Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Ace19]

The fans have come up with so many ways that the writers could bring Laurel into the A plot, ways that aren't shoehorned but make sense. I don't understand what the problem has been for the past two seasons (must notably S2). 

 

I'm starting to think its that they don't enjoy writing her. I think they like the character and they must have some faith in their vision, but I don't think they actually like writing her. 

The writers have stated they don't like writing for her.  

 

In an IGN interview on May 13, 2014:

 

 

Kreisberg: Yeah, I mean, it totally changes everyone's dynamic, having Laurel in on the secret. She has become so much more. Look, I don't think it's any big surprise that we're struggled in places with Laurel as a character -- through no fault of Katie Cassidy, who plays her wonderfully and does everything we ask of her -- but ever since she found out, it's just changed the dynamic, and it's made the show a lot more fun and enjoyable to write. So her storyline in the finale is much closer tied to her father and Sarah. But especially going into Season 3, there's a much more different dynamic in the group. It's really fun to see.

So until they actually had her know about Oliver and get her into the story that way she wasn't a character they enjoyed to write for and on the flip side they knew was not enjoyable to watch if they admitted it here.  But if you look at their last comment I had the feeling they had every intention of keeping Sara alive for S3 in order to help Laurel grow.   But killing her off changed that projection and they are flailing around again.

 

Killing Sara didn't have the expected response they wanted.  I think they thought they would be able to get rid of her with only a minor backlash, but have received more and from major critics.  Campea comes to mind.  Not to mention without Sara, the story is feeling forced in areas which weakens her story more.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by Ace19

[statsgirl]

I think it would have been great to have Sara around to help Laurel in season 3.  But Sara was dead at the end of 3x01, which they shot in June, so the decision to kill her must have been made very soon after that interview.  If not before and AK was referring to the dynamic of having Laurel in the Arrow cave, which really hasn't happened yet and the dynamic for her and Team Arrow is still the same -- she talks to Oliver and talks at the others.  

 

It's all very confusing.

[quarks]

I can't use "heroic" for that moment with Laurel, since a) Oliver was there to rescue her, b) she shot someone in the back, multiple times, c) she shot the wrong guy in the back, d) this led directly to both Team Arrow and the Starling CityPD/DAs office being completely unaware that Sebastian Blood was creating an army of superpowered soldiers for several months. I'd argue that it was Laurel's all time worst moment in the series.

 

Home Invasion should have been a great episode for her. But then, shotgun malfunction and needing rescue again.

Edited December 5, 2014 by quarks

[Chaser]

I circle back to the fact that they wrote a story on The Flash that incorporated two characters that don't know Barry's secret in a fairly big way (we saw a lot more Eddie/Iris than I thought we would). But they couldn't fit Laurel into the plot? She knows Oliver's secret. As it was already pointed out, Barry probably wouldn't care if she knew his. They can't say it would be two many characters as The Flash was just as full. I really think they just didn't want to write her in.

 

Also, I know KC had fashion week during filming but she is the second billed character on Arrow. That's the priority.

Edited December 5, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Morrigan2575]

She did not have fashion week during filming of 307 or 308 she was in Dallas for both episodes.

Fashion week was during filming of 306 and both KC and CH attended events in NYC before flying back to film for 306.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[manbearpig]

She didn't really shoot the wrong guy in the back, though.* Well, I mean...she did it. But he did kidnap her and he was about to kill Oliver. Oliver was there to rescue her, but I don't think that changes anything. Laurel still saved his life. Can't really excuse the fact that she shot him about ten times more than necessary, but, then again, she thought he was the person  who had been ruining her life, he did kidnap her, and he was about to kill the Arrow or the Hood or whatever the show was calling him at that point.

 

I don't personally blame Laurel for the police department or Team Arrow being oblivious about Blood's actions either, because she at least tried to prove Blood was up to no good, and they wouldn't have known to look into him in the first place without her. I could be blanking on something, Blind Spot was a while ago. I don't consider it an entirely heroic moment, but I can't really blame her for it either considering the circumstances.

 

*I still think the bait and switch with the cop was an, um, cop-out, but obviously they weren't going to kill Blood off so soon.

Edited December 5, 2014 by manbearpig

[BkWurm1]

I keep hearing that the problem with Laurel was she was kept so separate from the rest of the cast and that her knowing Oliver’s secret would bring her into the story. The problem is we’ll never know if this was true since this angry, vengeful path she’s on once again separates her from everything else on the show. The show runners on one hand show off the Canary costume but at the same time reassure that she's still on her journey and won't be instantly good at the hero biz and we are supposed to sit back and just take in her continued journey.  It's just that I don't want to see it.

 

She hasn’t built up as a character any good will with me over the prior two seasons ( just the opposite) and she's not endearing herself now.  So far Laurel's "journey" seems pointless to the overall show. If she's all about bringing in her sister's killer, well, why is it Felicity that is still looking for leads and combing through the evidence?  At the very least we should have had Laurel still trying to help somehow.  Instead she's off being angry and focusing on herself and how she feels.  Does her "journey" even matter to the storylines of the rest of the characters?   There seem to be  no in show reasons that call for another masked hero.   She would have been far more useful staying in the DA’s office and she would have had a chance to earn some goodwill.

 

So we have IMO an un-liked character that's not apart of the main story, doing something that does not further the rest of the storylines, who is IMO growing even more unlikeable…but sit back and enjoy the journey!  

[ban1o]

Yeah it's a bit of an exaggeration to say laurel has never ever done anything heroic at all. I remember a few times where she's saved someone or done something that helps the Arrow.

But I do agree she has problems as a character and I don't think rushing the black canary transformation will magically solve those problems.

I

Edited December 5, 2014 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

Laurel has had bouts of heroism, bravery, and selflessness way back when in season 1. However, these moments have been few and far between for me to really ever give those moments any weight. Those moments were surrounded by a sea of selfishness, damsel in distress moments which is why I can see why people don't really associate her with bravery/selflessness/heroism. Unfortunately, they didn't build these aspects of being a vigilante before starting her transformation which is why it's making it harder for me to take her arc a little seriously. Character > Plot. And right now Laurel is being turned into a caricature that's BC. BC isn't meant to define Laurel's character which is exactly what they're doing which is kind of sad. 

[statsgirl]

 If she's all about bringing in her sister's killer, well, why is it Felicity that is still looking for leads and combing through the evidence?  At the very least we should have had Laurel still trying to help somehow.  Instead she's off being angry and focusing on herself and how she feels.  Does her "journey" even matter to the storylines of the rest of the characters?   There seem to be  no in show reasons that call for another masked hero.   She would have been far more useful staying in the DA’s office and she would have had a chance to earn some goodwill.

 

So we have IMO an un-liked character that's not apart of the main story, doing something that does not further the rest of the storylines, who is IMO growing even more unlikeable…but sit back and enjoy the journey!  

That's a good point and one that's all on the writing -- why is it Felicity who is looking for Sara's killer, and Laurel who is beating up random people, learning to box, and brow-beating her father?  (Remember that heart condition, Laurel, that was the reason you couldn't tell him about Sara's death?  It's still there.)

