Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[writersblock51]

The arm crossing thing bugs me too and I have no idea if it's a director's choice or an actor's.  But the body language of crossed arms is negative and closed.  Also, I found Laurel's attitude toward Oliver throughout and then when Lance showed up in the lair to be condescending.  Why would she be this way? 

 

After last night's episode, I'm convinced that one of 3 things is happening with Laurel:

 

1) she's mentally losing it and the story will deal with her needing professional help, once it's clear just how far gone she's become to her father and the team

 

or

 

2) the show is writing her this way and completely oblivious to how she's being perceived.  This is the show that overestimated how excited viewers would be when Sara was killed and were shocked at the outrage.  Also - they didn't see that literally fridging Sara last year was a problem.  How do writers who allegedly know the comics write that and not 'get it'?

 

or

 

3) the writers dislike KC or struggle with writing for her/Laurel.  While I don't put much credence to this, I think there's some chance the 2nd part (struggling) is true.  I look at the scene with her, Quentin and Sara when Q first sees Sara there.  The writing for Quentin seems terrific to me, and PB nails his part.  CL just needs to struggle with chains, attack Laurel and look menacing.  I think she accomplished all that.  Laurel, on the other hand, is written like a person many crayons short of a full Crayola box.  Same writers, same scene, 2 characters done well, 1 done poorly

 

I'd prefer Option 1 but I think it's either 2 or 3.

[statsgirl]

At this point, I think it's #2.  Laurel's now the Black Canary (AK said that that's why people were impatient before), she's got her Canary Cry and she's a full member of the team.  What's the problem?

 

However, I think there are other characters they prefer to write for and that's why she sometimes gets short shrift.  Also, they're not quite sure what to write for her.  They made her the Black Canary to honor her sister, and people got upset at the "light inside you" line.  Now she's bringing Sara back in spite of terrible odds so why aren't we all cheering her on?

[bijoux]

The arm crossing thing bugs me too and I have no idea if it's a director's choice or an actor's.  But the body language of crossed arms is negative and closed.  Also, I found Laurel's attitude toward Oliver throughout and then when Lance showed up in the lair to be condescending.  Why would she be this way?

 

She's always been this way. I know because I recall finding her sense of entitlement wierd back in season 1, since I would have expected that from the Queens (well, ok, more Thea after Oliver had gone through hell) and/or Tommy since they all grew up privileged. Yet I found none of that in them. Laurel's actually a pretty consistent character. She's not a character I like, but she's consistent in the things I dislike about her.

[KirkB]

Yeah, I don't see Laurel as getting worse. She's pretty much always been this way. Angry, controlling and entitled. If anything HAS changed it's that she's being a bit more open about it. She used to fume and eventually explode, now she just gets in their face at the beginning and points out what everyone is doing wrong and how they need to do better so it works for her. Like it or not consistency has always been one of her more...well, consistent traits.

[bethy]

Yeah, I don't see Laurel as getting worse. She's pretty much always been this way. Angry, controlling and entitled. If anything HAS changed it's that she's being a bit more open about it. She used to fume and eventually explode, now she just gets in their face at the beginning and points out what everyone is doing wrong and how they need to do better so it works for her. Like it or not consistency has always been one of her more...well, consistent traits.

But... But... She has a light! She's always been trying to save the world! She knows people in their bones! And can see their souls!

[arjumand]

I rewatched the pilot and 1x02 today and I was pretty shocked that Katie Cassidy did much better than she is doing now. She's no Meryl Streep and Laurel was all over the place, but I felt her acting was much more natural and there was, dare I say it, some nuance. Like when Tommy questions her presence at the groundbreaking ceremony for applied sciences. And she's all, "Is that jealousy?" After he sort of nixes that there is a flash of disappointment. Blink and you'll miss it but it's there. Was KC trying more when she was more central to the show?

 

I've said this for what seems like forever, but is probably only since the beginning of season 2 - it gets worse when I compare KC's performance as Ruby in Supernatural.

 

I'm also really disappointed with Laurel's fighting style as the Black Canary - specifically, the lack of legwork, which should be her go-to style with her height. Or is it a comic-books thing I'm not aware of?

 

It really stood out, for me, in the hallway fight when she was ambushed without any weapons. I mean, I'm not an expert in martial arts, but I did some research for fanfic, and one thing that struck me was that women have more strength in their lower bodies than upper, and should capitalize on that when fighting.

