Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[writersblock51]

I have to admit, the ridiculousness of the way they've been writing Laurel this season is a lot easier to enjoy now that I'm not constantly thinking "they killed Sara for this."  

This is a very good point and an angle I hadn't considered.

 

On the other hand, Laurel's 'island' of Season 2 seems paltry in comparison to her actions now, IMO.  And she spent S3 trying to be a hero, having had her "island" or crucible.  The EPs have said that Laurel is the full fledged Black Canary now, too.  Yet... she's not behaving heroically.  At least, I don't think she is.   And it's hard to imagine that THIS is what the show envisioned when they decided to kill Sara off last year to propel Laurel on her journey. 

 

No hero is perfect, I get that.   There's a long list of flawed heroes all over the comics, on TV and in movies.  What I wish the show would do going forward then is to embrace Laurel as a flawed hero who still struggles, a LOT (as evidenced by this season alone), and has a LOT more self awareness. 

 

I find it painful to watch a character we've been told, repeatedly, is smart and kind (always "wants to save the world") be so contrary.  She's astonishingly bad at listening to anyone's advice but her own.  Her decisions have a solid history of producing disastrous results which she doesn't learn from.  She's impulsive, which is also contradictory for someone who planned their life out in minute detail for so long and is fairly organized (I'm thinking back to her apartment, I guess).  She's selfish.  It's not just my opinion on that part, either - other characters on screen are calling her out on it because it's blatantly obvious.  Yet she plods forward, bodies and broken souls left in her wake.  How is any of that heroic, especially for someone with the rich comic book history of Black Canary? 

 

Black Canary was no saint, I know that.  She's flawed and makes mistakes.  She struggles in relationships.  Yet I find any incarnation of her still more heroic than a liability.  I don't know what the show plans to do with Laurel to get her out of this mess they've made for her. Any redemption that doesn't involve a boatload of self awareness, real remorse and some way of repairing relationships with genuine warmth and concern for others is going to feel contrived and unearned.

[catrox14]

.....

 

Addendum:

 

Sam and Dean Winchester:  WTF are these people doing? Like seriously, even WE wouldn't do that.  Damn. 

[Starfish35]

Ok, you know I said I probably would eventually get on board the rage train? Well consider me on board.

theoriginaldramaqueen asked:

Get your butt on tumblr and answer to the pissed off Laurel fans. Its as if every season you find a way to piss us off! Why must bringing Sara back be at the expense of Laurel's character! Laurel put her sister to rest in canaries!

How is it at the expense of Laurel’s character? I think Laurel has been brave and courageous in order to bring her sister back to life.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/131726917974/get-your-butt-on-tumblr-and-answer-to-the-pissed

robinthesidekick asked:

Drama again at the expense of Laurel's character. She is never going to be written to be in the right is she?

She brought her sister back from the dead. I’m having a difficult time figuring out how she could possibly be MORE in the right.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/131726973289/drama-again-at-the-expense-of-laurels-character

I know we all knew or strongly suspected this would be the case, but somehow I wasn't really upset about the whole thing until seeing Marc try to justify it. Now, I'm just growling. :(

[writersblock51]

I'm hoping he's being saracastic.  He's played both sides of the coin before, in fact he does it all the time.  Furthermore, he admits he leans toward the hyperbolic.

 

ETA: Unless, much like after Sara was killed, he's in denial about the negative response and truly 'doesn't get it.'

 

UGH

Edited October 23, 2015 by writersblock51

[Carrie Ann]

I'm hoping he's being saracastic.  He's played both sides of the coin before, in fact he does it all the time.  Furthermore, he admits he leans toward the hyperbolic.

 

ETA: Unless, much like after Sara was killed, he's in denial about the negative response and truly 'doesn't get it.'

 

UGH

 

Yeah, it's the latter. Good news is he's not the only person who runs this show anymore! And the other person wrote this episode, and allowed Nyssa to voice all the things wrong with Laurel's actions! Now, I still don't think LL will be the one who faces lasting consequences, and yeah, I think they'll let her off the hook and someday force Sara to thank her for bringing her back, etc. etc., but it's nice to believe that at least one person with power in the writers' room sees some problems with Laurel and her actions.