 

They've told us often that the problem with writing for Laurel is that she doesn't know Oliver's secret ... well, she's known for almost a year now and they still can't integrate her into the A plot unless the A plot is about her.

[olicityfan25]

I have a feeling they are going to try to make her more heroic than everyone combined. I have this bad feeling that they are going to make her a hero by stopping some bad guy all by herself. Like "see she doesn't need a team! She did it all on her own!" 

 

Then we will also have her fans saying "see she doesn't need Oliver to save the city." I can hear this in my head right now and it's killing me.

Edited December 5, 2014 by olicityfan25

[wonderwall]

I have a feeling they are going to try to make her more heroic than everyone combined. I have this bad feeling that they are going to make her a hero by stopping some bad guy all by herself. Like "see she doesn't need a team! She did it all on her own!" 

 

Then we will also have her fans saying "see she doesn't need Oliver to save the city." I can hear this in my head right now and it's killing me.

If this is the case then I see no reason why she needs to stay in the city. Let her save a different city on her own because even as a hero, she'd still have no tie-in to the main plot. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by wonderwall

[Ariah]

My recent season 1 marathon with Arrow brought me to a surprising conclusion: Laurel used to be much more likable. She used to have this notion of changing the world for good and conviction to do that. Then - something went wrong. (Mind you, the "wrong" is not part of the plot, it's not the crucible. It just happened in between season 1 and 2, when Laurel's status changed from a love interest to an ex-girlfriend.)

 

I will never deny that Laurel Lance had a hard time. In her own right, she has suffered a lot. It's that in comparison to what we, the audience, have seen with other characters - even Helena B., - her suffering is mild at most.

 

She kind of reminds me of a colleague of mine, who is very self-centered. She is a nice person and can be a good friend. But whenever something happend in her life that derails her plans, it's a godamned tragedy. Every fail is epic: if she misses the bus, the world ends -> according to her own story. And you're sitting there, listening to her moaning how her life is miserable because of the bus thinking that your dad has just been given his third blood transfusion and you don't know if you'll have a chance to spend Christmas together - but you know better than to talk to people about it all the time.

 

What I'm saying is that Laurel is the victim of her own mundanity. She's ordinary and her problems - up till Sara's death - were kind of ordinary. In the world of superheroes, larger-than-life characters, she comes across as a winy crybaby whatever she does. The fact that I remember Black Canary from "The Longbow Hunters" as a different, stronger woman, does not help Laurel.

 

At this time, I have a feeling that however heroic the writers will make her, it will only enrage the anti-fans, not win them over. Just like with Neal in Once Upon a Time

- at the beginning of season 3 the writers wanted to make up for the terrible thing he did to the main female character (leaving her to go to jail while pregnant with his kid - to his credit, he didn't know she was pregnant... but the jail part he knew). So he became suddenly very much in love and very heroic. still, his actions were not viewed by the majority of viewers in the way the writers wanted and he was killed off after a much prolonged stint.

 

So Laurel can now start acting like a true Black Canary, be heroic, save the city or just a few people for good measure - but the discrepancy between her backstory and the backstories of other heroes on the show is to vast. The recent scene in the SPOILERS only thread just added to the feeling. I know it was probably supposed to be a heroic act but... it just doesn't fit.

[writersblock51]

We haven't seen Laurel doing anything to find her sister's killer in the recent episodes.  Furthermore, there seems to be no sense of imminent danger from the mysterious killer - isn't anyone concerned that they could be next?  They have only theories about why she was in town and can speculate why she was killed.  How does Laurel know that she and her father aren't also targets?

 

She has the resources of the DA's office AND the police department to find the killer.  But no.  It's not on her radar.

 

Instead, Felicity is, on the sly,  trying to trace any leads from some DNA.

 

I'm still ticked off that Sara was killed off to further Laurel's journey to become BC. Felicity referred to Sara as 'The Canary.'  Whatever. Laurel is, or will become, the Black Canary. But WHY is she doing so?  Because she's so angry?  I'd actually like to hear, from her, on screen, what her motivation is.  Because finding the killer isn't it.  Living a life that her sister most likely (if Laurel were to be honest with herself and also listen to Oliver, who knew Sara better than Laurel did) wouldn't want her to do isn't it either. 

 

There's a psychology behind Laurel's behavior this season that, if explored (briefly), would help explain her new role.  It may help fans of the show like myself and others here to relate to WHY she's doing that she is.

 

For now, all of the reasons seem hollow and contrived.  The only sense of urgency that I feel from her is to be able to beat up bad guys.  She wants to be able to take down Sara's killer but she's not even trying to find out who that is anymore.  Does she assume the killer is waiting on hooks for her to be ready to fight?  Does she think that a few months of angry training will give her a better shot than Sara had?  She saw how Sara died - quick and with no chance to defend herself.  How on earth does Laurel think that boxing lessons are going to give her an advantage?

 

This is the stuff that further hurts Laurel's credibility, in my opinion.  This has nothing to do with KC's acting choices - this is all on the writers and whoever is plotting this path.

 

I do wonder if any of them are even trying to get non-KC/LL fans to even like her or they've realized it's a lost cause.  They likely wouldn't say anything publicly anyway.  But the EPs have consistently used the wording 'fans of Laurel' to couch expectations.  That tells me that they know they aren't going to sway other fans so why even bother writing a fleshed out journey that makes sense. 

 

The various ideas posted here have been more thought out, I think, than anything the show has done.  And the spoilers don't inspire confidence.  I wish the EPs and writers checked out the boards here.   I think there have been a lot of good ideas that would have helped Laurel's characterization on the show, even so late in the game.

[apinknightmare]

We haven't seen Laurel doing anything to find her sister's killer in the recent episodes.  Furthermore, there seems to be no sense of imminent danger from the mysterious killer - isn't anyone concerned that they could be next?  They have only theories about why she was in town and can speculate why she was killed.  How does Laurel know that she and her father aren't also targets?

 

She has the resources of the DA's office AND the police department to find the killer.  But no.  It's not on her radar.

 

Laurel has no interest in finding who killed Sara, she just wants to make sure she's fully prepared to administer UNHOLY VENGEANCE upon them when she does. It's part of why her storyline is coming off so weak. She's angry enough to kill (I'm guessing she wants to kill them - or does she just want to give them a beatdown? IDK) the person who did it, but not angry enough to lift a finger or really give much of a shit about finding them. She's perfectly willing to let Oliver and co. sit back and do the heavy lifting in that area, even though she still could've gotten her vengeance if there had been a legit police investigation into it, and they could've incorporated the search into her everyday life as DA. Since they decided to go this route, I'd actually buy this arc if her desire for revenge ate at her every second of the day to the point where she lost herself in it and fell into a spiral - like finding this person became almost like a madness and her real life suffered for it. The fact that she's just doing boxing extracurriculars while showing angry face every time Oliver and co. find and debunk another "suspect" is laughable to me. 

