a long, long year.  For someone calling himself "The Demon's Head" Ra's showed a surprising amount of understanding and compassion to people who'd invaded his realm and killed his people.  We hear multiple times how Ra's is a pitiless, vengeful killer and when we meet him, he's kind of not that bad.

 

Let's take the first duel and consider Roy's "death."  Roy was stabbed in a way to create blood loss without death by someone skilled by knifework.  Ra's has been killing for decades if not centuries.  Figure he would be able to do this as well.

 

Consider Oliver's orders to bring Nyssa back and then Ra's arranging a wedding instead of an execution.  Even the deployment of the bioweapon was a little odd.  Ra's sent Oliver a message that there would be four target areas.  Not three or five or many or several, specifically four, just enough to get Oliver's team out of the way and arrange a final duel with Oliver.

 

It's interesting that Ra's tended to fight with one hand behind his back.  I have to wonder how much of Season 3 was him doing just that - fighting handicapped so as to test Oliver but not destroy him.

 

Remember that Ra's alomst certainly would have known of Oliver Queen from Maseo when the latter delivered the Alpha-Omega bioweapon.  Oliver's torture of the general meant that he had the capacity to do monstrous things in the name of justice and vengeance.  Ra's probably kept a watch on Starling City when The Hood became active.

 

I wonder if Ra's reached out to Malcomb Merlyn with a possible pathway to forgiveness if only Malcomb would set certain things in motion, including the death of Sara, the woman who "toyed" with his daughter's heart...

[dtissagirl]

I think they wrote Ra's actions, but either forgot to give him any kind of motivation about anything [other than the greatest case of ennui ever] -- or the actor is really as limited and mediocre as I think he is, and he didn't do any kind of introspection about the role. And it showed.

[Morrigan2575]

Ra's much like everything else in S3 wasn't a character, he was a plot point.  Nothing about the character made sense, nothing about any of the characters actions made sense because everything was twisted to fit the plot.

[kismet]

Moved to Malcolm Thread :)

Edited January 7, 2016 by kismet

[SmallScreenDiva]

I don't put any of the blame for Darhk on Neal. He's truly getting the most out of what he's been given. The problem is that the writing is stalling Darhk. He's there, but he keeps doing the same thing. Even with his attacks getting personal, I don't feel the threat has been upped after the last episode. After 4x09, yes. But not after 4x10. Slade really had much better writing and progression and so far the biggest impact because we were shown all the facets of his and Oliver's relationship over the course of two seasons. That's hard to beat.

 

I agree, it really helped that Slade had a personal connection with Oliver and that aided their story. But even Slade's story stalled after 2x09. We got that big speech about going after those who follow the Arrow, corrupting those he loved, etc., and yet nothing happened in 2x10. Slade's story didn't ramp up again until maybe 2x18? The ep where he kidnapped Thea? Everything else before that was pretty much filler.  Even the big flashback ep, 2x15, where nothing happened that advanced the story. This is what I was worried about when Arrow introduced Darhk in the first ep. These writers just don't know how to plot out a villain's arc, or create a compelling mystery. 

[KirkB]

That seems to be the biggest failing the Arrow writers have. They come up with what they think is a great idea for a villain (Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul. Dark) but once they have cast them, which doesn't always go well (in the case of Ra's anyway) they don't seem to always know what to do with them over the course of a season. It's almost like they have trouble planning beyond "Which actor".

[bijoux]

It's not necessarily that they fail to plan beyond which actor, it's that they have set out points A and B but not always (hardly ever) an interesting way how to cover that distance.