[tangerine95]

IMO he's playing both sides.He does it all the time.He gave two totally different answers to the question of how Laurel's action are supposed to be seen.He said its both up to debate for the audience and now he says it brave.And I don't think anyone thought brave from the last episode.

He might have said he was suprised by the negative response but he was quick to decide to bring Sara back so he cares about fan response.Why write Laurel in a way that will look bad even to her fans judging by their complaining?I don't understand why write it so that everyone is against it and its presented clearly as wrong and then expect people to side with an already unpopular character over everyone on the show.I can't believe they would be that dumb after having experienced backlash over problematic storylines last season.

[Chaser]

There was a heavy, vocal negative reaction to Laurel in 4x03. I could see some of these responses as damage control.

[calliope1975]

It's also possible that MG is thinking the same question that was asked here in one of the threads - you (the audience) wanted Sara back. We gave her back to you. What's the problem? If so, that tells me he's a terrible story teller with no understanding of characterization. 

[KenyaJ]

MG is an idiot if he couldn't anticipate this reaction. Nevertheless,

 

Get your butt on tumblr and answer to the pissed off Laurel fans.

 

This is rude as hell. I'm appalled.

[AyChihuahua]

It's also possible that MG is thinking the same question that was asked here in one of the threads - you (the audience) wanted Sara back. We gave her back to you. What's the problem? If so, that tells me he's a terrible story teller with no understanding of characterization. 

They say there are no dumb questions, but man, that is a dumb question.  "You wanted Sara back, she's back, why you not happy?"  Like WOW dumb.

This is rude as hell. I'm appalled.

I can't judge.  I called him actual names on Twitter after RAG's plot-induced homophobia resulted in Nyssa being forced to marry Oliver. 

[hogwash]

I think I get it. If a villian or time traveler had revived Sara, Team Arrow would have to investigate what happened, try to find/fix Sara, take down whoever did it, figure out how/why they did it, and so on. AKA a giant clusterfuck. They were on a timetable and didn't want it to consume the first half of the season. After the S03's bleh "who killed Sara?" arc (REALLY, SHOW??? BRAINWASHED NINJA THEA?! REALLY???), it's understandable that they would want to avoid all that.

 

So they needed it to be someone who would be dumb/stubborn enough to do something like this, someone who wouldn't really need an actual or remotely logical motive to do it, someone Team Arrow wouldn't go after, AND someone who was close enough to Team Arrow to eventually (kinda?) explain everything. Who fits all that better than Laurel? Especially, the way they've written her so far....

 

As far as plot-driven character stuff, it's not the worst they done?? It's not very flattering for Laurel, but...yeah... 

 

BUT, SERIOUSLY?? BRAINWASHED THEA?! SERIOUSLY??

Edited October 23, 2015 by hogwash

[statsgirl]

I understand why it was Laurel who brought back Sara. (I thought it might have been Quentin and DD

but apparently DD is busy hold Ray.

 

What I don't understand is why, having been told by everyone from Thea to Malcolm to Nyssa to Oliver indirectly when he apologized to Thea for the effects of Pitting her, Laurel still didn't have any hesitation or qualms about it.  Did they not learn from s1 when everyone told Laurel to stay away from the Glades and she ended up getting Tommy killed?

[hogwash]

That's what I was wanted to know too. I thought they'd answer all that in 403, but it was almost bizarre how much of an afterthought she was in Nanda Parbat. The worst in 402 was just her seemingly manipulating Thea into helping her, but then 403 just piled on what a stupid/selfish thing she was doing with still no explanation as to why she was doing it. 

 

I can't tell if we're supposed to think this bullheaded stupidity is based on her (insubstantial) sisterly relationship with Sara. Or if she (somehow) knows this is something Sara would want? Or she's re-grieving(??) after a year? Maybe she just wanted to try it out?? No indication whatsoever. She just wants her sister back for some reason. 