 

I am interested to see what happens if the show is going with Thea as the murderer (even if it is a red herring). Is Laurel going to find out? Are Diggle and Felicity going to have to guard her 24/7 while Oliver's off with Ra's to make sure Laurel doesn't try to kill her? Is Laurel going to give it a go and then get a hearty beatdown from Ninja Thea? How is she possibly working with the team if Oliver left it to go to Ra's to save Thea? Inquiring minds and all that.

Edited December 5, 2014 by apinknightmare

[manbearpig]

I do think they are trying to get people who aren't fans of Katie Cassidy or Laurel to come on board this season, and, honestly, I've noticed a pretty positive reaction to her character in some places. I'm enjoying her story arc this season, but at the same time I do think it features some of the things that have been problematic for the character in the past; she's largely isolated from the main storyline, barely interacts with her father this season because of the contrived heart condition that is making Laurel look bad and while I don't agree with her decision to lie to Quentin I can understand it even if it's dumb as hell, and she's not on Team Arrow yet so we only see her with those characters from time to time. And even then she's only really spoken to Oliver, which is baffling. I do think she should be actively looking for Sara's killer though, but then again, I don't think they should have killed Sara off in the first place.

 

Even with those problems the show is such a mess this season that I'm still interested in Laurel's storyline more than anyone else's, maybe with the exception of Thea, and even then I haven't gotten nearly as much twisted craziness from her and Malcolm that I want. There are still other characters on the show I love and always enjoy, like Diggle and Felicity, but Diggle doesn't really have much of a storyline at the minute outside of his family stuff (love them together), and Felicity's involvement with Ray makes me dread her scenes outside of the Arrow cave.

[Ariah]

Laurel has no interest in finding who killed Sara, she just wants to make sure she's fully prepared to administer UNHOLY VENGEANCE upon them when she does. It's part of why her storyline is coming off so weak. She's angry enough to kill (I'm guessing she wants to kill them - or does she just want to give them a beatdown? IDK) the person who did it, but not angry enough to lift a finger or really give much of a shit about finding them. She's perfectly willing to let Oliver and co. sit back and do the heavy lifting in that area, even though she still could've gotten her vengeance if there had been a legit police investigation into it, and they could've incorporated the search into her everyday life as DA. Since they decided to go this route, I'd actually buy this arc if her desire for revenge ate at her every second of the day to the point where she lost herself in it and fell into a spiral - like finding this person became almost like a madness and her real life suffered for it. The fact that she's just doing boxing extracurriculars while showing angry face every time Oliver and co. find and debunk another "suspect" is laughable to me. 

 

I am interested to see what happens if the show is going with Thea as the murderer (even if it is a red herring). Is Laurel going to find out? Are Diggle and Felicity going to have to guard her 24/7 while Oliver's off with Ra's to make sure Laurel doesn't try to kill her? Is Laurel going to give it a go and then get a hearty beatdown from Ninja Thea? How is she possibly working with the team if Oliver left it to go to Ra's to save Thea? Inquiring minds and all that.

Just for the sake of the visual - I'd actually like to see

Thea vs Laurel - I'd go with Thea as a red-herring killer.

 

But let's face it, Malcolm would mutilate Laurel in less then 10 seconds, tops.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Ariah

[writersblock51]

I'd love to see Malcolm and Laurel in a scene together. They both blame each other for Tommy's death, I'm sure.

[Ariah]

I'd love to see Malcolm and Laurel in a scene together. They both blame each other for Tommy's death, I'm sure.

 

Indeed they do, but I bet Malcolm's solution to his grief, if confronted with a teary Laurel / an angry Laurel / a righteous Laurel would be to point out that it was the said Laurel's ill decision to return to a colapsing building that led to Tommy's death - ergo, Laurel is more guilty than Malcolm in Malcolm's eyes.

 

I still wonder how a man who leveled the Glades because one man killed his wife in that neighbourhood did nothing about a girl whose stupidity was a direct cause of his son's demise.

[apinknightmare]

I still wonder how a man who leveled the Glades because one man killed his wife in that neighbourhood did nothing about a girl whose stupidity was a direct cause of his son's demise.

 

Does he actually even care enough about Tommy being dead to go after Laurel? Unless I'm blocking something from my memory, he seems a bit "meh" about it. I wonder if a big deal was made about Tommy dying to save Laurel, like if it was mentioned in his eulogy and obit and stuff. That's probably another convo for another thread.

[statsgirl]

I think Malcolm saw Tommy as flawed and not strong like Thea so he's kind of written him off.  But more likely it's a plot contrivance since if he went after Laurel, there's no way he wouldn't get her.

She kind of reminds me of a colleague of mine, who is very self-centered. She is a nice person and can be a good friend. But whenever something happend in her life that derails her plans, it's a godamned tragedy. Every fail is epic: if she misses the bus, the world ends -> according to her own story. And you're sitting there, listening to her moaning how her life is miserable because of the bus thinking that your dad has just been given his third blood transfusion and you don't know if you'll have a chance to spend Christmas together - but you know better than to talk to people about it all the time.

 

What I'm saying is that Laurel is the victim of her own mundanity. She's ordinary and her problems - up till Sara's death - were kind of ordinary. In the world of superheroes, larger-than-life characters, she comes across as a winy crybaby whatever she does. The fact that I remember Black Canary from "The Longbow Hunters" as a different, stronger woman, does not help Laurel.

I've been thinking of Laurel more as one of the mean girls from high school, given how she treated Sara and Felicity, but I think you've done it better.  That's exactly who she comes across as.  Even her line to Sara when Sara tried to tell her that Oliver wasn't ready to move in with her because he was cheating all over the place "Why can't you be happy for me?" reinforces it.

 

I see the parallel with Neal on OUaT but I don't think Neal was ever meant to be Emma's endgame, just a storytelling ploy and stall for Hook, whereas Laurel was originally (I hope) meant to be Oliver's endgame.

 

I do wonder if any of them are even trying to get non-KC/LL fans to even like her or they've realized it's a lost cause.  They likely wouldn't say anything publicly anyway.  But the EPs have consistently used the wording 'fans of Laurel' to couch expectations.  That tells me that they know they aren't going to sway other fans so why even bother writing a fleshed out journey that makes sense. 

I think they can sway fans of the show though. Agreed that for some viewers she's a lost cause (a friend of mine watches the show over the internet the next day and I have to tell her how much Laurel there is in it and that's how she decides whether to watch) but for many people, who watch for the action or the overall storyline, I think they could come over to the Laurel-side if she was a well-written character.  For example, if even she was keeping Sara's death a secret from her  father, but using every resource she can find in an effort to find Sara's killer, DNA, contacts with the LoA, working closely with Team Arrow, while training with Ted Grant because she knows that when the person is found, she may be in for the fight of her life.  

 

Instead, she seems to be more focused on getting vengeance on people who didn't kill her sister and brow-beating everyone from her father to Oliver, while Felicity is the one working three jobs to help find Sara's killer, and was the one to prepare Sara's body for burial.