 

So what does Laurel do? Throw a couple of ineffective punches and try to immobilize a guy who obviously is stronger than her because she's not super-powered. Ugh. The bit where he was on his knees was perfect for her to deliver a kick to his chin and break his jaw, but she lets him get up! I've done some judo in my teens, and that throw she tries to do - that's a short person's goto move, not someone as tall as she is, at least with those heels on! She should have been trying for a sweep - or rather, she shouldn't have let him get up at all. Even if she had to lose that fight, someone could have come from behind and tased her.

 

I don't know it it's better or worse when she's in costume - she keeps relying on her Canary Cry when she knows it can be neutralized. I mean, it was cool that she changed the frequency, but is that all she did? What if the bad guys know how to change the frequency too? The first time she fought the corrupt cops, I doubt even one of her punches connected after her Cry failed, and that's terrible. She's been doing this for a while now - she should be at the top of her game. This is just weak, IMO.

 

Which raises the question - is she being written this way? I know that most of the time it's her fight double doing the work, so why can't the writers make her a better fighter? Look at Thea - she consistently uses her lower body and does very well.

Edited October 30, 2015 by arjumand

[KirkB]

I think Amell does as much of the fighting as he can. I don't know about Ramsey. But from what I have seen most of Holland and Cassidy's fights seem to be from their fight doubles. Which is why Thea tends to be so bad ass in spite of being small. It doesn't, however, explain why Laurel even now seems to have as much trouble as she did early on, even though she ought to be much better. This last fight is a bit of an exception since the cops had equipment specifically designed to counteract them, no one was doing well. But since KC isn't doing much if any of the fighting, why ISN'T she an uber badass since that seems to be what the show runners and Cassidy herself believe. It's bizarre.

[Sakura12]

Laurel has pretty much always been a delusional idiot, but they then they always seem to take it twenty steps over the deep end with her. Not telling her father that Sara died right away, understandable. Dressing up as her sister and using her voice to make her father think Sara's still alive, DEEP END. Wanting to bring her sister back to life, understandable. Actually digging up her body and throwing her in mystical waters that no one was even sure if it would work or what would come out of it, DEEP END.

 

This is how Laurel's decision making goes.

 

Oliver: "Laurel, no!"

Quentin: "Laurel, no!"

Tommy: "Laurel, no!"

Malcolm: "Laurel, no!"

Laurel: Fingers in her ears. "lalala, Not listening"

 

I think someone compared Laurel to Wreck It Ralph. "I'm gonna wreck it!"

Edited October 31, 2015 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

I'm sorry, but the Canary Cry just looks stupid (no matter who does it).  Maybe it works great in the comics, but for the tv show, they should've just had Laurel use Sara's sonic device...

 

(source)

Edited November 1, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

[KirkB]

It definitely works better on paper (the comics) than in real life. She WAS using Sara's machines, just like she was using her costume, but I guess they wanted Laurel to be more like the real (again, comics) Black Canary. I think the only way they can minimize the ridiculousness of the effect is to shoot her from the side or the back whenever she's doing it. You still hear the cry and see the power but you don't have to gaze into KC's wide open mouth.

Edited November 1, 2015 by KirkB

[tarotx]

I think KC needs to be more like a wild animal in way she holds her body and it would work better. Only then will the back and side shot work (though still would looked unnatural from a front view). Right now I don't even know why the CC is in play. Sara's Canary bombs were a sonic flash bomb and worked well. I loved them. Laurel needs to ditch the CC or it needs to become real. It's a pointless meta skill but at least it would be "natural" so having her open her month would feel natural.

Edited November 2, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

I also think a way it would work if KC just pushed a button or something. If her delivery were more stealth it wouldn't be as easy to stop. From a logistical stand point, with her mouth gapping open, every criminal knows who to silence. The audience knows its her thing, I don't need to see her open her mouth or pop a squat everytime she wants to take down a bad guy. I guess it might be the only stunt KC really excels at, which is likely why it gets the most screentime.

 

But honestly, its probably always going to look dumb. No sense in trying to make it look better. CL's fighting style kicked ass, she really didn't need a Canary Cry. KC's fighting style not so much, she needs something to offer to the team and it certainly isn't her fighting skills.

 

Plus in 6 months maybe this conversation will be silenced (fingers crossed).