 

I'm almost tempted to list Oliver's (direct/indirect) consequences to nix the annoying "Oliver did it, too!" bs. Hopefully, all the warnings and naysaying means she will actually face the consequences. 

[tarotx]

If the show didn't want to deal with time travel or a villain bringing back Sara, imo the logical answer is to have it be Thea's idea. Give the the girl nightmares and a hope that all her issues will be fixed by saving Sara. Nothing much needed changing. Laurel's story about trying to save both Thea and Sara would be on better footing. The writers are just stupid when it comes to Laurel. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by tarotx

[HighwayFlower]

They chose the lazy way, and thought that because we wanted Sara back, we would love Laurel for it.

FAIL!!

[kismet]

I'm not surprised by the fact that LL brought back SL in the way she did. She is 100% in character in all of her actions in s4. From her reality and her truth, she is in the right, bold and courageous. It's all a matter of perspective. The problem is a lot of people's perspective differs from LL's perspective both in-show and out-of-show.

 

I am surprised the writers decided to go the route they did because I would assume that at some point they might actual want to start writing LL in accordance to the spiel they always try to sell us about who LL is as a character. But it is what it is, they write what they write for whatever reasons they do. Theories may vary as to why.

 

As for MG's tumblr confessions, they are just spin or perhaps MG's typical inability to see beyond whatever story, character or ideas he has in his head. Either way were we expecting MG to say anything different? He has always defended his character and story, regardless of how they are faring in the realm of public opinion.

[hogwash]

I couldn't really see Thea making such a unilateral decision for Sara. Especially, if Oliver still told her the pit was responsible for the bloodlust. Laurel, on the other hand, does it every season.

[Primal Slayer]

MG is an idiot if he couldn't anticipate this reaction. Nevertheless,

This is rude as hell. I'm appalled.

That's tame compared to what the actors have to face. But this was one of the few times i agreed with someone being "rude". I separate charecters from actors but MG is who approves these scripts and helps decide what direction to go in so on a writer/showrunner front i can't stand him.

[tarotx]

Laurel's storyline shouldn't be the stupid. I'm sick of it. It's the same ol same ol every time. Thea is crazy and it makes a sort of sense that undoing the murder could help out. It should have been Rip or a bad guy doing it but Thea's a better option than Laurel imo. This has really pushed Laurel into a territory that really questions her thinking ability.

Edited October 23, 2015 by tarotx

[KenyaJ]

That's tame compared to what the actors have to face. But this was one of the few times i agreed with someone being "rude". I separate charecters from actors but MG is who approves these scripts and helps decide what direction to go in so on a writer/showrunner front i can't stand him.

 

Yeah, I just don't think there's any justification for demanding that someone get there butt over to Tumblr to answer to or take abuse from fans. Ever. He's a better person than I am for not responding in kind.

[bijoux]

I rewatched the pilot and 1x02 today and I was pretty shocked that Katie Cassidy did much better than she is doing now. She's no Meryl Streep and Laurel was all over the place, but I felt her acting was much more natural and there was, dare I say it, some nuance. Like when Tommy questions her presence at the groundbreaking ceremony for applied sciences. And she's all, "Is that jealousy?" After he sort of nixes that there is a flash of disappointment. Blink and you'll miss it but it's there. Was KC trying more when she was more central to the show?

Still the same self-centred Laurel though. Quentin gets protection for her, Joanna and Emily Nocenti, and she up in his grill refusing something completely reasonable. And if that's something she wants for herself, fine. But, maybe ask Joanna and Emily whether they'd actually like the police protecting them from the mob?

[Chaser]

I always felt her body language was a bit stiff but I don't recall the 'stance.' Did she do that in S1?

I agree with her acting. It just changed. It's the weirdest thing.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Still the same self-centred Laurel though. Quentin gets protection for her, Joanna and Emily Nocenti, and she up in his grill refusing something completely reasonable. And if that's something she wants for herself, fine. But, maybe ask Joanna and Emily whether they'd actually like the police protecting them from the mob?

Seriously, so dumb.  The frigging Triad's after you and you're all "I don't need no stinkin' police protection!"  If the Triad were after me, I'd be taking ALLLLLLL the police protection.