 

 

Laurel has no interest in finding who killed Sara, she just wants to make sure she's fully prepared to administer UNHOLY VENGEANCE upon them when she does. It's part of why her storyline is coming off so weak. She's angry enough to kill (I'm guessing she wants to kill them - or does she just want to give them a beatdown? IDK) the person who did it, but not angry enough to lift a finger or really give much of a shit about finding them. She's perfectly willing to let Oliver and co. sit back and do the heavy lifting in that area, even though she still could've gotten her vengeance if there had been a legit police investigation into it, and they could've incorporated the search into her everyday life as DA. Since they decided to go this route, I'd actually buy this arc if her desire for revenge ate at her every second of the day to the point where she lost herself in it and fell into a spiral - like finding this person became almost like a madness and her real life suffered for it. The fact that she's just doing boxing extracurriculars while showing angry face every time Oliver and co. find and debunk another "suspect" is laughable to me. 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking.  Seeing her spiral down into revenge and fight her way back could actually become a real island for her instead of that bad addiction arc last season.  In fact, it's the only island I can think of for her right now, the only real reason for putting on the Canary black leathers because what I'm seeing now is someone who has always wanted other people to behave the way she wants them to and is now getting ready to do it physically too.

 

Even at this point, they could do a better job of writing Laurel so that she becomes a more popular character. The question is, why aren't they doing it?

 

ETA:  I was talking to my daughter about why wasn't Laurel actively looking for Sara's killer and she replied "Because Laurel killed her."  She meant it in a metaphorical way, that Sara was killed so Laurel could become the Black Canary, but it would be an interesting explanation as to why Laurel doesn't seem to be looking for Sara's killer.

Edited December 5, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

But if you look at their last comment I had the feeling they had every intention of keeping Sara alive for S3 in order to help Laurel grow. But killing her off changed that projection and they are flailing around again.

That makes sense, except didn't Caity Lotz say that she knew that Sara was being killed off when last season's finale filmed? I don't have the reference, but it seems like someone here posted that she said it at a convention recently. So that would mean that they knew Sara was getting killed off in the season premiere when that interview happened.

Keeping Sara around for another season to help Laurel grow and to help her build more relationships with the other characters would have made sense, but once again, like with everything Laurel it seems, they made the choice that doesn't make sense. If they're really planning to keep Laurel around long-term, why not give her some time to build up some good will with the audience? Give her some time off from round #3 of Angry Laurel?

I know I'm not watching anymore (except for a few Laurel-lite or Laurel-free episodes), but even watching from the sidelines, I can't figure out for the life of me what they're doing with her. I'm inclined to agree with 10Eleven12 - the writers seem committed to keeping the character and/or the actress for whatever reason, but they don't actually seem to enjoy writing for her. She always gets sent to the sidelines when the "fun stuff" happens, like this latest crossover event. It's just strange.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Starfish35

[Genki]

If it is anything like my experience I think it will be hard to get the majority of anti-LL fans on Laurel's side.

 

When I decided to give arrow a second shot it was after I felt the direction was set to not have LL be the LI. approx after 2.12 had aired, and I liked what I saw of KC in Melrose Place and Supernatural even GG. Through binge watching I mostly didn't mind Laurel and wanted her to get her character groove on. 

 

As a viewer I kept looking for moments where I could connect with Laurel as a character, and KC as an actor. There were only 2-3in S2, her delivery about Olives and Coffee in 2.12 was one, and Lance & Laurel scene pre-dinner party form hell in her apartment. Bitchy Laurel, when it is deliberate story direction work best for me.
 

But there are a numbers factors which has turned me against and redemption for LL as a character.

 

Firstly the writing, they are not writing to KC's strengths as an actress, which makes her performance as LL inauthentic, for me. The character in show does not match the tell in the Story/Dialogue so there is the disconnect between what they say about Laurel and what I see as a fan.

 

Before we got 3.01 it could have worked for in me in the following scenario -They could have gone ahead with a different "Hero's Journey" like manhunter, why kill off Sara so blatantly and waste Kate Spenser and the Manhunter mythos, this could have kick started the road to a competent vigilante identity without having the weight and expectation of the BC persona hanging so heavily over the character. This of course would have required Sara to live and be a reoccurring character, with teases about Laurel being BC. Potential adoption of BC in the last season. 

 

I can't get passed the plot contrivances (character deaths or OCC moments) to get Laurel to be BC and in the main storyline.

 

With Felicity in the LI role there isn't any reason for Oliver and ex-girlfriend Laurel to be in each others lives meaningfully, their only connection, Tommy is gone. Sara could have been a legit connection, but we all know what happened there, so any interaction seems forced and I actually resent seeing Laurel in any scene with Team Arrow. I don't want her integrated into the main storyline, because it does not happen organically. 2.21 was a prime example of this.

 

I think the fact the the writers seems so intent on forcing the BC storyline makes me push back harder as a fan. Everything this season with Laurel breaks the 4th wall for me. I only see plot purposes or EP intentions behind all her scenes. Therefore I would prefer if she was downgraded to reoccurring if they insist on going ahead with the BC origin story. 

[insubordination]

 

, and gives her something she's almost never had: an actual heroic moment.

 

I binge-watched Vikings this week, and there were two characters in particular I did not like because of the acting and/or characterization. I didn't think I could be turned around on them, but they had the characters do something remarkable/admirable/heroic, and I warmed up just a little. It will never be love though. 

 

They need to do something like that with Laurel urgently. However, it may be too late for some. I won't be tuning in to her 3 episode arc due to lack of interest in that character.  I bristle each time I see her in the Arrow Cave,  and that's likely where she's going to be. I don't even want Dig/Fel to share scenes with her 'cos I haven't seen a good one so far.  

 

I also believe the writers don't like her and try to keep her separate from the story. I kind of appreciate it because I can easily skip her scenes. I don't know if their plan was always to make her BC (despite the name), but I can't see how this unfolding so late in the game is going to be anything other than a dog's breakfast.  I say 'late in the game' 'cos this show looks like it's just about over for me (and it has nothing to do with Laurel - just S3 in general).

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I also believe the writers don't like her and try to keep her separate from the story.

 

If the writing for her in season 1 wasn't enough, hiring another actress to play Black Canary made it crystal clear they have no intention of making her anything than a scapegoat.

 

Writing a dynamic origin and current storyline for said BC, killing her and slapping the custom on Laurel is not going to endear her to fans. They can't be that stupid to think it would. I think they write her that way deliberately because she takes away the focus of criticizing the show as a whole. Almost everything that is wrong with the show is laid at Laurel/KC's feet, they must secretly love it. 

[BkWurm1]

The character in show does not match the tell in the Story/Dialogue so there is the disconnect between what they say about Laurel and what I see as a fan.

 

If they could just fix this a lot of my frustration would go away.  I might still not love the character, but as long as what they are doing and saying and what others are saying about what she's doing match up, then the indignation goes away.