[KirkB]

In the comics the Canary Cry is a metahuman ability and she HAS to open her mouth and make the noise. She can't do it otherwise. Here, it has nothing to do with her mouth, it comes from that thing around her neck. Theoretically, there is no reason she can't hold it in her hand and point it. What they really need to do is find a way for KC to articulate the fact she is doing the cry without looking like she's trying to unhinge her jaw. Since it's the device and not her lungs or mouth I don't see why just a slight parting of the lips wouldn't suffice. It seems to me the whole thing is designed to focus attention on her, rather than actually accomplish much of anything in a fight.

[Sakura12]

This looks better than that pic above. It also looked much more powerful than what Laurel's been able to do with it. That took down at least 20 people and all the glass in the room. Plus Sara also used it as a flash bomb to get away from Oliver. 

Laurel should've kept it. Sara's a BAMF without it. 

[Genki]

Teen Wolf managed to do a better job with the "Banshee" scream for Lydia IMO. It's I think because Lydia is physically doing something at the same time, the scream is giving more power to her kicks and blows when she connects them. I prefer this method than the stand, pose and scream which Arrow is using.

 

 

Starts form 3:42 if you don't want to watch the whole scene.

 

For comparison sake here is the Birds of Prey Version 3:00

 

 

and and the cartoon version which uses the scream and pose method, but mostly it to shows the effect of the cry on everything else.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeDS35ztSWU

 

My favourite is still the Sara's subversion of the comic cannon.

[KirkB]

See, I think the Justice League animated version goes along with what I said. It works on paper and in animation, but a real person trying to do it is just going to look...silly if they focus on her face too much. She can do the cry and I think it would be okay if they didn't insist on close up framing her face the entire time and instead focused on the damage it's doing.

[Starfish35]

Aren't the Canary Cry bombs/grenades that Sara used somewhat canon, though? Granted, I'm not a comics reader, but I thought that Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics used a device like that for a while when she lost her cry.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Canary_Cry_Bomb/Gallery

[Sakura12]

What I don't get is Laurel was all proud to change the frequency to take down one person, one. While Sara's took down 20 people and shattered all the glass in the vicinity and could use it as a flash bomb to escape.  She could also throw it in the room ahead of time and proceed to knock the rest out. Laurel has to stop, pose and scream making her an easy target to attack from behind or give them time to prepare something to neutralize it. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[kismet]

See, I think the Justice League animated version goes along with what I said. It works on paper and in animation, but a real person trying to do it is just going to look...silly if they focus on her face too much. She can do the cry and I think it would be okay if they didn't insist on close up framing her face the entire time and instead focused on the damage it's doing.

It could work if they CGId the soundwaves, but is it worth the budgetary expense? That would at least show how it as powerful, since we really can't actually make it that loud on film. I also thought in 401 when Dig put in ear plugs was also a good way to show, hey this is a loud scream and important fighting tactic to add to the team's arsenal.

 

How they do it now is just a bad way that I think its supposed to be a homage to the comics. But fails because its not a real meta human power, so the mouth is kind of unnecessary. Also the way they film it just makes it look even more silly. Its a combined failure of acting, directing and editing.

[Starfish35]

I really think Sara's was the better one, but they had to cook up something different for Laurel because they already gave it to Sara.

[Delphi]

Aren't the Canary Cry bombs/grenades that Sara used somewhat canon, though? Granted, I'm not a comics reader, but I thought that Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics used a device like that for a while when she lost her cry.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Canary_Cry_Bomb/Gallery

Indeed, Oracle made them for her and they worked much like Sara's until Dinah was placed into the lazurus pit.

If they wanted to do the cry, they should have just made Laurel a metahuman. It's not like Dinah in the comics uses her cry all that much anyways. Only on emergencies.

[Chaser]

This is random, but can you picture the Canary Cry on helium? I did and laughed for like 5 mins.

Edited November 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

When the Cry actually worked it pushed one guy back.  Approximately equal to kicking said guy.  WOW, what an AMAZING ABILITY.

[EmeraldArcher]

Personally, I think the CC is PERFECT for LL/BC--her weapon is to open her mouth and make an annoying noise. Sounds about right to me.

[KirkB]

Heh. Hmm...you make a fair point EmeraldArcher. If I think of the CC just as Laurel screaming at people to stop, it makes perfect sense.

Edited November 2, 2015 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

I really think Sara's was the better one, but they had to cook up something different for Laurel because they already gave it to Sara.

You can pretty much say that about everything that makes Laurel the Black Canary.

 

But as a lawyer, she can kick ass.

[Sakura12]

Does she really? I don't remember her winning too many cases. And the only reason she still has a job was because she blackmailed her boss and then the boss died. Then there is the fact that she wears fingerless gloves while being a vigilante.