 

I really think KC got some unfortunate plastic surgery, and now she's over-Botoxing.  Her face rarely moves, which is a problem for an actress.  The rest of the actors generally have mobile, expressive faces.  I am not that great at reading emotions from facial expressions, except for more extreme emotions, but I get a lot more from the rest of the main cast than from KC.  I can almost never tell what emotion Laurel is supposed to be feeling.

Edited October 25, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

I always felt her body language was a bit stiff but I don't recall the 'stance.' Did she do that in S1?

.

  

Not in the first two episodes. Maybe that one's tied with BC? I'm so confused right now.

Seriously, so dumb.  The frigging Triad's after you and you're all "I don't need no stinkin' police protection!"  If the Triad were after me, I'd be taking ALLLLLLL the police protection.

Exactly. All the donuts you want at my house, officer. Bring your friends.

[kismet]

I think it might be a combination. I think the writers were actually writing a better character in s1 and KC was acting better. I feel like the writers have given up writing a good story/character for LL. And I feel like KC has honed in on certain aspects of LL character that perhaps are not what resound with a universal audience. IMO she has lost a lot of her softness, nuances and vulnerabilities for the sake of being considered strong & tenacious. She tends to seem to talk like LL can't be strong without being bull-headed and stubborn. Like somehow if she shows softness, she shows weakness.

 

Even in all of her moments during SL's resurrection there were times when she could have taken a more gentle approach showed some vulnerability but instead every moment was either self-righteous, extremely stoic or slightly unhinged. TQ looked more emotionally invested in SL & SL's outcome than her sister, which is an odd acting choice by KC. A few teara or an emotional moment that was about just SL would have done a lot to resonate with me as an audience member that what LL was doing was about more than just LL.

[Sakura12]

I think KC is trying so hard to come across as a badass that she's coming across like a robot, all stiff and emotionless. CL already being a real life badass focused more on making Sara human. She wasn't afraid to show Sara vulnerabilities and emotions, whenever she was with her family or anyone else besides Sin or Team Arrow her shoulders were hunched, her head was down like she was trying to make herself as small as possible which in turn made her more likable. 

 

If Laurel showed more emotion over what was happening with Sara it would've made a big difference. Which you can see with Nyssa, she looked absolutely heartbroken at what was happening to her beloved. While Laurel was staring at her with a blank face. What emotion was she going for? Did she regret what she did at all? Did seeing her sister like a feral animal make her happy? sad? Does she care that Sara has yet another trauma to work through? You can't tell anything without a facial expression. 

[KenyaJ]

I think KC is trying so hard to come across as a badass that she's coming across like a robot, all stiff and emotionless.

 

... when she's not coming across as aggressive and angry, which is her only other setting.  For instance, in the scene after Thea and Oliver's fight in The Candidate, after Thea yells at Oliver, Laurel steps forward and is all "What's going on? What happened to Thea?" That moment felt like it called for honest confusion and concern about a friend/roommate. Instead, KC played it in a confrontational, accusatory way. It was so unnecessary and off-putting, but that's the way Laurel always is.

 

I just wish KC would realize there are other ways to portray Laurel as a badass than always making her so strident and harsh. In fact, the moments when Laurel actually is a badass rarely stand out because KC's performance is so one note.

[Genki]

I think KC & Laurel lost me acting-wise, in S2, but I credited it to her having "dead-eyes". I can't connect to her character because she doesn't connect Laurel's emotions with her eyes.

 

Like Kristen Bell, KC uses a lot of her breathing to emote, but KB also uses her eyes and body language, which KC does not. This becomes really noticeable when you look at KC as a background player in a team scene. Especially since I notice other actors doing stuff when they are in background and KC not so much.

 

She is better since S3, but now I don't like Laurel as a character so much that nothing will save her for me.