 

I can't fathom why the directors accept the constant brittle rage that flows out in every scene even when it makes zero sense for what is written.  I know KC has done well with characters that are more angry or snide, maybe TPTB think they are letting her play to her strengths or maybe they think showing her angry all the time is proof of her determination.  For me though, she's always been angry and bitter toward the world and the only way I think I'd recognize real growth in her is if she gets that part of her personality under control.   

[TanyaKay]

I binge-watched Vikings this week, and there were two characters in particular I did not like because of the acting and/or characterization. I didn't think I could be turned around on them, but they had the characters do something remarkable/admirable/heroic, and I warmed up just a little. It will never be love though. 

 

They need to do something like that with Laurel urgently. However, it may be too late for some. I won't be tuning in to her 3 episode arc due to lack of interest in that character.  I bristle each time I see her in the Arrow Cave,  and that's likely where she's going to be. I don't even want Dig/Fel to share scenes with her 'cos I haven't seen a good one so far.  

 

Even if she is given something heroic to do, chances are that KC would not take advantage of it and let that opportunity go to waste. Case in point is the recent episode. She had about 57 second of appearance in the cross over episode where she had one line where she berates her father for something and then two lines with Oliver which were" Oliver, can I talk to you for a moment." and "The arrow was in Central City." They were simple plain lines and could've been delivered in nice friendly way but somehow she managed to sound condescending and mean, so even if she is given heroic moments, she will probably ruin them with her acting choices. I have absolutely no hope for her doing well in heroic moments.

[slayer2]

If they could just fix this a lot of my frustration would go away. I might still not love the character, but as long as what they are doing and saying and what others are saying about what she's doing match up, then the indignation goes away.

I can't fathom why the directors accept the constant brittle rage that flows out in every scene even when it makes zero sense for what is written. I know KC has done well with characters that are more angry or snide, maybe TPTB think they are letting her play to her strengths or maybe they think showing her angry all the time is proof of her determination. For me though, she's always been angry and bitter toward the world and the only way I think I'd recognize real growth in her is if she gets that part of her personality under control.

I feel like you're using the wrong word. *accept* The directors don't accept, they direct and they've been telling the cast what to do for years, if TPTB didn't want what she was doing they would have changed it, they're not shy.Dumping it on KC is to my mind, erroneous.

[Starfish35]

How is it erroneous? Not all actors are created equal - while our opinions may differ on KC's abilities, I think we can agree on that. Actors aren't just robots that perform to a director's bidding. A director obviously has input and a certain amount of control over how a scene is played, but they have to work with the abilities of the actor they're working with.

[catrox14]

I feel like you're using the wrong word. *accept* The directors don't accept, they direct and they've been telling the cast what to do for years, if TPTB didn't want what she was doing they would have changed it, they're not shy.Dumping it on KC is to my mind, erroneous.

 

She is the ostensibile female lead, 2nd billed only after Amell. I would imagine she is contracted to appear in x number of episodes. If her work is not up to snuff they can't exactly edit her out of ALL the scenes.  So yes, the directors do have to accept what she gives them and do what they can to make it work and unfortunately they can't afford take after take after take.

[looptab]

Laurel has no interest in finding who killed Sara, she just wants to make sure she's fully prepared to administer UNHOLY VENGEANCE upon them when she does. It's part of why her storyline is coming off so weak. She's angry enough to kill (I'm guessing she wants to kill them - or does she just want to give them a beatdown? IDK) the person who did it, but not angry enough to lift a finger or really give much of a shit about finding them. She's perfectly willing to let Oliver and co. sit back and do the heavy lifting in that area, even though she still could've gotten her vengeance if there had been a legit police investigation into it, and they could've incorporated the search into her everyday life as DA. Since they decided to go this route, I'd actually buy this arc if her desire for revenge ate at her every second of the day to the point where she lost herself in it and fell into a spiral - like finding this person became almost like a madness and her real life suffered for it. The fact that she's just doing boxing extracurriculars while showing angry face every time Oliver and co. find and debunk another "suspect" is laughable to me.

 

Agreed with all you've said. I think they went about it the wrong way, if there were an investigation she could have actually been useful, but since there is not, and she has no abilities or competence  whatsoever in any other field, the only thing she can do is to wait until the capable vigilante friend catches the killer and then hope she gets to have her revenge. Also, they were probably going for the "vengeful thoughts are consuming me" route, with her bat-adventures and riot-squad sendings, but since all that rage was not directed to doing something for Sara's murder,(again, because she can't possibly do anything in that regard) she just came off as a lunatic.

 

But there are a numbers factors which has turned me against and redemption for LL as a character.

 

Firstly the writing, they are not writing to KC's strengths as an actress, which makes her performance as LL inauthentic, for me. The character in show does not match the tell in the Story/Dialogue so there is the disconnect between what they say about Laurel and what I see as a fan.

 

 

I can't get passed the plot contrivances (character deaths or OCC moments) to get Laurel to be BC and in the main storyline.

 

With Felicity in the LI role there isn't any reason for Oliver and ex-girlfriend Laurel to be in each others lives meaningfully, their only connection, Tommy is gone. Sara could have been a legit connection, but we all know what happened there, so any interaction seems forced and I actually resent seeing Laurel in any scene with Team Arrow. I don't want her integrated into the main storyline, because it does not happen organically. 2.21 was a prime example of this.

 

I think the fact the the writers seems so intent on forcing the BC storyline makes me push back harder as a fan. Everything this season with Laurel breaks the 4th wall for me. I only see plot purposes or EP intentions behind all her scenes. Therefore I would prefer if she was downgraded to reoccurring if they insist on going ahead with the BC origin story.

 

I'm with you on this. I binged the show this summer, and I couldn' stand her right from the beginning.(I was pleasantly surprised when I found other like-minded people on various boards  once I started reading comments about the show :) )

To me it is both a writing and acting problem. I'm sorry, but KC's performance brings me out of it every time. I don't buy her, I can see she's acting, if that makes sense, it looks fake. Every time she comes up on screen it's irritating, but I just wait until the next scene because she's on the show and I can't do nothing about it, (lol),but that's why I don't want her in scenes with Team Arrow, I mean I have no problem with Lyla, Cisco, Caitlin, Barry, Capt Boomerang, Slade and even the pizza delivery guy being in the Foundry, but whenever she's there it's like hearing nails on a chalkboard. Ugh.

 

  I doubt they can win me over, so I guess I'm with those hoping they at least won't make her journey too tedious and long.