Those all seem to point to fail as a lawyer to me.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I think she's a terrible lawyer too. :/.

[KenyaJ]

But as a lawyer, she can kick ass.

 

As a lawyer, I categorically reject that statement. In her somewhat defense, there are very few television lawyers who kick ass.

[Nanrad]

Oddly enough, I disliked Dinah/Laurel in Birds of Prey. lol. I didn't even make the connection until after my dislike of Laurel fully blossomed.

 

ETA: that may seem random, but I thought about it as I looked at the BoP clip.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Nanrad

[BkWurm1]

Oddly enough, I disliked Dinah/Laurel in Birds of Prey. lol. I didn't even make the connection until after my dislike of Laurel fully blossomed.

 

ETA: that may seem random, but I thought about it as I looked at the BoP clip.

I hated her too.  I didn't want to but she just annoyed the crap out of me.  I blamed the actress's mannerisms for a long time but I saw her in another show and loved her so I'm back to blaming the writing.  Funny thing is until after her mother randomly showed up, I had no clue that the teenager was supposed to grow up to be Black Canary.  I still have a disconnect since wasn't her skills telekinetic stuff?  Show ended too soon to find out.  I was always in it for Barbara Gordon though so the rest were just people I put up with. 

[Starfish35]

Yeah, Dinah was the bratty teen character that I always find annoying. But oddly after seeing the actress play Tamsin on Lost Girl I found Dinah much more tolerable on rewatch. But I still preferred Barbara and Helena.

But yeah, she had touch telepathy and telekinesis powers though. And Huntress had feline metahuman abilities. And the Black Canary (Dinah's mother) was Carolyn Lance.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, Dinah was the bratty teen character that I always find annoying. But oddly after seeing the actress play Tamsin on Lost Girl I found Dinah much more tolerable on rewatch. But I still preferred Barbara and Helena.

 

Ha!  I actually loved Tamsin on Lost Girl.  I loved Barbara but Helena bored me to tears and it was clear that the show producers were trying to make her the star.  As a whole, I can't say I was surprised the show was cancelled.  I can say that Aunt Becky from Full House was a terrible choice to cast for BC.  Could.  Not.  Get.  Past. 

[Starfish35]

No that's what I meant. I loved Tamsin too. So somehow after seeing the actress as Tamsin, it softened my feelings about Dinah. *shrug*

[Delphi]

I thought Smallville did a poor job with Canary as well. The cgi cry was a bit better, but on the whole still not impressive. Dinah has had really bad luck in her live action portrayals.

Incidentally, I've noticed when I read comics now I use Caity's voice for Canary, similarly as I use Kevin Conroy and Dina Meyer's voices for Batman and Barbara Gordon, so that's interesting to me.

Eta: And honestly, in Birds of Prey by the end of the show I found Helena and Dinah much better. They really improved as time went on and after the network canceled it and they stopped interfering with everything.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Delphi

[BkWurm1]

Incidentally, I've noticed when I read comics now I use Caity's voice for Canary, similarly as I use Kevin Conroy and Dina Meyer's voices for Batman and Barbara Gordon, so that's interesting to me.

 

Kevin Conroy is my bat voice as well.  I think the cartoon version is the only Batman and Bruce Wayne I've actually liked.  I liked a lot of the Batman movies but almost always in spite of the actor that was cast as Batman. 

 

Eta: And honestly, in Birds of Prey by the end of the show I found Helena and Dinah much better. They really improved as time went on and after the network canceled it and they stopped interfering with everything.

 

It's been so long since I watched it (when it actually aired the first time).  I wonder what my reaction would be now. 

 

I was not a fan of how Smallville did Canary at first because the character didn't match the Justice League Unlimited version I'd been introduced to but I liked her for her by the end even if she did think Chloe would betray them. Tsk, tsk.   Bad form pretty bird. 

 

I think live action versions of the character suffer because everyone knows that the Black Canary is supposed to be this kick ass fighter and so they try to project that into an emotional chip on her shoulder. (Hello Laurel)  Make her strong by making her kind of mean or cold.  On Smallville they quickly let us see past her guard while on Arrow once we got past her guard there just seems to be more RBF and crossed arms.  That's why Sara as Canary just worked so well for me. 

 

Sara was strong on her own terms.  There was never a second that I didn't believe that she was an incredible fighter but she didn't need to hide the softness of her character when she wasn't fighting.  That contrast somehow never being at odds was probably what made me fall so hard for her character.  She didn't need to act tough to be tough. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Writing Wrongs]

Why did Laurel stop wearing the blonde wig?