[bijoux]

... when she's not coming across as aggressive and angry, which is her only other setting.  For instance, in the scene after Thea and Oliver's fight in The Candidate, after Thea yells at Oliver, Laurel steps forward and is all "What's going on? What happened to Thea?" That moment felt like it called for honest confusion and concern about a friend/roommate. Instead, KC played it in a confrontational, accusatory way. It was so unnecessary and off-putting, but that's the way Laurel always is.

 

It's her one distinctive tone she uses this season. It's a flat line, then this. She used it when Laurel and Thea came for Oliver. "We're hoping that not the case. We're hoping... something about Oliver still being the Arrow." She used it when she demanded Malcolm resurrect Sara. She also used it at least once in the lair. All of these should be different situations and that's the problem.

I'm on 1x03. Still no weird posturing but her stance after "taking down" Max Fuller is hilarious. I laughed the first time I saw her pounding her fist. I laughed again now. Also, Joanna is so beautiful and a decent actress. Why couldn't we have kept her?

[yellowfred]

Also, Joanna is so beautiful and a decent actress. Why couldn't we have kept her?

 

Probably because the writers decided to get rid of the whole handful of enjoyable things about Laurel's story in the first season.  They killed Tommy, nixed all the CNRI/helping the downtrodden stuff; naturally they also had to get rid of Laurel's only friend.  

[bijoux]

I have to admit I do not miss the CNRI stuff one single bit. It ate up so much screen time. Joanna is the exception.

[tangerine95]

The CNRI stuff was so boring to me,I hated it.My biggest issue with season 1 Laurel was how boring she was.She was such a generic CW love interest,there was nothing interesting there.

I prefer season 2 Laurel because she was easy to fast forward.

But I do think KC's acting was better in season 1 though that's not saying much.Its been so bad in season 4 so far.I think its just that KC isn't interested in this storyline so she doesn't try too much.I also agree she's trying to seem badass by being stoic and looking angry all the time.

[dtissagirl]

The first episode I clearly remember noticing the Blank Stare of Nothingness was the one in late S1, that Laurel had to protect the little kid from Gunn from Angel.

 

Before that, Laurel bored me immensely, but I wasn't that much bothered by the acting. I could see the glaring writing problems from the pilot, but I was way way WAY more bothered by the black hole of anti-chem in Laurel/Oliver than Laurel herself. But after that one episode, all I ever noticed in her scenes was the lack of emoting, or the one-note tone. Her acting choices have been taking me right out of the scenes since then.

 

And as a comparison -- I didn't care for Stephen's acting in S1 AT ALL. Some of it was on me -- I wasn't willing to like him because I like other versions of Oliver Queen better. Some of it were his hilariously stiff arms, and the fact that he sometimes talked too slow, which made his timing a bit off. But I think he did that because when he talks fast his voice gets squeaker? And he was trying to avoid that at all costs. Present time Oliver needed to be growly and Batman at all times, so he slowed down speech for that. But those things got adjusted as the season went on, and by S2 I actually enjoyed his acting choices. KC only got worse.

Edited October 26, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

Before that, Laurel bored me immensely, but I wasn't that much bothered by the acting. I could see the glaring writing problems from the pilot, but I was way way WAY more bothered by the black hole of anti-chem in Laurel/Oliver than Laurel herself. But after that one episode, all I ever noticed in her scenes was the lack of emoting, or the one-note tone. Her acting choices have been taking me right out of the scenes since then.

 

This i actually my rection now and I'm surprised because I had this notion in my mind that the acting was always the problem. I guess it all sort of melded together. Though there are still problems on the front as well, I won't lie. Like, I still don't get what expression she was going when Oliver shows Laurel his scars.

[looptab]

 

Like Kristen Bell, KC uses a lot of her breathing to emote

I hate that heavy-breathing with every fiber of my being. So weird and distracting.

 

 "We're hoping that not the case. We're hoping... something about Oliver still being the Arrow."

It was "blah blah, you can't forget who you are in your bones".

How could you forget such a wonderful line? Shame.

:P

[bijoux]

It was "blah blah, you can't forget who you are in your bones".

How could you forget such a wonderful line? Shame.

:P

I was trying to erase it from long term memory. Blast you.