Edited December 6, 2014 by looptab

[rue721]

I do think they've written her out of the show as much as they can. The show has done virtually nothing to further Laurel's relationships with any of the rest of the cast -- she barely even exchanges dialogue with any of them save Oliver anyway at this point -- and the show is not only aware of that, it's even hung lanterns on it, like with Felicity's "are we favor friends?" etc. She doesn't even physically share many scenes with any of the cast either, she's mostly contained within a separate SL with separate supporting characters (like Ted Grant and possibly Quintin) that are on separate sets (like the boxing gym and her work). While apparently the show(s) decided to send Felicity over to Flash every other day, presumably because they think Arrow viewers will follow Felicity over there and start watching that show, too, Laurel has never even spoken to any of Flash's cast afaik (possibly Barry in the five seconds they were on screen together in the crossover?). In comparison, even Roy and Thea were highlighted by/"admired" by Flash cast members (Roy's red suit, Cisco's comment in the bar, etc). Imo that probably means "the show" (writers, producers, who knows) thinks that Laurel isn't going to bring any viewers to the Flash or might even be an issue for new/Flash viewers and therefore wanted to minimize her presence in any crossover and to keep her contained on Arrow -- and even *within* Arrow, she's contained from the rest of the cast/storylines as much as possible imo (what is she, a contaminant?). The writers have apparently spent three seconds at most thinking about her storyline/character development, given that it makes no sense and the most engaging part of her SL-- the "murder mystery" w/r/t Sara -- has been spearheaded mostly by Felicity (now even Caitlin is helping move it forward) and barely at all by Laurel. They've tried to throw (Ted's) glistening male abs or Quintin or whatever else they think is likely to be pretty popular with fans into her scenes as much as possible -- I would guess to try and keep people from ff-ing through those scenes. This past episode, with her obviously minimal 1-2 (meaningless) lines, in which she was once again splintered off to just interact with Oliver, felt like a contractual obligation to me. I don't know for sure of course, but as a regular, I doubt she can be missing from more than 3 episodes per season and it felt to me like they were trying to make this one "count" by giving her a "speaking part" (but as minimal a "speaking part" as possible).

 

Anyway, I think that Laurel will probably be on the show in some way or another until her contract is up (so through S5 or S6?). But imo the show seems pretty aware that she's not popular and is de facto trying to force her off. They've tried to contain her and splinter her off in terms of scenes and story and interactions with other characters, they haven't been throwing her much of a bone writing-wise and have imo basically trashed her character over the past couple seasons (even that drunk!Laurel SL with all the law-related ethical lapses going on was hideous imo. And this season? *long whistle and crashing sound*) including trashing/failing to develop her relationships with the other characters.

 

I actually wonder if Sara was sacrificed not so we could see a fleshed-out Black Canary "journey" for Laurel but in order to cut the main tie between Laurel and the rest of the cast, so that Laurel would be easier to drop. Sara had close ties with all of the cast (individually -- probably least with Diggle, and even he named his firstborn after her ffs!), plus with the Big Bads (the LoA, Shane, etc) *and* had close ties with Laurel. But as was said above, without Sara, Laurel is just Oliver's ex-girlfriend from college and there's not really any reason for her to be around him or any of them at this point. Even Cin would make more sense as a member of the cast (please! that would be great actually!) than Laurel, since at least Cin actually is friends with Roy and Thea. Maybe Sara was a sacrifice in the writers' mission to isolate and dump Laurel?

[catrox14]

I seriously doubt they are writing her out especially if she is going to be BC. 

 

Take the crossover for example. She is not a true member of Team Arrow so she had no reason to go to Central City so that was a good choice. Then in pt 2 on Arrow, she just happened to be at the police station IMO just to give her dialogue with Oliver. Oliver was there with Barry to talk to Quentin, Laurel was superfluous. Yes she had reason to be there because lunch with Dad or her duties as ADA but to me that felt like they just had to give her something to do.

 

I guess for me that sums up Laurel. She is superfluous now.. I think she doesn't really have an organic place in the show anymore, so they have had to manufacture ways to keep her in vs manufacturing ways to keep her out.

[rue721]

I guess for me that sums up Laurel. She is superfluous now.. I think she doesn't really have an organic place in the show anymore, so they have had to manufacture ways to keep her in vs manufacturing ways to keep her out.

 

That's exactly what I mean, though. Scenes like that look to me like they're contractually obligated to give her a speaking role in a certain number of episodes, so they try to do that in the most self-contained/isolated and minimal way possible. They've also done virtually all they could to make her look both unethical and incompetent, neither of which seems like they're actually setting her up for a hero's journey. Sara was her only real tie to the rest of the cast, so they killed Sara off.

 

What I personally would want to do, if I were writing for this show, would be to get her at least minimally trained/angry this season with a big "she's a villain!!1!" moment as a finale cliffhanger, have her act/grow into her role as a villain next season (under Malcolm, with Thea or Tommy, Idk) with her ending the season by killing her mentor/partner, then she can become the Big Bad the season after that, and the Big Bad arc could end in her ~tragic death.~  That would take the show (I think?) to the end of KC's contract. Since they have the comics canon to deal with, though, that's probably not workable. Though imo it weirdly seems like the path they're on, but...*shrug* I guess they could do all that but then not have her actually die at the end of the Big Bad arc, and instead spend a season being "redeemed" (if KC's got a 6-season contract esp) and after some big climactic "redemption!!1!" at the end of S6 she could go off to, Idk, meditate/train/whatever and be reduced to guest star-or-possibly-recurring.

 

ETA:

Oh, sorry -- in case my wild theorizing didn't clue you in, I'm unspoiled, have never read the comics, etc.

Edited December 6, 2014 by rue721

[Starfish35]

By the way, SonofaBiscuit (I think?) mentioned this back when Draw Back Your Bow aired, but I hadn't read the article until tonight, where Amy Gumenick (Cupid, young Mary Winchester) talks about auditioning for the role of Laurel. Just my opinion, but I think it's a shame she didn't get it. I know the writing would still have been bad, but I think she could have made Laurel a more layered and sympathetic character in spite of it.

http://www.thewrap.com/arrow-villain-amy-gumenick-says-she-originally-hoped-to-play-another-character/

Edited December 6, 2014 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

I feel like you're using the wrong word. *accept* The directors don't accept, they direct and they've been telling the cast what to do for years, if TPTB didn't want what she was doing they would have changed it, they're not shy.Dumping it on KC is to my mind, erroneous.

Except that over and over what is written on the page and what I hear and see on screen are not matching.  Scenes are open to some interpretation but I can't help remember ones where Laurel is not alone and she's reacting one way and her scene partner(s) are reacting another which very often does match IMO the tone of the written word.  An easy one to reference is the goodbye to Sara at the end of Unthinkable.  First time I watched it, all I saw was the bubbly smile on Laurel's face and I was extremely confused why the writers were sending Sara off with a pat on the head and have fun at camp attitude, but on rewatch I discovered that PB was concerned, worried, and strained through the whole scene and with him, CL was subdued but emotional.   They were reacting in a way that matched up to the dialogue and the history and the characterization but I can't say the same about KC.   I specifically listened to her lines and realized that they too could have been read in a far more somber and wistful way and in examining the whole scene, the more sober and regretful line reading would have IMO better fit the written scene. 

 

I said accept for her the acting choices she makes because in the scenes I've referenced they don't seem the natural choices for the material. What you said about it being the director's job to get the right performance out of an actor is also what I thought (which only added to my confusion) but it's my understanding that the schedule that must be kept for a tv shoot are too tight for lots of chances to get it perfect, the director only has so much time to get so many shots and then they are stuck with the best of the worst. 