[Sakura12]

Because she dyed her hair blonde. 

[Delphi]

Because she dyed her hair blonde.

So why isn't she wearing a brunette wig?

[Sakura12]

Because Comics has blonde hair. 

 

However I just go with Laurel's a dumbass that doesn't care about the whole secret identity thing. She's got finger less gloves to leave her finger prints everywhere, she's going to use her real hair as part of her costume and she's going to loudly say she's Black Canary in public places. 

[bethy]

Ugh. Laurel. Still.

[kismet]

In honor of LL's redemptive rehab episode this week - Can we please rename the title of this thread -

 

"Laurel Lance - What about meee?"

 

Pretty please :) It's so perfect for her whole character.

[Carrie Ann]

But seriously, has anyone considered--while Sara is running around the city alone, killing people, missing her soul; while Thea lies in a hospital bed after nearly being killed herself--has ANYONE stopped to consider the REAL victim? Has anyone stopped to consider how LAUREL feels?!

[Angel12d]

But seriously, has anyone considered--while Sara is running around the city alone, killing people, missing her soul; while Thea lies in a hospital bed after nearly being killed herself--has ANYONE stopped to consider the REAL victim? Has anyone stopped to consider how LAUREL feels?!

 

Laurel has. Because that's all she does.

[Cerulean Blue]

I'm really intrigued by the writers' goal for Laurel in this episode. I've seen it referred to as an attempt to rehabilitate the character, but the writers couldn't have really thought that the way to make Laurel more likable/sympathetic was to make her even more self-centered and self-important, right? The whole "what about me?" thing when she's standing outside the hospital room where Oliver's sister is seriously injured as a result of Laurel's actions (which every other character told her were not good actions) was both hilarious and completely bizarre. Just...how would that scene garner any sympathy for Laurel? She is literally the least victimized person in the Queen-Lance storyline at this point. 

 

And then her getting angry at Oliver for not seeing her as an equal. Why in the world should Oliver view her as an equal and why would viewers think he should? And the scene where Laurel's supposed to be keeping watch outside of Thea's hospital room and then tries to have another "what about me?" heart-to-heart with Oliver at the exact moment that her brought-back-from-the-dead sister is once again trying to kill Thea was completely insane as it just highlighted Laurel's self-centeredness and her complete ineffectualness as a person (let alone a "hero" the audience should root for).

 

It just seems like such a strange approach to take to a character that already has likability problems and who seems like a lesser version of almost every other character on the show--she's a lesser Black Canary than Sara, a lesser new superhero than Thea, a less skilled fighter than Oliver and Diggle, a less successful romantic partner than Felicity, a less narratively relevant Lance than Quentin. Considering she is not the equal of any of these characters, why did the writers have her voice an explicit request to be treated like an equal? To me, it just highlighted that Laurel is inferior to all of the other characters on the show. 

 

It's just such a strange narrative choice that this episode was how the writers chose to rehab her as a character. I mean, I guess I'm convinced that Oliver at least tolerates her now, but I actually like her even less than I did before. Which is saying something because I've spent the entire run of the show thinking Laurel was the literal worst. But, somehow, the writers have managed to make her even more intolerable than she was before. 

[VCRTracking]

Okay, NOW I get the hate.

Edited November 5, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Sakura12]

Stop trying to make Laurel happen, show!

 

I still love seeing "Laurel's had it worse than Sara" because on top of her previous traumas, Sara can now add being dead and a zombie to her list. But Laurel's the real victim in all of this. Didn't we see how much this hurt her? Because she was attacked by a zombie because she happened to look like someone else, she was murdered for being a street thug at the wrong place at the wrong time, and she was attacked for hurting the zombie. Oh, wait none of that was her. 

 

She also helped save the day from her mistake. Oh, wait that was Oliver calling up Constantine. 

 

Laurel basically did nothing but get her ass beat twice by zombie Sara, then gets forgiven for it and everyone wants to be her best friend. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[kes0704]

Don't forget Laurel's great line at the end of the episode where she talks about how Oliver helped HER save Sara's soul. No Laurel, you did next to nothing to help Sara and you weren't even the first person to volunteer for the vision quest, Thea was.

I've never disliked a character who is supposed to be one of the heroes as much as I do Laurel.

[morakot]

I didn't see her volunteering for the vision quest. I saw standing there until Constantine and Oliver brought her forward, and Oliver asked her to trust him.