[Morrigan2575]

KC's "acting" style leaves a lot to be desired and it's not something new. I happened to catch S3 of SPN on TNT recently (I love that show but it is always on TNT) and she had most of the same problems as Ruby. The only difference is that Ruby was supposed to be an evil/sarcastic bitch in S3 so her acting worked but that's not who/what Laurel is intended to be in Arrow so it's a total disconnect.

 

The first time I really paid enough attention to notice the bad acting was in the Tommy/Laurel/Malcolm dinner scene in S1 (don't know the episode).  However, you have JB being less hammy then he is now, and Colin Colin Donnel just rocking that scene - and then you had KC, doing the deep heaving breath of self righteous anger and blank stare.  After that I noticed it more often, she also did a lot of the Tom Welling patented Blank Stare of Nothingness in S1.

 

I noticed the arms crossing thing in S2, I don't think KC knows what to do with her body/arms in a scene so she almost always has them crossed or has something in them (file/briefcase, etc).  

 

Now it's like a combination of all of her worst acting choices manifesting in every single episode

Deep Heaving Breath, deliver line

Look Down/Look Up, deliver line

Arms Crossed

Blank Stare of Nothingness

 

I was live chatting 402 with some friends and the Thea/Oliver/Laurel scene at the end where, Oliver/Thea are having this deep emotional discussion and Laurel walks in, KC has this look on her face, I actually typed out something about her having a bitchy look on her face that was totally inappropriate for the scene.

 

There are times when actors who aren't very good can elevate their game playing off of a better actor.  KC only seems to be able to improve in scenes with PB, otherwise she just stands out like a sore thumb; case in point 403 scenes with Laurel, Thea, Malcolm and Nyssa, 

 

Of course, this is all JMO others may think she's fantastic but I don't see it.  IMO she's very paint by the numbers and I keep going back to DR's comment about actors who give you nothing and just wait to say their lines...yeah that's what I think of KC.

[KirkB]

When Arrow first started Laurel made no impression on me. I didn't love her, I didn't hate her, I barely remembered she was even there until they went out of their way to put her in a scene, there were whole episodes where she was absent and this had to be pointed out to me, and every time it came up I found myself wondering why Oliver and Tommy were ever so in love with her. She got more focus in season two with an addict storyline which didn't seem to go anywhere, and they needed to so desperately find a way to make her relevant to the narrative they actually had the villain show up at her door and tell her what was going on. Once Sara died and she suddenly decided to be the Black Canary I decided I'd had enough and began to actually hate her because she was eating up the screentime of characters I was actually more interested in. What's going on this season can't make it any worse for me but it's not doing anything to reverse my opinion. If Laurel Lance disappeared from the show I would be enthused. A lot of this is because of KC's acting but the writers and directors have to share some of the blame because they're either allowing her to make these choices or even actively encouraging it.

Edited October 26, 2015 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

I blame the writing way MORE than I blame KC's acting choices. And the behind the scenes shenanigans of stripping Laurel of her narrative roles didn't help either [although I've gone past the frustration, and now I find it entertaining/great for mocking]. But the thing is -- the acting is right in our faces before everything else, it's the thing *we see*. And at least for me -- I'm a very very visual person -- it's the thing that remains in my mind from previous episodes, when I'm watching new eps.

[looptab]

 

Deep Heaving Breath, deliver line

Look Down/Look Up, deliver line

Arms Crossed

Blank Stare of Nothingness

 

New Drinking Game!

[AyChihuahua]

The first episode I clearly remember noticing the Blank Stare of Nothingness was the one in late S1, that Laurel had to protect the little kid from Gunn from Angel.

 

Before that, Laurel bored me immensely, but I wasn't that much bothered by the acting. I could see the glaring writing problems from the pilot, but I was way way WAY more bothered by the black hole of anti-chem in Laurel/Oliver than Laurel herself. But after that one episode, all I ever noticed in her scenes was the lack of emoting, or the one-note tone. Her acting choices have been taking me right out of the scenes since then.