 

I remember on Smallville they talked about some scene that was only going so so, but then the cast finally nailed it perfectly only for them to realize a mic got into the shot.  Instead of doing it again, they had to move on and use one of the earlier crappier takes.  That was the explanation for some of the blatantly bad continuity errors, they could choose good acting or the jacket being on and off and then on again.   

 

So it feels like to me that either KC is doing exactly what the show runners and directors want her to do and it's the writers that keep writing misleading scenarios and dialogue or it's that KC is trying to do what the show runners and directors want her to do but what she is doing isn't lining up quite right with what the writers want her to express.

[blixie]

 

but they have to work with the abilities of the actor they're working with.

 

No, they can fire actors, the idea that actors have more power than directors and producers on television, unless they also have Exec Producer credits like Juliana Margulies is absurd. They are 54 episodes into this here mofo, if she is not giving them what then need, and what they expect they need to sit her ass down and give her a come to Jesus meeting about inability to properly take direction. Their strategy the last two years seems to be: give her as little as possible week to week, have four episodes in row where she's featured a ton, and then forgot about her again, with little regard to how much that is janking up the whole show. Sure that seems much wiser than just ditching her completely.

[statsgirl]

I remember on Smallville they talked about some scene that was only going so so, but then the cast finally nailed it perfectly only for them to realize a mic got into the shot.  Instead of doing it again, they had to move on and use one of the earlier crappier takes.  That was the explanation for some of the blatantly bad continuity errors, they could choose good acting or the jacket being on and off and then on again.   

KC does a lot of work with Paul Blackthorne working out scenes because they're both method actors and they should both be on the same page.  But didn't KC say in an interview that she was so excited at being handed the jacket?  I guess that was such a big episode that that scene was one of those times of using what there is on the take.

[slayer2]

She is the ostensibile female lead, 2nd billed only after Amell. I would imagine she is contracted to appear in x number of episodes. If her work is not up to snuff they can't exactly edit her out of ALL the scenes. So yes, the directors do have to accept what she gives them and do what they can to make it work and unfortunately they can't afford take after take after take.

If her work isn't up to snuff then they just tell her so like they do with every other actor. "She sucks and they're too afraid to tell her." Or "She sucks but she costs too much to fire" sound ludicrous. I know what it looks like when a show can't stand the actress it's called Jenny Humphrey or to a lesser extent, Kol Mikaelson.

I think what's happening here is that your snuff is radically different from the producers and directors of the show. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes only the people behind the scenes do.

Maybe they hate what she's doing, maybe they don't but all my experience on CW shows (and I watch and read up on a lot) is to the contrary and tells me that if they fucking hated her takes they'd let her know. I've seen KC in at least 4 other roles and bitchy, angergirl isn't the only thing she can play or even what she's best at.

Laurel is the only example I've ever seen of her work that has me scratching my head which is why I categorically disagree with dumping it all at KC's feet.

Also...what blixie said.

Edited December 7, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

Sure they could fire her but that would mean buying out the contract. Now if she only signed for 3 seasons...welp then she could be written out no problems and we are in the 3rd season....so who knows.

 

I think they legit thought they were doing things that would work and it didn't.  So they continue to try and reinvent the Laurel wheel.  I just think at this point the Laurel wheel has fallen off the Arrow truck and they are running off the Laurel donut that will only last so long. 

 

But that's just my opinion.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Now, I'm not always a fan of Laurel, but I'm pretty sure the character and actress aren't going anywhere, so I've made my peace with it.  Which has become a good thing, because in watching, I feel like KC is happier that Laurel is not so much of a passive victim anymore.  She's getting to be more proactive, and I think it shows.  Laurel and KC both seem to be having more fun.  I like it.

She's never going to be like her sister, but I think that's a good thing.  She can be Laurel and a canary  (however that unfolds).  I am looking forward to seeing how it happens, and how the showrunners/writers will pull it off.

[catrox14]

I'm sure KC is happier because she gets to be Black Canary.  She has said as much.

[KirkB]

I'm sure KC is happier because she gets to be Black Canary.  She has said as much.

 

No doubt, but it's weird. If that was the plan all along, as the EP's have said they should have had her from the beginning, the show should have been building Laurel up to this point for the last two seasons, not dumping it on the audience in half a dozen episodes. They had many, many opportunities in the first season alone to show us Laurel as a fighter, or a cop, or just someone interested in martial arts at least. Set up the precedence. Rapid and unexplained character development like this is usually the hallmark of bankrupt creators. I don't think that's the case here though, because they have done so well with Oliver and Diggle and Felicity and Quentin and Moira, not to mention Barry. The failure seems to be in Laurel. I can't even fault Katie Cassidy, not entirely, because I believe she is doing the best she can with what she's been given. The problem is even the greatest actor in the world can only do SO much with crap writing and let's face it, Katie Cassidy is not anywhere near that level. As far as I can tell, the only good that could come of this is if they put her in the costume, make her a super fighter, give her three whole episodes to herself, finally turning her into the Black Canary as she was always meant to be (because of comics!) and it STILL fails to win over fans, they will finally come to understand the level of dislike for Laurel Lance. I doubt they can remove her from the show entirely but maybe they can pull her role back to levels where she is not in most episodes and no one really notices.

Edited December 7, 2014 by KirkB

[calliope1975]

I'm sure the answer is Because Comics! but I'd be more apt to believe that Laurel would one day (in many, many years) be able to competently fight crime if Ted Grant had been an MMA fighter. Mostly because I've been watching Kingdom, but when it's more believable to me that Nick Jonas could become a vigilante and not Laurel Lance, there's a problem. 

 

I'm going to (probably mistakenly) assume that Laurel is learning more than just boxing since she does have the tonfa. Not that I want to see it, but I hope it's at least mentioned. 

[BkWurm1]

but all my experience on CW shows (and I watch and read up on a lot) is to the contrary and tells me that if they fucking hated her takes they'd let her know.

 

 I tend to agree.  They clearly don't hate what she is doing, but then hate is a very strong word.  On the opposite end of the spectrum is love and I can't imagine they completely love what she is doing since it has yet to have win over a slew of new hearts.  I have a feeling that they aren't sure what works so mixed messages are probably both sent and received by all parties.  I think they have Katie Cassidy's back and admire her as a person probably as an actor since that is the message they consistently send but I've also heard in that message that they've heard the complaints from viewers and know something isn't connecting. 

 

They are currently doubled down on 'viewers are impatient to see her as Canary' hence some kind of a rush but  also think they've heard/decided that KC pulls off angry and maybe even mean since it seems what I'd consider mean moments are now often specifically written into the script (like attacking the guy in the hospital) and that is where I wonder if the mixed messages are originating from. 

 

They are using Laurel's anger over her sister's death as fuel for her transformation into a masked street fighter.  So I suspect that KC is trying to inject that constant rage into everything and that is where I think there is a problem since it doesn't let a viewer like me in.  I'm not going to connect to her rage, I can understand it, but if she doesn't offer softer moments, it's all for nothing.  I used to at the very least connect with her and her father but now she is including him in her unpleasant response to life.

 

Maybe they've told her to be mad and the directors probably have the same notes so perhaps they think mad works for everything but I can't agree and I really don't think the writers mean to write her as trembling with rage ever second of every day.  It's exhausting and dull.

[insubordination]

I think their best chance to salvage her character would have been to turn her into a villain/Arrow's enemy in S2 (with or without knowing that Oliver=Arrow). I can see her pulling off that role because she had the anger from Tommy death and Sara being back -and back with Ollie - + alcohol & substance abuse to get her to a place where that would be convincing.  She could have trained off-screen with someone badass and come back into town. Maybe she could have been redeemed by Sara and/or Oliver down the track. I might have been on board with that.

 

 

No doubt, but it's weird. If that was the plan all along

 

 Did they always plan for Sara as 1st Canary and Laurel as 2nd? If so, they could have done a much better job. I wonder when exactly they decided to kill off Sara.   I liked Sara (esp as Canary), but even I thought she (+Lance family drama) got too many scenes S2b, and the Oliver/Sara hook-up was badly received either 'cos of the sister-swapping or Olicity (and lack of build-up).

 

Why did they give Sara so much screen time if they were gonna kill her off all along? Why did they try to make Sara more sympathetic than Laurel (adding the party thing for example)?

 

I'd love to know what went down. I don't think they realized how popular CL/Canary was until she was dead.

[blixie]

 

I've seen KC in at least 4 other roles and bitchy, angergirl isn't the only thing she can play or even what she's best at.

 

Exactly! Ella on MP was fantastic because she was warm and had a huge heart despite her vixen exterior. She was the best most authentic person on that show, and Katie was a DELIGHT. The only other time I hated KC was on Super Natural as Ruby, but at least there playing a Demon I don't think she was expected to be layered and multi-dimensional, she was a B villain in a fairly awful strike shortened season three.

 

She's very capable of giving a different kind of performance, and that if they really had some serious issue with her interpretation of Laurel they would have ran her out of dodge by now. Instead they killed a beloved actress and character to facilitate her hero story, and most importantly have not changed a thing about the way they write her, aka forcing her into stories where she doesn't belong, and has not EARNED the tolerance, much less the goodwill of the audience.

[formerlyfreedom]

Not really seeing anything new in the posts here recently. The length of Katie Cassidy's contract is not known, how the directors and producers interact and feel about her is not known. Let’s move along now. If there is actual hard news coming out about any of this, yes, it can be discussed (and if you have any facts about the actual length of KC's contract, that belongs in the Slings and Arrows: Behind the Scenes topic), but the conversation happening right now, has happened before. Several times, by my estimate, in the 48 pages of post.

 

So let's take it back to new conversation, please?

[quarks]

And now, Laurel:

 

This episode was perhaps the best encapsulation this season of all of the problems this show is having with this character: even when Laurel is connected to the plot, she still manages to be sidelined. It's amazing. She had one brief scene with Thea, one brief scene with Quentin, and then spent the rest of the episode going off and doing her own thing.  Which is problematic enough in other episodes, but absolutely stands out here, when the rest of the episode is primarily driven by the murder of her own sister.  Even someone on another show who didn't even show up on screen was more involved in the plot.

 

Part of this was because storywise, the episode was trying to do the same thing with Laurel as it did (more successfully) with Ray: set these two up as superheroes. And so, to accomplish that, those two were given separate storylines. The difference is, of course that everything with Ray was new (well, except the motivation by death part.)  We didn't know about his girlfriend's death or the shrinking thing, which told us why he was doing this and how he was doing this. 

 

We did know all of this with Laurel, so except for the bit about Dinah possibly being psychic, there was nothing new here. And that is a huge problem in an episode which also had Malcolm's manipulations, the League of Assassins, a duel to the death, someone cheerfully announcing they are going to save this city with a robot suit, the apparent death of a major character, Hong Kong flashbacks, a new bioterrorism weapon, and drinks at Verdant. What I'm saying is, there was a lot going on here, and some of it needed a lot more time to breathe (the Hong Kong flashbacks and Oliver's farewells to everyone.)  And instead, the show spent time on scenes with Laurel and Dinah which told us that a) Sara is dead, b) Sara was involved with some really bad people. If either had been needed for in-episode narration, I would have accepted this, but we already knew both things from the initial scene where the League of Assassins captured Oliver, which meant that instead of getting a moment to understand even a minor thing like why Felicity hasn't done something techy to keep her phone from being tracked (which, since she works with the Arrow, seems important) or why Oliver wasn't using gloves, or having moments to let certain scenes breathe, we got a retread of things we already knew. 

 

And even in a plot where she was narratively unimportant, Laurel still managed to fail. Let's see:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, 6: 1, lying to both of her parents about Sara, 2, lying so badly that her mother instantly picks up on it, 3, doing this at Christmas, which is just mean, 4, forcing her mother to keep a secret from her ex-husband, because 5, she (that is, Laurel) can't stand to lose anyone else, which this is not the point, Laurel.  Telling your father the truth is not about you, it's about not keeping him in the false hope that he'll get to see Sara again. It's also about not lying to your father about something that is incredibly important. 6, dragging her mother to a cemetery at night which WTF, Laurel? 7, Jumping on the cops for not using search warrants after she, in just this season alone, physically attacked a witness, tried to kill a murder suspect, went after a wife abuser using confidential evidence (and also not getting him arrested), getting rid of Ted Grant's legal files, and other things I'm probably forgetting so, like, hypocrisy much, Laurel?  Which brings me to:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a lawyer, 3: Amazingly, all in one sentence. 1, Laurel, last I checked, search warrants have to be issued by a judge which is why, frequently, cops needing a search warrant contact the district attorney's office to expedite getting them, so in other words, Laurel, this search warrant issue? Not entirely on the cops.  2, if search warrants are all that important to you (and this is the first time the show has ever suggested they are) then why on earth haven't you been using them? The Fourth Amendment just applies to cops, not you, even though you are also in law enforcement? 3, Laurel, if the cops aren't using search warrants but are pressing charges, then your job, as an ADA, is to see if you can find probable cause or some other reason why that search was legal.  

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, 2: 1, Despite telling everyone that Sara's death has to be a deep, deep dark secret, she manages to tell two people about it by the end of the episode. Bonus points that she manages to pick two of the only three characters on either show who don't happen to know Oliver's secret, 2, as everyone else is suiting up, making plans for robot costumes, or having nice shirtless duels on snowy mountaintops, Laurel is...standing in a graveyard, wondering, wondering, wondering....

[apinknightmare]

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, 2: 1, Despite telling everyone that Sara's death has to be a deep, deep dark secret, she manages to tell two people about it by the end of the episode. Bonus points that she manages to pick two of the only three characters on either show who don't happen to know Oliver's secret, 2, as everyone else is suiting up, making plans for robot costumes, or having nice shirtless duels on snowy mountaintops, Laurel is...standing in a graveyard, wondering, wondering, wondering....

 

Also, if Sara's death is so souper seekrit, maybe stop going to her grave? Especially since it seems to be in Starling City's only cemetery?