 

And as a comparison -- I didn't care for Stephen's acting in S1 AT ALL. Some of it was on me -- I wasn't willing to like him because I like other versions of Oliver Queen better. Some of it were his hilariously stiff arms, and the fact that he sometimes talked too slow, which made his timing a bit off. But I think he did that because when he talks fast his voice gets squeaker? And he was trying to avoid that at all costs. Present time Oliver needed to be growly and Batman at all times, so he slowed down speech for that. But those things got adjusted as the season went on, and by S2 I actually enjoyed his acting choices. KC only got worse.

I was so disappointed that Gunn went bad.

 

Yeah, I didn't think SA was all that great in S1, either.  I know he was going for layers, guy actually dead inside pretending to be guy not dead inside and also super-shallow, but mostly I just got super stiff and kind of boring.  I loved his action stuff right from the beginning, though.  And importantly, SA has really come into his own, and I enjoy seeing people improving and doing well.  I really do not understand why KC has gotten so much worse, unless it is just that her morale is in the crapper bc the writers treat LL so terribly (which they do...KC is, IMO, a very limited actress, but the writers have done LL wrong right from the pilot, and I will never ever understand it).

[dtissagirl]

I think KC brings in a very limited view of what being "badass" means to the character, and it shows. And copping to my biases, I don't particularly care for "badass" as a story trope [it tends to go nowhere wrt to character development], so the more a character is written/acted as if that is their most defining trait, the less interest I find in them. And "badass", air quotes required, has been Laurel's solo schtick for a pretty long while now.

 

And from interviews, she seems to subscribe to the idea that "strong female character" is not only a thing [it's not], but that it means 1. physically strong, and 2. a lady character that mostly has typical cis-het male characteristics [stoic, tough, reigning in emotions, etc], and I cannot stand that kind of take on principle.

[quarks]

 Also, Joanna is so beautiful and a decent actress. Why couldn't we have kept her?

 

I think Joanna was a casualty of Arrow's decision to move away from their original concept, which was to have Laurel fighting bad guys through the law, and Oliver fighting bad guys through vigilantism, occasionally forced to work together so that a) Laurel and the Hood would fall in love, and b) Laurel would realize that the law couldn't handle everything and Oliver would realize that vigilantism isn't always the right approach. There's some vestiges of this in episodes 2 and 4.

 

The problem was that Arrow also wanted to present Oliver as a potential hero/show his hero's journey, and for that to work, and for Starling/Star City to even need a vigilante, the law, aka Laurel, had to be incompetent. There's a real disconnect in episode 2 with the bad guys running around saying "LAUREL LANCE IS AFTER US OH NO SHE'S AN ATTORNEY THIS WILL NEVER END" and what actually happened on the show, which was that Laurel got attacked (so that Oliver and Diggle could be heroic) and Oliver, not Laurel, got the evidence to win the case. Episodes 4, 10 and 13 provide additional examples of the problem. I think the writers realized this while writing episode 4. Shortly after that, Laurel's role on the show was massively reduced, which included mostly sending Joanna off on a bus, and replacing the CRNI set with a more generic DA office set that Arrow was able to use (and continues to use) for other generic office or action scenes by shifting office furniture around and moving that one wall.

[bethy]

I blame the writing way MORE than I blame KC's acting choices. And the behind the scenes shenanigans of stripping Laurel of her narrative roles didn't help either [although I've gone past the frustration, and now I find it entertaining/great for mocking]. But the thing is -- the acting is right in our faces before everything else, it's the thing *we see*. And at least for me -- I'm a very very visual person -- it's the thing that remains in my mind from previous episodes, when I'm watching new eps.

 

I've wondered about how the director can impact some of this. Isn't it the director's job to make suggestions to actors about how to present a scene? Is no one saying, "Hey, Katie, when the other actors are saying their lines, one thing you could do is respond in the background to help the whole scene feel organic." Do not regular directors not feel comfortable doing that? Do the regular directors not have the responsibility to make those suggestions? I mean, no one has to say, "Hey, you look like a robot; try being engaged in the scene even when you don't have a line," but couldn't someone provide her with guidance? It seems odd to me. 

[KirkB]

See, that's the thing. The fact that KC has been doing pretty much the same thing the whole series tells me either 1)This is the performance they want out of her or 2) Everyone involved has just given up bothering to tell her otherwise. But the second one only works if she has some sort of leverage, since if you're not correctly doing the job you've been hired for you don't usually get to keep doing that job for long. So either she has some kind of blackmail on the show runners, someone higher up than them (like maybe the network) has made her basically untouchable, neither of which seems likely, or else they simply don't have a problem with what she's doing or how she's doing it. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

It think this is the CW. They consistently hire TERRIBLE ACTORS based on looks rather than talent. Everyone knows that. Directors who accept jobs on CW shows are aware of that. And the directors aren't so much there to bring out in-depth thought out performances, as they're there to keep consistency.

 

I have no idea if there's been an actual conscious decision that this the end all and be all of KC's consistency, but on an 8 day shoot? A director for hire is not gonna waste time on stuff like that. That director also wants to come back to the show again, so they'll try not to upset one of the regular actors.

[kismet]

KC consistency in her acting choices and the progressive worsening of them over the past 4 years to me indicate that they either want this performance (why?, IDK) or they are done trying to fix it (probably more logical). The writers consistency in writing crappy stories for LL to me indicate that they are out of options for the character, uninspired to write about her and have hit a few seasons road block. The last time they spent a substantial amount of effort on the character and the story was the s2 addiction story and the story was inconsistent in delivery from script to screen at best.

 

I may not agree with KC's performances. I am most definitely disappointed in the writing choices. But I will give them each credit that they may not have great accuracy but they certainly have great precision when it comes to the target. Shame, that target no longer interests me on the show and has become a useless target now.

[statsgirl]

 

KC only seems to be able to improve in scenes with PB

I think that's because PB is also a method actor and will rehearse endlessly inside and out so that the end product is more complete and more complex.  The others aren't (although KC said that they got Caity Lotz doing it too when she was on) so it's not as good performance in a scene with them.  And SA especially doesn't have time to do all the method stuff with her because he needs the scene shot and to move on to his next one.

 

Charlotte Ross said that EBR comes to the scene having done her homework but with options on how to play the scene and will change depending on how the other actor(s) see it.  I think KC comes to it with what she wants to do nailed down which is why she works so well with PB because he will take the time to explore things more deeply.

 

Also, Joanna is so beautiful and a decent actress. Why couldn't we have kept her?

Maybe her gigs in Switched at Birth and Drop Dead Diva interfered with the ability to shoot Arrow like JR Ramirez.

 

Maybe it was as quarks said, that Joanna was tied to Laurel fighting bad guys or maybe it was because there was no more room for Joanna.  When they took Laurel out of CNRI and made her an ADA (why?????), there was no real role for Joanna any more.  In season 2, Laurel's own storyline had been encapsulated to the extent that there wasn't a need for any social interactions outside of the ones with Quentin and the ADA whatshisname, and they needed to time for Sara, Roy and Slade.

[Menrva]

The body language displayed by LL/KC is always so unfriendly; arms crossed, hands on hips, face blank. I have no idea if this is a conscious choice on KC's part or if she's unaware of how she appears. And seriously, the arms crossed thing PISSES me off so much. I want to attach an electro shock to her and zap her every time I see this - STOP DOING THAT. 

 

I don't get it - photos of KC when she's not filming or at public events show her smiling and joking and looking totally at ease. Why is none of that ever on display on the show?

 

I have prepared an emergency eye-rolling injury kit for myself. It includes:

A satin eye pillow filled with lavender buds and buckwheat (it does wonders for migraines)

A heating pad, in case I throw my back out

Anti-nausea medications

Alcohol, for both antibacterial purposes and self medication

Cucumber slices to reduce swelling (also for snacking)

 

Am I forgetting anything?

 

Edited because my post was overbearingly bitchy. Now it's just bitchy.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Menrva

[lion10]

I don't agree with this 100% but it's pretty funny in light of her desire to become the Black Canary and resurrect Sara after being told it was a bad idea.